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Is The Debt Still Worth The Degree?

Tyler Durden's picture


College graduates are twice as likely to find employment... but at what cost?




Source: via CreditGuard


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Fri, 10/18/2013 - 20:59 | 4070896 unrulian
unrulian's picture

Get a trade

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:20 | 4070948 Croesus
Croesus's picture

College is just another way for banks to get a debt-yoke on peoples' necks. Better off learning a trade, or going the self-employment route. 


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:37 | 4070971 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Curious to see AK in the list. I am actually getting my second BS (accounting) at the state university right now. Work helps with some of the cost and it is directly applicable to my job, so it penciled out for me.

Payin' cash all the way though!

If anyone is an accountant type and not opposed to Alaska, there is a chronic shortage here. Cost of livin' ain't cheap, but it is beautiful country. And given that AK is 20% of the surface area of the US in total, there are a range of climates, a fact many people skip right over.



Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:05 | 4071035 markmotive
markmotive's picture

Why pay for the education when you can get it for free? You're just paying for a piece of paper and an asinine experience with corporate sheep (if you're doing an MBA).


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:35 | 4071206 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

I completely understand where you are coming from. In fact, I am very well read across a range of subjects. My experiences is that unless you have straight up 100% match work experience, employers don't care.

Given my background and my current employment situation, this makes dollar sense. I researched salaries and jobs if I get a boot in three, five, or ten years. I like where I am and want to stay long term, but if it doesn't work out, I need to get paid. A second BS is almost an insurance policy for my situation.

I roll with the math.



Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:34 | 4071496 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but if you're on this site, why are you talking about a better salary 3, 5, or 10 years down the road? At the ten year mark, instead of getting 50,000 peices of toilet paper, you will receive 80-100,000. I'm guessing you don't believe in the whole economic collapse talk.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:35 | 4071498 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Keep in mind that you cannot default on Student Loan debt, the IRS will collect at any cost.

Too, I believe Tyler storied this a few moths back:

Don't get in the path of automation. These corporations are fucking ruthless.


Sat, 10/19/2013 - 16:03 | 4072134 mkkby
mkkby's picture

If any of you bothered to read the infographic, college still pays off handsomely.  You average $800k additional earnings for $30k debt over a lifetime.

The degreed idiots serving coffee mostly have useless degrees.  If you invest smart in your education, it still pays off very well.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 11:47 | 4071733 monad
monad's picture

If you're rolling with the numbers an MBA with an emphasis on finance is good for a management slot everywhere, so I would go for that. A sequential Bx is like playing with your food. Networking with doctors is illuminating.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 05:11 | 4071381 MeMadMax
MeMadMax's picture

Your cost of living can't even begin to touch the cost of living in California or New York. 


Sat, 10/19/2013 - 07:41 | 4071454 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

Cold, colder and so cold your nipples freeze and fall off. No thanks! I wish you luck though.

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 00:15 | 4072920 yofish
yofish's picture
Welcome to AK (if that's the case). True about the cost of living but there are ways to obviate that somewhat. It is still a land of opportunity and friendly to the self employed. You are correct about accounting being a good trade, that's because, in part,  so much of AK employment is government or quasi-government. On a hunt for a place to land that was far away from the shit-hole SOCAL I was raised in, I ended up here in 1969. Far and away the best accident in my life. Pay no heed to the ZH gibberish machines that paint all with one size brush and in one color. You are making a fine choice. My daughter graduated from UAF with no debt and an engineering degree in 4 yrs., has a great job and numerous solid friends. As much as the ZH intelligentsia sees the demise of government a certainty, take that as a contrarian indication. They won't even hear your paying cash. Oh yeah, bitchez!  
Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:43 | 4070987 rationaldemocracy
rationaldemocracy's picture

Lol..getting a trade (good old GOP advice) in a world where almost everything is being automated and almost every job is being made redundant due to technology..

Nice thinking there old and blind are you again?



Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:50 | 4071001 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

Somebody's got to keep the robots running!

How do you automate steel erection? Framing? Laying pipe? Building big shit? Fixing equipment? Welding?

Everything that can be automated isn't every thing.

Shit, I'm not a union supporter, but there will always be a need for skilled tradesman, union or not.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:55 | 4071014 rationaldemocracy
rationaldemocracy's picture

Most of what you wrote will be automated soon (welding especially)

There are hundreds of thousands of machinists either out of work or making 9 dollars an hour with 30 years of experience...all made redundant by CNC machines.



Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:02 | 4071026 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

If they're intelligent enough to have been a machinist, they should be able to learn a new skill, like CAD/CAM, programming, etc.

Evolve or die.

The computers and robots don't run themselves. Yet. (HF algos excepted)

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:13 | 4071168 pitz
pitz's picture

Its a matter of numbers.  The fancy machinery may very well replace 4 machinists with 1 machinst and a programmer.  The other two machinists, what happens to them?  Since we haven't been expanding manufacturing output in a meaningful way, those people are laid off and left to die on welfare or disability. 

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:32 | 4071205 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

The other two? Go back to college, right? Lol

Whether they know it or not, the other two machinist have been freed from their menial, obsolete lives. the day after they got fired would be the most beautiful day of their lives. Their breakfast would taste better than anything you or I ever had.

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:38 | 4071211 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

I was a machinist in the army. I am a programmer now. Soon to be an accountant programmer.

Follow the money!



Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:26 | 4071277 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

I was once a farmer in a small village, I am a programmer now. Soon to be an accountant programmer.

Follow the outsourcing!

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 00:18 | 4072925 yofish
yofish's picture

Clever and stupid all at once! The ZH way! You have no understanding of where this young man is and what he's trying to do. Location does make a difference.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:10 | 4071504 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Hey 86,
"The computers and robots don't run themselves."

You're missing the point. One offshore Indian writes one program that controls one machine that replaced 100 workers each of those workers had 3 babies.

Now what?

Wall St mandates efficiency in a world with explosive population growth.

The offshore Indian does not give 2-shits about the delicate balance of the American economy. That is why we need to point that HAARP machine right over into that general direction and level that shithole to zero.


Sun, 10/20/2013 - 00:21 | 4072928 yofish
yofish's picture

Sorry, Wall Sreet does not mandate efficiency - you do by shopping at Wally World. 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 04:03 | 4071360 Ourrulersknowbest
Ourrulersknowbest's picture

Hey dipshit,I am a high precision toolmaker.
Who the fuck do you think uses cnc machines?
Who builds these machines.
Shit has to be made.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:36 | 4071499 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

I thought rich people magically make them appear out of thin air. /sarcasm.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:04 | 4071534 spinone
spinone's picture

Yes, but the CNC machine you make works twice as fast as a man, all day and all night.  And what happens when you make the CNC machine that makes CNC machines.  There goes your job too.

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 00:23 | 4072929 yofish
yofish's picture

A CNC lathe that only worked twice as fast a human would be junked.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 04:52 | 4071372 Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture

Do robot plumbers have butt cracks?

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 06:59 | 4071423 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

That'd make a great bumper sticker.

And yes, I know something about butt cracks.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 21:28 | 4071673 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

Seriously, though, Robots Will Steal Your Job, But That's OK — — because the great majority of the world's labor, if not slavery or its equivalent, is alienated to one degree or another, meaning that it is drudgery suffered through for the sole purpose of ekeing out a living.

Humanity, then, if it is ever to begin fulfilling its all but limitless potential, must reach the point where all of its labors are essentially labors of love, i.e., you are free, in mythologist Joseph Campbell's words, to "follow your bliss."

As this is the promise of robotics — even if the merger of man and machine renders humanity as we know it extinct — it must be pursued with vigor, as in fact it is.

Do dangers lurk? Of course. But a world tumbling headlong toward the evolutionary cul-de-sac of statism is vastly more dangerous. Thus, as statism plays itself out as a consequence of its internal contradictions, coercion being inimical to the free and voluntary cooperation that is the heart of the social enterprise, we must confront the pain and suffering to come for what it is: the death of an inherently antisocial paradigm and the birth of a socially vibrant, fully individuated, and ever-evolving one.

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 00:26 | 4072934 yofish
yofish's picture

Do you have any idea what the fuck you are talking about? 

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 14:58 | 4073847 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

Ah, life inside the box. Funny how, when you get used to the dark, you can't stand the light.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 14:11 | 4071949 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Wrong, genius. You obviously havent been around the world of real, physical things. For one, there's a world of difference between the kind of welding that takes place in a production line, and that needed for complex maintenance work.

As for college, just about the only undergrad biz degree that might be worth something I suppose, is for accounting. Most other fields you can learn on the job and most biz grads will tell you that little that they 'learned' in college had any use on the job. I have a college degree but would probably learn a trade today - something that can't be off-shored that people can't do without. Like a plumber. If the toilet backs up, most people don't put off spending the money.

In a nation filled with 'leaders' intent on destroying the American middle class for their vision of globalism, nothing is certain. They could open the borders to millions of illegals (making them 'legal'). Then, even the plumber gig might not be so certain.

The plan is to bust people, make them dependent. Also scare them with all sorts of purported internal and external 'threats' that they need 'protection' from.  Then they are compliant. Perfect clueless slaves.

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 00:29 | 4072939 yofish
yofish's picture

I'm with you until the unfortunate last paragraph. 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 02:00 | 4071302 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

I was able to go to school from my Parants basement, on the computer and get deul degrees! 6 year, only 79,000 USD debt! First degree in criminology, second phrenology! I come crime seen, read bump on corpses haed, and know who dunnit! Same Day! With valuable degrees the skys the limet! As always, Thanks You very much Univercity of Pheonics!!

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 02:56 | 4071331 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

I bet you have lots of phrens on Facebook.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:41 | 4071115 mrpxsytin
mrpxsytin's picture

Couldn't agree more! 

A college degree is the way of the future. But who said that everyone can make it work for them? Hard working students graduating with solid marks in fields with future demand will end up being the new middle class. But then again, they will need someone to plunge their toilets out when they get clogged. So I suppose it might be a good thing to become a plumber too... 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:13 | 4071235 varnelius
varnelius's picture

Why?  Because of Common Core, and being taught that 2+2=5 is correct if you are really really sure?

I'm only in my early 30s but the ineptitude of mathmatical acumen demonstrated by the latest generation of cashiers is absoutely astounding.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:58 | 4071257 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Common Core does not allow 2+2 to equal five.  Rather, they insist that everybody explain how they got their answer.  That is, the emphasis is on learning to think.  The one who cannot explain how they arrived at "4" as the answer is in need of help learning to think as much as the one who can explain how they arrived at "5".

I applaud the effort to help kids learn how to think, but so much of early math is nothing more than rote memorization.  Hopefully Common Core will not deny them that useful bit of education.  At a minimum, parents can provide their children with that opportunity for rote memorization outside of Common Core if necessary.

Then there is always Kahn Academy for the other stuff.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:15 | 4071271 rationaldemocracy
rationaldemocracy's picture

common core is actually influnced by the old soviet education system..which is a good thing



Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:39 | 4071502 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

True story, when I was learning algebra I figured out how to solve problems not using the formula provided to me. The teacher would not give me credit, because I did not follow the formula she gave me.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 14:50 | 4072022 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Bobbyrig:  "True story, when I was learning algebra I figured out how to solve problems not using the formula provided to me. The teacher would not give me credit, because I did not follow the formula she gave me. "

That doesnt surprise me at all. I helped a relatives teenagers with some of their advanced algebra homework. I showed them a simplier way to do the problems and why the method worked. The next day their 'teacher' wrote them a note saying that they wouldnt get credit unless they re-did the problems 'the way theyre done in the book'. The kids said they didnt want to know why the methods worked, but to  'just get it over with'.

They go to one of the top rated public high schools in the state. They get good grades - one kid with a B+ average the other with mainly As.  I was shocked at the poor quality of their thinking, lack of creativity, and extremely low quality writing skills.  I'd hate to see what bad students from a bad school produce. The current American public 'education' system is a curse. (And on purpose.)

But they do spend multi millions on new buildings and sports facilities.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 14:31 | 4071994 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Common Core teaches kids how to think, huh ?  Does it teach them logic, and especially to recognize logical fallacies ? Does Common Core teach them how to break down the news they encounter in newspapers, on t.v., on the internet ?  Does Common Core encourage kids to break down the global warming issue and examine the pros and cons of purported man-made causes for it, and exmaine if its a 'problem' at all ? Do they examine politcians promises versus their actual actions and the results of that ? (Or if there is any real difference between the so-called 'opposing political parties' when it comes to results ?  Do they examine the nature of money, banking, and the Federal Reserve ?  Do they think about the individualistic foundations of the country and how education went from being individual based to being taken over by local districts and then dominated by the central government ? 

Instead they focus on teaching kids why 2+2 = 4  ?  Nothing wrong with knowing this, but it can be argued that they don't teach real thinking that matters at all.  Research on the history & nature of public education illustrates that this is the underlying purpose of such programs.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 03:16 | 4071341 franciscopendergrass
franciscopendergrass's picture

MDB, is that you?

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 05:54 | 4071394 Wile-E-Coyote
Wile-E-Coyote's picture

You peddle a falacy, the trades will be around along time before they are taken over by machines.

The trades have been hit hard in this depression, but they are slowly coming back, but there is a way to go.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:46 | 4071511 unrulian
unrulian's picture


if you believe there will be a crash of the system, automation will soon be redundant and the guys that can fix your shitter will be the new technologists. BTW, you'll probably have to let your wife "pay" him to cover the bill

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:26 | 4071550 rationaldemocracy
rationaldemocracy's picture



Collapse or no collapse 5 years from now I bet all the people that went into the trades are gonna be sorry they ever signed to pull shit out of my toilet.

That's the bottom line, can you dig it?

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 23:52 | 4072892 yofish
yofish's picture

You been readin' Mish again.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:02 | 4071027 rationaldemocracy
rationaldemocracy's picture

Actually I got suckered into your type of thinking so I apologize for my comment.

Some people just do not excel in Academia and for that reason those young, violent (stupid) sons of (now layed off) blue collar workers should be given a chance to do something constructive with their hands so that both their intellectual and financial needs are met. A trade is the perfect outlet for them..even if they find themselves pulling crap out of my toilet for a living.

I just don't advice anyone who is capable of getting a degree to go into the trades. that's all.


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:24 | 4071078 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

It might smell like shit to you, but to others it smells like money. I know a plumber (who still rods lines when needed), pushing $120k/year in a blue collar area. Sure, another plumber probably pulls in $35k unclogging toilets, but never cared to learn other skills so he'll be stuck cleaning your toilet. He'd fail just as hard at college, but wind up with $50k+ in debt that he will never pay off.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:48 | 4071222 mrpxsytin
mrpxsytin's picture

$120k/year? YAWN. Wake me up when it's worth my time. What was the article here on ZH saying about the Goldman median salary? $380k? I bet everyone earning those bucks has a college qualification. You friend will be working his ass off day in and day out (often being called up at odd hours) to earn a paltry $120k. It's peanuts man. That's how out of date your thinking is. You still think than $120k is a good income. 

Here in Australia college grads fresh out of university are earning over 100k salaries. To advise someone to get a trade over getting a degree is madness. Yes, if they clearly don't have an aptitude for study then a trade is a good option. But if they can get solid marks in a solid field then I'd be encouraging them to take that option 11 times out of 10. 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:29 | 4071244 pitz
pitz's picture

"college grads fresh out of university are earning over 100k salaries."

In what professions?  Even fresh engineering grads aren't pulling that sort of money in Australia, and the business grads sure as heck aren't either. 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:53 | 4071254 mrpxsytin
mrpxsytin's picture

Ofcrouse not every graduate will be earning 100k plus. but I can guarantee that the good ones will be. Not only are they more attractive to employers, but they also know their worth so they can negotiate higher salaries. We're not talking about the dumb masses here. We're talking about what the best options are for capable and hardworking young people. 

Check out some anecdotal evidence from mid 2012:

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:21 | 4071545 spinone
spinone's picture

Not in the USA.  They just up the quota for more H1B visas, and get some more Indian and Chinese engineers.


Gotta keep those wages and taxes low for the Corporations, so they can be "job creators", right?

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:42 | 4071249 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Aw shit man, you need to stop driving a car. You can't use a windshield. Clearly, you prefer your rearview.

Gonna get someone hurt ...



Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:57 | 4071260 mrpxsytin
mrpxsytin's picture

Well actually, you've got a much greater chance of getting hurt performing your duties as a tradesman.

You say Australia's good times are over, yet you're also saying that Alaska's future is bright. What a hypocrite. Australia has everything Alaska has and a whole lot more. If Australia tanks Alaska definitely tanks. So get your story straight and be consistent. 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:55 | 4071300 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Well, TV does have a lot of shows that cover Alaska such as Ice Road Truckers, Alaska Real Estate, The Deadliest Catch, Sarah Palin's Alaska, The Alaska Experiment, Gold Rush, and so on.

So based on that evidence Alaska is a land of milk and honey.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:41 | 4071506 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

Australia is currently caught up in the China bubble along with Canada. Here is a hint: don't buy any more house than you could afford and when China goes bust hold on to your ass.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:52 | 4071519 unrulian
unrulian's picture

Yawn...if you believe the system could crash in the future those GS median salaries will get you linched whist snaking shit will get you paid and possibly laid

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 23:06 | 4072840 El Tuco
El Tuco's picture

my buddy married a chick from australia and moved there, he was a drywaller and hung board for living back home. started a small company doing drywall and slowly expanded things. its been about 15 years and he don't get dirty anymore. just counts all the money he's making. pretty good for a guy who hung board. a trade is like anything else, you can let it become a job or you can make it a business. it's all up to the guy.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:53 | 4071299 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Get a trade

Got it. Long Apple, short gold!

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:00 | 4070898 Suisse
Suisse's picture

They're more likely to find employment, but that employment is likely to be part time work a GED holder could do.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:13 | 4070928 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

Walk into any restaurant in NYC and ask the waitstaff where they studied.  Answers may surprise....

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:41 | 4070983 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Way back, I applied for law school and wasn't accepted. I had gone through a Kappler program to study for the LSAT. About the time that all washed out, I forwarded a write up I found on lawyers, placement, and salaries to my "teacher".

The light bulb was sort of going off, but at a later date I was very glad I got declined. Many universities game these sorts of stats seven ways to Sunday. Some even go so far as to hire grads to work certain jobs and then lay them off, to fluff their "grads hired" numbers.

There are about ten jobs, in broad terms, that are worth the money spent, the rest aren't at these prices. As I understand it, this is stuff like hard core nursing (not the tech stuff), petro engy, accounting, comp sci, and all the other crap most people can't do even if they trained for it.



Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:06 | 4070900 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

I started asking that question in 1990 when I graduated college.  In my case, I could have saved the money, put a fake degree on my resume and done just as well.  Nobody even bothered to call for my transcripts for any of the positions I have ever held.

Shit, didn't Yahoo (or one of those tech companies) hire a new president a few years back who had been passing off his padded resume, apprently his whole career, until some internet sleuths (not Yahoo's own HR department) found out he was lying?


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:04 | 4070908 stinkhammer
stinkhammer's picture

you want fries with that?

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:18 | 4070939 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Why, yes.  Yes, I do.

Such a nice young man.  He'll go far.  All the way to assistant manager by the time he's 40.  Still earning $9/hr., but such RESPONSIBILITY he'll have!  His parents will be proud of him.  They'll walk down the stairs into their basement every night and tell him so.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:06 | 4070910 richsob
richsob's picture

Cry me a river.  I graduated in 1970 owing $5000.  That is equivalent to $30,000 today.  I paid off every penny over ten years.  Fuck these kids who don't think they should have to do the same thing.  And yes, I worked my ass off when I was going to school because my parents couldn't afford to help very much.  The rest I got covered with a scholarship because I had the discipline to make good grades.  Jeez I'm sick of reading these stories trying to make me feel sorry for anyone who actually has to invest in their future.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:18 | 4070940 duo
duo's picture

I'll bet you didn't buy a McMansion and a Range Rover right out of school, did you?  Or vacation in St. Bart's until you had your loans paid off?

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:21 | 4070949 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

There were jobs back then and the cost of living was cheaper.  You could work a minimum wage job and put yourself through college back then... not anymore. 

Most of the colllege grads today are in big trouble.  Just imagine the children just being born today... what is college going to cost then?... $500K for a MS degree?  Only very rich people will be able to afford that.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:38 | 4070975 Croesus
Croesus's picture

@ GrinandBearit: 


Kids going to school today, get saddled with a shitload of debt, and oftentimes the needs of the job market change just as they're graduating...the result?

High debt that can't be discharged, all for a degree that they can't use in the real a declining job market where the cost of living is increasing...

I refer back to my first post in this thread... 

Trades, "jobs that nobody wants", and self-employment are the only way to go, imo. 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:22 | 4071239 varnelius
varnelius's picture

Actlually you have this wrong.  What happens when the next financial crisis hits, and the USD is thrown under a bus?  You put an end to Pell grants and Federal loans.

Class sizes that are currently 100 will drop to 2.  Colleges will be closing in wholesale, unless those prices are massivly decreased.

If your rich, you'll be dropping that $500k to send your kid to some ritzy college in Beijing.  For the rest of us...  "and its gone."

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:51 | 4071518 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

I think it will be more like Europe, there will be heavily subsidized state schools, but every private college that is not well known and close to ivy league calibur will go out of business (good riddance). The end result will be the same as what you say though, a lot less college graduates.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:25 | 4071548 spinone
spinone's picture

You're assuming people who will be doing technical work in the USA will be educated in the USA.  Not true, they will just import more H1B Visa workers, who got their engineering, math or science degree in India or China.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:33 | 4071099 pitz
pitz's picture

You had the raging inflation of the 1970s, and wage inflation to help you out. 

While contemporary grads generally have nothing of the sort. 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:34 | 4071284 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Tell me about it. I used to mine coal with my fists back in the 60s to pay for college when everyone else was smoking dope. Scholarships were thrown at my feet because I was the embodiment of the American dream. I, too am tired of people saying they can't make it, and the current economy is no excuse because the economy today was the same back then. And everybody who says differently is a fucking slacker.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:48 | 4071515 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

Mined coal with your god your hands must be indestructible.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:01 | 4071530 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

If you believe in the American dream anything is possible.

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 00:42 | 4072947 yofish
yofish's picture

I call bullshit. Drop the drama, John Henry. All of us from that era have war stories about our superiority - if we're lame enough to use them.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 07:11 | 4071429 rtalcott
rtalcott's picture

Things were MUCH easier then.  I graduated in 1974....we were on the quarter system and tuition, room & board were maybe $600/quarter...would drive a truck for North American over the summer and take home maybe $5k...I graduated with a nice Dynaco stereo and money in the bank!  It was easy to do's totally 'effed up now.  

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 19:07 | 4072404 skipjack
skipjack's picture

I graduated from Duke in '78 - my last year's room, board and tuition was $4300. I used to make $5k a summer working construction, so when I graduated I had enough money to buy a car and pay the security deposit on my apartment, no debt.


Tell me today where any kid can do the same ?

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:47 | 4071513 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

'Fuck these kids for not being Baby Boomers and having the world handed to them on silverp platter after my parents' generation demolished the Axis powers. Pay your ridiculous student debt (what's the going rate 6-7%?). You should have been born 20-30 years earlier before the American empire reached the final stages of death.'

God, I hate Baby Boomers. At least your whole generation has no retirement savings and will work themselves into an early grave saving us money on SS and medicare. Kindly GFY.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:24 | 4070912 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Welcome to GOOG, would you like some stock options with your E- Ticket?

   Come on, tell me me how wrong I am. I'll get g/long "Tesla" and "Google" glass if you can prove you're point. I'm your friend Junkster.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:07 | 4070913 Hedgetard55
Hedgetard55's picture

It gets worse from here. 

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:07 | 4070914 Newsboy
Newsboy's picture

Debt to degree ratios must be optimized on a case by case basis.

No easy solutions.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:09 | 4070917 World of Debt
World of Debt's picture

Maybe that's the next BUBBLE! It's a WORLD OF DEBT!! See the Hilarious Music Video below "WORLD OF DEBT":


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:16 | 4070936 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

They need to borrow money to pay their bills.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:39 | 4071287 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

If the debt clock is accurate the American citizen could just go to college using the $50,640 the government owes and forgive the government's debt in return.


Of course the colleges will raise prices accordingly, but it would still be amusing to see.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:19 | 4070946 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Here's the answer, from an expert, about whether a college degree is worthwhile:


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:19 | 4070947 MetalFillBoy
MetalFillBoy's picture

Well, it really does depend on what degree you get.  If you get a STEM degree, then the money borrowed is a investment.  The phrase "starving artist"  has a lot of truth to it.



Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:26 | 4070955 pitz
pitz's picture

Except that most STEM grads can't find jobs.  Especially over the past decade where over a million guest workers in STEM have been imported on H-1B visas primarily from India.  To suppress wages of STEM grads and basically dis-employ most STEM grads under the age of 35 (the last 1990s being the last big hiring binge of US STEM grads). 

Anecdotally I believe that high school dropouts have an easier time finding jobs than STEM grads.  As they're not considered 'overqualified' for the 'service' type jobs and construction jobs that have been created in the past decade.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:36 | 4070970 yogibear
yogibear's picture

STEM grads are passed over for H1Bs. These grads bust their but and load up on school loans to find those from India slam the door on them.


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:41 | 4070982 pitz
pitz's picture

Yup, only 1/3rd of the graduates from even some of the top schools like Cornell and UC Berkeley in the various STEM fields can find jobs according to the post-graduation surveys. 

The situation has become so ridiculous that even the top grads in the classes have difficulty obtaining responses to their resumes.  Not even given an audience to pitch their skills to the employers.  Professionalism in the Indian-dominated workforces has dropped dramatically.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:56 | 4071522 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

Exaclty and the whole time dickwads like billionaire Bill Gates and Intel complain about the lack of STEM graduates. It is all to provide cheaper labor. Modern day college advertisements are pretty much our version of the pamphlets from Grapes of Wraith telling people to go pick grapes in California.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:57 | 4071019 MetalFillBoy
MetalFillBoy's picture



My point was that I think one may have a better time getting a job to pay back their loans if they got a degree that provide some skills that could get a better paying job.  Last I checked, the top paying jobs out of school were almost all STEM related.  


Now, will all STEM grads get jobs?  No.  Will a higher percentage of STEM grads get jobs than some other type of degree??  I don't know, but  you seem to indicate they won't.  

Worth a read:



Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:40 | 4071289 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Well, the STEM grads aren't qualified because they're not as cheap as the H-1Bs.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 06:58 | 4071421 pitz
pitz's picture

You hit the nail on the head.  Things are so bad that the H-1B abusers don't even bother interviewing Americans any more, or even offering the jobs to them at the lower salary.  I'm sure plenty of engineers/STEM workers would gladly accept lower salaries instead of starving to death.  But that's not even an option for many.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:58 | 4071524 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

Why interview Americans when you have a bought out politically correct administration in office?

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 07:44 | 4071456 Snoopy the Economist
Snoopy the Economist's picture

"Except that most STEM grads can't find jobs"

Just where did you get this statistic? My son graduated with ENG degree 2 yrs ago and he told me all of his classmates found good jobs with exception to the few who did not do well. He make over 80K with bachelor degree.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:06 | 4071535 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Where did your son go to school if you don't mind me asking?

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 12:53 | 4073617 Snoopy the Economist
Snoopy the Economist's picture

UMASS Amherst - computer engineering

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 15:39 | 4072100 pitz
pitz's picture

At any given time, certain fields are in more favour than others.  Where I live, there is voracious demand for Civil Engineers, but practically no demand for Software Engineers.  So the Civil Engineering grads (for example) can honestly make the claim that they are fully employed.

There's some NSF data I understand, on the number of STEM grads in the working age population versus the number of STEM jobs.  It backs up the very poor employment prospects of STEM grads overall.  And even at the individual school level, schools like UC Berkeley and Cornell (amongst others) publish post-graduation survey stats further backing up the claim that only 1/3rd are able to find jobs. 

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:27 | 4070956 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  For the peanut gallery.  ( Definition of a STEM degree)

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:29 | 4070961 A Cruel Accountant
A Cruel Accountant's picture



I know engineers who cant find a job. The could if they moved to N Dakota.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:33 | 4070968 pitz
pitz's picture

Maybe Mechanical and Petroleum engineers.  Not Electrical, Software, Chemical, etc.  And even then, most of the demand in N Dakota is for jackscrews, not for engineers.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:34 | 4071102 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

Agree on the electrical and software engineers, but not chemical; those are still in demand. Just not the shit most universities pass off as chemical engineers these days

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:47 | 4071120 pitz
pitz's picture

Could you elaborate a little further?  There's room for a few ChemEng's in the O&G industry, but not really in the field engineer sense.  A couple ChemEng's I know are fracking fluid sales reps, technical reps, and so on and so forth.  Not exactly jobs that couldn't be done at the technician level.  The information I have is that the reduction in chemical processing in the US, and consolidation of the refining industry has reduced ChemEng demand, while supply has exploded from the Universities.

Up here in Canada, Chem Eng numbers basically went nuts in the universities.  While Computer/Software student numbers collapsed.  Bubble chasers du jour I guess. 

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:46 | 4071219 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

Perhaps your information is wrong; or maybe mine is too.

But there is a surprising amount of domestic production of synthesized chemicals in the use. I'm not an O&G expert, but I do know that it is a large and hopefully growing market. There's a lot of chemistry that goose into these operations. Organic synthesis of new chemical technologies seems to be quite robust in what I've seen. And again, surprisingly, there are a lot of players (even internationals) adding capacity to their US operations.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:27 | 4071243 pitz
pitz's picture

Maybe just the context.  I was referring to North Dakota.  Not much of a petrochemical industry there.  East Coast/Gulf Coast, sure, the cheap natural gas is starting to breathe some new life into those industries.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:59 | 4071526 Bobbyrib
Bobbyrib's picture

When that boom goes bust, they will have almost useless experience in the US. Time to move to the wonderful Middle East at that point. Maybe they can work for Halliburton.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 05:22 | 4071384 minosgal
minosgal's picture

OTOH, wealth inequality has driven the art market up a bit.

'Unlike stocks, an artwork’s price reflects numerous nonfinancial intangibles, like the pleasure of owning a painting or, perhaps more important, its ability to signal the owner’s vast wealth and erudition.'

Even in the low-end. emerging artists' market, while sales to American middle class via local art festivals may be lackluster, art sales via the intertubes remain a steadily growing cottage industry -- not a big market, agreed, however there is a thin global sliver who will buy what is essentially very expensive wall paper. How does one say noveau riche in Chinese?

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:24 | 4070951 A Cruel Accountant
A Cruel Accountant's picture

I know people who got students loans went on spending binges. Overseas vacations, did not work and "focused on school", got shit degrees and now are on the verge of homelessness.

I did not borrow money and bartended may way thru school. No debt.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:29 | 4070960 pitz
pitz's picture

I did summer jobs and internships.  And had a side business.  Graduated 2 degrees with 40 grand in the bank.  Went to one of the least expensive top-20 institutions in my field.  Didn't help when the industry I was trained for collapsed in the wake of the tech bubble.  Many of the companies associated with such still are trading at 5-10 cents on the bubble prices.  The new "dot-com" bubble has mainly been for software companies. 

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:44 | 4070988 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  When you finish your Accountancy Accreditation, put me first on your list of clients.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:31 | 4070962 tao400
tao400's picture

Just like with the fed actions, you have to roll the dice on risky assets. You have to have it. The employer doesn't even ask what your debt load is. I know I don't.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:31 | 4070963 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Work for the government. Better hours and pay. The janitors in San Fran Sicko even get paid $82,000/year, and knowing Engish isn't required. Some High School teachers in other cities make over $150,000/year.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:31 | 4070964 I Write Code
I Write Code's picture

It's worth more than zero and probably less than then quarter mil it costs these days at ivy league list price.  But if you come from money you don't CARE if it's worth the price, and if you don't come from money for the most part you get a huge price break.

It might actually bite harder these days at the top state universities, where the price of a four year degree might be over $150k and availability of scholarships for most would be minimal.

I graduated from a name school mumble years ago with debts equal to about 1/4 of my first year's salary, and paid it off within I forget maybe five years.  These days the odds of getting ANY job after graduation (and keeping it for five years) are much less, but if you can keep to my ratios it's mostly harmless and might even be worth it in purely monetary terms.  Even if there's an ongoing tax from the alumni association.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:33 | 4070965 DYS
DYS's picture

Personally, I enjoy going to school, but it is really expensive.   Masters programs are running at least $25k.   I'm looking at Penn State.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:33 | 4070966 1C3-N1N3
1C3-N1N3's picture

Well, ZH, I've capitulated. I'm going back to school to study bio-chem.


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:33 | 4070967 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

How many self-made billionaires have college degrees?

(Oh, I know that theivery is in there too a la Gates. But regardless, that motherfucker has some coin)

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:10 | 4071536 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Are they the exception or the rule?

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:40 | 4070980 rationaldemocracy
rationaldemocracy's picture

A degree is worth it, yes.

there are only a few types of people  who are anti-education

1) Greedy Old Whites who never got a degree themselves

2) Children of Greedy Old Whites who went to college so that "they could get a job" - NEWSFLASH retards - you don't go to college to job, you go to college TO LEARN.  Now these little hellish offspring of the republican demonseed are all bitter and sad and are just telling people to "get a trade"...pathetic.

3) people who just never had the intelligence to succed in college, these are mostly men who think that "there's some sort of gender discrimination because we are too stupid to read a book"

get a will make you a better person..and that is the whole point of it all.


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:55 | 4071015 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Your assumption that having a degree is synonmous with education displays real ignorance.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 09:20 | 4071542 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Good point. If anything attending a university pointed me in the right direction, and the actual education came from outside academia.

Universities only serve to give you that "job hunting license" needed to meet the over-inflated requirement of the job description itself. Truth is that many jobs that ask for a college degree could be done by a high school grad, but because of the oversaturation of grads nowadays taking lower positions some employers have taken it upon themselves to up the qualifications requirements. Academic inflation is rampant nowadays.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:37 | 4071209 monad
monad's picture

Its interesting you say this, because it didn't make you a better person.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 07:38 | 4071451 swedish etrade baby
swedish etrade baby's picture

where does your  quote come from?

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 10:12 | 4071619 Debt Slave
Debt Slave's picture

telling people to "get a trade"...pathetic.

Pathetic? Not at all. Good advice actually. I took up a trade, never went to college, make $55k a year, own a paid up house and have a nice nestegg for retirement. Two cars paid for and less than $2k in debt. That's right, less than $2k. Yeah I don't make an engineer's pay, but I'm comfortable, happy, and DEBT FREE. There will always be a steady demand for folks that can keep the world's machinery running.

Screw the degree. You young men with talent go check out a trade school where they will teach you a valuable skill that employers will pay a decent, living wage for. But for those of you that are afraid of real work and getting your hands dirty, go to college and get a worthless degree in cultural marxism. Then you can graduate with $20 grand in debt and a lot of competition for dwindling opportunities.

Sun, 10/20/2013 - 11:36 | 4071915 epwpixieq-1
epwpixieq-1's picture

You clearly may have to think for additional degree-ing as you are confusing  terms:

"A degree is worth it, yes."

"there are only a few types of people  who are anti-education"

If you read ( and understand ) what the critics are saying, you will find that it is definitely not anti-eduction, for they are criticizing the DUMIFICATION in the ("edu"/dumifi)cational system.

There is a big difference between a degree and education. Education (that can be equated to learning) is a life long process, that, luckily, starts with ones parents and continues to the end, on every ones own terms.

While a degree is a predefined program that may or may not give you eduction,  especially in US of A, where the biggest problem is that A LOT OF even very questionable "eduction" under the term degree is being labeled good for sell and good for profit.

A degree is not equalized to knowledge or far less wisdom, it is just a paper that notes ones has spent some time in predefined information-given-institution and had passed successfully some requirements deemed worth by the same institution.

So, it may be a time to re-educate yourself, but doing that you will find out, that it is not as simple as getting (for your loan money) a degree from predefined information-given-institution, and only then you will start to realize the difference between a degree and education.



Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:42 | 4070985 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Without controlling for IQ, and probably other factors, this statistic is worthless, since higher intelligence has always been correlated with life success even when university degrees were uncommon.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:47 | 4070998 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Lets go Captcha/ Minus 124 + 96 +12= (36- 4+ 5) / 3.5

 Fractions are allowed.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:55 | 4071016 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

Ah, the good ol' days, when trolling required at least some intelligence

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:27 | 4071090 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Good on ya ghengis86  ;-}

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:21 | 4071184 monad
monad's picture

A study showed that those accepted into Harvard but did not attend were as successful in life as those who did attend. That Harvard admissions process is the low rent fasttrack solution to answer the question, whether you need college or not. If you are accepted to Harvard, you don't need to go.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:51 | 4071002 rationaldemocracy
rationaldemocracy's picture

Again..those of you who are watching on the sidelines..observe how many commentators are all displaying the (ignorant) thought that a degree is the same as job training.

You couldn't make this up, could you?  Education has obviously failed them.They totally missed the point. No wonder that studies have shown that conservatives have a lower IQ.






Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:13 | 4071055 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

You're new here so let me help you out. The Red Team/Blue Team shit doesn't fly. If there were any labels appropriate, it would probably be all the statist loving, true believers, butt licking sycophants to elite banker/government/fascist/moloch/tyranny of the majority power...and the rest of us.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:48 | 4071124 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Ass licking wanabe tyranical facist self absorbed pussy FB /Twitter (DETRITUS).

  * Fixed it for ya/ short aud Sunday.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 10:22 | 4071636 the tower
the tower's picture

Job training is what makes Germany so succesful.

Look into it, you will find their system of on-the-job education very interesting.


Fri, 10/18/2013 - 21:53 | 4071008 saltedGold
saltedGold's picture

As a college dropout, I laugh when I see that I'm in the same, or better, financial position as my coworkers who got their degree(s) and are doing the same job as me or less.  I knew college wasn't for me, but I was guilted into it when I was young.  Two years of epic partying and countless FRNs wasted, I left to build a career instead of flounder.  Luckily, I didn't accrue too much debt, but there's still a bit left to pay off.  I've been wanting to take the excess income and rid myself of the remnants of my college decision, but this damn metal keeps showing up instead.  I wish Gold/Silver would take off so I could feel good about not buying any more.

By the way, I know several people that are doing excellent right now that don't have college degrees.  Hard work, focus, determination and the desire to go above and beyond in everything you do will get you where you want to go in life.  I do admire those who got their degree(s) and left college debt free.  The discipline and consistent effort to work through college are the same qualities that will put them at the top in any job they have.  The 5 year student that chants, "Cs get degrees" is entering the workforce thinking they'll just fall right into a job and be just fine expecting things to just come their way.  They'll be earning their Ph.D in Reality soon...


Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:29 | 4071494 DYS
DYS's picture

For sure, school isn't for everybody.   I firmly believe that you can get as good, or better education, outside the formal educational system.  There is simply too much good information available, for free.   However, what a college degree does show is that you have the endurance to finish something which required a long term committment.   It shows that you can be methodical and rigorous.   It's not only about the information you learn, but the work it takes to learn it, as well.   If you only want to learn something, go buy a book and be done with it.   If you want to prove something, get a degree.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:10 | 4071042 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Free markets have been killed by the banksters so how does anyone know if an education will get a job or if a job is a real job or not? Washington D.C. controls the economy now suckkas. So my roomates grand daughter's husband that just got his LVN license on the GI bill was able to get his first LVN job today at a plastic surgeon's office. He is the same one that couldn't get hired at the VA after serving in the US. Navy for 4 years because he isn't a US Citizen. His starting wage is $37 per hour.

See we don't need real jobs but  instead need to serve the elite or their policies like ObamaCare. Until they decide something else is best.

So since that Bernanke M'Fer has been printing me up a bundle to go to college I'm taking up creative writing. I'll probably never be as good as L. Ron Hubbard or be able to gather a cult but my name wasn't "Hubbard" to begin with.

Anyhow with the way things are going in Washington D.C. I'm pretty sure creative writers are going to be in demand.

I literally got an invite to see if I wanted to be an intern in Washington D.C. "Inside the Beltway" because of my GPA.

Ya they want me. Things are pretty fucking bad.

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:24 | 4071083 CultiVader
CultiVader's picture

i think we all can agree that ur life is what u make it, you know bootstraps and such...the point to hold on to is be smart, dont go into debt for a university education that will handicap you.  If u can afford to get ur masters in literature, by all means do so...if not then ur a dumb fuck no matter how educated u are.  Be Smart, Work Hard At Whatever Ur Doing, Avoid Debt like The Plague and u should be closer to happiness wether ur a plumber, writer, or engineer. Peace

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 22:51 | 4071131 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  I think you're finding some good things. +1

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:28 | 4071198 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Everest College Commercial – Hood Variant

Fri, 10/18/2013 - 23:32 | 4071204 nakki
nakki's picture

Here's the real question. If 2.3 million students get a degree every year (1.5 million bachelor degrees and 800,000 associate degrees), and roughly 2 million jobs are created ever year, what happens to the other 300,000. This doesnt even acount for those that just graduated from high school (3 million) or immigrated from other countries? By the way these are all government statistics. Now of those 2 million or so jobs roughly 70% are in the service sector most of which need no college degree. In the new normal economy, unless you have a masters or doctorate it would seem that the degree would not matter in the job you would get. Now I'm not saying college is not a good experience, or certain degrees are not important, but most jobs created in the USA are part time service industry jobs that require no college at all. Truly a sad state for the youth of this country.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 00:00 | 4071231 W.M. Worry
W.M. Worry's picture

The average debt is the price of a mid range automobile. Big deal, go to College and ride the bus. You'll end up better off than the HS graduate who bought a car. I never used my College degree per se, having been self employed my entire adult life, but I learned things in College that enabled me to be successful in endeavors for which higher learning is not a prerequisite. 

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:45 | 4071293 Caveman93
Caveman93's picture

Paying cash as I go for my degree. What fucking idots want debt? Geez.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:47 | 4071294 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

College grads have discovered how to jerk off and make money:

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 01:50 | 4071297 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Go to college.  Get educated.  Graduate.  Start an industry.  Create jobs.  Hire managers.  Watch the managers you hired export all the jobs you created to other countries.  Feel good about helping the economies of other countries.  It's a new world they say.  Things have changed, they're not the same today.

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 04:12 | 4071364 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

College graduates are twice as likely to [look for] employment.


I wonder why,

"College graduates are twice as likely to find employment?"

Sat, 10/19/2013 - 08:26 | 4071492 mrdirt
mrdirt's picture

Many college grads get jobs, unfortunately most are underemployed become bartenders, waiters, waitresses, retail paying minimum wage to about $11/hr. and after graduating go back to living at home.

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