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Troika Wants To Strip Greece Of Defense, Auto Industries, Greece Balks: The Troika-Greece Can-Kicking Toxic Loop
While the world awaits with bated breath until the moment that Greece can no longer afford to pretend it is solvent and has to apply for its third bailout from Europe, or else threaten to take down Deutsche Bank and its tens of trillions in gross derivatives, the world has to listen to the constant jawboning from the Troika which for the past nearly 4 years continues to express its displeasure with Greece, and yet still provides every Euro of funding the imploding country requests. In the latest iteration of this charade, the Troika has apparently flexed its muscles and made it clear that if Greece wants to receive the next round of cash, it will have to shutter the state-owned Hellenic Defense Systems (EAS) and the Hellenic Vehicle Industry (ELVO). In short: shut down the domestic defense and auto industries, and we'll talk. Oh, and if as a result you have to import your guns and cars from Germany (whose generous funding has kept you afloat so far), and have to take out Deutsche Bank loans to pay for them, so be it.
From Kathimerini:
The heads of the troika mission in Greece are due to return to Athens at the beginning of November, it was revealed on Tuesday as sources in Brussels insisted that the country’s lenders would not back down over their demands for further fiscal measures and the closure of Hellenic Defense Systems (EAS) and the Hellenic Vehicle Industry (ELVO).
The Greek government has balked at suggestions it may have to find as much as 2 billion euros more than it has planned in savings next year. However, EU sources told Kathimerini that the troika does not consider the draft 2014 budget reliable. Greece’s creditors believe the plan overestimates tax revenues and underestimates social spending.
As a result, the troika wants to thrash out more measures with the Greek government, ensuring that the deficit target for 2014 will be met. The European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund agree with Athens’s positions that any extra savings should not come from “horizontal” cuts to wages and pensions.
The precise amount needed to cover Greece’s fiscal gap next year will not be assessed fully until the current troika review is completed. This requires Greece to meet the milestones agreed with its lenders, such as rounding off the first phase of a public sector mobility scheme. EU sources noted that Greece could survive without receiving its next loan tranche until spring, thereby underlining that the troika is not in a rush to complete the review.
With regard to EAS and ELVO, Greece’s lenders do not believe it is possible to save the two state firms as they are a drain on public finances, in contrast to other European countries, where companies in the defense industry are profitable.
Athens has been in contact with the European Commission over the past few days to respond to queries about its plans to keep the firms afloat. The government believes that it could turn EAS into a profitable company with two years. EU sources said Brussels had heard similar pledges from Greek governments over the past 20 years.
The last snarky sentence was from Kathimerini, not us.
And of course, all of the above would be dramatic if it wasn't quite clear apriori that this is merely the latest iteration of the kick-the-can closed loop, best summarized by the schematic below.
h/t @GreekFire23
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One more step toward the final solution.
"in contrast to other European countries, where companies in the defense industry are profitable."
I worked in an Italian defense industry corp and it was not profitable. This statement is pure propaganda!
Any "industry" that relies on government/taxpayer monies for income is by definition not profitable.
Just tell em the car business is electrifying and they know Elon Musk and that the defense shit is for the children. Lotsa money available from DC
And tell DC that they can all vote Dumbocrap....that'll seal the deal
Unfortunately everyone everywhere that can is hanging off the government's teet for sustenance.
Indeed, these companies are bottomless pits, losing money every year, and the workers are guaranteed a salary permanently regardless if there are orders or not. There is no other way that it could come through.
And BTW, we ARE buying military stuff from the US and from Germany already, and a former Secretary of Defense just got a life sentence for bribery.
As it was from the beginning, it's the German and American banks and industrial groups that receive the money which Europe "hesitantly" lends to Greece, so that we can pay them. When they realise they can't extract more, they'll just drop us in the gutter. We're so fucked that freedom isn't as attractive a prospect as it sounds.
The former secretary of defense who got "life imprisonment" will be about in 2-3 years so don't believe that punishment has been handed down.
These companies don't have to be closed.....they just need to be sold to a Greek company that can run it properly. They must of course acquire it without strings in relation to employees and wage rates.
This is not always correct and sometimes you would not want them to be profitable. For example, the police, defence, education etc.
I laughed when I saw the headlines. Having lived there awhile I can testify Europe is the most defenseless continents on Earth. They couldn't even act against genocide by a ragtag band of thugs within their own borders (US had to do it of course). Everyone has slashed defenses to the bone in the vain hope the rest of the world is as nice and friendly as they are. They're transferring everything into the social welfare state and still creating massive, mounting debt. Who is going to defend Greece - Italy, Slovenia, Hungary, Spain? LOL
That is not quite the right question.
Perhaps a better one is "Who is going to be fool enough to conquer them and take on those costs?"
If they had oil, they'd be conquered and the conquerer would let the low lifes starve, but they have no oil so there's nothing there to conquer.
See me in 20 years when Europe is rapidly shrinking and aging and further denuded. The surrounding African and Asian nations will be overflowing with extra tens of millions. Invaders rarely act rationaly - if so they wouldn't commit their own citizens to death for an insane idea. Germany had all the living space she needed and the top economy on the continent. What possible reason could she have to enslave her neighbors?
The point is that wishes do not make reality. As much as we'd like to believe the rest of the world is as depicted on NPR - nice, mannered, educated friendly and concerned about individual and property rights, that is not the reality. Perhaps rising living standards will bring an end to tribalism, religious persecution, ethnic favortism and murder for theory. I doubt it but it's worth a try.
The single item that made it possible to extend human life beyond the age of 50 just won't be available and it's a problem that gets solved with the absence of it.
http://www.ashp.org/DrugShortages/Current/bulletin.aspx?id=786
Don't count on heart meds being around much longer.
"They couldn't even act against genocide by a ragtag band of thugs within their own borders (US had to do it of course)."
Really? While the EU trojka at the time tried to prevent a civil war in Bosnia, the US simply encouraged the muslems in Bosnia to declare independence while everybody knew that that would lead to civil war, which it did. In the end the Dayton agreement was implemented which was almost a copy of proposals as put forward by the EU (EC at the time).
WW3 is on our doorstep today friends.
Saudi Arabia is breaking Diplomatic ties w/ America.
This could be the "Black Swan/Arch Duke Ferdinand" Moment/Event which leads to WW3.
America cannot/will not, allow the US Dollar to lose its world currency reserve status.
Look for a Key Assassination to mark the moment.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2472680/Saudi-Arabia-severs-dipl...
If reality was a movie... the audience would leave their seat because IT ALL TAKES SO FUCKING LONG!!
Their intelligence chief is "threatening" to diminish ties. Not the same, hyperbole much? WWIII? Over Syria? The zionists will let us know when they want WWIII to start.
Depends if the Earthquakes that have been occurring since the 21st haven't broken anything important. Then there are the approaching food shortages there, it wasn't a good year for Israel farming wise. Plus the weather patterns changing in the area to allow for monster Tornadoes. Winter is coming...cool air, mixing with heat, quick pull on an updraft and a funnel with the power of all the nuclear arsenals on the planet drops from the sky shredding everything in it's path.
Israel is going to be busy with other things.
The right wing governments of Israel, like any other right winger, sees war as a solution to all situations.
I mean, the military reasons for the Lebanon invasion were lame. The Palestinians were leaving the camps and becoming everyday Muslims. The parties in the civil war were starting to talk. Invasion, mass murder, and power politics were the last thing Israel needed.
But it did get people talking about something other than the dismantling of the Kibbutz system.
Right now the place is such a mess that you would think everyone would be doing the sensible thing and sitting down and pooling ideas instead of lobbing bombs at each other. Water distribution, food, land reforms. Lebanese wheat is sold in Mecca and Jerusalem and Ottawa, they have the identical problem as everyone else. Cheap energy going away.
Pick the stage you are at:
Now understand that WW3 won't happen, it can't with a Nuclear reactor situation in about 46 spots on Earth about to kill 90% of you whether you want it or not due to maintenace issues.
So who gives a fuck about the dollar. The world needs a stable, SAFE, method of currency that isn't a manipulated piece of bear shit so it can conduct it's daily business. Guess what, that is not the USD.
Look around you. Does this look like paradise? Does it look like everyone is at their potential because of the paradigm of fractional reserve banking and it's half wit child the USD? Not in a million years.
Bitch, piss and moan all you like about whatever you like that would be your business. But the world right now needs more stablity than offering a bunch of pampered fucks hookers, blow and palaces. Because if it doesn't get done and fixed, there will be no opportunity for anything. So lead, follow or get out of the way. This is coming like Christmas.
WW3 is going to be a guerilla style war. The composition of the fighting forces will be proportional to resource/energy available to keep it functioning. Efficient, ingenous and fast on your feet is going to be the equalizer.
This isn't the first time in history people have had the same delusional idea. Ever met a Vandal? As in the Germanic Gothic tribe the Vandals?
You never will.
They thought very closely along those lines of guerrilla style warfare. Or banditry, because that's what that is. It's not Robin Hood, it's thuggery.
The vandals inbred, delusional blood line lasted about thirty years and they were butchered to the last child to make sure that idea died with them. No one would have bothered with them, but after burning down the library at Alexandria. It was a situation that was stomped on hard and mercilessly to the point of removing an entire country region of people.
You know who did it? The Germanic tribes themselves, wasn't Rome or the Turks or even an Act of God.
Their own people cut their throats because the rest of the Germanic tribes were attempting to get farming and communities started after the collapse of Rome. The continuous harassment by the free shit army (Vandals) hundreds of years ago drove them all to stand up and finish them off.
There have been free shit armies in the past. This time will be no different.
Long seeds and new ideas for improving on processes to make is easier. Short on weapons and bandits.
Never short weapons. Even if banditry has a life of only 5 years after the collapse, that is 5 years too long without a weapon to defend yourself.
Also, in a historical context, cultures like the Mongols were incredibly healthy due to how they lived. Being nomads on the move, living mostly off of game, milk, and proteins, is very good for the body. Farming is just a machine for calories.
So, be aware of people that wish to follow the example of the Mongols.
Where are the Mongols now? History.
Your history of the Vandals is unorthodox, to say the least
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals
Are things in the right order of opportunity for the history that you learn to have actually happened?
Ask yourself that. Is what you read the only source of information on the subject, or is it sourced to offer justification somewhere else? Or for something else.
The size of the environment eventually forces the conflict and in turn influences the tactics used. This time will be no different. Big bloated and corrupted squeezing everyone else left to death and the blow back is no new story either. It has nothing to do with banditry or righteousness, it is to keep from being flattened to death when big, bloated and corrupted is ready to pancake you against the finite wall of all systems.
That takes energy no one has, I don't recall anything in the scriptures about full gas tanks and loaded rifles. Just with what you carry with you.
This economic situation has nothign to do with 'money' it has to do with oil. Cheap, energy rich oil. Most people will have more concerns and the world will seem infinitely bigger without reliable transportation other than feet. Bikes brake and horses get sick/die. I've owned both out in the sticks. Although if you want to prepare for that, fill your boots. You'll get bored of fucking around camping eventually and want to talk with someone who's principal concern isn't robbing/murdering someone.
Otherwise you trade one method of evil for another isn't fixing things. It's the insanity of repeating the exact same mistakes and it's got to stop. Right now, how we all live, that's the mindset that put us all in a shitty situation.
Does it bare repeating again and again and again? No. Just walk away. These assholes want you to fight and people are willing to throw their lives away on fucking "money"? You'd put yourself in harms way for another person's IOU? Why?
If you've got commitments to family. It quite possibly the stupidest thing a man could do is go get himself killed in that situation. There is no insurance in that situation for his family after the fact. Who do you think will take care of them if you die? Or are you so unimportant in the grand scheme of things that you consider yourself valueless to your family. Real men stick by the people that depend on them and use their minds to solve problems. Force is an option of last resort always and when it's used, leave no doubt that it's been applied.
Not a free shit army the way American stooges scorn people on relief.
More like an LBO firm or a 'turnaround' hedge fund. Using combative methods for harvesting value others had built through labor and foresight. The original loot 'n scoot.
Romney the Scary Clown would have been Romney the Vandal Chief.
The greek parliament....err Troika voted to cut/suspend funds to reich wing party golden dawn......one step backward?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24633611
The Trokia, a solution to a problem that never existed. Champions of straw men and their economies everywhere.
The Greeks should simply go out from the Euro ASAP.
Thats what the Troika wants.Yet the Greeks keep bending over, and
don't even want lube anymore.
It is all about the pyschology of the Stalin and plucking of a chicken story.
Not gonna happen as long as the ECB is twirling the key to their handcuffs.
You don't get it. Greeks don't WANT to leave the Euro. They realize it has been a disaster and STILL want to stay. It's like Illinois and California electing the same goons over and over who have driven their states to pauper status. We imply the populace is itching to tear down the Brussels's headquarters but the opposite is true - the vast majority of Europeans want to remain in the EU. Yes, it makes no sense but the idea of the old national currencies (I loved using liras, francs, marcs, pesetas, drachmas) is fading quickly.
Exactly right. The EURO continues to exist because all the parties want it to exist. The welfare states of the South get free money by just "promising" to get better. The export states of the North get free money that leads to a weaker Euro compared to their old sovereign currencies, so their exports are more profitable. It all hinges on FREE PRINTED MONEY. Nothing will change until one of the parties WANTS to get out. Greece ain't it. Italy ain't it. Portugal ain't it. Spain ain't it. The one real threat to the whole Ponzi scheme wasn't the PIIGS, it was lowly Cyprus. They could have brought the whole house of cards down, and it's why they were the recipient of real hardball tactics by the IMF, ECB and that forced Russia to step in. That was a real threat on a global strategic conflict and had to be neutralized. The EU won't make that mistake again... until it is forced to. It will happen eventually. The problem with playing brinkmanship everytime, all the time, is that you have to keep ratcheting up the brinkmanship or it doesn't have credibility. Eventually, something unexpected happens. All collapses have always been "unexpected" by the banks that should have always been the first ones to see it coming.
You know those water wings look goofy and make you look helpless but it's still easier to use em than to learn to swim on your own.
Euros are Greek water wings.
Soon they'll demand Greeks each fork over 1 of their kidneys and a lung.
"Laws" that cannot be enforced, are not laws at all...
Same as it ever was...
Just like ObaMao care, 'law' that says you must purchase products from the Gubmint.....fuck them.
Think you should check that out. The Obamacare law says you have to buy from friends of the elected [insurance companies], and if you do not, you will be fined by the IRS. Turns the IRS into a police force, IMO. Not that it was much of anything else before.
The gubmint has the guns. Or, ultimately they will shoot you. It is an offer you cannot refuse.
Craig
If the Greeks continue to accept all of this without rising up and setting fire to the whole country in rebellion, then they deserve to reap what they sow.
The Troika are getting a taste of the original 'Greek' style... If you're not sure what I'm thrusting at, it might be past your bedtime.
I have said it once and I will say it again - this BLIND allegiance to a failed union and monetary system will engulf and deliver us into poverty. Burn that EU flag, burn the bankers and behead the politicians. oh ... and time to ditch the mega welfare state too.
See my comments above. You are delusional if you think Europeans (or even Greeks) want to leave the EU. They don't. The idea of returning to the old currencies is barely discussed in Europe although it is quite popular in US web forums (lol). They support the EU, the welfare state, peace and severe redistribution. Of course, peace is illusory and redistribution lasts as long as there is wealth to fleece.
For the 15 xillionth time, Greece imports 400,000 barrels per day, every single day. If they leave the Euro and print up some drachmas No One Will Sell Them Oil.
And then they starve when the shelves go bare.
They have no choice but to stay in the Euro.
Minor problem, them staying with the Euro. They cannot print Euros.
Only the Germans can do that.
Craig
Just a minor Glitchez in the master plan that stated happy days are right around the corner.
Greece, your only option is to take the Icelandic path.
Refinance with the ECB and IMF? They are already doing that. Don't be decieved by the news on Iceland. Nothing changed there. Iceland's hand has been out the entire time and the politicians do what they always do. Lie.
Why not leave the EU and join the SCO?
when does the shooting start, this is getting really boring
I thought we solved all this crap with WW2.....oh well......guess not.
could go the Staehood route here. Accept the US Constitution as the law of the Land. We'd have to expand the size of the Capitol Building dramatically and figure out how to normalize our various Government programs. Free trade agreement sounds like a good start...obviously don't need to use the dollar anymore than they already do.
Im glad they are cutting to the chase already.
SO WAIT...STRIP GREASE OF ALL THEIR ABILITY TO CREATE AND SUSTAIN AN ECONOMY AND EXPECT WHAT DOWN THE ROAD?
It's like giving someone a fish or teaching them to fish themselves!
Now the troika will not give grease a fish or anything excpet...GOOD LUCK.
Solid thinking!!! Long term solid thinking!
So, the path to prosperity is to throw more money into businesses that forever run losses?
If that's true, US banks must be in great shape.
Feel the wealth all around you.
The ruling axis of the New Democracy Party and Pasok which previously were mortal enemies is simply a marriage of convenience at the expense of the Greek nation.
These two parties owe over 200 million euro to the banks and these loans are not secured by anything except future funding from the budget.
To borrow these amounst they have committed future expected receipts up to the year 2020!!! Such unmitigated arrogance I have not encountered before. Perhaps the Spanish PM's party is a similar case where party members have admitted to receiving money from a slush fund and yet the PM tells lies to the camera about the matter.
These loans to these two Greek political parties will be written off and to top everything off they have given the bank managers who gave them these loans over the years legal protection so that they may never be brought to justice for effectively knowingly making sub prime loans.
Greece should have baulked ages ago but the politicians were "bought off" by the TROIKA who did not demand that they reduce the incredible number of 300 parliamentarians nor did they demand a reduction in remuneration to match what was happening to other civil servants.
If these politicians had any decency they would use the bullets of their own industry to blow their brains out because sooner or later the people will take matters into their own hands.
Every IMF, TROIKA economic forecast has been so far off the mark that it either reflects the stupidity or the evil of their strategies for Greece.
"Overestimating tax revenues and underestimating social spending" has reached global contagion levels. Its clearly the way most gov'ts now operate.
Not a bad idea, getting rid of the Greek military for cost savings. Historically, the Greek military has only proven itself effective in killing other Greeks. Buying German submarines was money probably better spent.
At one point it was reported that Greece (as well as certain South American countries) had as many generals as the entire U.S. military. Makes sense in a country where the generals represent a class, not an occupation.
Greece get rid of its military? That would be suicide with Turkey right next door.
Golden Dawn wins election. Greece invades Cyprus. Defense industry profitable!
Just default already
Total unadulterated vassalage.
But who could have seen this coming really?
It should be obvious to the people of ALL countries by now that if you give up your ability to create your own money supply you becomes serfs and beggers to the central money creation authority.
ANY central money creation authority is by definition the enemy of the people and freedom from slavery. The most productive war would be against the Gnomes of Zurich and their minions.
Wrong. The most productive war would be an intellectual one to ensure that any currency has backing beyond mere trust. In other words, setting up currencies on a sound basis. That would be far more revolutionary than going after a few bankers.
That is only part of the solution.
+1 for spelling it "bated" and not "baited". Kudos.
"Draghi: Hope Taxpayer Money Won't Be Needed to Fill Bank Capital Gaps - CNBC"
WTF?!
It has ALREADY been RIPPED from their hands many times over already you complete and utter F%&ker
So the payback for bailouts is to trash an industry or two to promote moar purchases of German cars......
Well, I guess they need their payback....
So Greece decides to invade Germany with the remaining Guns and cars, they might actually win.
The Greeks have spent a completely disproportionate part of the state budget on the military for decades, due to the tensions with Turkey. On this issue the Troika probably have a point......
Having said that, so have the US government. When is the Troika due here?
Use the Geek military to strip the Troika of their livelihood.
"Greece Wins The Battle Of Feta."
http://canada.greekreporter.com/2013/10/17/greece-wins-the-battle-of-feta/
once greece develops some backbone, it will realize that it has the winning hand.
as repeatedly pointed out by the math conscious tylers, it is germany that is full of bluff and blunder. germany can not take a greek euro exit. and of course, neither can the euro.
the only ending is a default on greek bonds (as has been repeatedly the case a number of times in greek history), a marshall-like plan from the rest of europe that includes a no repayment plan for that help, and the creation of a euro central bank to 'purchase' the unsustainable debt and phoney three/four letter junk paper that has been accumulated not only by greece, but any number of euro countries and their banks, including the aforementioned germany.
formation of the euro central bank before the marshall plan for greece would only result in an ever increasing amounts for the no repayment plans of the marshall plans for the other countries that mathematically must eventually need them, thereby increasing losses for the bankers who fostered the pyramid of phoney paper promises under which these countries find themselves.
best play for the banksters. lose a little on greece to get to full face value on their phoney other paper as the euro 'fed' buys it up to get it off the banksters' book onto the peoples' books.
try any other scenario you like, but they all will include the busting of the euro. the banksters.
and of course, the entire world financial system.
:)
p.s.
this is a one country play. cyprus lost its chance.
p.s.s.
wonderful weather here. been hikin some. goin again today.
:)
i'm quite sure they know their hand and are using it. everyone in europe is aware that greece won't pay back these loans. what comes to privatisation of everything that's not nailed down, well greek politicians don't give a fuck about their national wealth.
i agree with your scenario. when default happens, the papier that is not gobbled up by ecb, will be bailed-out for the banks from the depositors accounts bail-ins. that was the missing piece which didn't allow it to happen before. actually this is still not finalised as the eurozone finance minsters are still working on the eu banking union draft(they can't agree on taking everything above insurance limit, cyprus, or percent from everybody, recent imf proposal), so it will take at least a year or two until the new legislation for the banking union is enact. entire banking union legislation only serves the purpose of doing the bail-ins 'legally' and that the framework would cover whole europe(or at least whole eurozone). let's wait and see.
Where is the Bansi of Lucy pulling the football?
Is that F1 race course ready yet?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9580361/Greece-to-spe...
In the New Normal you have to keep your military to squelch the starving rioters, and you must keep the military/auto complex in place to replace the used up ammo and the vehicles that get destroyed by the mobs tossing Molotov cocktails... If you let these things go, there could be chaos.
Greece should repudiate it's debt, pull out of the EU and join the East (SCO). The West is on a death march. World power is shifting from West to East.
What? Auto industry in Greece? A good joke!
Does anyone ELSE find it supremely ironic that the birthplace of democracy (as a philosophy) is the EXACT place that global fascism is currently making its most heavily leveraged move....?
Must Plato's Republic die in the same bed that it was born?
The Universe often gives me a chuckle when she exposes the (coincidental?) irony of her actions...
Greece is just the most obvious example of failed Democracy.
People who elected crooks to act as chauffeurs to drive them to the poorhouse.
We better enjoy the ride because the destination is going to suck...hard.
So, what you are saying is that eventually, the ability to vote produces a common level of stupidity among the electorate that eventually enables the willful "election" of a despotic tyrant...?
And, if we allow the application of forward looking prognostication, using rearward looking historical allegory, said Tyrant will eventually find himself/herself emotionally detached from the population that elected him/her, which will lead to the eventual PHYSICAL separation between the tyrant and population (think hidden concrete bunker), until one of only two possibilities exist for this tyrant:
1) Suicide before the mob gets their hands on you, or
2) Homocide at the hands of the mob
Yes.... This seems like the PERFECT reason that all would-be tyrants should consider running for public office RIGHT NOW.
If the trend is your friend, then we are entering into a period where the job market for wannabe tyrants should be RED HOT...