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Guest Post: Obamacare Side Effect – Doctors Abandon The Health Care Insurance System Altogether
Submitted by Pater Tenebrarum of Acting-Man blog,
Free Market Alert!
Many medical practitioners have apparently simply had enough. Instead of continuing their never-ending struggle with the welfare state's red tape, they have decided to revert to a free market model without insurance. At first glance that seems to represent a barrier to obtaining medical care for poorer strata of the population. However, a second glance reveals that this might actually not be the case. No doubt to the great dismay of the sick-care cartel and the bureaucracy administering it, the refreshing breeze of the free market suddenly intruding upon the system shows what prices actually would be if the State were not involved in health care. According to a recent report on the spreading 'cash only' medical care phenomenon:
“Fed up with declining payments and rising red tape, a small but growing number of doctors are opting out of the insurance system completely. They’re expecting patients to pony up with cash. Some doctors who have gone that route love it, saying they can spend more time with and provide higher-quality care to their patients. Health advocates are skeptical, worrying that only the wealthy will benefit from this system.
In Wichita, Kansas, 32-year old family physician Doug Nunamaker switched to a cash-only basis in 2010 after taking insurance for five years. (“Cash-only” is a loose description. Nunamaker accepts payment by debit or credit card too.)
[..]
Under the traditional health insurance system, a large staff was required just to navigate all the paperwork, he said. That resulted in high overhead, forcing doctors like Nunamaker to take on more patients to cover costs. Plus, the amount insurance companies were willing to pay for procedures was declining, leading to a vicious cycle. “The paperwork, the hassles, it just got to be overwhelming,” Nunamaker said. “We knew that we had to find a better way to practice.”
So Nunamaker and his partner set up a membership-based practice called Atlas M.D. — a nod to free-market champion Ayn Rand’s book Atlas Shrugged. Under the membership plan — also known as “concierge” medicine — each patient pays a flat monthly fee to have unlimited access to the doctors and any service they can provide in the office, such as EKGs or stitches.
The fee varies depending on age. For kids, it’s $10 a month. For adults up to age 44, it’s $50 a month. Senior citizens pay $100.
The office has negotiated deals for services outside the office. By cutting out the middleman, Nunamaker said he can get a cholesterol test done for $3, versus the $90 the lab company he works with once billed to insurance carriers. An MRI can be had for $400, compared to a typical billed rate of $2,000 or more.
[…]
Kevin Petersen, a Las Vegas-based general surgeon, stopped taking insurance in 2005. Petersen named the same reasons as Nunamaker: too much paperwork and overhead, declining payments from insurance companies, and a general loss of control. “The insurance industry took over my practice,” he said. “They were telling me what procedures I could do, who I could treat — I basically became their employee.”
Now Petersen does hernia operations for $5,000 a pop, which includes anesthesia, operating room time and follow-up visits. He negotiates special rates for the anesthesiologist and the operating room, and is able to provide the service for about a third of what a patient might pay otherwise.
Many of his patients are early retirees who are not yet eligible for Medicare but can’t afford a full-fledged health insurance plan, he said, and business is booming. “My practice at this point is the best it’s been in my 26-year career,” he said. “By far.”
While the cash-only model may please doctors, some question whether it’s good for middle- and low-income people. Kathleen Stoll, director of health policy at the consumer advocacy group Families U.S.A., didn’t want to speak directly to either Petersen’s or Nunamaker’s practice, as she didn’t know the specifics of each.
But in general, she fears that doctors who switch to a cash-only model will drive away the patients who can’t afford a monthly membership fee or thousands of dollars for an operation. “They cherry-pick among their patient population to serve only the wealthier ones,” Stoll said. “It certainly creates a barrier to care.”
(emphasis added)
Obviously, both the named and unnamed 'health advocates' and worriers have it completely wrong. People who don't have to pay thousands of dollars for health insurance actually can afford 'thousands of dollars for an operation' that costs only one third of what it would otherwise cost. It is not only the wealthy who can afford this free market care (besides, people who don't want it have the option to continue with the existing system).
Look at those prices! A cholesterol test for “$3 instead of $90” – that is more than 96% less! An MRI for $400 instead of “$2,000 or more” (usually will be 'or more')? Not to mention the fact that these doctors now have more time to actually care for their patients properly. What's not to like?
A Win-Win By Mistake?
Imagine for a moment what might happen if the government were to get out of healthcare altogether and there would be free competition between all health care service providers. What would happen to prices in that case? It is probably fair to assume that they would come down precipitously even from the low prices free market doctors are already able to obtain for their patients nowadays.
It is actually a good bet that the onerous red tape and the likely explosion in costs due to Obamacare will accelerate the move toward a free market in health care – unless the government explicitly forbids it, that is (unfortunately we cannot rule out completely that such tyrannical steps will eventually be taken – the government generally doesn't like it when its 'help' is refused).
If so, the Obamacare Act could turn out to become a win-win by mistake so to speak, as more and more people decide to opt out of the system. It seems clear that the free market solution is preferable to the cartelized health care system imposed by government and the lobbyists that have co-written the laws. The doctors portrayed in the article above are leading by example, and we expect their ranks to swell in coming years.
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Hey look... idiots, again. Single payer, you're welcome. Once you kick the vampire insurance middlemen out of the equation, the admin fees drop to virtually nothing and healthcare costs drop by more than half... better care for all, doctors get better compensation, insurance companies, which provide literally NOTHING of ANY VALUE get shut out. There, problem solved.
Heh heh. Yeah, kick out the insurance companies for single payer, and what does that leave? Da gubmint, the biggest middleman of them all. I'm hoping you forgot some sarc tags there, sparky.
And they do such a great job of managing everything they touch.
Glorious Communist utopia, indeed!
Hey, "thanks", pinko!
Gee, why didn't I think of that!
Peak full-retard is upon us.
As much as I wish you're correct, I can't imagine we're very far up that curve just yet.
Next thing ya know, they'll have jarheads wearin' girly hats.
The Fed can never allow this to become mainstream, lest this reduces the demand for dollar's.
Doctors for Dollars
I had a kidney stone get stuck in my urinary tract. 2 catheters and a MRI - $6,000. Sprained an ankle... $1,200 for xrays, doc visit & crutches. I need the crutches to get out of the hospital and they raped me.
Good thing it wasn't the mid 19th century or you would really be in bad shape.
Re: I need the crutches to get out of the hospital and they raped me.
Naaa, the doctors accepted payments in chickens back then. We've got lots of chickens now, I bet his entire bill would have been a few packages of frozen chickens, tops.
under the chinese medical system, you would not get crutches exiting the hospital, instead you are given a take-home do it yourself home accupunture kit to heal up that leg very nice :D
They'd a raped him a dozen times and thrown him out the door, nothing else.
Buncha laughs them medieval days.
You should have gone to one of them virtuous Libertarian doctors. You could have gotten a FAIR (virtuous) market price and paid in gold or bit-coin.
I've yet to meet a Virtuous or Libertarian practicing doctor.
Dr Cowan....delaware
I just cut a big loud fart and for a second I thought I was reading your comment outloud.
I had a kidney stone get stuck in my urinary tract. 2 catheters and a MRI - $6,000. Sprained an ankle... $1,200 for xrays, doc visit & crutches. I need the crutches to get out of the hospital and they raped me.
Do what I do; scream NO HABLO! and if they try for your wallet, fake a seizure and shit yourself. I'm 3 for 3 doing this so far.
Imagine if those doctors accepted bitcoin. No transaction fees could also lower costs. Seeing as they embrace Rand that would be an amazing development.
This is why the medical device tax. That's ok, we will soon be printing those at home. FORK 'EM!
IRS audit in 3-2-1. Do not criticize the lord thy god.
Fuck you lying socialist thieves and murderers. Medical care was relatively dirt cheap and of high quality before the big insurance companies and government colluded to "help" us pay for it.
Get back in line, ya' radical.
Re: Medical care was relatively dirt cheap before the big insurance companies and government colluded to "help" us pay for it.
I've had medical insurance through my employers for 35 years now. It's a nice benefit.
Too bad the free-shit-army of OldFarts got their socialist medical scam tho, now everybody wants it.
Socialism is like that, people see one free-shit-army parading around on motorscooters and the next thing you know the young people are pissed they aren't getting free-shit. WhoCouldaKnowed.
yer darn tootin' sonny! Back when all ye needed was old tyme snake oyle from a wagon.
totally wrong focus.
99% of the shit i come across covering the ACA/obamacare topic is a goddamn joke.
this is the real issue:
the world's major super power (days are numbered, if not already over) spends the most % GDP per capita on health care of any OECD nation <PDF> and still cannot guarantee universal healthcare for its citizenry. germany implemented this in the 1880s and has been continuously improving it <PDF> ever since then.
what the fuck is wrong with 'murica?
international profiles of health care systems <PDF>
and your cliff's note version of the above report: U.S. versus European healthcare costs: the dataOkay, now compare the German income tax rates to the 'Murican income tax rates. The Germans are paying through income taxes. It's not free, dumbass.
no shit, it's not free. did i ever claim it was?
technically it's a payroll tax. employers also kick-in half the premium amount, hence the multi-payer aspect.
the fact remains that the germans are able to deliver more efficient, effective health care for 99.8% of its population at a cost which is 36% cheaper than what americans spend for only 84.6% of its population.
tell me something isn't wrong with 'murica...
you can't fight the math
The key to make any socialized system work is the cooperation of its participants. In relatively homogenous societies where they truly feel they are part of the whole, these type of systems have a much better chance of success. America is anything but,. We are a melting pot so to speak and political rivalries have kept our society apart for at least the last fifty years if not forever. Everyone that enters this game is intent to get their fair share if not more. That cannot persist and survive. If idealistic systems worked we would not see the massive poverty, fraud and corruption rampant today. A system is not discrete form those it seeks to control. If the participants are looking to game the system for their benefit, be they recipients or administrators, the system will collapse. The problem is the people and the greatest scheme on the planet can't fix that. The people who came to this country were trying to escape the very societies that you describe as ideal, so right or wrong, you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink, and forcing a couple of hundred million to water will have no better results. Sorry.
so then, enjoy your civil war or just leave while you can (which is what i did > 6 years ago).
It may well come to that. If people are constantly being divided by virually every issue and we insist on retaining our "heritage" by Kwanza, of African American, hispanic American, numerous sexual identity Americans, and infinity, how in the hell or we all going to agree to a socialist plan that demands everyone sacrifice for the good of others? Do you think African Americans, with their long list of grievances are going to willingly sacrifice for an old white woman? How about a Hispanic who has been told, despite their entry into this country in many cases illegally and voluntarily, that they are oppressed. Are they going to sacrifice? Because afterall, that is what socialism is...sacrifice of ones own personal needs for another, or as is typical, the State. I hope wherever you moved to is unified in their goals, because if not, you are as doomed as the rest of us.
with your discriminatory undertones, i'm not surprised you are having problems trying to figure out modern-day solutions for promoting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
america is a truly fucked society - overly individualistic with no real sense of community and fellow humanity.
your best bet is to break up the union into more self-manageable parts.
And they pay a church tax too. The citizens pay the church tax.
you only pay a church tax if you're a member of a recognized church.
It isn't the math being disagreed with but the idiotic way you apply it. Where in your analysis is a control for services delivered? Hell every boob job in America is included in our gross health care cost figure. Where is your control for quality - British teeth vs. Us teeth? Where is your control for demographics? I'm pretty sure Germany, although having a large Gast Arbeiter population has nothing like our sothern border. Where is your control for contribution to R&D? Are the German's leading the world in the development of advanced medical deveices, treatment procedures, pharmaceuticals? Where is your control for outcome such as the survivability of trauma, stroke, heart attack, cancer, etc?
The sad part is that you think you are intelligent and thought this through but I suspect you couldn't tell the difference between a fresh piece of chocalate and a fresh dog turd.
if you want to get into the details, i can share a number of reports addressing the questions you raise. sadly, you'll find the US a laggard across a broad set of metrics.
do you want the materials? will you read them?
true. Yet healthcare in the US makes 18% of GDP, 4% more than the next expensive country on this planet. Just saying it's difficult to compare
Re; Yet healthcare in the US makes 18% of GDP, 4% more than the next expensive country on this planet
A country of OldFarts who think they are entitled to unlimited health-care will do that. Plus, coupled with sociopathic insurance companies and doctors trying to maximize the size of their Benz's and trophy wifes.
A nation of scammers.
You're more bitter than aspirin, but without the numerous medicinal uses.
The only reason it makes ip 18% of GDP is because of the outta control costs and over billings and outright fraud that is the healthcare system pre-ACA/Okumacare.
Mortgage refinancings are also part of the USSA GDP calculation but I cannot figure out what tangible good is being produced and sold in the economy to support having refi's be a part of the Gross Domestic Product. Take all GDP numbers from big bruth with a giant grain of salt because these numbers are pre-loaded with all sorts of notions. I wouldnt be at all surprised if each person that gets an Affordable Care Act policy is counted in some way towards the GDP, that way we can still show positive GDP growth in the new normal world we are struggling in.
Re: what the fuck is wrong with 'murica?
Germans don't hate other Germans, because they've got the French to hate.
In Merica, we hate each other more than anything (except "those people" who we really hate and is why we don't have free medical care for ALL Meircans, because "those people" aren't really Mericans).
Do you have any of "those people" over there in Germany?
Who's NOTaREALmerican?
we have the "Gypsies" (this word is equivalent to "Niggers", nowadays, don't use it in polite society), the Romanians, the Bulgarians, the whole East. African, Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants. Plenty of people scared of or hating them
Though not on an American scale, and often in pockets of cities - which are different from the Great American cities and have often a "Smallville" touch
but imo for most it's difficult for most to have negative feelings about them. They are often hardworking, adaptable and... *extremely* good looking, particularly the Eastern Babes
Re: They are often hardworking, adaptable and... *extremely* good looking, particularly the Eastern Babes
Well, it's very different here in Merica. Most people here in Merica assume "those people" are not quite human, and we don't like "not quite human" people living off our hard earned tax money because we know ALL "those people" are the same. So, I guess Europeans just don't talk to the favorite Diety enough to know who "those people" are and how they should be treated. But, that's why Merica is so great.
speak for yourself, twat.
no country is without problems
foreigner stats
refugee stats
2.2.3 Complementary systems: governmental schemes for asylum
seekers, refugees and illegal immigrants10
In 2005, 211 000 inhabitants (0.26% of the population) were registered as
asylum seekers11 and were eligible to a specific governmental scheme which
grants lower social benefits at stricter conditions than social assistance. For
health care, this means that coverage is limited to acute disease, pain,
pregnancy, birth and, in exceptional conditions, for other benefits like dentures.
Only when they have stayed in the country for more than three years without a
decision being taken, they are eligible to social assistance if required which also
involves full SHI coverage. The same regulations apply to refugees for
humanitarian reasons (see 3.1).
In addition, illegal immigrants are officially entitled to the same health care
benefits as asylum seekers. De facto, however, they mostly do not utilize health
care because they fear that their illegal status would be disclosed, and they would
have to leave the country.
to all the first 5 junkers of my post above:
there's no way you read all the linked content in < 35 minutes.
may god help the companies you work for or own, because you have no fucking clue about math.
Here's why I down voted you.
Whatever kind of system you want, I am totally against it unless everyone is completely free to participate or not to participate.
Nobody else should be forced to live in the type of ant colony or Borg collective that you want.
i'm calling attention to the example of germany. they've got good people and a decent system of governance. the usa can learn a lot from them. how is this imposing a system of order onto anyone? the point is to think critically, which many of you are not able to do.
i'm just highlighting the fact that a country of 80+ million people, of which there is a diversity (not as crazy as the usa, but still), is able to deliver health care at more than a 1/3 lower cost for the entire population.
my fellow americans,
you are focused on the drama rather than the real problems. you do shit about anything to fundamentally fix your slow-motion train wreck.
See above. Being able to (most of the time) add 2 + 2 and arrive at 4 does not make you a math wizard. Saying that Germany is four and the US is 5, which might be accurate, doesn't actually inform you one bit about the cost effectiveness of health expenditures in either country. Ignorance is fine. Ignorance and arrogance, which seems to be your favorite cocktail, is annoying.
abaco, is my style bothering you? good. do something about it, such as overhaul your healthcare system to improve access and quality for all.
Indeed. I'd suggest immigrating to Canada.
From the mid atlantic...
Lost my primary care provider in the summer -he left to become a yoga instructor, no kidding. I have been looking for one who is on my wave length. Hard to find. I am 1 year away from mediscare. I have an hsa. So, what I am getting as a response is truly amazing. One will not even take any insurance. The others are warning me that in one year they will not take mediscare. Next, waiting times to get in are on average 3 months, just to get an intake visit.
Welcome to the island.
I am against these rich people getting doctor services for $50 a month. Where would a poor person find $30k for doctor services?
Re: Where would a poor person find $30k for doctor services?
This is a Libertarian, "Libertarian" (LINO), and "Conservative" site. We think all poor people are only poor because they don't apply their above average skills to compete in the free-market and earn as much as the non poor people who do apply their above average skills and compete with the poor people and make enough to pay. Hope this helps.
Oh, I know! Yet millionaires like John Kerry, Al Gore, John Rockefeller, and Hillary just give & give & give & give & give & give & give & give & give & give & GIVE to the poor until it hurts!
Ouchie!
You can't fix stupid, rich or poor, but buying them off with charity does nothing to resolve the underlying problem.
Poor people are poor because they don't apply themselves, while the middle class do to some degree and are robbed for the effort. We know the system is rigged but don't make excuses for people who dropped out of school or decided their life's goal was to be in a band. Sure there are some unfortunate victims of circumstances but anyone knows that the probabilities for escaping or avoiding poverty are pretty straight forward, education and show up for work, and keep your dick in your pants. Not really all that tough if you ever tried it.
Re: Poor people are poor because they don't apply themselves
There's also the slight problem of "the poor" who are too stupid to compete. Remember the Carlin joke? Half the population is below average? Well,what percentage is 1 standard deviation below average? What does society do with 1/3 of the population who are complete and utter dumbasses?
"What does society do with 1/3 of the population who are complete and utter dumbasses?"
Exactly, good point. That is another side effect of growth and efficiency as #1 economic priority. Not only does it encourage corruption, it destroys work for the less able, thereby damaging all of the society around those people. We used to know that there were things more important than money.
Here's the solution. Ditch the income tax and the property tax. You can feed yourself on 1 acre.
Do so.
You can't or are too lazy? Then fucking starve.
Agreed. Sounds harsh but even if one is not very able in that manner, another who is could step in & help and get a small, reasonable portion of the proceeds (yield, barter) of that land to the benefit of the person who owns it but isn't so capable.
Stop making excuses for those at the bottom. We have medically verified mentally handicapped people holding down jobs. Those at the bottom are not too stupid to work, they are too smart, as they have figured out how to get by without the need of a job. Give credit where it is due. Change the paradigm and change everything. Stop paying people not to work and you might just be amazed at how many find a job. we have massive debt burdens for sure and I'm not certain at all that we can survive them, but one thing is for sure, if more and more people sit on their ass feeding off of others, it will NEVER last.
I would think that requiring higher ability to survive would BOOST the over-all quality of the species since those who can't compete will be wiped out.
"We used to know that there were things more important than money"
no, we just used to have real tangible things for money & people were expected to survive by getting those real tangible things, or die.
Sparta had an effective method.
Re: Sparta had an effective method.
That only works until you realize your own kids, or the brother's kids, or the neighbor's kids, are dumbasses. That's when people look in the mirror and suspect they aren't above average either.
What does being in the lower half have to do with poverty. There are a lot of "not so smart and savy" people out there that while not being rich are living decent lives and relatively happy. There is always a lower 50%, even at Harvard. Are all those lower half classmen destined to poverty as well? Success or at least escape from poverty has one common theme... effort.
By definition, MORE than half the population is below average. Half the population are below the mean.
Surely you're not proposing that the entirety of society should suffer due to stupid people, or be forced to aid them in their continued stupidity?
Stupidity is a personal problem. If it happens to manifest as constant poverty for some, or new poverty for some who once were rich, that's too damn bad, isn't it?
Actually, Tyler pointed out just to day that poor people are poor because if they made $100 more, they would lose more than $100 in public assistance benefits. No sir, I think I'll decline that raise you're offering.
This is not a libertarian and conservative site, douchewad. This site is open to all thinking people, whatever label they choose to bear. I think you'd find, actually, that the majority of the posters are Constitutionalists who scorn the whole Team Red/Team Blue dynamic.
I can't speak for everyone here, but I don't hate poor people. I was poor in college, when I worked 2-3 jobs at a time to support my education, since I took no loans and my parents didn't help me at all. A hot night out on the town for me was buying a cup of coffee that wasn't instant coffee made on a hot plate. The thing was, I worked my ass off to get where I am today, and I didn't stay poor. The only "poor people" I hate are the welfare moochers who pop out a new kid every so often so they can keep inflating the gubmint checks. Funnily enough, I hate the welfare moochers on the other end, too, who pop out a new crisis every so often so they can keep inflating the gubmint bail-in checks and tax benefits. Strange, eh?
Da nerve o' dem dar libber-scary'ins!
:-)
Obamacare is the new public education system. Rampant disfunction will lead to inescapable costs as we will be mandated to pay for it whether we want it or not, but to get the services we need will force us to go to the private sector and pay again. This abandonment of the public services will remove even more pressure for performance and an even further failure that will NEVER be admitted to, requiring even more public funds to sustain. We have seen this before so we know what happens next, it will just happen faster. The best part is the advent of computerized technology, that even though government has never been able to accept any blame, now it is most definitely no one's fault as we see today, it is simply a "glitch" in the software. The intentions were good.
"Obamacare is the new public education system."
Do you feel smurter, yet?
It seems the education system collapse was required in order to facilitate our next debacle, Obamacare. Dumb and dumber. But we are getting an education, albeit an expensive one.
aN helfier two!
The health care system in the US is an enormous clusterfuck, and has been for quite some time. The ACA is simply its latest malignant mutation. As someone who has purchased their own insurance for many years, I offer a hearty fuck you! to those politicians who were saying that we had the best health care system in the world in defense of the crony fascist system. It sucked before "Obamacare," and was getting worse every year, just as it will continue to do under "Obamacare." The ACA is an insurance company's wet dream, not to mention all of the large providers that will get to continue to bill outrageously, deny care, and have forced enrollment as a bonus.
It starts with the AMA limiting med school admissions and residency positions and continues throughout the bureaucratized and financialized system. As with so many other things where consolidation takes place, barriers to entry increase every year, and only those who can afford to buy legislators get to play.
I applaud doctors ditching the system and cutting out the layers of BS, but I fear that the many politicians in both parties who are owned by vested interests will make life difficult for anyone who rocks the boat and strays from the system.
And isn't it ironic that you:
voted.
for.
it.
twice.
A vote for either Obama or Romney would have been a vote for continuation of fascist health care and associated bureacracy, as it would be with anyone supported by the DNC or the RNC. If I'd voted for any one of them, you'd have a point. Personally, I voted Libertarian in the presidential election, so...
You. Don't. Have. A. Fucking. Point.
Well, except for a well-deserved -1. Asshole.
THEIR WEBSITE WORKS!!!!
Whose?
Walmart's?
Atlas md. The, uh, group this article was written about.
Walmart?
Didn't work out that way in England.
Sure, you can go Private ... but, you have to pay for socialised medicine on top of that.
Brit Doctors like the NHS ... it guarantees them high incomes and shields them from their own incompetence.
Teachers like State schooling ... same reasons.
Re: Brit Doctors like the NHS ... it guarantees them high incomes and shields them from their own incompetence.
Everybody loves the crony-socialist scam they are living off of. There's "Libertarians" and "Conservatives" on here living off of Big-Ag, Big-MIC, Big-Road, Big-Water, Big-Airport, Big-Energy, Big-Ed, Big-House, Big-Fin, Big-OldFart, Big-OldFartHealthcare, Big-AntiDrug, & Big-PoliceState . They are just pissed other's have the nerve - THE NERVE - not to want their own socialist scam.
Duplicity, ask for it by name.
Seriously dude: Douse yourself in kerosene. Light yourself on fire, and vigorously masterbate while you burn.
Douchenozzle.
Watch. If this catches on, the feds, or the state insurance regulators, will define these membership programs as "insurance", and then will require that they meet the obamacare insurance minimums.
Another "Obungled Care" side effect... Obamacare Operator Fired After Taking Call From Hannity; Hannity To Give Her A Year's Salary | RealClearPolitics
DC doing it Chicago style... Fucking loosers.
Nobody Talks or they get it, ya see?!
Peak Fascism.
Until the brownshirts are raging in the streets with batons you aren't anywhere near the peak.
We have crossed the Rubicon on this issue as well.
Before a free market is ever allowed it will be mandatory treatment and price controls hand-in-hand with mandatory payment into insurance schemes with massive deductibles.
Remember, Physicians and Nurses currently make pretty good money.
How will the corporations and insurers make more money?
By squeezing both the Patient and Providers (Doctors and Nurses).
Look for RN's to be doing Doctor's work, and Nurse Assistant's doing RN work, and lab work being sent to India.
i hear the complaint is the panels and construction
of said panels dictating practice or treatment, thereby
negating the art of practice. you might as well have
a p.a or nurse do the deal and deed and claim the prize
of being the intermediary agent with immunity executing
with the license.
where have all the healers gone, long time
passing?
.
fascism does not tolerate freedom or healing on the
ledger brother.
.
Where Have All the Flowers Gone - Kingston Trio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qt57c7rnHM
Atlas MD...wonder if they accept Medicare? Oh, the irony!
Yesterday Hugh Hewitt was discussing another problem with the ACA and delay of the individual mandate rollout, they called it “adverse selection”. It is the idea that only the very sick, those in desperate need to health insurance will sign up for the ACA. Others will find it too much of a hassle or too expensive and just opt out.
The result is the cost per enrollee will skyrocket since only the sick will participate. The result is a risk pool that is unaffordable by anyone. The system will ultimately collapse of its own internal inconsistencies.
Those in the know in government and the industry are all too familiar with this challenge, yet this is what they are facing.
Toss in major data security issues and that fact that you are unable to login as a trifling. This thing might crash, and crash big time.
sschu
Like any other government program has been allowed to collapse. It will be backstopped by taxpayers and printed and borrowed currency until which time is is folded into the basic government budget, and that will be the last we ever hear about costs...Healthcare costs...what costs? It free! (but it sucks like everything else thats free)
There's no reason health care would be unaffordable across an entire population. What on earth would everyone do, all at once, to make themselves so sick they CAN'T be healed?
If enough people choose to opt out, the government will take notice and make laws stating that opting out is illegal.
Well, until then, we still have the Obamacare tax to deal with anyway.
Oh no! You can opt out, but just like public schools you still will have to keep paying for them, That is if you earn an income or own property. If you want good healthcare you will have to pay for it twice!
Well if you have not seen the news in the last week about United, so so...algorithms says...boom thousands of doctors no longer in network and won't even talk to them and some just renewed contracts in August. You might say it's a form of the "black box risk" with insurers today but United is the nastiest..
http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2013/10/united-healthcare-drops-300-south...
Oh and the website stuff....going to get even more interesting with QSSi, United Healthcare contractor building federal hub..as I identified where there was the potential to buy the Oracle state turnkey heatlh insurance software platform..would make sense sine CGI bought the Oracle Access and ID module..and that was the product that QSSI was having issues with...well...well...well...the Oracle off the shelf state exchange software has this little core feature called Fusion Middleware..tada..probably no need for QSSi if they would have purchased this, ready made to interconnect with insurers as well as Medicare and Medicaid...sure some scripting and custom coding is always there but QSSI built their connector from the ground up...maybe not a smart idea when time was of the essence...I would buy code when I was developing...why reinvent the wheel when you can buy a module to get the program out..duh?
http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2013/10/daily-showjon-stewart-takes-on.html
Doctors are getting screwed with all insurers want and are throwing their hands up. That's why they don't like medical records anymore as at first they were good as they were built as a tool for the doctors, then insurers got in there and changed all the software to meet their needs and cared nothing about the doctor end and said "here it is you deal with it"...sad...not how it started out..see how many subsidiaries United has and what they do, an eye opener..they cut rates with one sub and come in and sell software with another sub and they win all the way around while we suffer..
http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2013/07/health-insurance-business-under-r...
Give me cash or give me...
ammo?
Nothing is surprising about Chimpcare or any government program. It's only doing its intended goal which is to depopulate the dependent class.
No it's not, it's to empty out their wallets. The more babies they have the better, so far as the elites are concerned. You can't have a willing slave class without the desperation of debt & over-population.
Paying in "cash" would appear to be the secret to affordable health care in the short-term if not the long-term, in the US. ['Before they make that illegal.]
In 1997, my attorney, who was familiar with typical cash discounts for health care, recommended that I offer all 26 of my different health care providers 75 cents on the dollar for what they had billed me, but pay them in "cash", not insurance nor government programs, for some surgeries which I had on my arm and hand due to some hostile dog-bites. The total for all the bills was about 27 thousand if I recall -- in 1997 dollars. All of the health care providers who we made this low-bid offer to, in "cash", accepted it with not even one question asked. They just cashed their checks and never asked for another penny.
About 4 or 5 years ago, my attorney told me, "now" [back then] it had already become so bad -- due to the increased business overhead of dealing with insurance or government -- that the "cash-equivalent" discount had become more like 50 cents on the dollar, here in the US, in my state.
But, it's going to be totally different this time with the [un]Affordable Care Act. [\sarcasm off]
(Plus, it's probably worth noting that these great health care providers gave me all this potentially-life-saving health care BEFORE they had any idea whether I could actually compensate them for their help or not -- whether with insurance or not. [Well, this isn't entirely true; I had actually effectively told them in writing that I had no known way of compensating them, if I actually remember what I was signing right before I went under.] I definitely had access to health care, even with no health care insurance nor any other assets or money or even a job (as a student), at the time!
'So glad, I was eventually able to pay them back the discounted amount, in full.)
Dr.s now make Less money than Nurse Practioners and R.N.s and some L.V.N.s
Impeach Obama.
The magnificence of Obamacare:
All around, another successful government program.
massive expenditure on an IT system that is a disaster, making signup near impossible
The figure I heard quoted from the GAO is $394 million dollars.
It appears that in the 21st century, the American government has a huge erection and is shoving it up everyone's backside.
"Hey Doc! Howzat warm yellow metal feel in yer paw?" "If it still works good after that prostate surgery, there's more where that came from!"
A better question would be, what would happen if we got the insurance industry out of healthcare.
Lets put it this way, if I was dentist/doctor or whatever.
I would have a sign on my door.
FLAT RATE 200$ Per Hour.
NO INSRUANCE ACCEPTED.
NO TAXES REPORTED
NO GOVERNMENT MAIL ACCEPTED
NO GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES PERMITTED ON PROPERTY.
NOT A GUN FREE ZONE
ALL VIOLATERS BY ACT OF VIOLATION AGREE AND WILL PAY A SCHEDULE FEE OF 2000$ PER VIOLATION.
“They cherry-pick among their patient population to serve only the wealthier ones,” Stoll said. “It certainly creates a barrier to care.”
In the quiet words of the virgin Mary "Come again?"
Step 1 - These doctors are able to offer a significantly lower price for their services, and are happy to.
Step 2 - ???
Step 3 - Doctors seek wealthier clients.
Why exactly do these doctors need wealthier patients when their fees are lower? How are non-health insured people the wealthier patients?
It sounds more like the 'experts' are trying to scare away patients and/or drum up some public opposition in the slack-jaws.
EVERYONE needs higher paying clients.
the only mechanism for this, however, is for doctors to deny some patients to accept others who offer more.
It's possible. Normal markets would see this happen but it takes time & may not happen if the wealthy aren't willing to pay 2x to 10x the price just to shut out the poor. If they pay the same price they're shutting no one out based purely on being wealthy.
Great idea that I've seen work in person. However, Colorado is working on a bill that would make a medical practitioners be "part of the system," before they can be accredited, or recertified by the state. Those that are not accredited will be taken through the legal ringer.
The only way I see the number of doctors filling the need is for .Gov to forgive student loans or provide free medical degrees to those who will become life-long indentured servants to the process. I'm pretty sure that UK doctors don't have the upward income mobility that US doctors have, despite all the downsides in the US, like skyrocketing liability costs. And you're going to attract the average .Gov employee looking for a guaranteed income and pension(until the shit collapses) who will do the bare minimum to get to retirement. .Gov just levels the playing field until the bar is so low care will disappear and pension liabilities are so high the Ponzi collapses. Nice...
Broke a collar bone; less than an hour for x-ray, sling, and generic pain killer at a private clinic 20 min. away. Made it back in time for the live band at my party. Cost $95 + $12 meds. Mother had a kidney stone; 2 hrs. lying in a exam room, 15min. doctor visit, shot of a mild painkiller, premium prescription at Wally World. Bill was $12k to Medicare. My insurance was 1/4-1/5th O'Shitcare and about the same deductible, oops, doesn't fit the Bill. I understand the trend in Britain is that private patient providers are profitable as people ditch NHS for better service. Wonder why Canadians come to the US? Fast, professional service. When O'shitcare goes tits-up and everyone is beholded to .Gov for healthcare, good luck. I'll be damned if I'm paying for JoseA and JoseB and a bunch of 500lb. couch crushers to have free shit off my dime. Fines? Please.
Couch crushers. Haha!
That's going in the file.
also O'shitcare
Obamasnare?
Actually in Canada we get the time you got with even lower cost since it's from the tax bill & only a small portion of it.
We're noticing more Americans coming to Canada than the other way around. It's only fraud in that Americans don't pay tax here & get fake ID pretending they're Canadian.
You watch, the statist bureaucracy will not allow this green shoot of free enterprise to grow. Start with state insurance regulators making examples of rebellious physicians, arresting them for inlicensed insurance arrangements, while the cheerleading parrots with the corporate media cartel gleefully read the stories from their telescreens.
Also, the massive hospital-pharmaceutical complex is utterly dependent on GubbermintCare. Once their pudgy little lips are yanked off the gubbermint tit, the free market will not support the massive over-malinvestment in sick treatment (17?% of the economy) & "free" bum-care and the whole Ponzi will collapse.
Lots of Red states that will fight like hell with the sorry ass feds. We in NC will.
Watch the none sheep fill the Oshitcare pipline with by striking with gusto the shinbones of said regulators.
Everytime the whole healthcare debates comes up, I love to cite Singapore's healthcare system.
A small country with a very efficiently run system.
It has a compulsory savings scheme for it's citizens in which the citizens must contribute a percentage of their monthly earnings into a fund set aside for their future medical use. This forces the citizens to shoulder their own healthcare costs rather than have the government or tax payers subsidize it.
Government hospitals are licensed and run as private for profit companies by private companies to compete with the private healthcare providers to generate competition. There is some subsidy for government hospitals but it is usually used to keep prices across the nation in check. Most importantly though, is that the government hospitals are still turning profits despite the low profit margins by making it up with sales volume.
High standard of healthcare coupled with competitive prices and the constant attraction of talents into the industry.
Who said free markets were bad?
And here I was, thinking that public caning of criminals was their best feature.
You know what's even better?
The mandatory death penalty for murder. Not life imprisonment or 25 years imprisonment without parole or any sort of bull.
You rob someone of his life, you pay with your own.
Hot damn. I wasn't sure before. I think I might be in for this system. Still have options to weigh but that's a good sell.
Where are you getting your information?
Singapore has a highly regulated health care system.
All citizens and workers are mandated to have private insurance or the public option. Government regulation
All working citizens and workers are mandated to have a health savings account (Medisave). Government regulation
All insurance companies are required to provide a list of procedures with payment information. Government regulation
All hospital (the 13 private and the 10 government) are required to provide the cost of a procedure. Government regulation
Administrative and coverage costs of an insurance provider cannot be co-mingled. Government regulation
Low income workers receive subsidies from the government. Government regulation
If you want a system without government regulation, Singapore is not a good example.
Note, REGULATION not intervention.
It's nothing like socialism where you redistribute wealth or get the society to shoulder the burden.
At the end of the day, the individual still shoulders the cost of his/her own healthcare not the taxpayers nor the government in Singapore. The government is doing what it is supposed to, REGULATE.
Insurance, regardless of private or public are all run by for profit organizations. Publicizing of healthcare costs is used to spur competition as consumers are better informed.
All that government "regulation" is doing is to open the market to make information more accessible and shift the burden of healthcare onto the individual.
You won't find a market that is perfectly free of government regulation in the developed world but Singapore is god damn close to being an open market with the government being a mere bystander.
I forget to say that I'm current stationed in Singapore.
Have been here for a handful of years and I must say, it's the closest damn thing to a laissez faire economy as you can get. The lack of social freedom is more than made up for by the free markets and the government's hands off approach.
Not to mention my taxes, god I love my taxes and I love the fact that no freeloader is sponging off my taxes on some extensive government program.
So, you believe that mandates for the purchase of health insurance, government regulation, government run hospitals, the government run public option for health insurance and monetary subsidies for the poor to purchase health insurance is a wonderful example of laissez-faire capitalism in Singapore, while mandates for the purchase of health insurance, government regulation, a government run public option for health insurance and monetary subsidies for the poor to purchase health insurance is a Socialist plot for the government to take over the health care industry in the US?
Hey, you are missing the whole point of the exchange which is who ultimately bears the burden of healthcare costs.
In Singapore's case, healthcare costs is ultimately shouldered by the individual not society. In case you can't and didn't read, government run hospitals are actually LICENSED by the government who are run as PRIVATE LIMITED companies for PROFIT. The government hands out LICENSES but do not actively run the hospitals. The hospitals are registered as PRIVATE LIMITED companies and generate PROFIT.
Jesus, you are not in the system and you can't even be bothered to read up on the system. Evern the insurance scheme is a private for profit company. Even the public option is a FOR PROFIT company what part of FOR PROFIT don't you understand in your numb skull? The government is creating competition for the private sector to drive costs down.
The reason why democracy is a failure is when people like you are entitled to vote. God, FYI, Singapore government spending on healthcare as a % of GDP does not exceed 4% compare that with our dipshit American system spending.
So why don't you cite a developed market who is totally free of government regulation? Can't find one? Oh then I suppose Singapore and Hong Kong has to be your next best bet.
Oh just to make you pissed off, I don't pay capital gains tax either.
Imagine if money became a free market.
But in general, she fears that doctors who switch to a cash-only model will drive away the patients who can’t afford a monthly membership fee or thousands of dollars for an operation. “They cherry-pick among their patient population to serve only the wealthier ones,” Stoll said. “It certainly creates a barrier to care.”
Well, duh!
Romney losing was probably a good thing in the long run because no matter how you feel about him, the fact is he is a great administrator. He also said he would fix obamacare and had the ability to see the many problems and solve them one at a time until it was minimumly functional and then it would be near impossible to repeal. A colossal failure can find bipartisan support to get rid of and start over.
From the beginning the Canadian government healthcare monopoly banned doctors from billing the government plan if they accepted payments from individuals. They also own all the hospitals so if your doctor couldn't provide access to a hospital it makes running a medical practice impossible. It's only a matter of time until the government seizes total control.
While those points are certainly negative so far I haven't seen anyone blocked from affordability, or access, as a result.
I certainly never have been blocked due to finances or any other reason.
Let's see, my policy just went up 25%. I now shell out $550/month for a fairly healthy family of 4 that only needs to see a doctor every few months when someone gets the flu. Doc N says he can give me better service than I have now for a mere $220/month. Let me consider this for a nanosecond. Okay Doctor N, where do I sign up? The other $330 in savings will go towards starting a business so I don't have to work for someone else, or maybe I'll use it as my personal emmigration fund so I can kiss off this over-taxed, over-regulated, over-policed, over-socialized, bloated militarized, bankster overlorded, corrupt has-been of a free nation that "once upon a time" was a shining light on the hill for the world to emmulate (but as in the words of the infallible Inspector Clouseau, refering to a now broken, priceless Ming Vase, "Not anymore!").
Anyone in the USSA who carries health insurance after 2014 Jan 01 is a fool who is supporting their own abuse and enslavement.