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Guest Post: Is RV Nation at Risk?
Submitted by Charles Hugh-Smith of OfTwoMinds blog,
A reduction in retirees' disposable income coupled with a global rise in the price of oil could crimp the assumptions underpinning RV Nation.
RV stands for "recreational vehicle," but it might also represent much of America's rural economy, which is heavily dependent on recreation and large low-mileage vehicles.
On a recent 10-day, 2,700 mile camping trip through a major chunk of the West (Northern California, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and Utah), I noticed a great many empty buildings in the small towns of the West. (This does not include the favored recreational haunts of the top 5%, of course, such as Sun Valley and Jackson Hole, which are booming.)
I also observed that much of the local economy in many areas was based on recreation: fishing, housing and feeding visitors to state and national parks, boating, etc.
Nowadays, a mainstay of these recreation-dependent sectors is the large cohort of retirees with the time and disposable income to travel. While some travel in sedans and stay at motels and inns, a significant percentage travel in large RVs and stay in RV parks or campgrounds.
In less prosperous times, for example the 1960s, most families camped in tents, as this was the most affordable way to see the Great American West. Relatively few could afford a trailer (RVs were largely unknown at the time), and most trailers were of modest size and appointment.
Nowadays, RVs are often large and luxuriously appointed--at least when compared to the modest trailers of the old days (not to mention tent camping). Pickup trucks have also grown in size and power, and an entire new class of large vehicles--SUVs--are now more common than conventional sedans in many areas.
In the conventional view, this reliance on large, low-mileage vehicles and recreational pursuits of the retired class is welcomed. After all, America's new surge of energy production means energy for low-mileage vehicles will be both abundant and cheap for decades to come, and the burgeoning class of retiring Baby Boomers will fuel an expansion of recreational travel.
I am circumspect about these rosy assumptions for a number of reasons. One is that I recall smaller, less lavish vehicles of an earlier era that consumed less fuel per passenger than today's SUVs and oversized pickups, many of which generally have one occupant, and outsized RVs, many with only two occupants.
In other words, neither recreation nor travel require high energy consumption vehicles, yet we have collectively chosen costly, high energy consumption vehicles as the default setting for all but the poor or thrifty (a vanishing breed, by the look of it). One looks in vain for small pickups of the sort that were common in the 1970s in vehicle manufacturers' offerings.
Given that much of the new-found energy is natural gas and not oil, and given the dependence of the U.S. vehicle fleet on gasoline, it seems a bit premature to assume that the current surge in domestic energy production will guarantee an abundance of cheap gasoline for decades to come.
Domestic natural gas (natty) is priced much lower than natty on the global market, but oil is priced (with some variation) globally, which means that domestic oil production will be priced on the global market, not the domestic market.
That means that any global shortage or supply disruption of oil will push prices higher in the U.S., regardless of any relative abundance of oil domestically.
Lastly, as recent entries have shown, the notion that the number of full-time workers can continue stagnating while tens of millions of additional retirees draw benefits from pay-as-you-go Social Security and Medicare is financially impossible.
A reduction in retirees' disposable income coupled with a global rise in the price of oil could crimp the assumptions underpinning RV Nation.
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(natty)
You ain't seen nothing yet. The Japs have it going on...
That is some pimp shit.
how do you insert pictures ?
You have to be in the club!
We're not in the club, capish...
DaddyO
I kinda suspected that.
it's a small club and we..........ain't in it
stay behind the rope sir
i think they are pics of the moderen day "van fest"....good times...
Sir....the plebs....
What is it???
They're ...revolting.
What do they want?
They want to be able to post pictures like you can.
Everything in this story (except small towns shuttering) sounds like a win.
The way I see it, RV's will become more popular.... As a primary residence....
For people of any age.
@SamAdams: I'm already looking for my retirement PickMUp and Cab-over truck camper, so that I can live in it, somewhere over the rainbow.
Hell, I already live in a van down by the river.
I'm serious.
Well, it's a creek, not a river.
And it's on my own paid-off land.
Guess I'm just one of them early adopters!
1 AC wasn't in homes then
2 rv = nudist colonies!
You have to be in the club!
We're not in the club, capish...
DaddyO
-------------------------------------
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
Semperfi: To insert images, you got to know a little HTML, it would take 2-3 hours only to learn how. Also, seach on how to insert images in a forum ...you'll be on the way.
thanks
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMMA GIT ME ONE DEM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The new RV nation, guys, is at Lake Chapala, Mexico.
The RV retiree moves his state of residency to Texas or South Dakota (because 0 state income tax) and has no rent or property tax to pay -- just maintenance on the RV. Might as well just get a 2 bdroom/2 bathroom house at Lake Chapala for $150/mo.
It's also a lot like yacht cruisers. They buy a $75,000 32-foot sailing yacht with dreams of sailing around the world, but what they do is dock in Rio Dulce, Guatemala (south of the hurricane belt) and . . . pay no property tax and $10/month mooring fee (rent). The locale has free wifi and water access, and even sewage barge/trash pickup. A study said 98% of all yacht cruising time is spent tied up at a dock.
This all works because of global ATM access and direct deposit Soc. Security checks -- as well as the Guadelajara medical facilities and the same quality ones in Guatemala. Retirees are just flat out going to leave the US and spend their money elsewhere -- keeping enough each year to fund a flight by their kids to come see them.
Lake Chapala's a crime ridden shithole on a polluted lake.
Crash--you are full of crap! I live in Northern Mexico and you can't find a hovel for $150.00 a month . $75,000.00 for a decent 32 ft boat -- try $200,000.00 Get a life and facts !
This is after a quick search:
http://chapalahomesrentals.com/rentals/casita-craven-san-juan-cosala-lak... $300/mo, quick search and you can do better. You will not find deals without knowing where to look because the brokers there know Americans don't know the real prices. Avg Chapala Mexican pay scale is 700-800 pesos/week that's $61. Of COURSE the rents are low. How can they not be? Just don't look through tourist agencies.
The crime reputation is within 20 miles of the border where the druggies are doing their thing. There was a murder near Chapala a year or two ago and the local law enforcement went crazy because they know that threatens their meal ticket.
http://www.chapalaclub.com/2010/07/crime-and-safety-in-lake-chapala-mexi... probably not impartial folks, but they did put time into research.
As for $200K 32 ft sailing yachts, here's a $73K 36 ft sailing yacht, and I'm sure they'll take $200K if you want to pay it.
http://boats.oodle.com/detail/1988-36-foot-kirie-364-elite/3509587956-pu...
CrashIs Optimistic..spot on, +5 for your post. You nailed it! RV nation is a one-way trip to Mexico and sell the tyres, who needs 'em anyway?
Many folks have not been to Lak Chapala, so if you have any pics of the immense trailer parks there....
Drive on a typical road in America and all that plastic shit low to the ground starts to puncture everybody's tires behind that ludicrous piece of shit.
It's got hydrolics: It's in the lowered position in the photo.
Strange looking snowplows?
moose scoop
..for radioactive snow
Oh, how Otaku of them. How will they lower that Fin for some of those low tunnels in half of our national parks.
I will say this about National parks: They bring in the tourist bux from the Japs, Germans, Dutch and Danes.
Another great thing about NP's: No welfare people. No loud music blasting. No fights in the parking lots. Almost no litter anywhere at all.
Show me the sailboat equivalent of that shit and I'll be ready to move in within two days.
hedgeless...you have a great Sense of the Macabre! We all enjoy! Looks like Fukushima met Godzilla at RV World. The NAMES of RVs are wild as well: "Lil Scamper," "The Rambler,""Off We Go....The Prowler." One could mash up a C+W hit right away with such monikers. Years ago, buds and I stenciled on the following name at a HUGE honking RV parked overnight at WalMart: "Anal Intruder." We have no idea what ensued.....
Natty Ice Light?
Clark...that there is an 'Ar Vee'....we rolled into town on fumes.
No, it's just the beginning of the "growth stage" of the RV Nation. More people selling their homes to live in RV's. Unfortunately, they can't afford any gas to drive them or the rent in the nicer RV parks.
was just going to write the same thing - I've considered doing it myself - of course you'd probably be labeled a terrorist
How about say 5 acres of arable land with an RV sitting on it?
I get misty-eyed when I start imagining this shit. I need to stop.
Satellite dish on the roof and the dog leash tied to the bumper of the pick up. The New American Dream.
When I talk about this to my wife, she says, "But, we'll be those weird people".
EXACTLY! It sounds wonderful.
The weird people were just ahead of their time.
Weird is the new normal.
It sounds wonderful.
i'm witha ya, meat. think about it, dig a well so no water bill (go ahead and put up some solar to power the pump and get a backup hand pump), septic so no sewer bill, previously mentioned solar so no power bill...there's a whole lot that i could do with a setup like that to get the govt out of my life...
Well I told my wife, the worst case scenario for our retired years, would be to sell our Honda, keep my pickup, use the car sales proceeds to buy an old airstream, and haul it to a rv park, setup "fulltime" for $400/mo. cable included. For variety, move on every year to stay ahead of NSA.
I went through a year of college living in my uncles RV. Paid $180 a month for rent at the park and that covered electricity and water. Water line froze though in winter and had to buy some jugs, but hey.
Builds character.
After my first RV trip I considered starting an RV park near me, but due to regulations (specifically having to get an "environmental impact analysis" I think I'll go elsewhere).
Talked to a guy who runs a KoA out in Arizona. This guy has Nubian Goats in case you ever meet him. He said that the Californians moving into Arizona are fucking things up politically and making it hard to do business even there (like forcing him to install a wheelchair lift on his swimming pool that zero people have ever used).
You're close.
The growth stage of RV Nation . . .is a passport. Sell the RV. Move to Lake Chapala, see post above.
My thoguhts exactly.
"RV parks" will end up with permanent residents with the RVs (Recreational Vehicles) become PAs (Permanent Abodes). Of course they are affordable to live in and have less to maintain than a house if eliminating an operating engine is out of the picture since movement no longer matters. A permanently placed RV will likely be easier to afford than a house for folks of all ages in the future the oligarchs have planned for us.
Once you get to the West, no need for gas; just unfurl your sail.
2007 called, they want their article back...
You're a little late on this, RV sales in the US have been on the decline for at least 5 years.
Re; RV sales in the US have been on the decline for at least 5 years.
Perhaps, but some guy opened up a large RV dealer near my bucolic college town about two years ago. Still going strong best I can tell.
The OldFarts that lived off their Big-Gov scams most of their lives and now moving into their ultimate crony-socialist phase and using SS to buy some mobility bling.
RV sales lots remind me of art galleries in Aspen - most of them are probably laundering money, not selling much. The classes of "rv" you see out west fall into two catagories - beater hunter rigs in the fall and $250,000 diesel bus things with expando rooms hauling $40,000 SUVs behind, on their way to someplace to 'winter' or 'summer.' There are a lot of the huge rigs on I-70 in the spring and fall. Many have disabled vet plates.
by the time you add security glass, 4 wheel drive, satcom and a survival module you are easily over a million....saw it on Youtube.
Re: most of them are probably laundering money, not selling much
HA! probably true. Most of the ones sold by the guy near near me are the high end ones. The lot empties out for awhile, then it's full again for about a month. I guess he's selling them or he wouldn't be there (unless he's laundering money! Hell, maybe he's really just driving them around to look like he's selling them!)
"Disabled Vet" plates on an RV? I knew it... that FOKKER!
Are you in Northeast Indiana?
Davis CA.
Yeah, they're staying mobile, off the Grid, and away from the Property Taxes. Which include charges for local education, for which they do not want to pay.
The guys who drop that kind of money probably weren't the grunts on the front lines, getting shot or blown up. Probably in some safe, cozy office job... shuffling paper. These civil service guys are experts at collecting and living off the Gov, not experts in paying, designing, building, creating or risking own capital in the private economy. And then they still bitch about "taxes". Fucking two-faced hypocrites!
I know of a former NY cop ('ex-Vice') who 'retired' to FL. He had a house built and sold it a few years later just before the crash -- after his cocktail waitress wife (cash tips!) caught him cheating with a MILF down the street. What a pair they were. After each got half the house profits, they split and he went off the grid for some reason. The old pals and a host of "service providers" from NYC kept sending the mail to his old house. He made a deal with the buyers (friends of ours) for him to pick up the mail in person. One day he picked it up with a brand new, high-end RV. After that he came with a top-end BMW motorcycle.
Yeah, that's how these guys work the system. / No doubt they're all God-fearing saints, who wouldn't hurt a fly, and paid more to the Gov than they got from it. They all voted Dem and love Obamacare, no doubt, no matter how "conservative" they otherwise pretend to be. /s
The guys who drop that kind of money probably weren't the grunts on the front lines, getting shot or blown up. Probably in some safe, cozy office job... shuffling paper. These civil service guys are experts at collecting and living off the Gov, not experts in paying, designing, building, creating or risking own capital in the private economy. And then they still bitch about "taxes". Fucking two-faced hypocrites!
you don't know nothin'...
" OldFarts that lived off their Big-Gov scams most of their lives ..."
You continuously post such drivel regarding senior citizens. Big Gov scams most of their lives, huh? Scams like working, saving and paying taxes? If your from Davis then I can understand your libtard screed in which you repeat this shit like it's profound wisdom. You've drunk the cool-aid. Tell me about the scams. And please use your cliche phrases like BigAg, BigPharm and other hackneyed "programs". And please provide examples how Old Farts benefit from BigAg for instance. Your demagoguery regarding the elderly is aligned with Nazi rheotoric regarding Jews, gypsies and Poles. When can we expect your "Kristallnacht"?
The RV dealer here opened up a huge ass complex with a lot of inventory maybe 5-7 years ago... however, a few years ago the whole thing went up in flames, literally... The next round of inventory was... smaller.
You get up arrowed for use of "mobility bling".
So, no more retirees doing the olde Walter White trick?
Then it's good for the children.
Bam!
Bad for the nest egg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEGbL_DR_Ng
Recent story said the CARLYLE GROUP was looking to invest in trailer parks. How bad does the outlook for this country have to be when that is on the table for that group? RV would sure beat a tent and campstove. FORWARD!
As long as the young people keep paying the welfare bill for the OldFarts "RV" nation will continue.
The OldFarts have the best welfare scam ever implimented, well besided Big-MIC of course.
Well young people voted for Obama. I am getting mine - because I earned it. I paid into Social Security and Medicare for 50 years! We baby boomers built this country - we are the chosun generation!
Oh and we went to Woodstock (even though all the bands sucked at Woodstock except The Who)! F yu!
(sarc)
We baby boomers built this country - we are the chosun generation!
-lol what bullshit.... babyboomers are net takers and built jackshit... previous generations (war of independence, guilded age, & WWII) were the real builders & heros.... as for the bboomers.... 80-90% are hippie-potheads, union leeches, & lazy sob's mostly members of the f$a
and maybe the other 10 - 20% are producers....
buncha whiners.....
real solution is out of USA, oh wait, never mind stay in USA the future is there....
[shhhhh don't give away secrets, let them think they are.... 'xceptional] -lol
I already told my old folks that I'm cutting them off. One saved a good nest egg, the other didn't (but will probably die from the cancer sticks soon) save anything at all.
"I also observed that much of the local economy in many areas was based on recreation: fishing, housing and feeding visitors to state and national parks"
You feed visitors to the parks? So that is what they eat
Yep it's right there on ACA page 12,548 paragraph 3; "...and all visitors over 65, or those that appear over 40 and slightly winded, shall be fed to yon National Park, so saith Lord Obama, peace be unto him."
It's all over.
I never saw the point of buying an RV for most people. For the cost of gas, the cost of RV payments, and the cost of insurance, virtually everyone would be ahead money driving to the same destination in a nice car and staying at the Marriott along the way. If you want to drive the Alaska Highway and not worry about pitching a tent, that's cool, and it's on my list of things to do someday, but that's what RV rental is for.
Better yet buy a Sailboat, then ditch the house and property taxes!
good luck finding a decent slip
The Mrs and I decided to get one after the TSA swabbed my terrified 2 yr old son's cast for explosives. I'm not ever flying again, and I'd rather sleep in a bed that 1000's of people haven't fucked on. I've found some really disgusting things in hotels over the years - even the $200+ per night ones. It also dubs as the bug-out buggy. To each his own though.
Drive or take a train to the retiree expat haven at lake chapala mexico.
2 bdroom 2 bath house rents for $150. Year round 75 degs so no heat or air con reqd so utils $15/mo, incl wifi. It's so overwhelmingly expat that the locals all have some english, too.
THAT is where the retirees are going. They aren't going to stay in the US.
I'm not ever flying again, and I'd rather sleep in a bed that 1000's of people haven't fucked on.
me too! last time i got on a plane was 2009, tsa woman could not stop running her hands all over my body, my husband was furious, but we were helpless. not going to submit to that again.
so now, when we travel, we do it in a van that contains our bed and our kitchen and gets 30+mpg (diesel). it's the only way to travel.
6 to 8 miles a gallon and a typical 40 gallon tank and out West called it average 4 bucks a gallon.
Park fees, RV ground fees, etc.
Sounds like god damn purgatory to me.
Yeah, it's a racket. Fortunately KoA sites are relatively low cost, but Teddy Rosevelt's national parks sure as hell aren't free to the public.
Get over it, it's just another way for the stupid consumers to burn money.
"6 to 8 miles a gallon and a typical 40 gallon tank ............................."
When driving a RV it's not miles p/gallon it's smiles p/gallon. I would'nt trade my RV for anything.
I've been commenting to many people in my "circle" about this for about 5 years now. Our crew is a race going crew in the Tampa, FL area. Every years for many years we've rented RV's at least 2 times a year for the Sebring race and for the Atlanta Petit Le Mans race. Up until about 5 years ago we were paying an arm and a leg during and having to call even out of state sometimes to try and find a decent RV for those 2 big race weekends. ***Don't forget though, that Florida has many weekends of big events that are huge for RV rentals, but these were our 2 main ones.
Anyways...many times we've always talked about just pitching in and buying an RV to get around all the hassel of renting one when we needed it. But now RV's are a dime a dozen on our big race weekends. Now we don't have any problems finding what we need and the prices have come down some.
This is mostly in part becauase gas prices has nearly doubled...but also a lot of people can't afford those kinds of extra costs anymore. Many in Florida don't have a job and if they do they have to save every penny.
Thus, RV sales have dropped big time in Florida and there's a glut on the market of private RV's for sale or rent that compete against the typically high dealer prices/rates.
We no longer even go to the Petit Le Mans in Atlanta anymore just because of the massive gas costs to get there and back to Tampa. But Sebring over the last 4 years has been easy for us to find a nice big new RV for rent when in days past it was impossible.
I've said that the RV market is going to crash around here...I see dealers around with hundreds if not over 1000 RV's sitting and I know the dealers are struggling to turn anything over.
There's still a lot of big money out there though with big time motor coaches and buses as well as nice big RV's. But I can tell that attendance to the big races has dropped of quite a lot. It's not just retirees who aren't RV'ing...it's a large swath across the board of folks who have had to stop due to this horrible depression.
Did two RV trips out west, this summer and the previous one. Have you seen some of the Behemoths on the road? There are RVs selling in excess of $250,000....used. That and some get maybe 7-10 mpg.
Since I sleep in a tent anyway (these trips are "male bonding" for my father, brother and myself) there's no need for that third bed and we're going for more fuel economy summer 2014.
You can find deals at a lot of RV rental places. Some will even give a gas credit, or say 1,000 free miles. With Cruise America (and another company out there) you can actually deliver their newly manufactured RVs to the retail sites for them with a very cheap rental cost ($12/day instead of a hundred or more plus a gas credit) or take some of their older ones from the rental pads back to their home plant for refurbishing for even less. It works for them since they don't have to pay for a driver.
Do you have to call them to get those sweet deals on one-way delivery, or do they show up on the website somewhere?
Both. You need to book in early to mid June to be in time for delivery. I'd say call them for now to see what can be done. I doubt they would have units/schedules web listed this early.
The only thing you don't choose is starting and ending destination. But between that you should have ample mileage to go wherever you want (the longer the trip, say if it was 1,000 strait there you might be allowed 3,000 before you start paying 40¢/mile; which is plenty of free mileage) which allows you to go off the beaten path for most of your trip.
With Cruise America you will most likely start or end at their Phoenix plant depending on whether or not you're dropping off or delivering a newbie. This is good if you're flying since Phoenix is a decent sized hub. Plus the Brooklyn guy gave us a free ride to the Airport, but we tipped him and gave him our leftover food and TP.
There's another shop in Decatur Indiana. Still can't think of the name, and I'll look it up now. They do the same "take our brand new RVs to their retail/rental pads" deals. Like I said, works for them since they're not paying a driver and you're basically renting an RV for almost free (maybe $100ish for a whole week).
Oh stop complaining. Can you imagine the parts on those Audis or Porsche GT3s or maybe a Ferrari 458 that might be racing at Sebring. The parts prices on the street cars are now astronomical.
The neighbors got a 458 and another has a McLaren Mp12c. F them!
I'm another Tampa Bay resident and Sebring attendee. I would agree that the drop in attendance in the last 3 years has been significant. Last year was shocking, to be honest. I think some of that is also probably due to the death of ALMS (RIP). Our crew is pretty pissed off about that and I expect race attendance to drop even more this year. We bought an RV from Lazydays recently and I can tell you they move a lot of units.
We're usually causing a ruckus over at turn 7. See you there in March.
Good to see another ZH'er and Sebring-goer on here. We're usually set up at Beer Town in Green Park. I agree about the drop in attendance due to the ALMS "death". RIP for sure on that, man. I still don't know what to think about it...I guess we'll just have to deal with it like all the other changes over the years, lol. But it's gonna be very strange not seeing the Audi's and the other LMP1 cars and seeing the DP's mixed in with the rest of them next year.
We go to the Daytona 24HR every year as well, but not with an RV. We always have infield parking at Beer Town (same crew as at Sebring). But they've really screwed up the infield parking situation and I hear it's sold out already, so we don't know how we're going to play this out since we have so much gear that we usually drive in to the Beer Town camp.
I actually work in the RV industry and see sales numbers nationwide. RV Sales have been up more than 15% each year since 2009.
That's what QE Infinity can do.
I would love to have a small pickup, but I can't find any that have under 100,000 miles and I'd ideally like to have one with under 50,000.
A bonafide Datsun would be ice cream on the cake.
W74..true enough, a clean ToyotaTacoma with over 100k on the odo is in excess of $12k USD. The shocker? Head to foreign pickuptruck websites, like the new Ford Ranger now manufactured in Rayong, Thailand! Incredible truck with a 2.2 liter Turbo diesel "common raiL" (in line) 4 cylinder engine. ALL foreign pickup trucks have compact diesel engines that get 40+mpg. Not available in USA due to EPA mandates. Sucks.
Oh I know. We made 40 mpg diesels back in the 70s. Big oil killed that. What the fuck is wrong with us?
In other news: I just thought of a way we can finally put Al Gore to use.
How deep do you need to search to find the connection between the EPA, and an oil company?
In Europe, they worry about tailpipe particulate emissions. In Amerika they worry about a particular gas.
What makes more sense in reducing smog, particulates, or a gas? Besides that, There haven't been any real fuel mileage improvements in over 25 years. My 81 Chev C10 gets over 20mpg. just as good as some $30,000 computerized piece of shit that GM makes today - and I can do all the repairs myself. Oy Vey!
Normally, I enjoy CHS articles but this one just seems like bitching.
So you are saying, "A reduction in retirees' disposable income coupled with a global rise in the price of oil could crimp the assumptions underpinning RV Nation." isn't a particularly insightful thought???
Agreed.
It is what happens when you are paid to write frequently. You get drivel.
RV travel is for morons. Hell yeah, let's pay the equivalent of a mortgage or a private college education for a modern, shabbily-built home on wheels that sucks up as much gas as a tractor trailer and then pay $40 a day to park it on a 10'x40' patch of scrubby land so we can say we're "camping". And fuck yeah, let's pay extra for water and utility hookups and septic drainage and maintaining that metal roof with seams that leak like Hitlery's cunt. And OMG yes, I want to pay those enormous vehicle registration fees! And who wouldn't want to pay extra for toll roads, where you get charged per axle? Sign me up for this bitchez!
Please. Pay $300 for a nice tent and $20 for a cheap campsite, or pay $100 for a bedbug-free hotel room. Don't lumber about the country in a land-bound humpback whale for your recreational needs.
I refuse to pay for a campsite. I'll just go camp in the boonies. I don't like being next to people when I'm camping anyway, and campsites tend to have other people. I go camping either to get away, or to hunt. Speaking of, I need to replace the shift fork pads in my t-case and the u-joints in my front axle before my next hunt.
I hear you. My idea of camping is plopping my tent just off a trail. For people with kids and squeamish women, though, campgrounds are easier.
LOL! Nice rant and accurate too. RV's are almost a stupid tax. I drive past one area of town that is not very nice and you see oldsters in mega expensive RVs. I don't get it. My guess is their children and grandchildren will get it.
Domestic natural gas (natty) is priced much lower than natty on the global market, but oil is priced (with some variation) globally, which means that domestic oil production will be priced on the global market, not the domestic market.
That means that any global shortage or supply disruption of oil will push prices higher in the U.S., regardless of any relative abundance of oil domestically.
What Charles' completely misses is that oil prices will be rising for 2 reasons - they are priced in fiat US$ which are devalued like a drunken sailor and Peak Oil.
Peak Oil does not mean we are running out of oil but that the low hanging fruit is gone, ie, long past the days of $50/BO.
His statment re: oil prices will be pushed higher regardless of any abundance of oil in US is completely false and without basis. To-Wit: the "natty gas" industry domestically.
Horizontal, Multi-stage fraccing (new technology) has cratered US NG Prices (Notably NOT Asian or EU NG Prices) to the point that the us domestic companies are actually producing and selling NG below its' replacement costs currently and trying like hell to get exports to Asia and EU increased. This will not last for long but it is an ephemeral fact just as lower oil prices domestically would be a fact IF AND ONLY IF the industry could economically supply the US with $50 oil - which it cannot due to Peak Oil, ie, the remaining discoveries will be from much higher-cost sources like offshore, shales, tight conventional reservoirs, etc.
I have done a lot of RV'ing so I want to say something about the RV community.
First thing, most, if not all of the serious RV'ers I know bring along what they call a "Dinghy" which is a small high-gas mileage car for running the daily errands and doing local trips and such. The "monster" low gas mileage RV only gets moved once a month or so.
The RV life is a very cheap and efficient, low-footprint lifestyle, as living in an RV does not encourage the accumlation of "junk" like having a house does. The entire RV can be efficiently powered by a singly 20 amp or 30 amp outlet, as all ofthe appliances are energy saving and / or have alternate energy sources.
It's also really cheap, 400 a month for a decent RV site, all utilities included, so a senior can confortably live in an RV on SS.
Some points others made:
For the cost of gas - Not really much of an issue if you only move once in a while
The cost of RV payments - Slightly used RV's go for 50% of list, 5+ years old go to 75% sometimes
The cost of insurance - Hmmm, I find the cost pretty low, maybe some of the newer ones havereally high fees.
All good points.
I've never RVed, but a friend of mine here at work did it for a couple of years after retirement. They owned at least two of those things; IIRC the second one bought new on trade.
And their's were bigguns'; avg. mpg in the 6mpg range. But one doesn't move them that often. They really are something like a movable house. Once it's parked, it ain't goin' nowhere for at least a couple of weeks at the shortest.
And they learned all about the multiple maintanence problems inherent in a "house that moves", etc.
And they had a great time traveling all over the country. And there isn't a single thing that anyone would consider to be stupid or low class about either of these people. They were both very well educated and both retired from good jobs and used their own hard earned money and no one paid for any of it for them.
the motorcycle has replaced the motor home. my neighbor has a really nice RV (which he used for an office when he was on the jobsite. now that he's retired he still has the RV, although he doesn't use it often) mostly these things sit, rather than move. ( I have another friend who rents out his home half the year and lives in his RV, out of financial necessity) in some ways its not too hard to imagine todays RV as the same vehicle the Joads came west in during the dust bowl, a desperate packing up of all of the families belongings before drifting off to the easy life in California. (allusions to wealth in this economy were meant to be dashed)
+1 on the motorcycle. I've owned a dr650 (dualsport) for the past few years, and pack or bungy all my camping gear on it. The off-road capability makes stealth camping easier if needed.
Grateful y Cameldojo +5 on the dual sport being the new RV. I have a motorbike addiction at owning 4. My buds have over 20 motorbikes apiece!
USA is great for buying a good used Suzook DR650, KLR650, Honda XR650L, KTM anything, on and on...Check eBay if you know your bikes. My 650L was had for $2k with less than 1k miles. It is $7k now new from Honda! My 650L gets 53mpg. I added a big tank. I refuse to fill up my car or truck...except when the roads turns to glass from ice!
Good call on America finally catching onto motorbikes...scooter maybe as in Asia?
NotAMathWhiz is spot on...RV companies in Elkhart, Indiana were the first to go bust. Big-assed gas hog vehicles that might get 10mpg rolling downhill. The parking/overnight slots have zoomed up in price. Yet they are free at the parking lots of WalMart--is that not telling in and of itself? This death knell of RV Nation has been known by the various RV manufacturers for a long time. Late 1990 marketing studies depicted Baby Boomers NOT picking up the RV habit from their "greatest generation" folks. The Greatest Generation felt hemmed in by mortages, kids and longed for the gypsy life of the road. Boomers used to tent camping in National Parks feel it is repugnant to be in such a vehicle for long periods of time. Ever drive in one of those monstrosities? Gross. Easy to get seasick. A real joy to flush out the turd tank
In a way, a grave similarity can be drawn between boats and RVs: easy enough to obtain one, tough as nails to ditch 'em. Both are best enjoyed in a safe harbor over drinks and NOT underway from point A to B. If any reader is near the Arizona. California border, you owe it to yourself to head to Quartzite, Arizona between November and May! Oh My Buddah! What was once a wintertime watering hole for elders retiring to the "good life" can be found there. Do your own sociological research. More than haunting and sobering.
As a PS, abandoned RVs are now being occupied by homeless folks who'd been priced out of the apartment market. Many buddies and I have carried on the following discourse for years: "...when is an RV squatting and destitute and when does it become "Happy Motoring" in Kustler's words?" We reckon it all boils down to the POR...price of rig.
If under $50k, sorry, you are squatting. ClassWarfare America!
Is $25 per night for a nice spot at an RV park too much for you? Price is not zooming up, you are full of it.
Quartzite. I was sittin here trying to think of the name of that damn place. Been there seen that. Never met a bunch or more rude old timers anywhere else. They think they own the place, and all the businesses therein. I was a truck driver for awhile, stopped at a local eatery one night for some grub. Standing in line, these fuckin old farts would come up and just take cuts right in front of me, as if I did not exist. Finally had to tell them "hey old man, the back of the line is that way". If looks could kill.
I'll be doing good to never see that damn place again in this life. Hoipe they all went broke, lost all their money, and are stuck up north in the cold this winter.
Gee whiz this sounds like a perfect opportunity to roll out nat gas powered RVs.
Get AARP to lobby for a network of refilling stations along interstates, maybe campgrounds can do likewise. Done.
I mean come on. We have 100,000 problems but this a'int a one.
For chrissakes who can even afford one?
Re: For chrissakes who can even afford one?
Anybody in the top 10% could buy one for cash and probably not think it about it much.
Anybody in the top 20% could buy one if they wanted it.
LOTS of people buy them, only use them for a season or so, decide they don't like the lifestyle, then dump them. So, you can get them used at great prices.
It's like buying a boat, only stupid fuckers with too much money and wanting to brag buy it new.
funny you say that about boats, the only used item that Las Vegas pawn shop on TV won't buy is a boat. the kid bought one once, and considered himself lucky to get out of the deal even.
RVs suck. Look up the price of a "camp" spot + hook up fees. It's more than a medium grade motel. Plus, you can't maneuver easily around gas pumps or parking spaces. And have you ever seen them chugging 5 miles per hour up a mountain road? Suck.
I plan on doing a lot of road tripping in a pickup with a camper cap, or a small SUV + light trailer. You get a place to sleep in bad weather, and you can move around easily. Motel every few days when you need a break.
A "reduction in retirees' disposable income" would be a welcome move. They are the rich, many on union pensions, government pensions that the rest of us will never see, houses paid off, money in the bank.
This economy is a fraud. It cheats, steals and manipulates. Tell me WHY some can make $20-$30-$40-$50 and hour, full-time, with no threat of someone coming along and underbidding for their job...the system and governments protect high wage earners from labour competition and pensioners from financial reality.
Retirees are wealthy. Anyone with a full-time job is wealthy. Time for either massive price inflation to cut their incomes, or for bankruptcy of private pension schemes.
We need a return of 2008.
Pure shit at this stage. Trash Kulture for a people in descent. What a legacy to leave history. Where are the neck and arm tats, asscracks, gogarts for the morbidly obese?
It can start to be good again when this entire Kulture is consigned to the landfill of oblivion. The Amerikan unwashed class is the greatest waster of earth's bounty ever, childlike, greedy, venal, ugly. They are like a swarm of mealworms.
Many years ago, Paul Hawken - one of the few economic writers who has also created and run several successful businesses - coined the term "the europeanization of America." His premise was that was as we age as a nation, we'll have more euro-centric values. I found it a hopeful vision. The average European uses roughly half the energy and land of an average American, but has a more satisfying life. The RV phenom neatly summarizes the difference. I think it is beyond question that the average European, camping in a tent and cooking over a small campstove, enjoys his holiday more than the average American piloting a gas-sucking, breakdown-prone behemoth across our crumbling infrastructure. That younger generations of Americans would not think of owning one of these monstrosities is a positive sign.
Bbbbbut, the American Way of Life is NON-NEGOTIABLE!
I remember when CHS used to write interesting relevant articles. Yawn.
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Just wait!
If you all shut up for a moment, and listen, real closely, you'll hear the $‡Ï†®@†$ talking about pricing NG in global prices.
What for it…
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V-V
Not sure about this. I love my RV. There is NOTHING I love more than loading that puppy up and hitting the open road. Total freedom. You need no hotel reservation. Hotels charge a LOT and you get very little. With an RV you can see what you want, do what you want, stay anywhere, cook your meals (our RV has a fantastic kitchen), can cook ANYTHING! and the food always tastes better when it's been cooked in your RV. You go to an RV park and KICK BACK AND RELAX.
Also, the RV community is very friendly, always waving to others. Ready for conversation. And don't kill the messenger these are all white people. Someone should do a study on this because there is some strange racial component going on. I have been involved with RVs for a long time and I have never seen a single black family in an RV. Never. Asians? Forget it. Mexicans, yeah they dig RVs but Mexicans are just as cool as anyone. I figure blacks just don't like the idea of parking and setting up. You have to get out, plug things in, hook stuff up, pull out the awning, get out the mat, then you have to spend time neatly putting everything back in an organized place before you move along. It's an exercise in "INDEPENDENCE" and that is a foreign concept to sheep Asians as well. Probably the only Asians that use RVs are people who do it in a group of 12 rigs at once, but that's pretty tough to do in a 34' Class A. Thus no Asians.
Another point on this topic. RV living is EXTREMELY CHEAP, and I even hesitate to post this here because no doubt some stinkers will try to figure out a new tax. But all you need is a $30,000 trailer, and $30,000 buys one hell of a trailer. Park it at an "RV RESORT" that allows longterm residents. They allow you hookup to their sewer and electric, and rents are about $400 per month! That's it!! And you can live totally incognito. There are people living for years in their trailer, sewer and electric fully paid, $400 a month, no prop taxes, and plenty of good conversation.
RV Nation is probably going to grow, as more people learn to enjoy the freedom and, for many, the relatively low monthly cost of living the dream.
I've been making some good cash flipping RV's for a couple of years. The happy couple spend good cash on an RV, the divorced or overleveraged couple sells an RV for good prices.
That brings up another point. I love repairing RVs. I don't mean exhaust leaks or head gaskets. I mean the plumbing, the stove, the hot water heaters, the circuit boards, the charging systems. Give me a warm sunny day and a problem to fix on my RV and I am at the pinnacle of happiness. Tinker man heaven.
And yes, you can find all kinds of people selling their hardly used RVs for nothing! Huge variation. Be careful of the gypsies of course, selling ransacked garbage on wheels. But yeah you can find people who paid a fortune for an RV 8 years ago now selling the same rig hardly used for under $10k. If you're lucky it needs some easy fix so you can get the price lower.
The neighborhood covenants are another big bonus. Many people live in neighborhoods that prohibit RVs. What a crock of shit. So they have to pay $125 per month to store their RVs in a parking lot, they get tired of that and sell for pennies on the dollar their mint RV.
There is really nothing more cool than RV nation living and this conversation makes me pissed off that summer is over and my RV needs to be winterized. One more adventure.... please.....
Yeah man....winterizing mine this weekend. My latest "steal" is a 2001 22' Class C in great shape, 40K miles, 27 hours on the generator...all for $8k. Someone already offered me 12k for it. I'm holding on to this one for a while though, it is small enough I can get into some awesome places around CO and UT.
22' is a little small for us now but yeah that sounds like a great rig, and the small rv get better prices & stronger demand. Winter is a good time to pick up a deal or two.... I have a few favorites to find, if they appear I might buy...
Buy an Airstream, or better yet fix up an old one. Lots of places to hide gold and duns and ammo and stuff like that.....
Or go hog wild and live like the 1%'ers
http://www.youexif.com/photo/41064
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What could be more fun?
We've been through all this in the 70s. Gas crisis killed RVing and travelling (twice). If you had a nice motorhome or trailer everyone gave you the stink eye like you were some gas guzzling millionaire.
Until you explained that you sold your house when you retired and your RV was your full time, year round home. It consumed far less energy than even a modest house. And that you could drive down south for the winter and didn't have to heat a house, and the fuel you consumed driving was less than you burned to heat your house.
On the whole you consumed a fraction of the energy you did when you lived in a house and have the freedom to go where you like and do as you please.
RVs are often large and luxuriously appointed ... Pickup trucks have also grown in size and power, and an entire new class of large vehicles--SUVs
That's all nothing, unless you drive a large RV and pull your SUV on a trailer behind it.
Why dont you by cars that run on natural gas. Mercedes sells a NG version of its B-Class car.
I hitch hike around the world using space available on military flights. The neat thing is you never know where you might end up. Just take the first flight out of where you are to where ever it's going. Then I use the internet to find cheap places to stay, or check in to facebook to squat with friends from the past.
I'd go broke if I tried doing the RV life. The price just got too high.
What a one-sided and poorly researched article. Obviously this clown hasn't been to an RV dealer to look at floor stock. You can find basic vacation rigs for younger families all the way up to unbelievably luxurious bus chassis motor homes.
Yes, a huge motor home can be considered an RV, but so can the smaller pop-ups and hybrid rigs. Those can be seen by the dozens on weekends - and being pulled by smaller mid sized SUV's and half-ton crew cab trucks. One hot new segment is the Class B on the Sprinter body. That 5 cylinder diesel is pretty economical and they provide adequate room for a couple on a weekend jaunt.
We moved up to a 30' Terry Quantum5'er last year. It is an '04 model, and in great shape. We only paid $11K, and when being pulled by one of our two diesel 3/4 tom trucks, we usually get about 12 m.p.g. Of course that isn't when you have a 60 mph headwind in New Mexico.
We usually stay at the state parks, and with an annual membership in Texas, you only have to pay for the site. That is usually around $12 (water/electric) to $16 (full hookups). There are some really nice upscale RV parks out there if you want to pamper yourself. My personal favorite is Fort Wilderness.
You don't have to be some rich old retiree in a monstrous motor home to be the owner of an "RV".
The RV industry took a real shellacking in 2007 and 2008, but the manufacturers that are left are better positioned to ride out another downturn in sales. Quality has really improved too. The aluminum framing on my RV is much sounder than the wooden framing on the '99 Mallard 235M we sold.
It is almost as if this guy is trying to promote class warfare. Is he trying to insinuate that we should snub RV owners as wasteful and excessive users of natural resources? ones whose days are numbered due to some cataclysm on the horizon? Jeez, we hang out with others that have 20 year old travel trailers and older truck campers. It's so typical for an uninformed writer to paint everyone with such a broad brush.
Bug out bus:
http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=23087.150
How much are houses going for in Detroit? Maybe Detoit homes will be the next RV or trailer park.