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Obamacare's Website Debacles Migrate To Paper, Pen And Phone

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The rollout of Obamacare to date has been, as many predicted, the case study of everything that is wrong with a mandatory government-conceived, supervised and enforced program. Ignoring for a minute the daily embarrassment the Obama administration has to face with the well-documented failings of the HealthCare.gov website which on second glance should win Obama the Nobel Price for coding in Fortran (or  Cobol), and which seems set for a full-blown overhaul that would force a delay of the mandate whether Obama wants it or not, the several million "glitchy" lines of code have become the greatest gift the GOP could have asked for. A gift, which as the saying goes, keeps on giving. Because one of Obama's suggested loopholes has been to advise people who can't or won't sign up online, to do so using old-fashioned means: by paper, pen or phone. Unfortunately, that's where the rabbit hole just goes deeper, because as Politico reports, the glitches that started on line have rapidly shifted to the world of phone and mail, as virtually every pathway of enrolling into the enforced healthcare program is now hopelessly bottlenecked, if not entirely shut.

From Politico:

With the supposedly state-of-the-art $600 million HealthCare.gov portal malfunctioning, President Barack Obama is urging Americans to go ahead and try to get health coverage by mailing in a paper application, calling the helpline or seeking help from one of the trained “assisters.”

 

But the truth is those applications — on paper or by phone — have to get entered into the same lousy website that is causing the problems in the first place. And the people processing the paper and calls don’t have any cyber secret passage to duck around that. They too have to deal with all the frustrations of HealthCare.gov — full-time.

True. But at least Obamacare's failure means way more government jobs as the demand for people with the absolutely most basic set of rudimentary skills - being able to concurrently listen and/or read and type has soared. Which in an insolvent welfare state - with or without a ministry of happiness - is all one can ask for: more stimulus for everyone... especially if due to the same state's gross incompetence in doing one thing right.

As for Obamacare, the hits just keep on coming:

“I feel like we’re sort of back in the era of control-alt-delete where we’re trying to figure out the different tricks that facilitate people’s enrollment,” said Jennifer Ng’andu, director of health policy for the National Council of La Raza, a Hispanic advocacy group that has been helping to publicize the Affordable Care Act.

 

The administration for the first time on Friday said it expected the health exchange website serving 36 states should be in good shape in about a month. “We’re confident by the end of November, HealthCare.gov will be smooth for a vast majority of users,” said Jeff Zients, the former White House aide and management expert brought into oversee the repair drive.

 

But for now, with HealthCare.gov crippled by design flaws and a morass of messy code, the president and health officials have been using a variety of posts and announcements to urge people to try low-tech ways of enrolling. Basically they are saying while the front door is stuck, try the side.

This is where it gets really funny:

Of course, reading an 800 number on national TV — as the president did in the Rose Garden the other day — created a flood of callers who couldn’t get through. That led to another wave of frustration and Obamacare punch lines. But Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius tweeted on Thursday that HHS bulked up the call center to include more than 10,000 trained representatives.

 

POLITICO reporters who got recorded announcements earlier in the week — sometimes directing them to try HealthCare.gov — can now get through to the call center. Once they connect, staffers like “Justin” try to get people’s information into the online system.

 

But “Justin” doesn’t have a fast track. Asked if the website works better for him than the general public, he responded: “No.”

 

“The site does not work for us either,” he said.

Raucous laughter aside, there really are no words to describe the gross incompetence that has been revealed, even if many knew long ago that when the government really sets its mind to it, it can screw something up better than the entire private sector possibly ever could.

And since there are no words, back to the raucous laughter:

Sometime, the call center staff can get in and process the application while the caller waits. If not, the staff can take the information, put it in a PDF and finish later. Even then, it’s just the application — once that’s processed, the customer still has to call back or get online to select the specific health plan they want and enroll.

 

People do not have to stay on hold indefinitely — a good thing because Sebelius said earlier in the week that the center has handled about 1.6 million calls.

 

It’s similar in the world of paper applications.

Even before the tech problems, the government had a private contractor, Serco, to handle paper applications, which were expected to come primarily from less Web-savvy people. On Thursday, the company’s program director John Lau told the House Energy and Commerce Committee that it had completed between 3,000 and 4,000 applications.

 

Lau said the company does have the capacity to handle more than what’s expected — a paper surge. But he also said the customer’s data has to be entered into the Web portal and hinted there could be problems if volume dramatically increases. Lau didn’t say how long that takes, but a customer service representative said it would take about three weeks to complete the enrollment process.

 

“Our challenges have included coping with the performance of the portal as that is our means of entering data just as it is for the consumer,” Lau said, referring to HealthCare.gov. “With the relatively low volumes of applications we have received thus far, this has not been a problem for us.”

 

But Serco will be flooded with paper applications if the website glitches persist, predicted John Gorman, founder of the Gorman Health Group, which has advised some of the insurance exchanges. “Serco is going to be swimming in paper within the next two to three weeks,” he said.

Sounds like a hint for the US Vice Ministry of Supreme Social Happiness to enforce the directive that swimming in paper equates to at least 8 out of 10 hedons on the happiness scale. Otherwise, some subversive, terrorist tea-party elements may float the wild suggestion that epic government failure may not equate to joy.

Finally, and it goes without saying, at this point there is no way Obamacare's initial enrollment target of 7 million Americans over the next 5 months ca realistically be achieved.

Health industry experts have serious doubts about whether these quaint tools could get the Obama administration a good way toward its first-year enrollment target of 7 million Americans in the exchanges by the end of March.

 

There’s no way a call center can handle 7 million enrollees between now and March,” said Dan Schuyler, director of exchange technology for Leavitt Partners.

 

The National Council of La Raza, Ng’andu’s group, has been working with navigators and assisters, more of whom are getting certified every day to help people sign up. They’re getting the clear message from the administration — only use paper applications if nothing else works.

 

“We’ve been strongly urged to enroll people online and the paper application is the last resort,” said Michele Cullen, manager of the navigator program for the Genesis Health System in Illinois and Iowa.

...

 

The approaching Dec.15 deadline to get coverage starting Jan. 1, combined with the paper and call center challenges, have left advocates trying to enroll people any way they can while keeping their fingers crossed that HealthCare.gov will improve.

 

“At this point, we’re three weeks into enrollment,” Ng’andu said. “We’re not going to wait. … From our perspective, we need to get individuals informed. We need to get them shopping.”

Shopping... with a gun to their head. But stepping back from the glitchy trees and looking at the forest of errors, one wonders how long before Obama instructs the GOP to shut down the government once more with the same demand as last time: delay Obamacare.

One wonders if Obama's agreeing to all GOP demands would be measured in hours or in minutes this time around. Then again, one doesn't - after all it's nothing but more political theater.

As for the ordinary American man or woman, well they too have a recourse. Just dial: 1-800-F U-CKYO

 

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Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:39 | 4093306 B2u
B2u's picture

I asked if I needed to sign up for health care.  I was told 800-FUCKYOu.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:54 | 4093344 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture

The only people who are rushing to sign up need 10s of thousands of dollars of medical care.  Everyone else is saying, fuck obamacare.   The end result will undoubtedly be failure on a massive scale.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:22 | 4093421 Bad Attitude
Bad Attitude's picture

It is going to get even worse. Assuming people are able to successfully sign up for Obamacare, will they be able to find a doctor who takes their Obamacare insurance? Will doctors who refuse to take Obamacare insured patients be labeled terrorists and traitors by the regime?

Doctors are certainly considering alternatives to their current medical practices. This past week, I was visiting my cardiologist. I started asking questions about the medications I take and the suitability of substitutes in light of the damage Obamacare is expected to cause to the practice of medicine. I said I might not be able to afford my medications if I have to buy airline tickets to Costa Rica to see him. He simply replied "Ireland."

Forward (over the cliff)!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:32 | 4093450 knukles
knukles's picture

The website is but a symptom of the problems.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:40 | 4093471 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Funny EH...

The NSA Seems To Work Absolutely FLAWLESSLY.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:45 | 4093484 knukles
knukles's picture

Wait....
So she said that there were 1.6 million people who called in last week?
But but but, official policy is that no numbers are to be released, so are we to assume that this number is not true?

Betcha most of those 1.6 million calls concluded in mumbling, cursing, throwing shit and hanging up in absolute disgust and anger.

So we have TBTF banks buying the TBTF government, regulating the TBTF banks for the TBTF governments benefit.  Or some such shit.

Gordian Knot of Tyranny

 

 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:01 | 4093507 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

""The only people who are rushing to sign up need 10s of thousands of dollars of medical care. ""

The OMAMBA Care People Constantly Say That All Healthy Young People Must Sign Up For The System To Work!

Why The Fuck Should Healthy Young People Spend Thousands A Year For Healthcare That They Most Probably Will Not Need??????????

Young People Should Be Saving This Money Or Putting It Down On A House, Paying Down DEBT  Etc...

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:04 | 4093535 macholatte
macholatte's picture

 

Speaking of New Normal……. And the “cost” of Obamacare……

Toni Townes-Whitley, Princeton class of ’85, is senior vice president at CGI Federal, which earned the no-bid contract to build the $678 million Obamacare enrollment website at Healthcare.gov.

Michelle Obama’s Princeton classmate is executive at company that built Obamacare website

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/25/michelle-obamas-princeton-classmate-is-executive-at-company-that-built-obamacare-website/

 

Lawmakers: Sebelius failed at government website projects prior to serving in Obama administration

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/23/lawmakers-sebelius-failed-at-governmen...

 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:03 | 4093662 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Obamalware

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:31 | 4093713 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

i have an extra laptop that i'm using to tie up bandwidth at .gov ACA website

wont you all join me?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 18:04 | 4093958 mickeyman
mickeyman's picture

It was supposed to be written in binary. But due to budgetary constraints they only used zeroes.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 18:27 | 4093995 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

No, it's because using "1s" would be raysist!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 22:19 | 4094292 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

Here's a take on your statement.

...said Jennifer Ng’andu, director of health policy for the National Council of La Raza, a Hispanic advocacy group that has been helping to publicize the Affordable Care Act.

 Jennifer Ng'andu??? Hispanic? LA RAZA?

Sounds like a caucasian first name and a weird Negro African last name to me.

I don't mean to sound 'RAYSISS', but what is a mulatto woman who is most likely NOT 'hispanic' doing in charge of a 'Hispanic Advocasy Group' promoting 'OBAMACARE'?

HMMM. 'Barry Soetoro'. Now THERE's a true black man...

Sun, 10/27/2013 - 11:03 | 4095041 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

It was written by the same people who wrote the Common Core curriculum...

6+7=11, right?

Just so you can explain how you arrived at your conclusion.

DaddyO

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:05 | 4093665 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

No bid contract would be top of the fold in NYT articles if this were a pro American govt program, instead of a fascist one.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:07 | 4093667 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

"No bid contract" would be top of the fold in NYT articles if this were a pro American govt program gone fubar, instead of a fascist one.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 20:04 | 4094104 InvalidID
InvalidID's picture

 

 Young people should be spending that money to pay down the mountians of student loan debt they're holding....

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:46 | 4093625 divide_by_zero
divide_by_zero's picture

No releasing of real numbers, however numbers pulled out of one's ass can still be released

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 22:23 | 4094300 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

HHS bulked up the call center to include more than 10,000 trained representatives.

From India

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:57 | 4093498 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

...

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:41 | 4093464 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

...

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:33 | 4093605 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

will they be able to find a doctor who takes their Obamacare insurance?

And that, my friend, is where the wheels finally and ultimately fall off Obamacare. Denninger wrote this morning that the doctors who are willing to take Obamacare insurance are also the doctors who take Medicaid. There will be a flood of new free-shit-army folks entering into Medicaid. So, you may get your shiny, new Obamacare insurance but you may also have to wait 6 months to get a doctor's appointment.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:08 | 4093674 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Long hope and change.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 17:00 | 4093864 RichardP
RichardP's picture

will they be able to find a doctor who takes their Obamacare insurance?

 

How does one tell which is Obamacare Insurance and which is not?  Obamacare is not an insurance plan.  Those buying insurance through the exchange, even if it is subsidized, are actually buying insurance from a health insurance company.  Those purchasing healthcare insurance through the exchange will get an insurance card with the healthcare insurance company logo on it, just like those who purchase healthcare insurance outside of the exchange will have.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 22:24 | 4094303 NuckingFuts
NuckingFuts's picture

+1

There is no Obamacare insurance.  I have been offered a fair policy from a good company this week over the phone.  The fucking problem is that I need to enroll through the fucking marketplace.  If/when I purchase this policy it will say nothing about Obamacare anywhere.  THE PLANS ARE PRUCHASED PRIVATELY.  except for medicare/medicaid

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 19:25 | 4094055 Will To Live
Will To Live's picture

Seriously. Do you know any MDs that are going to go along with this system? What does the AMA say? Crickets...

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 22:26 | 4094283 scrappy
scrappy's picture

EPIC failure, the biggest I have ever seen.

The ironic thing that most of the people who will be calling them will be their own followers, and boy are they gonna learn something, eh?  ;-)

By far, the rest of the callers will be fake "conservatives" by the way.

Watch what they DO, NOT WHAT THEY SAY.

 

Sun, 10/27/2013 - 22:21 | 4096559 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Only government can make the US Mail faster than the internet,
FORWARD SOVIET!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:39 | 4093307 TeamDepends
Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:04 | 4093371 RSloane
RSloane's picture

Not really, no. This is not a surpise, its how this gov't runs.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:37 | 4093462 knukles
knukles's picture

A couple of us ZH'ers (others do read the site, gosh!) were talking about this very thing today and not a single one of us (we're all in the codger realm of experience, BTW) remember any time previous that was this corrupt and engaged in ever so openly and shamelessly.

Rub our noses it it, please, sir.

The New Normal's Modern Dispensation of Indulgences

 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:02 | 4093524 RSloane
RSloane's picture

Its all shamelessly done in the open, such as the threatnened  attack on Syria, or running guns to drug lords in Mexico, or the expansion of IRS powers, or justifying the NSA and expanding it, or using a no bid contractor to build the Obamacare website.. and the list goes on and on. With so much of the world watching, our only hope is that other leaders intervene, as they have done and will do from South America to Germany.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:29 | 4093598 Trimmed Hedge
Trimmed Hedge's picture

Well, he did promise transparency...

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:22 | 4093693 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

They didn't hide being Chicago machine politicians. The regime is lousy wih them. Jarret has had that Obama guy fronting this thing for five years and running.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:46 | 4093621 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

You don't think that is why they chose this Canadian company to get the juicy $93.7 million dollar contract, do you?

John McAfee said on Coast to Coast that the company (CGI) failed at Canadian initiatives and was accused of intentionally overcharging.  Brietbart has a story on it: 

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/10/22/Obamacare-Tech-Firm-Built-Canadian-Gun-Registry

The whole broadcast with McAfee on Coast to Coast here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGsHpcEYg8I

McAfee was quite cogent.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:05 | 4093669 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Wow Michelle Obama, you really do put the lug in slug:

http://theulstermanreport.com/2013/10/26/michelle-obama-a-progressive-sl...

That's right fat-cat Dumpocrats, write the biggest check you can!  Make it hurt!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:30 | 4093810 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

So, the Beard and Bozo got to split what, 10% of 600 million?

I wonder what offshore banks it is in.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:05 | 4093666 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

Same company is administering the Sandy relief too. Canadian based at that eh?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 20:00 | 4094098 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Canuckburton!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:42 | 4093315 NIHILIST CIPHER
NIHILIST CIPHER's picture

OBAMACARE= UNPOSSIBLE

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:07 | 4093638 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Astute Cipher.

Bottom line is easy on this one. How many fucking paying customers do you have?!! And how many leaches?

Simple arithmetic.

And for those who want a way out. The IRS cannot lien or otherwise force you to pay. They can only collect against your surplus account meaning if you carelessly overpay them, they will snatch the monies from your surplus.

The solution for W2'd peoples is to max out your deductions so as to never create a surplus of payments to the fuckers. 1099'ers know what to do so I don't need to explain.

Then never pay for the Obamacare. A big FUCK YOU for violating my constitutional rights!! A part of my new American Dream. h/t Rush.

(sidenote) be sure to structure your estate using trust law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_law

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 18:04 | 4093956 natty light
natty light's picture

Anagram generator result:

OBAMACARE <> A ACE AM ROB

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:45 | 4093317 RSloane
RSloane's picture

According to our glorious MSM this will just be further proof of how amazingly successful Obamacare is. The more people who can't create a log in name and can't fill out the forms shows how desperately the 'people' needed it.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:47 | 4093325 icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

And now the general public gets a first-hand look of what doing business in America, thus having to deal with the government, has been like these past two decades.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:49 | 4093332 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Boehner was right. Don't think that's ever happened before. That's some funny shit right there.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:53 | 4093340 Kantbelieveit
Kantbelieveit's picture

The hatred of all things governmental has become a kind of autoimmune disease in America, in which the body politic attacks its own vital organs. ZH, a site run by clever and well-educated people, seems to fan the flames of anti-government hysteria to jack up traffic so that we can all see more ads.That's the beauty of the marketplace!

Please bear in mind that national government health services are the rule, not the exception, in the most advanced countries of the world. It is only in America that we believe that the best medical care for the poor is provided in emergency wards. It is obviously cheaper to buy medicine in bulk and to have a single payer entity with dramatically less paperwork that a few hundred private insurers. The American health care troglodytes will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into a single-payer system, but it will take two more decades to overcome the disease of demonization of the government.

America's biggest health care problem is one of mental health. About a quarter of the population has been encouraged to develop an insane hatred of the Federal Government. This has been done by private sector interests who wish to impede government regulation of their industries. They don't give a flying flip for the public interest, and they are quite pleased by the results their precisely applied propaganda has achieved.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:02 | 4093363 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Pssst!  Those "civilized" countries are going to lose their government provided health care.  They cannot afford it.  They're going broke. 

 

Are you really so stupid as to believe that a government who lied to get us into Iraq, spies on us all, kicks in doors and shoots dogs and people because somebody wants to smoke weed, and cannot balance its own checkbook is to be trusted?  Seriously?  FYI, the private sector and the government are in cahoots.  Unless you want to provide proof that large corporations don't write the regulations for their own industries.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:10 | 4093390 Kantbelieveit
Kantbelieveit's picture

Since single payer health care is cheaper than the crazy-quilt of private insurance, how is it that other countries "cannot afford it?" The American yahoo hatred of national health care is just a kind of racist hostility toware the poor, whom they mistakenly believe are mostly dark-skinned. They deeply desire that poor children grow up sick and disadvantaged, and they support the private insurance health care system because it achieves that outcome.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:15 | 4093402 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Because those countries' governments are running high budget deficits.  That's why they cannot afford it.  They are going to experience a reversion to the mean one day, and a lot of services are going to go away. 

 

But now that you pulled the race card, I'm starting to believe that you aren't just some red team/blue team sheep, but instead, you might just be a troll. 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:28 | 4093805 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

EV, that is one of their keywords.

They go to "race" real quick.

Apparently, they forget idiots are found in every race.

And, what is Zero, anyway?

If we presume his Kenyan background is for real, he is only about 20% "black." The Luo Tribe was heavily interbred with Arab slave traders, so Zero's claim to being black is only due to the fact his skin pigment is darker than average europeans. He is, in fact, a mongrel, just as many of us Americans are. I have never considered him "black," as in the American Negro.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 20:57 | 4094175 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Do go look at this poster's record - a member for 1 year 14 weeks, 1 post on 10/17/2013, 6 posts today on this thread. Troll indeed.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 22:42 | 4094333 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

If you want to watch something really funny, get 'Kantbelieveit' to open this link. It's Obama's theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l46t_nrySg4

if you want to get creative, figure out a way to loop it. so everyone in his office has to stand at attention for hours on end. HELL, it might shut down Arlington AND Chantilly for hours!

Sun, 10/27/2013 - 06:41 | 4094715 butchtrucks
butchtrucks's picture

Stop making shit up El Vaquero.  Almost all countries with single-payer public health care have much lower budget deficts than the US. 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:13 | 4093403 noless
noless's picture

The united states of America is a federation of fifty countries.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:50 | 4093634 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

was. it is now an 'empire'...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F1d3QWsyk0

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:56 | 4093510 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

Emmanuel Kant argued that the welfare of the citizens cannot be the basis of state power.

I knew Emmanuel Kant. Kant was a friend of mine. You sir are no Emmanuel Kant.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:26 | 4093593 akak
akak's picture

But he is a kunt, and that's almost as good.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:42 | 4093736 starfcker
starfcker's picture

i admit i am not familiar with emmanuel kant. i will have to study up, and i will. but the premise you have him arguing is a badly flawed one. the welfare of the citizens is the only reason govornment exists. the idea of a representative democracy is that it would be a big waste of productive time if everybody had to worry about where to replace a stop sign with a traffic light. so let's pick a few decent people and have them do this sort of thing so we don't have to be bothered. our welfare (functioning roadway) is addressed. economically, same thing. politics has always been the renegotiation of resource distribution between economic winners (red team) and their workforce and losers (blue team). worked pretty well until clinton. winners and losers still ok. workers need a new team.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:59 | 4093764 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

I'm not arguing Kant's premise, simply stating it.
In Critique of Pure Reason Kant says that freedom is "independence from being constrained by another's choice”.
I have to agree.

If you are interested, here is a good place to start.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-social-political/

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:20 | 4093795 starfcker
starfcker's picture

i am interested. thx

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:18 | 4093568 yomama
yomama's picture

Tell ya what, lets first stop the American consumer's subsidizing of these 'single payer'systems by allowing for the re-importation of all pharmaceuticals and medical devices back into the US at world prices.  No reason the world shouldn't enjoy sharing in  the FULL pleasure of paying for R&D and 'profits' of the American pharmaceutical industry.  After that is done then we can discuss this 'cheaper' concept you keep mentioning......  

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:19 | 4093569 yomama
yomama's picture

And further more....ah, f'it.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:36 | 4093724 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

MDB is that you?

 

i kant believe theres no sarc tag

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:21 | 4093794 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Man, I think he dropped the brown acid.

didn't you hear the announcement over the PA?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:40 | 4093616 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

I know you are right! So, if everything is so Rosy out there, why doesn't the .fed stop QE?? Let's go from $85b/month to 0...or even start selling some stuff.

 

The system would not last a week at this point. Everyone would go bust..US, Europe, Asia, all....

 

Yep, the 'socialist' can keep talking their -ism game for now....but if you want the truth, the stop QE and see what happens....ponzi 101 will be revealed.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:04 | 4093370 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

This govt. does not act in the public interest.Only its secret masters, and its own.

Did you get lost on the way to the HuffPo ?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:06 | 4093382 RSloane
RSloane's picture

I'd say that's a yes.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:06 | 4093377 SimMaker
SimMaker's picture

Hey, Kant.

 

 

You might want to see if Obamacare offers brain implants.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:46 | 4093431 akak
akak's picture

Shouldn't be a problem --- I know of at least 535 former brain donors in Washington DC alone.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:05 | 4093773 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Plus all the voters who put Obozo back in.

Those brains should get a premium as they are unused.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:09 | 4093388 yomama
yomama's picture

Are you from the Ministry Of Supreme Happiness?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:12 | 4093394 noless
noless's picture

By all means, go state by state and set up single payer healthcare for birth citizens of the state, otherwise the lax citizenship requirements and immigration enforcement will bankrupt them.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:19 | 4093414 Jim B
Jim B's picture

Troll baby troll!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:22 | 4093423 Jim B
Jim B's picture

Is that you Barry?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:28 | 4093433 CPL
CPL's picture

It's not hatred, there are people working in there that have been completely suckered in by some fairly ridiculous logic.  Be like hating your Mum because she worked for the Government.  That's just stupid.  Why hate on, makes no sense.  They are still people and they have to earn their daily bread.  It's just at the cost of everything else isn't it?  Where does that help anything?  It doesn't 

So it's not hatred, it's a complete and total disbelief in being offered shit on toast and being told to eat it.  And  those organs you are mentioning are so pumped full of drugs with tertiary support systems working to failure right now.  Enough of the nonsense.   Instead of your clipping on, put the pin back in your own grenade and do something meaningful that helps out.  You can only blow in your own sails so long before your out of breath and feeling sick from it.  Be your own referee.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:39 | 4093470 WAMO556
WAMO556's picture

Tyler!!!

We have a government operated TROLL.

Whether a Obamabot or Feminazibot hard to tell, but definitely a TROLL! Please deal with accordingly!

Sun, 10/27/2013 - 06:46 | 4094719 butchtrucks
butchtrucks's picture

Yeah Tyler - we want our echo chamber back.  Who let this dissenting voice in here?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:37 | 4093614 Georgiabelle
Georgiabelle's picture

We don't hate government in general, we hate stupid government.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:18 | 4093792 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Hey, where do you buy your Che t-shirts?

What is the best incense to burn before your Zero Altar?

Is it true you guys have a shrine with Zero at the top flanked by Stalin and Hitler?

And, do you have to convert to homo activity to join your club? If that's the case, I'm out.

Do you live above ground, or below?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 17:04 | 4093868 g'kar
g&#039;kar's picture

Congrats, you are the first to -50 with 0 +'s.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 20:42 | 4094154 Burticus
Burticus's picture

Believe it, Kunt.

Welcome to fight club.  You just got your @$$ kicked...three times.  Better slink back into your Obomber hole.

Sun, 10/27/2013 - 13:30 | 4095345 shiftless
shiftless's picture

How much do you get paid to suck Obama's cock? Also, who gave you an upvote? One of your fellow trolls? Go fuck yourself with a sword.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:54 | 4093346 PacOps
PacOps's picture

There really must be a god. 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:55 | 4093349 noless
noless's picture

So I'm not usually too worried about personal information security, because i figure im targeted, tagged, and tracked.

But I honestly wouldn't trust this thing with my info, the whole thing is really quite terrifying viewed as a whole.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:56 | 4093350 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

I'm enjoying watching this blow up in Obama's face.  The fucker thought all he had to do was decree that it shall be done, and it would work.  It's almost like watching the fruition of a debate in an election:

 

"We need health care for all, and I have a plan to provide that."

"Fine, what is your plan to provide health care for all?"

"I have a plan to provide health care for all."

"But what is that plan?"

"The plan?  That we will have health care for all."

"Right, but how are you going to provide health care for all?"

"By providing health care for all."

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:29 | 4093437 akak
akak's picture

"So let it be written, so let it be done."

 

(I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but the pharoahs were from Africa too.)

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:23 | 4093695 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

It's funny to see the shock and disbelief in the face of the progressive socialist when simply legislating that something should end doesn't actually end it.

 

"I know, if we just require that everyone buy health insurance, we can solve the healthcare crisis!"

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:56 | 4093351 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/25/obamas-first-land-auctio...

So much for the White House dream of solar selling like hotcakes. The first federal auction run by the Bureau of Land Management to sell chances to build solar power projects on public land went completely bust on Thursday.

Nobody showed to bid.

“We did not have any bidders come to the sale, and we did not received any sealed bids on the sale,” BLM spokeswoman Vanessa Lacayo said, Denver Business Journal reported.

...

What is Charlie Sheen running the show now.

Winning.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:21 | 4093422 Yenbot
Yenbot's picture

Try to build a cabin on "Public Land", and you'll need BroCare for federally-induced gunshot wounds, homesteader. Dragon's Blood!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:57 | 4093355 Make_Mine_A_Double
Make_Mine_A_Double's picture

You could see this coming a mile away. A bunch of snot nosed, shit assed, short pants affirmative action clowns who have never worked a day in their lives.

I honestly beleive the facualty lounge Bolsheviks thought 'hey, we'll just set a app and a web sight for that!'

No bid contract to the 1st Wookie's roomate at Princeton and as usual no one vetted this Canadian outfit which is essentially barred from bids in Canada as FU'd the Firearms Registery so bad.

 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:42 | 4093477 optimator
optimator's picture

Every inch of this planned to really speed up the march to single payer plan.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:12 | 4093554 Mister Ed
Mister Ed's picture

Garbage in,  Garbage out.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:58 | 4093360 jo6pac
jo6pac's picture

I've commented on other sites that it wasn't going to work, it wasn't meant to work, and get ready to use #2 pencils and paper. It's just another way to tranfer wealth from Main Street to the 1%. I'm a memeber of the Left and I didn't vote for this corp. puppet. Medi-Care for all without corp. health care involved. They're pretty much like the tbtf slime.

 Kantbelieveit

Thanks for your comment.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:00 | 4093361 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

Wait 'till you go to the hospital....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HftRP0NAJYg

 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:01 | 4093365 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

President Obama Explains Healthcare.gov Website- Flashback| ‘This first-of-its-kind website makes it easier to find health care coverage and clearly explains how the Affordable Care Act will benefit you, your family, or your business.’

 

/lol

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:02 | 4093366 Kantbelieveit
Kantbelieveit's picture

So when do the anti-government crazies plan to blow up the Hoover Dam? When is the national Air Traffic control system going to be shut down? How about meat and poultry inspection, and other vicious Communist bureaucratic outrages? Surely the Koch Brothers can be trusted to treat the employees of their oily empire with perfect gentility once the Evil Gummint is out of their way.

I have never seen such a sad spectacle on ZH as a bunch of yahoos cheering for the failure of a government program that will extend health insurance to the poor. What kind of vicious people would take pleasure in depriving poor children of health care?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:13 | 4093395 RSloane
RSloane's picture

Obviously you've never heard of SCHIP or the numerous state sponsored programs re health care for children of poor people. Nor Medicaid. I appreciate your emo appeal though, right out of the DNC.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:15 | 4093409 Kantbelieveit
Kantbelieveit's picture

How is SCHIP doing in Texas? Oh, that's right, the welfare of children should vary from state to state. Maybe Germany, France, and Sweden should have realized how important it is for each province to treat chilren's health differently. They just don't understand how great our EXCEPTIONALISM is!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:28 | 4093434 RSloane
RSloane's picture

You don't know who runs SCHIP, who funds it, who sets the care guidelines, and its transferability from state to state. Its pretty obvious by now you don't know much of anything about health care for children in this country. Anyway, carry on with you emo-laden propaganda. Its pretty funny.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:31 | 4093444 SimMaker
SimMaker's picture

The USA was a special place.......a long time ago. Then pathetic little wimps like you who need to be fed, clothed and have your diapers changed by your superiors (and you have many) took over.

 

Its your fault, if you could take care of yourself instead of being an evolutionary and genetic failure, the USA would still be ok.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:12 | 4093396 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

If they release such a plan, please come back and tell us about it.

This crony capitalist/marxist cluster fuck doesn't do it.The 'poor' were already

covered by medicaid.The rich don't need it, so its just more wealth extraction of the

shrinking middle.Your ilk has run out of other peoples money.Now what are you going to

do ?

This is why Utopia always ends in mass graves.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:12 | 4093397 Wyatt Junker
Wyatt Junker's picture

You mean the same government that is depriving elderly people healthcare through a once vibrant medicare insurance that Obama just annihilated?

 

You mean that right, asshole?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:33 | 4093451 akak
akak's picture

Wyatt, you silly boy, don't you know that, like a vampire, the statist cannot see the reflection of his own hypocrisy no matter how many mirrors you provide him?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:33 | 4093445 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

when do the anti-government crazies plan to blow up the Hoover Dam?

Prone to hysteria, much?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:04 | 4093533 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

You dumb fuck, this isn't about helping the poor. Obama is not Jesus. This is about taking your money and giving it to the very, very rich and locking the poor into perpetual poverty and reliance on their slavemasters.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:46 | 4093626 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Yep, whenever "progressives" want more government control, more govt spending, or just need to explain an utter clusterfuck of a failure they play the "poor children" card. Well done, dickhead.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:04 | 4093663 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

RE: Kantbelieveit

 

 

Sounds like you and your Statist tribe have already drafted your attack on the United States of America. Let’s highlight a few targets you personally wrote. Is this not your cookbook of fear mongering to convince Global Governance control /conformance?

  • Blow up the Hoover Dam
  • Air Traffic control system going to be shut down
  • Meat and poultry inspection
  • And lastly, Communist bureaucratic outrages
Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:10 | 4093778 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

It does seem he has inadvertently projected their secret plan.

 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:25 | 4093704 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Stating that the failure was inevitable is not the same as cheering its collapse. No one is happy here because with Obamacare's failure, the next step is for the Progressives to continue making things worse in order to gin up support for Single-payer.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:07 | 4093771 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Do they email your scripts to cut and paste, or just deliver general guidelines and you make the rest up?

Somehow, I think it is cut-and-paste.

The reason you got a question mark from me is that you make absolutely no sense at all.

I also wondered if they cut you a check, or pay cash.

I could do this for cash. I do not need a script to create propaganda. If your employer pays cash, I could be buying moar PMs to lose off the back of my truck.

Please contact us all here at ZH with the website you signed up with. ZHers could have a gold mine here.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 18:04 | 4093933 walküre
walküre's picture

LOL

[..]the failure of a government program that will extend health insurance to the poor.[..]

You are one funny bastard.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:32 | 4093383 One And Only
One And Only's picture

I think it's hilarious that our first black President maxed out our credit several times, fucked up foreign relations and fucked up the healthcare system. Just about everyone is on some form of welfare now, and he polarized our nation to epic proportion.

To boot he blames all of his problems on other people.

I mean is this not the stereotypical image of a black person or what?

I bet he's shootin' hoops and eating watermelon right now. That little Curious George look-a-like mother fucker. Throw some yellow overalls on Obama and a hat with a little pinwheel on top, that should be his attire.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:02 | 4093526 Atomizer
Sat, 10/26/2013 - 17:50 | 4093936 walküre
walküre's picture

His background and ambitions were clear from day one.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:12 | 4093398 Kantbelieveit
Kantbelieveit's picture

It infuriates American racists that a half-black man could become President. But what drives them absolutely insane is the fact that Obama speaks, writes, thinks, and behaves better than they do. Hell hath no fury like white trash forced to look in a mirror.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:17 | 4093413 Jim B
Jim B's picture

If my name was Robbie Bird I would be an ex-Imperial Dragon of the KKK, but I am not.  We have the incompetent affirmative action child president.  Thank you white guilt!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:33 | 4093417 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Obama looks like a monkey.

Obama talks like a monkey when he doesn't have a teleprompter.

He has EMBARRASSED us in front of the world on multiple occasions. I mean they don't make garbage trucks big enough to haul away the shit he's caused.

He has encroached on every single constitutional liberty that exists.

He bullies private industry.

Kills women and children with drone strikes (yet somehow has a nobel peace prize)

Has borrowed more money than every president combined

Has turned us into a nation of dead beats on welfare.

(oh yeah and Trayvon would look like Obama's son) fuckin race baiter for a President...I can race bait but I expect more from my president. And Trayvon looked like a monkey too.

I don't even want to continue this list. I'm getting mad.

 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:51 | 4093639 monad
monad's picture

And he couldn't have done alll this and more without the entire congress, senate and supreme court.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:43 | 4093737 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Actually yea. He has done most of that unilaterally.

The other troop of baboons do aid him on occasion.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 17:40 | 4093913 monad
monad's picture

They aren't checking any of it so they are all complicit. When this crashes they can make all the excuses they want, they are fatally dropping the ball. Not an accident.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:20 | 4093419 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Yawn. Your boorish Al Sharpton impersonation is getting stale.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:31 | 4093441 akak
akak's picture

Kuntbelievesshit: the new AnAnonymous?

Make me laugh.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:32 | 4093449 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

I'm resisting my urge to feed him, but feeding him could be fun. 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:35 | 4093458 akak
akak's picture

Let's see if he brings up "US 'american' radical anarchist dam-blowing-up citizenism".

If so, game on!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:45 | 4093485 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

I think it's game on:)  No "citizenisms," but we do have "momentum of gravity" to work with.  

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:50 | 4093493 akak
akak's picture

I don't know about you, but I woke up this morning with an irresistable urge to go blow up a dam.  Must be my inner redneck anarchist yahoo just itching to get out.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:53 | 4093506 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

I'll bring the beer and the lawn chairs.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:07 | 4093539 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Woops, wrong poster.  Still, it was wonky what that other guy wrote.  Too much prose for the sake of prose tends to scramble my brain. 

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:48 | 4093630 monad
monad's picture

I suggest you ignore him. If enough fools take the bait sHe will use it to get Big Sis to censor ZH. This race baiter is a bad sign, because if we don't take the bait they will just stage it. SWHTF anyway. 

"When policemen break the law, there is no law." American meme

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:26 | 4093430 Wyatt Junker
Wyatt Junker's picture

Barry's black?  Really?  The fucking wannabe can't post up on the hardwood and shoots jumpers like Pee Wee Herman.  So then this country club faggot ass decides golf, the white man's game, is the shit and ends up looking like a white Urkel Tom.  You can only co-opt street cred for so long before you get found out.  Chicago was easy.  Go to a black liberation KKK church, change your name back to Kenyan for the people who wear Egytian Ra and Isis tribal robes and pretend you know the lyrics to Method Man when really you're just a Vanilla Nice knockoff also ran motherfucker.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:29 | 4093435 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Holy fuckin racist.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:17 | 4093685 akak
akak's picture

"Urkel Tom"

LOL!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 19:26 | 4094059 WOAR
WOAR's picture

Looks like someone's been taking the CRAZY PILLZ!

Everybody knows that Barry is white chocolate.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:32 | 4093587 monad
monad's picture

You must be lucky enough to have your people insulted or assaulted (verbally) by the other side. This helps to accomplish your training task. One can't count on the other side insulting your people, but the idea is that if you keep your people in action, if you are constantly assessing, constantly pushing, eventually the other side is going to help by insulting them. Saul Alinsky, on how to enslave children.

You Alinskyite provocateurs all showed up using this tactic 3 days after Soetoro grouched about blogs.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:58 | 4093763 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

So, I am not the only one to notice an upsurge in posters using progressive keywords??

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:57 | 4093760 starfcker
starfcker's picture

hey kantbelieve it. you keep telling them!! don't let them pick on obama!! he understood mathmatics, all the way up to the 7th grade!! and he went to columbia and harvard!!! (like to see those SAT's) if you don't believe me, google 'obama leno math is hard' and let barry himself explain it all too you.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:57 | 4093761 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

?

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 17:51 | 4093937 walküre
walküre's picture

Fuck you. If Obama had a brother, he would be the ex-mayor of Detroit!

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 22:52 | 4094342 monad
Sat, 10/26/2013 - 20:54 | 4094168 Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

It infuriates me that Educated Barack is looting American taxpayers for his trillion-dollar-a-year global-war agenda.

I think you get the picture.  But maybe you don't give a shit, because it's part of the "package".

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:14 | 4093405 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The old peckerwood Adelson says we should nuke Iran.

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Adelson-US-should-drop-atomi...

All these war mongering fuckers need to be purged from the system.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:23 | 4093426 RSloane
RSloane's picture

I saw that report this morning. Its not enough that we've crippled the economy of Iran, induced hyerinflation and have outright destroyed their currency, now we're supposed to bomb them. Its disgusting.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:31 | 4093443 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I've been around for a long time now Sloan and for as long as I can remember we have been screwing with Iran. These sycophants in power won't be happy until they have the Iranians under the thumb of the empire.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:38 | 4093467 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Sheldon is frustrated, therefore a whole bunch of people need to die.

I think that sums it up pretty well.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 14:07 | 4093537 RSloane
RSloane's picture

I am hoping that, with their allies and pressure from the UN, Iran can continue to fight off the results of our desire to crush them, a desire that is completely under control of another country.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:56 | 4093759 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Independence of British Rule was great, back in the 18th century.

We need a War of Independence against the ZOG.

Too many regular Jews and Christians are lured in by ZOG propaganda.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:38 | 4093456 optimator
optimator's picture

duplicate

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 13:38 | 4093465 optimator
optimator's picture

Good, drop a nuke in the Iranian desert to show the world the dangers of nukes.  Make absolutly certain the winds are blowing towards another country in the area that has 500 nukes ready to go they use to blackmail the rest of the world.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 15:52 | 4093748 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

"We" should nuke Iran?

Why don't the hebes do it themselves if they are so concerned? They have plenty of nukes.

Why should American boys die for the Red Shills, er, Shield?

I do not see an Iranian Invasion force off the coast.

Bath House won't do it, but if we had a real, legit president, he would tell Iran we want peace, but if you attack CONUS, we will wipe out your country. That is all you need to do. We can also stop the sanctions, they only make things worse. Open trade and visits by people of both countries would go a long way to stability. If the Iranians begin to prosper, their support of Hezbollah will wane. Isreel gets plenty of arms from Uncle Scam. Let them stand up  for themselves if it's so fucking important.

The MSM  in the US controlled by Red Shills, will not tell you the amount of influence Russia has over Iran. The Russian Rocket Forces can wipe out Iran in 10 minutes, and the Iranians know this. Americans need to get out more and quit watching the Shill Media.

Sat, 10/26/2013 - 16:39 | 4093826 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Lakecity,

The Israelis will not attack alone.Whether the supreme Imam has been told it,or not, for plausible

deniabilty,the Iranians have nuke warheads bought on the black during the Soviet collapse.

Even an ex MI guy on faux news blurted it out by mistake recently.he knew he had fucked up,

tried to backtrack, ending up saying they prolly couldn't detonate them.

Whats  not sure is  how many.Could be five mirv nukes ,or five sets(25) of mirv nukes.I have seen

two translations each showing a different answer.I can't access the original to check.

Anyway , more than enough to turn Israel into glass, without hitting Dimona.The Soviets like

high yeald H bombs, not low yeild fission ones.

Thats why the Israelis need Uncle Scam to attack,praying that the Iranians will not retaliate against

overwhelming force..

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