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Guest Post: 10 Signs That Obamacare Is Going To Wreck The U.S. Economy

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Michael Snyder of The Economic Collapse blog,

It is hard to find the words to adequately describe how much of a disaster Obamacare is turning out to be.  The debut of Healthcare.gov has been probably the worst launch of a major website in history, millions of Americans are having their current health insurance policies canceled, millions of others are seeing the size of their health insurance premiums absolutely explode, and this new law is going to result in massive numbers of jobs being lost.  It is almost as if Obamacare was specifically designed to wreck the U.S. economy.  Not that what we had before Obamacare was great.  In fact, I have long argued that the U.S. health care system is a complete and total train wreck.  But now Obamacare is making everything that was bad about our system much, much worse. 

Americans are going to pay far more for health care, the quality of that care is going to go down, they are going to have to deal with far more medical red tape, and thousands upon thousands of U.S. employers are considering getting rid of the health plans that they offer to employees altogether due to Obamacare.  If the U.S. health care system was a separate nation, it would be the 6th largest economy on the entire planet, and now Obamacare is going to absolutely cripple it.  To say that Obamacare is an "economic catastrophe" would be a massive understatement.

Of course we were assured that it wouldn't turn out this way.  We were promised over and over that we were going to pay less for health care, get better coverage, and be able to keep our current health plans if we were pleased with them.  The following is what Obama said at a rally in 2009...

"First of all, if you’ve got health insurance, you like your doctors, you like your plan, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you."

Oh really?

That was such a dramatic lie that even NBC News is turning on him.  They discovered that Obama has known for three years that most people that rely on individual health insurance policies would not be able to keep them...

Buried in Obamacare regulations from July 2010 is an estimate that because of normal turnover in the individual insurance market, “40 to 67 percent” of customers will not be able to keep their policy. And because many policies will have been changed since the key date, “the percentage of individual market policies losing grandfather status in a given year exceeds the 40 to 67 percent range.”

 

That means the administration knew that more than 40 to 67 percent of those in the individual market would not be able to keep their plans, even if they liked them.

Pretty much everything that Obama told us when he was selling us on his plan has turned out to be a lie.

So what can we expect from Obamacare moving forward?  The following are 10 signs that Obamacare is going to wreck the U.S. economy...

#1 It is being projected that millions upon millions of Americans are going to lose their current health insurance plans thanks to Obamacare.  Most will be faced with the choice of either purchasing much more expensive health insurance or going uninsured.  This will put even more stress on a middle class that is already disintegrating rapidly.  The following is from the recent NBC News investigation mentioned above...

Four sources deeply involved in the Affordable Care Act tell NBC News that 50 to 75 percent of the 14 million consumers who buy their insurance individually can expect to receive a “cancellation” letter or the equivalent over the next year because their existing policies don’t meet the standards mandated by the new health care law. One expert predicts that number could reach as high as 80 percent. And all say that many of those forced to buy pricier new policies will experience “sticker shock.”

#2 The health insurance premium increases that some families are experiencing are absolutely mind boggling.  According to Mike Adams of Natural News, one family in Texas just got hit with a 539% rate increase...

Obamacare is named the "Affordable Care Act," after all, and the President promised the rates would be "as low as a phone bill." But I just received a confirmed letter from a friend in Texas showing a 539% rate increase on an existing policy that's been in good standing for years.

 

As the letter reveals (see below), the cost for this couple's policy under Humana is increasing from $212.10 per month to $1,356.60 per month. This is for a couple in good health whose combined income is less than $70K -- a middle-class family, in other words.

According to NBC News, an elderly couple in North Carolina was hit with a similar rate increase...

George Schwab, 62, of North Carolina, said he was "perfectly happy" with his plan from Blue Cross Blue Shield, which also insured his wife for a $228 monthly premium. But this past September, he was surprised to receive a letter saying his policy was no longer available. The "comparable" plan the insurance company offered him carried a $1,208 monthly premium and a $5,500 deductible.

Many Americans that were formerly in favor of Obamacare are now against it after they have seen what it is going to do to their budgets.  The following is one example of this from a recent Los Angeles Times article...

Pam Kehaly, president of Anthem Blue Cross in California, said she received a recent letter from a young woman complaining about a 50% rate hike related to the healthcare law.

 

"She said, 'I was all for Obamacare until I found out I was paying for it,'" Kehaly said.

#3 Obamacare actually includes incentives for people to work less and make less money.  The following is one example from a recent article by Sean Davis...

In California, a couple earning $64,000 a year would not qualify for health care subsidies. A bronze plan for them through Kaiser would cost them about $1,300 each month, or $15,600 a year. But if that same family earned just $2,000 less, it would qualify for over $14,000 in annual health care subsidies, dropping their premiums for that same Kaiser plan to less than $100 per month.

#4 Thankfully the employer mandate in Obamacare was delayed for a little while, but it will ultimately result in widespread job losses all over the country.  In fact, we are already starting to see this happen.  The following is from a recent article in the Economist...

BEFORE the recession, Richard Clark’s cleaning company in Florida had 200 employees, about half of them working full time. These days it has about 150, with 80% part-time. The downturn explains some of this. But Mr Clark also blames Barack Obama’s health reform. When it comes into effect in January 2015, Obamacare will require firms with 50 or more full-time employees to offer them affordable health insurance or pay a fine of $2,000-3,000 per worker. That is a daunting prospect for firms that do not already offer coverage. But for many, there is a way round the law.

 

Mr Clark says he is “very careful with the threshold”. To keep his full-time workforce below the magic number of 50, he is relying more on part-timers. He is not alone. More than one in ten firms surveyed by Mercer, a consultancy—and one in five retail and hospitality companies—say they will cut workers’ hours because of Obamacare. A hundred part-timers can flip as many burgers as 50 full-timers, and the former will soon be much cheaper.

You can find a very long list of some of the employers that have either eliminated jobs or cut hours because of Obamacare right here.

#5 Even if you are able to keep your job, there is no guarantee that your employer will continue to offer health insurance as an employee benefit.  In fact, it is being reported that large numbers of employers have already decided to no longer offer health insurance to their employees because of Obamacare.

#6 According to CBS News, so far the number of people that have had their health insurance policies canceled is more than three times greater than the number of people that have signed up for new policies under Obamacare...

CBS News has learned more than two million Americans have been told they cannot renew their current insurance policies -- more than triple the number of people said to be buying insurance under the new Affordable Care Act, commonly known as Obamacare.

#7 If what is going on in New York is any indication, those that are signing up for health insurance under Obamacare are going to have a really, really hard time finding a doctor...

New York doctors are treating ObamaCare like the plague, a new survey reveals.

 

A poll conducted by the New York State Medical Society finds that 44 percent of MDs said they are not participating in the nation’s new health-care plan.

Another 33 percent say they’re still not sure whether to become ObamaCare providers.

 

Only 23 percent of the 409 physicians queried said they’re taking patients who signed up through health exchanges.

#8 Obamacare is turning out to be a gold mine for hackers and identity thieves.  The personal information of millions of Americans could potentially end up being compromised.  According to CNN, Healthcare.gov was found to be teeming with security holes...

The Obamacare website has more than annoying bugs. A cybersecurity expert found a way to hack into users' accounts.

 

Until the Department of Health fixed the security hole last week, anyone could easily reset your Healthcare.gov password without your knowledge and potentially hijack your account.

And according to the New York Post, Healthcare.gov has been designed so badly from a security standpoint that it might have to be "rebuilt from scratch"...

The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee said ObamaCare’s website, already a tangled mess, might need to be rebuilt from scratch to to protect against cyber-thieves because he fears it’s not a safe place right now for health-care consumers to deposit their personal information.

 

“I know that they’ve called in another private entity to try to help with the security of it. The problem is, they may have to redesign the entire system,” Rep. Mike Rogers said on Sunday on CNN’s “State of the Union” political talk show. “The way the system is designed, it is not secure.”

#9 As I noted in a previous article, approximately 60 percent of all personal bankruptcies in the United States are related to medical bills.  Because millions of Americans are now losing their health insurance policies and millions of others will choose to pay the fine rather than sign up for Obamacare, more Americans than ever will find themselves overwhelmed with medical bills when they get seriously sick.  This will result in even more personal bankruptcies.

#10 In the end, the burden for paying for the subsidies that Obamacare offers is going to overwhelmingly fall on the taxpayers.  This is going to cause our nightmarish national debt to get even worse.  Peter Schiff recently explained why this is going to happen...

It is also ironic that high-deductible, catastrophic plans are precisely what young people should be buying in the first place. They are inexpensive because they provide coverage for unlikely, but expensive, events. Routine care is best paid for out-of-pocket by value conscious consumers. But Obamacare outlaws these plans, in favor of what amounts to prepaid medical treatment that shifts the cost of services to taxpayers. In such a system, patients have no incentive to contain costs. Since the biggest factor driving health care costs higher in the first place has been the over use of insurance that results from government-provided tax incentives, and the lack of cost accountability that results from a third-party payer system, Obamacare will bend the cost curve even higher. The fact that Obamacare does nothing to rein in costs while providing an open-ended insurance subsidy may be good news for hospitals and insurance companies, but it's bad news for taxpayers, on whom this increased burden will ultimately fall.

So what do you think of Obamacare?

Has it directly affected your life yet?

 

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Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:41 | 4107076 Zero Point
Zero Point's picture

Destroy the Kulacs!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:50 | 4107088 funwithstocks
funwithstocks's picture

Kulacs?

We have a marxist for president whose entire intent has always been to destroy our economy. But you know we live in a nation of idiots. Gib us dem 'Bamaphones! Vote for Obama, he gib you a phone! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:49 | 4107099 Zero Point
Zero Point's picture

Anyone who can afford their own phone is obviously a class traitor, who should be sent to the Gulag!

Forward!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:03 | 4107147 MinnesotaMD
MinnesotaMD's picture

America is going to get free phones and free healthcare right in the nose. American voters deserve it.

They are spending money like they never intend to pay it back...so they must think they can get away with that. The pain from this folly will know no bounds.

Some doctors think their businesses will boom, and those doctors are fucking fools. They can stay in this country when our inflation hits 47% and we can't produce toilet paper like the chavistas in Venezuela.

Obamacare is the only barbarous relic I know of. Tried and failed every time, in every country.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:07 | 4107157 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

Obamacare has nothin on this Puppy!

US Gold Treason

http://twoshortplanksunplugged.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/us-gold-treason.html

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:18 | 4107204 john39
john39's picture

obamao's great leap forward has begun...

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:23 | 4107222 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Two thousand pages of "law" for one item is not enough! How about tens of thousands of pages of...regulations!!!

Here ya go ZHer's, knock yourselves out, they've been very busy ;-)

https://webapps.dol.gov/federalregister/PdfDisplay.aspx?DocId=23967

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:39 | 4107265 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

That's akin to reading the Engineering Specs on the Titanic whilst listening to the music?!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:00 | 4107325 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Some of us have to be masochists, for the good of all...lol.

Check out page 34,560...no, really...page 34,560 talks about stripping away "grandfathered in law" as written...wonderfully sadistic bureaucratese type stuff, on how you can keep your insurance plan...but not really ;-)

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:14 | 4107887 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

Page 34,560...WTF?!...why aren't you out fishing in retirement, Grandpa?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:16 | 4107364 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

$1,356.60 per month

thats a mortgage on a 300,000 house

cant imagine a couple making 70 grand a year getting approved for a mortgage of that size

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:32 | 4107647 WTF_247
WTF_247's picture

Try $1350+1100, they have to live somewhere.  Now we are at 2400 or so.  They have to eat.  Even bargain basement is $300 per month, that is 10 bucks a day total for both people.  They work so they need transportation of some kind.  Lets say they do not even own cars but ride train/bus/taxi.  Even bus is $35 per person per month unlimited, lets call that $80 per month.  They pay utilities, electric, gas.  May or may not pay water.  Those are likely at least $150 per month combined.  If they have to pay water/trash that is likely another 50.  Heating is variable depending on where you live.  Lets average that out to $50 per month.  They need phone service of some kind, home or cell.  And internet access.  That likely runs $150 per month total, assuming they do not have fancy iphones or surf the net like crazy.  They also likely need some kind of TV services. We will assume they are frugal and pay $40 per month.  Ok, lets see where we are at now:

 

1350 + 1100 + 300 + 80 + 150 + 50 + 150 + 40 = $3220 per month.  That is very, very basic.  No eating out EVER.  No birthday presents.  No trips.  No savings. No IRA contributions, no KIDS. No out of pocket expenses.  No emergencies.  Likely this underestimates a bunch of stuff and leaves out a ton. It also assumes they never, ever will own any form of transportation, nor will ever own a home EVER.  Otherwise the likey bill is 4200 per month, bare bones.

 

@ about 70k per year they likely keep 50-55k of it.  That is around 4500 per month or so, maybe a bit more.  That gives the above family 300 bucks of leeway above bottom of the barrel if they either own a home or a car or both. Good luck.  What used to be comfortable is now a struggle.  If the water heater breaks - where is the money?  If the car breaks down, where is the money?  How about if a relative gets really sick - no chance you are going to visit them - there is no money to do so.

Granted you could cut out all phone services and television to free up some.  AT some point why are you working if you never get anything and cannot get ahead at all?  Why struggle to that degree to pay the insurance so you do not get fined?

Easy answer - no one will.  They are not stupid.  Its likely easier to work at McD for min wage and be on welfare and food stamps + section 8 housing and then get almost free insurance.  Life is easier because there is no struggle.  Get yerself an Obama phone and you are set.

 

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:29 | 4107724 James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

The answer is easy.

Quit your job, divorce your spose.

If we all collectively received subsidies, it would crater this "Affordable" plan..

Take one for Liberty.

Quit your job.

1 800 FUCK YOU!

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:08 | 4107704 Freddie
Freddie's picture

This will put even more stress on a middle class that is already disintegrating rapidly.

Bingo.  This has ALWAYS been Obama and the Demo-Turds plan all along helped by RINOs like McCain.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:53 | 4107113 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

on the bright side, 

as more people are unemployed whilst obligated to pay higher insurance costs, there will be fewer people who can afford homes

which, as per usual, will send house prices upward


Thu, 10/31/2013 - 11:54 | 4108730 tudemonstro
tudemonstro's picture

Unless you're being sarcastic, a reduction in home buyers (demand) leads to lower house prices due to excess supply.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:54 | 4107115 funwithstocks
funwithstocks's picture

Kulacs, looked it up. Yes, exactly.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:43 | 4107278 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

It wasn't genocide - They insist they didn't kill those farmers because they were Kulacs; they killed those Kulacs because they were farmers.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:22 | 4107373 nmewn
nmewn's picture

+1

Yes, the descent into madness, until there is no bread. Then they ask for a mulligan, again.

Not this time.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:28 | 4107518 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

One young boy, in a burst of patriotic zeal, turned his parents in for hoarding food. They made a hero and poster boy of him. When he was killed by the other villagers they declared him a Martyr of the Revolution. Stalin went right for the jugular. What better way to control a population than to have absolute control of the food supply and decide who lives and who starves? As an object lesson we ought to take a close look at who is educating our children and what they are being taught.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:23 | 4107376 skeeterpi
skeeterpi's picture

Did you see the lines in LA for free health checkups?

We my be doomed unless good people stand up.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:44 | 4107415 Keyser
Keyser's picture

We are already doomed. The only reason we don't have bread lines with 1/2 the populace standing in them is the advent of food stamps. 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:48 | 4107092 Jerome Lester H...
Jerome Lester Horwitz's picture

Lets not forget all of the discretionary income that will go to Obamacare. I have a friend who owns a flooring company. This is going to really hurt his business. People that would scrape together money to put a hardwood floor in a room will no longer have that money. It will go to increased healthcare premiums. Taking that money out of the economy will be the final nail in the coffin.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:03 | 4107146 duo
duo's picture

As I said before, the Obamacare Recession of 2014 will be legendary, as the equivalent of two car payments are subtracted from the middle class, or what's left of it.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:46 | 4107422 Spigot
Spigot's picture

Euphemistic 'recessions' aside, no, it will usher in a full blow, and very deep, depression in the consumer economy, just as $10 per gallon gasoline would. There already is no money to spare for many of the youngest workers. I estimate the lower 50% of income earners will be destroyed outright by this political asteroid.

First, the mandatory monthly costs from budgets which do not have ANY spare change. Second, the deductables essentially make all routine care a 100% out of pocket cost until they backfill the $1,000's in deductables (every year, mind you).

I estimate $8 to $16 billion more syphoned out of household pocket books every month.

2 months and counting. I sure do hope the Democrats don't mind being shot at, since there will probably be A LOT of volunteers coming forward to take a crack at em. Can they dodge and weave as well from bullets as they do in their talk...

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:52 | 4107681 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Don't forget the lost jobs as employers keep under 50 full time. Many will lose their jobs or be reduced to 20 hours a week. Then be expected to pay most of their pay check for insurance. Which does not cover routine medical expenses, and which the insurance companies will weasel out of in the usual way when there is a medical disaster in the family.

That, plus the money sucked out of the pockets of the few who have full time jobs. The economy, already on the ropes, will collapse in a year.

Unless they pull off another slick trick, another quick fix, another gimmick. I don't know how the hell they do it but they have already kept this shit show going 10 years longer than anyone dreamed possible.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:14 | 4107852 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

My recollection is that the 50 number is a gross oversimplification. There are record keeping requirements that will force employers into the TBTF payroll provider oligarchy (e.g ADP) where some really FUGLY calculations are performed to let government know whether your company has more than 50 FTEs - NOT 50 employees. So the output of your company is actually limited to to what 50 people can produce (i.e. a company must either be TBTF or too small to matter). But what do I know- since I only read the damn law, (although it is possible that in the 30,000 pages of subsequent regulations they made Dr. Mengele's healthcare laboratory less lethal to small business, but I somehow doubt it).

edit: to clarify, none of that takes away from the validity of the economic incentives under the ACA for making ALL employees part-time and not providing them healthcare (or all employees who are not c-suite officers of the company).

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:24 | 4107719 Freddie
Freddie's picture

You can see it now and over the past 5 years plus it will only get worse.   Look at industries or things we can do without or delay.  Stores that sell beds, furniture and others.  I think tires stores and auto repair places are probably being affected as well. I have see used tire stores in those shopper mailer things.  

People will put off replacing beds and furniture.   Hope and Change.  

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:06 | 4107154 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Well, it's zero sum. Your friend may need to feed his family with dog food, but the chief of united healthcare will be able to buy a third line of blow for all his secretaries..er admin assistants.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:50 | 4107100 G.O.O.D
G.O.O.D's picture

how in the fvk does a guy circumvent this piece of shit?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:11 | 4107179 lead salad
lead salad's picture

Do what Tyler did at the end of Fight Club, just make damn sure the bullet enters your cranium and you end up 6 feet under, or you'll be under Oblame-a's "care".....that's one way....

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:46 | 4107423 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Pay the fine for 2014. You won't have to worry about it after that because the ACA will fail completely. 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:18 | 4107490 vlad335
vlad335's picture

Obama and the left in no way will let this fail. NEVER! I don't know how they will force people to buy a ruinous policy but it will be done. It is after all, the "Law of the land." Want to renew your drivers license? We need proof of health insurance. Want to file a tax return and not get arrested by the IRS? Show us the policy.

Obamacare is no different then all leftist schemes. It will require all encompassing force.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:47 | 4107678 WTF_247
WTF_247's picture

You cannot compel that for which there is no money to pay for.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

They could easily make the tax rate 90% on everyone be edict.  However, that goes against the above and other clauses and was one of the reasons America was born in the first place.

I can assure everyone if the cost of health insurance goes above the cost of housing per month then its done.  If you cannot qualify to buy 2 houses then there is no way you can afford to pay it.  People will put up with a lot but if you threaten to take any semblence of happiness away because you basically double, triple or more the mandated monthly payment to LIVE then its done. 

Would people be homeless just to avoid a fine?

Would people choose not to feed their kids just to avoid a fine or jail?

Would people go to College, take on debt to better their salary only to be far, far worse off than the stoners who ditched school, did not graduate, committed various crimes and never accomplished anything except being stupid and now get free healthcare, free housing, free food, free phones and free transportation?

Would you work your ass off to make $60k per year only to be forced to live in $600 a month shit housing in high crime rate area with your family in the slums and eat dog food all because your insurance is $1400+ per month that is mandated that you pay?  The current administration would likely deem that an excellent choice because living there you probably have a 1000% increase in chances to get injured through violence, break-ins shootings, fighing, rape etc.  See - the insurance IS good.  You just were too stupid to realize it.

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:33 | 4107729 Freddie
Freddie's picture

I am not sure about everyone else here but most of us are getting it already when we buy buy with our own money. The O voters and illegals with EBT fill their baskets with GMO/corn syrup/ Captain Crunch and other BS with no worries.  The rest of us have seen serious food price inflation because they print so much so these slackers can get free food.  All mega food corps,ADM corn syrup INC., fast food places, JPM, Wal Mart love EBT/WIC cards.

We are stuck paying higher prices for food because of devalued fiat and high demand for food because HALF of American is gettin it for free.

ObamaCare will be socialized medicine.  They don't care if they destroy everything - that is the plan.  They are pushing amnesty now to insure that 50 million illegals will keep you slaves in line.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:13 | 4107758 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

The fine mechanism functions by taking the penalty from your tax refund.  Solution is, always owe on your income tax, so no penalty can be assesssed.  You should make sure this is already the case anyway.  Why loan the government money?  Max out your W2 deductions and minimize your tax.  With a little creative accounting you can probably get your tax owed quite close to zero.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 10:42 | 4107859 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Such faith... how cute.

They have methods, and the process you describe above (i.e. not loaning the government money) you would leave you 1) subject to whatever usurious rates the IRS chooses to implement (and I know of NO statute that actually prevents the IRS from using multiple rate tables - i.e. one for the haves and one for the insurance have-nots, and 2) that would instantly open the door to bypassing the mythical fig leaf of protection afforded from their lien and civil forfeiture toolkit.

If you want to fight the State (on the State's terms) you have to cover your flanks and have all you ducks in a row. Deductions can be disallowed and under-paying creates an enforceable obligation, that's not covering your flank, its dropping trou and bending over.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:32 | 4107530 StrangerInAStra...
StrangerInAStrangeLand's picture

Don't sign up.  If you work and pay taxes, up your contributions so you don't have a refund.  Supremes said the government/IRS can't enforce the penalty by going after you.  They sort of sold out.  Not entirely, entirely.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:52 | 4107108 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

Right. Obamacare wrecked the economy. OK. Let's go with that. Is this Fox News Online? This new law may be shitty but you may have noticed the country was heading for a cliff long before Obamacare started. Without the fake Fed trillions this country would be in a deep depression. Don't give me this shit about Obamacare ruining the country.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:57 | 4107128 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

You're on the wrong site, I believe you're looking for the Huffpo. The bottom line is it's a piece of shit legislation, and it's another squeeze on the middle class. Sure it's not the only factor destroying the economy, but it's making a major contribution.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:08 | 4107152 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

He's got a point.  The Red Team side of MSM is making the case that Obamacare is the root of all evil, when it is merely a branch on the tree.  Maybe a big branch, maybe just a nail in a coffin with many nails, but either way the economy was fucked long before Obamacare was a twinkle.   It is unfortunate that many millions of people will look at this one manifestation of evil as the "cause" of what is about to happen, while the Fed and its owners gleefully soak up what is left of our productive economy. 

The title of this article assumes falsely that the economy will be wrecked because of Obamacare.  It is a legitimate gripe to call bullshit because it was wrecked already.  Doesn't mean he's defending Obamacare.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:10 | 4107173 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I don't disagree Rand, however this guy continues to be an Obama apologist and I find that to be disgusting.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:28 | 4107236 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I haven't been following the poster.   Anyone who apologizes for Obama is part of the problem.  Obama is in fact the worst President ever, until the next one anyway.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:30 | 4107242 jon dough
jon dough's picture

Not to mention his belief that the fed's trillions are holding back depression.

Holding...uh-huh, like a fork holding back the tide.

Inevitable, epic fail.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:15 | 4107194 banzai401
banzai401's picture

Carefully calculated this entire event. The purpose of the circus is to generate fear and loathing so people OPT-OUT, first year 0.5% of 'income', then 2.5%, then 10%, fuck I could see it going to 50%, why the fuck not?

Your looking at the last days of the USA, and the insurance companys and lawyers ( obama ) OWN your fucking ass, and your bank-account.

 

The reason for having the IRS in charge of collections is they already have the power to haircut your saving's account for the collection of the penalty.

There has NEVER been a better incentive to have ZERO-INCOME.

What this does is completly fucking divide ameriKKKa into GUBMINT employees, and private-sector serfs,... the FINES will accelerate the rate that the private sector becomes poor.

 

Make no mistake the ageda of the GUBMINT pensioner is to squeeze every last bit of blood from the private sector.

There is no obama-care ( romney-care ) its all a ruse, to justify new taxes ( fines, ... penalty's, ..negative savings ... ).

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:27 | 4107388 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

you make a fine point

There has NEVER been a better incentive to have ZERO-INCOME

and people say the next generation wont be able to retire til they are 73

false

they will HAVE to retire at 23

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:33 | 4107914 Incubus
Incubus's picture

yup. going to take the missus to the junkyard to watch the rat fights.

 

Fun being retired in my 20s.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:16 | 4107201 jon dough
jon dough's picture

I get confused when it comes to verb constructions

I know this post is attempting to read the tea leaves but neither "future simple" nor "future perfect" really sound right...

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:57 | 4107686 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

How about "past perfect" and "future tense".

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:34 | 4107254 justanothersucker
justanothersucker's picture

Look, the economy HAS been wrecked for 5 years.  Obummer Care was passed in Dec. 09 and it has been wreaking havoc on the economy ever since.  It's implementation in the form of new regulations was IMMEDIATE. 

Sure the markets went up  They HAD to, thanks to Bernac.  This was the smokescreen to placate the masses while the rug was systematically pulled from beneath them.  The unAffordable care act will be the largest wealth transfer from individuals to the government IN HISTORY. 

There were 30mm=/- people without healthcare, before ACA.  Now, approx 17MM+/- who had previously PAID for their insurance will be dropped and either get subsidies or pay HUGE premium increases.  Say bye bye to the middle class and say bye bye to the economy.  There isn't a fucking thing we can do about it......except leave.

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:24 | 4107901 FormerTurbineGuy
FormerTurbineGuy's picture

"There were 30mm=/- people without healthcare, before ACA.  Now, approx 17MM+/- who had previously PAID for their insurance will be dropped and either get subsidies or pay HUGE premium increases."

JAS...

No one will discuss what that is, that is a "Moral Hazard". In the Financial arena, a Broker or Financial Planner is taught not to thrust upon a client and unappropiate investment and no subject them to a risk they would not take themselves, unless they are fully aware or are a seasoned investor. Pork Bellies might be o.k. for the young guy that has made the market his living, not the 80 year old retiree.

Obamacare destroys your "Contract" ( and contract law including the linkage to the GM Bankruptcy and the Sebilius Mandate) and forces you into a market where you have no idea  or standard of value of what you are going to get hit with, especially if you go to the "Exchange" and at the end of the process find out you now have to pay 2 to 5 times what you paid before. You did not ask for this now you as an individual are in a Moral Hazard situation.  You didn't ask for this, nor did many Insurers, Agents, the Billing Person @ your Doctor's Office who now has to hear you complain, and your Doctor who is so P.O'd because you proported a Moral Hazard on him to make a decision not to care for people, potentially violating the Hypocratic Oath which he believed in and now want to throw in the Towel and retire early rather than deal with all this7 BS.

This whole 5 years has been like giving a 15 year old a restored muscle car, a tool kit and a big honkin Holley Carb to retrofit on it and a naked Parking lot to Hoon in. Our esteemed Muscle Car Pilot, one BHO is rapping this magnificent car around a flippin light-pole and it is almost totalled...

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:18 | 4107366 skeeterpi
skeeterpi's picture

So instead of standing on the edge of a cliff, we get pushed. F all Progressives.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:37 | 4107734 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Anyone who watches TV is a retard and supports all of it. Fox and the rest are all the same.  They support the whole game and the sheep who watch it support.  So if you watch TV or Hollywood's shit then you are an idiot.  Personally with you, I always knew that.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:48 | 4108171 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

Where do I praise Obama? He has been a huge disappointment, but no I do not have an irrational or racist hatred of the man. Sorry! I AGREE that it is fucked up, horrible and shitty for the middle class. However, our economy has had terminal cancer since the banker coup of the mid-nineties during Clinton's administration and this legislation is like a badly sprained ankle. The economy is doomed either way. And I am not applauding Bernanke for miracling trillions, but the reality is the world economy would've imploded on its own. When the fake money disappears, so will the economy. 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 13:08 | 4108968 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

The term was apologist not lauding praises. I think you are sadly focusing on " irrational or racial hatred" when there is none. If racism were so prevalent today the man could not have been elected. Your arguement is pure sophistry. Just because our economy was fucked up long ago does not give the president today a free pass. If Ron Paul were now president things would be very difficult as he attempted to right a sinking ship. I am not sure if he could do it even if Congress were behind him. Imposing Obamacare on a sputtering economy with a dying middle class makes no sense unless you have a master plan to reinvent USA. This is a diabolical grab for power by someone who perceives advantage due to weakness. This is no mistake made by an ignorant rookie leader. The numbers are clear and well published and I do believe in math. This policy will result in a horrendous bloodletting on millions and those of us in the medical field have a front row seat to watch.

Miffed;-)

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:01 | 4107142 funwithstocks
funwithstocks's picture

You are getting very sleepy. Obama is wonderful. Obama is a god! It doesnt' matter that he created this mess, it doesnt' matter that he lied about everything.

No war, no spying, no drones, no raising of the debt ceiling became:

yes war, yes drones, yes spying, double the debt but you are sleeping and anythign that obama says is true.  Wake up now, go out and spread the word.

Obama is the messiah! He will save us all! Drink the koolaid! When they come for the nuts who opposed him and shoot your neighbors in front of your face, you will rejoice! The world will be free to have Obama as dictator forever!

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:21 | 4107207 akak
akak's picture

Praise Obama from whom all blessings flow!

Praise him all taxpayers hear below.

Praise him above ye heavenly drones.

Praise 'Bama, son of Kenyan ghost.

A-men.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:10 | 4107175 Jim B
Jim B's picture

Bring on the loser trolls (if the shoe fits…..)  Ultimately, if the child president destroys the health care system, the free health care zombies will suffer the most (Medicaid) because no doctor will accept it!  The whole point of this exercise is to destroy the health care system and bring in the single payer.  If it gets bad enough, I can go to another country for treatment.  Keeping chasing the free stuff unicorn Obamzo parasites!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:26 | 4107182 booboo
booboo's picture

Ok, it s big straw and Obama will be drinking shake too, DRAINAGE MY BOY, DRAAAAAAINAGE. SHWWWWWLLLLUUUUUUURRRP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKQ3LXHKB34

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:18 | 4107199 lead salad
lead salad's picture

Your master called, said the threesome with you, Benny and Barry is about to get started and they need the pivot man....

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:11 | 4107351 pods
pods's picture

B7GR, I did upvote you because in reality, we have been in a depression since '08, and this is merely the latest clusterfuck that has peoples' attention.

Now this is a clusterfuck of epic proportions, but merely the latest. Medicare part D expansion was another huge one.

This is all setting up for steam to be let off in the 14 and 16 selections where the red team takes control of the wheel.

We can all rejoice when we "throw the bums out" and let the next gaggle of thieves have their turn.

If one team stays in control too long, you get too much pent up anger and they really risk losing support.  This way they can go back and forth while nothing changes.

I see a currency collapse taking the whole shebang down, as there are too many countries that are willing to break the reserve currency status.  

Envy is a powerful emotion, and there are psychopaths and sociopaths around the world that get aroused merely thinking about if their currency carried that weight.

pods

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:29 | 4107639 long-shorty
long-shorty's picture

Obamacare will damage the economy, but it is not, as I have heard a hundred times, "ruining American healh care." The federal government, insurance companies, and large health care delivery organizations long ago conspired to create crazy-priced, inconsistent, uneconomic, oddly subsidized healthcare free of anti-trust litigation and full of challenges for any doctor or patient who would even think about trying to go down a different path. HEALTH CARE ECONOMICS IN AMERICA WERE RUINED LONG AGO.

Free marketeers should be hopeful about Obamacare, as ultimately it will ram millions of more patients into an overburdened, uneconomic, failing system, and will therefore hasten the development of a second, higher tier of health care delivery in which rich Americans can get something like market-based healthcare, and if we are lucky, this system may spread to the middle class someday and ultimately become popular.

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:03 | 4107696 vlad335
vlad335's picture

Obamacare will damage the economy, but it is not, as I have heard a hundred times, "ruining American healh care." The federal government, insurance companies, and large health care delivery organizations long ago conspired to create crazy-priced, inconsistent, uneconomic, oddly subsidized healthcare free of anti-trust litigation and full of challenges for any doctor or patient who would even think about trying to go down a different path. HEALTH CARE ECONOMICS IN AMERICA WERE RUINED LONG AGO.

I aggree 100%. This is what needs to be fixed. Instead the government, through Obamacare is doubling down and ligitamizing a system that they allowed to happen and in many ways created.

Free marketeers should be hopeful about Obamacare, as ultimately it will ram millions of more patients into an overburdened, uneconomic, failing system, and will therefore hasten the development of a second, higher tier of health care delivery in which rich Americans can get something like market-based healthcare, and if we are lucky, this system may spread to the middle class someday and ultimately become popular.

Seriously, do you really think the government will allow this?

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:39 | 4107665 401K of Dooom
401K of Dooom's picture

So could you explain what he did to save the economy?  Give the Bernanke moar paper for the printing presses in Weimar?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:53 | 4107112 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Quite frankly I wish they would stop pressing for a delay on the mandate. The sooner more Americans start feeling the pain of Zerocare the sooner the piece of shit will collapse in on itself.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:57 | 4107129 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

+1000!

The fastest way around the fire is through it, sir.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:09 | 4107160 banzai401
banzai401's picture

I really don't understand why people just talk shit over&over,

 

There is no obama-care, its romney-care relabelled, the difference is under Obama, it is now an opt-out tax, to be .5% of 'income', then 2.5%, and then 10% within a few years,

 

The majority will PAY TO OPT-OUT, ... in effect the free shit army has major coup, those are paying the GUBMINT to get nothing and that money will be used by the FSA to buy something.

Fucking brilliant.

The FSA is 60% of the USA and growing, +60% of the USA public now gets a US Treasury deposit every month.

 

The 40% that have a 'income' will pay to OPT-OUT of the system, the 60% are exempt from that system.

 

The IRS is a collection agency for insurance premiums, and Obama is now Insurance Sales Agent in Chief.

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:38 | 4107264 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

out of curiosity, PAY with what?  Opt out TO what?  Do you think there is anything left?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:09 | 4107347 banzai401
banzai401's picture

Lets say your mandatory insurance is $10k/year, but because of the $1M deductible, and the fact is your IQ is above 100 you see that it makes more sense to pay $1000 ( $40k/year income at 2.5%) penalty and opt-out ( legally ), than to pay out $10k to get nothing back, then you can use the $9,000, or better yet have your own 'medical savings account'

Only god-damn fucking morons will play along,

The gubmint is counting on the fact that the majority with money will PAY to be OUT, and then that money can be used to care for the FSA ( statist plan ).

The FSA that voted for OREO-OBAMA of course get what they wanted, and the working-idiot, gets fleeced its win-win for all.

 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:54 | 4107437 Georgiabelle
Georgiabelle's picture

You're only accounting for the individual mandate. The bigger problem is how the incentives/disincentives in the employer mandate will destroy, actually already is destroying, full-time employment. That is what will ultimately destroy the middle class and any hope that young people have for a future that doesn't involve Mom and Dad's basement. 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:25 | 4107381 Borrow Owl
Borrow Owl's picture

"There is no obama-care, its romney-care relabelled"

Ya'all must be a young'un.

This shit used to be called 'Hillarycare'.

Same scam, different decade.

 

 


Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:24 | 4107227 lead salad
lead salad's picture

Exactly. If the repubes really weren't the second wing of the same damn bird (vulture comes to mind), they wouldn't want a delay and would want people to see what an absolute cluster fuck this POS truly is.....

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:26 | 4107230 Croesus
Croesus's picture

@ Dr. Engali: 

Spot-on! I have noticed that whenever a law is passed, if you take the "key" word in the title, and substitute its opposite, you get a good indication of what the law is actually about. It also works with some organizational names, or movements, as a good way of describing what these groups are really about, or what they actually accomplish. 

Thus, the "Affordable Care Act" becomes the "Unaffordable Care Act".

"Women's Liberation" is actually "Women's Oppression"...the NAACP is actually the "National Association for the Abasement of Colored People"...and so on....

"Patriot Act"? 

"No Child Left Behind"? 

"Homeland Security Act"? 

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:22 | 4107628 toady
toady's picture

Un-Patriot Act
Children Left Behind
Homeland Insecurity Act

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:42 | 4107276 nmewn
nmewn's picture

@Doc...it says quite a lot when the "establishment" blue & red teams will not fight against an obvious Obamanation of individual liberty.

Let it burn.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 20:58 | 4107130 rlouis
rlouis's picture

 

Karl Denniger is interviewed by Greg Hunter - destroys Obamacare - great interview.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE1cN9shMyI

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:01 | 4107143 graspAU
graspAU's picture

My general practitioner and I talked about this a couple years back. He said maybe he would just take cash or barter with people and joked about trading eggs and chickens.

I told him my thought was that would not fly. If they let that happen no one would use the system. He looked at me kind of strange, and I said, it's easy, they make your continued license to practice contingent upon accepting the forced placed insurance program. No take insurance, no license. Fine if you want to barter, you will just be outside the law. I think that is where we are headed, black market for healthcare.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:20 | 4107209 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

"black market for healthcare"

Like medical marijuana, graspAU?

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:31 | 4107773 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Very unlikely to happen. There are already two tiered systems in all the EU countries with single payer systems.  The well-to-do pay cash for private service and there isn't a damn thing the government can do about it.  And the best physicians and specialists work in these private systems.  Same occurs with consierge medicine in this country.  You pay directly to your chosen doc for a set amount of his time each month-like a retainer for a lawyer or accountant.  He in turn knows the best cash only specialists in each field.  Only the dregs of the profession accept medicaid or medicare patients-most of whom are too dim to know it.

Just try to get a top private doc at a clinic like the Stedman orthopedic/sport medicine clinic to take you if you have insurance.  They won't see you under any conditions.  And they don't have to-they are the best and have a long list of cash paying customers including most major sports stars.  This is the way it will work.

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:43 | 4108167 graspAU
graspAU's picture

John and Radical, Thanks for the replies. Radical, yes like whatever pain med you choose. I have bad osteo-arthritis in one joint (no pun intended). I've found a Devil's root extract capsule twice a day along with hyaluronic acid capsule (joint lube), or Mega Red Joint Care, does much better than downing any number of NSAID's forever.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:09 | 4107166 Kantbelieveit
Kantbelieveit's picture

Anything is possible with enough hatred of Obama. The nasty old health insurance company practices, such as denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions and capriciously denying claims to make their numbers are now forgotten in the desperate attempt to demonize Obama.We should have gone to single-payer, but this kludgy Romneycare compromise was all that Obama could get through Congress. It is still better than what we had before.

Let me say this again, with emphasis:

PRIVATE HEALTH INSURERS MAY NO LONGER DENY SICK PEOPLE COVERAGE. Is this something that the haters dont' like? Do they want to take us back to the medical bankruptcy casino, in which one serious illness can crush a family's finances. What is the alternative to Obamacare???

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:19 | 4107208 booboo
booboo's picture

So you don't think the government will not deny you a medical service that you desperatly need to stay alive? Take another hit off the hopium bong, reality is going to bite when you finally wake up from that kool aid induced coma.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:27 | 4107234 banzai401
banzai401's picture

yep, my buddys that are UK, all have to wait 9 months on average for their 'free care', carefully designed so that most die waiting,

make no misunderstanding that the STATISTS running the USA are engineering the UK model of medicine, ... is it better than what the USA has now? Yes

but is it better than greece, or cuba? fuck no

 cheap is the cure, but that requires taking sales, lawyers, and insurance, and ama, ... out of the medical racket, let any child be a doc, just like cuba, and then we all have cheap local clinics, ... and all is good,

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:20 | 4107213 Jim B
Jim B's picture

There is a bridge somewhere that is missing a troll!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:32 | 4107218 banzai401
banzai401's picture

This  is so fucking 'ayn-rand'

So now the insurance company's will deny everybody, instead of just denying those that might file claims.

The model of USA insurance is to collect premiums and deny claims, but the anti-rand crowd wants to turn a pig into a pidgeon. You get dress an insurance company up like a pidgeon, but its still a den of pig wolves on the inside, not unlike the fucking god-damn government.

 

Soon all insurance companys will collapse cuz they have dropped everybody,

 

****

 

Here's how you fix the problem

1.) kill all medical insurance

2.) let any child become a doctor, just like cuba, kill the fucking AMA

3.) Kill the pharmaceutical sales industry, 90% of pharm cost is sales

4.) Kill all the fucking lawyers ( biggest cost for a doc, is malpractice insurance ), #1 above solves this problem by ending all fucking insurance

5.) reset the USA by terminating anybody that ever worked for the government

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:47 | 4107282 Enough Already
Enough Already's picture

Yeah, that is the best feature of Obamacare, private health insurers may no longer deny sick people coverage. Although that was true, before, as long as you maintained your health care coverage, continually. I was first laid off in May, 1997; I then went and got an individual plan so that my coverage continued. In December, 2004, I was diagnosed with cancer. My individual policy paid it all other than my $2,000 deductible and my 20% copay. I got employer covered insurance in February 2005 up until I got laid off from that job May, 2012. I paid for Cobra for one month before getting a Regence individual plan at $320/month. HSA/Catastrophic plan, with a deductible of $3500 and max out of pocket $5,000.

Fast Forward to Obamacare, my old Regence plan is cancelled and the new ACA Regence plan offered by Regence is $603.75. An increase of 89%. Plus, the deductible goes up to $5,000, max out of pocket $6,250. 

But to get back to your point, and I'll just copy it in: 

"PRIVATE HEALTH INSURERS MAY NO LONGER DENY SICK PEOPLE COVERAGE."

Yup, they can't. So, I am not going to have any insurance. If I get sick, I'll sign up then. I will save $3,840/year. And the insurance company has to accept me, if by chance I do get sick. Sure, maybe not if I have a heart attack, I would be incapacitated in the ambulance but I am at low risk for that. And if I'm in a car accident the auto insurance medical will pay. 

I have always been against the ACA, but now I'm sort of for it. This is actually pretty great. I personally paid all of those individual premiums for all of those years just to maintain my continuity of care. So, the insurance company could not deny me because of a pre-existing condition. Now I do not have to do that, anymore. 

Of course, this will bankrupt Obamacare, haha. But as a typical Progressive, you can only see one step ahead. 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:30 | 4107725 vlad335
vlad335's picture

"PRIVATE HEALTH INSURERS MAY NO LONGER DENY SICK PEOPLE COVERAGE."

Awesome. But where does it say they cannot deny claims? I have no doubt that these upcoming policies will be filled with loopholes to cover the insurance companies in rejecting payment.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:06 | 4107340 jcaz
jcaz's picture

Which people- EXACTLY- are you talking about, that did not receive health care under the current system?    Gosh, these people must be lining the streets if things are so bad now, as I'm stepping over them on my way to generate an income for which I pay half in taxes which no one who "needs" it can be held accountable for.....

You're a classic bleeding heart liberal- you see problems in your head that don't exist in real life-  you belong in Obama's cabinet.

Good luck in your Socialist society-  I'm not paying for your free ride.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:56 | 4107687 toady
toady's picture

Not trying to agree with you or the other party, but the pre-existing condition people do exist. My sister in law is one. She's had three or four major medical problems, and they've had three or four bankruptcies

Hasn't been insurable for over a decade. Probably still won't be at the rates I'm hearing.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:12 | 4107181 Reaper
Reaper's picture

Morons designed this start for Obamacare. Which morons believe that these other morons will determine how much and what kind of care we all are to receive. Obamacare law gives discretion to the moron, Sebelius, to determine healthcare for all.

Do we have a government of morons, voted in by morons, acting moronic?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:13 | 4107184 JR
JR's picture

It’s clear. If Obamacare settles into the American landscape, there is no hope for America except revolution – political upheaval – millions revolting against the government in order to survive, in order to avoid slavery. Hatred is building toward a president connected solely to the welfare class, to a welfare society, and toward an establishment political class. McCain, McConnell and Hatch are prime examples of the latter, of this widespread political scourge.

John Nolte reported today on the heated exchange between Rep. Renee Ellmers (R-NC) and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius “over one of the still-unexploded controversies in the ObamaCare law: the fact that ObamaCare's so-called ‘robust’ coverage is in reality your government forcing you to pay for coverage that includes expensive services millions will never need. Ellmers called Sebelius out specifically for forcing men to buy maternity coverage.”

Ellmers: You also brought up the issue that when you were in Kansas [as health Commissioner and governor] that you fought against discriminatory issues… As far as [ObamaCare's] essential health benefits, correct me if I'm wrong: do men not have to buy maternity care?

Sebelius: Policies will cover maternity coverage. For the young and healthy, uh, under ythirty year-olds will have a choice also of a catastrophic plan that has no maternity coverage.

Ellmers: But men are required to purchase maternity coverage.

Sebelius: Well, an insurance policy has a series of benefits whether you use them or not…

Ellmers: And that is why health care premiums are increasing, because we are forcing them to buy things that they will never need. Thank you.

Sebelius: The individual policies cover families. Men often do need maternity care for their spouses and for their families, yes.

Ellmers: A single male, aged 32, needs maternity coverage? To the best of your knowledge, has a man ever delivered a baby?

Wrote Nolte on Breitbart: “Hopefully other Republicans will start to talk more about the injustice of raising insurance rates on the middle class by forcing them to pay for coverage they will never need.

“Tuesday night, NBC News told the story of a small businessman who lost the insurance Obama promised him he could keep and he is seeing his premiums explode by 400% under ObamaCare. Part of the reason is that he is being forced to pay for maternity care.

“His wife is 59-years-old.”

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:45 | 4107266 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Ah, JR, what can one do about such bizarre contradictions, except feed them to one's montrously macrabe sense of humour, in order to laugh at the magnitude of such absurd evils? It is NOT merely that "It is almost as if Obamacare was specifically designed to wreck the U.S. economy." The American economy IS being deliberately destroyed, as an inside job. OF COURSE, "Pretty much everything that Obama told us when he was selling us on his plan has turned out to be a lie."

I agree with your view, JR, "there is no hope for America except revolution."

Check out hexagram 49, about "Revolution" in the Wilhelm-Baynes translation of the I Ching.

http://www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#49

(My intuition says #49 changing to #16.)

Revolution is the last resort, after everything else has failed, and there is nothing left. In that context, I will copy and paste what I just posted previously in response to:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-30/guest-post-obamacares-fatal-flaw

Obamacare's Fatal Flaw
_____________________

Obamacare is merely another symptom of the general psychotic breakdown of the USA, which is primarily due to its history of being controlled by legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, automatically running away with itself at an exponentially accelerating rate. True "public health care" can not be properly comprehended outside of a systematic appreciation of the overall human ecology. However, America is the greatest manifestation yet of the social pyramid system of the Neolithic style of civilization, which was primarily based upon slavery. Slavery never went away, it merely became more sophisticated, and the inability of most people to see that enabled those more sophisticated forms of slavery to run rampant, without any effective opposition. Everyone living in America is living inside of a debt slavery system, whose numbers are on exponential growth curves, to become debt insanity. Americans are generally the victims of the best brainwashing that money could buy. The most scientific psychology was applied to condition most of them to become incompetent political idiots.The real system is Wolves in sheep's clothing, making sure that enough people become Zombie Sheeple, who are kept ignorant and afraid, so that they can be controlled. Obamacare is merely more of that worm turning.

The central features of real human ecology are its death controls. The history of warfare selected for that actually be done through the maximum possible deceits. That murder system was then the platform upon which was made and maintained the monetary system, which is based on the maximum possible frauds. That is the overall context of social facts into which the psychotically dysfunctional Obamacare program enters. Since, in almost every possible way, Americans are controlled by legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, they are living in Bizarro Mirror World, where almost everything is proportionately backwards and distorted. Obamacare is merely the latest installment of that overall runaway social insanity.

Since the real world is controlled by lies, backed by violence, the real world is dominated by the best professional liars, and immaculate hypocrites, and therefore, everything they say is almost always diametrically opposite to the actual situation, since everything is manifesting in a Bizarro Mirror World Fun House. Therefore, laws like the "Patriot Act" were due to the greatest forms of treason ever yet enacted, and similarly, "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" is absolutely guaranteed to cause the opposite to what its title says it is supposed to do. However, since the dumbing down of most Americans has already been achieved all too well, there are no reasonable ways to fix these problems.

There can be no saner "public health policies" which do not address the deeply paradoxical problems around the death controls, which are central and absolutely crucial to understanding the actual operation of the overall human ecology systems. However, the American systems are based on hyperbolic deceits, aided and abetted by the mass media, etc.. Thus, it is impossible to have any saner public debates about any of these issues. Rather, there is already an enormous Gordian Knot of entangled legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, running almost everything, throughout American society. Therefore, this article about "Obamacare's Fatal Flaw" only tangentially touched upon the single most salient, current way in which American social systems are terminally crazy, and therefore, headed towards some series of psychotic breakdowns.

More radical truth about these problems would require going deeper and deeper, through layer after layer, of the legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, which are currently the convoluted ways that Americans are being controlled. It is NOT good enough to stop at any one layer of those lies, and then think one has gotten at "the truth," because the more one looks, the more one perceives that this situation is actually fractal, and there are practically infinite tunnels of deceits and frauds operating. Furthermore, there are good reasons WHY that is the real situation, since the paradoxes about death controls, and the debt controls that they back up, have no end, the same as fractal processes can endless repeat themselves, at different levels.

The medical system operates inside the monetary system, which operates inside the murder system. Since the American murder systems operate through the maximum possible deceits, and the American monetary systems operate through the maximum possible frauds, of course, Obamacare is going to backfire badly! However, in order understand that better requires understanding how and WHY the combined murder/money systems are based on the maximum possible deceit/fraud, and understanding that systematically requires appreciating the fractal nature of those, whereby basically simple methods of organized crime gradually generate almost infinitely complex patterns.

I suspect that the only plausible "solution" to the increasingly convoluted and entangled Gordian Knot of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, which almost totally dominates the lives of the American people, is the Alexandrian solution, whereby some series of psychotic breakdowns simply cuts through that Knot. It reminds me about how the magnetic fields in the Sun get tangled up, more and more, until they release their tension through solar flares. Americans are getting tangled up worse and worse inside a skein of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, controlling everything that they are doing. Just as there are different levels of possible solar flares, classified as C, M and X Flares, etc., the social storm potential building in the USA is analogous.

To push that analogy further, the colourized renditions of the Sun Spots show delta zones, were the red and blue coloured magnetic polarities get tangled up too close to each other, which is sign that the potential for a Solar Flare is building. American politics is similarly tying itself up into a Knot over Obamacare, because it is actually the single craziest thing being done at the present time. The profit from disease system, (assisted by the profit from junk food system) is the single greatest contemporary social insanity in the USA. It was built on the foundation of even greater historical insanities, which we now take for granted. But nevertheless, at the present time, none of the other almost completely crazy and corrupt systems, like the energy systems, or the military industrial complex, are as actively lobbying the government, to advance the overall ways that legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, control the lives of Americans. The FATAL FLAW is not merely some superficial aspect of "the ability of even those with a serious preexisting health condition to buy insurance at the standard premium." The deeper fatal flaw is that nearly EVERYTHING in American society is now dominated and controlled by systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, into which maelstrom enters Obamacare, to exemplify that getting worse, in much more personal ways!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:48 | 4107292 banzai401
banzai401's picture

Funny but I think we should play into the statist trap here, all of us on ZH should be demanding a CAP on health insurance premiums going up, and should demand a cap on termination of policy.

 

Note Obama at this late junction is just an insurance salesman, and the IRS is a free  collection agency.

 

The USA is ran by lawyers ( liars ), obama is a lawyer, the insurance racket is lawyers, and OC was written and designed by lawyers to create more biz ...

 

Given that the USA is terminally fucked, why are more people not playing along and demanding fixed fee $100 premium per year for all, and demanding you can't be dropped, and your premiums can't go up, ... instead the insurance companys are having the liberals control the debate, and the outcome is premiums go up, and more folks get dropped,...

 

The insurance racket is COLLECT PREMIUM, DENY CLAIMS, ... the simple fact that INSURANCE is part of the solution means the problem cannot be solved. The problem is medical care is too expensive.

Where I live its $20/day in the hospital, and $5 for a visit to a clinic and bag of pills. This is the wayt it should be, but in the USA being sick means poverty or bankruptcy. This was all cleverlery desgined by a nation of criminals.

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:53 | 4107306 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yes, banzai401: "This was all cleverlery desgined by a nation of criminals."

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:02 | 4107326 banzai401
banzai401's picture

Cannot be stressed enough "Collect premium and deny claim", that is insurance,

What they want is prepaid medical, where everybody pre-pays 50% of gross income, in advance with a $1M deductible, ... which of course means collect premium and pay out nothing.

 

The poor are exempt, the gubmint are exempt the unions are exempt, the only people who will get fucked by obama-care is those who work and save, how fucking 'ayn rand' in our times.

I have said, and I will say again "Get to your Galt's Gulch and Quick", there is nothing left in the USA worth saving, except your life, and your life savings.

 

 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:48 | 4107426 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Hurry!!  Not a moment to spare!!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:32 | 4107400 JR
JR's picture

The deeper fatal flaw is that nearly EVERYTHING in American society is now dominated and controlled by systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, into which maelstrom enters Obamacare… --  Radical Marijuana 

Even in Obama’s speech today, Rad, one sentence after another was composed of multiple layers of lies - lies to cover the truth. The truth is Obamacare is nothing less than a top down Soviet plan to force us to accept the Left’s socialist Utopian misery.

As such it employs Stalinesque thuggery: insurance industry executives and their trade associations fear White House retribution from Obama’s political mobsters if they speak out against it. Speak out and “behind the scenes, the knives come out…” And it's the media's job to cover the dirty tracks...

In truth, Obama’s a fanatic, an ideologue shill, a circus barker selling socialism under the label of medical snake oil. But his motive is dire: “To destroy existing society, and use the power of the law to do it.”

Sources: White House told insurance execs to keep quiet on Obamacare
CNN ^ | 10-30-13 | Drew Griffin and Chris Frates, CNN Special Investigations Unit

Posted on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:17:36 PM by sheikdetailfeather

(CNN) -- White House officials have pressured insurance industry executives to keep quiet amid mounting criticism over Obamacare's rollout, insurance industry sources told CNN.

After insurance officials publicly criticized the implementation, White House staffers contacted insurers to express their displeasure, industry insiders said.

Multiple sources declined to speak publicly about the push back because they fear retribution. …

But Bob Laszewski, who heads a consulting firm for big insurance companies, did talk on the record.

"The White House is exerting massive pressure on the industry, including the trade associations, to keep quiet," he said.

Laszewski, who's been a vocal critic of Obamacare, said he's been asked by insurance executives to speak out because they feel defenseless against an administration that is regulating their business -- and a big customer.

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...

http://209.157.64.200/focus/news/3085651/posts?page=28

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:57 | 4107788 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

For sure, JR!  It appears that Zero Hedge thought so too, as the first new story I noticed being featured when I linked to look at the recent news was this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-30/obama-administration-forcing-in...

"Just when you think the Obama Administration can’t stoop any lower they immediately come in and surprise you."

As you already know, JR, the "Stalinesque thuggery" that the Obama administration is capable of, due to advances in technology, is potentially trillions of times worse than anything Stalin was able to do! Unfortunately, we probably have not seen anything yet. You will likely recall that Kyle Bass said that he was told that the government PLANS to destroy the dollar. When the US Dollar loses its status as the global reserve currency, I would expect most things to cost about 50% more in the USA. I would expect democidal martial law to follow from the consequences of the majority of people in the USA being rudely awakened in that manner, since a very large portion of the population would be unable to afford to live in any decent way if they had to pay 50% more for everything they were accustomed to. The adjustments which would have to be made would indeed become a "long emergency!"

Tragically, there is no reasonable doubt in my mind that the shadow government of the USA is deliberately destroying its economy. What I perceive is an overall pattern of systematically turning most Americans into Zombie Sheeple, that could be routinely fleeced more and more, until they were slaughtered.

(I WISH that I did not believe that, however, the more I learned the worse it got, and I can not avoid that conclusion now, as the only way to fit all the pieces of the puzzle that I know into a pattern. I HOPE that I am wrong!)

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:14 | 4107188 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Two signs that someone is going to post an Obamacare Apocalypse on ZH:

1. Sun comes up.

2. Sun goes down.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:14 | 4107196 MedicalQuack
MedicalQuack's picture

You might want to read my post as I kind said a couple days ago on what the president said with addressing the under insured and bare bones policies out there.    Besides insurers have been doing this for years way Obamacare even existed, has happened to me with one plan phased out and having to sign up for another one; however the people seeing huge unaffordable increases need to sniff the data on that as insurers make mistakes right and left with their algorithms all the time and who knows what parameters they have set for risk to assign a new premium cost. 

That's where your answers are and right now insurers have increased their segmentation models almost out of control at some point. 

It was sad the way this was reported out of context and blamed totally on Obamacare as the law is now requiring "real" insurance coverage and not bare bones only as the insurers marketed due to affordability as it stands today.

http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2013/10/provisions-of-affordable-care.html

And, insurers have been cancelling and re-issuing insurance policies long before Obamacare was even around, has happened to me but now with the law the under insured type of polices are not legal anymore.  For those who are getting big numbers, as questions as it's the insurers running their risk assessments and there's tons of room for them to makes errors believe me.  Read this on how they are firing doctors, have examples of how they fired some by mistake and then had to tell customers never mind, your MD is still in network...Aetna, United have done it as well as Blue Cross so go to the insurer and go up levels if you need to find out why the premiums went up and then go shop (when it works) at Healthcare.gov or use the manual methodologies of the phone too. 

http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2013/10/insurance-company-in-network-comp...

Remember it is the insurer setting your premiums if bought outside the government exchange and don't every algorithm you meet today.  One other item to note as well is that doctors, and this is what it is in California, will be getting reimbursed at about 30% less from consumers who have policies bought though the exchange.  To some that's a real bonus when you look at what United has done in some areas with complex contracts to where they end up paying doctors less than Medicare rates.

http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-aafp-confronts-united-healthc...

I am still trying to find out about the software used for the entire exchange program as Oracle and Microsoft has turnkey state exchange platforms out there to use which still needed some coding work but a lot shorter than what it appears QSSI, that division of United was doing with perhaps writing code from the bottom up and doing some of it in India, where the company domicile is listed on the 15 pages of SEC listed subsidiary companies..now that's worth a look too as a lot of the action today is taking place with sub companies.

http://ducknetweb.blogspot.com/2013/10/india-technology-to-fix-us.html

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:43 | 4107280 StrangerInAStra...
StrangerInAStrangeLand's picture

You sound like you work for the government or one of the Private Exchanges or one of the tech companies that think they're going to make zillions from this legislation off of our backs (I've got news for you!).  No amount of apologies or rationalizations is going to fix this mess or sell anybody on your substandard product.  The rates are the same if you buy on or off the Exchanges, use or don't use an agent.

The fact of the matter is that we were lied to when this legislation passed.  Blatantly and flat out lied to.  Now that the screws are coming down and the real Obamacare is being rolled out (the bait was offered at the beginning in 2010, 2011 and 2012 with minor things happening, mostly things people like to create a warm fuzzy feeling that maybe this legislation wasn't so bad.  Of course they kept all their machinations under wraps until just a week or two before October 1, 2013 when all of a sudden the IRS and DOL released a whole bunch of New Rules! where we found out just how badly we were going to be gored.  Now we're seeing the switch, and the switch is where we get collectively ripped off, and we DO NOT WANT IT.

You can try to manufacture consent at the point of a government gun, but it will not work.

Repeal it.

Oh, and those underinsured policies?  More government propaganda.  Most people had just fine coverage.  Coverage that they liked at a price they wanted to pay.  Now they get neither.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:17 | 4107202 Kantbelieveit
Kantbelieveit's picture

Some perspective, please. It is objectively stupid and self defeating to under-insure for health care. Even if you have perfect health, you are vulnerable to infection illness and accidents. Attacking Obamacare because it forces people to get proper insurance is like attacking seat belt laws. The right to be stupid does not rule supreme.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:29 | 4107239 JR
JR's picture

Peter Schiff best counters your argument with the following from "The Website Is Fixable, Obamacare Isn't!"”

“[H]igh-deductible, catastrophic plans are precisely what young people should be buying in the first place. They are inexpensive because they provide coverage for unlikely, but expensive, events. Routine care is best paid for out-of-pocket by value conscious consumers. But Obamacare outlaws these plans, in favor of what amounts to prepaid medical treatment that shifts the cost of services to taxpayers. In such a system, patients have no incentive to contain costs. Since the biggest factor driving health care costs higher in the first place has been the over use of insurance that results from government-provided tax incentives, and the lack of cost accountability that results from a third-party payer system, Obamacare will bend the cost curve even higher. The fact that Obamacare does nothing to rein in costs while providing an open-ended insurance subsidy may be good news for hospitals and insurance companies, but it's bad news for taxpayers, on whom this increased burden will ultimately fall.”

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-29/peter-schiff-blasts-website-fixable-obamacare-isnt

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:39 | 4107268 banzai401
banzai401's picture

While in general I only see OC as an opt-out tax,

 

There is a point that if OC were 'real' that it could pass the cost of the old onto the young,

 

The old do control the gubmint, and contrary to myth the old are not done fucking the young in the arse, until the young are in spain/greek poverty.

The best thing the young can do today in the USA is become a part of the FSA and simply have zero income, ...

 

The gubmint will continue to have the FED BUY the debt to pay the bill's.

Nobody needs to work,

Free health care for all, but it requires enslaving the young, what a brilliant fucking concept, why is the brown-shirts not selling Obama's all volunteer army harder?

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:09 | 4107476 JR
JR's picture

America has a welfare problem. And welfare for Medicaid is growing exponentially, massively costing taxpayers, both on the state and federal levels.

The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities wrote on May 8, 2013 that “in 2012, Medicaid provided health coverage for 67 million low-income Americans over the course of the year, including 32 million children, 19 million adults (mostly low-income working parents), 6 million seniors, and 11 million persons with disabilities, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates.

Children account for nearly half of all Medicaid enrollees but just one-fifth of Medicaid spending. Only one-quarter of Medicaid enrollees are seniors or persons with disabilities, but because these beneficiaries need more (and more costly) health care services, they account for nearly two-thirds of all Medicaid spending.

Medicaid is sometimes confused with Medicare, the federally administered, federally funded health insurance program for people over 65 and some people with disabilities. Unlike Medicaid, Medicare is not limited to those with low incomes and resources. More than 9 million low-income seniors and people with disabilities — so-called “dual eligibles” — are enrolled in both Medicare and Medicaid.

The Heritage Foundation reports that “Obamacare will add $1.8 trillion to federal health care spending by 2023. By 2015, health care spending will overtake Social Security as the largest budget item, including Obamacare’s coverage expansion provisions: a massive expansion of Medicaid and subsidies for the new health insurance exchanges.”

John Hood, president of the John Locke Foundation, a state-policy think tank based in North Carolina, and the author of, among other books, Investor Politics, wrote in 2010 on National Affairs:

“Medicaid already covers 60 million Americans and accounts for 16 cents of every dollar spent on medical services in the United States (I understand it now accounts for one quarter of every dollar spent). …

“Under Obamacare…as a result of loosened eligibility requirements, the bill's proponents expect some 16 million more Americans to sign up for Medicaid between 2014 (when the new rules go into effect) and 2019. This enormous increase in the Medicaid rolls represents about half of Obamacare's projected reduction in the number of uninsured Americans.

“On paper, this Medicaid expansion also accounts for about half of the Congressional Budget Office's $940 billion cost projection over the new law's first 10 years. But the effects of expanding Medicaid — one of the most expensive, unwieldy, and perverse creations of American government — will almost certainly be much larger, more extensive, and more dramatic than the CBO's computations suggest. …

“Obamacare will therefore put Medicaid increasingly at the heart of our health-care system. For reformers truly interested in "bending the cost curve," this is very bad news: The flaws of the existing Medicaid program — and the extraordinary strain they place on the nation's finances — are high among the reasons why health-care reform is needed in the first place. And Obamacare's exacerbation of those flaws is high among the reasons why the new law will need to be rolled back, and why any serious alternative proposal for improving our health-care system must include Medicaid reform…

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/how-to-fix-medicaid

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2223#

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:30 | 4107243 lead salad
lead salad's picture

Wow...the Obumble's internet brownshirts are out in force tonight.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:47 | 4107296 PubliusTacitus
PubliusTacitus's picture

Some economics please, idiot.

 

When you incentivize over-use, which all the exchange plans do, you increase cost.

 

The goal was to decrease cost, moron.

 

PS, you're also wrong about seat belt laws.  Thankfully, your last sentence is correct, otherwise you would be in charge (though you seem to be making great headway with this Obamacare debacle).

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:13 | 4107361 jcaz
jcaz's picture

Only the stupid need to be told what level of "insurance" they require, dude-  and a little tip?  When it's ALL the same, it's not "insurance" anymore,  it's a dictatorship.

But hey, don't let "Freedom of Choice" get in the way of your point.....

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:32 | 4107401 my_nym
my_nym's picture

Attacking Obamacare because it forces people to get proper insurance is like attacking seat belt laws. The right to be stupid does not rule supreme.

The right to try to manage risk for others based on coercion and violence in the name of public health doesn't rule supreme, especially given that people adapt and your use of violence and coercion against them (for their own good) may not actually do that much good in general anyway.

Condoms and car seat belts are applied to the human body to save lives. For both, there is an abundance of evidence of benefit to individuals directly exposed to risk. When evidence of benefit is sought at population level it becomes much harder to show beneficial effects. We look at evidence that suggests that the safety benefits of seat belts are offset by behavioural adaptation...

(The Lancet; 355 (9201): 400-403
January 29, 2000
Condoms and seat belts: the parallels and the lessons
Department of Sexually Transmitted Diseases, Royal
Free and University College Medical School,
The Mortimer Market Centre, Mortimer Market,
London WC1E 6AU, UK
Richens, John; Imrie, John; Copas, Andrew)

 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:08 | 4107473 CoolBeans
CoolBeans's picture

Really!?  Really?

Buckling my seat belt is free and I do it to protect myself from the idiots on the road.  Plus, if I don't click-it, I could get a ticket for a nominal cost (at least in this state).  

Pray tell, how is buckling my seat belt like the wallet-rape that is ObamaDoesn'tCare?  WTF - I can get 3xpremium increase and a deductible that goes from a few thousand to several thousand?

 

With all due respect - Are you fucking daft?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:20 | 4107212 Prime Rib
Prime Rib's picture

My Orthopedist said there are hundreds of pages of new regulations  for his specialty. If he is forced to comply with them he will close his practice.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:21 | 4107214 StrangerInAStra...
StrangerInAStrangeLand's picture

Obamacare has resulted in a notification of cancellation of my current individual health insurance plan which will no longer be offered after 1/1/14 (I could extend it for one year if I artificially renew prior to year end - my normal renewal date is April); part of the ACA "new rules" is that the IRS took away the small business tax deduction for providing health insurance effective 1/1/14.  On top of that I'm in complete sticker shock as my current $405 in monthly premiums paid on a pre-tax basis will now have to be paid with after tax dollars.  I quoted Obamacare compliant plans and the cost for worse coverage will now be $650 for a silver plan.  The new Obamacare plan that is closest to what I'm now paying will have very bad coverage (higher deductible, higher max. out of pockets).  Plans that have my current benefits would cost over a $1,000 a month.  I qualify for subsidies, but they in no way compensate for the increased costs.  Not even close.  And I wouldn't dream of buying a plan on the public exchange.  Everybody knows they're not going to have any doctors in their networks.

Result?  Even though I could keep my "current" plan for another year by early renewing, what would be the point?  I no longer have a tax deduction and even my current plan is going to cost me much more effective 1/1/14 because I can't pay on a pre-tax basis anymore.   I've been continuously covered for 24 years.  Incredible. 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:26 | 4107220 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Can someone with photo posting privilege PLEASE post that picture of Nancy Pelosi with that gavel? The one she was carrying after the Democrat super majority passed Obamacare....

Thanks.

It's this one:

https://www.google.com/search?q=nancy+pelosi+giant+gavel+obamacare&clien...

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:39 | 4107269 Lordflin
Lordflin's picture

Obama in bed with big business???

Say it ain't so...!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:51 | 4107302 banzai401
banzai401's picture

ObamaCare(romneyCare) clearly means everyone in the medical biz gets to see revenue go up 4-10X or maybe more, ...
Wall street loves OC/RC, ...

 

Main street hates OC/RC

 

Fuck main street, long live the DARK-SIDE

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:45 | 4107290 Prime Rib
Prime Rib's picture

Bigger and better underground economy on the horizon - providers of all services as well as employers and employees will all participate in less and less reporting to the IRS and other govt. agencies. 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:50 | 4107300 Occams_Chainsaw
Occams_Chainsaw's picture

So let's go Fight Club on these turds.  All people who actually pay in should stop and bring the insurance companies to their knees.  Then the insurance companies would send their lobbyists to kill the Congress critters and in the ensuing battle the lobbyists also get killed.  Then....we get a clean slate.  An empty DC......the great American Dream!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:55 | 4107315 banzai401
banzai401's picture

collective intelligence on the behalf of the moron class ( 97% ) of the US public is not going to happen,

 

60% of the USA gets free medical from the gumint, ( cops, mil, judges, welfare hoes )

20% work, and pay, ... and live in fear of losing their job

20% live on the street, and get care, and simply ignore the bills

 

My feeling is that given the IRS is charge of medical collection, that DEBTOR-PRISON will very soon be on the agenda, its only logical to get the last drop of blood out of the USA remaining 20% that has assets.

 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 21:52 | 4107304 all-priced-in
all-priced-in's picture

If you need proof that Obama knew the ACA was a disaster - all you need to do is look at the calendar.

Wait until after the election to start the shitty part - hoping that most voters will get use to it - before the next election.

 

 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:03 | 4107331 object_orient
object_orient's picture

I thought some of article was exaggerated, so I checked.

In California, a couple earning $64,000 a year would not qualify for health care subsidies. A bronze plan for them through Kaiser would cost them about $1,300 each month, or $15,600 a year. But if that same family earned just $2,000 less, it would qualify for over $14,000 in annual health care subsidies, dropping their premiums for that same Kaiser plan to less than $100 per month.

I couldn't duplicate the numbers because the zip code and ages weren't listed. I used 60 for both people. The premium for a crappy Kaiser Bronze plan at 64k income was $960. At 62k income the premium drops to $339. Pretty staggering. The claim holds that it does indeed pay more to work less at certain income thresholds. Why not make it graduated like income taxes? Fucking stupid.

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:28 | 4107389 banzai401
banzai401's picture

This is absolute bullshit,

Unless you have paid it out, and have the fucking policy in your hand, and have seen all the small-print including the deductible, and caveats your talking shit.

All is marketing bullshit, ... you don't even know you have been accepted, like I said above "unless you have the policy in your hand", then you don't have a leg to stand on, in this debate.

A quote is just bullshit, a website quote is even bigger bullshit.

 

I think it would be far better to find a REP who could sit down and determine real costs. But again, until I got back the policy post-check-up, after all even after you PAY the insurance company  can still change everything based on their findings.

 

Nothing has fucking changed in the way insurance works, its still 'collect premium, deny claim', all bullshit from obama about something 'changing' is bullshit, they still are going to make sure if there is a remote chance that they have to pay out on you, that they will get a LB of flesh from you in advance, or not give you the policy at all,

At best the only thing OC has done is increase premiums

 

***

 

But regarding your argument fuck yes, the only walk-away on OC is that if you have money, you OPT-OUT, and use your lowest 'income' as basis and PAY not to play. Preferrably however you have it all setup so that you have zero-income, and you enjoy the good life.

 

The fucking middle class, is fucking extinct, there is only the hidden class, and the fucking begging class, just the way TPTB wants it,.

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:13 | 4107359 banzai401
banzai401's picture

Lets clear up one big lie here, the USA economy was destroyed a long time ago,

 

Blaming obama-care (romney) for the collapse is 100% bullshit, but nonetheless obama-care is still fun blogger-fodder.

 

If your still living the USA your going to see all your money stolen, your wife and children forced into prostitution, and your dog being eaten by your neighbors. Your ass will end up in 'prison' where you will be raped by an 'obama brown-shirt safe anal sex' expert.

 

The USA is terminally FUCKED, there is NO redemption, and there is NOTHING worth fighting for, its every man for himself, those that stay to 'fight' are only staying to die, and see everything they have worked for to be stolen.

 

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:21 | 4107370 my_nym
my_nym's picture

Not surprising that Obama Inc. is better at winning elections than running the country.  Remember all their data mining and information processing capabilities in the campaign: 

"We are going to measure every single thing in this campaign," he said after taking the job. He hired an analytics department five times as large as that of the 2008 operation, with an official "chief scientist" for the Chicago headquarters named Rayid Ghani, who in a previous life crunched huge data sets to, among other things, maximize the efficiency of supermarket sales promotions.

 Exactly what that team of dozens of data crunchers was doing, however, was a closely held secret.

"They are our nuclear codes," campaign spokesman Ben LaBolt would say when asked about the efforts. Around the office, data-mining experiments were given mysterious code names such as Narwhal and Dreamcatcher. The team even worked at a remove from the rest of the campaign staff, setting up shop in a windowless room at the north end of the vast headquarters office. The "scientists" created regular briefings on their work for the President and top aides in the White House's Roosevelt Room, but public details were in short supply as the campaign guarded what it believed to be its biggest institutional advantage over Mitt Romney's campaign: its data.  (How Obama's data crunchers helped him win)

 If only they were as motivated and efficient when it came time to process information for the entertainer in chief's healthcare law, huh?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:36 | 4107402 mark mchugh
mark mchugh's picture

Know why health care costs so much in the US?  Because (directly or indirectly) the government pays well over half of all health care costs and has for many years.  So what we've actually had is a socialist system that allows profiteering. That's always a toxic mix.

As people are now figuring out, Obamacare was designed to help the profiteers, and the performance of health care stocks since it passed should have told you that.

The only thing surprising about all of this is that people are surprised that the government didn't act in their best interest. Imagine that.

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:22 | 4107504 honestann
honestann's picture

True, but that's only half the answer.  More to the point, health insurance is inherently grossly inefficient and destructive.

I must be clear about one thing.  There is nothing inefficient or destructive about completely unregulated catastrophic health care.  These policies can actually makes perfect sense, and be efficient for everyone.

You might ask: Why the distinction?

Probably the single worst aspect of conventional health care policies is this: they virtually eliminate all consideration of whether the cost of any given visit, or test, or procedure, or medicine is worth the expense.  The supposed buyer of health care can visit a doctor for any reason, even the slightest discomfort, no matter how often they have that discomfort and no matter how probable the visit has no benefit.  And so, individuals make no effort to evaluate how often to visit doctors, get tests, visit specialists, get multiple opinions, get procedures and decide how much to spend for any given health care issue.  Instead, people just go for everything.  In fact, the very notion that they paid for coverage encourages most individuals to "get their money worth" by consuming as many health care resources as they possibly can.

The dynamic is the same on the doctor/clinic side.  The more visits, tests, procedures and medication they advise, the more money they make.

So everything about conventional health insurance is counterproductive to efficiency.  And, in fact, conventional health insurance is most often contrary to good health, since people adopt the notion "get fixed" (at no extra cost to them) rather than "live a healthy life".

The result is an unhealthy population wasting endless financial resources on useless, counterproductive visits, tests, procedures and medications.

But wait!  Why is "catastrophic care" any different?  The answer is, this coverage does not encourage individuals to make pointless visits to doctors, take pointless tests, get pointless procedures and take pointless medications.  Why?  Because none of this is covered by the insurance - the individual must bear the entire cost, and is therefore has a very real incentive to figure out whether every visit, test, procedure, medication (that is, every expense) is worth the money or not.

However, if an individual suffers some catastrophic health problem, there is no question visits, tests, procedures and medications are appropriate!  And so, at least the majority of expenses are not wasted.

This conclusion, that conventional health insurance is horrible and grossly inefficient, while catastrophic health care insurance is sensible has become even more extraordinarily true in the past few years as government and insurance-company imposed health care regulations have gotten egregious.  Most individuals I know refuse to buy health insurance.  When they decide a doctor visit is warranted, they go to the doctor and pay cash.  They have learned to always state in advance that they will be paying cash for the visit.  And when the doctor advises tests or procedures they also ask for the cash prices.  Over the past 10 years or so, the cash prices have been diverging more and more radically from "normal prices", for many reasons (vastly less paperwork to do, no collection risk, no hassles from insurance companies about whether the expense was justified, etc).  10 years ago the "cash discount" averaged about 25%.  Today they tell me the "cash discount" averages between 50% and 90%, depending on which doctor, service, test, procedure, etc.  In other words, health care without health insurance is now 1/2 to 1/10 as expensive!  One individual I know in the USSA used to fly to Thailand or elsewhere to get non-trivial (expensive) health care to reduce his costs.  Now that he knows how to shop around in the USSA for doctors willing to work on a cash basis (and no government or insurance company paperwork), he usually finds prices in the USSA not high enough to justify the expense of the overseas travel required to get better prices elsewhere.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:39 | 4107656 mark mchugh
mark mchugh's picture

Excellent points.

Your illustrations of the "cash price" touches on another point: Most of what we spend on health care doesn't go to the people who actually provide the care.  It goes through endless levels of administration, selling procedures and pharmaceuticals that provide little benefit in many cases.

So it's not really about health care, it's about marketing superfluous goods and services to consumers who are spending someone else's money more often than not.

But the bottom line I was trying to point out is of the $2.7 Trillion Americans spent on healthcare in 2011, $1.2 trillion came directly from the government.

But those figures do not count the health insurance cost of government employees or all the people who get paid by the government indirectly (defense contractors, etc).  That's easily another $500 billion, so government actually paid at least 63% (with all the trickle-down, it's even higher) of all healthcare costs, so healthcare's not really private industry.

The inefficiencies of the approach that you described so well are the result of  system awash with government money that has driven up costs for everyone and profits for corporations.  Healthcare now represents over 17% of GDP, and here's where it gets crazy...these morons worship at the altar of GDP, so they won't do anything to lower the costs because that would mean losing precious GDP.  So rest assured Obamacare will be "pro-growth."

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 19:02 | 4110012 honestann
honestann's picture

Yup, Obamacare is pro-growth in the same way as aggressive cancer.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:36 | 4107403 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

#11 It is time for the guillotines.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:42 | 4107411 dunce
dunce's picture

Democrats are evil lying baby killing butt pluggers, but they are not stupid despite all the " i did not know nonsense". So they must know that most people who see the monthly cost and the giant deductible will elect to pay the penalty and go with no insurance. You know no hospital will turn anyone away that is in serious need of medical care. How do they intend to get to the end game which is single payer.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:57 | 4107444 Homerpalooza
Homerpalooza's picture

And then Zerohedge jumped the shark and turned into this.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:58 | 4107445 CoolBeans
CoolBeans's picture

Even if people signed up - bankruptcies will still be an issue...(not just for those who opt for the fine).  With huge deductibles, people are going to get swamped with medical bills very quickly despite paying thru the nose for these assinine premiums.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:44 | 4107676 KCMLO
KCMLO's picture

So true!  60% "catastrophic" coverage is pure bullshit.  If you're 25 and you get hit with a $10,000 hospital bill, paying $4,000 is just as idiotic as paying $10,000.  I'd just walk away in both cases.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:37 | 4107535 Notarocketscientist
Notarocketscientist's picture

Good - I love it!  Slay the evil beast

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:10 | 4107596 Hongcha
Hongcha's picture

This screaming piecemeal abortion is going to get slid off the table into a pail and right soon.

What a cataclysmic fuckup by this Admin and its legion of suckup Ivy League iKidz.

The Presidency of the United States of America reduced to a Tony Robbins infomercial replete with a glassy-eyed, handpicked audience in the background.

I am beginning to think this one is going to finally swamp the boat.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:28 | 4107636 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

My wife and I are actually thinking about trying to make less money because it no longer pays to be successful.  I'll be a stay at home dad and play all day.  Fuck it.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:05 | 4107701 Beorn
Beorn's picture
Universal Health Care – The Final Solution to the Social Security and Medicare Problems

April 29, 2009

 

http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/universal-health-care-the/187183

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:53 | 4107742 ItsDanger
ItsDanger's picture

When was the last time you saw an actuary on these talk shows?  They could crush this affordable care act BS in seconds.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:23 | 4107768 vlad335
vlad335's picture

Watching TV last night all the leftwing talking heads were on the exact same page, saying the same thing. "All these policies being cancelled were terrible plans. The ACA will offer better coverage for everyone."

Wow! The audacity to go on TV and say this to the American people. As if a 60/40 plan with a $6000 deductable is in some way better. Prior to the ACA, an insurance company would not offer this plan because no one would ever buy it. With a captive audience, they can sell pretend insurance and you can pretend to be insured.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:44 | 4107797 daemon
daemon's picture
"10 Signs That Obamacare Is Going To Wreck The U.S. Economy"

 

Wasn't the US economy wrecked long before Obamacare made it's appearance, anyway ?

Some of the articles I read on this site, in the past, clearly make me think so .

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:37 | 4107917 proLiberty
proLiberty's picture

I was all for living at the expense of others until I found out that I was going to have to allow others to live at my expense, and I couldn't opt out.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 07:57 | 4108044 Hey Assholes
Hey Assholes's picture

The point of this is to destroy the current system so that the sheeple beg for nationalization. Then it really gets bad.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:17 | 4108101 pelican
pelican's picture

Yo G, I am using my O Phone right now to report everyone who doesn't support O Care as racist.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 23:05 | 4110690 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

Hey Homey, where's da nex flash mob at? "My People" app is down

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:42 | 4108165 deerhunter
deerhunter's picture

three and a half years ago I was hit broadside by an Expedition and I was in a Corolla.  He knocked my car up and over the sidewalk on a city side street while running a stop sign.  Perfect T-bone.  He looked me dead in the eyes backed up and drove off.  Thankfully my windows were up and my left shoulder hit the window first then my head.  I was down but not out.  Three and a half years later my own insurance company because it was hit and run has not settled payment to me for my blown out left shoulder.  It falls under the uninsured/underinsured portion of your car insurance.  Last week they replied to requests from my attorney who will take 33% of whatever they decide me not being able to lift more than 15 lbs with my left arm for life is worth.  I had 2 MRI's on that shoulder.  One with insurance was billed at 2100 dollars and one as a cash payment with reading of results 450.00.  Same test, same equipment, same medical school level doing the reading.  Wonder why health care is F-ed in this country?  That is part of your answer.  Layers and layers of paperwork,  legislation,  government regulations and more.  Insurance companies and attorneys are equally hated until you need them.  Then,  they don't have your back they have your nuts and your wallets.  I was discussing cash only doctor's officies with my family doctor ten years ago.  I think my next idea I just might run with.  Two other ideas of mine are already on the market being sold.  Bagel slicers and cheater glasses that drop down inside baseball cap visors for fishermen trying to tie on fishhooks when the old eyeballs start to fade.  Next new idea goes to market.  Stay thirsty and keep your chins up.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 10:32 | 4108486 torak
torak's picture

Did you vote your incumbant into office one more time?
Did you vote for a corporate sponsored sock puppet?

Then fucking get over it.  You did this to yourself.  Stop bitching.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 12:48 | 4108892 dadichris
dadichris's picture

Lame article.  Obamacare is a pimple on the wrecking ball of the Fed. Everything that anyone an both sides of the isle could possibly complain about in the U.S. can be traced back to Fed policies.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 14:35 | 4109235 MarsInScorpio
MarsInScorpio's picture

How much of a pathological liar is Obama? Consider this:

For 16 years, Obama's OFFICIAL literary bio listed Kenya as his birthplace. This is the bio that preceded every introduction of Obama at a speech, or other function where he was formally introduced. He read it, and he approved it before it was posted on his agent's website. This fact is VERY well documented.

His bio birthplace was changed the April following the February decision to run for president. That means he has publicly claimed Kenya as his birthplace far, far, longer than he has claimed the US.

Only one of two conclusions can be arrived at:

1) He was born in America, and lied about being born in Kenya as a matter of substantiating his claims for foreign student loans and the cachet of being a black African (pathological liar, still fighting the inner-shame of being half white so he makes himself African black, for both its social prestige, and its financial benefits obtaining an Ivy League education), or

2) He was born in Kenya just as he claimed in his bio, and only changed it to America, using the Certificate of Birth filed by his grandparents. It lists their home as his birthplace - which every Obama apologist pretends it doesn't say, since his latest story is that he was born in a Honolulu hospital.

Regardless, they listed their home as his birth place ensuring that if he ever needed it, he could claim American citizenship. He played this card when he decided to run for president.

(Interestingly, he now produces a regular birth certificate from the hospital - raising the question of why his grandparents bothered to file the Certificate of Birth a few days after his birth since it obviously wasn't needed to document his birth. And don't forget they claimed his birth happened in their house - why would they do that if he was born in a Honolulu hospital? Again you would have to be a pathological liar to do that shamelessly).

Sorry, but his telling the world he was born in Kenya for 16-years in his official literary bio doesn't add up to his now proclaimed birth in Honolulu.

As an aside, it was this revelation that Breitbart was going to make - but Breitbart's oh so well-timed "heart attack" occurred the day before he was going to release the bio story. What a coincidence . . .

The MSM has turned a blind eye to the reality that if someone white told the same lie for either rationalization, that white would be laughed out of politics as a full-blown whack job.

But the Black Racist MSM is just as sickeningly pathological in its lying. Thus, they bury it, just as they are burying the question of "Where, and from whom, inserted the YouTube video excuse into the Obama rationalization for Libya?"

Regardless, the birth lies are enough to judge Obama psychotically sociopathic and a pathological liar.

In short, Obama is mentally ill to a psychotic degree - but just as Hitler, another mentally ill dictator who could function in society day-to-day destroying Germany, so too Obama - with all his enablers - can function day-to-day destroying America.

Regardless, this is only one of dozens of instances where Obama has shown that he is mentally ill. America has a delusional front man as a facade for the real power brokers such as Valerie Jarrett - who called the shots about Benghazi while Obama and Clinton were in their respective residences passed-out from another night of their alcoholic drinking sessions.

The Obamabots like to take facts like these and claim they are somehow delusional.

But this bio was his self-written official bio - not some theory produced by a third-party. It was what he posted on his agent's web site for 16 years. They are his claims - not those of another party.

The only people wearing tin-foil hats in all this are the lunatics who still support this psychotic sociopath and pathological liar.

So, how much of a pathological liar - how mentally ill - is Obama . . . ?
-30-

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 21:54 | 4110498 kekekekekekeke
kekekekekekeke's picture

can you wreck something that is FUBAR

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