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First Glimpse Of China's Nuclear Submarine Fleet

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Following Japan's scrambling of fighter jets for the 3rd day in a row, China has revealed that its first fleet of nuclear submarines has started sea patrols, in the latest sign of its military’s growing confidence which has raised concerns in the region. As The FT reports, Xinhua, China's official news agency, released photographs of what appeared to be Xia-class vessels – China’s first generation of nuclear-armed submarines, which are several decades old – saying they were being “declassified” for the first time, adding with supremely colorful language that, the subs would "gallop to the depths of the ocean, serving as mysterious forces igniting the sound of thunder in the deep sea", and be an "assassin’s mace that would make adversaries tremble".

 

 

Via The FT,

...

 

While the submarines displayed on Sunday were the older generation of nuclear vessels that are part of China’s northern fleet – and not the more advanced Jin-class based at the southern Chinese island of Hainan – the display in the domestic media nonetheless reflects the Chinese military’s growing confidence.

 

It is still the first time that the Xia class has been discussed in such detail in China’s state-run media,” said Taylor Fravel, an expert on Chinese security at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the US. “As China’s military modernisation continues to advance, the PLA has become more willing to discuss its capabilities.”

 

...

 

In recent years, the People’s Liberation Army Navy has become increasingly active in the Pacific, particularly in staking Chinese claims to disputed maritime territory in the South China Sea.

 

Chinese ships and aircraft have also become more aggressive in challenging Japanese control of the Senkaku Islands – which China calls the Diaoyu – in the East China Sea. Japan has administered the uninhabited group for decades, but China and Taiwan both claim sovereignty.

 


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Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:24 | Link to Comment johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

The good news is they haven't been spotted off the coast of California yet.

 

The bad news is the diesel electrics apparently have already demonstrated their SLBM capbailities....

 

http://powip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/mystery-missle.jpg

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-7036716.html

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:28 | Link to Comment Jam Akin
Jam Akin's picture

Screw this - have enough to worry about much closer to home.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:42 | Link to Comment markmotive
markmotive's picture

With 2 superpowers there were at least 9 times the world nearly entered nuclear war.

http://www.planbeconomics.com/2013/05/the-9-times-world-almost-entered.html

With 3 I'd expect the worst.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:46 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

I might have not been seeing things right, but it looks like that guy at 0:38 was yelling into a metal tube that looked like the exhaust on my old Firebird.

.. and I’ve never served on a sub but my guess is that if something pops a hole in the hull, it won’t be small, it’s time to close some hatches and it’s lights out for anybody left in the in the compartment.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:54 | Link to Comment TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Rumor has it that these first gen Chinese nuclear subs are as loud as a Caterpillar 797F, and they have approximately the same drag coefficient.

Hey, that reminds me, let's cue those year old videos of those Chinese "stealth" fighter jets...

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:27 | Link to Comment Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Gawd, even the North Koreans put out better propaganda videos than that.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:49 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

Dang! I knew I saw the inside of that sub before..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-12ZtRkMsms

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:01 | Link to Comment MeMadMax
MeMadMax's picture

Cheap russian sub copies, of old russian subs no less...

 

China does not fail to surprise >_>

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:55 | Link to Comment Hooter Shaker
Hooter Shaker's picture

Made in China.  It will be broke in a couple weeks.  I hope the "brother that can swallow the sea" is on the sub...

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:50 | Link to Comment mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"gallop to the depths of the ocean, serving as mysterious forces igniting the sound of thunder in the deep sea", and be an "assassin’s mace that would make adversaries tremble".

They go down. They usually come up, crew alive or not. Impressive shit.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:23 | Link to Comment lewy14
lewy14's picture

China outsourcing agit-prop content creation to North Korea.

Sad jobless Chinese agit-prop content peeps are sad.

[Will soon be working for BuzzFeed.]

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:25 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

"Chinese Citizenism submarine boatings of make strong anti-running dog imperialist lackies up the flee in the fronting of People's Liberation force of not weak defend glorious Homeland for parangongs of blobbing-up US 'american' eternal nature of consumptionalisticalism and farming the weak and extorting the poor.  Tremblings of fears of them are shaking to depth of it.  The Chinese Citizenism throating of the threats is not of idle kind, make certain it is that and definitely the vigorous something and even more."

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:05 | Link to Comment New American Re...
New American Revolution's picture

That's great, love it. well said... funny, thanks.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:40 | Link to Comment laomei
laomei's picture

That's the language you get if you plug it into say, google translate while having no idea what you're looking at. Seeing as the article was written by a pair with no background in Chinese, you shouldn't be surprised.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:53 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Actually, it read much more lucidly than most of the product manuals for Chinese-made products that I have ever seen.

In fact, to be honest, I have struggled through so many translations from Chinese that read in such a florid, horribly convoluted, quasi-poetic and rather cryptic manner that I wonder if there is not some truly fundamental difference(s) in the thought process itself between Chinese and most Western (European) languages.  And that is not even taking into account the 'citizenism' ramblings of our dear friend AnAnonymous here.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:50 | Link to Comment Bro of the Sorr...
Bro of the Sorrowful Figure's picture

you are absolutely right in your assessment. there is indeed a fundametal difference in the way that the thought processes behind chinese and english work. ive lived in china for 2 years and studied the god awful language for 6. it took me 3 years to realize you have to completely drop your knowledge of how language works to learn chinese. even after all that time, my colleagues tell me that my chinese is good, but it sounds like im speaking english because of the way i express ideas. im still learning how to say simple things that ive been saying the english way for years. perfect example is today. my colleague asked me how to say ?? (jieji)in english. i had no idea what that meant until she wrote it down. it translates roughly as "pick someone up from the airport", but the first character can mean: receive/answer/meet/connect/join/catch, and the second can mean machine/engine/opportunity/airplane/pivot/organic. you get the idea. i would have said that in a complete sentence in chinese, whereas she expressed it in two words. it's a LOT of fun if you want to start studying now. should only take 8-10 years to be fluent.

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:52 | Link to Comment Bro of the Sorr...
Bro of the Sorrowful Figure's picture

ps i speak pretty damned good french and that only took two years of living in france. if you're lookng to learn a second language without constantly wanting to kill yourself stick to your own neighborhood.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 04:41 | Link to Comment lewy14
lewy14's picture

OK cool... when I write my Great American Sci Fi novel I'm going to put in a bit about administering precision electro-shocks to basically clear and reboot Broka's area - easiest way to learn Chinese is to forget English? Ok then, sounds like a plan...

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:35 | Link to Comment Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

I still shake my head when shopping for an auto part in Texas and the label says...

Hecho en China

WTF?

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 09:47 | Link to Comment SamAdams
SamAdams's picture

X2

The Red's agency quote almost sounds like an admission of guilt.  Do you remember the 3/11/11 tsunami that wiped out a portion of Japan?  China has been in bed with the Intl Bankers for a very long time.  Communist leaders, i.e. Trotsky & Mao, have been sponsored by said bankers.  Indeed, CFR sponsored think tanks say China's authoritarian society is the perfect model.  Our eyes observe the emigration of gold now that the USA has been bled dry and made weak.  Just something to consider when taking into account the big picture. 

Some key words for you:  Yale in China, The Red Symphony

Sun, 11/03/2013 - 14:15 | Link to Comment mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"Hecho en China

WTF?"

means you don't speak the national language. slacker.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 11:06 | Link to Comment laomei
laomei's picture

jieji as oppossed to songji.  It's really common for common phrases to be condensed to 2 characters for simplicity.  zhu fang dai kuan becomes fang dai.  Or why zhi da dian ti becomes zhi ti.  Being concise is rather valued in China.  It's also why Escalator/Elevator/Inclinator is just called dianti by basically everyone, it's used to change floors, so why get fussy about it?  This is the land of "chabuduo".  As long as the meaning is expressed and understood, that's all that matters.  It's also probably why most people kinda suck at specific terminology for things, albeit, 9 times out of 10, once you see it, it makes perfect fucking sense... usually to a point where you want to smack yourself for not realizing you could have probably just guessed it.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 12:18 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

laomei, thank you for your fascinating explanations in your comments here.

The explanation of the differences being based not on a different manner of thinking but on the cultural/historical/mythical roots of the idioms makes total sense.

Mon, 11/04/2013 - 01:09 | Link to Comment Bro of the Sorr...
Bro of the Sorrowful Figure's picture

right, and that's my biggest problem. i can often understand what someone means but recalling how to say things that have been shortened later on proves challenging. i get fussy because when you strive for so long to master something and there are endless hurdles at every level of learning, it can make even the most patient of people temperamental.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 09:32 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Yup, google-translate barely works with chinese documents ... seems to imply major differences in thought structure.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 10:53 | Link to Comment laomei
laomei's picture

Not really.  I am a native english speaker and have fluent Mandarin.  Google translate fails whenever it hits chengyu, or slang of any sort.  When they are talking about "assassins mace" this is what they are referring to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin's_Mace

In other words, it's an ace in the hole, a silver bullet, etc.  The entire point of having boomers is, so in a time of absolute crisis, you can strike back and strike back hard, as well as ending the nuclear blackmail which the US ever so loves to toss around.  It's more "implied" now, but when this unit was launched, it was bandied about like it was nothing.  It's a weapon, by which, China has the potential to strike a crippling blow against a superior foe.  If it was meant to be an English article, it would be something along the lines of

"This brave crew of patriots and heroes, drilling tirelessly to be nation's ever-ready trump card.  Prowling the deep and laying in wait to unleash the fires of hell while hoping that day never comes".

Furthermore you must see what a Chinese mace is compared to a western mace.  It's a sword breaker which can also be used on heavy armor.  Rulers would carry them as a sign of "justice" and defense.  You use it to break the sword of your attacker, leaving them at your mercy, you can also just whack them over the head with it.

So why Sha and not Sa? Sa is kind of useless for something as important as nukes.  It says it's a last-option-on-the-table, we'll stop you but show mercy, we'll only use it if we really have to.  That's weak, and for a boomer it makes no sense, as Sa would be out in the open.  Sha on the other hand, is stating concealment and that it is a very deadly weapon that can be used at will, although the underlying purpose IS defensive in nature, but it CAN be used offensively. 

So, boiling it all down, shashoujian is applicable to unconventional, asymmetric weapons of war.  Weapons which neutralize the superiority of the enemy and change the tide of war.  And in modern usage it's basically used the same as "trump card" for just about anything.

 

Back to the original comment though.  It's not "major differences in thought structure", it's references to idioms and stories that go back thousands of years, and that's something that google honestly really sucks at.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 11:23 | Link to Comment Chump
Chump's picture

Thanks for your comments here.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 12:02 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

Thank you for explaining that, reading Chinese documents is quite a verbal maze - and for explaining the mace tactic.

I hope those weapons are never used, by anyone, cheers.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:20 | Link to Comment thestarl
thestarl's picture

Would'nt get me on one of those tubs

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:50 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

America could flatten the Chinese fleet in days.  It's aimed at Japan, Obama won't make the play as Putin will shift a sh*load of his ships to assist China.  Sooner or later China will take the Islands.  Japan will do something stupid and fire on a Chinese ship = skirmish.

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 04:46 | Link to Comment johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

You mean the same Chinese fleet that popped a diesel electric sub up to the surface in the South China Sea several years ago a few thousand yards away from one of our aircraft carriers and wasn't detected until it surfaced? Only a fool understimates their enemy...

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 05:42 | Link to Comment y3maxx
y3maxx's picture

...Right down the line, America's Armed Forces have a 000 Batting Average record....with only one "Win" while on their lonesome...Grenada.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:16 | Link to Comment Bear
Bear's picture

Why would they want the irradiated waters of Cali when they can dive and frolic in the waters of Ohau

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:55 | Link to Comment Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Looks like a shot across the bow for America.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 09:27 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

 

 

"The bad news is the diesel electrics apparently have already demonstrated their SLBM capabilities"

Complete nonsense, they don't have anything like a diesel SLBM capability (and they certainly would not want it).

China has had nuclear-armed, nuclear-powered and fully operational blue water subs, armed with ballistic missiles, for decades.

How this can be considered a revelation I really don't know.

The Chinese have not revealed anything that's not been known about, for a very long time. The Chinese are making propaganda videos here, designed for the usual psychological effect, and threat-making ... and it worked.

 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 10:50 | Link to Comment SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

Are you sure they haven't been spotted? Remember this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/nov/9/smoke-plume-resembles-mis...

People who are in the know think it was a warning that the .gov tried to white wash.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:31 | Link to Comment Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Might need a Shower Party.

lol.

Over.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:44 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

I feel sorry for those poor bastards riding around in those nuclear antiques. 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:45 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I'm sure we probably gave them the technology so they would buy more of our debt for those lovely long lasting Chinese trinkets.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:43 | Link to Comment old naughty
old naughty's picture

Dr., actually it went all the way back to "the beginning"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen

 

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:48 | Link to Comment Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

Maybe it was those that just Blew up a Syrin Air force base Via a missile attack!

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 22:51 | Link to Comment Theos
Theos's picture

uhhhh.... ok?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:00 | Link to Comment gafgroocK
gafgroocK's picture

 

 

Hey! Maybe they can torpedo a Google Barge!?

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:01 | Link to Comment lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

What a load of crap. China's boomers are a joke. They don't even carry real nukes... since the leadership don't trust them.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:01 | Link to Comment CharmaChameleon
CharmaChameleon's picture

"Nuclear Submarine Fleet" is a far, far cry from "Nuclear Powered Submarine Fleet".

Duh.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:06 | Link to Comment YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

Those are really ancient subs that should have been decommissioned decades ago. Even newer designs have been "mothballed" (parked and abandoned) by the Russians and are currently leaking radiation all over Murmansk.

It's pretty clear the islands were taken by the Japanese during their last invasion and should have been given back at the end of WWII, so all that crap about China's aggressive challenges is a bit ironic.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:19 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

China has kick-ass missile systems but a very inexperienced navy v's Japan long history with navy warfare.  The concern is Japan militarizing like no tomorrow.  China has outdated junk.  I have no love for the commie crackpots in China, but at the same time I wouldn't f*ck with them.  China could strike Japanese navy bases from China/Nth Korea

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 07:26 | Link to Comment Evil Franklin
Evil Franklin's picture

They were decommisioned.  Then the Chinese bought them.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 12:10 | Link to Comment Element
Element's picture

It's about preventing China holding forward Island territories that could give China a monitoring capability that it currently does not have. Their engineers can flatten the mountains of those islands and build an airbase and deep port, with sensor and comms relays, with the ability to develop and operate a deep offshore hydrophone network clear of the noise of the Chinese littoral. Without oceanic Islands they'll not get that, which puts them at a major knowledge disadvantage, even close to China.

Wed, 10/30/2013 - 23:37 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

And who said the Chinese no longer sail junks?

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:35 | Link to Comment IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

Makes one wonder where the mighty Chinese sailorizm sailors deposit their nightsoil, since it's clear that the toilet hasn't really caught on in China? Do they just shit right on the deck? (Poopdeck?) Shit in the torpedo tubes? (My guess) Crap in the airlock?

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:37 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

The citizenism disgrace that stank 1000 ships.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:11 | Link to Comment Chewybunny
Chewybunny's picture

Faaaake! Everyone knows you can't see further than 3 feet due to the pollution, in that country.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:13 | Link to Comment Bear
Bear's picture

China with nukes has always 'made me tremble'

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:15 | Link to Comment Hongcha
Hongcha's picture

Fine by me.

Scramble scramble, mayday mayday.  

Woot woot woot.

buy some gold you yellow sons of bitches.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:19 | Link to Comment Bull Bear Nice Pair
Bull Bear Nice Pair's picture

"...They don't even carry real nukes... since the leadership don't trust them."

Sounds idiotic. The real reason was that China's 1st gen. SLBM, JL-1, had a range of only 3,000 kms. So they trained with dummies. There was no real strategic patrol to speak of for China's 1st gen. nuclear subs. However, time has changed. China's 2nd gen. SLBM, JL-2, has a range of 10, 000 kms. So Chinese SLBM now can reach the U.S. even when the subs stay close to shore, under the cover of their AF and Naval AF.  

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:21 | Link to Comment Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Imagine what the U.S. will declasify in 2020.

We probably have Battlestar Galactica Class ships in orbit right now cloaked.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:30 | Link to Comment laomei
laomei's picture

Things being ignored for the sake of propaganda I guess:

This article is more about the 42 years the subs have been in service, the accomplishments, and a big chunk focusing on safe decommissioning tech which has been developed.  Xia is near end of life as it is, so it's time to reveal more about it, as it is no longer a big deal.

 

As far as nukes go, you bet your ass they have live nukes.  Not even bothering to mention the massive defence complex in the mountains, which is also, full of road-mobile nukes.  To the war nerds out there, war with China only ends with lots of nukes flying.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:27 | Link to Comment W74
W74's picture

I would like to point out that in the early 2000s China moved a lot of stuff underground (well, a lot more of their stuff) when their operatives in Afghanistan (which does border China) realized that American bunker busters couldn't really do jack shit against mountainsides.

Of course if you look at the geographies of the US and China, they're incredibly similar. The only thing China doesn't have is that second Ocean.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:38 | Link to Comment franciscopendergrass
franciscopendergrass's picture

Did I see one of those in a movie?  

In the Chinese version of the Hunt for the Red October, who is gonna play Sean Connery's role?  Jackie Chan?

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:41 | Link to Comment ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Yeah, the Chinese are kind industrious people who only want to make Happy Meal toys and bow.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:54 | Link to Comment Muppet
Muppet's picture

All along the bottom of the hull in huge letters are the words "Made in China".   

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 00:57 | Link to Comment PT
PT's picture

But did you see Japan's "nuclear" "sub-marine" "facilities"?  I hear they're "out of control".

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:10 | Link to Comment Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

I wonder when they'll reach the 'million served' mark? American WWII production cubed. Or maybe cubed cubed. They have FATH air pollution for a reason.

 

Stack On

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:22 | Link to Comment W74
W74's picture

You didn't design that fleet.  Somebody else made it happen.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:51 | Link to Comment yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

I'm losing faith.  I need you guys here at ZH to tell me again why communism doesn't work.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:10 | Link to Comment Bearwagon
Bearwagon's picture

Really? Okay, in that case: You eventually run out of (other peoples) money. That's all.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:03 | Link to Comment PT
PT's picture

Capitalism:  Build empty houses that no-one can afford to buy.
Communism:  Those empty houses are stacked up neatly into empty cities.

(Yes, yes, I know.  Just lighten up for a minute and run with it.) 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 01:56 | Link to Comment The Iconoclast
The Iconoclast's picture

It looks a little like a remake of Das Boot, only with more ICBM.

The leak drill was pure feel-good theater for the submariners.  I'm surprised they included it on their reel.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 02:29 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

Yes. My childhood beliefs that grown ups knew what they were doing, when they had us kids practice Duck and Cover, have been vindicated.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 03:10 | Link to Comment Joe A
Joe A's picture

My guess is that the sequence of 1:43 to 1:50 they will be doing a lot on those cans.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 03:40 | Link to Comment orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

Barry paying off debt by marking up and selling old inventory.

 

Same old story.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 04:37 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Yes because there is no finer way to waste that stolen wealth than to build machines that can kill everyone on the planet no matter if they were involved or not....

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:08 | Link to Comment shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Supreme Double Happiness to spanking bottom Japanese hopping island.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:20 | Link to Comment Byte Me
Byte Me's picture

So they're 'showing' this just prior to retiring this particular fleet?

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 06:49 | Link to Comment 22winmag
22winmag's picture

Crappy hardware like this is best viewed from a glass-bottomed boat.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 07:12 | Link to Comment Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

One of those subs in the Gulf of Mexico could fire three nukes and dentonate them above the U.S, and it would be light out.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 07:53 | Link to Comment ZH Snob
ZH Snob's picture

both russia and the US have far superior subs.  this is indeed a strange maneuver, one might even say frightening

 

if we stop and think why on earth would china be so willing to show off their 3rd rate submarines the only rational reason might be that war is so close they want to offer a subtle reminder to an adversary they are not to be trifled with.  even an inferior nuclear submarine, well placed, is a powerful weapon.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:10 | Link to Comment New American Re...
New American Revolution's picture

They make shitty steel, too much copper when any is way too much. 

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:11 | Link to Comment DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

Ya gotta love the Asian penchant for hyperbole ("gallop to the depths of the ocean, serving as mysterious forces igniting the sound of thunder in the deep sea", and be an "assassin’s mace that would make adversaries tremble").

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 08:38 | Link to Comment gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

"...igniting the sound of thunder in the deep sea."  I thought submarines were suppose to be quiet.

Thu, 10/31/2013 - 10:12 | Link to Comment Winston Smith 2009
Winston Smith 2009's picture

They've got a long, long way to go before they waste as much money on military hardware that's never used and then scrapped as we do.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:07 | Link to Comment PT
PT's picture

True, but their workers are cheaper.  How does that fit into the equation?

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