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Are Conspiracy Theories The Biggest Threat To Democracy?

Tyler Durden's picture





 

What is the common element between Liborgate, the Fed manipulating capital markets, China hoarding gold, and the recent ubiquotous NSA spying revelations? At one point, before they became fact, they were all "conspiracy theories" as were the Freemasons, the Illuminati, McCarthy's witch hunts, 9/11, and so many more. The same theories, which - don't laugh - are now part of a Cambridge University study titled Conspiracy and Democracy,  which looks at the prevalence of conspiracy theories and what they tell us about trust in democratic societies, about the differences between cultures and societies, and why conspiracy theories (ostensibly before they become fact) appear at particular moments in history. But, at its core, whether conspiracy theories will, as the BBC summarizes, it, eventually destroy democracy.

Because, supposedly, it is not the corruption at the top echelons of government, the ultimate usurpation of power by assorted globalist money groups "never letting a crisis go to waste", that plunder wealth from what is left of the middle class and hands it over, via latent inflation, asset bubbles and capital appreciation to the 1% peak of society's wealth pyramid (in the US), or kleptofascist, unelected bureaucratic groups seeking the "greater good" despite the complete tear of the social fabric (in Europe) that is a threat to democracy.

No - you see it is evil conspiracy theories and the theorists that spin them that are the biggest threat to the "democratic" way of life.

The BBC has more on this amusing, if potentially troubling, avenue:

"The reason we have conspiracy theories is that sometimes governments and organisations do conspire," says Observer columnist and academic John Naughton. It would be wrong to write off all conspiracy theorists as "swivel-eyed loons," with "poor personal hygiene and halitosis," he told a Cambridge University Festival of Ideas debate. They are not all "crazy". The difficult part, for those of us trying to make sense of a complex world, is working out which parts of the conspiracy theory to keep and which to throw away.

 

Mr Naughton is one of three lead investigators in a major new Cambridge University project to investigate the impact of conspiracy theories on democracy.

 

The internet is generally assumed to be the main driving force behind the growth in conspiracy theories but, says Mr Naughton, there has been little research into whether that is really the case. He plans to compare internet theories on 9/11 with pre-internet theories about John F Kennedy's assassination.

 

Like the other researchers, he is wary, or perhaps that should be weary, of delving into the darker recesses of the conspiracy world.

 

"The minute you get into the JFK stuff, and the minute you sniff at the 9/11 stuff, you begin to lose the will to live," he told the audience in Cambridge.

 

Like Sir Richard Evans, who heads the five-year Conspiracy and Democracy project, he is at pains to stress that the aim is not to prove or disprove particular theories, simply to study their impact on culture and society.

Impact on culture and society... and then judge: because if heaven forbid the fabled institution of higher learning that is Cambridge - the progenitor of many a statist thinkers - finds that conspiracy theories are a danger to fine, upstanding, democratic society... then what?

Why are we so fascinated by them? Are they undermining trust in democratic institutions?

No, but a far better question is do conspiracy "theories", at least until confirmed, simply provide the beholder with a far more skeptical view of a world than the one spoon fed by a complicit media, whose sole purpose is to perpetuate and multiply - hence enrich - the advertising dollars of the status quo? And is the long overdue questioning of everything that emanates from institutions of power a bad thing, or were people simply too lazy to think for themselves and let the government do it, at least until said "cognitive outsourcing" led to the second great depression of 2008?

David Runciman, professor of politics at Cambridge University, the third principal investigator, is keen to explode the idea that most conspiracies are actually "cock-ups".

 

"The line between cock-up, conspiracy and conspiracy theory are much more blurred than the conventional view that you have got to choose between them," he told the Festival of Ideas.

 

"There's a conventional view that you get these conspirators, who are these kind of sinister, malign people who know what they are doing, and the conspiracy theorists, who occasionally stumble upon the truth but who are on the whole paranoid and crazy. "Actually the conspirators are often the paranoid and crazy conspiracy theorists, because in their attempt to cover up the cock-up they get drawn into a web in which their self-justification posits some giant conspiracy trying to expose their conspiracy.

"And I think that's consistently true through a lot of political scandals, Watergate included."

Such a "complex" and profoundly introspective theory - truly something only a Cambridge professor could come up with.

[Runciman] is also examining whether the push for greater openness and transparency in public life will fuel, rather than kill off, conspiracy theories.

 

"It may be that one of the things conspiracy theories feed on as well as silence, is a surfeit of information. And when there is a mass of information out there, it becomes easier for people to find their way through to come to the conclusion they want to come to.

 

"Plus, you don't have to be an especial cynic to believe that, in the age of open government, governments will be even more careful to keep secret the things they want to keep secret. "The demand for openness always produces, as well as more openness, more secrecy."

You mean... like the NSA spying on everyone to be abreast of just what everyone knows?

Or does that mean that the Fed's faux transparency affair is nothing but a red herring designed to redirect attention from the Fed's true intentions somewhere else?

Unpossible.

That said, having been accused of a conspiratorial bent on a few occasions, we kinda, sorta see where this is going, and will go so far as to venture that in a few years, the Cambridge study's conclusions (which certainly will cast all paranoid and crazy conspirators in a culpable light and worth of "social isolation"), will be escalated to enforce that anyone found of harboring "conspiratorial" thoughts will be bound and shackled in whatever WIFI-free dungeon the local host Big Brother government has created precisely for this ulterior subclass of humans.

But for now - conspire away... and upon exposing the deep lies beneath the surface of "democracy" - since the mainstream media simply refuses to be painted in the same paranoid and crazy brush - remember to promptly depart for the "evil undemocratic empire" that is Russia...

 


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Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:35 | Link to Comment Duc888
Duc888's picture

No. Our government is the biggest threat to "democracy".

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:42 | Link to Comment FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

democracy is not desirable in the first place. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on dinner. It is somebody else or the collective deciding what is 'good' for me. If something is good for me I will do it of my own accord.

I am an anarcho-capitalist. I am against the state. No state is legitimate. The state is nothing but an organized system of theft and violence. In a voluntaryist society there would be voluntary governance with direct accountability as opposed to 'delegation', and other natural institutions such as the family, and just the respect of private property and personal  liberty to keep order,  as opposed to artificial constructs of fiat of the state. 

 

 

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:49 | Link to Comment dryam
dryam's picture

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:09 | Link to Comment El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

Is it true that our president is an illegal alien. Is that true?

If it is, then obviously we're all screwed.

Conspiracy: fact or fiction.

FACT!

 

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:20 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

Obama said he was born in Kenya, but I don't believe him ... because he is a liar.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:22 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

I like that your link couldn't have been anything of a reputible nature. Moron.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:54 | Link to Comment Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

What do you expect? He's from the future. No source is reputable in the future.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:57 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

Don't feed the trolls.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:03 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

But, I'm hungry.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:45 | Link to Comment Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Fascinating stuff. The word TRUTh shows up only once in the whole piece and the word LIES does not even make an appearance.

So what are we really trying to get to?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:05 | Link to Comment putaipan
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bring on the new libtard gatekeeping ebay funded greenwald/chompski wiki-wiki !!!!!

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:42 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

Crud..

It all boils down to where your education, experience, indoctrination and/or faith lies.

There are lots of arguments that paint decent folks as evil doers and evil doers as decent folks.

I do not have personal experience seeing cyanide gassing and mass burials at Auschwitz, the lunar landing, the Tonkin Gulf incident or the purported demolition wiring of the WTC or WTC 7, but my education, intuition and faith leads me to certain dispositions.

It keeps me faithful, but skeptical.

Follow your bliss and information-based intuition, but remain skeptical of the fringes..

Oh, one thing I know for certain,,

The monetary system that was forced upon us is a scam.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 03:04 | Link to Comment UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Facepalm to Glory in the aftermath of LAX....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYE20A7K9w0#t=215

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 06:17 | Link to Comment negative rates
negative rates's picture

It was the inefficiency of the democratic system itself, which bankrupt the democracy.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 06:53 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

 

...but I don't believe him ... because he is a liar.

 

I know......damn that guy can lie. He does it everyday without fail.

 

I stand in awe of him really.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 07:25 | Link to Comment johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

wasnt obamacare once just a conspiracy theory?

and he isnt coming for your guns either

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:30 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

I think you're on to something here.

Going Forward! I'm going to consider ObamaCare just one big ass conspiracy theory. Because clearly, no sane government would compel a person by law to buy a flat screen TV or force them to subsidize their neighbor in buying one.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:08 | Link to Comment BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

I think you are onto something here nmewn... the operative word in you missive is 'sane'...

One might muse that it isn't conspiracy at all but simply the output of an insane leadership within the government.  The political and oligarch classes are plagued by psychopathy.  

Or, as the Fun Boy Three once sang, The Lunatics Have Taken Over the Asylum.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:16 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

The operative word is sane ;-)

As an aside, I've forgotten my damned password on the email account we have used in the past. So, if you have tried to contact me there, thats why I haven't responded. I keep that crap in my head instead of written down, for obvious reasons...maybe I'm getting dementia...lol.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:21 | Link to Comment BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

I'd hate to lose touch my friend.  You know you can contact me at my username @ gmail.

Holla when you get set up again.  

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:25 | Link to Comment Stackers
Stackers's picture

Conspiracy Facts are much more dangerous

 

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries." David Rockefeller [June, 1991]

"For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure -- one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." -David Rockefeller, from his own book, Memoirs.

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent." Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

"This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long... We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis, and the nations will accept the New World Order." - David Rockefeller speaking at the United Nations Ambassadors' dinner. [Sept. 23, 1994]

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:47 | Link to Comment Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

Democracy, as in the rule of the people, has never existed and will not exist until the Unlimited State of America and its counterparts around the world are history.

Fortunately, that day is not far off and will begin later in this decade, led by the departure of one or another US state (my guess beingTexas):

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-transition-free-society

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:25 | Link to Comment Milestones
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Very interesting and informative posting. Thak you much for submitting it.               Milestones

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:30 | Link to Comment Milestones
Milestones's picture

Very interesting and informative posting. Thak you much for submitting it.               Milestones

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:28 | Link to Comment malikai
malikai's picture

I hope you don't mind, but I just phoned your city council. We all agreed that drinks are on you. Forever.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:21 | Link to Comment therevolutionwas
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I'll go with the not sane gov't.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:35 | Link to Comment Race Car Driver
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> and he isnt coming for your guns either

Nope ... just the ammo.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:18 | Link to Comment therevolutionwas
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The MSM is not calling him on it.  If calling out his lies appear in their script, they will call him a liar. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 15:23 | Link to Comment thestarl
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And how there could be only one tiny bit of grainy cctv footage of the Pentagon strike available as well as the supposed airliner hitting the mostly vacant side of the building which even for a top gun pilot would have been some feat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 02:13 | Link to Comment fonestar
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Mr. Naughton writes...."The minute you get into the JFK stuff, and the minute you sniff at the 9/11 stuff, you begin to lose the will to live,"

 

No.  Mr. Naughton, we have instead reached into the recesses of our souls to find an unmovable conviction and a passion for truth, liberty and justice for all.  Mr. Naughton far from losing the will to live, we have found something greater than ourselves.  Something we are willing to trade our lives for.  Mr. Naughton, we have found the will to fight and to live as free men.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:14 | Link to Comment therevolutionwas
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Perhaps it was a warning; if you look too deeply you may lose your life......?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 14:31 | Link to Comment StandardDeviant
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I doubt it.  It's a common British expression, typically used when forced to deal with something you find intolerably inane or tiresome.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 16:27 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

Guys like Naughton spend their entire careers... lives, even... picking up the balls the status quo hands them, and running with them.

The idea the balls might be unreliable red herrings utterly terrifies them.

Mainstream economists are typical in this regard. They'll cheerfully go on and on about GDP and talk about inflation and unemplyment and whether there's a recession... suggest to them that GDP, CPI, and unemployment statixstics are rigged and a look of pure panic sweeps across their features.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:10 | Link to Comment jimmytorpedo
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Hey Bunz, if you're hungry try consuming a dictionary.

It's more filling than down votes.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:08 | Link to Comment Svendblaaskaeg
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"Don't feed the trolls"

Trolls dont care, trolls on food stamps

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:47 | Link to Comment Wahooo
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We don't need a book to figure out that obama is not an American.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:52 | Link to Comment IndyPat
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When All Fear Me, then THEY will know it is I, Lord Gothar! And that they don't know shit about fear! Imma bring it! Salah!

Better run bitchez. Or sue me.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 02:07 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

                Ozymandias

I met a traveller from an antique land

Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone

Stand in the desart. Near them, on the sand,

Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,

And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:

And on the pedestal these words appear:

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare

The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 02:11 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

When capital conglomerates, its first purchase is government.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:19 | Link to Comment orez65
orez65's picture

"When capital conglomerates, its first purchase is government."

NO, NO, NO!

"When CROOKS conglomerate ..."

Real CAPITAL is simply SAVINGS.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 19:28 | Link to Comment andyupnorth
andyupnorth's picture

Fantastic!! +1,000,000!!!

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 03:26 | Link to Comment Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

Has everyone forgotten that the US government was founded on a conspiracy theory? From the Declaration of Independence

 

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:13 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
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.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:13 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

The government DOES fear the people. It fears the people will find out the truth. That's why it spends a HUGE amount of resources to keep the people from finding out the truth.

The truth may set us free, but in Cheney's (and his ilk's) case, the opposite might happen.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:49 | Link to Comment 90's Child
90's Child's picture

Democracy is just a word when the people are straving.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:37 | Link to Comment The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

"Democracy" IS a "conspiracy theory".

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:59 | Link to Comment Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

A sure fire way of knowing it is a good conspiracy which has merits is there is a movie whipped up very quickly right after, to kinda factualize the conspiracy questions

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:19 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

DISinformation is an important tool in the keeping of a conspiracy secret. TPTB are still spending money on JFK disinformation.

Those that own history control the future.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:33 | Link to Comment mick_richfield
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I wonder how far back that history-owning stuff might go?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 15:20 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
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A very long way. The Church zealously guarded the "history" they created. Heresy got you executed by the most feared methods. Lots of wars were fought and lots of people killed to maintain acceptance and belief of their "history".

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 18:12 | Link to Comment Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Russian historian and chronologist Anatoly Fomenko says we don't have any original documents older than about 1000 years old.  Everything else (that is claimed to be of an older origin) is a 'copy' that was made in the 1300s or later.  Most of the falsifying happened in the late 17th century.

Any way, at the heart of his theories is the idea that the 'Mongols' were actually Turkic/Slavic, not from Mongolia, per se.  The Horde was able to lay siege to cities, and conquer armies, but holding territory was difficult, as the army (and its horses) always had to be on the move.  So mainly they demanded tribute.   The Black Plague occurred after a basically East to West Empire-wide trade network was set up, before this it wasn't possible to safely transport goods (every border you cross means paying duties, and/or being subject to pirates). 

So basically, his idea is that Turkey (the Ottomans) and Russia (the Kievan Rus, Golden Horde, Volga kingdoms etc) were friends, 500+ years ago, and only became enemies afterwards.   He goes on to posit that the Reformation was a political reform, or revolution, with the different European nations striving for their independence...

You can see how it would not benefit any European royalty to have this version of history circulate, back in the day.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:40 | Link to Comment UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Yeah, even when they're starving.

Spall Czech works four me....

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:47 | Link to Comment Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Democracy was invented by the Greeks so they could all talk at the same time.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 04:10 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

correction.. "so they could all YELL at the same time"..

try marrying one.  :-)

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:53 | Link to Comment Caviar Emptor
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There would be gangs instead of government, levying taxes for your protection and taking a giant cut of your income as tribute. The greatest fear would be pissing off your local foot soldier or captain, or having a rival gang take over and call you a rat.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:12 | Link to Comment FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

The absence of a state does not guarantee bliss. Mankind is inherently sinful and full of lust, greed, and desire for power. Indeed there needs to be reverence for liberty and private property. With even a 'limited' government, though, the apparatus for subjugation is in place, whereas in anarcho-capitalism, there are a hell of a lot of obstacles standing in the way of a rogue agency garnering the necessary control. Competition always is best. There are always going to be small fires, and in the economic system some panics and whatnot, but only does it become colossal and engulfing so many people when the state has intervened, a la in dictating interest rates via the Fed. 

 

Indeed there would be a market for protection, and private defense agencies would develop and offer their services as an insurance-like system. 

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:26 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

How can you say these words, and not understand what the fuck you are saying. It's the creation of a new, worse government.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 02:18 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

In this pond you are a strange fish, indeed. You been swimming in Kool-Aid?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:24 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
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Perhaps he has ventured beyond this small pond, and seen what the Orifices of Anarchism's designs look like when they are actually implemented.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:58 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Anarchism implemented? Prithee, where?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 14:22 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Using a strict definition- Somalia, but if you want to get into the voluntary association of free men and the abolition of the central state- there are examples from the middle east to central Asia that most anarchists would be uncomfortable with. Unfortunately, since, in the dialect of the central state- "shifting tribal allegiances and alliances" are indicative of "terrorism" the discussion tends to get hijacked rather easily...

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:01 | Link to Comment noless
noless's picture

Edifice?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:22 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

No, I actually meant orifice (exactly which orifice is more deliberately ambiguous). Although I do have significantly more respect for the Orifices of Anarchism and their religion than I do for the Orifice of Omaha and his.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:22 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

He's just another newbie that has been created to provide us with more of TPTB's disinformation. It sucks that we have to pay for this shit.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:04 | Link to Comment therevolutionwas
therevolutionwas's picture

No offense, but you sound like a little kid afraid of the dark.

 

Edit:      We need to find a new habitable planet to try this on.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:26 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

Exactly. As soon as any one of the police companies to which you might have subscrbied have even the appearance of corruption, you could take your money elsewhere (or start your own competeing company). Businesses that lose their reputation would thus not be able to take over the world as alarmists imagine - unless they could print their own money - but in a free market, money is a product just like police services are a product, which anyone is free to provide to voluntary customers.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:25 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Without a state, it would be legal, profitable, and obvious that one should become part of an organized system of theft and violence, kill you and your family, and take your belongings, thus forming a richer organization that could support its own growth...Gosh, this sounds like a government(state is you want to call it that). 

HOLY SHIT, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS ANARCHO-CAPITALISM EXCEPT IN THE SHORT TERM. grow up.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:30 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

Would it really be in your best interests to prove to the world that you cannot be trusted - ever? It seems like you haven't thought this through ...

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:38 | Link to Comment FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

It's astonishing that people have this antagonistic reaction to the notion that everything should be done on a voluntary basis. I am a Christian and will not touch alcohol or mind altering drugs, but I do not believe in using force against someone to tell them how to live. And obviously the disastrous and police-state conducive drug war's results speak for themselves, same with Prohibition. 

Liberty is a blessing, but I do not worship it. My hope is in the Lord Jesus Christ. All that matters is eternity. Believe on Him and you are saved. It is a free gift. Faith alone saves. Everyone is a sinner and deserves eternal damnation, but God gave us a way to be re-united with Him by giving His only Son to die for us. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:08 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

Just be sure not to fall for the various rapture theories designed to make Christians individually and voluntarily decide to stand down by concluding there is no point in fighting tyranny if the world is ending in our lifetime anyway.

I submit that if a Christian man were to do anything less than fight with all is ability to fix what is happening to the people, then he will be very sad when Jesus says to him in the end, "I do not know thee."

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:16 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Why is it that most everything you say has a link to your blog? WEIRD/!@#

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:30 | Link to Comment Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

bunz - member for just over 4 weeks.  

Welcome, troll.  

We've had better.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 07:33 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

Barkeep....give me a warm gin......hold the spaz.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:35 | Link to Comment FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

I'm an independent fundamental Baptist, and indeed think that many will be deceived just as they are by the zionist agenda that has infiltrated so many churches.

I am on the side of life. Because I am saved I will not take the mark of the beast, and I with God's provision will do what I can to survive, from gold and guns to food. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:46 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

Still too passive.

If you really believed, you would do more.

You will know a tree by its fruit.

I may be an atheist, but I am a fan of Jesus. He helped inspire my ethics, and he would not respect a man who did not fight to free others who wanted to be free, and to educate others who did not.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:07 | Link to Comment FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

God's will will be done. He is sovereign. I only fear Him. 

Things are going to keep going to hell in a handbasket, and we are here living in this world, but are not to be of it. I do not back down on my convictions and I do speak truth to  power in these increasingly PC environs.

 

I repeat though, salvation is all that matters. Believe on the Lord and you are saved. And you cannot lose that salvation. One cannot earn his way into Heaven. Believing that works must be done is totally antithetical to Christianity, as are the damnable doctrines of the Catholic church such as the unbiblical concepts of purgatory and marianic worship. 

We are all born sinners and we all sin throughout our lives. We deserve hell, as God says the wages of sin is death. But in His love he gave us a way to be reunited with Him forever, by giving Himself at the cross to pay the price for our sins as only He in his sinlessness could. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:33 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

"Believe on the Lord and you are saved."

You can obfuscate all you want, but if you really believed, you would do more - not to be saved, but as the unavoidable result of believing. You will know a tree by its fruit.

"salvation is all that matters"

Hmm ... Imagine a man in heaven, and everyone knows that he hid in his hole with his gold waiting for the end because "salvation is all that matters" to him. Meanwhile atheists, who believed their death really was the end, had more courage ... How awful to be pitied by everyone in heaven for the sickness in one's soul. That seems more like hell.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:40 | Link to Comment FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Indeed the Bible says you shall know them by their fruits, but salvation itself is exclusively based on belief on the Lord. It is a free gift, and gifts do not cost a thing. God has a purpose for us on this earth, and right now in my life I am looking to Him for guidance in what career I will be going into and how I can spread the Gospel. 

I was agreeing with you regarding how people should not say 'well I wouldn't want to be alive then anyway,' because God is always on the side of life. Having guns, gold, food, etc. is a prudent thing to do, and I thank God I am awake and for giving me a propensity to save and an awareness of the perils of debt. I do tell my family and friends about this stuff, but there is still some marginalization no doubt, regarding these conspiracies that the MSM writes off, etc. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:24 | Link to Comment Abaco
Abaco's picture

Sounds like you don't know your bible or how it came to be.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:35 | Link to Comment jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

FreeMktFisher,

I support your right to believe what you wish BUT,

Anarcho-Capitalists assert that no one has the right to rule you.

ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: via medieval Latin from Greek anarkhia, fromanarkhos, from an- ‘without’ arkhos ‘chief, ruler.’

Yet you willingly submit to an invisible ruler.

I personally find it contradictory to be an anarchist without being an atheist as well. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:27 | Link to Comment Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

"I may be an atheist, but I am a fan of Jesus. He helped inspire my ethics"

Just what i always wanted to say but was too stupid to explain in a short sentence

Thank You!

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 06:52 | Link to Comment Obadiah
Obadiah's picture

Hey Jim i like your thinking, soo many will be decieved.  At the same time  I see many many others beginning to seek, discover and speak the real Truth.

Do you happen to listen to arnold murry's Bible Studies?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:40 | Link to Comment Sparkey
Sparkey's picture

Jesus Jim, the Rapture is the best thing ever, it give a believer something to focus on, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The following gives us an insight into the mind of this `Believer`, I copied this from an English site during the last `White Phosphorous` event.

People can and do believe anything, our actions are motivated by our beliefs, yet belief it's self is no guarantor of truth!

 

An American Christian point of view http://uk.messages.news.yahoo.com/Politics/threadview?m=tm&bn=UKN-PL-Gaza&tof=1&rt=1&frt=1&dir=b&ri=26101&t=c6-Jun-10 01:16 AM

"As an American Christian I know more about right and wrong and God's true will than most people do, my Pastor has been anointed unto the Lord to bring the truth to his congregation and he has made several trips to Israel for instructions and education. Pastor says; As the chosen people the Jews of Israel manifest the will of God, if old people and babies are dying in Gaza because of Israel's actions it is because God wants them to die, who are we to question the will of God? Pastor has instructed his flock to support Israel in every way possible, and to send, through him, all the money we can, I have placed my family on a diet of two modest meals a day to free up cash for the cause, I strongly suggest that you do the same, (my wife and the older children are sullen but silent, as the Bible instructs, they have learned to fear the “Rod of Righteousness” which is never far from my hand, the baby cried a lot in the beginning, but is quieter now, I wonder if God will rapture the baby first?) What a blessing if he did, then we would know that she was evermore “safe in the arms of Jesus”as I expect we all eventually will be!), it is difficult of course, watching the baby’s eyes glaze over and listening to her mother’s soft whimpers, but really,What is a man to do? I may never again have such a chance to elevate myself in the eyes of God. God's plan for the rapture has been revealed to the real Christians of America, in the rapture the real Christians will be taken directly to heaven, Pastor has deemed me Rapture ready, as long as I keep up my payments, some times I feel sorry for the ones who will be left behind, but, I realize, just as everyone can't be an American everyone can't go to Heaven either. Life really isn't fair is it?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 16:34 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

Lulz

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:11 | Link to Comment scrappy
scrappy's picture

Thanks Brother.  ;-)

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:51 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

No, it wouldn't be in your best interest. But gangs of violent, greedy people don't think about what is in their long-term best interest. Obviously not everyone would join a gang and do horrible things. But some would. And then they would have the power that you seem to want to take away. What I am saying is that taking power away from one group only results in it's transition to another. Where does it end? Do you really think your ideal would result in a better place for people to live?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:20 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

I will repeat my earlier comment - only because this is bunz first non-troll comment. That deserves positive reinforcement.

As soon as any one of the police companies to which you might have subscribed have even the appearance of corruption, you could take your money elsewhere (or start your own competeing company). Businesses that lose their reputation would thus not be able to take over the world as alarmists imagine - unless they could print their own money - but in a free market, money is a product just like police services are a product, which anyone is free to provide to voluntary customers.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:21 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

But you are still ONE person taking your vote away from a "police company" that has engrained itself in many peoples lives. At some point, a carefully crafted company could gain so much trust it cannot be brought down no matter what, save by another "police company". Thus you have created battling governments. I'm not sure how this is different than what we currently have.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:56 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

You answered your own question. The companies are not the only parties, there is also us, not only do we have power as individuals, militias, etc. but the companies are empowered by our money because they can't print their own, and we can all withdraw our support overnight, no matter how many decades we may have trusted them before, in which case, no one would loan them money either.

Both these companies and governments would let people elect their leaders in order to maintain credibility, but unlike the companies, you cannot withdraw your support from government. It is a monopoly within a geographic region.

If the people became so complacent that they let one company become more powerful than all the people and all the other companies combined - well - that would take hundreds of years wouldn't it? That still would be better than today because they would have their history to teach them how well the free-market once worked, so it would probably never get that way and if it did, they would have a clear path back to a healthy place.

The super company would have to also erase that healthy history, so that useful serfs would defend the super company on the Internet ...

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

My biggest problem with anarcho-capitalism is that I think it can only ever be a transitory state between one form of thievery and another, say between a government finally collapsing under its own weight and various robber bands and warlords fighting it out and establishing a new state. It seems to me the whole Platonic idea of Kyklos is probably closest to what actually happens to human societies.

An anarcho-capitalist society is just no match, militarily, for an aggressive centralised state that slowly gobbles up other polities... until it finally collapses. And if an anarcho-capiltalist society did have a powerful military it would eventually be hijacked by sociopaths and then used to enforce statism...as we see here in the US.

I wish it weren't so, but it is impossible to live in a polity that doesn't reflect the sensibilities of the majority of the people in that polity. And our polities just love them some 'democracy'!

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:25 | Link to Comment Blotsky
Blotsky's picture

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

 

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 11:41 | Link to Comment scrappy
scrappy's picture

We could try this folks...

It matches our needs in this time ecologically and economically.

http://www.henrygeorge.org/isms.htm

https://libertyrevival.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/false-leftright-paradigm...

“Wherever, in any country, there are idle lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right.” — Thomas Jefferson

“For as labor cannot produce without the use of land, the denial of the equal right to use of land is necessarily the denial of the right of labor to its own produce.” — Henry George

“In my opinion, the least bad tax is the property tax on the unimproved value of land, the Henry George argument…” — Milton Friedman

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:54 | Link to Comment Future Jim
Future Jim's picture

True, no one created the land.

I think that Jefferson quote is fake, as are many Jefferson quotes. I couldn't find it in Monticello.org.

Who decides who gets to use the land if no one owns it?

Who decides what the land is worth if no one can buy or sell it?

Why do you think the government owning land is the same as the people owning it?

People already don't pay tax on food or on a subsistence wage.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 11:32 | Link to Comment cirrus
cirrus's picture

When the people of a nation become more concerned with cheering for their own team instead of trust and truth....trust and truth no longer matter. Every President has probably lied to the public. I think this President has proven to be a compulsive liar. Yet...the people don't care about that and trust and believe him anyhow. The people that especially believe him no matter what are minorities and the entitlement class. These are the very people his policies have hurt the most as the elite rich get richer and there is more dependency and less jobs. I'm convinced that this President could be caught on film selling crack to elementary school students and certain groups of 'voters' wouldn't even care. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:46 | Link to Comment franciscopendergrass
franciscopendergrass's picture

Without government, who is gonna commit mass murder in the 6 and 7-digit scale (8-digit scale if you include all the governments throughout history)?  I'm so sure corporations are so capable of doing that.  Without government, who is gonna redistribute wealth with the threat of going to prison?  http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 02:15 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Shine the searchlight (he'll save us yet!)

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:52 | Link to Comment Umh
Umh's picture

The state is an organized system of theft and violence.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:03 | Link to Comment Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

Democracy is just another word for "gimmi half your shit"

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 11:36 | Link to Comment TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

So we break down society to the point of no state and it's all just individualism.  Who gets the nuke/bio/chem weapons?  I'm sorry but the genie is out of the lamp and there is no going back or forward to your position.  No matter how ideal, your dream is simply a completely unrealistic dream that will never happen unless most of humanity dies first. 

The state is the minimum solution at this point and time in the evolution of the human race.  If you look at the arc (Or is it only a ramp if looked at from a broader point of view?) of human history there are a couple of trends.  One we recognize is technology becomes more sophisticated and widespread.  Another is consolidation.  The family > tribe > town, city, local area (county/district/prefect/parish size), kingdom, country, empire, bloc...  The units keep getting bigger in line with the reach of technology that enables consolidation to happen.  It may seem that continental groups may be the next evolution.  Maybe the EU implodes but just because the first try fails doesn't mean it won't happen again and that it will never succeed.  Just a couple of hundred years ago there were many Germanies, many German princes.  Today a unified Germany is the hub of a unified Europe.  Barring some sort of calamity such as us destroying ourselves with our technology then the consolidation will eventually become global.  The march of time will not stop.

It may not fit with our conception of what is ideal but it will happen.  Maybe not this decade.  Perhaps not this century.  But it will happen.  We need to stop clawing at the impossible dream and work to educate people on the possible realities.  On the one hand we can have the socialist paradise where big brother decides when and what and why or we can have a limited government that works for us. 

It all starts local.  Who runs for town council, mayor, Sheriff... Have you ever gone and met the candidates and asked them questions?  Have you ever run yourself?  No?  Then don't blame anyone else for a government that steps on your neck.  You have made choices.  Most likely you, and I, have gotten what we deserve from our efforts.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:49 | Link to Comment GMadScientist
GMadScientist's picture

A conspiracy of dunces rather than a confederacy, you say?

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:51 | Link to Comment Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

Don't be stealing my lines....

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:57 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

My theory?  There is NO monolithic elite playing everyone as puppets.  Why?  While I do contend that there IS an elite (a greedy 1% if you will), they are fractured, too broken up to effectively govern as a fascist (or equivlaent) state.  The Bushes and the Kennedys do NOT like each other.  Feinsteins and Cheneys?  Please...

"The Fractured Elite: The Only Reason We are not a Fascist State, Yet"

http://tinyurl.com/a75cwnz

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:13 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

its all CORPORATE WELFARE and nothing more.................starve the beast and boycott the fortune 500

United Fruit.........I rest my case

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:48 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Timken vs. Koyo (re bearing imports, at the US Commerce Dept. for decades).  Caterpillar vs. Timken (Cat wanted to import Koyo when Timken couldn't supply, but the latter objected anyway), a Cat machine sitting idle because of an unavailable bearing could cost $10,000 / day (again decades ago).  <- This is an example of two powerful companies at odds with each other, supplier vs. customer.  Sure, some things have changed.

Unions vs. corporations.  Public unions vs. .gov (some cases).

LOTS of politicians now against Obamacare (even D-Team politicians now changing their minds).

If these guys were all united, we would be in a REAL 1984 state now.

EDIT:

I am NOT in the 1%, so I do not KNOW, but I suspect we are NOT there yet, though I do not like the directions we are heading.  RINOS, for example, scare me too.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:59 | Link to Comment IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

Food for thought. Good post.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:09 | Link to Comment shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

I'm with you Do Chen.

Competitive factions vying for control, even though they work within a cooperative framework like BIS to keep the money moving.

Every King has to reward their court or they are no longer King. Same as it ever was, from the smallest town to the largest nation state throughout history.

My turf, My tribute, and a portion of which goes up the line for protection.

We have already seen how easily a self organized govt. by the people, for the people can be usurped by wealthy (powerful) factions to their own ends.

It's not a question of conspiracy, It's a matter of piracy. Pirates do conspire, but that is not the point. The point is on the sword against your neck as your treasure is hauled away.

The smartest pirates don't chase you down. They have you pay as you go. Far more relaxing for them.

New and Improved Age of Enlightenment packaging on the same old product. Pay up or die.

 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:40 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

There is a difference in competition WITHIN a hierarchy and no hierarchy at all. Rockefeller and JP Morgan often "competed", but when it was necesary, they were of one voice. Failure to learn about our overlords is a dangerous ignorance. While I admit it is a confusing study, it is purposely made this way.

We are in a real 1984 state, if you fail to recognize this, you need to awaken.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 15:11 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

 

 

Hello, Sean7k

I respect very much what you often write.  Please see my clarifications (at 4115506) under "seek". In a "1984" state, we would not have been allowed back into the country (yesterday) or would have been jailed upon arrival.

Especially now that we are "Trusted Travellers", LOL....

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:20 | Link to Comment Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Indeed DoChen.

I have five, or six, or more billionaires in my stable of clients.

When they rarely get together socially , it usually results in thrown punches.

The guys don't agree about hardly anything from the weather up.They certainly

don't trust each other.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:26 | Link to Comment seek
seek's picture

With respect to finances and power structure, the Bushes, Kennedys, Feinstens and Cheneys are all completely aligned and in total agreement. They just bicker over job titles and ego, but when push comes to shove they're all on the exact same page.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:46 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

What you describe is a conspiracy after the fact. What the average person understands as "conspiracy" is no more nuanced then whether the conspirator was a principal or an accessory in the commission of an act, and since the case is often neither, the accuser can rightly be dismissed as a loon.

(and whoever downvoted you could have had the decency to articulate an objection)

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 14:06 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

 

 

I can accept that, seek.

***

You guys want PROOF that we are not in a "1984" (which, granted, no one yet has proclaimed here in this subthread)?  We just came back to the USSA with our "Trusted Traveller" cards at hand.  Me.  A guy who yaps negatively a lot about Obama and banksters.  We had no trouble at the airport.  NONE.

In a true Fascist State, we would have already been locked up!  Tortured as in Orwell's 1984.

So, while I accept much of what seek (and many others here at ZH) say, we are not there yet!!!

I hear so much about fascist this and fascist that (especially from the young), and from people who have NEVER experienced a totalitarian state (I have), that all of you who say we are FASCIST NOW lose credibility... You really do...

***

Please note that I do see very disturbings signs of incipient authoritarianism.  I mean NO DISRESPECT to all of you who worry about that, as I do.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:28 | Link to Comment Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

If there is no monolithic elite playing everyone as puppets, how do you explain the ancient aliens?

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:54 | Link to Comment Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

There are elites that are cultural descendants of the hunter-gatherers and there are elites that are cultural descendants of the town-dwellers.

Each is capable of using the other's methods of control if they are found to be successful.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 00:24 | Link to Comment Errol
Errol's picture

Mr Bearing, I believe you've got it right.  People desperately want to believe that there is some group of evil geniuses in control; this implies that someone else is in control and we are just poor little victims.  It is much less pleasant to accept that our current mess is just due to the collective decisions and actions of all of us.

Here's an example: Americans like to tell themselves the lie that we meddle in the Middle East in order to bring democracy, or thwart militant Islam, or liberate women, or prevent the spread of Weapons of Mass Destruction (so we and our allies have a monopoly on them), or some such twaddle.  The truth is that Americans are just fine with the process of killing as many brown people as necessary to control their oil and continue our lives of comfort and convenience.  Of course there is NO WAY we will admit that to ourselves or others.  Almost every American benefits from our evil empire, and so elects congress critters and empowers comporations to do that dirty work on our behalf while enabling us to maintain a facade of self-righteous indignation.

Or how about 9/11?  Osama binLaden repeatedly made public statements that the US bases in their Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) were an intolerable provocation, and that he would get our attention if we did not remove them.  He did indeed get our attention, and the US did indeed remove its bases from KSA.  Rather than admit that binLaden was a tactical genius ranking with Sitting Bull and Ho Chi Min, we tell ourselves that only white guys in Langley could pull off such a brilliant attack.

Want more?  I can keep this up all night...

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:19 | Link to Comment unrulian
unrulian's picture

Mr Bearing, I think you make a good point, just missed the mark by a level, the 1% do squabble and (if you subscribe to the Monolitic elite theory) they aren't really the ones in question...it's the 0.1 % that run the show, Fed owners, Rothschilds, Vatican, Royals...not the Bushes, Clintons, Caterpillar etc...they like to think they control the system but they're just pawns (if you subscribe to the Monolitic elite theory)

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 01:19 | Link to Comment Quus Ant
Quus Ant's picture

I believe that conspiracies do exist, but just as often theories about conspiracies arise due to a lack of good information and our primal survival instinct. 

biological imperitive to identify threats to survival + imperfect information

 

There's too much shit being thrown at us everyday for us to sift out the legitimate threats.  Makes one miss the good old days when all you had to worry about was a sabre toothed cat.

 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 05:18 | Link to Comment lewy14
lewy14's picture

@DoChenRollingBearing - right on. There is no monolithic elite.

I can't say for sure where the fractures are, but they exist. It's a game of thrones.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:46 | Link to Comment therevolutionwas
therevolutionwas's picture

The lust for Power.  One unifying factor of the elite.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:12 | Link to Comment 22winmag
22winmag's picture

No, Our government is the biggest threat to "Our Constitutional Republic".

 

There... I fixed your post.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:15 | Link to Comment g'kar
g&#039;kar's picture

Even though it's supposed to be a Republic I agree with your premise.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 02:04 | Link to Comment Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

No. Our government is the biggest threat to "democracy".

It may well be as you say but will that be all bad? Your bigger worry it that your governors are a bigger threat to your Liberty. What the fuck is this romantic delusion with Democracy?! Your Founding Fathers warned you about slipping down that slippery slope because of its inevitable outcome; the advent of Socialism. On the question of "how much interference from government are you prepared to accept in your life", consider; how much under the present regime is there? Is it acceptable to you? If not, do you still long for your lost Democracy or more-so your long removed and guaranteed Liberty. Do you want a government that abides by the law or not? If you do then the laws have already been written, it's just that the judiciary has been bought off to ignore it or re-interpret it. If you do want and yearn for fairness under law then you had better consider a country which has adopted the standards of a Constitutional Republic based on law, with regulators and judges who follow it to the letter, under oath, on pain of death. A blood oath. Utopia, you ask? No. It's there somewhere. It's just a matter of wanting it bad enough to become involved in taking it back They ain't going to give it to you, that's for sure.
Sat, 11/02/2013 - 06:36 | Link to Comment doctor10
doctor10's picture

No. But they are to the Oligarchs who would rather we shut up and accept THEIR USDA stamped GRade A claptrap.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 07:43 | Link to Comment 29.5 hours
29.5 hours's picture

 

Here is yet another "conspiracy" theory:

Dramatic acceleration of the government's attacks against  the independence of members of the Federal judiciary who don't go with the flow of attacks on the Constitution.

In removing stop-and-frisk judge, U.S. court enters rare territory

"The 2nd Circuit has not admonished a judge since 2004, when Circuit Judge Guido Calabresi apologized for making comments comparing President George W. Bush's election to the rise of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. "

 

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:38 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

Aw, hogwash..

Next thing you know somebody will be claiming that my checking account balance is an unsecured loan to the bank that earns no interest.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:38 | Link to Comment A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I did not know there were any remaining conspiracy theories that had not been proven as fact......

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:43 | Link to Comment Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

"The Holocaust"

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 22:54 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

many have debunked the holohoax, but dont expect cnn to report it.  holocaustianity is the nwo state religion afterall.   all you really neec to know is that in many countries it is illegal to even question the faux history, and truth is not permitted as a defense.  ask earnst zuendel about that that.  truth needs no such enforcement to defend itself.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:03 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

You are a worthless waste of carbon and water. I can only hope nothing with a vagina has let you attempt to mate with it. Gosh, I guess there is no possibility that nations associated with genocide would be ashamed of what their government and people did. Obviously it had really happened, they would want people to talk about it and thus encourage groups that agree with the genocidal ideals to develope and renew - creating the real possibly of repeating a disgusting event at the hands of the government.

Do everyone a favor and kill yourself so your feces-level ignorance might be prevented from spreading to one person.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:20 | Link to Comment Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Easy bunz. Easy.

If you think some person is wrong, say so. But don't tell someone to shut up or kill himself. What the fuck? Are you even civilized? I understand that you may be sensitive to the issues at hand, but for fucks sake keep it sane dude.

People insult my religion every day, I just let it slide by, I don't care. If someone's words are upsetting, try to just ignore the guy, but this "shut up" thing is not ok.

A waste of carbon and water? Objectification of women to make your point? feces-level ignorance? Ugh.

Take it easy, man.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:26 | Link to Comment Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

Bunz is probably related to a survivor, a survivor of the genocide. There were millions of them.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:37 | Link to Comment Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Yes I see. I understand. It's very sensitive to some people. You know other people have pain - others have suffered. As for myself I refuse to identify myself by way of an old world ethnicity.

But for example, consider that if some guy said that that the Irish famine in the 1840's was a hoax, I would just ignore him. (P.S. I'm not Irish, it's just an example). Anyways, peace to all.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:58 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

If someone were to say slavery was a hoax would you ignore it? If someone were to say you didn't deserve to live because of your religion would you ignore it? If someone were to say it was okay for people to take humans as slaves, would you just ignore it?

Where is this line where I am supposed to ignore it and where I'm allowed to present my opinion of the quality level of a human who is a bigot?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 05:14 | Link to Comment The Black Bishop
The Black Bishop's picture

Slavery is a topic that can be discussed freely, as most topics are.

The problem with the "Holocaust" is that discussion about the subject is extremely controlled and in many countries it is criminal to dispute it.

There is a lot of disturbing aspects surrounding the "6 million dead jews" figure that was spouted even before the war started. One also needs to take into consideration that Auschwitz lowered the estimated deaths at the camp from some 4 million to 1,5 million. So the 6 million figure is likely rubbish and a political/religiously symolic figure.

Much of the problems with the "industrial death complex" accusations against Germany revolves around logistics, documentation and tangible proof in buildings. Once you start to investigate into these areas things get very odd.

Now, I am not saying that Jews a group were not a victim of extreme brutality of the Nazi regime. But I am not willing to support elevating one group of victims above others. Enormous numbers of people of many groups and nations were killed or died of illness/starvation as a consequence of the war.

The problem surrounding the jewish "Holocaust" story is how closely it coincides with the formation of the state of Israel. Meaning that there is a clear connection in building sympathy and guilt to support the formation of Israel. And Israel has played its guilt-card well over the years. They duped my country, Norway, to supply the heavy water needed for their nuclear weapon program.

What I write might not be your truth, but that is fine, as I accept that you have a right to pen your own view. Freedom of speech is a double edged sword, but it is one we should all accept as a basic principle of our humanity.

 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 08:53 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

You spoiled a perfectly good argument with an utterly bullshit (if unqualified) introduction. Slavery is not a topic that can be discussed freely, and certainly not in the two largest national economies on the planet, amongst a plethora of other places...

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:24 | Link to Comment Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

The issue is whether or not arguing details of the slave trade, such as numbers involved, can land someone in prison. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:15 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Denying the Holocaust in the US isn't even a crime (unlike most of Europe). Furthermore politically incorrect dialogue about race and slavery can certainly land someone in prison, particularly a Federal prison, since the "Hate Crime" legislation that allows the DOJ to interfere in State matters is predicated on providing evidence that the suspect engaged "politically incorrect" dialogue. The process in the United States is certainly more complex because it occurs in both the civil and criminal justice systems and involves some legal acrobatics that the Chinese don't bother to perform in their circuses, but the result is the same, if you express views that the State does not approve of, they can imprison you.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 09:33 | Link to Comment The Black Bishop
The Black Bishop's picture

Really? I have never seen a discussion about slavery and the history of slavery being moderated or censored. Not unless there were extreme inflaming and personal attacks that is. It is also relatively well documented in books.

Slavery was not something unique to the USA or Britain. It was a relatively common practice throughout the world up until the 18th and 19th century. And yes, it does still exist today in some areas.

My point is that the topic of the "Holocaust" is not something that is debated openly, nor is accepted to be debated in any aspect. Any attempt of evidence gathering or rational debate of evidence or lack of evidence is immediately squashed or ridiculed.

If the "Holocaust" was a non-problematic issue that was well documented then why the vehement trashing of anyone trying to raise debate? Why for example is David Iriving being literally hunted and demonized? He is a superb historian of the rare kind who goes directly to the source of historical evidence instead of relying on what others say. He commited the great sin of saying "Show me the proof. Show me the documents" pertaining to german extermination plans. And for that certain jewish groups are trying to destroy his credibility and lifeswork. Would it not be in the jewish best interest to bring such documents forth and still the debate instead?

As a child back in the 1980s I remember in history class in school that we were told that the evil germans made lampshades of human skin and soap from the fat of the gassed jews. Those were extremely harrowing tales to tell children. Yet, many years later when doing research to understand the socalled "Holocaust-deniers" it became apparent that these were lies. These allegations were debunked already back in the 1940s, yet the myth stayed alived well into the 1980s. Why?

I believe in rational debate not because I want to be right but because I am absolutely astounded at how many ignorent people are out there.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:02 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Try going to China and having a public discussion in regards to slaves being used to provide inputs for the organ transplant industry- your discussion will be censored and you might very well be imprisoned.

In regards to what happened in Europe during the second World War-- when those who advocate an open and intelligent discussion don't correct the lunatic fringe deniers it is used discredit everyone who voices objection to an unconscionable usurpation of the Freedom of Speech, which is supposed to be a basic Human Right.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 11:04 | Link to Comment The Black Bishop
The Black Bishop's picture

I am not sure why you use China as an example in this regard. China has many problematic attitudes to what we in the west consider basic human rights. The big problem here is how we in the west still consider -any- topic too taboo to discuss. If we realy believed in the right to freedom of speech then there should be no limitation.

"lunatic fringe deniers" can just as easily be flipped to "lunatic fringe accepters/enablers". You should never take away any persons right to express opinion no matter how nutty you find it. It is up to the reader/observer to judge the relevance or righteousness of the expressed opinion. Condemning anyone as a "lunatic fringe deniers" is only an attempt to curb discussion without any attempt at critical dissemination of their arguments.

Let us for instance take the collapse of building 7 on September 11th 2001. Would you characterize those who argue for a controlled demolition as "lunatic fringe deniers"? Or would you characterize those who argue such a building can collapse purely due to fire as "lunatic fringe accepters"? The correct aproach would be to look into the physics involved and the photographic evidence and then try to come up with a plausible explanation. That is the rational aproach. Many aspects to it can be debated, but some things must be considered fact. The building collapsed at near free fall speed. The timeline is 100% documented as to the exact time the collapse occured.

The problem is never the debate in relation to the quest for truth, but the lack of will to debate. And from the lack of will to debate, one must ask the motivation for such lack of will to seek truth.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 12:04 | Link to Comment Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Why do Europeans draw their world maps with Europe in the middle of them? The Americans at least have two damn good excuses- the USD and MIC. The statutory criminalization of rational discussion of the Holocaust is largely a European phenomenon, my comments had to to with your rather ignorant and Eurocentric notion that the rest of the world is free to debate and discuss slavery to its heart's content while only rational discussion of the Holocaust is verboten. In regards to the Holocaust, many aspects can be debated, but some things must be considered fact - Jews were targeted by the Nazi regime and millions of non-combatant Jews were killed during WW2.

On the bright side, Europeans are free rationally discuss what the current US President's plantation owning Luo grandfather was doing during those years he spent in Zanzibar, and how that might undercut any moral authority he might claim to possess when discussing issues of race in the United States, the Americans don't really enjoy that freedom...

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 15:24 | Link to Comment Tinky
Tinky's picture

What someone's grandfather may or may not have done undercut's that person's moral authority? What planet do you live on?

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 10:43 | Link to Comment Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

Black Bishop, my compliments on your fluency in English and your excellent post, but I don't expect many Jews to side with you and freedom of speech on this issue. The "Holocaust" story is too central to their identity as Jews for them to allow it to be scrutinized by outsiders. Similar to the earlier stories of Egyptian, Greek and Persian persecutions of the Jews, it binds them together culturally, while keeping them fearful, suspicious and hostile to the genocidal gentiles. It's a Jewish survival myth and mechanism.

All sorts of mischief has been done in the name of the "Holocaust" and its progeny: multiculturalism, tolerance and diversity. To realize that all of this has been built on the foundation of an historical event that is supported by questionable evidence is eye-opening for many.

Poor Glenn Beck, who wants so badly to be loved by the Jews, had a short run on FOX televison where he did his best to expose the forces, movements and conspiracies that have destroyed the United States without mentioning the obvious common link that most of these movements and conspirators share.

Beck encouraged viewers to do their own research, where in due course many were no doubt led to The Jewish Question. The ADL responded to Beck's faint-hearted challenge to Jewish supremacy and anonymity by having his show cancelled.

Which leads to the obvious point: that the ones with the most to fear from conspiracy theories are the conspirators. 

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 11:12 | Link to Comment The Black Bishop
The Black Bishop's picture

Thank you. I find it extremely disturbing how the media acts as judge and jury to commit character assassinations when people try to bring up issues that have great relevance to the world we live in. If someone makes a fool of themselves by making unsubstantiated accusations, that is one thing. But when someone is directly attacked for having the audacity to question an "official" narrative that is discredited through factual evidence, that is very scary. Not because it happens. But for what it implies. It implies there is an underlying agenda where someone is trying to control "mainstream" information in a very broad spectrum. In effect a conspiracy to hide something or silence any debate surrounding events or decisions.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 20:14 | Link to Comment Martian Moon
Martian Moon's picture

Kinskian

University of Hawaii study on Democide in the 20th Century

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

A quarter billion civilians murdered by states, most often their own state, in the bloodiest century of human history, thus far.

And you have a problem with 2% of those murdered, namely 6 million Jews?

What about the other 98% of those murdered, do you have issues with them too?

Hate any ethnic group you wish, just don't be coy about it, and don't pretend Democide is some fantasy when the facts show it to be the number one pastime of good little statists.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:34 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

I try to be. But I also realize that the only hope of getting some levels of intelligence to understand what they are saying is to use insult/vulgarity. It won't work. Mostly it is just venting feelings of disgust for people that trivialize the meaningless torture of others.

I certainly would never never objectify women. That was more of a biological statement, wherin I have the hope that his semen has no chance of fertilizing an egg, which would lead to him passing his damaging ideas on to another lifeform, whether it be human or a human/goat hybrid.

And as for feces-level ignorance: I think it is fairly obvious that anyone who denies the holocaust occured has the ignorance of at most a toddler. Feces is just hyperbole.

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 06:23 | Link to Comment negative rates
negative rates's picture

Sounds more like you did not get your health maintenance dry powder fix, and could be down to your last nerve about it.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:46 | Link to Comment MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Seize Mars!

Sat, 11/02/2013 - 02:15 | Link to Comment Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Yeah, baby. Yeah.

Fri, 11/01/2013 - 23:32 | Link to Comment Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

What was the cause you were helping again?

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