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Today, America's Foodstamps Program Gets A 6% Haircut: What Happens Next?
Today, one of America's best-known welfare programs with 47.6 million participants or 15% of the total population, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program also known as "foodstamps" or EBT, is due for a substantial haircut: beginning Friday, there will be a phased in $5 billion reduction (6% of the program) for the 12 month period starting November 1st 2013. So what happens next?
Nick Colas of Convergex explains.
The U.S. Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (a.k.a. Food Stamps) is the largest means-tested social support program in the country, with $6.3 billion in direct monthly cash transfers to individuals for the purchase of food. Some 47.6 million people (15% of the total population) are in the SNAP program as of the most recent data (July 2013) and these individuals receive an average of $132 per month. This support is set for a cut on Friday, with a $5 billion reduction (6% of the program) for the 12 month period starting November 1st 2013. From a Wall Street perspective, these numbers may seem small at 0.0003% of GDP. From the perspective of Main Street, however, is means a cut of $36/month for a family of four receiving full SNAP benefits. Record levels for stocks, record level for SNAP participants… An odd societal disconnect, to be sure.
We’ve written about the U.S. Supplemental Assistance Program (SNAP, also known as food stamps) in these pages over the years even though the topic bears no direct relationship to corporate earnings, interest rates, the Federal Reserve, or any other recognized business topic. The reason for this focus is threefold:
- It is a very large visible government program with monthly data updates. There are, for example, 47,637,407 Americans in the SNAP program as of the most recent update (July 2013) from U.S. Department of Agriculture. A total of 23,074,914 households receive an average monthly benefit of $272.51. This amounts to $6.3 billion in monthly support. As a percent of the population, this is 15% of all Americans and +20% of all households in the program.
- It is a good measure of how deeply the economic recovery in the U.S. is reaching through the socioeconomic strata. Qualifying for SNAP means you make no more than 130% of the poverty line and generally have limited assets. Those 47.6 million people in the SNAP program are, for all intents and purposes, a record high for food stamp participation once you exclude months where the program includes disaster assistance.
- It generates a large amount of hate email direct to my inbox and voicemail from both ends of the political spectrum. From the right comes criticisms over certain parts of the US population using EBT cards (the debit cards used to distribute the program’s payments) to buy beer and potato chips. This, yes, does occasionally happen. From the left, we get missives that feel a lot like that guy who told the world to “Leave Britney alone!” Food stamps, these folks argue, are part of living in a just society, which doesn’t allow anyone to go hungry. Half of all the people enrolled in SNAP are children, so it is pretty easy to see their point of view as well.
In the spirit of bringing our two warring readerships together, I would propose the following statement: “Something has changed about America since the Financial Crisis, and the still widespread popularity of the SNAP program is emblematic of that shift.” Or, in the words of Bill Parcells, “You are what your record says you are.” The American economic record, based on the Food Stamp data, is still pretty lousy:
- Before the Great Recession of 2009, enrollment in the SNAP program ebbed and flowed with the state of the U.S. economy. There are links to the data after this note, with the high water marks in 1976, 1981, 1992-4 and cyclical lows in the late 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s.
- From 2004 to the present day, SNAP enrollment has doubled from 23 million people to more than 46 million. The cost of the program over that period has moved from $25 billion annually to $75 billion in 2012.
- The notional economic “Recovery” which has helped domestic equities more than double from their March 2009 lows is entirely absent from the U.S. food stamp data. As mentioned, enrollments are still essentially at record highs.
- Sometimes big numbers are hard to visualize, so here’s a few ways to think about the size of the SNAP program. For example, if every SNAP participant lived in one state, it would be 20% more populous than California. If every person in the program linked hands, human chain style, they could circle the Earth (assuming a 3 foot reach per person).
We’ll sidestep the inevitable political discussion for a moment longer, and point out that things are about to change in the food stamp program. On November 1st, everyone in the SNAP program will see lower payments. Here’s the hows and whys:
- Monthly payments increased because of the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, but these increases expire on Friday. The jumps were substantial – the average benefit per person increased to $125 in 2010 from $102 in 2009 and topped out at $133/person in 2010 – 2012.
- The change cuts $5 billion out of the program for the November 2013 – 2014 period, on a base of $75 billion (based on the latest run rate of $6.3 billion/month). The USDA estimates that this will be a $36/month reduction in benefits for a family of four.
- The Center for Budget Policy Priorities, using USDA data, stated in a recent note that 80% of SNAP households live below the Federal poverty line ($19,500 for a family of three) and 40% live in households making less than half that amount. The SNAP program helps feed 25% of all US children and over 9 million seniors.
Let’s see if we can dodge the political bullet for one more paragraph, with a few more fact-based points:
- The SNAP program is explicitly NOT designed to provide the only income available to economically distressed Americans for the purpose of purchasing food. There’s been a raft of celebrity and CEO ‘Live on SNAP benefits’ challenges, where these economically fortunate individuals chose to live on $133/month in food purchases. This ignores the fact that the program is intended to be “Assistance” rather than 100% support.
- There are further cuts in the program coming in 2014 – 2016, to the tune of $11 billion over the period. It is an odd quirk of the SNAP program that its funding is part of the annual Farm Bill in Congress. That means these future cuts could be overturned as House and Senate consider this legislation. For right now, however, these proposed reductions would take the SNAP program down to $60 billion from the current $75 billion run rate. Truth be told, the pressure within Congress is to cut these payments further, rather than to increase them.
- If you are looking for a capital markets impact, retailers in southern and western states are one place to look. There are 13 states with over 1 million SNAP participants: Arizona, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, and Washington. The economic “multiplier” on food stamp purchases is about 2:1, so the $5 billion reduction in 2013-2014 looks more like $10 billion in the real economy.
To sum up (apolitically, of course)… The amount of money 15% of the U.S. population uses to purchase food is about to go down, and by enough so this group will notice its absence. It may not matter to the economic data on which Wall Street hangs its fedora, but it is certainly enough to spark a political response. How this plays out, I honestly have no idea. We are in uncharted waters here, as the historical record clearly shows.
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make the cuts that are grreat pol talking points..obuma loves it, and do you think that national park close down was just normal budget cuts, forced on the ol milk chocolate ivy league indoneasean kenyan mystery man?
Maybe next they will start giving haircuts to the largest welfare progam by far ... GOVERNMENT EMPLOYMENT.
I won't hold my breath.
There would be a purple sea of SEIU rioters if that happened.
Shotgun. Check. Pull!!!
LOL. target rich environment.
I always enjoy the irreverent comments at ZH, even the ones I don't agree with. But cutting the food stamp program is such a hate-filled act by the comfortable rich in Congress that it is hard to make a cynical comment.
I hate those bastards in Congress, Dem or Republican or right or left--they all seem united in class war against the rest of us.
Sorry to be so serious today...
I once considered it 6% + interest less my grandkids will need to slave for and pay back.. Then, I finally understood the world is one large company store...and it doesn't matter...
Seems this cut is unnecessary and could be funded by those 800k non-essential employees we heard about during the 'shut down'.
Local propaganda arms (TeeVee local stations) indicated today that a family of 4 will see a 36 dollar a month cut. Oddly enough they showed a white woman with a child and she wondered which PB&J she coud cut out of the monthly budget.
I'm not saying these people shouldn't get the money, they probably should get more, but 36 bucks a month? 9 dollars a person a month, seems like the regular cigarette allotment.
Anyway, it's too bad that Obumbler just doesn't EO payments to the poor. Why doesn't the media ask and hype that? Where are the people asking why Obama hates the poor?
Where are the people asking why Obama hates the poor? IN the NAACP. they gave Romney a standing ovation when he opened his presentation to their national congress by saying; "we both know, the President hasn't done much for his people". Too bad you well off white elitists were too comfy with your excuse that voting doesn't matter; it does matter; I did my part; because it was essential; but not enough people did.
When elections are rigged, voting doesn't matter.
$9/person per month may not seem like much but at a little over $4/day, that's two days less food for those single moms and their kids. I for one will forego 6% of this month's grocery bill and give it to the food bank.
Less grape soda and pork rind sales?
Look, hungry people, stop complaining.
We have the Syrian campaign to think about.
Syrians, Afghanis and Iraqis are gathering in large numbers on my street corner and look awfully menacing. Just grab your stomachs (I'm told it helps) and pray that rifles and reinforcemens arrive in time.
New check out line procedure:
I gots three hundred fiddy five dollas last month, I should gets three hundred fiddy five dollas this month. I buys six bags of oreos, five case of Mountain Dew, tweddy five cans of spaghettios, twelve French bread pizzas, gallon of oil, nine Oreida french fries, a five pound burger tube, buns, bread, three chunky skippy, twenty banquet salisbury steak, and five boxes of lucky charms. That comes to three hundred fiddy four dollars and fourty fo cents. Bought that shit every month fo past fo years.
Cashier: You could put back a pack of Oreos and a case of Mtn Dew.
Welfare mama: Oh hells no, I ain't puttin back nothing. You best be puttin my oreos in the bag or I'm gonna bring it up in here. Ma babies ain't gonna not gets their oreos, I didn't push no baby out to not gets what I gets fo pushin dat baby out. I gets ma oreos or I callin Jesse Jackson. You don't want no boycotts.
Cashier: Just take the damn Oreos. Your son steals ten bags a week anyway.
Not a race thing, more whites on these programs than blacks, probably all minorities combined.
Not saying the behaviors of the demographic aren't ridiculous, but this is not a race thing.
You're ruining the psyop. They must not identify with these poor victims, they must resent them. Otherwise they'll demand accountable government.
+1 cuz that's all I can give.
***They must not identify with these poor victims**
The hatred and contempt that the middle class has for the poor is matched by the hatred and contempt the billionaire oligarchs have for the middle class. The middle class has a strange sense of uneasiness and foreboding about what's coming, but they have no idea what's planned for them. Sow the wind reap the whirlwind.
Poetry aside, this country was built by the working people of the middle class who have had their labor and their dreams stolen by the oligarchs. The generosity of the American middle class is unmatched in the history of the world, providing not only for the less fortunate, but opting to have a steadily improving standard of living which would facilitate opportunities and growth for all.
But it was the tyrannical ruling families whose larceny of the produce of others was matched by their economic model of socialism controlled by a private central bank that created America's massive welfare system and used the poor, instigated by greed, to provide the political votes for their tyranny.
America was founded and grew through the decades using the Christian principles of brotherhood. But the huge wave of illegal immigration and legal immigration from Third World countries since 1965 is steadily weakening the principles brought to these shores by the immigrants from Europe. But as a Christian nation, America is/was a charitable nation.
The Center for Global Prosperity has found that the in the US (conservative when compared to Europe) people gave more. It found that "the $8.8 billion in giving from American religious institutions to developing countries was $1.5 billion more than the total giving from all private sources in 30 of the world's major industrialized democratic countries combined."
The Daily Kos in "How Come Christian Conservatives Give More?" says "Mounting evidence shows that religious people give more dollars and volunteer hours to charity than do nonbelievers, and conservatives give more than liberals."
[T]he small 20 percent of Canadians who attend [church] weekly are the source of 53 per cent of Canada’s total charitable givings.
If all Canadians gave as weekly attenders did, the total value of direct donations to the charitable and non-profit sector would double to over $10 billion. However, total donations would fall to $2.3 billion if all gave as non-attenders did.
ABC News reports that “...the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation.”
http://www.givingandvolunteering.org/pdf/n-vc1sen.pdf
"Poetry aside, this country was built by the working people of the middle class who have had their labor and their dreams stolen by the oligarchs." Bull shit! This country was built by good christians elliminating the established indigenous cultures then importing slaves to work the conquered land. Then, needing more slaves to work the railroads and subsequent factories, the gates were open to all of europe and asia. Your so-called middle class only came about by labor getting organized. That we all got fat and face no hardship other than not being able to by a new car every five years or not getting the pussy we DESERVE - is the way it is.
Without those Christian principles, the less fortunate would never have been given the opportunity to share in the incredible economic boom that was called the free enterprise system.
To return to the days of slavery is to misinterpret history. Slavery had existed since the time of man and it was western civilization from England to the United States that finally put it down. And for you to include this in America’s founding makes one wonder about your real motivation.
And speaking of “the established indigenous cultures,” yofish, this was not their country, nor were they “eliminated” by the white man, except by sheer numbers, any more than their warring tribes constantly were eliminating each another.
Louis L’Amour, author and historian, explains in Jubal Sackett:
“There has been so much concentration on the native Americans found in possession when the white man came that little thought has been given to those who preceded them (such as the Anasazi)… It is time white men understand that most of the Indians found in possession were latecomers, and all too little was known and who had preceded them.”
And: “The Indians that the white man met were no more the original inhabitants of the country than were the Normans and Saxons the original inhabitants of England. Other peoples had come and gone before, leaving only their shadows upon the land…” (Louis L’Amour, Haunted Mesa)
As to the claim that America’s southwest was Mexican territory, it was not. It was New Spain territory, defined as “the former Spanish viceroyalty (1521-1821) in North America including the southwest United States.”
from Encyclopedia Britannica Colonial Period 1519-1821:
“The conquest of the Aztecs by a Spanish force under Hernán Cortés between 1519 and 1521 inaugurated the colonial period of Mexican history. Mexico remained part of the Spanish empire until the establishment of independence in 1821. Along with neighboring regions, it was officially known as New Spain. …
“Near the end of the 16th century the northern frontier of New Spain in most areas was close to the present Mexican-United States boundary line. Within the area that is now the United States a settlement had been made in Florida in 1565. In 1598 Juan de Onate began the conquest of New Mexico, though the Indians of the region rebelled in 1680 and were not re-conquered until 1694. After the French had established colonies in Louisiana, Spanish settlements were made in Texas in 1716, while on the Pacific Coast the threat of Russian expansion caused the Spaniards in 1769 to begin the occupation of upper California. Throughout the 18th century, there were incessant boundary disputes between Spain, Britain, France and subsequently the United States, and other territories changed hands several times. Florida was ceded to Britain in 1763, restored to Spain in 1783 and sold to the United States in 1819. Louisiana became Spanish in 1763, but was regained by France in 1800 and sold to the United States three years later. The northern boundary of New Spain remained largely indeterminate until the Adams-Onis treaty of 1819, by which the United States acquired Florida, but recognized Spanish sovereignty over Texas, New Mexico and California… “
You've created a screed there that obviously has been pre-prepared and I'm guessing has been used before. Much of what you quote is true on the surface but if you are conflating what indegenes did to one another with the systematic genocide that the whites brought to america, so sorry, I don't buy it. For christ sake, tell me how many Mandan, Aleut, Creek, Snohomish and Piute bros do have living on your block?
Christianity, being a human construct, is dynamic. Thus the story isn't over. Love, human kindness and cooperation are not unique to christianity.
And, if america wasn't somebody's country pre-invasion then by that logic it isn't somebody's now.
"To return to the days of slavery is to misinterpret history." Who says anything about returning to slavery? I didn't. If you are saying that it had nothing to do with our founding, then you are historically illiterate beyong measure:
Of the 6.5 million immigrants who survived the crossing of the Atlantic and settled in the Western Hemisphere between 1492 and 1776, only 1 million were Europeans. The remaining 5.5 million were African."
The middle class--the "house nigger" of social classes since its inception.
Only because there's far more whites in this country, dipshit. Look at the percentages of people on welfare, single motherhood, deaths by their own race etc. and then try to say their ain't a problemo.
Dipshit? To quote Anthony Michael Hall in 16 Candles, "Ni...nice manners babe!"
Anyway, percentages are irrelevant. Even if you could prove that 100 percent of a particular race was lazy, shiftless, self destructive, and homicidally deranged, what point would it prove? Would you be the guy coming out asking for genocide?
Never mind that ALL races have lazy shiftless self-destructive assholes.
I think if you read my original you'll see I pointed out that the actions of the subgroup are less then admirable. I would never indicate that an entire race or group of people were all the same. That would make me, well, a dipshit.
Get it?
There are two groups of people I can not stand -
those who are intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch.
Relax. I'm intolerant of all cultures.
Culture is a primitive construct. Do away with mindless ritual and 'cultural phenomenon' that helps you identify and "feel good," and watch civilization rapidly advance.
I am extremely tired of people quoting movie actors and movie scripts in an attempt at adding weight to their debating point. This proves to me that movies are of much greater importance to forming the world view of the great ignorant masses than is generally recognized. Try think one time it no gone brock your head. Just because someone put some line in a movie script doesn't mean anything. Let me try once more; it means nothing. nothing. Okay? so, if you can't find the necessary words to debate your own point try keeping silent.
All I was saying was, nice manners. As in, why be a prick when you're being wrong.
Dumbass
Obviously it would prove that you are wrong in your statement that "it's not a race thing"; equally obviously this is all you care about and are excited about, the un-thinkable and amazing concept that you could be wrong. You are wrong. Accept it; get over it. Try to do better next time.
OK...here goes.
Let's not forget what has been done to 'blacks' over the past 100 years. Systematically ignored, treated as deficient and uncapable. Let's not forget what 'liberals', democrats, and race hustlers have done to this section of the population with regards to ensuring they are kept down. Rap music and popular culture foisting a culture of violence and the idea of unbridled, no care for the outcomes, sex. But most dangerous is what people like LBJ did in the institutionalization of hopeless dependence.
I can accept that I may be wrong in your eyes. I can accept that perhaps you believe in the superiority of caucasians over blacks - the definition of racism. My point in all of this is that what does it matter? Just like the idiot above, the question is, are you now going to call for 'killing them all' or 'shipping them all back" or just making 'them' live as second class citizens which alot of 'them' are forced to do now.
Rather than pursuing a path of 'logic' that leads to somewhere bad for some group of people how's about we pursue a solution to what the real problem is, the control of the bankers, the control of the northeast educational elite that dominate TV, newspapers and are responsible for most of the problems we're experiencing now. Obama, Bush 1 and 2, Clintons - we'll be 28 straight years (36 when Hillary is elected) of leadership in the country that was developed and 'trained' by Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia.
And if I may be frank, you are wholly full of shit about my thinking on race. Frankly I don't give a shit about race and I approach each person as an individual. More than anything, you're a stupid fuck if you believe that race is the simple straight answer to this multi-faceted problem.
"Now go get your shine box" -Joe Pesci in Goodfellas
Joe Pesci was told to get his shine box, he proceeded to off the guy who told him. Great Movie.
It is percentage of race that counts in SNAP demographics, not totals.
Of course there are more whites on food stamps, in that whites, for the temporary time being at least, are the largest percentage of the population. To report SNAP figures any other way than percentages when using race is inaccurate and disingenuous.
According to a piece by Danielle Kurtzleben on January 17, 2012, Numbers Suggest Working Off of the Program May Be Tough for Many Recipients, “While a plurality of SNAP households in FY 2010—35.7 percent—were headed by white non-Hispanics, according to the USDA, 22 percent were headed by African-Americans—a large share, considering that blacks make up roughly 13 percent of the U.S. population.” In my calculations, that leaves 42.3% headed by Hispanics and “others.”
The Obamacrat, trying to make the case in “Welfare: A White Secret” that whites are the welfare culprits as you do, tripped himself up when he wrote in 2012: “Although the numbers show that Whites get the biggest chunk of public aid dollars, welfare critics still charge that Blacks shouldn’t collect 33 percent of welfare benefits when they only make up 12 percent of the general population. They say the imbalance proves their case that Blacks are too busy complaining and blaming racism for their plight to look for a job."
My point is the 'percentages' are irrelevant. Thanks for all the stats, I'm familiar with them.
What I'm saying is, now that we know these percentages, what do we know about the problem.
Mostly it's a socioeconomic issue. I think it's safe to say that close to 100% of people collecting snap are poor and/or unemployed - forgetting cheaters and the such. So, to focus on race is short sighted to say the least and is not helpful in solving the problem.
The problem I feel is the progressives who have foisted a system of hopeless dependency especially on blacks with the help of the likes of Sharpton and Jackson Jr. and pork farmers like LBJ and Obama. The right has long decried the idea of democrats foisting governmental issues on larger and larger numbers of people....thus cementing the votes of the dependent.
I think the issue is WAY to complicated to simply imply that 'blacks are too busy complaining and blaming racism'. It's definitely a part of the problem though. As is rampant single parent families, and black on black murder.
Sorry - can't blame it on race though....though it's easy to identify people that way.
"Only because there's far more whites in this country, dipshit."
Which proves what?
What we did to the blacks, the top 10 percent are doing to all of us now. Karma is a bitch ain't it?
What we did to the blacks? Who's we? If you did something to them, take the mouse out of your pocket, leave we out of it.
I agree!
We the people will get screwed if we let them divide us into smaller groups. AAs did vote 97% for Obama but Catholics did about the same for Kennedy. To most politics is like a team sport. When your team is in line to win the pennant all kinds of fans come out.
We are ALL going to pay a price for the behavior of our government. I favor a resonable united approach to rebuilding the world when the SHTF.
The image of the black welfare mama is strong but the image of the poor white kid with no dad and a mom (or the reverse as I am often seeing) who barely manages is real too. When folks come asking for help.....are you really going to shoot them??? Really? Give them a bag of rice and send them down the road??? really?
I am as well armed as anyone on this site. I just don't think I have the stones to kill a person just because they are hungry.
It is definetely a race thing. your analysis of the statistics is un-sophisticated. Only a small percentage of the population is (self-declared), black; They routinely measure out at 90 on an IQ scale normalized to the whole population; IQ correlates hugely with educational success and financial success, the percentage of the percentage of useless eaters makes it a distinctly racial question. What you want to know is what percentage of the blacks are on EBT. Not the gross number; as their percentage of the total population is small; thank Christ.
So you must be supremely disappointed that you have to suck Obama's dick every day, you being of the superior race composition and all.
And I hate the fucker but not because of his race, but because of what he believes what he wishes to accomplish whether crashing this economy, marxism, Islam or black liberation theology.
A much higher percentage of blacks are on "public assistance" than whites. Since blacks are only 13% of the population yet more blacks are on public assistance...your propaganda is all wet.
Percent of recipients who are white 38.8 % Percent of recipients who are black 39.8 % Percent of recipients who are Hispanic 15.7 % Percent of recipients who are Asian 2.4 % Percent of recipients who are Other 3.3 %this really should have come with a "coffee on the keyboard and monitor via the nose delivery method" warning.
sad if it were'nt indicitive of a modicum of truth.
dont fall for the divide and conquer - black vs white, democrat vs republican, etc. Its elite vs the rest of us. They're winning.
This is why we should elect my dog for president.
He has no concept of power or crookedness.
Absolutely no money will be spent, except for his dog chow.
It has nothing to do with divide and conquer; it's a fact based question; are EBT recipients race biased. The answer is yes. Knowing the correct answer to a reality based question doesn't mean that you're falling for anything.
What was the "reality based question" in the article you are answering? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
EBT cards was the discussion on the radio talk-show I listen to on my morning drive. A gentleman who owns a fish market called to say that he sells more cooked lobster tails (at $39.95/lb) to people with EBT cards than to cash paying customers. He also said he sells whole cases of Alaska King Crab legs to people who, in turn, take it to a restaurant to sell to get cash. This followed the news story about the drug dealer caught with a pound and a half of heroin (street value estimated at $10k +) who had an EBT card in his possession. Connect the dots.
These are examples of Fraud; in the reporting process for getting EBT; not "normal" cases. In the case of the Heroin Entrepreneur; this is obvious, EBT was just another law he could break for his own profit.
Sat 800 That was combined verbal and math right?
No. it was 800 out of 800 Math. in 1959, before they dumbed down the test, twice. 754 verbal. Next question?
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that fraud is the normal in all government assistance programs.
Guess it's krab rather than crab today for me.
The first cuts should apply to all those Mud Ducks in Mississippi and Louisiana who looted Walmart when their EBTs malfunctioned last month.
"We are the world, we are the children"
Can't just blame the Republicans either;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/29/food-stamp-cuts_n_4173942.html
See how your rep voted;
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2010/roll588.xml
Is there a Wal-Mart cashier life insurance redemption ETF that you can short?
Each year the world shall sacrifice the wealhiest 10 individuals at the top of ten pyramids. Their hearts will be cut out while still alive and their stolen wealth will be redistributed into the EBT system.
...from which system the benevolent and mortiferous NWO Priests and their Bureaucratic Minions will strip out 90% of the blood soaked loot for themselves and for their crony partners. The extracted hearts will be put on the donor list for the politically connected (hello, Dick Cheney?).
"See how the System works for you........ er, for you....?"
"We're from the Government, we're here to help".
"I'm from the internet, and I'm here to help."
Taking money from super rich leeches sounds great. Giving it to low end leeches sounds self defeating. Lets stop stealing from the productive and giving it to leeches, be they high end super rich leeches, or low end give me your wallet , and shoot your white baby in the face leeches. FREEDOM!
Let the hunger games begin??
"Today, one of America's best-known welfare programs with 47.6 million participants or 15% of the total population, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program also known as "foodstamps" or EBT, is due for a substantial haircut: beginning Friday, there will be a phased in $5 billion reduction (6% of the program) for the 12 month period starting November 1st 2013. So what happens next?"
the fed continues to buy 45b a month of non marked to market worthless pieces of paper.
:)
Welfare was designed to be a temporary hand up, now it's a career. You could fix welfare in a minute by making these people live in dormitory-style housing, where you're fed rice, beans, and water in a cafeteria style setting; where you have to work during the day around the facility - whether it be janitorial, landscaping, washing dishes, or what have you; there would be on-site child care; there would be job-placement counselors who would work with local businesses to find non-skilled labor positions. If people knew this would be what being on welfare meant, they'd stop popping out paychecks (kids) and would just get a job. The problem would take care of itself.
I guess Reggie's Love is on handing out down arrows to common sensical comments.
The only problem I see with your otherwise brilliant suggestion is what about the dignity of these people.
There's nothing undignified about going somewhere for help. They'd choose to walk in the door; nobody's forcing them. If I was at the end of my rope and my kids were starving, I'd be thankful for a place that could offer us warm food in our bellies and a roof over our heads. It needs to be a somewhat shitty existence, though, to make people want to strive for more. I grew up on welfare and our life was way too comfortable; there was no incentive for my mom to get a job.
Not arguing with you...I was sort of imagining what the usual suspects would say. You know, the whiners who get up there and talk about the dignity of giving a homeless guy a shopping cart.
Clearly, upon rereading, my intent was not fully relayed...or not at all.
You just forgot your /sarc tag, LOL. Clean it up, maggot!
You're right about the whiners, though. They think if you hold your hand out for a donation that you have a right to bitch if someone puts a turd in your hand.
I call b.s.
Meat, Meat, Meat
you lack a critical understanding of the purpose of modern welfare.....
it is to get votes AND spend money (to increase our productivity ...as measured by the GDP)
If you make people uncompfortable they will vote for the gy who INCREASES the dole by 6%....silly man
There I go thinking logically again. You'd think I'd learn by now.
I used to work with a female that served in Iraq. The corp we worked for tooted their horn constantly about how they were hiring vets. Less than 1 yr after returning from Iraq the same corporate SOB gave her the pink slip even after qualifying for a higher paying position.
I usually enjoy your posts MeatHammer, but you're off he mark on this with more than obvious racial overtones. While some of it's true there's plenty of good people that's been kicked in the nads by the corporate welfare teat sucking.
Dare to provide the ratio of funnel up to funnel down?
Nothing I said was racial. I'm white and grew up on welfare. I'm not sure where you got that; maybe you're seeing what you want to see. I never said it was perfect, but I don't think your anecdotal evidence makes it a bad idea. It's a much better plan than letting people live off of the taxpayer teat forever.
Meat Hammer, the world we live in has changed. Jobs are obsolete.
Of the ~7B human beings on the planet ~3B live on $2/day. This 3B contribute nothing to the economy, yet they somehow do get enough of the material necessities to survive.
Globalism(International Capitalism) has been going strong for 30+ years. The Fortune 500 Corporations of our youth are now the Fortune 500 Transnational Corporations of the world. They use their position to completely subvert any meaningful regulation of them anywhere on the planet. They exercise this control through Debt. Our Debt is their Asset.
The unemployment figures of the US are nonsense. The workers of the US are now in competition with all the workers in all the countries on the planet. It is a race to the bottom for all workers everywhere, and the Ownership doesn't care about any of the workers, anywhere.
I repeat- Jobs are obsolete.
We either go forward into police state Neo-Feudalism or we face the tough question- What am I going to do with all this leisure time?
Well, according to one of the engineers of this clusterhose, we have a working "Elite".
I'd like to kick his Randy nutsack.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9132438/Greenspan_H_1B_cap_would_...
Nailed it.
***making these people live in dormitory-style housing***
Hay, that sounds a lot like a FEMA camp. You don't, by any chance, work for Homeland Security do you?
You caught me. Boys and girls, today at FEMA camp we're having physical education in the form of running for your lives as we lower some inventory on our 1.2 billion rounds of hollow points.
Ready. Set....
More b.s.
...and in other program news... most signing up for HC insurance are qualifying for medicaid.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/31/in-first-mont...
Maybe that is where the food stamp money is going?
SNAP is more about corporate welfare. The reason people can buy soda and chips with them is thanks to lobbying efforts of those companies such as Frito Lay/Pepsi, Nabisco, Walmart, etc.
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/10/20-1
It's true... and just in time for Christmas!
There are notices detailing the reduction posted at all the registers at WalMart. I saw them yesterday when I was busy paying for my ammo with hard earned cash.
Merry Christmas!
This means that Spiccoli will have to get a part time job at the "Shake Shack" and won't be able to surf all day.
Or, he could just traffic more pot instead.
The simple economics answer is that food prices will decrease with a reduction in snap. At least for the items purchased with snap.
The simple economics answer is that food prices will decrease with a reduction in snap. At least for the items purchased with snap.
The simpleton's economics answer is that food prices will decrease with a reduction in snap. At least for the items purchased with snap.
There, fixed it for ya!
Thank you for your contribution. Your mom must be so happy she didnt abort you.
They are taking away the temporary raise in benefits that Obamao put in for the "recession".
See, if the "recession" is over [green shoots] why would the temporary raise still be needed?
It makes sense in the end. After all there is no real inflation, right?
Something has changed about America since the Financial Crisis
Before the problem was being hidden by being able to keep adding to the debt and with enough growth feeling confident any debt incurred could be deflated away. During this time called SPLURGE THE CASH nobody noticed those great savings being made through increasing technological efficiency and outsourcing to lower cost countries.
It is not just the USA, it is everywhere but with one problem nobody is prepared to consider. With no way to support oneself in the economy then would ask one question how do you intend to support yourself. Reckon crime has got to be high on the list in one form or another.
so what happens next:
a)riots
b) riots
c) riots
d) a and c
e) all of the above
no cheating!!!
What happens next? The $5 billion in savings is dispersed to the corporations of Amerika in the form of tax cuts.
You mean they're not _actually_ concerned about the debt or deficit? Why, next you're going to tell me the Easter Bunny isn't real...
Also, it's interesting to look at this from a big picture view.
Let's just single out McDonalds since they were in the news recently for their McHelpline (or whatever) advising employees to go on food stamps. It's been argued that food stamps subsidize McDonalds. McDonalds doesn't have to pay enough to feed its slaves because Joe Taxpayer (you and I) pick up the tab for that. In other words, absent Mommy Government's Magical Purse of Dependency, McDonalds would have to raise wages or go under as the livestock escapes/starves.
You've heard all this before I'm sure. What you haven't heard is that it's part of a bigger plan.
See, they've pushed this cost away from McDonalds so, when cuts come, people blame the government. And those cuts they want? If you and I have been the ones paying for food stamps, why should McDonalds be rewarded by cuts? Oh they'll pitch it as lowering the tax burden for you and I but we'll never see a dime because the only tax they'll cut is corporate tax and we aren't corporations. May as well consider this a direct transfer of wealth from the working man to the corporation without the disadvantaged middleman in the way.
And if this works, watch them move on to all other subsidies, like rent and mortgage deductions and school loans and insurance (Obamacare - love it or hate it, some people are getting subsidies to buy into it and those will get yanked eventually). And keep watching as your tax bill continues to climb every time they slash costs...
What happened to Marie-Antoinette when she helpfully suggested that the poor who couldn't afford bread should just eat cake instead?
Hey, maybe that's where they came up with the chained-CPI approach to hide the inevitable rise in prices from monetary inflation.
It's all makes sense now. The rich are doing better than in generations and the poor are eating dog food. Try wait, they won't let you buy dog food with SNAP.
It's obvious what this will cause in the largest developed nation that probably has more handguns in private hands than there are private hands to aim and fire them.
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." Mao tse Dong.
Karl Marx correctly predicted that capitalism would destroy itself with its greed for monopoly power. It's happening right now! We're gonna be seeing a lot more "domestic terrorism" of people gettiing unhinged and opening fire on crowds hoping for suicide by cop. Posse Comitatus is already essentially revoked and everything is in place to trigger a massive civil uprising that will then be brutally suppressed.
Never in my beautiful, wonderful youth, could I ever have predicted a possible future like the one you proposed.
I am older now.
That it is possible...
I weep as the horizon rushes towards Nil Desperatum.
Move to Australia and read about it in the newspaper. Check out Surfer's Paradise; a town south of Brisbane with 90 mile white sand beach and meter maids who wear bikini's. It's not too shabby.
Is this before or after Dancing With the Stars??
I'm rooting for Snookie!!
Does less bread mean more circuses?
Good! Now, where is the haircut for the military industrial spy complex? Those fuckers are spending way north on 1 trillion dollars a years, and what are we getting for it? Government does run socialist programs like SNAP. They also run fascist programs like the giant spy and repression machine. The US government answers to the elites of the corporate and banking world. This can be proven beyond doubt, both by the open bribery of congress and the world wide imperial war machine.
But I have to admit, I support any cuts I can get, let the foodstamp cuts be a beginning.
exactly...so many comments on here saying saying we should be outraged at the corporate and banker welfare and not the poor...
I'm angry at any handouts by the government who collect money from producers by coercion and distribute it to the uber wealthy and the those looking for freebies.
Stop all handouts and wasteful spending....of course that will never happen by choice, it will only happen when TSHTF or we have a revolution. hit the reset button and start all over.
Regardless the entitlement mentally exist on both ends of the spectrum. The red and blue are on the same team..one offense one defense and occasionally they switch rolls.
I hold out no hope that it will ever get better in my life time. We are doomed.
off topic, but Jack have you seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkbvd9p1lDw
'Press TV’s documentary program “Untold Truths” is a revealing documentary film about the life and experiences of former White House Middle East policy adviser, Gwenyth Todd, who has escaped to Australia to keep safe from FBI prosecution.'
I'd heard of Todd, but never knew much about her. It's short. Only watch is you feel like experiencing a smoldering anger.
There simply is no greater threat to American national security than the "neocons". They are single-minded in their pursuit of using American blood and treasure to fulfil the Oded Yinon plan.
Meanwhile, people aren't upset about that. They're upset because some black people are bilking the taxpayer out of potato chips.
"There simply is no greater threat to American national security than the "neocons"."
You have to paw through a lot of crap here to find an intelligent post.
I really can't agree with this. The MIC is one of the "beneficial owners" of the USA; so cuts are unlikely; but I would wecome cleaning out the Pentagon, cutting all the higher officers retirements by one half or two thirds and cancelling all the foreign military operations; It's pretty sleazey to cut food benefits; I can't "welcome" it, some "cuts" just aren't in the right place.
Let the cuts begin, for whom? The same Republicans who want to cut $40 billion out of Food Stamps are giving bonuses to farmers. They stripped out pennies out of SNAP and are turning farmers to Cadillac driving crooks. Crop insurance, natural disaster payments, price supports etc. In 1980s, it was the farmers who were on Food Stamps. The larger public donated billions to help them out and why? All because farmers got in DEBT.
When they'll cut Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid they won't cut a nickel from anything. They increase contractor spending, and interest rate payments that go to the elites who should be paying taxes.
Cut education giveaways that run into 10s of billions and are mostly white entitlement. Between the military, Pentagon contractors and IT contractors there must be several million that suck-out hundreds of billions alone--these are white leeches with vacations homes, boats, motorcycles, RVs, F-150 and FREE Medical for themselves and their families all paid for and subsided by the working poor.
Let them eat (6% less) cake
Back in the early seventies people lined up at a warehouse to receive a box of "Food Commodities" - USDA surplus items such as white flour, blocks of "cheese", cooked chicken in a can, rolled oats, peanut butter, butter. Many families were truly in need and welcomed those brown boxes from the Guvmint. When the food stamp program started there were paper coupons of different values to pay for groceries. Now it's very discreet to pay with what looks like a credit/debit card. At my local grocery stores the clerks say that over half the customers pay with EBT cards.
In MD it is called an Independence Card. Quite Orwellian.
a large part of that is due to lowering the threshold income level.
call your local public aid, or health department to see the limits set per household members.
but before anyone grabs for the forks and torches, talk to a landlord that accepts section 8 housing. they have no problems jacking the rent to take advantage of that cash.
look to where the convince store owners association lobbied your state to accept link and snap in their stores.
or look even deeper at the politicians and ceo's that shipped the jobs over the border, insuring that the average guy cant walk downtown and find a living wage job.
Whatever happened to the belief in free markets and the individuals caring for themselves? I guess we haven't had it for so long no one remembers what they are. I'm not saying there should not be a limited safety net, but welfare as a way of life is celebrated in this country, not shamed as it should be. The majority of societies around the world cannot handle responsibilty very well. For those of us that do handle it, every paycheck is a reminder that much of the compensation for my hard work is going to fund the most lazy, ignorant and corrupt people in this country. So after the politicians get their haul, they throw the welfare recipients a bone so they keep voting them into office. It's a great system of you are a politician or crony capitalist. These people could not survive 2 weeks in a true constitutional republic where politics and business are separated and not allowed to so much as be in the same room with one another. They would actually have to earn their money.
That stimulus is done stimulating. Look at all the jobs we gained. Govt. employment has never been so good.
We should try 'cash for clunkers' again.
The (other) unions will thank you for it.
What's next? The poor figure out how to loot using flashmobs...dress alike, rampage...get what you need!
A flick of a switch away, My friend.
Whats sad is, we are pretty much letting China win.
No no , we are HELPING China win.
When did America become so pussified? really? where is your backbone America ?
People that got food stamps used to be ashamed of it, now it's like getting a free gift card.
They should turn the program into soup kitchens, make it for the truly needy. My guess is a lot fewer people would be using the program if they had to stand in line for some soup.
Think about it: Wall Street got bailed out, why should a citizen be embarrassed at getting bailed out?
It's all wrong, I agree, but if you work hard and pay tribute to the New Rome you are the mule.
At the top and the bottom the getting is good. All hail Caesar/Nero/Claudius.
Just for the record, $5 billion is about 0.03% of GDP, not 0.0003%.
"... with a $5 billion reduction (6% of the program) for the 12 month period starting November 1st 2013. From a Wall Street perspective, these numbers may seem small at 0.0003% of GDP."
$5.00 worth of seeds is currently providing me with supplimental nutrition....probably more than 90 days worth.
I'm saving $10.00/wk on tomatoes alone.
It was a great growing season here in NYC. I was pulling maters off up until last week outta my little backyard patch in Queens...and squash/beans/peppers too....homemade salsa and falafel for days..
I also did a garbage can potato grow....ended up with ~20# of golfballs....homemade tater salad and tots y'all!
Best of all was my seed grow....boxing an oldschool van island girl back into herself....the gift that keeps on giving....
HAPPY FRIDAY BITCHEZ!!
SERF'S UP!!
You are an excellent example of know how to be transferred to others particularly SNAP participants.
BTW - The SNAP program allows people to buy seed, unfortunatally it does not allow for transfer of know how or things like shovels and hoes and such things necessary for gardening.
Keep up the great work in providing for yourself and setting a fine example Vincent
"Um Hello Doc.., I didnt get my lobster, steak and drank this month ..gonna need some treatment right now. Please set up a 5 course surf turf for me and ill be there in 20."
"You have your obamacare set up?"
"Yeah Doc, It was free ....I love obama. Dont forget the drank!"
/Sigh/
RIPS
...and Skittles and watermelon punch.
wow Rainman fucking hilarious
The Farm Bill will take the 5 Billion and then some - so what else is new? Robbing Peter to pay phucking Paul.
Gee, Now they can cut Social Security without having grandma qualifing for Food Stamps.
EBT people can experience what many in the private sector have been experiencing for the last 5 years.
The "Robust Economy" is showing its Ripple Effects.
Who says EBT recipients are or were not in the private sector? What do you suppose they were doing before the food stamp rolls exploded? Did nothing happen in 2008?
"Serfs up motherfuckers".........
Phrase of the week.
I smell momentum building
I could be mistaken, but the cyclical lows were when they tried to crack down on abuse of food stamp and other assistance programs coincide with various welfare reform laws expecially in the late 80's and all of the 90's, as in they went after the fathers and turned it over to that states. I guess now a lot of fathers who willingly pay/paid as much as they can/could now do not have a job and well the scammers are allowed to continue on because it buys votes.
If the law of supply and demand is correct, this means that the black market price for EBT cards goes up. What's the worry?
Feed the masses Banker Burgers - they'll never go hungry again and we'll get rid of the scumbag bastards....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qWFhDvURLg
Soylent Green is....bankers!
What happens next? After more cuts to food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid get cut. Austerity comes next. Those three are 45% of the budget. Hey, you want the budget balanced don't you? Don't think for a minute that national offen...er...defence and bailouts will be cut.
Lessee, the $75 billion Annual cost of SNAP is less than the $85 billion a MONTH Fed juicing of the so-called stock market, and a bunch of the ZH gang is frothing at the mouth at Snap?
WTF
Seems like a lot of you do not personally know any poor people or people near the poverty line - I do, and it ain't there fault. A skilled 62 yo female divorcee from an abusive husband with long experience and lots of admin skills basically unhirable due to her white hair, even part time. She refuses to go on snap or any welfare, even though she qualifies. She continues to work all kinds of part-time jobs with zero benefits just to pay the rent and buy food.
There are several more, but the deal is, a lot of adults on Snap are there because of a shitty economy and not much in the way of jobs. Locally, the unemployment rate is probably +15%, especially in the winter. Not everbody on welfare is there because they are lazy, and some of these suggestions on 'curing' popverty are facist wet dreams that make Obummer look like an rank beginner.
I grew up poor, ain't any more, but do get that having a job and money can be a matter of timing, location, and some luck. I sense a hell of a lot of self-satisfied 'fuck you, I've got mine' bullshit through this thread.
I grew up poor youngest of 8 kids, never had new clothes for the first 14 years of my life just hand me downs...lots of beans rice and cheese. I've worked hard to get where I am and I have pity on the poor and donate to ministries that run soup kitchens and food distributitons to the poor, but that in my opinion is a societal function done voluntarily by private organizations not through coercion of the government stealing from my paycheck to give to the "poor" This should not be the governments role. I am equally upset with the juicing of the stockmarket and the money the government steals from me to the put in the pockets of the goldmanites bankers and corporations the military industrial complex and I would tend to believe that most ZH'ers are as well.
It just happens to be that this article is about food stamps.
So get off your high horse and donate some time and money at your local inner city ministry to the poor and homeless and stop expecting your government to do it through funds they take by force from you and me.
Bravo!
"So get off your high horse and donate some time and money at your local inner city ministry to the poor and homeless"
Very well said.
+10000 Just because some people are "poor" through no fault of their own doesn't mean most of the "poor" aren't that way through their own addictions laziness etc. In neither case does it justify the government robbing me to buy others Food, Housing, Heat, Ophones.....etc etc etc.
Lets try the Constitution all you people getting upset at the poor bashing.....The Government has no business subsidizing the rich, nor the poor...yet that's what they do to buy votes!
Fukkk the Government!!!!
I don't think you are getting an accurate perception of the ZeroHedge mentality and sensitivity.
Except for the "fuck you" part.
Oviously, you are able to read, perhaps comprehension is where you are a bit weak. ZH has all kinds of opinions, and it seems to me that most opinions posted here are AGAINST the $1 trillion/year QE/stimulus/Fed juice. Most ZH posters seem to be in opposition to the FSA. Poor people in this country are generally fat, not thin. Crazy people and some old and infirm people starve and need help, lazy people seem to thrive on our system.
You are not the only one who grew up poor and made a financial success of themselves. Good for you, now I have to back to work.
QE4ever, ZIRP, and TARP are basically welfare programs too. As much as I hate welfare for the poor due to all the unintended consequences they present, I can't help but shake my head in disgust that the banksters get $85 billion a month.
The worst part is that it's only going to get worse. Prepare for $100bn or $120bn per month when Yellen ups the dose of QE.
"Let them eat EBT cards!"
-TPTB
The above article is disingenuous. Food stamps were meant to be a supplement for people that, hopefully, work; yet the amount “supplemented” is huge – a boom to support massive price increases by the food industry that must be paid by those receiving no supplement. A 6% decrease in the "supplement" is miniscule. Via the USDA…
How Much Could I Receive?
Allotments for households in the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia.
The amount of benefits the household gets is called an allotment. The net monthly income of the household is multiplied by .3, and the result is subtracted from the maximum allotment for the household size to find the household's allotment. This is because SNAP households are expected to spend about 30 percent of their resources on food.
October 2012 through September 2013)
People in Household and Maximum Monthly Allotment: 1- $200; 2-$367; 3-$526…
4-$668
5-$793; 6-$952; 7-$1,052
8-$1,202.
Each additional person, $150.
Benefits are provided from the day the household applies.
http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/applicant_recipients/ben.htm
can we add a little 'section 8' to that?
Let's go after all the lazy dependent welfare whores including the MIC.
Grand Bargain? Any takers?
$5B/year cut to EBT(which benefits 47M Americans), but the $85B/month handout to Wall Street(which benefits .01%) will continue. Didn't I read recently that Wall Street has started buying up trailer parks?
Department of Defense officials dialed back the cost of the first Zumwalt destroyer to $3.3 billion, with subsequent ships costing about $2.5 billion. That's savings?
For the cost of saving a few billion in SNAP, the US Navy now can built two $2.5 billion destroyers.
What costs more SNAP for 47 million or 800,000 Pentagon contractors? It's about the same now until pension costs hit, yes you are responsible for private firms pension costs-- bet you didn't know that either.
We pay private firm's pension costs? Do you have a link showing that? It's obvious those costs would be paid out of a company's contract proceeds like any other company pays them out of their income. But once a contract is paid, our responsibility to those companies is over. Yet the companies are still responsible to their employees when they retire. I'm ready to puke when you show me otherwise, but little surprises me in the corruption department anymore.
The MIC never runs out of contracts.
So, "once a contract is paid, our responsibility to those companies [starts] over" with another contract.
"It's [now] obvious [their pension] costs would be paid out of a [MIC] company's contract proceeds like any other company pays them out of their income."
(you answered your own question)
That's no big deal. By that thinking, any company that buys from any other company, in effect pays a portion of that company's pensions. I paid a good portion of the Hershey company's pensions I guess. But if I stop eating Hershey bars, I stop contributing to their pension fund. What would be a big deal would be to still have to contribute to their pensions after quitting my addiction to their bars.
Actually its in the contract, government guarantees pension of private defense contractors. That's why defense contractors are skimming pension contributions.
It's called the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation. All private pensions are guaranteed by the government. So if, God forbid, there isn't enough war to keep Raytheon in business, the taxpayers will pay their employees' pensions. Your link:
http://www.pbgc.gov/
DOD also dialed forward the timeline for Ford Aircraft Carrier deployment, moving the delivery date for 10 @ $13 Billion a pop out to 2040. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford-class_aircraft_carrier
By the time there all built it is likely that there will be a new class of super sonic space drones that cost $20 or $30 million, capable of dropping a few rocket propelled high energy ceramic tipped tungsten projectiles through the decks/hull sinking such grand beauties with high reliability.
The solution to this potential problem is likely to be a call to build more aircraft carriers with a new feature called a "life jacket" capable of suspending the platform incase of hull breach, this will only cost an added $20 billion per ship, also congress will start to fund a restart of the buggy whip industry.
The first objective and non-propagandized article on SNAP by ZH, congratulations.
Long time ago I commented on another forum that SNAP participation increase of almost 1% per month since 2000 was indicative of declining job participation in US.
The plan is working perfectly. Government handouts, our education system, etc. have created an easily controlled and predictable society.
Beatrice Webb, yes the Fabian Socialist who created the London School of Economics, sat with her her uncle, Herbert Spencer, on his death bed. Spencer was the most racist social thinker of the day, and he had a BIG following. The talked and discovered they were both after the same thing - eliminating the sub standard humans to promote the race - it's just that their methods differed. Spencer famously said "exterminate the brutes" while Webb said to kill them with kindness. Nothing will destroy a man like too much charity.