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Total Healthcare "Enrollment" As A Result Of Obamacare: -3.9 Million

Tyler Durden's picture


"We fumbled the rollout on this health-care law," could be President Obama's understatement of the century. In the month-or-so since Obamacare was unleashed 106,185 people enrolled (based on a loose re-definition by the White House). However, in that same period, the WSJ reports a stunning 4.02 million people received policy cancellations. So, in a month, a total of 3,918,205 fewer people are now 'enrolled' in a heathcare plan than before Obamacare. So far, California, Florida, and Washington are suffering the most under Obamacare...

And here's the states where the coverage cancellations are the greatest...


and the additions and cancellations broken down by state...


Source: WSJ


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Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:03 | 4158612 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

hhaha I read the title wrong I was like "wow 3.9 million people enrolledd" but then I noticed the ( - )

 and was like "oooo now it makes sense..."

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:05 | 4158626 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Get used to it.... Yellen wants negative interest rates too.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:07 | 4158640 Say What Again
Say What Again's picture

And a VIX below 10, so they can hedge for free.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:17 | 4158668 Shocker
Shocker's picture

Healthcare will be the next hit to this already fragile economy

Layoff / Business Closing List


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:36 | 4158753 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

'Take that, and that, and that, you dirty rat!'  Can't have your insurance for $450/mo from BlueCross/BS, must have it through Obamacare BC/BS for $900.  Deductible goes from $1500 per person/yr to $6000 and we don't cover much except birth control, abortions and snow effn' good you can smell it!

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:56 | 4158826 walküre
Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:10 | 4158889 whotookmyalias
whotookmyalias's picture

It is stunning how stupid the people associated with mess really are.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:31 | 4158958 Joe Davola
Joe Davola's picture

Buffet canning ketchup makers too, I'm sure the commoners will understand - after all he's one of them.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:32 | 4158972 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

simply not enuf people named 'period'

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:33 | 4159194 Keyser
Keyser's picture

I love how it's hitting the Democrat stronghold states the hardest. Justice for the low-information voter. Perhaps they will educate themselves a bit better before they step into the voting both next time. 


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:48 | 4159241 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

For those who have had their policies cancelled, many are going to come to the realization that they don't need a policy.  They'll see the extra cash in their pocket at the end of the month and say, "wow, I feel pretty healthy and this extra cash makes me feel even better."  Perhaps it will boost retail revenues at Christmas but many of these people are not coming back.

This was a miscalculation of epic proportions and that has nothing to do with the website failures.  People were going to get tossed from their plans regardless and a large portion of those would not have registered anyway.

I actually think they did a lot of people a favor even if they don't see it that way right now.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:54 | 4159433 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

From a macro perspective, for sure...  there will be plenty of losers though in the "do in need insurance?" lottery.  The problem is going to be from the practitioner side...  for the smaller, more nimble outfits who can accept fruit preserves, deer meat, yard mowings, and small amounts of cash for medical services are going to have a boom...  practitioners will figure out that they can accept cash in much smaller amounts than they typically bill insurance for and come out ahead...  However, the outfits with very large capital costs (e.g. hospitals) are fucked....  those places that have to run hundreds of folks a day through in order to keep the lights on are going to have a rude awakening.  If the drug manufacturers don't want to play ball, then you'll see a turn towards homeopaths and mexican pharma...

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 20:32 | 4159631 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

I suspect there will be a bunch of loopholes which allow hospitals to bill Medicare for non-insured.  Currently I think they are stuck with the expense but lets wait and see if these hospitals find a way to bill medicare.  This is how they will move/justify it toward single payer.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 17:22 | 4161005 markmotive
markmotive's picture

What is America? Is government an enabler or a hurdle?

I think it's time for a refresher by Milton Friedman

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 17:56 | 4161079 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

This is the whole point.

Private insurers either go out of business or jack up the rates so high, people will be demanding one payor system.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:48 | 4159243 Zombie_Economics
Zombie_Economics's picture

If you haven't seen it, here it is.  The new web site design that actually tells the truth this time.


Putting a new face on ObamaCare


Be sure to take a real close look and read everything.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:50 | 4159564 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Worthless graphic. It would only have value if it was PER CAPITA.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:34 | 4158981 Ruffcut
Ruffcut's picture

And fucked up premiums for healthcare that ain't worth a fucking shit to begin with. Drugs that are poison. Food that is worse.

Need proof. Go to the store and watch all the fat asses that can barely walk.  

When the assholes that make 300K as oncologists that perscribe the same poison chemo for the last 30 years. They are not brain surgeons or healers at all. But, they drive a nice car.

My brothers are pharmacists. ONe is buying a new corvette, for he has had many. He thanks you.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:37 | 4158993 walküre
walküre's picture

Bingo! Why cure anything? The key is NOT to cure and the sick will keep coming back for more and more. Good for BIG Pharma and BIG Auto! Ding Ding Ding! What's not to love? And to pay for the nightmare we get stuck with inflation to boot because there is no other way to pay for all this fucking graft.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:37 | 4159206 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Big pharma doesn't want a cure as there is no profit in it. 



Sat, 11/16/2013 - 13:45 | 4160601 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

just wait till TPP is fast tracked into law, then the pharmas' will be able to sue as foreign entities to protect their markets and Intellectual Property in the US even though everything they produce and test is done outside the US for pennies.  You can bet plenty of politicians in congress, senate and white house will get paid off handsomely to make it all 'happen'.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 03:07 | 4164365 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

You guys are all complete morons and you know nothing about meds or development. So explain the first modern pharmaceutical product, antiibiotics? By your reasoning doctors want to keep patients sick and returning, hospitals really don't want anyone to get better, just on the edge of life and so on. How much do you suppose "cures" would be worth in a competitive environment? They would be worth untold fortunes.

The reason very few diseases are curable is because of the nature of the diseases and the complex nature. By the way, I have noticed that not one provider of "natural" remedies has cured much of anything, either. There is not one place in the world that seems to align with your views of what is possible.

All you conspiracty geniuses should start your own companies, hire a raft of PhD's in multiple disciplines, fund the labs, fund the 99% failure rates, find chemical compounds that are effective while doing minimal harm on the infinitely complex systems of the body, run the gauntlet of regulatory and approval processes of dozens of nations, pay for the marketing, get a fair price from insurers and government who want a price of zero, then survive class action lawsuits that inevitably follow if anyone has a bad result. Yeah, you genius, conspiracy types go for it. The endure the bad press and assertions of morons like yourself. Be sure to sell them for the same price as a Happy Meal which seems to the proper price. You need to do all this before the patents expire while fending off countries that do not respect patents.

Yeah, geniuses, you do this from your basements. You probably have conspiracy theories on a dozen or more industries, too, right?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:47 | 4159019 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

"...oncologists that perscribe the same poison chemo for the last 30 years."

I second that emotion.  3 principal sources of cancer, ionizing radiation, environmental toxins, and genetics.  The first two are also used as "tools" to put cancer into remission.  They never say "cure" and rightly so since many patients will eventually relapse b/c of the damage the treatments caused.

People will one day look back on this barbarous treatment regimine w/wonder...much in the same way we look back w/astonishment at the practice of blood letting a few centuries ago.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:32 | 4159188 pods
pods's picture

Cancer is a chronic, metabolic disease.  As such, it has never been "cured" by a pill.

For 99% of us, the only genetic link we have for cancer is we eat like our parents do.

Nutrition is the key.  

All these excuses for cancer are because we, as Amerikans, cannot handle the truth that we are responsible for our own health. It is OUR fault we get cancer.

I agree on the chemo though.

I would say the number one factor in the incidence of cancer is malnutrition, as well as a diet high in animal products.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:54 | 4159253 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

I agree cancer is a metabolic disease and a prime reason is nutritional deficiencies. However, I would add radiation and chronic stress as culprits as well. I don't think animals products really has been adequately shown to have a direct link. Many cultures that have a high consumption(Maasai for example) don't have high cancer rates. I will concede consumption of diseased animals may make your case. It was very revelatory to me after the policy of routine female hormone replacement was questioned, cancer rates dropped 7%. Estrogen promotes cell growth and modern American beef is loaded with it. I try is eat as cleanly as possible omnivorously, fill my body with nutrients, enjoy lots of sex and yoga for stress relief. Now I can look forward to death by Fukushima.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:11 | 4159314 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

100 years from now they will look back at chemo like we look at the use of leeches to cure ailments.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:42 | 4159541 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Chemo has its' uses, as do leeches.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 21:06 | 4159673 zjxn06
zjxn06's picture

"(Maasai for example) don't have high cancer rates."

Drink cow blood.  The new milk.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 18:18 | 4161112 PrintemDano
PrintemDano's picture

The Maasai also die by age 30. Not much time for cancer....

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:36 | 4158988 RichardP
RichardP's picture

It is stunning how stupid the people associated with mess really are.

That statement makes sense only if you are correct in your assumptions about what they are actually trying to do.  If you don't know what they are really trying to do, they could actually be geniuses while appearing to be fools.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:54 | 4159045 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

This is such a problem for me. On the one hand I imagine them as highly intellegent with a master plan and focus to bring the world to their knees. Then I feel they are lowly poultry bumbling around with severed necks blindly spraying blood on us all, unaware and insentient. But I'm a Pisces and find it challenging to herd my fish in one direction. Of course,the really solution is the guillotine and debate this over cocktails afterwards.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:15 | 4159129 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

reminds me of an old Rodney Dangerfield one liner

I asked a girl what her sign was

she told me stop.


Sat, 11/16/2013 - 18:45 | 4161171 yatikto
yatikto's picture

They live in an alternate reality where everyone has an Iphone and access to high speed internet. So, on a practical level this was a miscalculation, but it indicates something deeper.

They don't have any values to speak of.  Money as an example of value, is just a liquidity, yet its not something they share.  Differences are simply foundational and will not be resolved by discourse, because intentions of the hearts are a world apart and language is a just a tool of expression.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 13:50 | 4160607 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

If you track what they 'do' and how much money they make when they leave office .... you solved the puzzle of what their intentions are.  Check out Clinton, GW Bush's bank acount after leaving office and you get the idea.  Dick Gephardt leaves office and makes $70k a month lobbying .... sweet gig if you can get it of course it requires complete betrayal of the office to make it all happen.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:55 | 4159046 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

A computer guy (anyone who knows more about them than I do is a "computer guy") told me today that the Obamacare website is being hit with DDOS attacks, big time (1000 times the hits as amazon's servers).

From where I asked?  China...  Imagine that.  China saving us...

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:03 | 4159072 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Probably the NSA using stealth botnets at Obama's direction to use it as cover for low signup numbers this time around. Must have new excuses each time the ship sinks furthur into the sea.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 13:52 | 4160609 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

why would china give a shit

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 16:12 | 4160834 bonderøven-farm ass
bonderøven-farm ass's picture

Because in the long run they and everyone else tied to the USD will end up paying for the ACA.  They're pissed.  So am I....

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:07 | 4159091 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Turd polishers.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:12 | 4159470 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

By design.


Sat, 11/16/2013 - 14:28 | 4160659 Serfs_Up
Serfs_Up's picture

Yeah no shit. I am hoping that our group of thinkers (ZH'ers) will continue to grow in scope and scale... I swear  that this whole Oblowme deathcare is the deleted scenes from the classic "Idiocracy" film.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:58 | 4158830 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"Now the guy's got Obama as a partner. Any problems, he goes to Obama. Trouble with the bill, he can go to Obama. Trouble with the Doctors, the pharmacies, the hospitals, he calls Obama. But now the guy's got to come up with Obama's money every month, no matter what. Business bad? Fuck you, pay me. Got laid off? FUCK YOU, PAY ME. And then finally, when there's nothing left-- and you can't borrow another buck from the Chinese, or the Japs… you bust the joint out. You light a match."

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:22 | 4158927 Quisat_Sadarak
Quisat_Sadarak's picture

Bravo!   Perfect comparison... 

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:34 | 4158984 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

obama aint no good fella

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 14:31 | 4160664 Serfs_Up
Serfs_Up's picture

His Criminal Friends string had to know that, right?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:42 | 4159225 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Thats the Chicago way...

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 18:22 | 4161122 spekulatn
spekulatn's picture

Spake on:

Ooooo-kay. So, if I follow correctly, the smartest president ever is not smart enough to ensure that his website works; he’s not smart enough to inquire of others as to whether his website works; he’s not smart enough to check that his website works before he goes out and tells people what a great website experience they’re in for. But he is smart enough to know that he’s not stupid enough to go around bragging about how well it works if he’d already been informed that it doesn’t work. So he’s smart enough to know that if he’d known what he didn’t know he’d know enough not to let it be known that he knew nothing. The country’s in the very best of hands.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 20:37 | 4161418 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Mark Steyn absolutely nailed it...ROTFL!!!

Obama can't be the smartest fucker in every room he enters and then claim complete ignorance in every subject he's ever questioned

Maybe if we just gave him easier questions it would work ;-)

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 20:54 | 4159662 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

They will also cover keg-stand accidents.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 23:07 | 4159913 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

And sportfucking booboos

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 13:58 | 4160621 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Oh, government! Is there anything you cannot improve for us lowly peasants?

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 15:29 | 4160769 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

No, and now government will show you stupid peasants what a real insurance policy looks like. Never mind single men will be paying for maternity care. Proles do not need to understand the wisdom of this.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 15:27 | 4160767 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I work in a part of healthcare and we had surprise no-knock layoffs yesterday. The problems with Obamacare are so vast that it takes a tome as large as the bill to elucidate them all. Let's just say it affects hours, employment, pay, and income. People will essentially pay more for less coverage and higher out of pocket to cover the mythical uninsured.

I submit that the uninsured are a leftist myth. They do not exist. Here is why. Everyone has access to healthcare whether or not you are insured. Worst case is you pay cash but you will get healthcare. Everyone has access to insurance. Many prefer not to be insured and are uninsured by choice. There is also a huge charitable aspect to healthcare that goes completely unmentioned. Many get free or reduced price healthcare because the "system" made enough money in the past to absorb this. In fact, all government sponsored healthcare was subsidized by the free market stuff. In essence, doctors and hospitals could make enough through private systems to take the crappy reimbursements offered by government, at least up to a point. A pharmaceutical company could low bid a medicince to Medicaid because they made enough in the private sector to offset it. I could make a hundred other points but you get the idea.

Because the people who designed Obamacare are truly ignorant, arrogant and have power they designed a dysfunctional system. They are about to discover and own all healthcare true costs. As they/we do you will be shocked.

This is what happens when you move from a system based (mostly)on voluntary negotiated relationships and a fully coercive command and control system. Forever more every aspect of healthcare will now have to make campaign donations to Congress to try and get a better deal or better reimbursements from government and THAT is the true purpose of the bill...power. If it was not power they would actually care if the system worked and repeal or redesign, but they don't. They got power over the sector and they will not give it up whether or not the system fails.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 20:19 | 4161372 aVileRat
aVileRat's picture

Yup, as mentioned last week the huge drop in employment will hit the tape around February as all those professionals who were suqeezed out of this Pigou tax scam wind down their offices in the required 45 day trade-over period to AHA.

Yellen is going to look at that huge drop in insurance agents, pro-co doctors and white collar SBE's and willl hit the floor on QE 3.5. This will be compounded with the seasonal layoffs that pool just around Boxing day sales wind down.

If you think Obama is shitting bricks now, imagine if this warm winter leads to a H1N1 outbreak next spring ? You want some fun ? How would the Spanish flu look like given the erroded purchasing power of middle class specialists right now vs. their 1913 counterparts ?

Still think this FIRE economy is going great ? Wait till we see the collapse in new premium subscriptions & brand name drug sale guidance in 1Q14 when these new-poors can no longer afford their Celexia scripts.




Sat, 11/16/2013 - 21:43 | 4161558 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Rat, you got it. Obamacare is actually an attack on an entire system because of the ways that insurance and the labor mandates within it interact with all other parts of the economy. IF they keep this time bomb ticking till the business mandates kick the effects will grow exponentially. This bill alone has the capability to crash the entire economy. On TV I see people who only get bits and pieces of the problem. When they put it all together it is going to make their heads explode.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:24 | 4158939 syntaxterror
syntaxterror's picture

Wants negative rates? They're already negative.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 01:42 | 4160108 edotabin
edotabin's picture

Evidently, Cerberius ..... sebelius wants negative participation as well.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 14:41 | 4160683 Deacon Frost
Deacon Frost's picture

Yes, and also according to Yellen, savers are 'hoarders'.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:31 | 4158729 holgerdanske
holgerdanske's picture

What? Me worry?? ;-)

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:53 | 4158818 dtwn
dtwn's picture

Haha.  And que Nelson from the Simpsons:

Someone should play this in front of the whitehouse (er......blackhouse?) 24/7.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:01 | 4158846 Clayton Bigsby
Clayton Bigsby's picture

Can we please finally impeach this dirty rotten fucking cocksucker lowlife obama yet?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:28 | 4158956 kralizec
kralizec's picture

No, the beatings will continue, and how dare you advocate such a blantantly racist action!


Wake me up when the shootin' case I am downstairs...

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:19 | 4159338 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

Impeach Obama? Sure, why not. He deserves that, a trial, conviction as a war criminal, and execution.

Just like his predecessor. 

But aside from that little bit of satisfaction, what do we get for it?


Not even regime change, in other words, as if that would change anything.

No, it's time to downsize. And keep on doing so until the enemy — — at long last passes into history —

Seriously, the USA is as dead as the former USSR. Let's get on with it already.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:19 | 4159150 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

I noticed Hawaii is color coded, "state not tracking"; I can testify personally that this is correct. Hawaii is definetly not tracking. That is to say, their needle is not in the record groove; they went to Bat with their Catchers' mit on; not all their chickens are female; they're sort of orbiting slowly to a song that no one can hear; if you get my drift.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 20:34 | 4159637 johnconnor
johnconnor's picture


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:04 | 4158620 ultraticum
ultraticum's picture

The joy of central planning.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:05 | 4158627 Osmium
Osmium's picture

"Let me be clear.  If you like your current plan, well, you can go fck yourself."

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:16 | 4158664 machineh
machineh's picture

Fuck you, Obugger ... and the diseased unicorn you rode in on.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:27 | 4159175 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

if you like your cancellation, you can keep your cancellation.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:40 | 4159540 SeekingNuNormal
SeekingNuNormal's picture

You didn't build that cancellation.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 20:46 | 4159655 bread n circuses
bread n circuses's picture

"Rule of law" in this ObamaNation goes something like this:

"We have to pass it so that if you like it you can keep it when you find out what's in it."


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:57 | 4158807 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

His new title should be the Commander in Cluster Fuckery after this debacle finally plays out.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:52 | 4159411 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Let me be clear, bitchez:  We have crossed the Rubicon.  This is the beginning* of Obama's Lame-Duck Presidency. 

And the jockeying for election/re-election in 2014 and 2016.

* I suspect that history will show that the inflection point was Obamacare.  No, Syria!  No, Benghazi!  No, Arab Spring!  No...

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:43 | 4159542 PSEUDOLOGOI


"Let me be clear.  If you like your current plan, well,  1-800-3(F) 1 8(U) - 2(C) 5(K) 9(Y) 6(O)!"

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 15:36 | 4160776 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

What he meant to say was "If WE like your plan you can keep it. By the way, we don't like any of your plans."

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 17:42 | 4161047 AKrandy
AKrandy's picture

By his own admission, "I'm good at killing people". This method is slightly slower, but practice makes perfect.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:06 | 4158630 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

End of the line folks...this shit will not improve.

Happy Aloha Friday.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:20 | 4158920 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

What I find frightening is this is something that even a guy with a "TV attention span" could understand and yet no one is really saying anything outside the tinfoil blogs.

The Tea Party Republians don't speak for me, but their recent antics seem to have been more than vindicated.  I wonder how they will be remembered come next election?  At the moment the debt ceiling was raised it was universally said in the media that they were done.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:28 | 4158953 nmewn
nmewn's picture

They will be remembered for being absolutely correct in their opposition to this POS.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:36 | 4158983 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

That would imply hope for the nation.  


Hope you are right.  I try not to get too far down the conspiracy rabbit hole, but this time its hard to dismiss the idea they are creating a catastrophe on purpose so that they can ram through an even larger government encroachment (single payer healthcare will soon look like utopia compared to this).


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:42 | 4159004 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I've always suspected that is what this was anyways. They've signed up far more into Medicaid than they have "private insurance."

This link is a week old so I would imagine the numbers have only increased.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:46 | 4159017 RichardP
RichardP's picture

They will be remembered for being absolutely correct in their opposition ..

nmewn - I disagree that they were correct in their opposition.  They accomplished nothing of substance in changing anything about the ACA.

There will be a number of oxes gored as this legislation comes on-line.  The first to be gored was the ox of the self-insured.  But there will be others, each in turn.

The absolutely-correct opposition will be to wait until the outcry over a gored ox reaches critical mass, then create legislation that will pass both Houses of Congress - due to the critical mass of outcry - and fix that particular problem.  Wait for the next ox to be gored, followed by the outcry reaching critical mass, and push through the next legislative fix.  Rinse and repeat.  This process will take longer, but it will be more effective.  This process will actually accomplish something of substance in changing the ACA - in contrast to what the Tea Party Republicans did not accomplish.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:06 | 4159076 nmewn
nmewn's picture

They were absolutely correct in their opposition to it because it is now a known fraud...instead of just a "suspected fraud".

"President Obama’s oft-repeated falsehood, “If you like your plan, you can keep your plan” — something the administration knew was untrue — would almost certainly be a textbook case of deceptive advertising, punishable under Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act, which prohibits “unfair or deceptive acts or practice in or affecting commerce.” This includes a “representation, omission or practice that is likely to mislead the consumer,” such that the consumer would be “likely to have chosen differently but for the deception.”

TP wants it repealed in its entirety, then everyone can work on something from scratch. What happened had nothing to do with the political mechanics of tweaking a fraudulent law to make it more appealing to this group or that group, the foundation is rotten, there is no fixing it.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:24 | 4159166 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

An excellent example of clear and logical reasoning; with reference to relevant facts. Those of us who don't usually do this well, salute you.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:35 | 4159201 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thanks SAT.

Its kinda like trimming down rotten boards to make a different structure...they're still rotten

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:43 | 4159407 akak
akak's picture

Hey, if you want to make a 'health care' fascist trojan horse of an omelette, you have to break a few tens of millions of eggs.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:04 | 4159456 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...thats the thing ain't it?

There were "supposedly" 30 million not having insurance, at any given time, for whatever reason, divorce, in between jobs, young & healthy...whatever.

So the thing to do was...completely obliterate/disrupt the OTHER 90% of the nations health insurance policies in order to "fix it"?

That is the definition of insanity.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 18:30 | 4161138 PrintemDano
PrintemDano's picture

nmewn said    "There were "supposedly" 30 million not having insurance, at any given time, for whatever reason, divorce, in between jobs, young & healthy...whatever. So the thing to do was...completely obliterate/disrupt the OTHER 90% of the nations health insurance policies in order to "fix it"? That is the definition of insanity."


No, that is the definition of government.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 20:51 | 4161454 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well stated.

So its another "governmental success story" then, just like Fast & Furious, stimulus shovel ready jobs, the unemployment rate (young black males especially), the rich vs poor income gap, Benghazi, race relations, the IRS suffocation of redress of grievance, food stamp issuance, NSA domestic spying etc.

Why, whatever would we do without them ;-)

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:06 | 4159286 RichardP
RichardP's picture

nmewn - I think I misinterpreted your original statement.  I do agree that these two statements do not say the same thing:

1. they were correct to oppose it

does not say the same thing as

2. they were correct in how they opposed it.

I was addressing the second of those two statements.  I think your point was the first of those two statements.

And ... I've created this comment before I read the comment from SAT 800 below.  Seems he is saying what I've just said here.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:22 | 4159350 nmewn
nmewn's picture

No problem Richard.

Thats the way I look at it. One can be correct in opposing something unjust/bad/evil/immoral/unethical and still fail in that opposition. The good guys don't always win but they are always correct in opposing the bad.

Its just one battle anyways, the war will continue long after we're gone ;-)

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:17 | 4159334 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Repeal is the only option. Its passage defined stupidity all around and we must be rid of this disaster.I find it hard to believe people thought they could " keep their plan if they wanted" How can Obama have said this when he had no control over insurance companies that provide said policies? Were people assuming obama would simply mandate these companies to provide them? The promise was ludicrous. Or it implies something more sinister on the horizon.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:34 | 4159376 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Repeal is the only option.

This alliance of business and government AGAINST the people is insufferable and will not be tolerated one way or the other.

Now, I do think we need to address some things in insurance (after ObamaCares repeal) like when you have an existing policy they can't cancel you (or raise premiums through the roof) if you get cancer or whatever.

The insurance company has made a bet that it will collect more from policy holders than they will ever pay out = a profit. I'm fine wth profit, it makes the world go round...but...they can't change the bet after its made.

A deals a deal.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:29 | 4159510 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

If the actuarial tables are correct there will be profit. I agree policies shouldn't be cancelled or adjusted if the original stipulations were agreed. This is good morally and contractually. Sad this is abused today. It seems to me there must be laws on the books that could be enforced rather than new legislation. Most of my deals with my friends are made by handshake only and my word is known to be absolute. I expect no less from any business.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:40 | 4159539 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I think truth & integrity are long overdue for a come back. These will come before there will ever be justice or directly after violence in the pursuit of justice.

Same as it ever was ;-)

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 20:29 | 4159626 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Yes so true. You and I may be on the wrong side of the curve on this one. But I've been drinking too much which tends to descends me into nihilism. Hopeless that the only course of positive change has an violent overtone. Must it always be so? History tells me this is true so I have trouble seeing an alternate view.

The women around me drinking cheap wine are speaking how they may save $500 on a kitchen remodel. All I can want to do is punch the shit out of them. Why do I always feel alone?


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 21:28 | 4159725 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...there is no reason to be despondent about it, violence (at least to me) is imposing ones will in its truest, most perfect form, instead of the touchy feely-go along to get along-no matter how much it injures me or version of force & coercion.

People only consent to law (force & coercion & violence against them) as long as its equal, fair & just for everyone, lawmakers and kings included. Its tidy, clean and most of the time out of sight/mind & incomprehensible as to what it really is.

Its violence without the bloodshed really.

How else could one willingly stand trial, be judged sometimes by complete incompetents, be thrown in jail for what they know they didn't do and then rely on his captors "fairness or compassion" in the appeal to his own bondage?

No, the free man doesn't consent to law for the law givers sake at all, he consents to it to prevent real bloodshed. But when law is turned on him it reverts to what it has always been.

Willful force, through the exertion of violence, usually without much emotion involved at all, just like "law enforcement", afterall, it is nothing personal to them...but no, I do not consent to force anymore.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 22:45 | 4159887 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

I am smiling. You speak to me as a man using man's wisdom, clarity and rationality uncluttered by years of imposition of female PC. Your approach has been suppressed and vilified for many years to the point it is considered anathema. I am comforted it is still alive. I hope in more than just you.

Name me a case where realization of the injustice of laws was realized and the course was reversed to include all instead of a selective few without a violent outcome. I am trying to recall one instance but am failing. Perhaps I am too drunk and truth in wine is over blown.

When I ran from a cop when I perceived pulling over was too dangerous I was pursued, road blocked, trapped and found myself facing arrest, my resolve held firm. During the incidence I faced the possibility I could have been shot but this didn't sway my resolve. The show of force was impressive against me to cow me but I felt only anger at the spectacle.My sin was NOT bending to authority and acknowledging its unreasonable demands. I know at some point there may be no hesitation by cops, some sporadic incidents are occurring now, and full blown violence will ensue. I shudder to think of this as common place. I hope we can remain in the possibility of legal resolution.


Sat, 11/16/2013 - 00:05 | 4159894 Mr.Miffed
Mr.Miffed's picture


Sat, 11/16/2013 - 15:42 | 4160785 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

While Cruz and the TP are criticized for a stand that accomplished nothing this is actually the way most rebellions and oppositions start The first guy is rarely successful but attention is focused, arguments are made and current events are observed. Eventually, opposition increases and becomes successful. Obamacare as it is today cannot and will not stand. It simply cannot work. Something else will follow and that is where the true battle lies. It may be single payor or it may be repeal and free market, again but Obamacare cannot work AND it can crash the economy on top of that. Best to prepare for what comes next.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:25 | 4159172 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Dear Richard; correct opposition has nothing to do with the results, or effectiveness of that opposition; it has to do with its correctness; a distinct category. Thank You.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 00:30 | 4159291 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

I am forced to agree with Bay of Pigs, that "this shit will NOT IMPROVE!"

Being tortured to death by cancers is becoming the statistically most probable thing to happen. As many previous comments above have already pointed out, there is a runaway SOCIAL INSANITY manifesting everywhere, and particularly inside America, that has become more than anything else the triumph of fraudulently biased "science" serving corporate interests, backed by the force of government, so that almost nothing effective is done to prevent cancers, while everything which can make the most money from that horror is advancing under the protection of various monopoly powers.

America is being destroyed by the way that the funding of the political processes have enabled almost everything that the government and government mandated bureaucracies do ends up serving the runaway perversity PROFIT FROM DISEASE

... In reality, virtually the entire cancer industry is one massive fraud, in the sense that it's not really allowing authentic and inexpensive cancer cures that address the cause of the problem to come to market. They are virtually all violently opposed and condemned. It's a massive for-profit industry, and unless a treatment revolves around a costly drug that can be patented, it will never see the light of day. The whole idea that the cancer industry is "searching for a cure" is a sham... because cures already exist. But they're being massively suppressed.

... "The Politics of Cancer" explained how exposure to environmental and occupational carcinogens causes cancer. Yet they're avoidable because safe substitutes exist. Nonetheless, the National Cancer Institute (NCI) and American Cancer Society (ACS) - groups Epstein calls "the cancer establishment" - ignore preventable causes, searching for non-existant magic bullet cures. In fact, they allocate minimal budget amounts to prevention while deceiving people to believe they stress it.

Cancer - The Forbidden Cures


Breakthrough in cancer prevention: Vitamin D


The paradox in medicine is the result of two facts:

Fact #1:

Cancer is a trillion dollar disease to modern medicine because there is a great deal of money in treating cancer as a chronic disease while they pretend there are no cures for cancer and they pretend to be looking for a cure for cancer. Therefore, those people who have no interest in curing cancer, because curing cancer would cut into their profits, have many, many, many billions of dollars to control the White House (e.g. the FDA, FTC, FCC, etc. appointments), Congress, buy the loyalty of the mass media, etc. etc. ... For example, any presidential candidate who is not acceptable to the corporate cartels is completely blacklisted by the media (except to call the person an 'idiot') to insure they are not elected. The media itself is a giant cartel which has its own police force - the FCC.

Fact #2:

There is very little money in curing cancer with alternative cancer treatments, and there is even less money in telling people how to cure their cancer at home. Thus, there are very few people who know how to cure cancer and most of them make very little money curing cancer, thus this group has a pathetically small amount of money compared to how much money Big Medicine and Big Pharma have!




Mostly things get worse, faster!





Sat, 11/16/2013 - 15:07 | 4160730 Trimmed Hedge
Trimmed Hedge's picture

But doesn't it occur to these guys that some of their friends & family will probably get cancer -- and even possibly themselves?

Or is the lure of money simply to difficult to ignore?

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 16:53 | 4160911 Loose Caboose
Loose Caboose's picture

Yes, this is the question I always end up with when I read this type of rant about the proverbial "they" allowing the causes for cancer to proliferate while supressing a cure for profit.  Isn't that like poisoning your own well?  "They" are human beings being exposed to the same hazards as the rest of us.  They do not live in a carcinogenic free bubble. They live on planet Earth with the rest of us.

While I do believe big pharma extracts as much money as possible from cancer and our fear of cancer (useless and sometimes harmful screening), I just can't accept that they are fine with their loved ones and themselves being exposed to the same risks as the rest of us for profit alone.  They are not cyborgs or immune from cancer.

So what am I missing here?  Can someone elighten me? 

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 16:36 | 4160879 MSimon
MSimon's picture

You can read more about cures at:

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:06 | 4158631 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Wow! I'm surprised at the enrollment numbers in CA and NY, highest on the list.  Amazing(not)!

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:30 | 4158966 kralizec
kralizec's picture

This is hurting mostly idiots in states that went full-tard for Obama...sometimes stupid should hurt like a motherfucker!

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:06 | 4158634 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

No.....the president said that those people who were cancelled can keep their insurance for up to a year.

And the insurance companies will just tell those schmucks that if you have ANY questions about your cancellation you need to talk to that fuck up in HR about it.  

And the address of HR is 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:18 | 4158672 Sauk Leader
Sauk Leader's picture

I cant wait to see how this works out. The better analogy instead of a fumble would be that we are down by 8 with 5 seconds left, we took the kickoff and are now trying to lateral the ball to any open player on the field. Good Luck.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:25 | 4158940 francis_the_won...
francis_the_wonder_hamster's picture

Your analogy assumes that they are even aware of what sport it is that they are supposed to be playing.


This is more like they showed up at the football stadium with golf equipment, mandated that all fans not only still pay for their tickets but also pay for an empty seat next to them, realized that they didn't know the rules of golf anyways (the rulebook being 2000 pages long so nobody bothered to read it) still starting the game despite nobody bothering to turn the power on at the stadium, and then proceeding to make up the rules of "golf-ball" as they went along, all the time telling us what a great sporting event this was.


Or something like that......

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:27 | 4159176 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Ouch. Yes, that's much better.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 21:02 | 4159669 Sokhmate
Sokhmate's picture

that would be Calvin ball.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 15:45 | 4160791 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Very nice analogy and as a guy that works in healthcare, very accurate. Bravo, francis.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:36 | 4158987 g speed
g speed's picture

better yet--it's a "black swan"   or maybe a white/brown/tan wana not be swan. The POS in the offal oriface is totally clueless. However this brings to mind a concept that Senators make lousy Presidents. They tend to micro-manage stuff and lose sight of the forest because of the trees. 

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:02 | 4159453 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

How do you micromanage from the golf course?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:02 | 4159050 RichardP
RichardP's picture

No.....the president said that those people who were cancelled can keep their insurance for up to a year.

You have mischaracterized this statement by the President as badly as his first statement was mischaracterized.

There was then, and is now, nothing in the ACA that forces the Insurance Companies to cancel the policies of the self-insured.  The Insurance Companies could have then, and can now, fix those policies to comply with the ACA and charge a small increase in the premium where appropriate.

The President then, and now, can only state what he can control.  He cannot control the Insurance Companies.  Therefore, he can say no more than this:  there is no language in the ACA that forces the insurance companies to cancel your policy.

With his most recent remarks, the President has not told the self-insured that they can keep their old policies for another year.  Rather, he has asked the insurance companies to allow the self-insured to keep their old policies for another year.  The President of the U.S. cannot force the Insurance Companies to do this.  I'm thinking that not even Congress can force the Insurance Companies to do this (but we will find out).  I'm thinking that only the insurance commissioner of each state can force the Insurance Companies operating in their state to do this.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:20 | 4159140 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"There was then, and is now, nothing in the ACA that forces the Insurance Companies to cancel the policies of the self-insured."

The regulations that were written to implement ObamaCare is what is causing the cancellations. That is Sebelius, who answers to Obama, as in "The Secretary shall determine." which is written into the law. 

You're not seriously suggesting that an insurance company collecting premiums (read: money) on any policy wakes up one morning and says "Ya know, we're getting pretty fat & happy collecting all this money from people, lets cancel some of our own business."...are you?

"Therefore, he can say no more than this:  there is no language in the ACA that forces the insurance companies to cancel your policy."

Which brings up another point, if a politician lies by omission, are they being honest with the people? ;-)

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:44 | 4159381 RichardP
RichardP's picture

You're not seriously suggesting that an insurance company [will] cancel some of [their] own business."...are you?

1.  There is nothing in the ACA or the resulting regulations that require the insurance carriers to cancel policies rather than fix them.  That is what the President meant then (but did a poor job of saying it), and is what he is saying now.  That is the fact.

2.  Many insurance carriers have chosen to not be a part of the exchanges.  They may still sell policies on the open market.  It will be interesting to see if these companies have cancelled policies at the same percentage rate as those companies selling policies inside of the exchanges.  It will take some time to compile accurate statistics.

3.  You may not know this, but the cancellation works like this (paraphrasing):  "Because your current policy does not meet the requirements of the ACA, it is hereby cancelled effective December 31, 2013.  If you do not elect a new policy by that date, we will roll you over into a policy that does meet the requirements of the ACA".  (That is pretty much what it says in my cancellation notice.)  Interestingly enough, the price of this roll-over policy is not given.  It is left up to the customer to go onto the Internet and figure out what updated policies are available.  I'm sure a fair number of folks don't realize how much more costly the roll-over policies will be.  But for those who do know, there won't be anything cheaper for them on the exchanges or in the market-place - unless they go to a lesser-value metal plan.  And if they do that, they won't have the coverage they used to have.

4.  The laws of inertia being what they are, and human nature what it is, it is probable that a large number of folks with cancelled policies will let tne insurance company roll their policy into a compliant one at the discretion of the insurance company.  The folks who do venture onto the exchanges to look for new policies will discover that ACA requires the insurance companies all to cover the same thing for a given price point.  The effect of this will be to make the consumer ambivelant between two company choices within a given metal category.  "Why not stay with a company that we know?"  At three times the cost.  "It will still be three times the cost if we move to a company that we don't know."

So, yeah.  I'm thinking that the insurance companies are expecting to turn a higher profit by cancelling policies rather than fixing them for a more modest increase in price.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:56 | 4159438 nmewn
nmewn's picture

1.  There is nothing in the ACA >>>or the resulting regulations that require the insurance carriers to cancel policies rather than fix them.<<<  That is what the President meant then (but did a poor job of saying it), and is what he is saying now.  That is the fact.

Actually there is, buried on page 34,560 of the Federal Register dealing with grandfathered status. Everyone is going to lose what they have the very triggering events used:

I'm in general agreement on the rest, outside of mandatory coverages, a guy doesn't need birth control pills or maternity coverage etc.

The insurance companies jumped in bed with Obama/Pelosi/Reid that the government would FORCE people to buy health insurance or pay a fine/tax/penalty (whatever the fuck)...thats what makes it totalitarian/authoritarian/evil at any price.

Even for just a penny a year...its not voluntary.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 05:51 | 4160213 RichardP
RichardP's picture

nmewn - my comments were directed to the current situation, which involves private health insurance.  The discussion at your link concerns group health insurance paid for by an employer or employee organization.  That immediately makes it a different subject than what I was addressing.  But even if that page addressed private insurance, your point is still shakey.  Those words are telling insurance companies what they can do to keep the policies grandfathered (I did read the entire page; I frequently need to read the Federal Register as part of my job in private industry).  Those words are not telling the Insurance Companies that they must cancel the insurance policies.

Bazza - I stand by what I have said.  The insurance industry had a large presence in drafting the ACA and making certain that provisions they didn't like stayed out of the final copy.  Google Liz Fowler; here is a start:

There is no interest on the part of the insurance industry in fixing the old and cheaper; rather, they are intent on forcing as many as possible into the new and more expensive.

You either missed, or are ignoring, the point I made that makes all of this possible for the insurance companies: for a particular level of coverage, there is no benefit in switching insurance companies.  They are all charging roughly the same for the same level of metal plans.  The Public Option would have introduced competition into the pricing of plans, so the insurance industry made certain that that part of the ACA act was struck from the Act.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 08:17 | 4160265 nmewn
nmewn's picture


I am not going to copy & paste the entire page here, you read it, there is nothing an insurance company can do about inflation, for just one example.

But what you're saying defies the reality of what we see around us.

No one is blaming the insurance companies for coming into compliance with the mandates of the law. They're blaming the politicians who passed it. A sitting president is now apologizing for encroaching into peoples lives, at a very personal level, some of those lives are cancer patients who will die without the coverage they already had and could afford.

Now congress is passing legislation to "fix" one consequence of the law it passed or regulations that are the result of it. Why? And finally the DoJ is not opening any investigations against insurance companies for malpratice. Why not? Because they are complying with how its written & regulated. 

All of the above points back to the cause.

Insurance company execs can be faulted with jumping into bed with Obama/Pelosi/Reid for a quick kill on their stock options but they are complying with the law, they have to or they're out of business. Regulators would shut them down or impose fines.


And I'm not the least bit interested in bailing out insurance companies forced into compliance by the law either:

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:00 | 4159452 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Insurance companies don't "turn a higher profit" when they cancel someone and have that person either go without insurance or insure with someone else.

The very words you quote in para 3 show that the companies were forced to cancel your policy.  If they had the option to totally change the existing policy and increase your premium they would have done so, since that would have maximised retention and profit.  Of course this would have meant that they unilaterally totally rewrote an existing contract and tried to bill you for it, which might have run afoul of contract law.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:10 | 4159106 ExpendableOne
ExpendableOne's picture

I would love to be a fly on the wall when the insurance company lawyer briefs the CEO on the viability of taking the presidents word against "settled" law.  

The ACA (Obambi Care) is turning into a real gift to law firms everywhere.  Next year will be known as the year of the class action.  

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:32 | 4159186 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

I already know two people who will never vote Democrat  for anything for the rest of their lives. Previously, to getting their insurance CANCELLED; they were all, oh, it's not so bad, you'll see; he's just trying to take care of those poor people; yada, yada. Now, it's their insurance that's CANCELLED; it's all WTF!! This is an outrage ! It's two outrages !! and; I swear, "I'll never vote for another Democrat for anything for the rest of my life". so, some good may come from this.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:06 | 4158635 FieldingMellish
FieldingMellish's picture

Official healthcare website now called:

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:08 | 4158642 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

Yes We Can fuck up this country 

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:08 | 4158644 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Withdraw consent.  Vote with your wallet.  It's the only thing you have control over, until the knock on your door.

I will not comply with an unlawful law passed through fraudulent pretenses.  In addition, it changes at the whim of Obama versus the Constitutional process through Congress if he wants changes.

My answer....FUCK YOU!

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:19 | 4158678 pods
pods's picture

This really is embarassing.  I will no longer feel sorry for those in banana republics.  Shit, at least they have bananas.

All we have is one gigantic clusterfuck that everyone keeps trying to fix.  

Stop digging. Please.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:36 | 4158991 nmewn
nmewn's picture

It is amusing isn't it?

I will assume this bill doesn't say anything like "The Secretary shall determine" ;-)

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:34 | 4159199 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

LOL. "at least they have bananas". Yes, well, what can you say?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:43 | 4159227 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

"I will no longer feel sorry for those in banana republics."

Except most aren't republics as we know it anymore... time to call'em soviet bananas.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 15:50 | 4160799 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Banana republics get a bad name. As long as they are not the leftist control freak types they can be pretty free. As long as the local dictator stays fairly wealthy he does not care to run every aspect of your life. The cut he takes on lucrative things is probably no worse than your local honest tax rate and regulatory costs.

Just stay away from the socialist banana republics and you might be okay.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:30 | 4158965 clawsthatscratch
clawsthatscratch's picture

Hopefully you understand that Ghandi knew there would be lots of casulties in this type of protest, takes mucho courage...not sure how much exists currently.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:51 | 4159037 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

Funny thing, courage.  You only have it when you use it.  You only use it when you need it.  We shall see....

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:32 | 4158973 kralizec
kralizec's picture

Indeed, Herr Colonel, resistance is mandatory!

Fuck 'em!

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:12 | 4158657 jcaz
jcaz's picture

LOL-  yep, I'm a 53 yr old man in Florida who hasn't made a claim on my health insurance for the 20+ yrs I've paid out of my own pocket for the policy-  my company cancelled me day 1,  now my douche agent wants me to re-sign for 4 times my old premium-  thanks, Barry,  I'm enjoying me un-insured freedom,  won't be back until my expenses exceed my premium, thanks for making that possible!  

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:39 | 4158761 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

I hope your luck holds out. When hospitalized or treated in the ER, the uninsured can be charged a higher rate than the insured for the same services. If you have a decent job and any assets, it's difficult to negotiate any reduction in the charges after the fact. I don't think Obama intends for people like you or me to be able to game his system to our advantage. 

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 15:51 | 4158799 BigRedRider
BigRedRider's picture

The word on the street is that there is an HHS rep standing by at each ER in the country eagerly waiting to sign you up as soon as they drag your bloody body into the ER.  This will cover your hospital bills from that moment on. 


Laissez les bon temps roulez!

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 16:43 | 4158832 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

Really...100% coverage? I don't believe it.


edited to add:

I called Blue Cross, this is definitely bullshit. This website pretty well explains what I was told:

If you qualify for Medicaid, I believe your coverage can begin immediately, but according to what I read on Martin Armstrong's Blog, even Medicaid recipients can have their assets seized to cover the cost of their government subsidized health care.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:13 | 4159110 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Medicaid is a needs-based program.  Only those who are truely destitute can ever qualify for Medicaid.  Any assets transferred out of your name within 36 months of needing Medicaid's help to pay for health care will be clawed back.

To game the Medicaid system, one must transfer their assets - at least 36 months before needing Medicaid-assisted health care - to those they can trust to look after them.  If the assets are going to be transferred to a trust, the trust cannot be revocable, and the person applying for Medicaid cannot be the administrator of the trust.  Gaming Medicare is a guessing game, but it can be done.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 17:42 | 4159223 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

I know what Medicaid is, the issue is whether or not a person with income and assets can wait to purchase insurance until they are admitted to the ER or hospitalized. The answer is NO.

People who qualify for Medicaid can basically enroll at the time of admission, but that does not apply to the rest of us.


Fri, 11/15/2013 - 18:53 | 4159430 RichardP
RichardP's picture

People who qualify for Medicaid can basically enroll at the time of admission ...

Medicaid is a needs-based program.  One must demonstrate need in order to be admitted to Medicare.  Forms must be filled out.  Bank accounts must be examined.  Employment status (or lack thereof) must be verified.  How is all of this done at the ER at the time of admission?

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 19:32 | 4159520 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Maybe you missed this...

Medicaid Enrollment is Soaring with Obamacare

My wife works in insurance, she related how a young, strong male was qualified for Medicaid by the ObamaCare website based on his income.

So I guess he can just quit work now, lay off his two employees, apply for food stamps & rent vouchers, suck off the teet and watch while this whole thing swirls down the toilet.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 06:06 | 4160220 RichardP
RichardP's picture

I don't dispute that the ACA has expanded Medicaid in those states that have accepted the expansion (about half? the states have not accepted the expansion).

I was addressing the idea proposed above my post that one could sign up for Medicaid in the ER.  Perhaps one can pre-qualify for Medicaid if they have access to the ACA Website in the ER.  But there will be follow-up work done to verify income and property ownership.  If that follow-up shows that one does not actually qualify for Medicaid, Medicaid will not pay anything to the hospital for the ER visit.  The hospital will bill the patient.  But if the patient can't pay, the hospital eats the bill - just like they do now.

Your last paragraph defines exactly what is going to kill compassion.  I know too many people who are milking the system for all it is worth - just as you described.  Driving to the market in their Mercedes and paying for their groceries with foodstamps (confirmed personally).  How do we stop this kind of behavior all across the country?  Who has the money to fund the folks who would catch these guys and unravel their tangle of multiple names and SSNs and sham businesses that allow them to do this undetected?  I think it is a problem that is growing toward a critical mass, and about the only thing that will stop it is to cut off funds to everybody - which will truely hurt the folks who actually need the financial aid.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 10:06 | 4160332 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I don't know, I'm not a central planner but I'll give it a shot ;-)

"Governmental compassion" is bankrupting government and I think we would agree we certainly don't want to devolve into a society that rats out their neighbors either. They signed them up so they need less employees signing people up and more employees checking on the status of who they signed up.

Different activities.

Now we know what they will find, which leads to the prospect of a bureaucracy creating a smaller bureaucracy, which is against its interests. They have a vested interest in it growing, not shrinking (they work for it) so it impacts their job ultimately when it downsizes.

So it just about guarantees it has to implode first, its kinda like an alcoholic running a liqour store, he doesn't want to go out of business for more than just one

Admittedly, this is my perspective of the nature of government and people in general, so other opinions will vary.

Fri, 11/15/2013 - 21:20 | 4159704 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

According to what was posted at Martin Armstrong's Blog, Obama has done way with asset testing for Medicaid so if your income is low enough, you qualify. If you qualify for Medicaid, coverage can begin immediately according to the link above, without the time constraints and requirements of the Marketplace open enrollment.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 06:13 | 4160222 RichardP
RichardP's picture

I haven't read up on that part of the ACA, but I do know this:  Medicaid is a partnership with the states, and normally state law can superceed Federal law if the state law is more strict.  So I don't know if asset-testing is actually going to go away.  Also, the Supreme Court ruled that the Federal government could not force the states to accept the Medicaid part of the ACA - and about half(?) of the states have not accepted it.  So I think that any changes in means testing brought about by the ACA will not affect those states (but I do need to educate myself futher on the Medicaid part of the ACA.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 03:00 | 4160162 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

You really don't want to be "treated" by any doctor who would accept medicaid patients.  Competent docs with ability don't waste their valuable time at medicaid reinbursement rates and payment delays.  That's the truth.  You get what you pay for.  Many of my doctor collegues in their 50's are taking early retirement due to Obamacare.  I suggest an article showing how many doctors are retiring by state-would be most amusing and may scale nicely with the numbers of cancelled policies.  The best doctors are going into concierge service (cash only, tests done at cost, no unnecessary tests and procedures) if they have not already done so.  This the the way it has functioned for years in the EU and Canada.  Only private clinics offer top notch care.  Most people are too ignorant to know the difference. 

As in its other forms, insurance is a huge fraud and confidence game.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 06:15 | 4160224 RichardP
RichardP's picture

Retiring - or joining group practices or hospital staffs - where they get paid a salary regardless of the income of the people they see.

Sat, 11/16/2013 - 10:06 | 4160334 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

Thank the gods, I have good insurance and don't need or qualify for government subsidized health care. What started this conversation about Medicaid was the gentleman from Florida's contention that he can get by without insurance until the penalty for being uninsured exceeds his new Obamacare premium. Sure, anyone can do that, but if you are admitted into a hospital or ER without insurance, and you have what they judge to be the ability to pay, you are going to be responsible for the total charges. Not only are you responsible for the total charges, you will not get the lower rates for the same services that insurance companies negotiate for and pay to providers.

Another post suggested that "word on the street" is that HHS is signing people up as they are wheeled into the hospitals. If that were the case, there really would be NO incentive to purchase insurance before the moment one needs coverage. But as Blue Cross explained it to me, Obamacare marketplace enrollment is closest to Medicare enrollment where there are scheduled open enrollment periods and waits of at least two weeks before coverage can begin after the first premium is paid. There are no pre-existing conditions, but that won't help a person facing emergency surgery at the ER. They will be uninsured and get ass raped by the hospital and doctors.

The only possible truth to the rumor that people are being signed up for Obamacare at the hospitals appears to be Medicaid, but that won't help the the guy form Florida or most other middle class Americans who find themselves uninsured and in need of hospital care. 


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