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Senate Grills Bitcoins - Live Webcast

Tyler Durden's picture




 

"Beyond Silk Road: Potential Risks, Threats, and Promises of Virtual Currencies" is the title of today's Senate hearing (from Homeland Security) on th eperils of Bitcoin. We are sure the exaggeration and exasperation will run high as Government offers up its Financial Crimes (and missing and exploited children) directors, and the de-centralized unregulated crypto-currency faces them down...

 

Live Stream (via Senate)

 

 

Witnesses
Panel I

    Jennifer Shasky Calvery
    Director, Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
    U.S. Department of the Treasury

    Mythili Raman
    Acting Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division
    U.S. Department of Justice

    Edward W. Lowery III
    Special Agent in Charge, Criminal Investigative Division
    U.S. Secret Service, U.S. Department of Homeland Security

Panel II

    Ernie Allen
    President and Chief Executive Officer
    The International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children

    Patrick Murck
    General Counsel
    The Bitcoin Foundation, Inc.

    Jeremy Allaire
    Chief Executive Officer
    Circle Internet Financial, Inc.

    Jerry Brito
    Senior Research Fellow, The Mercatus Center
    George Mason University

 

The best "brief" summary of what is Bitcoin...

 

Here is coindesk.com's color on what to expect...

Given the title, it’s perhaps unsurprising that Silk Road features heavily in some testimony. In particular, Mythili Raman, acting assistant attorney general for the US Department of Justice’s Criminal Division, uses it in his prepared statement as an example of why regulation of decentralized currencies should be “sufficiently robust”.

Anonymity vs privacy

Silk Road, the online black marketplace taken down by FBI investigators in October, highlights “challenges investigators face when they encounter these systems, some of which may ultimately require additional legal or regulatory tools,” Raman said, singling out the difficulty of accessing customer records as one of the most significant challenges facing law enforcers dealing with virtual currencies.

Ernie Allen, president and CEO of the International Centre for Missing and Exploited Children, is also worried about anonymity in virtual currencies. In his testimony, he will voice his concerns over the use of virtual currencies including bitcoin for child pornography and sex trafficking payments.

“In our consultations with law enforcement worldwide, we have heard the argument that there is a difference between privacy and anonymity. Law enforcement leaders embrace the broadest possible privacy protections for individuals, but emphasize that absolute internet anonymity is a prescription for catastrophe,” he says. “Our challenge is to find the right balance.”

Other testimony challenged those concerns about anonymity, though. “Anonymity is also a two-way street,” says Patrick Murck, general counsel for the Bitcoin Foundation, in his prepared statement.

“A top dealer on Silk Road was actively working with federal law enforcement, the anonymity of Silk Road making it easier for them to make undercover drug deals and subsequent arrests,” he explains.

Murck also has some feedback for those that hold up Silk Road as an example of bitcoin’s dangers, cautioning against tying bitcoin and Silk Road too closely together. He cites the Genesis Block’s analysis of the contribution that Silk Road made to bitcoin pricing.

In late December 2010 and early 2011, people buying bitcoins to make Silk Road purchases may have spiked the price from $.30 up to $.80. The price was then boosted by mainstream media attention, before settling at around $5, he says. Further price spikes were unrelated to Silk Road, and even its takedown in October had little long-lasting effect.

“The less this colors public and policymaker assessments of Bitcoin, the better,” he argues in his testimony. “Criminals do turn the beneficial instruments of society to their ends. But overreacting to this simple and obvious fact because Bitcoin is exotic and new could delay Americans enjoyment of Bitcoin’s benefits, which are vastly greater than its potential costs.”

Decentralized vs centralized currencies

Jerry Brito, a senior research fellow at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University and director of its Technology Policy Program, testifies that a decentralized currency like bitcoin would in any case be less appealing to online crooks than a centralized digital currency, like Liberty Reserve, which was taken down after its founders were arrested.

While of growing concern, to date, virtual currencies have yet to overtake more traditional methods to move funds internationally.

“Serious criminals looking to hide their tracks are more likely to choose a centralized virtual currency run by an intermediary willing to lie to regulators for a fee, rather than a decentralized currency like bitcoin that, as a technical matter, must make a record of every transaction, even if pseudonymously,” Brito points out.

Brito compares centralized digital currency Liberty Reserve’s estimated $6bn in crime-related revenues to under $200m in drug sales via Silk Road. He adjusts the Silk Road revenues down from the oft-quoted $1bn figure to reflect bitcoin value over the entire period.

At least one regulator seems sympathetic. FinCEN director Jennifer Shasky Calvery points out in her testimony that virtual currencies have yet to overtake more traditional methods to move funds internationally, whether for legitimate or criminal purposes.

“Any financial institution could be exploited for money laundering purposes,” she points out, adding, “While of growing concern, to date, virtual currencies have yet to overtake more traditional methods to move funds internationally, whether for legitimate or criminal purposes.”

Inter-departmental collaboration

FinCEN itself is hard at work, and several FinCEN virtual currency experts gave a comprehensive presentation on the topic to an audience of Federal and state bank examiners at an FFIEC Payment Systems Risk Conference, Calvery says, adding that the agency also works with the FBI, with the Treasury Cyber Working Group, and “a community of other financial intelligence units”.

This inter-departmental collaboration is an important strut of the government’s approach to law enforcement in virtual currency, says Raman, especially in the context of the Government’s Strategy to Combat Transnational Organized Crime. The Department of Justice works closely with FinCEN and the State Department, and it was this relationship that enabled the co-ordinated targeting of Liberty Reserve, he says, adding:

“Such coordinated actions are integral tools in combating illicit finance. Investigations into illicit virtual currency businesses therefore often require considerable cooperation from international partners.”

He highlighted the fact that the Liberty Reserve takedown involved co-operation between 17 countries.

The Foundation is eager to talk up its relationship with regulators, even if Murck finds “details on which we might quibble,” such as the Foundation’s desire for a notice-and-comment process before FinCEN issued its new virtual currency guidance in March. However, the Foundation has found federal regulators welcoming on the whole, he says.

Harsh words for state regulators

He reserved harsh words for regulators at the state level, however, particularly calling out “one state regulator”, which he said issued 22 subpoenas to bitcoin-related businesses, and made TV statements about “narcoterrorism”. He’s referring to New York’s Department of Financial Services, who made that statement on the air.

“Irresponsible public statements like these make it more likely that legitimate bitcoin businesses will relocate to more welcoming countries,” Murck said.

However, he added that he saw positive signs among both state regulators and banking executives, indicating that greater understanding is coming.

Calvery echoed Murck’s conciliatory overtones, talking about an outreach effort to court the bitcoin community. FinCEN met with the Bitcoin Foundation in late August, and has invited it to present to a Congressionally-chartered forum, the Bank Secrecy Act Advisory Group (BSAAG) scheduled for mid-December.

Jeremy Allaire, founder of merchant payment services firm Circle Internet Financial, which recently received $9m in funding, also wants a collaborative approach to regulation. He identifies several dangers for an unregulated bitcoin community in his testimony, including tax dodging, fraud, and terrorism. Illiquidity and volatility are two other dangers, he warned, predicting wild price fluctuation if central banks and institutional investors are not able to act as market-makers in bitcoin.

“I believe we are at the forefront of another twenty year journey of Internet-led transformation, this time in our global financial systems, and the opportunity is to foster that economic change while simultaneously putting in place the safeguards that only government can enable,” he says.

 

 

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Mon, 11/18/2013 - 15:57 | 4166325 observer007
observer007's picture

High 675!

 

Reatime quotes:

http://btcpost.net/index.php

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:05 | 4166348 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

fiatleak.com update, 2:45 PM - 3:00 PM (US ET)

figures approximate:

Total BTC bougt at exchanges: 1020 BTC

US total: 613 (first time I have seen USA > China)

China total: 386

LARGEST BTC transaction: 52 

Prices vary, even in USD, approx. average price: $600 / BTC

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:06 | 4166371 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Dedicated to all you boot-licking fake libertarians who are having no fun watching the rise of the mighty Bitcoin!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCRnFUVcsog

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:14 | 4166408 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

So that's 4 of 6 obviously completely biased against bitcoin.

I expected more, tbh.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:37 | 4166528 pipes
pipes's picture

about the same ratio of ZH posters...just goes to show

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:49 | 4166586 outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture

Looks like it will just be "absorbed" into the existing fiat/paypal digital transfer money world. In essence, one day you will sit there and say, "why bother"...imo

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:51 | 4166604 fonestar
fonestar's picture

...yeah good luck with that ROFL!!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:27 | 4166775 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

fone.... you had your tail between your legs last time it crashed.  Now you're just down right annoying with your polyanna comments only because it is bubbling up.  You chime in on no other thread other than Bitcoin, but when it crashes, you're gone.  Obsessive compulsive much?

If you think the US govvy is going to let an alternative currency prevail, without war and trade embargos, you're a bit of an idiot.

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:29 | 4166811 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Uh, when did I ever hide out?  I've been buying roughly the same amount for over two years now.  I had to sell a few BTC around $130 to pay some debts but other than that I've been in this like a dirty shirt the whole time.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:43 | 4166825 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

So you sold at 130 and bought (as I read yesterday from you) at 500?  Hmmm....

I knew a few investors like you.  They came to their senses only after they were completely wiped out, because they couldn't differentiate between everyday market gambling and chasing something clearly in a log (parabolic) uptrend.

Bitcoin may last.  But I predict you won't.

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:44 | 4166874 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Why would I dump all by BTC?  I would never do that.  Read the damn post!  I sold some BTC at $130 and I was back in at $200.  It wasn't because I wanted to.  I was forced to sell some 40% junk silver over a year ago too, big deal.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:20 | 4167041 MillionDollarBogus_
MillionDollarBogus_'s picture

According to a study of 775 fiat currencies by DollarDaze.org, there is no historical precedence for a fiat currency that has succeeded in holding its value. Twenty percent failed through hyperinflation, 21% were destroyed by war, 12% destroyed by independence, 24% were monetarily reformed, and 23% are still in circulation approaching one of the other outcomes.

 The average life expectancy for a fiat currency is 27 years, with the shortest life span being one month. Founded in 1694, the British pound Sterling is the oldest fiat currency in existence. At a ripe old age of 317 years it must be considered a highly successful fiat currency. However, success is relative. The British pound was defined as 12 ounces of silver, so it's worth less than 1/200 or 0.5% of its original value.

In other words, the most successful long standing currency in existence has lost 99.5% of its value. Given the undeniable track record of currencies, it is clear that on a long enough timeline the survival rate of all fiat currencies drops to zero.

Chris Mack

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:26 | 4167065 akak
akak's picture

I think it should be noted that the British ounce (pound) has only been a fiat currency since World War I --- before that, it was backed by either gold or silver.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:05 | 4167263 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Sorry to confuse you with the facts...but...

 

"The gold standard was suspended at the outbreak of the war in 1914, with Bank of England and Treasury notes becoming legal tender. Prior to World War I, the United Kingdom had one of the world's strongest economies, holding 40% of the world's overseas investments. However, by the end of the war the country owed £850 million (£35.1 billion as of 2013),[26] mostly to the United States, with interest costing the country some 40% of all government spending. In an attempt to resume stability, a variation on the gold standard was reintroduced in 1925, under which the currency was fixed to gold at its pre-war peg, although people were only able to exchange their currency for gold bullion, rather than for coins.

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_sterling

 

You ought to read the History.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:36 | 4167636 akak
akak's picture

Tall Tom, I am and was well aware of Britain's brief (quasi-)return to the gold standard in 1925, but for the sake of brevity and clarity, I decided to ignore that brief interlude.  You are technically correct, of course, but the broader point still stands: the British pound has NOT been a purely fiat currency for over 300 years.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:24 | 4167054 resurger
resurger's picture

WERD!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:47 | 4167107 chemystical
chemystical's picture

 

Yes, and moreover a search of the Net will show you that he/she/it does the same shilling on at least 4 other websites.

Pros:

  • Supposedly it's a cryptocurrency, but 1) it's crypto as far as you believe, and 2) the same thing can be said about gold, my navel lint, and fiats (unless you're transacting high amounts of fiat that trigger reporting).
  • Unlike my navel lint (so far at least) it can be used to conduct transactions at a distance.  Kinda like VISA?
  • So the real pro there is a combination of distance and presumed crypto
  • It pokes a finger in the eyes of Central Banks.  Thumbs up, but also the very thing that will prevent it from ever being a worthwhile threat

Cons:

  • transactions can be taxed.  consumption can be taxed.  property can be taxed.  each of those is detectable to varying degrees, but the impetus for the tax collectors to escalate their detection methods is commensurate with the perception that we are evading them.  For 90% of taxpayers in my state the individual income tax process asks you whether you bought anything over the internet without paying sales tax on it.  Compliance there is about 0.001%, hence the current push (and inevitable success) in Congress to monitor and tax those transactions.
  • BTC could be outlawed.  Naysayers herein have commented that this has been tried unsuccesfully with illegal drugs.  Define success.  Eradicated?  No.  Curtailed?  Yes, because the last time I checked we had prisons full of people there for that very offense, and we also have far more paying fines (in fiat)
  • The barrier to entry for competing identical cryptocurrencies is about nil.  BTC relies solely on hype and early adoption.  Beta may have fallen to VHS and for similar reasons, and Netscape Navigator may have fallen to Explorer, but if you could trade Beta for an auto or for McD's then it would have been around as long as VHS.  Gates used a near monopoly to force the use of Explorer;  what near monopoly do BTC's backers have?
  • The TPB won't take this sitting down.  If it becomes too big of a threat they will regulate it.  Don't hand me bit torrent as the escape device.  That too can be criminalized.  Uncle Sam has been itching to regulate the Net.  BTC might help to usher in the very thing that its supporters are putatively against.

Just my BTC 0.02

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:47 | 4167181 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I have been a general nuisance and mocking people who doubted Bitcoin's potential on:

 

maxkeiser.com

sgtreport.com

cnbc.com

zerohedge.com

silverdoctors.com

abovetopsecret.com

youtube.com

godlikeproductions.com

cbc.ca

 

 

.......and more.

 

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:50 | 4167197 akak
akak's picture

You might want to consider getting a real life instead.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:06 | 4167265 fonestar
fonestar's picture

No thanks.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:45 | 4167447 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Hey, don't get me wrong.  I applaud the effort, but full disclosure helps.

Let me know the next thing your paymasters are touting.  I'm in.  No, wait, let me know the timing too.  No, wait, if you're a shill, then you'd have hooked me into buying at what might be the top of the pyramid with no "bigger idiot" in sight.  Damn it anyway.

Note that I didn't bother searching the Net for your shillings.  We might be sympatico because I found your posts at other sites I visit.  otoh, because your postings at them are monotone in content, I'll go with the shill hypothesis. 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:04 | 4167517 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Sorry to disappoint you but there's no conspiracy here.  Bitcoin does not have any salesmen or shills.  The smart people out there are going to play this for the deflationary black hole that it is.  If the dummies want to watch from the sidelines scratching their heads that is fine by me.

Like I said before, I just like being right.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:27 | 4166798 fonestar
fonestar's picture

All I am getting from this webcast so far is a bunch of suits in a wax museum (who probably couldn't set up a home wifi router) talk about regulating the most sophisticated currency on Earth.

Hey, let me know once they can properly describe Bitcoin okay?  It should be $100,000 by that time LOLOLOLOLOL.

Keep the Lulz coming!!!!!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:39 | 4166851 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

oh, they are "very, very concerned" blah blah blah

it's just a load of statists giving reasons why bitcoin is a terrible, terrible idea.

seriously, it's a fucking waste of time listening to this. it's completely scripted, and as is the outcome.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:46 | 4166879 fonestar
fonestar's picture

This Bitcoin Foundation guy is pissing me off.  Looks like one of those dial-a-nerd guys.

I want Cody Wilson!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:51 | 4166904 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

Yeah.  Bitcoin better watch out or it's gonna get the HSBC treatment.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:08 | 4166982 fonestar
fonestar's picture

This is great actually, because the logical conclusion of this debate is that we have total freedom or total control.

The "price" of Bitcoin means nothing to me.  I want total freedom.  Free as in beer, but also freedom to do what I want.  I do not want 86% freedom.  I do not want 96.4% freedom.  I will settle for nothing less than pure 100% distilled freedom.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:18 | 4167027 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

You'd be better off (when the cord is cut) with a still, then.

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:22 | 4167047 CH1
CH1's picture

The "price" of Bitcoin means nothing to me.  I want total freedom.

Well said, Fonestar. Thank you.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:48 | 4167182 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Yeah right, the freedom for me to walk on your lawn, to take your car when I choose and to help myself to your goods when it suits me.

100% freedom. Fucking deluded.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:01 | 4167235 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Freedom, responsibility, morals, laws and non-aggression principle are all seperate issues.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:32 | 4167618 CH1
CH1's picture

the freedom for me to walk on your lawn, to take your car when I choose and to help myself to your goods when it suits me.

Ah, so you're going into government work?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:53 | 4167210 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"The "price" of Bitcoin means nothing to me."

COMPLETE BULLSHIT.  Your posts are a mixture of both, but you RARELY lose sight of commenting about price (pat present and future)

Tell me that you're a freedom fighter and are fighting purely to preserve your principles of freedom, and that's a-ok with me, but when you spend the MAJORITY of your "ink" telling us about price and your investments, well then you can go fuck your hypocritical and lying self.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:02 | 4167244 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Thanks, but it is you that can go fuck yourself.

In the interim period "price" can tell us who is winning.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:29 | 4167371 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

lmao

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:52 | 4167474 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Wait, so you are concerned with price?  You previously posted that it didn't concern you.

Do you moonlight as Obama's speechwriter or Jay Carney's? 

From each of the tourstops: "You can keep your BTC if you want to"

After the crash:  "I never said that you can keep your BTC"

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:08 | 4167535 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I care more about principles than price.  If you say you support freedom and then go and accept fiat knowing there are alternatives then you are a hypocrite.  Price does show which way the money is flowing and who is winning the war and that relates to principles and values.  So yes, I care about price but primarily as an indicator.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:39 | 4167646 Blano
Blano's picture

If price is the only factor, why aren't you in stocks then?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:39 | 4167033 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

I'm not going to listen either, because it will melt my brain, but maybe they won't try to stomp it like Stalin.  Not yet.  Some people, including the DoJ and the Fed, supposedly aren't pushing to regulate?  WTF?  Bad news if true; it would mean we are being played.  The best news would probably also be the most likely outcome:  Yet another scripted, knee-jerk, dysfunctional and ultimately futile "war", all to protect the children. 

The surprisingly positive article is here:  http://venturebeat.com/2013/11/18/as-bitcoin-prices-surge-past-600-a-new...

Disclaimer:  It's fucking BusinessWeek.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:58 | 4166928 akak
akak's picture

"most sophisticated" = least tangible + least proven + least transparent + most fragile

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:01 | 4166948 fonestar
fonestar's picture

And you would know that how?  Background?  Experience?  Reference?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:07 | 4166969 akak
akak's picture

Your cultlike shilling for bitcoin here is really getting annoying.

What I said was not necessarily an indictment of Bitcoin, merely fact.

The average man on the street can instinctively understand the holding of gold and silver, and their (former, for now) role as money, whereas I highly doubt the average person (outside of the technogeek brigade, and maybe not even then) will EVER fundamentally understand Bitcoin, which apparently takes at least a PhD in computer science for one to fully grasp.  That alone makes me skeptical of its widespread adoption.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:15 | 4167001 fonestar
fonestar's picture

If the "man on the street" does not understand virtualization technologies or Bitcoin that is fine by me.  If we had to rely on that guy we wouldn't have made it this far anyway.  Technology melds in my mind with mertiocracy and puritanical views on "kill or be killed" capitalism.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:27 | 4167073 yrat
yrat's picture

exactly.  the average sheep on the street has no clue how his/her magic credit card works either, but that doesn't stop them from being used.  how exactly is this an argument against bitcoin?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:55 | 4167480 sleigher
sleigher's picture

The that end most people on the street don't understand fractional reserve banking or the fed or any of it.  But I guess that is forced on them so it doesn't matter...

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:14 | 4167008 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

I like how you accuse him of "cultlike shilling", and then go on to do the same with gold and silver.

No, it doesn't "take a PhD to understand" bitcoin, just as it doesn't require a greatly detailed understanding of the internal combustible engine in order to drive a car.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:15 | 4167017 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Because remember.... you need to buy silver OR Bitcoin.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:17 | 4167023 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Yep, one couldn't possibly sit on <gasp> multiple asset classes at the same time.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:37 | 4167117 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Disclosure:  I also own thousands of dollars worth of nickels and copper cents too.  I bet that's a real mind f*c& eh?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:44 | 4167162 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

I sit with stock in a company which hasn't yet floated, but is widely rumoured to do so in 2014. Now please guide me with your expert advice - since I can't hold multiple asset classes at the same time, and since I can't hold it in my hand - should I sell the shares on eBay for a fiver?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:43 | 4167665 aerojet
aerojet's picture

I actually have a PhD in CS and I am incredibly skeptical about Bitcoin.  I think it is mainly a clever scam designed to ensnare otherwise intelligent people.  The essence of a good scam is that in the beginning, the scammer has the dream and the mark has the money.  But in the end, it is the mark holding the dream and the scammer has their money.  Bitcoin is profoundly hypnotic to the generation that is paying for everything using plastic cards, buying in-game purchases online (basically, that's a scam, too--money for nothin', but no chicks for free, apparently), and using social media to manage their online personas which may or may not bear any resemblance to their real-world personas.  Look, it's not your fault, okay?  It is really easy to fall into a trap because you want to believe.  Hell, I was a crypto-anarchist, cyberpunk, and all that before it was mainstream, and it's so freaking cool, okay?  You want more than your little existence, I get that--we were promised we would be rock stars and movie stars, and when we find out it isn't the case, we get very, very pissed off (thanks, Chuck).  The problem is, the bits aren't real, they aren't tangible.  Ephemera defines cyberspace, technology laughs at humans wanting to "create wealth."  

Every existing crypto system in the world could be wiped out in a single technological advance.  If that happens, you will be fucked.  

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:18 | 4167328 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Laws of Thermodynamics...Entropy.

 

The Laws are Universal.

 

Exponential Growth leads to Exponential Collapse in any Natural System with limited resources.

 

Can QE be fueling at Bitcoin Bubble? It is the primary reason that Bitcoin has any success.

 

This is a Logarithmic Increase in Price compared to USD. This is unsustainable.

 

Hope that it works out well for you.

 

But my hopes do not negate the Reality. Enjoy the ride up...Watch out for that damned Double Top and abandon it when you see the formation. Otherwise you will be disappointed by the collapse.

 

That is how I know it and will not buy into this now.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:22 | 4167045 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

least tangible

it's no more or less tangible than many other asset classes, as well as intellectual property

least proven

yeah possibly. it's technology still in its relative cradle.

least transparent

every transaction ever is recorded, for anyone to see. exactly how is that opaque?

most fragile

Fregile, exactly how? "OMG EMP" hyperbole again?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:36 | 4167096 akak
akak's picture

 

Fragile, exactly how? "OMG EMP" hyperbole again?

Yes, EMP is not only a very real, but an INEVITABLE threat to mankind's ever-growing reliance on electronic technology, but it goes far beyond that.

Bitcoin use is inherently tied to the internet and a computerized network, as it has no tangibility whatsoever outside of those systems.  You 20-something technogeeks seem to just ASSUME that the internet and those computerized systems will ALWAYS and forevermore be up and running in all places, at all times, but those with a realistic, broader historical perspective can only shake their heads at your blinkered naivete.  The more complex a system, the more fragile it is.  I believe, in fact, that that principle will prove the ultimate doom of the human race, as we continue to rely on ever-more fragile systems to underpin our increasingly fragile world civilization.

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:39 | 4167135 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

I'm not a "20-something technogeek", and I assume nothing. I do however know that the entirely world relies on electricity as well as the internet these days - take either of these away, and we're all in deep trouble. Supply chains, for starters, will be severely disrupted. You think Wal-Mart can just "undo" 30 years of technological progress and go back to using telephones to supply their stores? Not a fucking chance.

But some people - knowing fuck all about technology, and assuming all sorts of alien technology created by the Gods at the NSA can perform all sorts of mathematically impossible things - keep being wrong on the internet. They can't explain how in coherent logic, but instead present all sorts of hyperbole as "very real threats" - ignoring all statistics on the matter prove them absolutely smashingly wrong.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:56 | 4167223 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Phillipines. What use is bitcoin to a Filipino today?

All sorts of hyperbole? I think not. Very real threat? Go ask a Filipino. I'm sure he/she will feel great knowing the networks should be up in another 6 days or so. In the meantime...

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:20 | 4167335 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

The bitcoin black market in Manila is going nuts!  Be sure to bring at least a virtual knife, however.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:24 | 4167346 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

I don't recall having seen any news in regards to EMP strikes in the Philippines.

I'm not sure what you think that proves. The supply chain is impacted, regular banking system has received a knock, and it's not exactly as if you can just trivially send an oz or two of Krugerrands to help them out with their efforts - no, you'd probably have to use a conventional banking system for that one. Mobile phones, I believe, are being restored early on, and as soon as they're back up and running, so will bitcoin be. That will still happen much, much earlier than your hypothetical (and non-confiscated or "disappeared") Krugerrand would arrive.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 22:40 | 4168121 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

EMP in the Philippines? You do come out with some horseshit you do.

Let me know when the phones are on again won't you, till then I might have to swap my gold ring. But then that's why its always been money isn't it, because we don't need a bank or a phone to make use of it in a very real crisis?

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 05:21 | 4168805 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

No, not really. That's what my discussion with Akak was about. But hey, so much for comprehension.

As for the rest of your masturbatory fantasies, if you could keep those in private, thank you. Especially seeing how you don't essentially address ANY points outside of your own preconceived world view, whatsoever.

"I might have to swap my gold ring", well, that's just terribly clever, isn't it? A large part of the cost of a ring is in the craftsmanship, so unless you find someone valuing your ring for the work which has gone into it - which seems highly unlikely - you've instantly devalued your trade substantially. That's why people buy bars and coins.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:10 | 4167294 chemystical
chemystical's picture

I don't recall anyone talking about taking away the Internet.  Enveloping it even further into the surveillance state, however, is a very different matter.  It's a regulator's wet dream, and the more successful BTC is the more likely our nightmare moves from dream to reality.

Brazil and Narnia might talk about creating their own Internets, but accessing them remotely might be a challenge to those behind the wall. 

Freedom of the press is free was free only to those who own presses.  You already hear Capital Hill wonks talking about defining and regulating exactly who a reporter is.  Hmm, what caused that stir.  Oh, wait it was the Internet and the bloogers challenge to the captive State Press.  What's in store when a challenge to fiat emerges?

Was bittorrent mentioned in the Bill Of Rights?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:19 | 4167330 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Are you kidding? You must be new here. "Taking away the internet" is one of those arguments which are continuously repeated in bitcoin discussions.

And they try to block internet access in China, Australia, and lots of other countries, though not terribly successfully. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:05 | 4167521 chemystical
chemystical's picture

China is and was reasonably succesful at that, and where they failed they co-opted Google & Co to employ different protocols in China. 

Central banks have far more impetus and far more will and can find far more ways.  Will "we" find opposite reactions to their actions?  Yes.  Will they fund our efforts in the same way that we are forced to fund theirs?  No.

I have a challenge to those of you who maintain that they have measures to remain anonymous on the Net: the next time Obama visits your town, use your measures to tell the Secret Service that you're planning to assassinate him and ass-rape his kids.  Then let us know how the weather is in "Guantanamo".

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:50 | 4167687 aerojet
aerojet's picture

You don't have to take it away.  All you need is a single, profound, technological advance and the world is forever changed and these assumptions may no longer hold.  This is the history of humankind and technology.  You can't depend on anything remaining the same, nothing at all.  Not dollars, Francs, gold and silver coins, or the digital currency scam.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:02 | 4167241 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"every transaction ever is recorded, for anyone to see"

full disclosure please.  If what you said was true then your understanding of crypto differs from mine.  Which aspects of which transactions are visible to all? 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:16 | 4167320 EscapeKey
Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:46 | 4167445 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

No Bitcoin user should have to trust any other user or some centralized payment processor.  I use the payer's public key to verify that a payment sent was properly signed by their private key and the blockchain proves that they owned the coins in the first place.  A trustless decentralized system.  The government is looking to attach all sorts of meta-data to this process while I and others are looking to thwart their efforts.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:52 | 4167694 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Wait til the HFT crowd gets involved!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:53 | 4166609 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Sell!!  Wait, Buy!!!!!  Wait, how many Bitcoins are in an ounce?  Er, how much Bitcoin is in an ounce of........  is there any copper in it?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:06 | 4166680 fonestar
fonestar's picture

You were expecting a trip back to Mayberry and instead this guy calling himself "fonestar" shows up and tells you it's not happening. 

Yeah, I'd be pissed too.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:10 | 4166705 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

It's fun to wind up the Bitmonkey, look at him go!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:11 | 4166714 fonestar
fonestar's picture

....not as much fun as watching the currency your society uses hyperinflate!  

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:19 | 4166758 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

So you enjoy the misery of others, charming!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:21 | 4166771 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Haha you talk about ending the Fed and shit until something comes along that will end the Fed.  Pussies!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:45 | 4166876 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

OK, that's a halfway fair point, but you really need to switch to decaf.

If you're makin' money I'd recommend you shut up about it and just keep doing it.

(In at 49-and-change early this year, as I posted openly about it multiple times, but not makin' a big stink over it)

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:51 | 4166908 fonestar
fonestar's picture

"OK, that's a halfway fair point, but you really need to switch to decaf."

No way!!  This run is making me want some triple espresso shooters laced with amphetamine!!  I am foneholio!!!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:47 | 4166888 superflex
superflex's picture

Trollolololol

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:50 | 4166900 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

You?  Who is this "you" you speak of?  Libertarians? Us?  Do you think you know us by our ZH posts?  If you really knew us, you'd know that we were delegates for Ron Paul in '08 and were begging people to open their eyes and see that Barry was The Destroyer.  In which soon-to-be police state country do you reside?  Until you stop sounding like a hysterical Bitcheerleader, you will be treated as such.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:58 | 4166935 fonestar
fonestar's picture

...yeah and your type would put in place another gold standard (run of course by your friends at the house of Rothschild) so it could just lapse back into another fiat standard and your grandkids can do it all over again every hundred years or so.

Glad we could come and help sort that out for 'ya buds!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:01 | 4166636 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I saw Axel Merk on CNBC before. He, like Schiff is a gold guy. Merk Was very anti bitcoin, as was Schiff last I saw him.

It irritates me that these guys who have been totally anti-fed and pro gold won't throw all their weight behind bitcoin. I mean if they are totally for ending king dollar who gives a rats ass what alternate medium of exchange pulls it off? I actually feel fairly confident that gold would be a good compliment for bitcoin and that there is a place for both. 

But to see the gold guys bashing bitcoin hard like this just because it it grabbing the recent headlines smells funny.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:08 | 4166697 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Because bitcoin is a fiat currency also.

It's not because you made a few hundred bucks that they should start telling lies. I'd unsubscribe like it did with the Sgtreport for selling out.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:12 | 4166716 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

If Iran accepts bitcoin for oil and people in China start selling and locking in massive gains in bitcoin and adding to their phyz and local small business's accept bitcoin then to me it seems like a tradeoff I would be comfortable with, if only to see the massive response from the gubbamint. 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:51 | 4166905 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

And more specifically WHICH governments have that massive response.  A few have already thrown down and made it outright illegal to buy, own, sell or transact any business (including running an exchange) in BitCoin.  I expect the US will be one of those countries in the future, but only if the banks and government can't figure out a way to corrupt and control it (like they have the price of gold).

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:53 | 4167476 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Uhhhhh, which governments have done that, NoDebt? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264330.0

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:55 | 4167704 aerojet
aerojet's picture

A war will break out, first.  Anyways, you folks are putting far too much faith in crypto.  You need to pay attention to how the NSA has rigged the game.  

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:15 | 4166734 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Look up "fiat".

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:05 | 4166959 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Can you believe that Sudden Debt? Oh my! Radical Euro, with his cap locks and such.

Over.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:21 | 4166768 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I know English isn't your first language, but surely you know what "fiat" means?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:41 | 4167140 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

it means a lot of things in a lot of different languages :)

But by fiat I mean a currency backed by nothing. And don't try to sell me the bitcoin salespitch. It's the worst ever.
Bitcoins are linked to lindner dollars... which started in Second Life....

so excuse me but I think it's garbage :)

Look at it like this, we'll never agree on this part about bitcoins so why discuss it any longer. Next topic!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:09 | 4167288 Saro
Saro's picture

"But by fiat I mean a currency backed by nothing"

What is gold backed by?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:56 | 4167485 MillionDollarBogus_
MillionDollarBogus_'s picture

Gold is backed by history.

The ancient Greeks used it for $$.

Bitcoin is backed by the internet - digital ones and zeros.

Good luck with that.

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:46 | 4167671 chemystical
chemystical's picture

It's also backed by utility.  

I've read some of the BTC pumpers write, "...and don't give me that crap about utility".  Why not?  Let them eat BTC?  Gold's not very edible but it can be made into some useful things.  PM's in general, in fact,  are required (for now) for the very network that BTC travels on.  And gold can be made into those things whether or not I believe in it. 

btw not a gold bug but I do have some of the portfolio in it as well as silver (and lead and rental property and a bit of farmland and, gasp, paper currency)

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 01:55 | 4168638 Saro
Saro's picture

"Gold is backed by history."

I can trade my gold in for history?  What units does history come in, and how hard is it to stack?

(That's like saying the USD is backed by "the full faith and credit of the US government".  It's meaningless sophistry that says nothing about the soundness of the money.)

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:17 | 4166747 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Because once they see Bitcoin is the weapon that wins the war, they know shit is real and turn into a bunch of pussies.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:18 | 4166753 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Well, Schiff has a business selling physical gold. So there's bit of an invested interest in "not getting it".

Not sure about Axel Meck, but tbh, most of those hedge fund guys are essentially just talking their book. CNBC is one, long infomercial.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:20 | 4166763 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Sure, agreed...but I think it would actually help Schiff etc. cause if they embraced it for the reasons that they at least party agree with.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:54 | 4166920 kito
kito's picture

perhaps schiff likes the dollar if it were only backed by what he sells? my thought is perhaps schiff doesnt want the dollar to go away, he just wants it anchored by gold (big profits for him)  bitcoin definitely doesnt help him or anyone else holding gold. the more bitcoin catches on, the more "relic-y" gold looks?? if bitcoin offers the same checks and balances as gold, why not have something more liquid such as bitcoin in the digital era?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:06 | 4166974 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I could see a scenario where people save in gold and transact business in bitcoin. 

I want physical possession of my "money". I would be willing to convert to bitcoin somehow in order to buy or sell something"

wht not a gold backed bitcoin? A true physical real asse that backs a currency that is also limited in supply....kinda like the dollar used to be/

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:38 | 4167130 kito
kito's picture

i cant see that scenario. i dont see any of the facebook twitter laced ipod toting younger generation giving a crap about gold, but defintiely digital money. if the world doesnt get slammed by a cataclysm, i dont think the younger generations will have any interest in anything but what passes through the internet. 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:05 | 4167261 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

That may be true. 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:07 | 4167512 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

I'm not a youngin' but do rock facebook on my ipod.  I sold gold at the top last year and very much interested to get back in below $1100.  I think an informal gold to BTC peg will emerge.  You probably don't want to know where I think that peg will be..   Leaving gold off to one side, what I see is a struggle between fiat and BTC. Gold is not capabable of fighting the way BTC does, so has to sit this one out.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:48 | 4167460 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

53 out of 66 now!!! http://freebitco.in/?r=25727 is giving out free bitcoins if interested. They just reduced the hourly payout, but it's still better than nothing. 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:16 | 4166411 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

 

 

@fonestar

I'm sure you like tulips also.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:19 | 4166434 Lets_Eat_Ben
Lets_Eat_Ben's picture

Almost nothing is more of a threat to the established order than real, free, asset-based money.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:15 | 4166736 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Where is it ? What asset base does BTC have.

Unfortunately BTC is prolly being manipulated up right now by those same

people that hold PM's down.They can pay with created fiat to drive its price up,then

walk away, causing a crash.Not quite as good as shorting it, but it will do in a pinch.

Discredit and destroy is the game.Their game.These wild swings are working just fine

for TPTB..

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:19 | 4166759 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Good for them!  I'd love to grab some more BTC in the $200 - $300 level!

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 02:30 | 4166971 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Hold the fone', haven't you been maintaining with great, prolific vehemence that it's cornerstone feature is that it is 'impossible' to manipulate/control?

Now, by your own admission above, that lynchpin can be pulled.

'Buy with unlimited (for the issuers) fiat until you wish to take it down' sounds like a viable MO to me.

So which is it? Immune or not?


Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:15 | 4167014 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

I'll be there with ya Fone!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:55 | 4166911 Trampy
Trampy's picture

Unfortunately BTC is prolly being manipulated up right now by those same people that hold PM's down.They can pay with created fiat to drive its price up, then walk away, causing a crash.  Not quite as good as shorting it, but it will do in a pinch.

Anyone who drives up the price of something by buying a lot of it can then turn around and drive down the price by selling what they had bought to drive up the price.  BUYING -> UP; SELLING -> DOWN.

There's nothing illegal or even slightly nefarious about doing so ... unless their market power is so large as to allow them to control prices like a yo-yo, if there are no limits on position size.

If JPM and GSCO collude to move a market together, then that would be clearly illegal RICO price fixing.

Since BTC ownership is anonymous, the recent rise in BTC could be accumulation by institutional investors.  While some of them might think they could knock down the price at will, it might not work out the way they expect because others might be buying it for long-term appreciation.  Jesse Livermore was famous for being able to control markets but he died broke.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:17 | 4167010 Lets_Eat_Ben
Lets_Eat_Ben's picture

Bitcoins value is in its' scarcity and security and fungibility and anonymity and it not being under the control of the Jews yet, I think.

 

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:26 | 4167600 kito
kito's picture

Francis told me Jews own everything

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 20:58 | 4167719 aerojet
aerojet's picture

How is some impossibly big integer an asset, exactly?  

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:15 | 4166414 SWCroaker
SWCroaker's picture

Dude, Libertarians reseve the right to think for themselves.  That's the point.  A "fake" Libertarian would be one that wants others to agree with *his* party line.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:24 | 4166464 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Not sure how parrotting the same, tired old lines equates to "thinking for themselves" - especially when people don't even know jack shit about the underlying technology, but despite this still parade their ignorance about in public.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:40 | 4166547 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

We get it. It's great technology. Why are you endlessly beating this drum about "ignorance" on Bitcoin?

It sure as hell doesn't mean the DHS, FBI, IRS, and other assorted gov't thugs and agencies won't be coming after Bitcoin holders and users (if they can). It's a real and possible risk for Americans anyway. Most PM's holders know this already and have seen the gov't action the last two or three years to crush gold and silver prices.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:51 | 4166577 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

That is a completely new and unique point.

No, wait - it isn't.

The RIAA ceased suing individuals because it's a loss-making strategy. The yield on sending grunts in to extract wealth from individuals is in a word - terrible.

And that is obviously on the assumption that they CAN track down the individual in question (and resides in the US).

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:54 | 4166620 fonestar
fonestar's picture

This is a power play by the holders of Bitcoin.  TPTB are fucked and it's becoming apparent to the rest of the world.  From my side of the fence, their fiat is hyper-inflating at a frightening pace.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:35 | 4166836 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

"From my side of the fence, their fiat is hyper-inflating at a frightening pace."

 

Inflating against what, phonystar? One cloud of fairy dust is getting bigger than the other. 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:57 | 4166634 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I don't know Escape, (and I hope you're right) but listening to these assholes doesn't fill me with confidence on where they want to go with this. Pretty clear they are already comparing Bitcoin users to money laundering schemes, tax evading and drug running operations.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:04 | 4166667 pods
pods's picture

So the CIA?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:04 | 4166668 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

They always would be. They don't get a cut. They don't like that.

Quick, WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:59 | 4166616 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

 

 

Bay of Pigs   "It sure as hell doesn't mean the DHS, FBI, IRS, and other assorted gov't thugs and agencies won't be coming after Bitcoin holders and users"

---------------------

Yep, just wait until NSA, DHS, FBI, IRS, etc start branding...

BitCoin users to terrorists...

Don't believe it?

Please note the ZH article just a few hours ago on the supposed...

$75,000 BitCoin-Bounty for Bernanke's assasination.

And so it begins...

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:54 | 4166917 superflex
superflex's picture

DHS, NSA, FBI have got nothing on the MSM.

The iSheeple eat that shit up like it's candy.  

Once the networks start running stories on the nightly news about the evil in BTC, it's over.  Damage done.

Dont believe me.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:25 | 4167060 Lets_Eat_Ben
Lets_Eat_Ben's picture

The propaganda machine is on full-blast at the moment. You can learn a lot from watching TV if you have the right kind of eyes.

 

People don't trust what they don't understand. If ZH readers are uneasy about investing in BTC, the sheeple will be scared shitless. Ever notice how the layman ALWAYS know when gold drops?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 21:03 | 4167739 aerojet
aerojet's picture

If you read Jim Bell's "Assassination Politics" you will see that the bounty is a bunch of hot air.  You have to be able to collect the bounty anonymously, and it is unclear whether anyone could ever do that using Bitcoin.  Not only do you have to be able to collect it, you have to prove you were the person who carried out the sanction--like specifying an exact date and time.  Assassination of the world's most protected people will always be an extremely dangerous undertaking, usually requiring a conspiracy to pull off, and inside knowledge.  $75K isn't even a down payment.  Try $50M.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:54 | 4166621 Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

It sure as hell doesn't mean the DHS, FBI, IRS, and other assorted gov't thugs and agencies won't be coming after Bitcoin holders and users (if they can). It's a real and possible risk for Americans anyway. Most PM's holders know this already and have seen the gov't action the last two or three years to crush gold and silver prices.

 

So you're saying gold and silver holders are doomed like bitcoin users? 

Or that the price of bitcoin is going to be crushed like gold and silver?

What is it that makes PM holders more immune to arrest and potential torture to give up their treasures than BTC holders?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:07 | 4166695 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

No Alpha, I don't know what's in store for Bitcoin longer term, but it's a possibility the big guns will be pointed at it next.

Gold and silver have already been taken down. At a bottom now, not a top. If I was making serious gains like fonstar probably is, I'd be cashing at least some of it out and buying some other hard assets because they are relatively cheap now.

 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:13 | 4166723 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

If bitcoin gets smashed all it does is enlighten moar people to our fascist state. 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:28 | 4167077 Lets_Eat_Ben
Lets_Eat_Ben's picture

"If bitcoin gets smashed all it does is enlighten moar people to our fascist state. "

 

about 37 people know wtf a bitcoin is.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:28 | 4167079 Lets_Eat_Ben
Lets_Eat_Ben's picture

"If bitcoin gets smashed all it does is enlighten moar people to our fascist state. "

 

about 37 people know wtf a bitcoin is.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:14 | 4166730 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

I know people on ZH like to scream bloody murder in regards to PMs - but I honestly don't understand why. I never bought my physical with the intention to trade. I bought as a systemic risk hedge, and it won't be used unless it's truly an emergency, consequently, I care very little about fluctuations. Ideally, I'd pass it on to my children, but realistically, I just can't see this pyramid of epic proportions having much more runway.

But then again, that's what I told everyone who were willing to listen back in 2009.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:18 | 4166731 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Some dumb fuckin senator just interrupted the person who was speaking about anti money laundering and asked what AML stands for LOL. 

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:33 | 4167099 kito
kito's picture

even i know that stands for the AMerican League. duh

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 19:16 | 4167315 dwayne elizando
dwayne elizando's picture

Well, judging by that, I'd say the bitcoin crowd has no need to fear these policy makers!

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:12 | 4166717 Sofa King Confused
Sofa King Confused's picture

If it moves, they are going to tax it.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:01 | 4166349 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

Has Jim Cramer endorsed bitcoins yet?

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:09 | 4166389 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Amen, brother.  Long live the narrative.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:17 | 4166422 tsx500
tsx500's picture

he must already have cuz the price just plummetted from 675 to 600 in minutes !

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:06 | 4166363 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

This smells like a potential Senate shakedown to me.

If Bitcoin just hires themselves some former Enron or Obamacare lobbyists and slides the Senators a couple of million each this matter is as good as settled if you ask me...

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:15 | 4166410 tvdog
tvdog's picture

Bitcoin is not an organization, can't hire anybody, and can't bribe politicians.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:29 | 4166450 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Pity. Even a 5th grader knows Washington runs strictly on a Pay-to-Play system.

Bitcoin = Deadcoin

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:41 | 4166553 Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

Good thing bitcoin is global otherwise there may be some conern.  Now, if we could just get some decently sized gold exchanges outside of Western hands...  I wonder if they'll have a senate hearing to figure out a "model" for gold.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:44 | 4166563 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

If you like your gold.....

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:06 | 4166671 ZerOhead
Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:17 | 4167024 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Yea, all of a sudden the dog and pony show that has been pointed out numerous times on ZH as scripted theater, is now, without a doubt, a group of concerned representatives of the people, by the people, and FOR THE PEOPLE. So help me GOD!

Over.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 18:18 | 4167031 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Amen.

Over.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:50 | 4166595 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

The question is not, "will they try to regulate BitCoin?" OF COURSE THEY WILL. Those fuckers regulate every fucking thing to within an inch of its life. They are bureaucrats, and there is nothing that a bureaucrat hates and fears more, than something it cannot control.

No, the proper question to ask is, "CAN they regulate BitCoin? Is it even theoretically possible?"

That is the question I would like answered. Given what little I know so far, I suspect that the answer might be some flavor of "No".

But I am eager to hear the case made by both sides.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 16:59 | 4166645 centerline
centerline's picture

They can just make it illegal.  Twist or invent laws as needed to make it so.

Mon, 11/18/2013 - 17:01 | 4166655 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

The issue will be the USA knocking down every website that transacts in bitcoins to get their customer lists and then go after the end user. So, if you live outside the USA, big deal, unless TPTB all want to outlaw it across the globe.

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