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Senate Grills Bitcoins - Live Webcast
"Beyond Silk Road: Potential Risks, Threats, and Promises of Virtual Currencies" is the title of today's Senate hearing (from Homeland Security) on th eperils of Bitcoin. We are sure the exaggeration and exasperation will run high as Government offers up its Financial Crimes (and missing and exploited children) directors, and the de-centralized unregulated crypto-currency faces them down...
Live Stream (via Senate)
Witnesses
Panel I
Jennifer Shasky Calvery
Director, Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
U.S. Department of the Treasury
Mythili Raman
Acting Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division
U.S. Department of Justice
Edward W. Lowery III
Special Agent in Charge, Criminal Investigative Division
U.S. Secret Service, U.S. Department of Homeland Security
Panel II
Ernie Allen
President and Chief Executive Officer
The International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children
Patrick Murck
General Counsel
The Bitcoin Foundation, Inc.
Jeremy Allaire
Chief Executive Officer
Circle Internet Financial, Inc.
Jerry Brito
Senior Research Fellow, The Mercatus Center
George Mason University
The best "brief" summary of what is Bitcoin...
Here is coindesk.com's color on what to expect...
Given the title, it’s perhaps unsurprising that Silk Road features heavily in some testimony. In particular, Mythili Raman, acting assistant attorney general for the US Department of Justice’s Criminal Division, uses it in his prepared statement as an example of why regulation of decentralized currencies should be “sufficiently robust”.
Anonymity vs privacy
Silk Road, the online black marketplace taken down by FBI investigators in October, highlights “challenges investigators face when they encounter these systems, some of which may ultimately require additional legal or regulatory tools,” Raman said, singling out the difficulty of accessing customer records as one of the most significant challenges facing law enforcers dealing with virtual currencies.
Ernie Allen, president and CEO of the International Centre for Missing and Exploited Children, is also worried about anonymity in virtual currencies. In his testimony, he will voice his concerns over the use of virtual currencies including bitcoin for child pornography and sex trafficking payments.
“In our consultations with law enforcement worldwide, we have heard the argument that there is a difference between privacy and anonymity. Law enforcement leaders embrace the broadest possible privacy protections for individuals, but emphasize that absolute internet anonymity is a prescription for catastrophe,” he says. “Our challenge is to find the right balance.”
Other testimony challenged those concerns about anonymity, though. “Anonymity is also a two-way street,” says Patrick Murck, general counsel for the Bitcoin Foundation, in his prepared statement.
“A top dealer on Silk Road was actively working with federal law enforcement, the anonymity of Silk Road making it easier for them to make undercover drug deals and subsequent arrests,” he explains.
Murck also has some feedback for those that hold up Silk Road as an example of bitcoin’s dangers, cautioning against tying bitcoin and Silk Road too closely together. He cites the Genesis Block’s analysis of the contribution that Silk Road made to bitcoin pricing.
In late December 2010 and early 2011, people buying bitcoins to make Silk Road purchases may have spiked the price from $.30 up to $.80. The price was then boosted by mainstream media attention, before settling at around $5, he says. Further price spikes were unrelated to Silk Road, and even its takedown in October had little long-lasting effect.
“The less this colors public and policymaker assessments of Bitcoin, the better,” he argues in his testimony. “Criminals do turn the beneficial instruments of society to their ends. But overreacting to this simple and obvious fact because Bitcoin is exotic and new could delay Americans enjoyment of Bitcoin’s benefits, which are vastly greater than its potential costs.”
Decentralized vs centralized currencies
Jerry Brito, a senior research fellow at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University and director of its Technology Policy Program, testifies that a decentralized currency like bitcoin would in any case be less appealing to online crooks than a centralized digital currency, like Liberty Reserve, which was taken down after its founders were arrested.
“While of growing concern, to date, virtual currencies have yet to overtake more traditional methods to move funds internationally.”
“Serious criminals looking to hide their tracks are more likely to choose a centralized virtual currency run by an intermediary willing to lie to regulators for a fee, rather than a decentralized currency like bitcoin that, as a technical matter, must make a record of every transaction, even if pseudonymously,” Brito points out.
Brito compares centralized digital currency Liberty Reserve’s estimated $6bn in crime-related revenues to under $200m in drug sales via Silk Road. He adjusts the Silk Road revenues down from the oft-quoted $1bn figure to reflect bitcoin value over the entire period.
At least one regulator seems sympathetic. FinCEN director Jennifer Shasky Calvery points out in her testimony that virtual currencies have yet to overtake more traditional methods to move funds internationally, whether for legitimate or criminal purposes.
“Any financial institution could be exploited for money laundering purposes,” she points out, adding, “While of growing concern, to date, virtual currencies have yet to overtake more traditional methods to move funds internationally, whether for legitimate or criminal purposes.”
Inter-departmental collaboration
FinCEN itself is hard at work, and several FinCEN virtual currency experts gave a comprehensive presentation on the topic to an audience of Federal and state bank examiners at an FFIEC Payment Systems Risk Conference, Calvery says, adding that the agency also works with the FBI, with the Treasury Cyber Working Group, and “a community of other financial intelligence units”.
This inter-departmental collaboration is an important strut of the government’s approach to law enforcement in virtual currency, says Raman, especially in the context of the Government’s Strategy to Combat Transnational Organized Crime. The Department of Justice works closely with FinCEN and the State Department, and it was this relationship that enabled the co-ordinated targeting of Liberty Reserve, he says, adding:
“Such coordinated actions are integral tools in combating illicit finance. Investigations into illicit virtual currency businesses therefore often require considerable cooperation from international partners.”
He highlighted the fact that the Liberty Reserve takedown involved co-operation between 17 countries.
The Foundation is eager to talk up its relationship with regulators, even if Murck finds “details on which we might quibble,” such as the Foundation’s desire for a notice-and-comment process before FinCEN issued its new virtual currency guidance in March. However, the Foundation has found federal regulators welcoming on the whole, he says.
Harsh words for state regulators
He reserved harsh words for regulators at the state level, however, particularly calling out “one state regulator”, which he said issued 22 subpoenas to bitcoin-related businesses, and made TV statements about “narcoterrorism”. He’s referring to New York’s Department of Financial Services, who made that statement on the air.
“Irresponsible public statements like these make it more likely that legitimate bitcoin businesses will relocate to more welcoming countries,” Murck said.
However, he added that he saw positive signs among both state regulators and banking executives, indicating that greater understanding is coming.
Calvery echoed Murck’s conciliatory overtones, talking about an outreach effort to court the bitcoin community. FinCEN met with the Bitcoin Foundation in late August, and has invited it to present to a Congressionally-chartered forum, the Bank Secrecy Act Advisory Group (BSAAG) scheduled for mid-December.
Jeremy Allaire, founder of merchant payment services firm Circle Internet Financial, which recently received $9m in funding, also wants a collaborative approach to regulation. He identifies several dangers for an unregulated bitcoin community in his testimony, including tax dodging, fraud, and terrorism. Illiquidity and volatility are two other dangers, he warned, predicting wild price fluctuation if central banks and institutional investors are not able to act as market-makers in bitcoin.
“I believe we are at the forefront of another twenty year journey of Internet-led transformation, this time in our global financial systems, and the opportunity is to foster that economic change while simultaneously putting in place the safeguards that only government can enable,” he says.
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That overarching NSA network sure looks like it has purpose in this light. Tax man wants his cut - and his bosses are getting desperate for cash to keep the party going.
The amount of money in BitCoin is trivial, a miniscule rounding error on global wealth. Their tax collection efforts will be much more profitably spend elsewhere.
Unless, of course, BitCoins get to be worth about $1,000,000 each.
That would be awful...right?
"Unless, of course, BitCoins get to be worth about $1,000,000 each."
Waaay before that happens, some hacker will have perfected the "extraction" process. Most likely, before even tptb get to it. Ah, but what better reason on the part of Leviathan, after the fact, for regulating BC out of existence, in the name of "Consumer Protection?"
1933 gold confiscation redo? Gonna take a lot of dredges to scour all those lake bottoms. Of course, one could sink ones BC's there too, and hope the backup battery holds up.
Real is real. Fiat is fiat.
I lost my laptop with my bitcoin wallet on it in the same boating accident that claimed my precious metals.
That's kind of funny. So did I.
BitCoin isn't fiat, by definition.
Fiat money is money by decree, money that is imposed by dictat. The Federal Reserve Note is the supreme example: "This note is LEGAL TENDER for all debts, public and private".
BitCoin is imposed by no one, on no one. You can take or leave it as you choose.
Why on earth do you think the gold was seized in 1933? Gold is free money, and they needed to replace it with their fiat currency.
This dipshits in this Senate hearing don't have a clue about the threat that BitCoin represents to the Fiat Dollar.
However, I'm quite confident that there are people somewhere in the bowels of the Federal Reserve who are starting to "get it".
how come? im sure bitcoin insiders are billionaires by now, or at least hundred millionaires, so why exaclty cant they bribe anyone?
Because odds are, they aren't power-hungry, control-freak, psychopathic megalomaniacs.
Because those kinds of people tend not to be, um, capable of doing actual, innovative work. Like inventing a brand new currency concept based on cryptographic principles.
You are being very naive, if you think that whoever is behind this bitcoin ponzi isnt greedy ir power hungry. Besides, whoes to say that its not NSA behind it? It very well could be, bitcoin is globalists wet dream.
I'm saying the people who INVENTED BitCoin aren't like that.
However, I am quite open to the idea that BitCoin could be hijacked by uber-creepy.
In fact I'm sure they've got "top men" looking at BitCoin very, very hard to see if it suits their needs.
Please keep in mind that BitCoin has some properties that make it EXTREMELY UNDESIRABLE from the viewpoint of a psychopathic megalomaniac. Probably the biggest is that it can't be created at will, like electronic fiat dollars can be.
This point alone almost certainly renders BitCoin useless for their purposes.
umm... and you know that how? you dont even know who "invented" it, so how do you know what they are like? Those who "invented" it are sitting on millions of bitcoins, this wasnt for a charity, so dont tell me they are "honorable guys with good intentions", there is a good reason they are hiding behind the curtains.
Who knows. Maybe you are right. But like I said-- creating an innovative new currency system, totally unlike anything that has come before involves creative thinking, extremely high intelligence, and more importantly-- hard work.
These people are thugs. Exceedingly clever in their thuggery, but not much else. Thugs don't MAKE, they TAKE.
What is the current total market value for all Bitcoins? Is it $1 Billion? $100 Billion?
How much does Benny Boy print every month and hand to the TBTF Banks?
What is the trading limit of a senior FX trader at JPM (hint think London Whale size)?
Now how hard would it be for a few FX traders at JPM, GS, HSBC et al to open multiple Bitcoin accounts and buy a substantial % of the outstanding market value (hint: not very hard)?
And there you have the commencement of Operation Bitcoin Manipulation. Of course, you will need Futures, Options, SWAPS and Structured Products for these Bitoins and the fun will really begin.
BitCoin is NOT an elastic currency. Consequently, it is MUCH less susceptible to manipulation. Why on earth do you think the Federal Reserve was invented in the first place?? They went to all that trouble to create an elastic currency for a reason.
There already is a futures market. Only they call it BC gambling.
Nah, SDR's are what globalist wet dreams are made of. BitCoin is way too far outside of anyone's control to be of use as a tool of enslavement.
Instead you'll get more of what we see today, parabolic moves and demonizing rhetoric from the bully pulpit.
In other words, FUD squared.
Just a diversion. Got to get Zerocare off the front page or the 2014 election is going to clean some incumbent clocks.
The politicians and their TBTF banker enablers...
Will either get NSA to sabatoge the bitcoin "network" with a Stuxnet variant...
Or go after individual users by tracking their internet use...
And pick them off one by one...
The same way they go after child pron users.
But then again, they may see big $$ is this...
They may decide they'd rather not want to ban BC...
But would rather regulate and tax the hell out of it.
See what politicians have done to the cost...
Of a single pack of cigarettes.
And my wife is repulsed at the smell of the roll-your-own tabaki, but hell, she was pissed I faked giving up drinking and she got over that, HAH!!!
If Bitcoin lived up to its hype, the drug lords would already be all over it.
Gold, bitchez!
+ $55,000!
(or would that be + 100 Bitcoin?)
Why would I ever spend an ever-growing BTC? oh wait
Cyber trade, sure....cyber wealth, hmmm.
CONgress Critter: "So tell me, are Bitcoins made of Gold, Silver, or an alloy of some sort?"
Bitcoin Counsel: "Um..."
Kinda... https://www.casascius.com/
Can you get 'em plugged?
More like "so, is the bitcoin money supply elastic?"
To be followed by "I'm not sure that qualifies as a 'serious' currency. One might worry that such ponzi schemes could ultimately hurt the end consumer".
But they don't since consumers don't have to use bitcoins in a digital transaction if they choose not to. Regulation is not to protect consumers from themselves but should be to keep businesses that want to operate 'legitimately' in certain jurisidictions from acting unscrupulously in cheating consumers. It is about enforcement of an agreed upon transactional contract between a consumer and business.
You are silly and naive.
Courts of Equity Law have existed for many centuries, and they have done a fine job of enforcing business agreements, including cases fraud and cheating.
Regulations, on the other hand, serve one purpose: to favor the politically-connected class over the non-politically-connected class. Of course it is dressed up in a lot of noble language, which sounds good but is just the shiny wrapping and bow hiding a steaming turd. The technical term is, "operating under Color of Law."
Many "common law" principles would not allow the current fucked up system we have now.
That was made possible with regulations made to override common laws big business didn't like.
You need minimal laws and a reversion to the common law to clean up this mess.
Yes, exactly.
We have seen Common Law (aka "The Law of the LAND") get almost entirely subverted by Maritime Law (aka "The Law of the SEA").
The first is a system of law where Free Men can resolve their differences and disputes. The second is a system of regulations and bureaucracies, where Privileges overtake Rights, and no man is truly Free, but rather the subject of another man.
Popcorn is popping...
If you like your bitcoins, you can keep your bitcoins.
"We have to buy Bitcoins to see what's in them."
Period !
No you can make them with any computer. It's P2P, as you contribute or you can buy them. It's cheaper making them.
Can you imagine if this becomes a globally accepted form of payment accepted at businesses?
The sync time alone will make this totally infeasible. Humans want instantaneous results. Ty Pennington homes are completely built in a day. You can't take 6 hours to sync!
If half the earthly population used CC for online only payments and 2/3 of all business accepted them, lol, this system would be crawling on it's knees. 72 hour sync easy. lol. What are you guys thinking!?
Over.
Still no answer on that one...
I tried downloading the full node software back when BC was $220. It fried my internet connection and I had to remove the program to get it back running.
Funny thing is:
If you download the source code from bitcoin.org and compile it yourself the size of the executable is much smaller than the precompiled binary offered from their website.
http://bitcoin.org/en/download
Monkey business.
Over.
It takes on average 10 minutes for a transaction to be verified (i.e. protection against double spending). In practical terms, however, there is not need to verify small, in person transactions. For bigger purchases, such as houses and cars, less than an hour wait for maximum security is not unreasonable.
Let's just say, there's room for improvement. Lol.
Over.
Pricing into this event show clearly that 1.2 Billion chinese do not care a bit about the US Senate, and its politicians. Over 100 USD over the price in Japan
Good thing they took time out of fucking everything else up in the Ulcerated Sphincter of Asserica to look at bitcoins.
Isn't there a baseball player accused of slurping a 64 ounce drink in NYC or something?
pods
A 64 ounce drink in New York does not threaten their monopoly on currency, trade and tax as a means of enslavement. Baseball hearing were a means to get to meet players and get autographs for the senators grandkids.
Can NSA track Bitcoin transactions?
of course
Does a Congressman take bribes after dark?
When it comes to bribes, graft, and corruption, your Congressman is ready to answer the call 24/7/365!
fonestar sais "NO" in 3, 2, 1,....
Anyone can track bitcoin transactions. All of them. The entire ledger for bitcoin (the blockchain) is shared and duplicated by all bitcoin peers.
The real question is, can the NSA connect an address to a specific person. The answer is yes unless you make an effort to make it otherwise.
Silk Road bro. And that was back in the day when no one knew about it.
Good luck Seek.
Over.
Of course! With a quantum anti-matter phaser. Duh!
WITH BITCOINS IT'S EVEN MORE EASY THAN ANYTHING ELSE.
Have you ever seen what kind of info you need to give to get to you bitcoins? All that is missing is a fingerprint and a irisscan
No personal data is required to get bitcoins. If you choose to buy BTC from someone who wants you to give them your personal information, that's your decision, but it's not a requirement of bitcoins themselves.
They can track a duck farting on a router. It'll carry a signature just like any packet online. Can they read it? No. It's crypto currency.
Bullshit! 256 bit is not 1024. Funny how your architects went with the lightest crypto.
Spot the FED! And you're it.
Over.
+1, great resume article.
You're out of order! You're out of order! The whole trial is out of order! They're out of order! That man, that sick, crazy, depraved man, raped and beat that woman there, and he'd like to do it again! He *told* me so! It's just a show! It's a show! It's "Let's Make A Deal"! "Let's Make A Deal"! Hey Frank, you wanna "Make A Deal"? I got an insane judge who likes to beat the shit out of women! Whaddya wanna gimme Frank, 3 weeks probation?
Better check those BitCoins for evidence of steroid use!
But its O.K. to wire money you don't have to a primary dealer?
But But if we can't control it how can we manipulate it?!?!?!
Get to work Mr Chairman!
The Dark Web, LOL...
All this Congressional baloney is motivated by their fear and greed. They are too stupid to panic yet. They just want to take it over, which they can't. One way or another, it is all going to come back to the gold they own. They will want the same thing when they realize bitcoin can't be controlled.
They're just setting the stage for the next 9/11, which will be conducted via bitcoin payments, as everyone is now being taught that it's nothing but another terrorist tool.
"People just want to live by the rules." No, asshole, we want you to stop trying to make fucking rules for us. We want you to fuck off and die.
Every now and again I wish I had Twitter.
This is one of those times.
pods
Do not succumb to temptation.
given the CVs of the first panel of witnesses, i can't see them saying anything good about bitcoins.
who gives a shit?
i would, if i were holding bitcoins...
These impotent retards couldn't hurt Bitcoin even if they knew what they were.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1956
18 USC § 1957 - Engaging in monetary transactions in property derived from specified unlawful activityhttp://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1957
Nobody gets it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act,_Title_III#Subtitle_C.E2.80.94...
Subtitle C—Currency Crimes and Protection[edit]Subtitle C deals with a number of crimes relating to currency. It attempts to prevent bulk cash smuggling and allows for forfeiture in currency reporting cases. It also introduces a number of measures to deal with counterfeiting. the BSA was amended to clarify extraterritorial jurisdiction matters.
Bulk cash smuggling into or out of the United States[edit]Under section 371 of the Patriot Act, Congress found that currency reporting under the Bank Secrecy Act (BSA) was significant in forcing money launders to avoid traditional financial institutions to launder money and had forced them to use cash-based businesses to avoid traditional financial institutions. Due to this avoidance, large amounts of currency in bulk form (bank notes, etc.) is now moved out of the U.S. by money launderers and into foreign financial institutions or sold on the black market. In fact, bulk currency was found to have become the most popular form of money laundering for moving large amounts of cash in an evasive manner. Due to this finding, a new effort was made to stop the laundering of money through bulk currency movements, mainly focusing on the confiscation of criminal proceeds and the increase in penalties for money laundering. Congress found that a criminal offense of merely evading the reporting of money transfers was insufficient and decided that it would be better if the smuggling of the bulk currency itself was the offense.
Therefore, a new section[59] was appended to the BSA that made it a criminal offense to evade currency reporting by concealing more than US$10,000 on any person or through any luggage, merchandise or other container that moves into or out of the U.S.. The penalty for such an offense is up to 5 years imprisonment and the forfeiture of any property up to the amount that was being smuggled. The procedures that cover the seizure and forfeiture of such property are specified under section 413 of the Controlled Substances Act.[60] If the defendant has insufficient assets to allow the court to seize enough substitute property to cover the amount being smuggled, then the court is authorized to make a personal money judgement up to the amount to be forfeited.
Forfeiture in currency reporting cases[edit]The BSA was amended by section 372 of the Patriot Act to make the civil and criminal penalty violations of currency reporting cases[61] be the forfeiture of all a defendant's property that was involved in the offense, and any property traceable to the defendant.[62]
Illegal money transmitting businesses[edit]Section 1960 of title 18 of the United States Code, was amended by section 373 of the Patriot Act.[63] Previously it prohibited and penalized illegal money transmitting businesses, but it now prohibits and gives similar penalties for unlicensed money transmitting businesses. This section was used to prosecute Yehuda Abraham for helping to arrange money transfers for British arms dealer Hermant Lakhani, who was arrested in August 2003 after being caught in a government sting. Lakhani had tried to sell a missile to an FBI agent posing as a Somali militant.[64]
Counterfeiting domestic and foreign currency and obligations[edit]Due to section 374 of the Patriot Act, the definition of domestic counterfeiting now encompasses analog, digital, or electronic image reproductions and the penalties are set out in various parts of the U.S. Code.[65] Penalties for domestic counterfeiting were increased to 20 years imprisonment for the counterfeiting of obligations or securities,[66] and also for passing off counterfeited currency.[67] It also makes it an offense to own an analog, digital, or electronic image of any obligation or other security of the United States,[68] to make an impression of tools that are used to make such an obligation[69] or possess or sell impressions of tools used for obligations or securities.[69] The penalties for such violations of the law are severe: offenders will be imprisoned for up to 25 years. The law also considers connecting parts of different notes to be a counterfeiting offense, and the Patriot Act increased the penalty from 5 years imprisonment to 10 years.[70] The Act also increases the penalty from 5 years imprisonment to 10 years for counterfeiting bonds and obligations of certain domestic lending agencies.[71]
Similar changes were made under section 375 to foreign obligations and currency. Previously, penalties for counterfeiting the bonds, certificates, obligations, or other securities of a foreign nation were a maximum five years of imprisonment. This was changed to 20 years in jail.[72] Penalties for uttering counterfeit foreign obligations or securities where also extended from 5 years imprisonment to 20 years.[73] A penalty was added to 18 U.S.C. § 481 for those who manufacture or own plates, stones, or analog, digital, or electronic images for counterfeiting foreign obligations or securities, and the penalties for violating the section was extended from five years to 20 years imprisonment. Anyone caught manufacturing or uttering foreign bank notes will be penalised with 20 years imprisonment.[74]
Laundering the proceeds of terrorism[edit]Section 376 modified 18 U.S.C. § 1956, which makes unlawful the laundering of monetary instruments, to include the provision of material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations in its definition of "unlawful activity".[75]
Extraterritorial jurisdiction[edit]The U.S. Code was amended by section 377. This now states that anybody who undertakes a fraudulent action, and anyone who conspires with that person, outside the jurisdictionof the United States which would be an offense in the U.S. will be prosecuted under 18 U.S.C. § 1029, which deals with fraud and related activity in connection with access devices. This only applies if
Yes, yes, yes...lots of words....very scary.
And of course, the senate is full of lawyers...all placing much significance in your citations.
Impotency codified.
Do all women in law enforcement munch rug?
serious butch party
Haven't you heard? Militant lesbians have been taking over the senior management of DHS since Obama got into office.
It's created some, ahem, "morale problems" inside the organization.
Given what Obama stands for, and who he plays with, I'd imagine that its the same across most of the big Federal LE agencies.
Male homosexuals prefer spending all their time sucking each other's cocks. It's a major time commitment, and is not well suited to the demands of running major federal bureaucracies. So they tend to self-select out, leaving it to the lesbians.
Congress is a much friendlier place for a cocksucker. Few real responsibilities, and tons of opportunity to meet interns, and suck their dicks, all while on the clock. And there's always the pedophile rings for after-hours entertainment.
Great publicity for Bitcoin.
What other events could draw new eyes?
The PhDs at the Fed don't like when they have competition. They want to keep bleeding wealth from the 99%.
francis_sawyer posted this a while ago, but it's worth a copy n' paste:
How does the Fed destroy bitcoin?
You create thousands upon thousands of small little 'dummy' accounts of varying incremental sizes...
You print [fiat] money to fund all these little accounts & send the money you printed out of thin air to Mt. Gox
Bid Bid Bid Bid for a couple of straight weeks [whilst others are sucked in]
At the proper moment... ALGO sell everything [followed by similar buy programs at conceivable STOP levels]... You're trading against yourself...
You don't give a flying fuck if your DUMMY accounts are getting commissioned &/or losing value... It's all PLAY money to you cause you printed it out of thin air...
Not to others though... A couple of days of this & real people will have had it with bitcoin... Even if they hang in there, MERCHANTS won't touch it with a 10 foot pole... You're back to the dark ages of the nether regions of the Silk Road... Sure ~ bitcoin still survives... but it never catches on in a mainstream commercial sense... Especially since there is no legal avenue for you to take your complaints...
shows a lack of fundamental understanding of the subject
what do you expect from some burrowed in stackers hoping their coin selling business doesn't go bankrupt
I'm a stacker too. But i don't have blinders on.
the majority of ZH'ers are establishment bootlicking cowards.
actions over words and all I see here are crybabies
I'm only skeptical, Dark Lord of Golgotha.
i'm genuinely curious, is this not possible?
No, it's not possible. The only way to create the necessary price momentum to the downside is to NAKED SHORT.
Since naked shorting BitCoin is, quite literally, impossible, you can't manipulate the BitCoin market to anywhere near the extent you can manipulate commodity, bond, or stock markets-- all of which are absurdly easy to naked short.
You don't have to have absolute control. You just have to provide the spark that ignites the prarie fire (activation energy).
Remember, prices are set at the margins. Set off a stampede for the exits and just watch as the weak/speculative hands fold.
For all we know, The Winklevi could be playing that very game right now in exchange for other more "profitable" opportunities later, as the easiest way to win any battle is to own all sides.
Agree that prices are set at the margins, but to create a stampede, you need to create some MOMENTUM. And momentum = mass times velocity.
Naked shorting gives you the "mass" necessary to reliably get a stampede going. You can do it all on velocity but it's much harder.
To use your fire analogy, yes all you need is a spark, but even the slightest breeze can blow it out. You need to feed that spark with lots of tinder and kindling, if you want to be sure to get the fire going.
Was the end of the tulip bubble triggered by naked short selling?
I consider the tulip bubble to be more comparable to Pet Rocks, or Beanie Babies.
The whole tulip meme is SO inappropriate anyone using it should have their posting privileges on a financial/economics blog suspended.
A more apt comparison to the tulip outcome would be the fiat FRN scam...with one modification...not only would the FED be able to print endlessly, everyone who gets their hands on a FRN could print them as well. THAT is the reality of the tulip scenario...as natural, living, growing, MULTIPLYING things, they were ALWAYS destined to fail as either investments or currency.
Simple minds parroting ignorant analogies.
Is it possible they could run the price up (prematurely)? Sure. Would then dumping them cause the exchange rate of FRNs/BTC to go down? Yes.Maybe.No.
It's childishly myopic mental processes at work here. The Fed is already fabricating 85-125 bil./month but it is essentially going into dark pools. Fabricating FRNs and buying BTCs would inject the FRNs into the wild. Inflation would be quick, and who knows what sort of dominoes that sets in motion. Even when they were done with this supposed "grand move" they would be right back where they started, holding zero BTC, but BTC still existing, still anonymous, still as an alternate form of currency, still in limited quantity. The REASON BTC exists, has only been reinforced at that point. getting back to the supposed print and buy aspect, that too is a fools errand, if anyone thinks that just because the FED stopped buying, that everyone else would too. they would be running the very real risk of giving BTC legs. I posted a link in another thread re; diffusion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_(business) and it should be pretty clear that FED running up the price only results in moving along the progression of the model. that is, if they were to buy, buy, buy, they would be doing so for how long? through the "early adopter" phase? the "early majority" phase? It's too late then...all the FED selling could likely do would be to force a temporary dip in exchange (like we see with gold and silver smashes). And like gold and silver smashes, the only result is that somebody gets a deal when converting their FRNs to the other thing - whether it be gold, silver, or BTC.
No...ther are a million other considerations here, and the Sawyer blurb is woefully simplistic and disregards economic reality.
jomama, francis's words live on.............he taught us so much.........
~~~~~
all hail Francis Sawyer!.
You can't pump and dump a state-less international crypto-currency on the growth side of the curve and diminish demand. It is when it hits peak coin that the banks can either dry up supply or bid the coin value to basically 0 doing the shell company, straw man game.
With due respect to my mentor francis_sawyer, I don't think the feds can do anything as long as the Chinese are on the other side of the trade.
Why is he banned?!
UNBAN HIM TYLER!
one of a million billion plans - long live the dollar and BtC if they can make it work but i don't buy unless it comes down to $100 then you can suck me down to $10 while I cry lol...
acutally let gold go down to $800 and then i start buying kilos :) yey for gold down btc up!!!
I am Linda Green
~~~
what currency criminals did use before BTC ?
Fool! Until BitCoin arrived, we have lived in a paradise where money laundering is unheard of, laws are enforced with 100% efficiency and equity, and the people are joyful and prosperous!
Wait until tha banks figure out they can launder drug money this way and not have to pay those annoying FTC fines...
Idiots.
Contemplating their navels.
If gold was truly free like bit coin it would have gone parabolic too. These politicians and bankers are pissed off...
When gold will be free(d) it will go parabolic, and piss off banksters and politicians. There, fixed.
Sell Sell Sell
This is pretty much an admission that they are going to target bitcoin users.
Using bitcoin pretty much means you will be investigated for some grotesque crime or associated with disgusting porn.
The ledger is public, they can't unless they can trace the specific coins to specific individuals in their jurisidictions.
They don't have to do anything, all they have to do is associate people who use bitcoins with disgusting things like child porn and people will refuse to take bitcoins as a form of payment.
When people refuse to take it as a form of payment for real goods, it becomes purely speculative and as such is completely a ponzi scheme operation.
Even now, most of bitcoins value in USD terms is purely speculation driven.... the actual use of bitcoin as a payment system has been perverted and it has been turned into a speculative vehicle.................
When a vehicles primary use is to gamble, the vehicle is doomed to fail, purchasing goods and services with bitcoins is a 2ndary use AT BEST , hell ...I would say even 5th or 6th or 7th primary use....1st use is gambling speculation 2nd use is money laundering 3rd use is illegal transactions/masking transactions 4th use is tax evasion 5th use is to buy drugs 6th use is purchasing bootlet chinese knock offs of gucci bags.
The ledgers are pointless, they for the most part dont need to have any identifiers on them, which means the ownership is arbitrary.
If you get pulled over for a dui or something, and they see a bitcoin wallet paper in your wallet you will probably be investigated for further crimes like drug dealing.
Even now, most of [gold's] value in USD terms is purely speculation driven.... the actual use of [gold] as a payment system has been perverted and it has been turned into a speculative vehicle.................
Everything is a speculative vehicle.
The end goal is still accumulating FRNS doesn't matter if you buy BTC'S or Gold or SlV, your goal is to get someone else to give you their FRNS.
"Using bitcoin pretty much means you will be investigated for some grotesque crime or associated with disgusting porn."
Whew! Given that I commit only elegant crimes and view beautiful, albeit esoteric porn, apparently I'll be safe!
So Bitcoin's are used by criminals to carry out illegal activity so they should be banned.
And this guy was doing....what?
http://izismile.com/2009/10/21/drug_money_205_million_in_cash_12_pics.html
ssssshhhhhh....nobody's supposed to know about that...
"Not illegal -- but we must be able to regulate it!"
I am just starting this research, but this is troubling (IE How can it be used for transferring currency if you have difficulty redeeming it?):
Redemption policy with Mt Gox
Please note the following rules :
- It is not possible to withdraw less than 10 EUR.
- Withdraws lower than 100.00 EUR are on average take less than a week.
- It takes at least a month on average for withdrawals larger than 10,000 EUR
- Withdrawals greater than 50,000 EUR need to be split it into multiple transfers or you can use the International Wire payment method.
- Due to the volume of withdrawals requests, each customer is currently only allowed 1 withdrawal every 20 days (estimate)
Situation as of 17 November 2013: We are currently processing withdrawals requested six weeks ago. (Users with several withdrawals in the queue must take the 20 day rule above into account)
If true, that is totally messed up.
It's true, but that's just Mt. Gox. The banks (likely at the direction of the government) basically took away their ability to make wire transfers. Gox is limited to (I think) 12 transfers per day now.
No one sane uses Gox to trade anymore, which is why they're no longer the largest exchange (they were pretty much the only game in town at the start of the year.)
Did Madoff write those rules?
no, but he has made his own ponzi-based, crypto-currency from jail..........called berniebits.......
check it out.........
www.BernieBits.com
I am not making things up and am expecting someone who knows to point out where I am wrong, just researching and learning. My account has been opended but am awaiting verification.
https://support.mtgox.com/entries/21649594-Withdrawals-and-Deposits
Gox doesn't matter anymore... get on the ball!
Which one would you recommend. Please provide additional info.
thanks
here's a newer one I found today:
https://coinbase.com/
I use 'em.
Thanks, I will research. I chose the Mt Gox since it was older. Will research this one
In Canada we have Canada Virtual Exchange aka cavirtex. They just put out a debit card which I am awaiting in the mail.
And ya, mtgox will not release cash - only your bitcoin to another location. that's why their price is always crazy high.
Lol wtf is the point in "investing*cough* gambling" on bitcoin if you can't even get your money out.
The exchanges are haphazardly assembled.... if you sell your Btc and hold a USD balance, you don't even have a guarentee of getting your money out....
I'm still reading stories that e-wallets get hacked by "digital pickpockets". I know I know, INCONCEIVABLE.
Try bitcoin.de. Not sure if you can get an account over there in the US. With that exchange you get direct transfer of coins to bank xfer and back,
When you put an asset you own under the control of a third party, you introduce risk.
Bitcoins are no different from gold, silver, or any other asset in that respect.
“ Irresponsible public statements like these make it more likely that legitimate bitcoin businesses will relocate to more welcoming countries "
I 'm not so sure they will forbid BTC .
Did he just ask for a higher budget? Take bitcoin? :)
Translation: "We need more $$$ from Congress!"
Senat grills Bitcoins...more like:
Bitcoin torches the dollar
Re: in other news...
Sure it good to see that it isn't just the US voters who elect sociopaths.
Hey be fair . . .maybe he was just trying to get to a Big Mac. The woman was collateral damage.
You just have to love those goofy Canadians, they sure have a style all their own.
Translation: "We need more laws from Congress!"
"Digital currencies are not illegal." - Mythili Raman
"...as long as they comply with the existing laws and money laundering regulations..." - Edward W. Lowery III
So when does Chelsea Clinton in the background start to faint..?
The porn is the violence. Odd how the drug profiters, money launders, gun runners, are chasing after freedom from criminal opressive goverments.. Nice to see our Brown Shirts moved faster than China's Storm troopers. Why don't we just use Blackwater trained Jack Boots in policing to occupy torture those who dare to throw the money changers out. the real porn was Yellen and fractional reserve debt mongers
"The Rothschilds, and that class of money-lenders of whom they are the representatives and agents -- men who never think of lending a shilling to their next-door neighbors, for purposes of honest industry, unless upon the most ample security, and at the highest rate of interest -- stand ready, at all times, to lend money in unlimited amounts to those robbers and murderers, who call themselves governments, to be expended in shooting down those who do not submit quietly to being robbed and enslaved."by:Lysander Spooner(1808-1887) Political theorist, activist, abolitionistSource:"No Treason #6" (1870)
DHS is the one bitcoiners ought to look forward to.
http://goldsilverbitcoin.com
So bitcoins go to the moon?
Everything Obammy/Congress touches explodes in their face these days!
"This country has an interest in money laundering, financial terrists, etc."
Rug muncher just told me all I need to hear lol.