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Guest Post: The Future Of Bitcoin Is In Asia...

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Simon Black of Sovereign Man blog,

Senator Tom Carper (Delaware) is confused about Bitcoin.

As Chairman of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, this is how Carper framed his opening remarks yesterday at a hearing about digital currencies– with complete, incoherent confusion.

Carper’s hearing went on for several hours as one witness after another testified about the potential evils of digital currencies. They hailed from agencies and organizations like:

  • The Homeland Security committee
  • Criminal Division of the US Attorney General’s Office
  • US Secret Service Criminal Investigative Division
  • The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
  • The International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children

Based on the way they stacked the witness list, the message they’re sending is clear: digital currencies like Bitoin equate to crime, terrorism, and child exploitation.

But the height of absurdity in yesterday’s hearing probably came during the testimony from the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), in which the agency’s chief cited the BENEFITS of digital currencies, including:

  • anonymity
  • simple, easy to navigate
  • lower fees than the conventional financial system
  • globally accessible
  • can be used as both a store of value and medium of exchange
  • security

etc.

Yet in listing all of these benefits, FinCEN’s chief was actually trying to make a case AGAINST Bitcoin! In her mind, only criminal terrorists want low-fee, secure, globally accessible money.

All of these politicians and bureaucrats can’t wait to get their arms around digital currency to regulate the hell out of it. They don’t understand it… therefore they think it’s dangerous.

Even the World Bank president (a US government-appointed stooge) weighed in on digital currencies. It’s obvious they’re all afraid.

And their entire argument begins with the deeply flawed premise that financial privacy is somehow wrong, immoral, and nefarious.

There’s no sense trying to convince them otherwise. Government’s mission is to obstruct… particularly a government in decline.

So we can expect more hearings, more regulation, more disclosures. At least, in the Land of the Free.

Over here on the other side of the world, though, they’re not afraid of Bitcoin.

Places like Hong Kong and Singapore understand that they have a role to play as preeminent international financial centers in becoming financial hubs for digital currencies.

If the US wants to shoot itself in the foot (again) and shut itself out of the market, so be it. But Asia is embracing its potential role in the marketplace, complete with all the risks and rewards.

It wasn’t but a few weeks ago that a Hong Kong-based bitcoin exchange ran off with a few million dollars of customer money. But that hasn’t cooled demand in the region… nor has it sparked a wave of debilitating regulations to clamp down on digital currencies.

What this ultimately means is that all the new businesses and intellectual capital associated with digital currencies will flock to Asia… just in the same way that all the cutting edge precious metals firms are now basing themselves in Singapore.

The US government is sharpening its steak knives in anticipation of a great digital currency roast. But they’ll find out very soon that Bitcoin has left the building… and moved on to greener, safer pastures in Asia.

This is good news, especially for second generation digital currencies and related firms like litecoin, ripple, and ven.

 

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Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:46 | 4171665 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

I just signed up and am going to make my first buy after the next price crash!

Anyone use Coinbase?

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:51 | 4171684 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

As Bit Coin is divisible up to 8 decimal places, it is obvious the software was designed with the thought it mind that at some time each coin could be worth a considerable sum. So large a sum that it would be necessary to be divided considerably, in order to allow for typical business transactions.

If we were to assume the eighth decimal place was a penny then each Bit Coin would have a value of $1mil.

What can you buy for a penny?

If we were to assume the eighth decimal place was a dollar then each Bit Coin would have a value of $100mil (If my math is correct).

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:58 | 4171710 MillionDollarBogus_
MillionDollarBogus_'s picture

The only thing they need to fear about bitcoin is buying it at the top.

They are frustrated because they missed out on the amazing bitcoin bubble buildup.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:00 | 4171716 Troll Magnet
Troll Magnet's picture

I'm waiting for KosherCoin to be rolled out by TPTB.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:06 | 4171742 StacksOnStacks
StacksOnStacks's picture

@Silver is King: Yes, I do.  It is difficult though when demand spikes because they have a certain amount they have for sale each day.  Good news, you get them for a really great price compared to their current trade on Mt. Gox... I checked a few minutes ago and it was $550 or so.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:13 | 4171745 Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

I'm loading up on Tulipcoin!

The future of Tulipcoin is in Europe...

http://vimeo.com/39214992

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:12 | 4172182 TwoShortPlanks
Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:16 | 4172354 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

I like your posts, TSP. You are one of the few here who have been offerring a fresh perspective.

Have you heard from Joyful and iDog? I hope they are well.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 19:21 | 4175437 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

Thanks Prisoner.

Nope, not seen (heard) either of them.....NSA Drone Strike?!

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 07:40 | 4172802 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

If you're going to quote an existing study, then make sure you provide a link to said study, and not some "preview" linkbait. There's fuck all chance I'm going to spend $15 finding out what it says.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 19:22 | 4175443 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

"If you're going to quote an existing study, then make sure you provide a link to said study, and not some "preview" linkbait"....no, I won't.

"There's fuck all chance I'm going to spend $15 finding out what it says."....good for you!

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:33 | 4171816 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

"Yet in listing all of these benefits, FinCEN’s chief was actually trying to make a case AGAINST Bitcoin! In her mind, only criminal terrorists want low-fee, secure, globally accessible money."

When you fear everyone, everything looks like a threat to you.

This would be an ideal area for the government to step back and say "we don't know, so we're going to leave it alone."  But no, they're going straight to Plan A: "if it moves, regulate it, control it, corrupt it."


Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:55 | 4171885 Paveway IV
Paveway IV's picture

Plan A? That doesn't sound profitable and involves work. That's just where it will end up.

Bankers have their preferred Plan Z: Hypothicate it and milk the useless eaters, then let the bureaucrats work on Plan A.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:11 | 4172203 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

She brought up the subject of offshore hidden accounts and basically came right out and said Bitcoin will be putting Swiss banks out of business from the comfort of my own living room (and at lower cost, too!).

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:41 | 4171836 Agstacker
Agstacker's picture

Why even have the word 'coin' in it?  

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coin

 

Why not just call it a 'Bitfiat'?

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:44 | 4172014 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Ummm... because it isn't fiat?

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:10 | 4171754 fonestar
fonestar's picture

That the US would be far behind in Bitcoin technology and the most hostile towards it doesn't surprise me at all as the US was the epicenter of the world's biggest financial crimes in recorded history.  I guess the fake libertarians won't be getting crumbs thrown from Lloyd and Jamie's daily bread anymore?  Shame, shame.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:14 | 4171767 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

Please change your name to "bitcoinstar".

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:35 | 4171821 fonestar
fonestar's picture

No, the name fonestar goes back to the days of the Motorola AnalOG bag fones.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:07 | 4171919 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

Digi-Shekl

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:13 | 4171763 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Yep. But luckily, you can still get free bitcoins at http://freebitco.in/?r=25727 . So no need to start crying yet!

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:19 | 4171781 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Whatever happens to Bitcoin...it's been fascinating to watch.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:24 | 4171959 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Indeed it has and that joke definitely isn't funny anymore.  Caught Johnny Marr earlier this year and he was superb!

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:23 | 4172096 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Indeed, Meat Hammer and TeamDepends!

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:53 | 4171689 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Just to be fair, Mr. Bitcoin thinks Mr Bondy has made money illegal and dangerous, and he may have a point there.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:13 | 4171764 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Don't buy Bitcoins, it's a Ponzi, can be easily hacked, bla bla bla.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:58 | 4172040 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Don't buy bitcoins, China's got an EMP device, can easily destroy wallets held under the airspace over american cities, bla bla bla, and the suns magnetic reversal will change all 1s to 0s and vice versa, reversing all transactions all the way back to Satoshi, bla bla bla.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:26 | 4172105 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

"Don't buy bitcoins..."

Right.  Start a business (tee-shirts or some shit) and accept bitcoins.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:59 | 4171865 Metal Minded
Metal Minded's picture

Coinbase is fine for buying BTC. You link your checking account to your Coinbase account. They do have various limits(both buying and selling), which can be increased to a degree, the more info you give them. Not where I care to trade. I buy there and then move them to trading exchanges. Be sure and set up Coinbase's 2FA(two factor authentication) before you transfer money to your account or buy or store BTC at Coinbase. 2FA is a must anywhere online to do with cryptocurrency. No 2FA, go elsewhere.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:53 | 4172011 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

They have a reputation for not delivering when you buy before the price goes up, even reversing after the bank cleared.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:56 | 4172174 tsx500
tsx500's picture

u may have a good chance of buying under 450 (MtGox price) imminently (as in within hours of this message) ... grab its straight  northbound from there .    u can thank me tomorrow .... (its 610 right now)

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:18 | 4172361 aminorex
aminorex's picture

I am very interested to know how you predicted that.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 03:46 | 4172656 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

maybe http://redd.it/1r1dmk.  There was a lot of similar chatter going on and a big sale did go through.  The Gox engine choked and it showed up as 36k coins but I believe only 6-8k sold, sending it down $100.   Bought some.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:47 | 4171673 6th of May
6th of May's picture

ANONYMITY??? ... Bitcoin is not anonymous - try ZEROCOIN when it's ready

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:50 | 4171681 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

the newest crypto-currency is invisicoin................send ur fiat into a black hole, never to be seen again......

www.invisicoin.com

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:08 | 4171751 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

I'm getting nothing from that link. Is it correct?

Over.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:43 | 4172010 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

It's so invisible it can't be found...

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:42 | 4172142 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Still nothing. Can you guys please check that link cuz it's just not working for me.

Is it my ISP? Cuz if those somebitchez are blocking my freedoms I'm going to crack some skulls!

Over.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:54 | 4172442 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

It must be in another dimension, right now - hypercyberspace, or something.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:41 | 4172496 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

I think Bitcoin is stupid. You can't hold it in your hand right? And it's not backed by anything. I heard that there will be solar flares that wipe out all Bitcoins. And anyway, it's just used for terrorism 'n such. (NOTE: Please, please people keep saying this stuff, I need to accumulate more before the last die-hard non-believer capitulates).

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 02:51 | 4172610 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Nice try (no luck, though)...

The problem: Bitcoin is not private

The Bitcoin payment network offers a highly decentralized mechanism for creating and transferring electronic cash around the world. Unfortunately, Bitcoin suffers from a major limitation: since transactions are stored in a public ledger (called the “block chain”) it may be possible to trace the history of any given payment — even years after the fact. Worse, since the Bitcoin ledger is public, any party can recover this information and data mine to identify users and patterns in the transactions. In other words: Bitcoin transactions are conducted in public.

The Bitcoin protocol and clients address this in two ways: (1) all Bitcoin transactions are conducted using public keys as identifiers, and these public keys are not linked to individual names. And (2) Bitcoin clients are capable of generating many public keys (“identities”) to help users resist tracking. Unfortunately, a growing body of research indicates that these protections are insufficient. This information may allow data miners to link individual transactions, identify related payments, and otherwise trace the activities of Bitcoin users.

The most common solution to this problem is to use Bitcoin laundries – services that mix together many users’ bitcoins in order to obfuscate the transaction history. Laundries suffer from a number of potential drawbacks, however, as they must be trusted to return coins. Moreover a compromised or malicious laundry offers no anonymity.

(http://zerocoin.org/)

Also: Bitcoin's Vast Overvaluation Appears Caused By Price-Fixing - Falkvinge on Infopolicy

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:07 | 4172334 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"the newest crypto-currency is invisicoin"

lol...well played sir.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:58 | 4171707 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

True dat! Please incorporate http://zerocoin.org into all future forks. Also please migrate upward off of 256 to 512 or dare I say 1024.

TY Zerocoin!

Over.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:17 | 4171779 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

I already have zerocoin thanks to the markets (or what passes as markets).

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:59 | 4172016 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

PPcoin for those on the go. </s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPCoin

I'm waiting for PoohPoohCoin. There are 60 cryptocurrencies now and counting. You have to have a ton of technical knowledge to sort thru the pros and cons. For every expert who loves it there's one who hates it.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:50 | 4171679 Number 156
Number 156's picture

Love it or not, you cant trade bitcoins with your neighbor when TSHTF. You might as well have gold certificates out of Comex. You guys are crazy.

 

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:06 | 4171743 The Abstraction...
The Abstraction of Justice's picture

I accept bitcoins from my neighbours, and will do so when TSHTF, as long as as bitcoins are still worth something.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:13 | 4172061 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

 

as long as as bitcoins are still worth something.

If anything HTF, I don't think bitcoins would be high on people's priority list.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:10 | 4171755 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

You don't use stores of wealth (like gold, or presumably, BitCoin) after the SHTF-- you HIDE them. You will be trading with whiskey, eggs, flour, rice, toilet paper, jerrycans of gas, etc.

You only use your stores of wealth AFTER the economy has started to rebuild itself again.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 03:40 | 4172651 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

precisely, you disappear for a week then come back and tell everything was stolen this cant be happening, etcetc.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:15 | 4171771 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Yeah....you can. Never heard of a stationary bike, alternator, car battery, and router? Long stationary bikes.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:20 | 4171784 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

Question:  If BTC fluctuated between $200 and $1,000 for the year and oil fluctuated between $90 and $100 for the year, how much gas can I buy, at any given time, with a bitcoin?

 

Answer:  None, because no filling station where I live will take a bitcoin for payment.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:24 | 4171794 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Yet...

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:42 | 4171838 Matt
Matt's picture

Your local gas station probably doesn't take gold, silver, or food either, so don't save any of those, either, just put everything into dollars and treasuries!

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:48 | 4172025 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

They take Treasurys now? Just how much is gas where you live?

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 11:14 | 4173337 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Should anyone be surprised that the future of Bitcoin is in Asia?  When so many Americans seem hostile towards mathematics, cryptography and genius?

In your brave new world, you really believe people are going to sit around waiting for the Wells Fargo wagon to pull into town with your gold bars as payment?  Sorry, I hate (love) to burst your bubble but people are going to expect faster electronic payment than before.  They are going to want more technological innovation, not less.

There's always going to be currency as well as money in this world.  Right now Bitcoin is the strongest and most advanced currency on Earth.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 06:29 | 4172762 StandardDeviant
StandardDeviant's picture

Depends on which S hits which F.

If you're talking about the Zombie Apocalypse, then no, BTC won't help much (nor will large bars of gold or silver).

But think of a Cyprus-like scenario, with sudden freezes on bank accounts followed by asset seizures; or an Argentinian one, with controls on capital movement.  The ability to transfer money in/out of the country at will, anonymously or otherwise, is not something to take for granted.

(As a bonus, if played out in a large country such as the US or UK you can imagine the effect that such a scenario would have on the BTC price.)

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 10:59 | 4173276 fonestar
fonestar's picture

What if your neighbours do not live in United States?  And even if they do, why not?  Bitcoin is a global currency.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:51 | 4171686 xamax
xamax's picture

Bitcoin or not Bitcoin, we still see the s&p's at 1900 by year end.
Our 2014 target is however 2400.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:35 | 4171819 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Abby is that you?

Over.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:53 | 4171688 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

Government can't understand what it ostensibly was founded for in the first place. Freedom. And that should be the most telling part of any of this. The U.S.A. is no longer the land of any kind of freedom. You have at best "provisional" freedom. If you tried to actually use your rights in a way that is objectional to the corporations or government, you'd find out really fast how little you have.

Its like the conundrum, registering for a permit to protest. That's bollocks. You just have the goddamn protest, don't queue up at a government office somewhere to get permission to speak. That's just one example of what is very wrong in the U.S.

As for Bitcoin, they'll bumble and flail around while the rest of the world assesses the situation and adopts or rejects. But from what has been happening lately, the rest of the world senses an opportunity to tell those privileged empire-builders to go and truly fuck off.

Your move, USA.

 

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:34 | 4172260 carlin401
carlin401's picture

A who's who is of world-wide assholes of the highest order, are already owners of BTC, ( winkelvoss twins, ... facebook money, google money, twitter money ... ) aka NSA money

Anybody that thinks that the the current BTC is a anti-fascist, is a moron.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 11:02 | 4173294 fonestar
fonestar's picture

What you are saying makes no sense.  Google, the Mellon family and others may be trying to steer the project but we can alway fork.  I am not upgrading my client until something clear comes about.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:54 | 4171696 HulkHogan
HulkHogan's picture

BUBBLE. BTC is a bubble. (There, now I'm done talking about it... forever.)

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:37 | 4171830 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

It may or may not be. As hostile as I am to the premise (yes, this Luddite does not appreciate the digital, hence ethereal and potentially insecure nature), I am not upset that the speculators are doing extremely well. I do however take offense at the notion that BTC is now being called a "store of value". MY ASS. The 21M limit is coded in, not a mathematical limit. "By agreement" blah blah, all the bullshit that fiat money was "bound by" etc. No thanks. I prefer my stores of value to have physical limitations. Otherwise, carry on and congrats to all making buku profit.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:55 | 4171886 bulldung
bulldung's picture

I am also opined that Bitcoin is a bubble the likes of which haven't been seen since tulip bulbs were a store of value.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:23 | 4171961 shitco.in
shitco.in's picture

The way we view it, the USD is actually the bubble.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:28 | 4172111 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Lullaby for HulkHogan and all the lonely bears out there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TuFy0fcuw

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:20 | 4172226 HulkHogan
HulkHogan's picture

beautiful!

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:34 | 4172262 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Be sure to tip her some BTC  ;)  I did.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 01:01 | 4172513 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

Hilarious.  Here's her other number:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ku1A5Ox8U  I like this one even better.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:55 | 4171697 beegle
beegle's picture

in other news part of jp morgans fine will be tax deductible ! you have to laugh ... americans deserve every bit of shit they get ... unbelievable 

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:06 | 4172062 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Do I write the tax code? Blame the assholes @ the IRS, not the average US citizen that cringes in fear each year after hitting the 'send' button.

That being said, it is logical that if you make $x, then lose $y, you will end up paying less tax. They just don't get to spend the $y on party hats-it goes straight to the .gov. Which is owned by the...wait for it...IRS.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:56 | 4171704 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

"Based on the way they stacked the witness list, the message they’re sending is clear: digital currencies like Bitoin equate to crime, terrorism, and child exploitation."

Ummm...news flash:  The powers that be, i.e. Globalist scum ARE the criminals, terrorists, child exploiters/molesters/kidnappers/killers/pedophiles, etc.  They just don't like anyone else stepping on their good times.

 

I think the Globalists like Bitcoin to a certain extent...

1. it's combats the dollar and I'm thinking the Globalists are all for eventually crashing the dollar and replacing it as the world's reserve currency with their own something or other...

2. what might that something or other be?  Well, I think we all know the Globalists want to move the entire world to a digital currency because they can control every aspect of our lives once everything is digital.  They're setting up the control grid now and SkyNet will surveil us night and day...if we do or say things wrong we will immediately be penalized, etc., etc.

3. I get this bad feeling Bitcoin or other digital currencies, if not already secretly created by the Globalists, then they will figure out a way to co-opt those digital currencies in order to blend them into the type of digital currency the Globalists want to use to control the world with.

4. I also think what the Globalists are moving towards is a carbon currency or energy currency.  They will use carbon or energy units to control our consumption and everything about our lives which will then dictate how many carbon or energy credits will be alotted in order to survive with.

This shit was all game-planned by them decades ago.  Something like Bitcoins, whether created by the Globalists or by some free entity/computer programmer were always in their plans.  They will eventually try to take it over and use it against us in the worst ways possible.

Just a theory...but I certainly don't think they're scared of it...they will always figure out how to "weaponize" it against us while they get richer and gain more power and control over the world. 

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:56 | 4171706 Number 156
Number 156's picture

Bitcoin followers beware.

Joe Kennedy speaks from the grave to you:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1996/04/15/211503/

 

 

 

 

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 12:31 | 4173661 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

LOL, that link was from 1996-- a great time to sell stocks! /sarc

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 18:59 | 4171711 GoldMeUp
GoldMeUp's picture

Litecoin & others aren't "second generation".  They're just cheap clones of bitcoin.  Bitcoin is the state of the art.  Some alts are interesting but they are in no way "second generation".  We need the first generation to grow up first.... it's still an infant :)

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:37 | 4171832 thecoloredsky
thecoloredsky's picture

If ltc is a clone of btc wouldn't that make ltc state of the art?

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:46 | 4171856 Matt
Matt's picture

Well, litecoin uses a different cryptography than bitcoin, so you have to uses General Purpose Computing on a CPU or GPU for litecoin at this time. That means using hundreds of times more electricity to achieve the same level of network security.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:40 | 4172000 thecoloredsky
thecoloredsky's picture

So basically sha256 cryptocoins are a better bet in general? Just trying to make sense of it all.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:43 | 4172497 Matt
Matt's picture

If you are planning on spending real money - like hundreds or thousands of dollars - bitcoin is the most established coin out there. If you just want to mine some coins yourself withoiut spending a fortune on equipment, litecoin or other scrypt coins are a reasonable proposition.

I don't understand the Proof of Stake coins or any of the other cryptographic coins, like Prime numbers or other exotic or blended methods.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:00 | 4171717 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Katy Perry sings "Hot N Cold" with Elmo on Sesame Street!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHROHJlU_Ng (2:33)

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:00 | 4171719 conspicio
conspicio's picture

Just wait until the mining pools are controlled by the government(s). Rather than some skinny dudes in Bangalore with a thousand xbox motherboards and 23 air conditioners, bitcoin will be mined at the fantastic new data center in Utah. Eventually, the government(s) will control this thing. To think otherwise is ill advised. Until then, the wild wild west.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:42 | 4171839 peruchocanuck
peruchocanuck's picture

conspicio I thought exaclty the same, maybe the FED and the Chinese gov are the ones buying bitcoins right how, the idea is to be the troyan horse and destroy it from within . 

How?

"Economic Majority" is the key:

"...The miner's code could be modified to change the rules and grant any number of coins but that block then would be relayed to peers.  Since that change breaks the protocol, peer nodes would reject that block as being invalid and then would not relay it.  


Now if other nodes run the same change and thus accept that block, they will relay it but it still doesn't matter if nobody will buy those mined coins.

So there would be a reason for enough people (an "economic majority") to decide that the change is wanted and to be willing to buy those coins from the miner.

But if you hold bitcoins, you wouldn't want those to be devalued and thus would reject the change.

And if you have borrowed coins and have to repay, and the lender will refuse any coins issued after the change occurred, then you won't buy those coins from the miners either.

So yes ... technically it is as easy as changing one line of code.  But getting the economic majority to accept the change is the hard part (essentially the impossible part, for the change you are suggesting)."

(from " How hard is the 21 million cap on bitcoin?" discussion on bitcoin talk)

When the author of this comment says "...But if you hold bitcoins, you wouldn't want those to be devalued and thus would reject the change.", he is missing this part "...UNLESS YOU ARE THE FED AND/OR OTHER CENTRAL BANKS AROUND THE WOLRD"

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:49 | 4171868 Matt
Matt's picture

If the bitcoin community discovered such a plot, they could simply fork the chain and ignore all work coming from the government nodes.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:22 | 4171952 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

divide et impera.

Given that only faith and/or greed supports the value of Bitcoin, as opposed to a nuclear navy and giant grey war complex- intentionally forking the blockchain should only be considered in the same vein as cutting off one's left nut in order to save the right nut.

if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every battle

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:44 | 4172501 Matt
Matt's picture

I suppose that is why free market capitalism inevitably gets corrupted into a fascist state.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:45 | 4172280 conspicio
conspicio's picture

The value of the total global holdings of bitcoin are what... $3-5B -ish at current values? Even if it cost $10B or $20B to gain a majority interest, chump play for any central bank. Then they slowly buy the mining pools out of existence. All of this distributed forking horseshit. Give me break. Everyone has a price and the central banks will laugh as they "make it rain" to shut this down via majority control inside and on the production side in the current form. The Cornell paper from Eyal and Sirer is spot on. Put the 2/3 rule into bitcoin or die as a currency.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:37 | 4172400 YuShun
YuShun's picture

Yes, a central bank (or a group of them) could spend tens of billions to gain a majority interest,
but what if the BRICS countries did not want to let them (the NATO countries) do it,
or decided to create a rival that they would dominate?  
Did Eyal & Sirer discuss this?

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 12:34 | 4173674 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

How on earth do they buy that many BitCoins without the price moving against them in a MAJOR way??

You are making some heroic assumptions.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:08 | 4171921 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

And this is probably why the NSA and CIA will need a $500 billion price tag each  in their budget(s) in order to equip a new pair of data centers that just handle BTC transactions.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:52 | 4172004 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

Bitcoin Open to Takeover, Researchers Discover With New Algorithm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131104112234.htm

 

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:14 | 4171765 TheUnwisestWizard
TheUnwisestWizard's picture

it's a good day to buy gold  - not many deals on ebay not much for sale to be honest... Sure one can pay a premium of $50 per ounce - once the supply dries up a bit more, expect gold to shoot up and BtC to stagnate - they will keep it around like a pinyata full of candy but anyone with any real sense buys physical precious metal or rare commodities that cannot be created out of thin air.  I'm long vintage fiesta and gold/silver own no BtC and will probably never unless 7-11 takes them as payment.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:12 | 4171934 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

Wow. I am reading Bitcoin advice from people who recall the introduction of the polio vaccine and who buy their gold on eBay.

Zero hedge has jumped the shark. Might as well just go read reddit. At least I know what I am dealing with there.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:01 | 4172180 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Take a pill dude.What the guy is saying is not that radical. He simply wants a quick, easy way to get rid of it for an asset like all people do.

But that is what's exciting. I've talked to a few people my age (older than you) and some your age and most of them have never heard of BC. They actually thought I was nuts. It's in it's infancy, some early ons have got rich and some have lost a bundle, but shit happens. When you can go down to 7-11 and buy a Red Bull, the thing will have already skyrocketed.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:07 | 4172197 tsx500
tsx500's picture

cool...see 'ya later !

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:15 | 4171773 KingFiat
KingFiat's picture

I think bitcoin can be great for transactions, but is not so great for investment. So I hold only a few btcoins. Many flames for and against, and most of the people flaming on both sides do IMHO not really understand bitcoin. But it looks like a bubble to me right now.

Enter this guy, who previously said he invested all his funds in bitcoin, and thus wants the value to rise. But he is warning that the current valuation is too high, and that this small market looks manipulated: http://falkvinge.net/2013/09/13/bitcoins-vast-overvaluation-seems-to-be-...

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:15 | 4171938 Silver Bully
Silver Bully's picture

'I think bitcoin can be great for transactions, but is not so great for investment.'

You, sir, are close to the keys to the kingdom: understanding MONEY (not currency).

What is money?

Money, REAL money is 2 things:

1. A means of exchange

2. A store of value

Most fiat currencies today are really, really good at #1, but are absolutely lethal to your wealth if you use them as #2.

Now consider for a minute your arcade game tokens, er, bitcoin as a STORE OF VALUE, not a means of exchange. Do you think bitcoin will be worth the same a year from now? More? Or less? Honest money means its value will remain relatively unchanged. Both the creditor and the debtor can rely on it so BOTH are not screwed (by the money, anyway).

Oh, and consider your opinion today versus a year from now. Or 2 years. Or 20 years. What did you think a bitcoin was worth this time last year? Or in 2010? Gold has been around for 5,000 years. People rely on it because they have valued it the same way for several millenia, despite the rise and fall of countless empires. How about bitcoin? Oh, it's been around since 2009, huh? And now it is going through a glaringly obvious blow off top due to speculation, huh?

Yeah. That's a reliable store of value all right. Good luck convincing people with two brain cells that it is reliable, honest money. Speculate with it all you want. But don't try to convince me it's MONEY. It's a currency. It's unsurpassed as a flexible means of exchange . . . but you are a moonbat if you think I'll store my wealth in it.

That's what GOLD is for.

 

 

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:42 | 4172009 carlin401
carlin401's picture

Well for all time you had to have 'specialized knowledge' to get rich, and be in the right place at the right time.

On the subject of wealth, 99% of all rich folk made their money in real-estate, and by that I mean after they got rich on some pet-rock, they took that cash and bought land or farm-land, ... and waited.

Holding CASH your money will always evaporate, of course when your over 50, and see only a few years later, its best to hold cash.

But honest talk of holding cash, there is only SGD, CHF, and NOK,... let's be honest here when the ZH herds are done pumping&dumping BTC, it will be back to $10 or less.

For those youngsters smart enough to jump the band-wagon, and create their own crypto-currency and get dick zero heads to pump it for you, be sure to buy all the real estate you can while the money is flowing, cuz when the game is over, you need to holding something 'real'.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:16 | 4171774 q99x2
q99x2's picture

The first nation to adopt BitCoin as their national currency will be the next empire of the world.

I hope it isn't Greece.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:51 | 4171873 Matt
Matt's picture

That country would have to acquire a decent stake in the coins, and then issue them to their citizens in exchange for their old currency. A nation might be better of coming up with its own cryptocurrency, and giving all of its citizens an equal chance to acquire mining equipment. That way, the new money is distributed amongst the citizens, rather than being focused into the hands of a few banks.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:13 | 4171937 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

Their own fiat pegged to the bitcoin.

That'll do it.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:23 | 4172375 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

If Greece citizens adopted bitcoin as their defacto curency for everyday use, how could that actually work? Some sort of encripted Iphone app? If it could be done practically, it would have by now.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:05 | 4172458 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Yes, plenty of Android Bitcoin wallet apps exist. The increasing number of merchants accepting Bitcoin for goods and services will be a major news story next year.  It just takes time...  There's an awesome photo of my hand paying Bitcoin for dinner as reported by Wired Magazine.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:25 | 4171775 devo
devo's picture

Why wouldn't someone just use litecoin or one of the dozen other crypto-currencies? It's 7 bucks and does exactly the same things.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:53 | 4171881 Zero Point
Zero Point's picture

Much more useful to a non speculator. Didn't even know of alternatives.

Nice to know, thanks!

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:03 | 4171909 devo
devo's picture

No problem. Some of them aren't traded on Mt. Gox or popular exchanges yet, but once they are the bitcoin will be back under $10. What is driving it is speculation on the exchanges, not demand for the coins for legit transactions, because that can be done via any of the other currencies.

Another huge problem of these currencies, and what will cause failure, is that there's no recourse if anything goes wrong with a transaction. e.g. I would never buy one for $600, buy goods, and then hope some criminal on the other end actually mails them. It is a racket perpetuated by cyberdorks who see a chance to have their day in the sun. If an actual cryptocurrency becomes legit, it will lose anonymity, so the problem is and will always be completion of the transaction. What you see in the price action is pure speculation on exchanges by traders. I know this because the currencies not on the exchanges are cheap. So it is not a reflection of demand for use in transactions.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:53 | 4172167 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Because, sonny boy, back in my day before all these fancy dancy credit cards and consumer protection regulators out the whazoo, there was something called "caveat emptor", buyer beware.  When I was going to buy something, I had to be damn sure what I was getting and from whom.  Nowadays youngins be throwing money around teh internets as if it dropped from helicopters. It comes around and bites me as hidden costs and transaction fees.

Competing virtual currencies are great, it strengthens the whole system and the best will survive.  Today in front of Congress BitPay kept repeating they manage 12,000 merchants using Bitcoin.  Coinbase has similar numbers and countless merchants are doing DIY Bitcoin payments.  Compared to Bitcoin, Litecoin has a lot less hashing power protecting it.  Some virtual currencies (Feathercoin) have been destroyed through 51% attacks.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 04:43 | 4172700 carlin401
carlin401's picture

I do agree with you on that all you BTC fuckheads can all cannibilize one another and wait until who is that last man standing.

 

Given your all using the same susceptible technology for 'attacks', and given that you will all kill the competition by giving them a bad name, ther is no doubt that everyone in the crypto-currency world will fuck each other to death to get their 'share of suckers'.

 

In the end, when the word is out that everyone is a fucker, ... there will be no vendors to accept the shit, and no suckers to put real money into the system.

Like I said earlier all these unused mining machines will soon be turned into attack machines, and the whole fucking BTC fraud people will start seeing all the shit evaporate before their eyes.

With NO FUCKING recourse.

 

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:48 | 4172504 TradingTroll
TradingTroll's picture

devo

 

sorry thats horeshit about no recourse

 

shopify just turned on Bitcoin for 70,000 merchants. Do you think Shopify and all its merchants are going to take a bath?

 

Back to grade schoool for you

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 04:39 | 4172698 carlin401
carlin401's picture

yep, you have been conditioned 'no recourse', just another reason to use a credit card, because then its the banks problem,

 

when the exchange goes down your BTC is gone, ... its all non-recourse, and once you BUY something your fucked, ... yep a really nice new world you fuck heads have created for yourselves,

 

But I understand here in Asia, you buy something you don't bring it back, like in the USA.

 

***

 

Yes, people take a bath all the time, and they raise the prices to pay for that bath, its called biz,

 

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 04:35 | 4172693 carlin401
carlin401's picture

Mt-Gox is the ultimate trojan horse for the  non-aware, just a fucking honey-trap.

 

Everybody is creating BTC, or fake 'coin', but nobody wants to give you real money back... Even the mt-gox bid/ask is a joke, in terms of time and return.

 

Probably another reason for the 'fake' buildup of BTC is keep folks in, because once the redemptions begin, it will go down below $10 and quick,... today it dropped $900 to $500, but most of the withdrawls take day's so we don't even know how many sell orders are in the queue,

 

It may already be too late to get any money back, and  you would never know.

 

 

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:39 | 4171780 ToNYC
ToNYC's picture

China likes the Bitcoin transaction lead generation, following the money. A Fascist tool is never ignored.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 04:31 | 4172689 carlin401
carlin401's picture

FASCISM by definition is corporations and government, and that can only happen in the USA and Europe.

 

CHINA is 100% communist government. China doesn't have to fucking listen to the corporations.

 

USA is 100% FASCISM. In the USA the corporations contorl the government.

 

***

I think given that the USD will collapse the CHINA government is wise in telling its people to buy gold and bitcoin.

***

 

When BTC goes up in means the USD is going down. Just like GOLD, if GOLD goes up, then the USD is going down, that is the correct way to see things.

 

 

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:20 | 4171785 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

Tyler, how much are you getting paid to promote bitcoin?

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:27 | 4171800 devo
devo's picture

Seriously, this is sad.

Every other crypto-currency $1-10. Bitcoin $600-1k. All have the SAME advantage (anonymity, unregulated, etc). Litecoin is actually faster. Just shows how pathetic this pump and dump is and how big a sucker these people are, buying from Max Keiser, the Winklevoss dorks, and apparently the Tylers.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:45 | 4171849 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:55 | 4171884 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Exactly,

Anyone can create a crypto currency. There is no barrier to entry and nothing to protect the sanctuary.

It's success will be its downfall.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:37 | 4171993 carlin401
carlin401's picture

Any highly intelligent technologist can create his own 'coin' ( high tech chain letter )

But only an honest person will succeed, and only a true P2P will exist over the long term.

Like the Mt-Gox situation, just a fucking 'bank' like Chase, and then the 'attackers' will eventually get the 'coin' ( chain letters ), when they're all kept in one place.

The original design by Satoshi will stand, the problem is the 'bitcoin org' has become political, just like wash-dc, and has designed the 'mining', and 'pooling', and 'exchange' world, in Satoshi's orginal design there was none of this.

So in essence the original P2P crypto-currency has already be co-opted by fucking assholes.

Out of the mess of 1,000's of 'coins' will come a few honest and real people who offer a true P2P system, that cannot be controlled by gubmint, and taxed by one man.

What we don't need in crypt-currency world is more bill gates and billionaires, what we need is 100% free transfer of our money, with no gubmint over-sight or control, and no ass hole stealing a percentage of our money at every turn.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:58 | 4171894 Matt
Matt's picture

Bitcoin has wide spread adoption; the infrastructure for alt coins is not really there. I am certain that the creators of bitcoin did not choose 600-second target times arbitrarily.

The lower the block time, the easier it is for an attacker to gain control, or for a smaller group to simply monopolize money creation. What happens is, if you have a fast enough machine, if you find a block and then someone else does right after, your block gets accepted and theirs becomes an orphan. Then, while they are flushing out the work they wasted, you find another block, and it turns into a streak where one fast miner or pool is constantly ahead of everyone else.

I tried mining some alternate coins with 30 and 45 second block times, and found that it was possible to be stuck in  state of constantly throwing away work due to someone else having a faster machine, and the difficulty not rising fast enough, so a block was being found every couple seconds.

With litecoin, anyone with a large cluster of regular CPUs could easily create a 51% attack; I'll look into how difficult and costly it would be to hire out cloud services to equal the total network power.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:09 | 4171926 devo
devo's picture

I think the days of solo mining are over for all crypto coins, right? Those are the early adopters who are selling at these ridiculous prices now.

Is what you mention an issue if mining in a pool?

Again, just look at the ones trading on these low volume exchanges. It is clearly speculation, not demand for actual transactions. The early adopters created a narrative people are buying.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:24 | 4171962 carlin401
carlin401's picture

The major pools are getting one block a day, with 100's million of hashes, its now impossible for a solo miner to mine,

So essentially the 'pools' are now banks, and even then the efficiency of mining is kapoot. That's why everybody has left bitcoin mining and gone to the smaller 'coins'.

The reason that BTC goes up is there is no market to sell it, and the entry is only to BUY, and the mining was kapoot back in April 2013.

Let the USA embrace BITCOIN, and tax the shit out of it and regulate, and then watch to see what HK does, or better yet the real anarchist community.

Today's "pools" and "exchanges" are no different than 'banks' that all of you hate.

The problem is we need to go back to SOLO mining, and true P2P, take out the fucking middleman, because that is where the USA government will go for control.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:00 | 4172055 devo
devo's picture

The pools/banks charge miners a fee, too, right? At least the majority that I researched. Agree with the P2P, etc, but the problem is once it becomes popular either the crooks or govt step in.

This bitcoin thing reminds me of my friends harvesting virtual crops in Farmville. Go out and buy a real coin, dorks.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:22 | 4172093 carlin401
carlin401's picture

Yes, pools charge a 'fee', just like an ATM or a bank.

Exchanges charge a fee, just like a fucking ATM, and you know they will go up, up, up once they have monopoly hold, and they will be bought up by BIG fucking assholes like GOOGLE(tm).

A true p2p can never be sold, this is really a god damn fucking war,

Satoshi's 'bitcoin' has been stolen by the god-damn fucking assholes, the orginal bitcoin was pure and a good idea, so just maybe the 'lite-coin' with the same code, but using a different hash-algo that is more egalitarian, now SHA gives the chinese an advantage to mine, as the ASIC's are made in china.

The orginal bitcoin was 100% pure P2P, and along came the fucking assholes who put in tollbooths ( exchanges, and pools ), ... that is where the crooks hang-out, and that is where the gubmints will tax ( destroy ).

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:48 | 4172149 devo
devo's picture

That's what I see, too, from my limited research. I probably didn't have to research it at all. Bernanke endorsed it, so you know it's bad.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 21:57 | 4172175 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

"It is clearly speculation"

Speculating on the future value of an industry is a valid investment strategy.  Reference: venture capital funds.


Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:11 | 4172340 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

And what industry would that be? Bitcoin is literally nothing but a can of steam - more suited to mis-venture capital.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 23:31 | 4172388 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Oh, just 3 industries off the top of my head...

Currencies: Bitcoin willing to take on any and all currencies worldwide and their central banks.

Payment Processors: Credit cards, Paypal, Western Union, meet the new guy in town.

Banks: who needs em?  "Be your own bank"

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:02 | 4172450 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

LOL meet gullible.

Btc is a ponzi by definition, so using banks as comparison is entirely accurate; it doesn't produce anything, though, so it's not an industry - at best, it's a service... unfortunately, not to the honest, decent people at large...

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:15 | 4172469 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

industry... service industry... whatever.

Your post doesn't deserve a response but...

If your definition of a Ponzi is anything that, when demand decreases, loses value... then Gold and BTC are both Ponzi schemes.  However, the quantity of Gold and BTC neither decreases or increases as individuals join or leave the market.  Actually the scarcity of gold is diluted as more Miners ramp up to satisfy increasing demand, not so Bitcoin.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 02:57 | 4172618 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Latecomers rewarding early adopters - Ponzi pretty much defined. Don't quite see how gold fits in that description.

Anyway, yawn....

 

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 04:24 | 4172647 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

I don't get it.  Any new thing of value has to be distributed equally to everybody simultaneously (avoiding the early adopter/latecomer conundrum) so as to avoid the Ponzi moniker?  Where's my frickin' IBM and Google shares, Comrade?

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 06:26 | 4172758 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Exactly! Shares are placed on the market in bulk, to give everyone the same chance; btc/ponzis do exactly the opposite, to maximized profit for earlytakers at the expense of late arrivals - get it now?

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 08:00 | 4172819 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Where do Larry Page and Sergey Brin fit in?  

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 08:09 | 4172831 carlin401
carlin401's picture

All are on the NSA/CIA payroll.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 08:44 | 4172927 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Well, Bitcoin's "initial public offering" was 03/Jan/2009. It has always been publicly offered for anybody to mine or buy the asset: BTC.  It is only natural that an asset increases in value over time as demand increases (actually losing 40% of value today, haha!)

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 21:05 | 4175831 thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

I'd rather reward directly a creator for his idea, whether it'd be Larry, Sergey, Mark, or "Satoshi", than speculator middlemen who contributed nothing to it.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 04:25 | 4172686 carlin401
carlin401's picture

I agree this guy is some kind of troll equating physical gold with paper wealth, he must be think of ETF gold.

 

Even Satoshi defines the bit-coin as a 'signature chain' of bit's (computer). A fucking high-tech chain letter, that is passed around the last guy get nothing and only the first in get the loot. It's called a pyramid scam.

The problem is the kids these days never heard of 'chain letters', but they were a big deal when I was a kid. They were pyramid scams.

 

A ponzi is when you buy something, and the guy uses late investors to pay interest to the newbies, this is why MADOFF is a ponzi.

But BTC is a chain-letter, and SATOSHI in his first paper defines it as such.

 

End of fucking story.

 

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 04:35 | 4172692 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

You are equating the blockchain with a chain letter.  That is all. I'm outta here. 

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 08:07 | 4172829 carlin401
carlin401's picture

Yes, run like hell troll, because Satoshi himself liken's the block-chain, to a 'chain-letter', no fucking difference, just cuz it runs a computer doesn't mean its not fraud.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:12 | 4171931 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Why can't Joe Schmoe do a 'save as' of the Bitcoin architecture call it Bitcoin2 and release another crypto currency?

If it looks like Bitcoin and sounds like Bitcoin, why shouldn't it trade at parity?

There are now 21m Bitcoin's and 21m Bitcoin2's

So the address space is compartmentalised, but if these identical currencies trade at parity why does that matter?

How is this different to inflation?

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 22:01 | 4172179 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Go for it, nothing is stopping you investing your time trying it out. Suggestion: get your copy-cat listed on BTC-E along with all the others and see if anybody will buy it.  Also be prepared for when some bored Miners point their equipment at your currency and utterly destroy it.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 00:24 | 4172476 digitalhermit
digitalhermit's picture

So the address space is compartmentalised, but if these identical currencies trade at parity why does that matter?

Ah, but they don't trade at parity. In fact, due to network effect the sum of market caps of all alt-coins is a tiny fraction of the market cap of Bitcoin. Will this change? Time will tell.

http://coinmarketcap.com/

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:35 | 4171823 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Why can't someone launch Bitcoin 2.0? An identical copy of Bitcoin.

It would be exactly the same and do exactly the same thing and work in exactly the same way. What is to stop people from ripping off the idea?

It's basically like the dotcom bubble, where there were this huge valuations but then some kid would show up with an identical service 6 months later running it off a laptop in his dorm.

What are the barriers that protect Bitcoin from copycat currencies?

Is anyone obliged to use bitcoins in the way we are obliged to accept legal tender? No.

The copyright for the code isn't even protected as the author doesn't exist!

Once the miners exhaust bitcoins, they will start mining litecoins (gotta do something with their chips) and the miners will put their money into PR for litecoins. Suddenly litecoins will rocket as an alternative.

It's a pure Ponzi scheme, there is no mechanism of value creation and you need more and more new investors to keep driving up the price.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 19:52 | 4171874 devo
devo's picture

As I said, it's not just litecoins, but there are dozens of currencies that carry all the benefits of BTC, at a fraction of the cost. BTC likes to act like having 21mil coins somehow limits their inflation, but really that is bullshit, because 1BTC can be broken down 8 decimal places, so you can actually own 00000001 of a coin.

It is a very clear pump and dump by Max Keiser, Dork twins, etc. It is amazing there are people stupid enough to believe some of the terrible arguments out there (e.g. that they have intrinsic value, can't be regulated, etc).

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:07 | 4171917 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

The ability to break something down into tiny fractions doesn't mean you can inflate the supply.

You can't inflate the supply of oil by breaking it down into 1/10 of a barrel.

But with Bitcoin you can create 21million more bitcoins simply by doing a "save as" of the entire architecture and calling it Bitcoin2.

You have just doubled the address space. Now let's assume as these two currencies are identical, they trade at parity.

That's inflatable, in fact it's the same as USD.

Tue, 11/19/2013 - 20:21 | 4171951 devo
devo's picture

True, it's dilution not inflation. But that will harm buyers on a % basis.

Wed, 11/20/2013 - 01:57 | 4172549 Mike Hunt III
Mike Hunt III's picture

"BTC likes to act like having 21mil coins somehow limits their inflation, but really that is bullshit, because 1BTC can be broken down 8 decimal places, so you can actually own 00000001 of a coin "

If I give money (one dollar)to three groups, all with the same number of people in them:

Group A: 4 quarters
Group B: 20 Nickels
Group C: 10 dimes

Which group has the most/least dollars
Is one groups money more diluted than the others?

Now with one Bitcoin...
Group A: (4) .25 bitcoin
Group B: (20) .05 bitcoin
Group C: (10) .10 bitcoin

Which group has the most/least money (bitcoin)?
Is one groups money(bitcoin) more diluted than the others?

Answer: Groups A,B, and C have the same amount of money and bitcoin.
There is no dilution or inflation of the money supply.

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