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Obama's Flip-Flopping In Shambles As California Rejects Proposed One-Year Plan Extension

Tyler Durden's picture




 

When Barack Obama, floundering in the endless humiliation from the disastrous rollout of Obamacare, gave the country's insurance  companies the "put option" to reject the one-year "cancellation" extension fix stemming from the whole "if you like your plan, you can keep it, period" fiasco, he committed a cardinal sin - he lost control of the situation, because from that point onward the decision was no longer in his court. Furthermore, due to the syndicate nature of insurance companies and state insurance commissioners implementing Obamacare, suddenly the decision was subject to game theoretical facets including cooperation and defection, or rather just defection since at this point the biggest spoils would go to whoever had the initial leverage or rather, defiance of the president. Sure enough, California just flopped on Obama's most recent flip when the state, moments ago, rejected Obama's proposed fix to allow legacy plans to survive for one additional year.

  • CALIFORNIA REJECTS OBAMA'S INSURANCE CANCELLATION FIX
  • CALIFORNIA REJECTS 1-YEAR EXTENSION OF CANCELED INSURANCE PLANS

More from Bloomberg:

California officials implementing President Barack Obama’s health-care overhaul rejected a one- year extension of insurance plans that are to be canceled under the law.

 

The president has urged states to give people with substandard medical plans an additional year to meet the law’s requirements after hundreds of thousands  received cancellation notices and were told new policies to meet minimum rules for coverage would cost more. “That’s making the best of not-great options, but I think it’s the best option and then we can focus in the coming months on the enrollment we need,” Peter V. Lee, the executive director of Covered California, the health exchange, said today at a meeting in Sacramento.

 

California’s decision is critical to the roll-out of Obamacare nationwide. The most populous U.S. state, which received almost $1 billion in federal grants to implement the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, led the U.S. in signups last month. The law requires all Americans to be covered next year or pay a penalty.

 

It’s up to state regulators and insurance companies to decide whether to delay the cancellations, which conflicted with Obama’s promise that consumers who liked their existing plans could keep them.

 

The exchange said 79,891 Californians had selected a health plan through Covered California as of Nov. 19. Enrollment began Oct. 1.

And from AP:

The board overseeing California's health insurance exchange has voted to stick with its current approach of phasing out by year's end health insurance policies that do not meet current benefit requirements. The Covered California Board of Directors voted 5-0 on Thursday to hold steady on its current approach, defying President Barack Obama's recent flip on one crucial aspect of the Affordable Care Act.

 

The state insurance commissioner had said that 1.1 million Californians are receiving notices that their current individual health insurance policies will be discontinued in 2014 because they do not meet the benefit requirements of the federal health care overhaul.

 

That has angered some policy holders, many of whom will see their monthly premiums and deductibles rise sharply with the new plans being offered. It also flies in the face of promises Obama made repeatedly when he said people who liked their current health insurance policies could keep them under his health insurance reforms.

 

The president has since backtracked and has asked states to allow insurance companies to extend those older policies.

 

But many insurance companies oppose that, saying doing so would undermine the new markets being set up under Obama's law. They also said they did not have enough time to rebuild policies they already had discontinued.

And while Calirofnia's decision certainly makes sense financially for the insolvent state (if not any other more prudent states), it merely adds to Obama's political crucifixion as now it will appear as if he has lost all control over not just the website enrollment process, but also the entire onboarding process and is unable to even keep beneficiary states under control.

Welcome to socialist central planning 101 - where everything that can go wrong, sooner or later does.

 

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Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:33 | 4179264 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Meanwhile in the UK, healthcare works just fine at 1/2 the cost of US insurance.

Anyway, enough obtuse gloating. What can you guys do about Obamacare? You can't just lie down and take this shit.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:35 | 4179277 ACP
ACP's picture

Half the cost to the beneficiary or half the cost to the taxpayer?

Low consumer cost means nothing.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:40 | 4179290 Four chan
Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:51 | 4179332 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Stop blaming Obama. Everuthing is the fault of someone or something else. He is not responsible for anything. He is special. He is a half cracker and half crackers are unique.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:53 | 4179342 Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

Which half of that cracker do I spread the cheese on?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:30 | 4179450 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

the wavy half

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:44 | 4179591 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Not sure if anyone bothered to think through this but this HELPS Obamacare move forward.  More people forced to go into the exhanges, whether the exchanges work or not.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 06:48 | 4180597 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

RAY CYST!

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:27 | 4180406 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Brie, or Cheez-Wiz?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:15 | 4180274 DESMO_RR
DESMO_RR's picture

I take a lot of comfort in knowing that a lot of the people that are loosing their insurance because of Obama are the same people that helped to elect the fuckstick.........TWICE! Hows the hopey changy shit feelin now assholes?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:53 | 4179339 Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

Afordable Care Act as I've always called it......  Brilliant!

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:37 | 4179663 knukles
knukles's picture

California!
The home of Nazi "I never called it Obamacare" Pelousy?

How could the Great Socialist Democratic Republic of Kalifornia do that to their Messiah!
Heresy!
They're to be burnt steaks for dinner!

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:09 | 4179581 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

Love that video! Pelosi: "The affordable care act, as I call it, as I've ALWAYS called it."

 

That bitch needs to go.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:41 | 4179295 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Half the cost to society on a per capita basis.

It was covered on an earlier thread.

Went like this...

Life expectancy
UK 79.7
US 77.9

Cost per capita
UK $3200
US $7100

Yeah we're all ugly and talk funny, I can't deny it. But our healthcare system is much more efficient than yours. All the abuse you want to direct at me doesn't change it.

You had a bad system, now you have a shit system.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:44 | 4179307 jcaz
jcaz's picture

Wow, the Queen really snowed a bright boy like you, eh?   Try factoring the taxes you pay into your numbers, or do you think that money goes to keeping up the shrubbery on the round-abouts?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:00 | 4179352 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

That $3200 is the taxes.

We don't pay anything else. Medical facilities in the UK don't have cash registers in them.

We don't have to shop for insurance or complete silly forms or fight a busted website.

If you're sick you go see a doctor and he gives you meds. No forms or payment or any of that on site admin stuff.

Ambulances pick up anyone who is hurt (no checking ID or looking for papers or any of that stuff), hospitals do whatever surgery is deemed worthy of the risk, it's all the same but without the middle man of the insurance company and all the multiple payment systems.

You guys hate the idea of it and to be honest, I would too. But it actually works. I know you don't believe me. But it does. We got it back in the 50's when nobody understood what it meant, but if any politician ever messes with it now they are finished.

NHS is pretty much the only good thing about the UK. Oh except the dentists. I would swap our dentists with yours.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:08 | 4179379 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Ambulances pick up anyone who is hurt (no checking ID or looking for papers or any of that stuff), hospitals do whatever surgery is deemed worthy of the risk, it's all the same but without the middle man of the insurance company and all the multiple payment systems."

Really?

"Patients are having to wait five and a half hours in ambulances parked outside A&E because there are not enough beds.

Some relatives are arriving at hospital to visit their loved ones only to find they are still ‘queued up’ outside the main entrance.

Last week some 4,500 patients waited in ambulances for at least half an hour before they were admitted."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271074/Patients-forced-wait-HOURS-ambulances-outside-A-amp-E-bed-shortages.html#ixzz2lKP31LiW

Odd, when one of our ambulances rolls up to the emergency room, they jump out & run to the back and open the doors and get their ass into the hospital.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:16 | 4179411 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Lol,

Please don't quote the Daily Mail. It's not good for your credibility.
Also anecdotal evidence is highly subjective.

As I said earlier....

Life expectancy
UK 79.7
US 77.9

They must be doing something right. Agree?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:24 | 4179432 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'm not worried about my credibility, you should worry about yours.

Is the article true or false?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:39 | 4179478 Bennie Noakes
Bennie Noakes's picture

Are Occident's life expectancy statistics true or false?

Maybe the Brits get better care in an ambulance than US patients get in a hospital room.

In the US, the sooner they get you into the hospital, the sooner they can start charging you for $250 aspirin tablets and running unnecessary tests. So of course, they rush to get you into the hospital ASAP in order to start the meter running.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:52 | 4179525 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Figures are from here

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-21/guest-post-obamacare-neutron-bo...

Anyway, I'm not going to mention NHS again. Didn't realise you guys liked Obamacare care so much, obviously very proud.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:57 | 4179533 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So, the article you ridiculed me about, was (one last fucking time)...

...true or false?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:03 | 4179558 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

don't expect a crooked tooth limey socialist bastard to admit the facts

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:17 | 4179611 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...I realize its getting late over there...but if he's going to challenge the veracity of the article in question, he could shake off the cobwebs and apologize or refute it.

The ole "OMG you posted something from Huff-Po, Daily Mail, Breitbart, CNN" shit don't cut it anymore.

Saying its wrong is just an accusation, not proof. Not proving its wrong, after saying its wrong, is approaching being a lie.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:08 | 4180261 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

UK healthcare is an oymoron.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:19 | 4180278 scrappy
scrappy's picture

I hope my dentist will trade for homemade wine.

Actually he probably will, dental covered!

ScrappyCare for all!

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:54 | 4179530 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Not all of us are concerned about prolonging the last two years of our lives...especially if I have to rely on someone else (the young, that I don't even know) and have them subsidizing some other stranger to wipe my ass with gritty Hugo Chavez-style toilet paper.

At that point in your life, if you ain't done what you want to do it will never happen.

The-stat-is-bogus.

 

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 14:07 | 4181516 Nue
Nue's picture

The U.K and many of the European and Japan have higher female to male sex ratios at the 65 and older range. Mostly as a result of WWII.  Since women tend to live longer than men it skews the life expectency rates in these countries. What Socialist don't want to talk about is something truly meaningful like the 5 year survival rates for cancer. In the US a woman has a 97% chance of being alive in 5 years after a breast cancer diagnoses. In the UK it's 78%.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:58 | 4179540 FinalCollapse
FinalCollapse's picture

USA does have the shittest health care among nations tracked by the OECD. However, the brainwashed masses here think that we have top health care. For these who claim it, I advice them that there is a world beyond your nearest corner liquor store. Time to buy ticket and travel to educate and learn how the health care works and should be done.

I have never seen any other nation so comically brainwashed. We have top healthcare here - REALLY?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:11 | 4179586 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Here we go with the bullshit stats again.

For example, one country counts a live birth as soon as it leaves the birth canal...another counts it only if it survives outside...sometimes minutes or hours or whatever they need to make a certain number...after leaving the birth canal.

Numbers don't lie, only liars with numbers lie.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=1516

And NO...this is not about babies...its about stats and how & who uses them and abuses them.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:20 | 4179617 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

Well i know for a fact that in France they dont do heroics on babys with heart defects, here they nearly all survive.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:39 | 4179490 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Accidental Moron, is that the best you've got?

Trolls to the left of me, morons to the right...

DaddyO

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:47 | 4179514 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

If it appeared in the Daily Mail I would obviously assume it was a piece of fiction.

Check out The Guardian (left), The FT (right), The Independant (independant).

NHS isn't perfect, but it's much better than the US system and a million times better than Obamacare.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:52 | 4179528 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Much better for who? For the time being we live like relative kings compared to you pomies.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:08 | 4179904 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I thought it was 'you pommie bastards'.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:30 | 4179622 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You "assume" it to be fiction...yet challenge my credibility?

You've compromised your own credibility, just like I said.

/////////////

You know what sucks about the left in Britain or here or anywhere?

They are absolutely incapable of admitting they are wrong. No matter how many lives or institutions they destroy...its always someone elses fault that it just doesn't work out.

There will be another time mate...you can count on it...my credibility, integrity and honor are not for sale...these are priceless things.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:38 | 4179481 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

I totalled 3 cars before I graduated from HS. A lot of it could be culture. We have had more freedoms and toys than you and your royal subjects perhaps. Drag racing, motorcycles, jet skis, snow mobiles, scuba diving. There is also the homogeneous society "thing" to consider. Control by ancestory and the picture might be different.

Knew a few who died young having the time of their lives.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:01 | 4179549 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Yep, more purchasing power in the US.

UK was held back in mid/later 20th century as it wasn't a proper meritocracy. Much better now though.

It was Thatcher who really destroyed the class stigma in the 80's. Since then we have been making up lost ground economically.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:22 | 4180288 scrappy
scrappy's picture

Me too, miss them all. They lived large, really lived free.

Airborn in a 4 speed honda civic and many crashes and adventures.

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:07 | 4179569 sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

occident moron, did you factor out deaths from murders and accidents?

 

south africa with "free" socialist healthcare has an average lifespan of 52 years. that's 25 years less than the USA. We must be doing something right.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:38 | 4179662 Wage Slave
Wage Slave's picture

Because life expectancy has nothing to do with dietary habits, suicide/homicide rates, accident rates, substance abuse, living in extreme climates (deserts, tundra), etc., etc. Surely that glorious extra 1.8 years you get is owed exclusively to the profound wisdom of the NHS.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:15 | 4179753 TexasAggie
TexasAggie's picture

You need to review statistics 101 - and compare applesto apples.  The UK does not include infant mortality if the infant diest before either 1 yr or 2 ys of age. However we include all infants if they take a breath.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:14 | 4179754 TexasAggie
TexasAggie's picture

You need to review statistics 101 - and compare applesto apples.  The UK does not include infant mortality if the infant diest before either 1 yr or 2 ys of age. However we include all infants if they take a breath.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:27 | 4179794 Bennie Noakes
Bennie Noakes's picture

"Odd, when one of our ambulances rolls up to the emergency room, they jump out & run to the back and open the doors and get their ass into the hospital."

Yes, but what happens when they go into the hospital?

According to a new study just out from the prestigious Journal of Patient Safety, four times as many people die from preventable medical errors than we thought, as many as 440,000 a year.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/leahbinder/2013/09/23/stunning-news-on-preve...

What is worse? Waiting half an hour in an ambulance, or dying? Because for for every Brit that waited more than half an hour in an ambulance, almost 100 Americans died of preventable medical errors.

I'm not a fan of socialized medicine, but the current US healthcare system is absolutely the worst of any developed country (and is actually worst than many so-called undeveloped countries). The US system is absolute crap!

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:20 | 4179933 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

"The US system is absolute crap!"

Everything government touches turns to crap.
Ringo Starr

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 05:33 | 4180563 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

Pity about those preventable errors, which the UK NHS has in droves also.  But the UK NHS goes way beyond that.  It has the quaintly named "Liverpool Care Pathway", which actually consists of starving and dehydrating inconvenient bedridden patients, particularly but not solely the elderly, so they die quickly and free up those beds.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:14 | 4179403 jcaz
jcaz's picture

Dude, the lacking quality in your health care system is well-documented.  

Do you see us flocking to England for work?   Not so much.

Are Florida hospitals full of English tourists, grateful they can get a script filled without the Queen signing off on it?  Pretty much.

The only people getting surgery "deemed worthy of the risk" are the Royals.

That's precious- you actually believe what they're telling you are the real "taxes" in your numbers?  I guess I didn't factor in the magic fairies that sprinkle money over your system-  so where do you THINK the rest of your taxes are going?

England- paging Dr Singh.....

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:06 | 4179565 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

These numbers are from ZH

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-21/guest-post-obamacare-neutron-bo...

Also I acknowledge our system isn't perfect.

But...

Life expectancy
UK 79.7
US 77.9

If we get a C you guys get a D.

Don't be blinded by patriotism, be open minded. Lots of things in the wider world are better.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:12 | 4179739 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The People of Asda don't look like the People of Walmart...

When I lived in London you had to hike to Oxford Street to see the People of Walmart...

As to your misguided "2 years" and your "2 weeks" of inexperience - look at the chart on page 2 of the PDF below - your UK land whales simply don't measure up... If UK life expectancy is only 2 years longer with that large a gap - MEDICAL CARE IN THE UK IS FAR WORSE IN THE UK THAN IN THE US.

www.oecd.org/health/49716427.pdf

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:24 | 4179758 VD
VD's picture

Occident Mortal don't worry, the resident ZH rubes are just breaking your balls; they're as hypocritical here as elsewhere; ie when they like the stats they defend when they don't accord with their biases they bash as per above. i can guarantee all that when ObamaCare kicks in fully the 99% in the States will wish they were in the UK.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:18 | 4180390 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

The body count which will begin because of these idiots and their health care power grab will not be politically tenable for our "representation". We'll see how long this lasts. The people who believe in socialism often do so because they feel they will benefit from it. Well, these fools are going to be the ones who thought this takeover was the right thing and did nothing to protect themselves from it, and therefore make a larger percentage of the body count to come. I do not believe the politicians are ready to push on past the death of their own useful idiots to save the ACA. Short of a real dictatorship with troops in the streets making peoples birth control retroactive, the whole ACA is already gone.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:18 | 4179766 CuriousPasserby
CuriousPasserby's picture

Life expectancy is not controlled by the health care system, and is no indication of the quality of the healt care system, it is controlled by numerous factors such as lifestyle, murder rate, drug use rate, alcohol consmption. Your numbers mean nothing to do with the health car system.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:57 | 4179717 Mr.Bigfoot
Mr.Bigfoot's picture

I'm in a group of 14 doctors in Texas. One of them is British, he practiced there for years. He said British healthcare is crap and Americans would never accept it.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:24 | 4179786 VD
VD's picture

this is true. but just wait until O-sick-care kicks in and the 'Merikans will be 'accepting' MUCH WORSE.  LOL!

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:17 | 4179410 Running On Bing...
Running On Bingo Fuel's picture

It's zerohedge.com, not zerohedge.uk so do me a favor fucktard go back and lick the queens ass and tell her that I said Fuck YOU!

Over.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:26 | 4179441 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

The pome is not bad, leave him be.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:08 | 4179570 Pig Circus
Pig Circus's picture

How do you complement a Brit?

"Hey limey nice Tooth".

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:09 | 4179909 Andre
Andre's picture

"The sun never set on the British Empire because God didn't trust the Brits in the dark."

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:50 | 4179518 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Actually Occident, ambulances do not check IDs. Emergency care is fabulous in this country. LifeFlight in San Diego was well known for their amazing rescues landing their Helicopter in very challenging and dangerous situations for traumas. When I used to work trauma I was continuously amazed how many people walked out of the hospital that should have been dead. NO other country can make this claim. I admit we have a serious problem with Healthcare in USA but trauma care is exceptional. I admit though it's highly expensive. Perhaps if we didn't have the expense of chronic disease, we could afford it.

Miffed;-)

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:10 | 4179573 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

I have had very bad experiences living in San Diego. Both Grossmont and Alvarado are terrible. I walked into Grossmont, on May 13, 2011, with a Broken Ankle. They X Rayed and told me that it was broken, on the weight bearing bone.

 

They refused basic First Aid. So I walked out of Grossmont Hospital on that Broken Ankle.

 

Nope. My experience with the Medical Community in San Diego California has been Sub Standard.

 

I guess that there are anecdotes that we can relate positive, and, negative. I guess it just depends on the type of Insurance, and the Company, that you have.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:30 | 4179642 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

You were ambulatory. I'm talking major trauma. I remember once we had a trauma called that was going directly to surgery ( you piss yourself when you hear this) I gowned up and set up our surgical monitoring lab.

When I ran the first specimen it read a 1.8 hemoglobin! I panicked at first and then realized they would call it after I gave them the results. The surgeon looked at me and said " I want 10 units in here STAT". You should have seen my WTF look. 10 min later that guy had 5 units hanging with blood pressure cuffs on them. I ran the next specimen after they were in... 2.5 hgb ( should have been about 7.0)! Sure they would call it I gave the results. " I want a 10 unit keep ahead NOW!" Yes, we kept going and a 23 year old man walked out of our hospital 3 weeks later in amazing condition. Ever year after that he came back on that date and handed us roses as thanks for taking such care of him. I have always prayed that surgeon is on duty if I ever need such services.

Miffed;-)

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:50 | 4179696 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

If you are working and I am bleeding out...let me go...call it.

 

I do not want to chance Oxygen Deprivation to the Brain, be blind or, end up in a vegitative state.

 

The odds are they they will anyway. I am too old and too sick. Code DNR.

 

But a young man has an entire life ahead of him. 

 

The surgeon can decide to stop Life Saving measures? That is just as well.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:36 | 4179819 Jena
Jena's picture

You probably already know this but the surgeon is legally bound to continue all life saving measures unless he/she has legal paperwork that explicitly states otherwise.  If he/she doesn't continue and you die (as you would most likely prefer) your next of kin could sue for not providing every possible chance at life.  

Most especially, once you've been intubated -- generally out in the field -- and put on a ventilator in the hospital, you're there for the duration unless you have things very well spelled out in writing and a cooperative family and doctor.  It's very difficult to remove a tube thanks to legal ramifications.

The way out of this is to 1) have a medical power of attorney with someone you know you can trust; 2) talk things over with your doctor and your family members where you elaborate on how far you want things to go so far as life-saving measures in a situation where it is clear things are not reversible (since you don't want to be too hasty about the situations where intervention would make a definite difference) and 3) get all of it in writing via a living will.

I know it's a lot of paperwork but without it, there is no way to be sure you won't find yourself being kept alive by machines for as long as your body will hold out.  That can be a long time if you have any strength, given our drugs and procedures.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:52 | 4179701 Jena
Jena's picture

Miffed,

I'm sure your facility has several of these in the Emergency Dept, or the equivalent.  They are simply amazing.  They warm and rapidly infused blood and crystalloids at such a rapid clip that it's actualy possible to keep up with massive bleeding.  Given a large bore IV or better yet, a couple of central lines, you're good to go.  You can actually keep someone busy just replacing the blood and IV bags:

http://www.emed.ie/Procedures/Level_1_Infuser.php

 

And I know just what you mean about that sort of trauma surgeon.  It is marvelous working a resusc with someone like that;  it is horrible working one with someone who doesn't know what they're doing.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:09 | 4179582 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Kudos.

It's great to hear such excellent work goes on.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:13 | 4179595 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

As I just wrote...Some may be good work. I certainly have not received it. I am in the same location.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:14 | 4179597 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

This also applies to pre hosptial trauma care Miffed. There is NO country in the world that has the pre hosptial/trauma care that we do here. This is no coincidence due to the fact there are TONS of rural and some rural metro services staffed by many or some volunteers who do still actually give a shit about folks in a bad situation. Having been on our squad since '94 have seen it all, literally(resulting in some sleepless nights). From the research I have seen there is still one helluva can do attitude when it comes to some things in the USA; I fear we are a dying breed as fewer folks want to do this kind of thing anymore. So many are so damn self absorbed in themselves.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:02 | 4179552 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

No shit there, seems that tooth care over there has been lacking for years. I'm always reminded of the Hedley and Wyche toothpaste skit.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xikrrk_hedley-wyche_shortfilms

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 05:28 | 4180562 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

A quote from the UK about that great NHS care "After being left in Milton Keynes A&E and largely ignored for 7 hours after suffering a heart attack, a nurse burst in and aggressively asked how much medication I needed.
As I struggled to re-engage my brain after it had been switched off for so long, she stridently told me that as I didn't know she'd just assume that I needed the largest dose available - what a great way to treat patients and what a high unprofessional way to dispense medicines."

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:48 | 4179321 ACP
ACP's picture

No, not ugly, just have bad teeth.

A large portion of that is litigation and insurance companies inflating costs. Some docs in the US got the bright idea to go all-cash. Overhead is gone, consumer costs are way down. Couple that with a tax exempt health savings plan for general use, and I can guarantee the costs would be lower than either country.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:51 | 4179337 Black Warrior W...
Black Warrior Waterdog's picture

"Yeah we're all ugly and talk funny.

You had a bad system, now you have a shit system."

 

Well, at least this much is true...

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:54 | 4179348 Bennie Noakes
Bennie Noakes's picture

Your numbers are pre-Obamacare. Now, almost everyone's existing policy is being cancelled and they are being forced by law to buy a newer, more expensive policy. If you think US costs are high now, just wait two or three years until ACA has taken effect.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:02 | 4179367 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

Maybe because us banks and fed are owned by BOE and cohorts.. england is being subsidised by the americans new tax called obumcare? Just maybe.....

 

IDK?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:22 | 4179430 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"Went like this...

Life expectancy
UK 79.7
US 77.9"

Funny, Piers Morgan attributed our lower life expectancy to our "gun culture".  And, Ex-Mayor Bloomberg blames it on super-sized soft drinks.  Michelle Obama says it's because we are all overweight.

Couldn't it be that being members of the European Union is the real answer to a longer life expectancy?

 

And, meanwhile - at the top of the page, some guy HATES annuities, and thinks that I should too.  I wonder if Ken has something better to sell me?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:00 | 4179538 NIHILIST CIPHER
NIHILIST CIPHER's picture

Occident M         AS I HAVE POSTED SEVERAL TIMES IN The LAST WEEK OR SO, THERE ARE TOO MANY BRITTS WITH TOO MANY OPINIONS ON HERE. Looks like dental IS NOT covered in your wonderful healthcare cause dAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmn you asshats have some ugly ass teeth!!!! Anyone with an ugly ass queen stuck up their arse should have nothing to say about how we conduct bussiness in the US.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:12 | 4179596 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Nice one,

Dentists are covered, but it's true they're not very good.

Most people are going private for their dental care now.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:28 | 4179637 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

"Dentists are covered, but it's true they're not very good."

Hmm, that's interesting.  Being an authority on the NHS, perhaps you could explain this discrepancy?  I mean after all, DDSs and MDs are both doctors, who receive extensive training, take the same Hippocratic oaths, and so on.  So why the big gap in service quality?   Or is the gap really that big?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 06:38 | 4180589 StandardDeviant
StandardDeviant's picture

There's always a bell curve, isn't there?  Going into private practice requires more work, more capital, more initiative, etc.

"Q: What do you call the med student with the worst passing grade in his class?"  "A: Doctor."

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:52 | 4180049 Abbie Normal
Abbie Normal's picture

Taken a good look at your own queen recently?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:28 | 4179635 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

No, we just have more fat people than you do (or anyone in the world for that matter, though the Germans are catching up).  You can explain the entire life expectancy issue on BMI alone.    Europeans just walk more since they can't afford to drive with their tax rate.  Lucky you, 2 more years of "life" in soggy old England.

The only people in the UK with quality care are in the private, cash only part of the system that socialists never like to discuss.  And they don't have any critical surgury done in the UK either.

"The problem with socialism is pretty soon you run out of other people's Money"  M. Thatcher

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:35 | 4179279 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

If the usual horror story every week from the NHS is "working fine" I hate to see what "fucking up" looks like. But you can pull something off in a smaller jurisdiction. RomneyCare was not a total disaster.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:47 | 4179317 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Well maybe you could do a similar system on a state by state basis? Rather than a federal system?

Whatever, it's up to you guys. But you can do a lot better than what you have. You're all being played. As if you didn't know.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:55 | 4179347 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

You're right, we can do better than what we have, but the solution is much less government, not more.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:14 | 4179368 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Exactly, Meat Hammer!

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:13 | 4179389 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Hmmm,

OK hypothetically, imagine if everyone in America got together and joined a nationwide "Health Trust". Imagine everyone agreed to pay money into the "Health Trust".

This massive "Health Trust" then negotiates with the entire US Health industry as the sole customer in the market.

If the Health Industry doesn't accept the terms the Health Industry has zero customers. Suddenly the customers have much more buying power and they get a better deal by collective negotiating.

Now this sounds a bit like a trade union, but it's not. I don't like unions as they commodify workers and good workers get a bad deal and slackers get an easy ride.

But slackers are always slackers and good workers are always good. Commodification is unfairly progressive under trade unions.

For healthcare this is different, your circumstances vary and it's largely beyond your control. As an individual seeking healthcare your buying power diminishes as you closer and closer to needing to make a purchase (as you get sick) this is what makes healthcare so unique. Commodification protects your purchasing power when you get sick and need healthcare.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:20 | 4179425 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"OK hypothetically, imagine if everyone in America got together and joined a nationwide "Health Trust". Imagine everyone agreed to pay money into the "Health Trust"."

Agreed or are forced?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:37 | 4179479 Libertarian777
Libertarian777's picture

ok lets follow your theory...

who gets to manage said 'health trust'? some well connected ex-Treasury/Fed official who can claim a 2/20 split on AUM?

Now that prices and costs are out of the equation, when things are free... demand goes up. Stub my toe, go to the ER. sneeze. Go to the ER. Want medical hash. Go to the ER in an ambulance cos i'm too drunk to drive. Why bother worrying, it's all free!

Now lets take a different free market approach.

Health insurance, is just that, catastrophic insurance, for when you are in a car accident, get cancer etc.

Health care is priced. Dr A publishes a price list. Dr B publishes a price list. Dr A is more expensive, but has hot nurses, Dr B has himself and no nurses. What do I want? I get to choose.

Dr C comes along and says, hey I can do what Dr A does for 10% less, and publishes his prices. Voila prices go DOWN. No central planner trying to tell me how much a damn MRI 'should' cost over the entire country (when it will cost more in a rural area and less in a densely populated area).

And before you bring in your 'what about the uninsured who gets hit by a truck or has cancer'? you are covering the anecdotes, the single digit % of people who end up with terrible diseases. When we talk about overall healthcare costs we need to start changing the system with the basics, like visiting a GP for a cold. You don't have to get into a prepaid healthcare plan (called 'health insurance' here) just to visit a doctor. Why does my company pay $1800pm for my family and me when we visit the doctor 3 times a year? I can visit a cash doctor for $100. I'd love to save that $1800pm for when I do need surgery, but the government won't let me.

We need to move away from these big insurance companies and big hospitals and move towards a community clinic based system. That way we get to try 10,000 different mechanisms for pricing and delivering health care, instead of centralising everything to a single point of failure (healthcare.gov).

20 years ago a cellphone cost $10,000; a $1000 a month to operate weighed about 2kg and didn't have much talk time. Nowadays even homeless people have cellphones with 1000 times more power. Why has the same not happened to health care?

Sun, 11/24/2013 - 15:48 | 4185974 Serfs_Up
Serfs_Up's picture

Because those that are sane realize that when .gov gets it's hands into ANYTHING, it will be WAY MORE expensive and clunky...where's the money to scam if something actually works well and benefits it's customers?

BTW where's the $8.5 TRILLION that the Pentagram said is now missing? Near the $2 TRILLION that was "missing"

on 9/10/01?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:05 | 4179564 Big Brother
Big Brother's picture

I agree that there needs to be more commodification than is currently available.  You must understand just prior, each state in the US set its own "minimum" insurance standards. 

  • There's a minimum itemization of services and coverages that must be present in a given health plan.  Additionally, an insurance company domiciled on one state cannot sell an insurance policy in another state unless it meets that state's minimum coverage requirements. 
  • The other significant tenent is that an insurance policy premium is in no way tax deductable to the individual.  However, as business owner who partially pays for one's employees' premiums, that portion IS tax deductable.  It has been that way since just after WWII, and was used to attract talent to one's business.

Now, after the enacted (but clearly a completely mutable) ACA law, the states (susposedly sometime in the future) must meet a certain minimum insurance standard set by the Department of Health and Human Services.  This clearly hasn't happened yet.  As such only those that absoluately cannot afford or are "uninsurable" are the ones signing up (attempting for the most part) for federally subsedized health insurance.  These premiums are much higher than was projected since the demands are high and the pool is small; but I will assume that there are those that don't want to pay this premium and will pay the "tax" instead and sign up after they need the insurance.  This is a huge moral dictotomy and is destined to fail in its current form.

I would prefer that after this law gets repealed we move towards more insurance deregulation; and allow entrepreuers into the industry to bring down costs and insure more people.  However, with this present administration, I believe this act was designed to fail with the root intent of having a national health service similar to the UK's. 

Were there ever health insurance companies in the UK similar what the US has?  And if so, what happened to them after the NHS was created? 

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:36 | 4179659 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

"your circumstances vary and it's largely beyond your control"

Hardly, obese and/or sendentary people are responsible for the majority of all health costs.   Use it or lose it applies to both body and mind.   Any practicing physician will confirm that.  Fatties need to move something other than their mouth and digestive tract everyday.  Let's give them some incentive via price competition and market based rates.  Insurance of any kind is a huge scam like the rest of the FIRE economy. 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:15 | 4179407 Jena
Jena's picture

Just curious, how much innovation comes out of your system?  I know our meds are more expensive because we subsidize most of the rest of the world but how about you?  Do any new meds with worldwide importance come out of your system?  

And no, that doesn't make us smart, it makes us suckers.   But those meds wouldn't exist were it not for the U.S.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:24 | 4179433 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

I tend to agree, but there is Roche and Glaxo.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:26 | 4179437 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Erm let's see...

Drug companies...
GlaxoSmithKline?
AstraZenica?

Drugs... Erm, ever heard of

Penacilin?
Insulin?

Vaccination? Ever heard of that? That was invented in London.

Just small stuff I guess.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:31 | 4179453 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Right, good show what?...champion actually!

And Britain also had a hand in importing slavery into the America's...perhaps something a little more recent.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:37 | 4179480 Jena
Jena's picture

A few drug companies in Europe.

Medical device companies?  Probably a few there as well.

But most innovation comes from the U.S.

And it's been a very long time since Fleming and Jenner.  I don't think you still get to count them toward today's innovation. 

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:58 | 4179544 Bennie Noakes
Bennie Noakes's picture

Vaccination? Ever heard of that? That was invented in London.

Vaccination is thought to have been invented in India or China, then spread to Turkey. Pasteur popularized the technique in the west. I didn't know he lived in London...

Penacilin? (sic)

True, that was discovered in the UK. But before your current health system was instituted.

Insulin?

A lot of people worked on insulin, some of them in the US. I'm not aware of any major work done on it in the UK. I'm sure UK researchers studied it. But did they make any major discoveries? Who are you referring to?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:31 | 4179457 ForTheWorld
ForTheWorld's picture

Oh please. Think about that for a second - why would pharmaceutical companies ONLY charge people in the US more than the rest of the world? Purely because the "innovation" was done in the US? It couldn't have anything to do with the pharmaceutical and insurance companies and greed, could it? Someone mentioned this in another thread, and it strikes me as strange. Why not release these drugs, that you tell me that you subsidise simply by being a US Citizen, worldwide and charge the highest that the market willl bear?

If someone can provide a logical explanation why US citizens are charged more than the rest of the world (when there are other countries with higher per capita incomes that could bear a higher price), I'm all ears.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:50 | 4179522 Poundsand
Poundsand's picture

a.  We are willing to pay it.  I was in Nepal not long ago and people without electricity had cell phones with better coverage and cheaper rates as well.  Why?  Because that is what their market can absorb vs. the US.

b. Because we have a culture that tells us we have to know everything about our health, and there is no amount that is too much to spend to either find out what we think ails us, or to make sure we suffer absolutely no discomfort at all.

The brits are a horrible comparson.  Just look at their teeth.  That shows you how much care they expect from their medical profession.  If they had the legal tort system that we do, every dentist in England would be forced into bankruptcy.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:55 | 4179531 Jena
Jena's picture

The interwebs are your friend.  

As one of the paragraphs in one of these links states:

"So to recap, although we actually take fewer drugs than people in other countries, we favor more expensive drugs, and we also pay more for the same drug.  Add in the fact that we may be subsidizing R&D and that we also subsidize drug prices for the rest of the world, and there goes about $100 billion.  This accounts for about 15% of our “extra” spending for health care."

 

I don't know if they caught the costs of the Pharma lobbying there somewhere but I'm sure that adds a few bucks somewhere.   Anyhow, putting 'why drugs are more expensive in the US' will provide plenty of reasonably reliable news sources for you to explore if you so wish.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/25/opinion/caplan-prescription-drugs/

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/what-makes-the-us-health-care-system-so-expensive-drugs/

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/24/business/why-drugs-cost-more-in-us.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 05:22 | 4180558 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

No shortage of innovation in the NHS.  They came up with the "Liverpool Care Pathway", you know, the one that starves and dehydrates inconvenient patients so they die quickly.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:41 | 4179284 jcaz
jcaz's picture

Yeah, "fine" is an interesting phrase, as my girlfriend in Dorset has waited 5 months for approval on her medication....

How's that 90% tax bracket working for ya?    Seems low enough to  still afford Kool-Aid.....

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:45 | 4179308 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

90% tax? You must be doing it wrong.

In Scotland medication is free and readily available.

What's the problem with my earlier post? Just repeating facts from ZH.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:51 | 4179331 Promethus
Promethus's picture

The medication is free FOR YOU.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:56 | 4179351 Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

Kinda like how Gasoline in Canada is $5.00+ a gallon cuz healthcare is "free"

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:31 | 4179458 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

It's free for sick people who have seen a doctor.

Cost is socialised.

Thought this was implied by what I said?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:42 | 4179503 Libertarian777
Libertarian777's picture

food is MUCH MUCH more important than healthcare.

Why have you not socialised food?

Why don't you all put your grocery money into a single payer system. You can have large grocery stores where anyone can go whenever they are hungry. Forget to take lunch with you? no problem just grab a bite to eat. Need lunch delivered? no problem just call!

We need a pre-paid food plan. We'll call it CameronCare! There will be 2.5 million different product codes (just think of all the employment for food-coders!). The electronic card will ensure you eat 5 servings of fruit and veg a day (especially broccoli!).

No one may opt out of the system. If you do not buy food-insurance, you will pay a penalty. If you eat less than a fat person, well you have to help subsidise them. Food is a human right! you can't deny them their human rights!

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:21 | 4179620 Big Brother
Big Brother's picture

The UK can basically buy your food for you; you don't even have to be a citizen.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-20/how-europes-benefits-stack-us-e...

UNITED KINGDOM

Health care Available immediately and free of charge under the National Health Service

Child benefit Paid immediately if the child is under 16, or 16 to 19 and in education or training, and the claimant has an individual income of less than £50,000. Amount is £20.30 a week for the eldest or only child, £13.40 per additional child

Unemployment benefit Immediate payment of £71.70 a week in Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) after proving you are actively seeking work. EU migrants have to pass the “right-to-reside” test to show they are “economically active”. The European Commission wants to abolish this test. There is also contribution-based additional JSA which is only available after working for at least two years.

Housing benefit Available immediately if you are on a low income, whether you are working or unemployed.

How much depends on individual circumstances, but amount cannot normally exceed £250 per week for a one-bedroom property, or up to £400 a week for four bedrooms or more

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:54 | 4179343 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Free? Wow, that is great.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:57 | 4179355 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

When you say free you mean that no one and nothing pays a tax, a fee, a whatever, from a source of income from which the health system is financed.

Do you all print doctors? Print medication? Print hospitals?

So when a doctor in your system is paid that money comes from where?

Now if what you really meant to say is this.... individuals and groups who create capital by their labor are forced to finance your health system and those who paid this fee as well as those who do not contribute anything can obtain the services without paying a bill.... is your definiton of free... then you are fucking idiot.

Please send me all of your money cause it will not cost you anything because it free, thanks buddy.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:09 | 4179380 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

In another thread I posted the example of an elephant at the circus who is held in place by a small rope the elephant could easily break, but she doesn't.

Why not? Because when she was a little calf, she was held in place by a logging chain that weighed more than she did.

Today, she believes she can't break the rope because when she was little she tried.

Today, people believe that the .gov money is free because they have been receiving the checks for so long they don't know from whence the money comes from.

You nailed the crux of the conundrum beautifully! Well Done.

DaddyO

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:36 | 4179473 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

I mean that's it's free for the person who is sick and has seen a doctor.

The cost is real and spread across everyone.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:15 | 4179405 Livingstrong
Livingstrong's picture

Nah, nothing is for free, NOTHING.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:51 | 4179699 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Well, nothing is indeed free, or worth nothing=0.  The corollary is that only those things which are costly, in limited supply and require effort are worth while.  Would anyone prefer to get their knee surgury for "free" under medicaid or from the private Stedman clinic where no insurance is accepted and payment is expected up front.  The "free" medicaid is indeed worth nothing as you correctly state as you will likely have even more problems post surgury than if you had done nothing.  But your surgery at the private clinic is the best available as all the pro athletics who go there will verify.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 05:20 | 4180557 Bazza McKenzie
Bazza McKenzie's picture

 "In Scotland medication is free", because it is actually paid for by the English, courtesy of UK Labour's vote buying in Scotland at the expense of conservative voters in England.  And OM thinks this is something to boast about.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:38 | 4179285 Jendrzejczyk
Jendrzejczyk's picture

We fear your hospitals will be like Cuba's citizen only hospitals very soon.

Respectfully yours....

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:53 | 4179341 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Occident Mortal - Member for 2 weeks and 1 day.

Welcome, Troll.  With each new troll sighting comes the reassurance that we are speaking the truth on ZH

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:30 | 4179451 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Troll because I think the UK has a decent healthcare system v's the US?

I won't mention it again, you guys are clearly very proud of what you have too.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:25 | 4179626 Big Brother
Big Brother's picture

While I disagree with some of your assertions, I certainly do appreciate a European's perspective on this site. 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:31 | 4179456 r00t61
r00t61's picture

His writing style reminds me of past trolls like "Max Fischer, Civis Mundi" and "ikantbelieveit."

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:56 | 4179353 WOAR
WOAR's picture

How's that VAT working out for you? Also, if you don't mind me asking, how much do you pay for a liter of Petrol?

Oh, yeah...living in your country isn't so cheap, now, is it?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:18 | 4179414 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

One thing about the US health care system that has been undeniable has been that because of the profit incentive in the system there has always been many medical advances discovered in the US. That will no longer be the case sadly with Obamacaresless.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:14 | 4179633 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

That's the whole damn problem, ain't it? We just will not lay down and take this shit.

(unlike oBUMMERS mama.) 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:51 | 4179698 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

fuck you you english tavistock bbc mind control lunatic.

the nhs have killed 4 of my family already.

liverpool care pathway you fucking tool.

all rkoerfella rothschild run money extraction and death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZWlOx-Sx8c

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:02 | 4179725 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

We ought to tell insurance companies to go piss up a rope. Why should they profit from this? I've seen estimates that 40% of healthcare cost is paperwork and administration, which is the fault of the government and it's regulations, so they can go piss up a rope too. And we really need to face it as a society that we can't afford hundreds of thousands of dollars to squeeze out a few more miserable months of life for a terminal cancer patient and we can't afford to give people in their 60s organ transplants. 

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 03:30 | 4180476 limit_less
limit_less's picture

Works fine in the UK? When was the last time you went to a British hospital? You should also look at the cost of private healthcare in the UK, it is cheaper than the NHS.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:31 | 4179265 Cacete de Ouro
Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:17 | 4179406 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yeah, Cacete de Ouro, I tend to think that Obamacare is interconnected throughout the entire social pyramid system that has enabled the USA to become a much more fantastically STEEP PYRAMID than ever before. The runaway tragedies of societies ending up locked into vicious spirals, where those who are getting away with successful frauds are becoming more wealthy and powerful, and therefore, even more able to get away with more frauds, DRIVE THAT OVERALL THAT SOCIETY TO BECOME MORE AND MORE INSANE!

Here is a link to a great 15 minute speech, which connects a lot of the dots which surround the Obamacare situation, in order to put that into context, as to WHY it seems possible for the government of the USA to appear to be so utterly, unbelievably, incompetent with respect to implementing Obamacare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ombh0hP1Ug

We Are Your Enemy

My preferred overview of what is happening comes from the ideas about the structure of scientific revolutions, presented back in the 1960s by Thomas Kuhn. It is from within that context of understanding the deeper realities of politics in the USA that I believe that the runaway train wreck of Obamacare was deliberately designed, behind the scenes, nearer the top of the social pyramid system, to become such a train wreck.

P.S.

As a sign of the times, I refer to Comet ISON, (Comet Nevski–Novichonok) http://brucegary.net/ISON/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo

The Electric Comet | Full Documentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4YVAmMTnIA#t=199

Comet Ison / GridEx II /

Obviously, that comet has nothing directly to do with Obamacare, except through coincidences and possible synchronicities. Throughout human history, the appearance of comets was associated with fateful events.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B1Z97ZSa40

Comet ISON and its effects, Obama's dictatorship...

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:32 | 4179266 Armchair Bear
Armchair Bear's picture

Calirofnia??

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:02 | 4179363 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

Indiana insurance commission did the same thing. If you like your cancellation letter, you can keep it. If you don't like, you're still cancelled.

Another 105k or so that can't keep their plan.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:32 | 4179268 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

If you like that shit sandwich, you can eat that shit sandwich.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:38 | 4179283 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

It is a big shit sandwich.

How can they pass a 1300 page bill that nobody read?

It's like the opposite of TARP which was half a page and written in crayon if I remember correctly. "GeiF Monuy now!! MOAR"

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:46 | 4179313 666
666's picture

It's one thing to not have read the 1300 page bill; it's another to have voted the bums back in after that.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:40 | 4179289 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Think of all that gold we still have to sell to GS so we can buy Californian's icrap to get them to STFU.

This party's just gettin started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ0B6kvFy-k

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:41 | 4179297 Redhotfill
Redhotfill's picture

Does that shit sammich come with or without flies?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:02 | 4179364 WOAR
WOAR's picture

"If you want fLIES with your shit sandwich, you can have fLIES with your shit sandwich."

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:07 | 4179382 Jethro
Jethro's picture

This isn't the third world yet, so fly apathy and Sally Strothers are absent.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:32 | 4179270 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Once the most love man in America, now the most hated! How does it feel Obama?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:42 | 4179299 lemonobrien
lemonobrien's picture

he don't give a shit; he's getting paid.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:39 | 4179288 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The problem with ObozoCare is, you eventually run out of other peoples money.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:11 | 4179392 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

We passed that point a while ago, right?

Just wait till the devaluation hits the rest of the currency in circulation and see what happens then, whoosh, hockey sticks anyone?

DaddyO

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:40 | 4179291 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

After today's action in the Senate does anyone not believe that the destruction of the United States is on full bore?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:41 | 4179294 Mae Kadoodie
Mae Kadoodie's picture

The Californians.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 19:42 | 4179298 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

I am disappointed to see the phrase "socialist central planning" used here, since Obamacare is corporatist, not socialist. Furthermore, this runaway social insanity from the PROFIT FROM DISEASE SYSTEM is only another facet of the overall oligarchical fascist plutocracy, which is fundamentally based on the success of applying the principles of organized crime to be able to covertly take control of the powers of government, or the collective powers of "We the People," in order to use those privatized powers to rob and to kill AGAINST the vast majority of "the People."

A better conclusion would have been "welcome to corporatist central planning 101" ... NOT "socialist," since that use of language continues to be a misleading misrepresentation of the real nature of the source of these kinds of political problems.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:09 | 4179387 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

The Nazi Party were CORPORATISTS. That is what Fascism is.

 

The Nazi Party was the National SOCIALIST Party. It is NOT a MISNOMER.

 

SOCIALISM has three major divisions...BRANDS if you'd like...

 

Fabianism. ( UK USA although they are regressing toward Fascism.)

Marxism. (USSR, NK, China, Vietnam)

Fascism. (Italy  NAZI Germany)

 

Too MATE TOE, Too MAW TOE.

 

For what reason argue the nuances?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:24 | 4179431 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

+1

 

... In the end we the people are their enemy whether they are communists, socialists, or fascists. I think Obama is a Marxist with that veil he has up yet to be dropped so all can see.

How screwed up is it that we are actually arguing over whether the president of the US is any of these forms of vile.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:31 | 4179455 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

The reason to "argue the nuances," Tall Tom, is to understand the mechanisms more deeply. In my opinion, NONE of old-fashioned labels, regarding different "isms," work well anymore. The thing that has been constant has been the development of bigger and bigger social pyramid systems, whereby small minorities control the majority. Those tiny minorities use dishonesty and violence in order to keep the vast majority ignorant and afraid. Those tiny minorities used all of the "isms" as different tools in their tool box of social control and regulation.

The only constant feature is that that small minority becomes more wealthy and powerful, while the vast majority are dispossessed worse and worse. Personally, I believe that we should go through a profound intellectual scientific revolution regarding the ways that we understand political science, in order to apply unitary mechanisms, rather than continue to rely upon the old-fashioned false fundamental dichotomies, and their related impossible ideals. Attempting to implement impossible ideals actually causes the opposite to happen in the real world. In my view that was the only consistent aspect with respect to all of the various ideological "isms." They were deliberately used to cause the opposite to what they claimed they would do, because those tools were being used by people who actually intended them to cause the opposite to happen in the real world than what they asserted where their public purposes.

My view is that we should perceive that ALL human realities are ALWAYS systems of organized lies, operating organized robberies, and that the only way forward is through the evolutionary ecologies of those systems being better understood. However, at the present time, it appears clear that we are necessarily headed towards dramatic tipping or turning points, where the old systems of dynamic equilibria are breaking down, which may enable extremely unpredictable new systems to emerge out of that transformation ???

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 20:57 | 4179537 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

I appreciate that the Corporatists cannot be catagorized into any one of those concrete distinctions. I am also fluid in my thinking and realize that a spectrum of devices is used whenever it suits the user to acheive the goals which they are after.

 

Where you and I differ is that I do not believe that there is ANY POLITICAL SOLUTION WHATSOEVER. The United States has died. Or maybe it is in the process of dying and it soon will be dead.

 

But the situation is TERMINAL. There is no saving it. So I am writing the Requiem of a once Great and Powerful Nation. But it is gone.

 

You need to let it go.

 

Does the Political Science really matter? There are NO Political Solutions.

There has not been any Political Solutions in the Past.

There are, at present, no Political Solutions.

THE PREVIOUSLY CITED PREMISES ARE EVIDENTIAL TRUTHS. 

And my bet is that the future will not yield any Political Solutions. Past behavior is a damned good predictor for future behavior. That is our dismal REALITY.

 

You need to write the requiem, the Obituary, and stop denying the fact.

 

It was a good experiment. But it was not sustainable. And may God forbid that we repeat failed models in the future.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:07 | 4179711 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

As far as I can say, Tall Tom, you are RIGHT that there do not look like there are any practical political solutions within the established systems. I agree that they appear to be terminally sick and insane, since almost everything is based on successful frauds, the worst of which was the privatized making of "money" out of nothing, as debts, for a long, long time, creating such extremely unbalanced social situations that there does not appear to be any realistic ways that that system itself could rebalance itself. Rather, it seems to be similar to what happens when someone gets so extremely sick that there no longer can be a recovery, other than death.

But nevertheless, the death of one system creates opportunities for the possible survivors to build a new system afterwards. I still believe Aristotle's observation that human beings are inherently political animals. We are stuck having to have some politics. The politics we have now is primarily the result of the long history of the people who were the best at being dishonest, and backing that up violence, prevailing. The paradoxes we face are due to final failures from too much "success" at controlling society with huge lies.

I like to day dream that more radical truth may emerge somehow, in order that better politics could become possible ... However, I admit that seems to be quite silly and no more than an irrational hope for a series of political miracles.

In particular, Obamacare is the result of the profound contradictions built into "Rockefeller Medicine," or the profit from disease system, contributing to drive the society as a whole to become more and more terminally sick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6J_7PvWoMw

Rockefeller Medicine

PRETTY WELL EVERYTHING THAT HAS GONE WRONG WITH THE AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC HAS BEEN DUE TO HISTORY OF THE FUNDING OF ALL ASPECTS OF THE POLITICAL PROCESSES. Tragically, the more that one understands that problem, then the LESS possible it becomes to figure out any practical political ways to fix that problem. The overall situation is that the international banksters are collectively a group of trillionaire mass murderers, who have almost totally succeeded in taking control over the government of the USA, so that almost all politicians have become their puppets, so that things like Obamacare could become law, which demonstrates the problems with runaway triumphant greed and stupidity becoming so "successful" that it destroys itself.

After one recognizes that the international banksters have ALREADY succeeding in privatizing the public money supply, and have been able to leverage that up to take over almost total control of every social institution in America, as well as all around the world, the problem is that THAT POLITICS IS THE TRIUMPH OF LEGALIZED LIES, BACKED BY LEGALIZED VIOLENCE, WHERE THE VIOLENCE CAN NEVER MAKE THOSE LIES BECOME TRUE, BUT NEVERTHELESS CAN CONTINUE TO CONTROL THE SOCIETY IN WAYS WHICH CONSTANTLY DRIVE IT TO BECOME MORE INSANE, WHILE THERE ARE NO PRACTICAL WAYS TO RESIST THAT PROCESS WITHIN THE ESTABLISHED POLITICAL SYSTEMS, PRECISELY BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE CAN POSSIBLY COMPETE WITH PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAVE THE POWER TO MAKE "MONEY" OUT OF NOTHING, WHILE NOBODY WHO OPPOSES THEM CAN DO THAT!

I do NOT agree that "politics" in general is dead, and I do not agree that political science has nothing to say, since I believe we should go through radical paradigm shifts in political science, in order to understand what has gone wrong. However, I DO AGREE that the current systems are beyond being able to be fixed by anything that still is possible within them. Therefore, I see that they will continue to go mad, and thereby destroy themselves, which, then, and only then, may open up opportunities for some new kind of politics to emerge?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 21:06 | 4179557 SDShack
SDShack's picture

From a purely future educational standpoint, your term Corporatist or Fascist in this case is the most accurate. That said, your brands of socialism are not really correct either. The deciding factors for classification are really dependent on what groups control the means of production.

I will agree that Fabianism (UK Socialism) is probably the purest form of socialism in practice today. In the UK there is an amalgam of traditional capitalist, union and state controlled enterprises.

Marxism has never been successfully implemented. The USSR, NK, China, Vietnam, etc have never practised Marxism. These are/were bastardized Communist countries that were really Stalinism or Maoism. With Marxism, the philosophy is that capitalism would evolve into socialism, which would evolve into communism. In your examples, there was no socialism middle link by design because Stalin & Mao were just another sociopath that effectively just led to an oligarchy dictatorship. The philosophy with communism is that the workers control all means of production, and government involvement is minimal. In practice, that never happened. Instead, Stalin and Mao simply replaced one oligarchy with another... in their case the Communist Workers Party. The Party controlled both govt and all means of production, since all business workers, managers, etc. had to be members of the party.

Therefore in practice, Communism (Stalinism, Maoism) controlled BOTH the govt and all means of production. This is the same definition of Fascism.... Govt controlls all means of private production. So although many people like to say there is a difference in philosophy regarding Marxism/Communism and Fascism they usually believe it has something to do with Right wing vs. Left wing, which is totally false. The PHILISOPHICAL difference is how they control the means of production. But the PRACTICAL experience shows that there is absolutely no difference at all. The PRACTICAL experience of Communism is the same as Fascism. The state controls all means of production in BOTH cases. That's why 0zer0care is best classified as Corporatist leaning towards Fascism or even Communism if you define Communism as Stalinism. The bottom line is it's just one big Govt Run Clusterfuck that is destined to fail.

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