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Peter Schiff On Gold vs Bitcoin

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Peter Schiff is sympathetic "with what [bitcoin] is trying to achieve," but as he explains in this brief clip he believes, "they are using the wrong vehicle." After rising from less than $20 to more than $600 in one year, many investors are wondering if bitcoin might be worth the risk, Schiff adds, nothing that early adopters pitch bitcoin as "gold 2.0" – a digital currency that cannot be manipulated like fiat money. Bitcoins are even "mined," similar to physical gold and silver (and are scarce and divisble); but as Schiff explains, bitcoins still fail as a substitute for gold and strongly urges investors to avoid this risky new currency. Bitcoin could very well have already hit its top, but Peter is confident gold is still well below its future record highs.

 

 


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Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:42 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

The word you should be looking for regarding any "money" or currency is, unencumbered.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:49 | Link to Comment Four chan
Four chan's picture

gold is on sale for the holidays, the more people/china buy the deeper the discount.

 

thanks manipulator santa!

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 22:50 | Link to Comment Dear Infinity
Dear Infinity's picture

I do believe Gold will have its day, but the truth of the matter is for the time being, some of the funds that would be flowing into gold and silver are undeniably flowing into BTC.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:30 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Yes but they won't flow out.

When all the gold investors currently holding BTC try and exit at the same time and get back into gold and silver you will find out the true intrinsic value of Bitcoin very quickly.

just look down... a long way down.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:34 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

The shit you have to do to just buy or sell bitcoin is insane, not to mention the wait times involved.

I looked into picking some up a few months back and....fuck that noise, this is just ponzi pump and dump so the early adopters (miners/satoshi) can cash out. It is a good idea for exchange and trade but like most other things greed has royally fucked it up.

I'll stick to my LCS 15 minutes down the road...

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:50 | Link to Comment clymer
clymer's picture

Schiff took the words out of my mouth~

As I said here: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-12/visualizing-how-bitcoin-transac...

"Look ZH, I love how BC uses 256bit PKI with salted hash to regulate and restrict the number of coins mined. I love how buyers and sellers can agree on it as a medium of exchange to work together without 3rd party interference. I get it. But here's the thing that prevents me from biting: it ain't backed by anything. And what the fuck is Keiser talking about when he says there will never be a competitor to bitcoin? Here's a novel idea: Anonymous puts a little time into understanding as much about banking and finance as they understand about scientology. As this understanding spreads between their more entrepreneurial members, say an offshoot, sub group that happens to work in certificate / key store management, they develop a similar algorithm, only they say, "look, we developed a similar model called 'crypto coin' won't just allow this to denominate in fiat that the 'cryptocoin' marketplace will back, we will tie specifically to gold and silver. The algo will ultimately mine 15x more silver colored cryptocoins than th gold colored ones, to represent what exists naturally in the crust of the earth. They then correspondingly create their own exchange (even say a virtual exchange represented by members), collectively owned by all cryptocoin holders. The balance of actual metal in the exchange is verified on a quarterly basis by the top 100 cryptocoin holders to verify that they maintain the same amount of precious metals in the exchange, as there exists cryptocoins in circulation. The crypto coins can then be redeemed in gold and / or silver. The same concept could be applied to oil contracts, shares in organic beef farms, or stock at company xyz. Till I see the next evolution cryptographic digital currency, I will keep hitting the coin shop and stacking. 

Intrinsic value is one thing. Tangible value is another. Combining the two is key

Observation: The bitcoin buyers / holders appear to be vitriolic toward those that prefer PM's. Understand that we are on the same side of this argument. Don't lose sight of the bigger picture; that we all now recognize how the monopolized private issuance of currency and credit has led us to this point"

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:54 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

When did anyone say that there would never be any competitors to Bitcoin?  There are already several out there but most are just minor varients of Bitcoin.  So there will be much innovation as well as possibly some mistakes.  Chances for great profits as with any stock split.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:08 | Link to Comment PP
PP's picture

Gold and Bitcoin are living in different world, gold in rural, common, old people while bitcoin depends on Internet.

Bitcoin's biggest enemy is not gold, it is "other Bitcoins"

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:12 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Not sure if that's true.  I'm about as rural as you can get.  Africa and parts of Asia are pretty darn rural to and it looks like America is being left behind in the great Bitcoin race.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:19 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Can I interest you in some Linden Dollars?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:36 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Allow me to extrapolate on the simpleton's theory of "if you don't hold it" style value.....

If an oil or gold company spends years and millions of dollars exploring an area then it is just the final product that has any value.  All of the man hours and engineering?  Valueless.  All of the technology that allowed them to find the goods?  Valueless.  All of the communications, data and distribution?  Valueless.

Yep.  It's just that one final barrel of oil or bar of gold that has any value according to the literalist simpleton.

Of course anyone with any intelligence realizes that it's a big world out there and there's more than one type of value and many of them have more importance than their literalist definitions of value.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:40 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

The Great Bitcoin Race????

Did you really say that?

If the ZH that are doing all the talking are actually following up on that talk, there is gonna to be a lot of sad puppies here.. Though a couple might turn a tidy profit...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:45 | Link to Comment markmotive
markmotive's picture
Bitcoin's Achille's Heel is electricity.

 

Mickey Malka, Jim Rickards Argue Over Bitcoin Utility, Longevity

http://www.planbeconomics.com/2013/06/mickey-malka-jim-rickards-argue-ov...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:52 | Link to Comment Stackers
Stackers's picture

I highly respect Mr. Schiff's opinion, but he is sitting here explaining to us why an apple doesn't taste like an orange.

Bitcoin has vast pontential for value growth in real terms as the flood of liquidity sloshing around the globe looks for places to go and it is accepted in more and more places as a spendable currency.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:59 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

There is no reason for anyone NOT to own at least a little BTC if wanted!  Gold Guy Bearing believes that BTC might be a promising new technology, but there are many unknowns...

There is nothing wrong with owning, say, 98% of your "extra" wealth in gold and the other 2% in BTC.

(my comment above is just an example).

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:10 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I've read Menger, von Mises and I can only imagine their faceplam at this blog's members.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:41 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Since you have read those tow, it's obvious you missed Hatek and Rothbard on the topic, since they are the ones that spcifically spoke on how something is valuated. The only work Mises did on money was his initial theory. Menger's work was outdated by the 1900's and Mises came around to fix it.

 

So masically you likely are lost in the sauce and thinking you are ahead of the curve, but in reality are well behind it.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:48 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I'm so far ahead of the curve I appear behind it to those stuck in space-time.  I've already bought what you were thinking of selling.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:35 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

No, you just seem to be on the wrong planet that's all...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 05:49 | Link to Comment TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

Fucking Reptilians; they're everywhere!

Did I just make a racist comment?!

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 06:47 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

"Bitcoin, repelling stupid people since 2009"

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 07:37 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Bitcoin, something you jumped on after everyone else already laughed at it.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:59 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I've been pumping Bitcoin on here since 2011.  Go read something.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 13:27 | Link to Comment Thisson
Thisson's picture

I can't understand how you're continually pumping BTC when we have pointed out repeatedly the various problems with it.

#1) It's vulnerable to competition due to no barriers to entry;

#2) Its reviled by the USG and can be terminated by the USG at any time through a 51% attack, which would cost the USG pocket change.  Source: http://coinometrics.com/bitcoin/brix 

#3) Most bitcoins do not transact.  They're hoarded by early adopters (source: http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf)

#4) It's not anonymous and fully traceable by those with technical proficiency (source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/09/05/follow-the-bitcoins-how-we-got-busted-buying-drugs-on-silk-roads-black-market)

#5) It's likely a Ponzi scheme (source: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_chicago/2013/04/bitcoin_is_a_ponzi_scheme_the_internet_currency_will_collapse.html)

#6) Trading bitcoins is a no-recourse transaction.  If you tender your coins and don't receive what you were promised in return, you can't do anything about it.

Conclusion: Bitcoin is for suckers.  Sure, it's gone up in price.  So did Tulip Bulbs.  I will wait for a proper crypto currency.  Bitcoin isn't it.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 07:36 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Sure you are, next thing you will tell me is that you know what I am invested in...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 03:29 | Link to Comment Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Electricity also is appear problem for mining of subterranean copper ore in urban and suburban territory.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 11:38 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Yep, the intrinsic value of electrical current can be a real bitch to handle.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:45 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

"Though a couple might turn a tidy profit..."

 

That would be me.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:54 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Good for you...

Just remember, the screw always turns...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:31 | Link to Comment XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

So you're not the guy on reddit who lost $24k trading bitcoins on margin?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:35 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

No, I dumped at $780.  Didn't get it quite right but close enough and no margin.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:46 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

You dumped it after so much pumping? I'm so surprised... but wasn't it you saying it was going to go straight to infinity and beyond? Seems to me that, at 780, you kind of chickened out... - afraid of heights?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:50 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

When did I say that?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 07:36 | Link to Comment Gumbum
Gumbum's picture

Wait...you dumped them? That makes all your talk crap. You are using Bitcoin as a speculative instrument...nothing more. You count on a greater fool willing to pay more then you did.

You are not in it for the "revolution"...you are in it for a quick buck.

 

You should rename from fonestar to phonystar.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:11 | Link to Comment ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

An honest look at the risk-reward balance indicates that bitcoin is only good for speculation.

Risks:

(1) Competing digital currencies (2) government laws restricting/outlawing bitcoin (3) value crashes due to greater fool dynamics

Rewards: 

(2) You find a greater fool to pay you more for bitcoin than you paid

If you hit the jackpot and mined your bitcoin at a low price and are sitting on a 5- or 6-figure profit. The risk of losing that profit is greater than the potential for increasing that profit. Dumping your bitcoin is the proper course of action. 

 

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:06 | Link to Comment foodisgood
foodisgood's picture

What the f does any one know of Value when they never paid the Cost

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:41 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Freedom isn't free.  It costs a buck o' five.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE8BgQzyktE

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 05:02 | Link to Comment Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Isn't that great you're the only guy to up vote you? What an ASSHOLE you are.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:37 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Wait... lolwut?!?

So if after "years and millions of dollars" you don't find any oil or gold, you think you can just go and sell all those wasted man hours and engineering back to recoup losses? Where's that, where you live - an asylum? That would explain a lot...

Seems to me that it ain't so, and if not, then yes, they're totally worthless and hence their only worth comes from whatever oil or gold they'll yield... like, if you can't mine an hash, can you still cash on the time spent trying? Because if you can't, they're actually worthless themselves, aren't they?

You really don't seem to get the basic notion of value - intrinsic or extrinsic - right, do you?...

Btw, do you know what oil companies' engineers do, after spending "years and millions of dollars" worth of prospections, with charts of "dry" areas? Yep, they just exchange them among themselves for fun and for free - that's how valuable that work is...

<facepalm>

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:19 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

So can I start a business and tell my new hires that maybe I will pay them if they make any sales or if I personally make enough profit?  That until they produce some value they have no value?

Maybe you should go take a business course.....

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 03:44 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

there's a good reason why they're called 'sunk costs'...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:12 | Link to Comment ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Umm, that's what happens with startups vis-a-vis stock options.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 11:12 | Link to Comment funthea
funthea's picture

It's not that the time/energy put in is valuless, it's that the bar/barrel is validation of that time/energy. That is the essence of the age old property of PM's.

To your other point of competeing digital curencies. The value you give to compitition is warrented. However, When gold and silver compete, they keep each other in check because that have the same properties but different quantaties of scarcity. With digital currencies competing... they merely cancel each other out because they show that their only difference is their name and who created them. So in essence you could have limitless perfectly viable digital currencies competing, which will play havok on their precieved value. In the end, the digital currency with the better marketing or enforcement would win the day. Problem is it would more likely be "Government Coin" with the enforcement of law than with bitcoin. Wut will the value be then?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:40 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Millions of people have been using Canadian Tire money (real paper notes) for purchases at Canadian Tire.  For decades!

It may not be 'currency' anywhere else, but I've seen people accept it as "part payment", knowing that they'll use it at the Canadian Tire store.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:54 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Club Med used to force customers to use their own "currency" within their premises, in Portugal - until they were raided by local FTC equivalent, that is...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 09:45 | Link to Comment IllusionOfChoice
IllusionOfChoice's picture

Can I interest you in some FRNs?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:23 | Link to Comment PP
PP's picture

more expensive the Bitcoin, more Bitcoin cousins will be developed, then you will see not only BTC, but from AAATC to ZZZTC

it is not very difficult to develop another advanced aglo and Bitcoin 2.0

But I think they will have no mercy to pay bitcoin reserver $1000/old bitcoin to them to let them exchange new digital currencies

That is why only gold left in entire Human currency history, you can not find a thing to replace Gold, but digital currency can be created in other forms

In China more than 50% people only invest physical gold, they don't touch gold stock, ETF, Comex or such "advanced" digit currencies

Bitcoin's price trend is similar to FNMA, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

 

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:38 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Another very good point, well stated.

 

AAACoin

AABCoin

AACCoin....

 

 

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:28 | Link to Comment aminorex
aminorex's picture

There are hundreds of alternative cryptocurrencies and they are all worthless.  The reason is simple, although hoi polloi don't get it, and thus will never be wealthy.  The value of money is determined by PQ=MV.  Think of it as the ideal gas law for economics.  It is essentially tautological, and irrefutable.  That means the value of money is determined by the network.  Gold is worthless without it's tradition-based network.  The bitcoin network is based on something much more reliable than tradition: Mathematical proof.  If Western Union and Moneygram international remittances, and only those two systems, are displaced by bitcoin, the value of each bitcoin is $500bn/(6*15mn), or about $5k.  In fact, bitcoin is a killer application which will displace many other uses of fiat because it is so much cheaper to use.  Moreover, it is not merely a currency.  It is in fact a global ledger in which contracts can be signed without political or counterparty risk.  Vast tiers of transactional systems can be innovated into existence on top of that, and all the idiots in the world can't stop it.

 

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:33 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

+1  Thank you for that brief reprieve of sanity.

 

Now back to business....

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:47 | Link to Comment carlin401
carlin401's picture

del

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:48 | Link to Comment carlin401
carlin401's picture

There is NO fucking god-damn mathematical 'proof' of BITCOIN.

STOP these MOFU lies.

There is a small college algebra probability proof that so long as there are no less than a 250 good guy to bad guy ratio, that the quality of blocks will be >.99%, ... but that doesn't prove shit. The problem today is that MOST of the POOL-MINERS are BAD-GUYS, this is why its GAME-OVER.

BTC is fucking software, a program written by Satoshi 4+ years ago, that has now been hacked to shit by bitcoin.org, a political organization of lobbyists already working behind closed doors in WASH-DC.

LIES *** https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Main_Page

99% of the PRO talking points about BTC come from a fraudulent website called bitcoin.it,

There is only one place to go to hear both sides of the BTC story, and that is wikipedia and search 'bitcoin', there you will learn the truth.

TRUTH *** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin

Given that 100% of the supporters of BTC on ZH must tell lies, .. that is a pretty good indicator that this thing is a 100% fraud.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 05:01 | Link to Comment Squid-puppets a...
Squid-puppets a-go-go's picture

dude - and i say this in the context that i have grave doubts about bitcoin - you're being a bit full-on.

only a small percentage of genuine trolls here deliberately lie - and lemme tell you, the paid trolls on this site are not pro-BTC, they're pro fiat ergo anti BTC

thus the majority of those who are pro bitcoin - and who say what you purport to be 'LIES!!!!' - are actually well meaning people who have taken on faith - foolishly or not - information they have gleaned from a multitude of sources and come to the (however correct or erroneous) conclusions that they share here on ZH

some may do that with a sense of conviction that is annoying and misguided, but that doesnt justify you blowing your cool

you have a great wealth of info to share here on ZH and your technical prowess is indisputably top notch. But just remember cool heads are the more persuasive ones.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:24 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Nothing stops any such company from coming up with their own similar/better *coin and kill it, by beating it at its own game with their corporate weight and established customer base.

Tradition does mean a lot in real business, and math has nothing to do with it - you'd need to go (way) back in time and patent virtual currency concept altogether for it to be worth anything...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:18 | Link to Comment ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Bitcoin-istas insist with religious-like fervor that bitcoin will spread across the Earth. I think a better analogy is bitcoin is MySpace, the first entry into a new technology. MySpace had it all going for it because it was first (or the first social media site that was widely accepted). Then competition sprung up due to its success, and like Ozymandias MySpace was swept away by the sands of progress. 

Will bitcoin be able to stay ahead of its future competition? Who knows.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 06:54 | Link to Comment tocointhephrase
tocointhephrase's picture

WTFcoin?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:01 | Link to Comment ejmoosa
ejmoosa's picture

When it pops, will call it Zitcoin....

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:55 | Link to Comment Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

A desire to find alternatives (and safety) beyond the grasp of TPTB will be futile. Five dollar wrench across the knee will always trump prime numbers.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:06 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Personally, I've already moved on to Litecoin but I'm still trying to push people into Bitcoin.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:17 | Link to Comment carlin401
carlin401's picture

Why would you want to 'push' another person to economic ruin?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 05:05 | Link to Comment Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

because he is a useless nigger?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:22 | Link to Comment fencejumper
fencejumper's picture

Why are you "still trying to push people into Bitcoin" if you are into Litecoin?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:25 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Because by the time mom & pops hear about something on the news you need something new lined up.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:55 | Link to Comment fencejumper
fencejumper's picture

Sorry, fonestar, but...FAIL!

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:32 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

*Plonk*

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:15 | Link to Comment carlin401
carlin401's picture

Well 99% of the people in the world ( india / china ) you buy gold in person for cash and take possession.

Only a fucking idiot buy's gold on the internet.

Only a fucking idiots buy's BTC's.

Ok, mining them for free if it was still possible, ok,... but paying real money? That is bullshit.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:41 | Link to Comment willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Possible, but I don't think it will happen in the near future. There are hedge fund clients BEGGING for larger returns these days. Do you think that a few hundred funds won't pass up the chance to risk 2% of their pool for a higher yield? A much higher yield? THAT is what will keep it stable in the short term, then comes the "respectable" corps. When that happens it will get skyrocketed.  Do the Feds care? Not anymore. Any exchange needs to have a proof of ID. A hassel, but that's what you need when you open up a checking account. People will get over it.The Feds will simply tax the income from merchants.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:55 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Consider all those hedge funds that sold short dated debt to buy higher yielding longer dated notes on leverage and making 13-16% net per year for 20 years or so.

It was inevitable that one day short rates would rise higher than long rates which happened when Bernanke raised rates to 5.25% and caused all this mess. It took $750 Billion in TARP (and all that's come after) to prevent the collapse and enable hedge funds to exit without total collapse. The most important aspect of any investment is always the exit.

'When all the gold investors currently holding BTC try and exit at the same time and get back into gold and silver you will find out the true intrinsic value of Bitcoin very quickly.'

and it doesn't matter how long it takes.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:07 | Link to Comment willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Look at what mess they got the US economy into when they HAD to do TARP-and continue to do it. Do you really think gold/silver miners will offer their PMs up at these manipulated prices much longer? I think we should regulate all beer companies and TELL them they can't sell for over $x. It's for the children's (Dads)!

That'll work.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:27 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

As much as I like Schiff and his videos castigating the members of CNBC he is really wrong on Bitcoin.  The idea of "intrinsic value" is red-herring as all value is ultimately subjective anyway.  Sorry gold bugs, but there is no magical atoms inside gold or silver or inside anything else that gives it value.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:32 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Rubbish.

When gold goes down I turn it into jewelry. I wear it, I pose and show off like many kings and queens before me, ergo  'intrinsic value'.

When it goes back up I turn it back into money.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:46 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

'Rubbish' to you to.  Clearly you do not know the difference between 'money' and 'currency'/fiat, because you said: "When it goes back up I turn it back into money."

You should said: "When it goes back up I turn it back into currency".

And, BTW, I can assure you that 95% of gold bugs don't give a damn about gold for its "jewelry" value.  Unless you're the type with the pimp-mobile and gold chains like Mr T.  Or you're from India.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:49 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

You've not been around the world much...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:45 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

No I turn it back into money.

And on what basis are you going to assure me anything about 95% of goldbugs? On what authority do you profess to speak on their behalf?

Let me guess, you just fuckin made it up didn't you? Funny old thing...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:02 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

The US is the only country I have been to where gold is not a big deal to the people. It's also the only country where I have met idiots that are happy with their life if they can buy sweat shop shoes just because they have a specific name attached to them.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:13 | Link to Comment carlin401
carlin401's picture

Well you don't live in Asia,

Here there is a gold shop on every corner, and all is measured by gold and when women go outside and there not wearing gold, it means she ain't got shit.

In Asia GOLD talks and everything else Walks,

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 07:38 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Says who? You? How in the fuck do you know where I live?

The rest is not worth replying to. Time will come where every idiot on the street will wish they had bought into PM's.

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:33 | Link to Comment garypaul
garypaul's picture

No magical atoms inside gold? Then why don't you create some gold for me (it should be easy).

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:41 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

That's not what people mean by "intrinsic value".  Gold and silver do have specific properties that make it an excellent store of wealth (stable at room temperature, malleable, divisibility, etc) as well as intrinsically invaluable to application-specific electronics.

But ultimately, subjectivity determines situational value.  If you don't believe me you can ask an Eskimo how valuable your ice machine is or the fijian tribesman how valuable your oil heater is to him?

Bitcoin's "intrinsic value" could be considered its cryptographic properties.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:47 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

How can you apply intrinsic value to a bunch of electrons speeding down a wire that could vanish at the throw of a switch?

You can't

The very idea is like saying ok go and find all the multiples of 9 up to 1000, hey I found one it's the number 81!!! now I can buy some product by giving this person my number 81.

Completely retarded

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:51 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

How can you kill them flowing down a switch?  What do you even mean?  Do you mean if the session were to end?  I don't even get your question, everything is stored in the block chain so it wouldn't matter.

Stick to commenting on things you know about.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:53 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

The person pumping bitcoin doesn't even understand the concept of an electrical circuit.....great

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:57 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I think it is you that does not understand systems, in this case Bitcoin and its operation.  Like I said before, Bitcoin is not for everyone.

Stick to flipping burgers, mopping floors, whatever it is you do...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:03 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Ahhhh ad hominem, are you getting mad that I am driving trucks through your logic?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:06 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Is that the same "logic" you got from that latin dictionary you threw together on your lunch break?   Hahahahaha.....

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:14 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

I think I broke the trollbot bitcoin pumper....this makes no sense.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 11:32 | Link to Comment Pesky Labrador
Pesky Labrador's picture

EMP > Bitcoin

Gold > EMP

logic?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:06 | Link to Comment Haole
Haole's picture

You're a masochist for still spending so much time as a proponent of BTC in these threads, I wonder why you bother but it is great entertainment. We could still be having these same arguments at $5000 in ZH threads and I can't wait to see how deranged some will be by then if it happens.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:09 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Oh, I will be here still making fun of simpletons raging with their arms in the air.  Crying about why reality shouldn't be the way it is, why everyone buying Bitcoin is wrong, making up nonsense about "intrinsic value", trying to save everyone from an EMP, blah, blah, blah...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:17 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Making up nonsense about intrinsic value....BWHAHAHAHAHA.

 

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:24 | Link to Comment Haole
Haole's picture

Interesting that the powers that be in this world have allowed gold and silver to be devalued thousands of percent in terms of real purchasing power against Bitcoin, isn't it?

Which one has more intrinsic value?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:42 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Can I interest you in some tulips?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:09 | Link to Comment Haole
Haole's picture

The difference as of yet is, I'm right in speaking the truth and you're just adding another retarded echo to the chamber.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 07:08 | Link to Comment Squid-puppets a...
Squid-puppets a-go-go's picture

supressing gold n silver is a bait n switch that plays out over decades. Bitcoins bait n switch is on a timeline no-one has yet established

fucked if im trusting my family's prosperity to bitcoin

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:50 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Because comparing a market mania from three centuries ago to a modern currency that is destroying your currency is totally relevant.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:57 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

You clearly missed that the use of tulip was symbolic....

BTW, what exactly do you mean "destroying my currency"...

I did not know I even had a currency.... 

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:05 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I think you need to go back and re-read your history. The Tulip was being used as a currency back then. That is what set off the whole mania...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:15 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

"Interesting that the powers that be in this world have allowed gold and silver to be devalued thousands of percent in terms of real purchasing power against Bitcoin, isn't it?"

Don't you know?  It's all part of a big plot, they're just waiting for the right moment and once everyone is into Bitcoin they will mandate that you have a chip inserted in you to be able to use Bitcoin.


Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:37 | Link to Comment quartshort
quartshort's picture

Required

Foreseeable

Installed

Device

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:07 | Link to Comment carlin401
carlin401's picture

Haven't you noticed that all the people pimping BTC's are idiots, not a one understand its a software program, well greased to enrich a few people. In fact Sharim has already proved that 6-12 people own/control 90% of the BTC's, ... That these people all had these BTC's in their possession back to 2010.

They always talk about 'math' magic, but there is no math in the SATOSHI paper, other than one little trivial probability theorem from first year prob. In that one case of 'math' used in the paper its just to prove his assertion that if the majority > 500 to 1 of the users 'good honest people' then the system will work, but its now been proven that 99% of the 'mining-pools' are crooks, so the system is now already in 'critical', the only thing keeping the dam holding back is 'greed' as the founder's are too fucking greedy to take their chip's and run.

These pimps don't understand software, they don't understand math, they're just looking for other idiots to join their 'cult', not unlike Scientology, or any other moronic cult where people toss away their money.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:36 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

You understand the meaning of electric switches, as well as that of intrinsic value... - go stick your fingers in a live power socket for an intrinsically valuable insightful enlightenment on it...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:18 | Link to Comment Mad Mohel
Mad Mohel's picture

You don't get the question? You stupid or pretending to be stupid?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:04 | Link to Comment clymer
clymer's picture

What is gold? Why not ask what is Astronomy? An element so rare that despite thousands of years of extraction and a range of ingenious methods humans have only gathered 165,000 tons.

Perhaps the most remarkable fact about Gold is it’s origin. I’s rarity points to something special. This isn’t an element that comes together easily; in fact a cataclysmic event – a supernova, which is the work of a gigantic dying star, that died so dramatically and with such high temperatures and pressures that it made its way through the periodic table in its last dying seconds. When it happens Star death is fast. It takes a few seconds to produce the final elements.

Earth was formed from the debris that contained Gold. But the Gold we collect as coins isn’t really from Earth. Gold is heavy. Earth’s Gold is locked deep inside it’s core, gravitationally differentiated away from the surface during our planets evolution. The gold we find on our rocky surface arrived later, locked in rocks and dust that fell to Earth, probably during the late heavy bombardment.

Sat, 11/23/2013 - 05:45 | Link to Comment Amagnonx
Amagnonx's picture

Rubbish - As if the earth was formed from cosmic 'dust' - what a load of utter rubbish. Einstein and his moronic scribblings have dealt physics a near death blow this century.

Theoretical physics has become a religious cult, with its Big Bang creation myth, the holy spirit of 'dark energy' and 'dark matter', the great Satan of 'black holes', its PhD priests and its departed saints, St. Einstein .. bah.

Gold and other heavy elements are created through plasma sputtering, and are right now being created both in our sun and within our planet. The earth was ejected either from Jupiter or Sol, as a stable toroidal plasma accelerator - the surface was originally plasma trapped in the magnetic field, then through sputtering formed a range of elements, cooled to liquid, then cooled a solid crust on top. That is the story of the creation of the earth, not some nonsense cloud of supernova 'dust'.

The sun does not run on fusion, thats wrong by inspection of the temperature gradients - but who are we to believe, the priests of theoretical physics, or our own lying eyes?

Sat, 11/23/2013 - 10:34 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

This is about as plausible as what is in the Bible...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:21 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Gold's intrinsic value is not being a store of wealth; that's not even a value, that's just consequencial to its actual intrinsic value, which is its physical properties and what they allow you to do with it that you can't do with anything else, unlike your can of steam, which is just as empty and replaceable as any other can of steam...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:07 | Link to Comment ejmoosa
ejmoosa's picture

Let's talk intrinsic value....

The shit hits the fan....

Are you selling your goods to the guy with gold or silver, or the guy offering you bitcoins?

Your currency is only as good as the next guy who is willing to accept it from you.  

I'll only be accepting the metals.  The bitcoiners can find some other sucker.

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:45 | Link to Comment MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

It used to be called 'The Philosopher's Stone'. The 'dream of the ages', was to do Necromancy; to convert lead in to gold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjxHgBRWMhY

 

Attention spans are getting shorter, as time passes.

 

 

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:36 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

The very fact you are on here puming bitcoin and harassing anyone that doesn't like it by calling them fake libertarians and using terms like magical atoms (of which bitcoin has no atoms) is a very good indication that it the latest steamer waiting to set sail.....

 

All aboard the SS Ifuckingtoldyouso

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:45 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I work with an engineer from China.  According to him his friends and relatives back home are having no problems finding the value in a currency that is the most fungible, counterfeit proof, confiscation-resistant and naturally tends to increase in value.  So I really guess it's your problem and not ours then isn't it?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:56 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Fungible? are you fucking jokin?

If I wanted to buy 10 bitcoins and then sell them again 1 day later the round trip would take me 4 fucking weeks.....

2 weeks to send the money to the exchange and have my account credited then another two weeks for them to send me a cheque for my sale.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:00 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Again, you're an idiot.  Stick to tactile things if that makes things anymore "real" to you.  Hahahaha....

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:02 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Hahahaha?

Fungibility = The state of being interchangeable.....

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:37 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Any bitcoin is interchangeable with any other bitcoin.  The political problems of gov't issued fiat and their banks are not related to the fungibility of BTC and are experienced for any exchange be it stocks or gold, etc.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 03:24 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

'Any bitcoin is interchangeable with any other bitcoin.'

No shit. This is rocket science, pure fuckin rocket science. No doubt this is what gives it it's value...

Now, how many bananas can I swap for this banana... must be valuable then eh?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:29 | Link to Comment ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

To quote Inego Montoya "Why do you keepa using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means"

Something is fungible if it is interchangeable with something that is different from the first thing. In fiat money systems, cash and credit are fungible because they are interchangeable when it comes to buying things. A bitcoin is not fungible if all bitcoins spend the same. Bitcoins are only fungible with cash and credit on a very limited basis. Come on, fonestar, at least know what the words mean.

Sun, 11/24/2013 - 21:50 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

This is plain rubbish. News flash: anything can be exchanged if the price is right for the buyer and the seller.  Fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are capable of mutual substitution, such as sweet crude oil, shares in a company, bonds, precious metals, or currencies.

Cattle are not fungible.  They come in too many breeds, sizes, health status, etc.  Gold, Dollars and Bitcoins are fungible.  Are you confusing liquidity with fungibility?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:03 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

well actually he does have a good point here...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:16 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Uh, not really.  I've never bothered with an exchange.  What the hell is the point of that on a distributed p2p network anyway?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:25 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Yes there is no need for an exchange to buy or sell bitcoins...none at all! People who want bitcoins shall recieve bitcoins by miracle.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:57 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Just come knock on my door, I'll sell you some bitcoin person-to-person.  I won't even you through the KYC/AML drill.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 03:19 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

I don't think he's interested...

like most other sensible people...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:52 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Thunder Child, look up the word "Fungible" in a dictionary.  Clearly you need to.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:06 | Link to Comment MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

Well, since you work with an 'engineer' from 'CHINA', you are the 'go-to guy' in this matter of 'bitcoins versus gold'.

 

No doubt, you will post the figures of the CHICOM PLA purchases of BITCOIN (versus the physical reciept of GOLD by the PLA and brokers within). This should be an iteresting comparison.

FONESTAR? No, I don't think so.

DICKWEED COMMIE CHICOM PLANT CORPORATE WHORE Sheople?

Well, probably.

'I work with a totalitarian commie banker in the East, and HE said...'

Yup.

Most of the women I've been with have told me that Chinese men have small penises, and were far easier to suck, after I asked if they enjoyed me. Do you find this to be true?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:22 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, somewhat ironic that the communist Chinese are merrily engaging in subversive Bitcoin purchases while the Americans are too pussy to buy any because their government might enact legislation regarding Bitcoin.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:30 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Yes we are pussy because we don't want to send thousands of dollars to some shady exchange half way around the world....

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:41 | Link to Comment XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Actually, i'm not buying in because it's a worthless ponzi scheme that is going to fuck all of you bitcoiners sooner or later.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 02:01 | Link to Comment carlin401
carlin401's picture

Please in god's sweet name please quit insulting ponzi and madoff.

A ponzi is when you pay suckers interest and use the money of new suckers to pay interest to the old buyers. All ponzi's involve the payment of interest. A ponzi is when the newbies 'new' money brought to the table, cover the old-timers that want out.

The BTC is a pyramidal chain-letter, where nobody get's anything but an IOU, and the first guys pay next to nothing, and everybody that passed the letter pay's more, all hoping and waiting for the greatest sucker to cash out.

Madoff was a Ponzi. Charles Ponzi paid interest, BTC doesn't pay back shit,

BTC is 'hotel california', your money can visit, but it can never go.

In the case of BTC over 90% of the outstanding BTC's are dormant and never flip, and very little convert back to cash, almost all the activity is on the buy side, which is why the price goes up.

Cleverly all are in on the scam ( pool-miners, exchanges, and zh pimps ), as like Hotel California, they have made it 'easy' to bring you money into the virtual casino, but impossible to ever leave.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 03:03 | Link to Comment thisandthat
thisandthat's picture

Ponzi and pyramidal scheme are just the same thing - in the US it's called "Ponzi", for the (in)famous scammer; the rest of the world never heard of him and just call it pyramidal scheme.

Nevertheless, that's just what btc is - you basically pay earlier gamers to get in and get a piece of the pie from later gamers; if other Ponzis allowed you to sell your "shares" for profit, they would be exactly like btc, and could grow beyond their usual sucker-base, by attracting more late-gamers for longer, into "profiting" from it just like the "big boys"...

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:39 | Link to Comment sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

You are missing the point on this.  Gold is just as much a fiat currency as are Federal Reserve Notes.  But then so are Bitcoins.  The difference is, you can print FRNs and you can't print gold.  So gold remains a stable way to hold wealth.  Bitcoins MAY be stable for a while, but when the incentive becomes too great, they WILL be hacked and your wealth will disappear.

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:40 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

'Gold is just as much a fiat currency as are Federal Reserve Notes.'

?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:05 | Link to Comment Alhazred
Alhazred's picture

Print this:

http://www.bgasc.com/product/1-oz-gold-bars-sealed-new-with-assay-card-b...

Can't? Didn't think so.

Also any currency created this way will fail

1. "Ctrl"+"C"
2. "Ctrl"+"V"

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:24 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

If there's a government order stating you are required to use gold to settle debts and payment, gold becomes a fiat currency.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:55 | Link to Comment sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

Does the Article 1, Section 10 of the US Constitution fall within your meaning of a "government order?"  Just curious.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:52 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

No it doesn't.

Where do you make this stuff up?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 03:21 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

No, it becomes a gold standard. Currencies are not limited by physical quantity. Standards and actual Money are.

 

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:40 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Gold is just as much a fiat currency as are Federal Reserve Notes.

Are you fucking retarded? do you even know what FIAT means?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:50 | Link to Comment sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

No, I just made that up...why don't you explain it for us please?

Thu, 11/21/2013 - 23:54 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

Oh yes I am sure everyone on ZH wants to hear the definition of FIAT for the umpteen millionth time.......

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:55 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:05 | Link to Comment sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

Then you understand that "Fiat" is latin for a decree or declaration.  FRNs, Bitcoins, seashells, and gold are ALL fiat currencies.  That is what "we agree" on.  Do you think gold would be a currency if it were as freely available as seashells?  Nevertheless, it is still a fiat currency, but the best one available so far.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:11 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

An 'agreement' between two parties is not a decree or official order nor is it a authorization or sanction or law..try again.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:28 | Link to Comment sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

Seriously.  Try to use your brain for minute.  You can do this.  Are FRNs an agreement between two parties?  Is gold an agreement between two parties?  Take your time on this.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:35 | Link to Comment The Thunder Child
The Thunder Child's picture

No FRN's are a law, an order from government ie. FIAT not an agreement between two parties

No wonder I rarely post on ZH anymore, all the good posters bailed....I'm done for the eve.

Shout outs to Pods, Yen, Fonz, Bay of Pigs, Knuckles, HH, CogDis and all the other regulars holding it down that I didn't name!

What ever happened to McMolotov?

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:42 | Link to Comment sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

Gold is also a store of wealth and a currency because we have agreed for the last 7,000 years that it would be.  If a solid gold meteorite hit the earth tomorrow in a soft landing, do you think gold would have any remaining value?  Hence the agreement or declaration of value of gold would disappear overnight.  Because it is also fiat. 

However, gold is the best store of wealth that we have today.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 00:52 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Is it really the best store of wealth? 

For example oil has outperformed gold going back 50 years.... Now admittedly oil is a crappy MOE and it is not a store of wealth but gold has depreciated against the alpha commodity of modern civilization....

A case of 1982 Mouton Rothschild has appreciated 150 fold...   The very definition of a liquiid asset... \rimshot

Fine art is an excellent store of wealth, better than gold, by far...

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:32 | Link to Comment sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

Good point, that's why Sotheby's auction prices are going sky high.  Now if you come across a spare case of 1982 Mouton Rothschild, be sure to let me know!

 

Somebody down arrowed you for the Mouton Rothschild comment?  Fucking teetotalers on ZH no less.

Fri, 11/22/2013 - 01:43 | Link to Comment Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Re; the junk, some people don't like the way I play here...

Actaully, a good friend of mine parted with an unopened case of the 82 recently with a dealer, he told me he pocketed $13,000....

He had held it for many years....

Actually I goofed on the appreciation factor, it was closer to 100... mea culpa....

Most of my old stuff is gone, only a few lonely soldiers left... e.g. 1990 Magnum of Lascombes...

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