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Ron "Austrian" Paul Vs. Paul "Keynesian" Krugman - You Decide
The concept of the business cycle and its un-natural intervention-inspired boom-bust process is at the core of the following three minutes of dueling quotes from two of the most infamous public proponents of change (Ron Paul) and the status quo (Paul Krugman).
- "Cut interest rates a couple of percentage points, provide plenty of liquidity, and call me in the morning." - Krugman
- "Printing money is not an answer... Like all artificially-created bubbles, the boom... cannot last forever." - Paul
You decide who "was" right, and who "will be" right again...
(h/t Jim Quinn's Burning Platform)
Of course, we've seen them head-to-head before...
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As unfair a pairing as Obama vs Flavor Flav! Because Flavor Flav would do a much better job of being president!
Boris is cannot load Flash video, but even not watch, know Ron Paul is beat life crap out of Paul Krugman, break every bone in face (which is good for aggregate demand in local economy as employment of emergency physician and triage nurse).
Classic!
"Are you Paul Krugman? My dad loves your sh!t."
http://www.planbeconomics.com/2013/05/are-you-paul-krugman.html
money is not just green pieces of paper...we're not sure where the line between money and non-money is..
for this kind of thinking he gets a noble prize in economics? it's almost as ludicrous as Obama getting his noble peace prize. why don't they just get honest and call it the NWO prize instead?
That comment was unbelievably ignorant by Krugman and simply emphasizes the complete communist sham that is the Nobel Prize awarding structure. Those fuckers in Scandanavia need to be strung up when the time comes as well as all these psuedo intellectual leftists who receive their prizes or work for the UN.
Get the rope!
Want to hear a joke, punchline first?: "And the Nobel prize goes to..." LOL
Paper Paul vs. Gold-backed paper Paul.
Why do you want gold backed money? Oh right, so your grandkids can do this all over again.
obamnomics. like ebonics. it's a new math. you too old. can't learn it.
I knew coward Krugman growing up, He always got his Snoopy lunch pal taken away from him at lunch and now he wants to take everyones lunch money away from them via his big bully friends the Federal Reserve(Bernanke and Yellen).
Paul Krugman is like Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" when he debates someone intellectually superior -
Raymond (or in this case Krugman): "Of course I don't have my underwear. I'm definitely not wearing my underwear."
It's not really a fair fight if one debater is allowed to tell lies and the other doesn't.
The whole idea of power is to tell intellectually lazy and stupid people something they want to believe. If people want to believe in fairy tales then they will believe them. Krugman is doing his job as the head fairy tale spokesperson for the elites.
Cult of personality, been around a long time.
The game plan now for the elites is to create more dumb voters faster than the internet can educate the masses.
Bravo!
Only one thing. You forgot to mention the "intellect-cide" box that brings all of this flash and fancy idiocy to the masses.
Anything that can spread information faster, also can be used to spread more disinformation and propaganda even faster.
Ron Paul for President in 2016, if we make it that far before the armed revolt begins.
<-- Ron Paul
<-- Hillary Clinton
Obvious who is better qualify, but if judge by manly pant suit is real to be toss up.
Political solution is not going to happen - in a rigged system, voting is an exercise in self-delusion. The "government" has other plans:
U.S. Government Preparing for Collapse (and Not in a Nice Way)"The powers that be have no intention of becoming the powers that were" (or giving us any real choice).
I think the "head trauma" that caused the Benghazi amnesia should automatically disqualify billary.
no doubt busted her head open on a drunken lesbo tryst with Huma.
That's okay, she woke up the next day and forgot all about it, so it all good.
You know, in this fucked up world, it's things like Benghazi that makes her qualified to run for office?
Ron Paul - the greatest President America NEVER had.
Ron needs another chance to quit at the finish line?
Don't you mean when the State owned media decides that any real debate should be silenced?
Knowing how much harder it would be for him, he should have tried harder. He should have hired a better team. Bright young college students were ready to do for him what another pack of bright young college students did for Obama. There were plenty of electors ready to chose Paul. He should have lied and told them there'd be jobs for them in his administration, and then shut down 2/3 of the government in January.
Ron Paul: "Inflation is theft."
That's all that needs to be said. Krugman's argument is essentially: This theft results in the greater good. This argument is as old as the forbidden fruit. If we could all benefit from murder, are we so base and such worshippers of mammon that we'd encourage and institutionalize it?
I like to play the "Knockout Game" all over Krugman's face.
Krugman. The story of Johnny Appleseed is based on Krugman, except for the part about planting apple seeds and not raping men.
FED "Operation Twist": Bitcoin Crashed To $820 from $$1120 on BitStamp
Welcome to the adult world of the alternatives to FIAT currencies and "End The FED" fighters. Please never mix again the religion and Investment Valuation. In a thin Sunday trade - before the Chinese market opens - Bitcoin has collapsed from $1120 to $820 at the BitStamp today. You still can buy with Bitcoin a few copies of the very important book for all Bitcoin "investors": "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds." We congratulate all traders, who has sold it higher than their purchase price. You are welcome to follow us with other 100 Crypto-Currencies now, but better watch Gold and Silver in the next few days. http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/fed-operation-twist-bitcoin-crashed-...
Quick, buy now before it goes to $2,000!
I prefer watching every bid get hit each time there is a pause and some fresh knife catchers come forward.
Let's hope Fonestar has locked in some gains already.
No, let's hope he hasn't.
:o)
Looks like you pulled out your pre-written article too early. It bounced. Party postponed untl the next shakeout.
Gahdammit, my litecoins got crushed.
Just 'cause I bought some.
Horses tend to break legs when I back them too.
ponders how to make you go long Krugman...or long the status quo
There is no such thing...ah, what's the use? I s'pose I'll stop worrying and learn to luv the QE.
How is the context bullshit? Why didn't you finish the quote?
"The nightmare scenario, which cannot be completely ruled out, is that we will turn out to be more like Japan than we think -- that we have just gone through our own version of the infamous ''bubble economy,'' and that we are about to find out that this time cutting interest rates won't do the trick. But at this point that scenario isn't very plausible."
He pays lip service to countering ideas purely to cover his ass, then continues to contradict himself left and right. Par for the course.
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/27/opinion/reckonings-we-re-not-japan.html
Sure USSA is not Japan keep on lying to oneself I say.
See my reply above.
Question: Since you really don't have enough interest in economics as a science to get the arguments right, why are you here posting comments???
Economics is Not A Science.
The painting of the gold price is almost art.
If it not a science then why post arguments about missed predictions and failed expectations. If is just about "Artistry" then why argue over economic systems like Keynesian economics vs Austrian School?
If economics is not a science then the efforts here on Zero Hedge to bash Krugman's recommnedations to follow fiscal spending policies and build jobs/infrastructure just becomes a Witch Hunt devoid of ideas.
...hmmm...you might have a point here, knukles.
You're making it worse! (Busted!)
Out of context???!? he literally said this - "You see, the general rule -- the rule to which Japan is the great exception -- is that recessions are not a serious problem for large, modern economies. It's not that the forces that cause recessions have been abolished -- though every long expansion brings foolish proclamations of the end of business cycles. Rather, the point is that recessionary tendencies can usually be effectively treated with cheap, over-the-counter medication: cut interest rates a couple of percentage points, provide plenty of liquidity, and call me in the morning."
how is that out of context?? Regardless, had it been out of context, ZH need do nothing to make that moron look like more of a clown than he already is.
13 year old quote. 'nough said.
Your real complaint boils down to Krugman not predicting the severity of the recession and the failure of neoClassical approaches as carried out by Bernanke.
Tell me guys, is a monetary policy like we see "KEYNESIAN"? No, it is not.
FISCAL POLICY TO BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE IS A KEYNESIAN APPROACH...and we do not see that policy being enacted.
NV, the response is not entirely Keynesian. You are correct. But neither has been fiscal policy for as long as I can remember. So, the argument becomes - what does it matter? and why even argue about Krugman?
Krugman is walking the line here - and always has been. Same as Ron Paul. I dont need to watch the clip to know it is just another paddy cake match.
Full blown institution of Krugman's philosophy or even that of Steve Keen would result in full blown chaos.
Update:
Now Bitcoin is at $795 at BitStamp and at $681 at BTC-E - It is a freefall.
Go Gold and Silver
http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/fed-operation-twist-bitcoin-crashed-...
He had me at
"We're not really sure"
and
"I have no idea what that is all about"
You can do barter? Apparently Krugman has never filed taxes.
Krugman writes "bitcoins are in a sense the ultimate fiat currency". He is an incurable inveterate liar and insufferably vain.
Invertebrate, inverterate liar.
And what is wrong about that statement? Code (electrons) as opposed to a piece of paper you can hold and touch... as opposed to a coin that can be melted down into something else... or gold, silver? All fiat.
A fiat currency is - by definition - 'money' because a government says so - and makes it indispensible by demanding it in payment for taxes.
Don't like USD/GBP/Yen/Euro? Tough - supply 'your' taxes to our US?UK?Jap/EC enforcers - in USD/GBP/Yen/Euro - or get thrown in a cage.
When a government starts accepting BTC as part/full payment for taxes, it will be fiat. Until then, it's a genuine free market currency... or, more accurately, a free-market speculation.
Umm, no. Fiat is faith not decree. Sorry. But it can be created with or without government. None different than cavemen trading clamshells.
Sorry, 'fiat' comes from the Latin 'let it be so', ie, you will accept these pieces of paper/bits in a database as having value, because if you don't, you'll be thrown in a cage when you don't supply them as tax every year end - as dictated by government.
The cavemen were trading clamshells because they saw them as having intrinsic value, not because some prehistoric Sauron was going to demand them as tribute every year-end.
Clamshells were commodity money; tally sticks were fiat. NOW do you see the difference?
(of course, as a medium of exchange, all currencies/monies have some element of faith in them... you're trusting that the currency you accept in exchange for real value will be able to purchase roughly the same amount of value from someone else sometime in the future. In fact, placing value in gold & silver is more faith-based than placing value in USD... at least in the short term. It's a faith based on knowledge of monetray history, but it's still a 'faith' in the sense that people are believing (particulalry in the case of gold) that they will be remonetised some time in the future).
BTC is given its value by the people, a currency that is rising naturally from market preferences. Fiat means the government's 'let it be so'. Fiat's key characteristic is that government can create it at will, control it, manipulate it, and force people to use it. For Krugman, who knows better, to call btc fiat currency is a lie, intended to confuse the ignorant. He has the bad character of the most sleazy propagandist.
See above post. BTC is fiat. Hate to break it to you. Is about faith not decree. Nice try though, thanks for playing. Is this amatuer hour at zerohedge? Or are you another paid player pushing BTC?
They're a little long, but pretty entertaining. Many of you may have already seen these, but I thought this the right time to share EconStories' Keynes vs. Hayek videos.
Round 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
Round 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc
I would like to see Paul bring out that idea he presented a while back where he suggested 1% be cut from every single government budget and program. I would LOVE to see the Liberals and Keynesians argue against that.
I pick Ron Paul everytime. I voted for him and as far as I'm concerned he is my President.
Me 2.
He was cheated.
The world in genral suffers from a leadership deficit but in the USA it is sad to say its leadership is intellectually and morally bankrupt.
If the US could not see its way clear to voting for Ron Paul, it is hard to fathom how they could get anything else right.
America needs to stop kicking the can and start kicking itself. The game of pass the parcel is not a moral game particularly if you are playing with the future of your children and grandchildren.
"We're not even sure where the line between money and non money is, it's kind of a continuum".
Now that's how you win a Nobel prize.
Guy's a fuckin genius.
Krugman may well be the reincarnation of John Law the Scottish economist who made a mess of things in France by printing to boot.
The problem with Krugman is that unless he is given free reign to do what he wants, he will always maintain that things would have been fine if they listened to him.
Zimbabwe did though and........
Much as I loathe Krugman, he's essentially correct here.
In our debt-based economies, many objects that are not considered money are money. Your house got a mortgage? No? Then it's not money. Your house got a mortgage? Yes? Well, part of your house's 'value' is actually floating around in the economic ether being traded as a form of money. It may not be as liquid as cash, and will have a wider bid/ask, but money it is, nonetheless. And can be used as collateral to create more money via lending against it as a security.
Krugman's keynesian economic prescription has been US policy since 2001, at least. Bush spent like a drunken sailor after 9/11, and it held off a likely deep recession for 6 years... but govt. misallocation of capital never works for long and when the faux patriotism wore-off we were left with a growing MIC surveillance state, two wars, and an epic financial crisis. Krugman would approve on all counts.
The Bush backlash ushered in the benevolent community organizer - a lifetime beneficiary of politically correct affirmative action policies. Just the other side of the same fascist coin. Obama signed-off on all the same international bank bail-out theft, walked away from reform at any level, re-wrote bankruptcy law, handed trillions in 'stimulus' unions and other political constituencies, and nationalized one-sixth of the domestic economy. Economically speaking, Obama & Bush are identical... bigger government, corporate cronyism, deficit spending, and more regulation.
More than a decade of Krugman-approved keynesian anti-recession medicine has brought us to the edge of cultural/political/economic collapse.
And if Krugman is confronted with this reality? He disowns our current problems by claiming the US did not buy nearly enough of his medicine these past 12 years... trillion dollar deficits, ZIRP, diminishing real per capita income, and significantly larger public sector... the blank checks we've given federal-level politicians simply aren't big enough!
Krugman has *zero* credibility in the real world. Zero.
"Krugman's keynesian economic prescription has been US policy since 2001..." WRONG
Hound, you must be living in some alternate reality.
There has been no Keynesian approach to fixing this disaster. All the important players are neoClassical economists who favor purely monetary policy (ZIRP/Bond Buying) in a trickle-down approach.
Krugman holds no office, his ideas for a Keynesian style Fiscal policy ala FDR/New Deal have been completely ignored.
If you were to see a vibrant jobs program to rebuild the US infrastructure and a green energy grid...then you might have had a point.
All the important players are neoClassical economists who favor purely monetary policy (ZIRP/Bond Buying) in a trickle-down approach.
JFC, you can't even keep your ideas straight in a single sentence! You condemn the supposedly 'NeoClassical' ZIRP and government bond buying as trickle down? Keynesian economics is all about 'trickle-down' - money is handed out BY THE GOVERNMENT!
If you were to see a vibrant jobs program to rebuild the US infrastructure and a green energy grid...then you might have had a point.
Right.. because it's the US' infrastructure that's holding back the economy - not decades of malinvestment (brought about by artificially low interest rates) resulting in distorted asset prices, and stifling government regulation. No! Get the government to spend even more of a proportion of the country's GDP! That's the answer! Cuz bureaucrats and politicians are just so much better at picking winners than consumers... and never give the cash to their cronies! No sir!
You fucking moron. Infrastructure is an expense, and the money the government borrows (or steals via inflation) to 'rebuild' it (it needs rebuilding, does it? Talk about Broken Window fallacies) is only worth it if the amount the 'rebuilding' generates is more than it costs.
Read an economics textbook, you idiot... and not one written by a Keynesian.
Keynes was THOROUGHLY debunked, AT THE TIME by Hazlitt... here, you can download his evisceration here, for free:
http://mises.org/document/3655/
"Thoroughly debunked!" Oh, yeah, those guys, debunked, right. Sort of like Michael Rivero debunking the Jewish pogroms. Got it.
People who think Keynes' theories are bullshit == holocaust deniers.
Yup... Got it.
I lost track of how many Billions Obama lost building green energy transportation to get us to the green energy grid. It was lots and lots. Poof!
Man, there is no arguing in the Coliseum when the homie gladiator is up. All the hamsters want is blood and strune guts. It's even more so when it's a fave years-old replay on the Jumbotron. Popcorn and beer only in the hemiobol seats.
So give me something to root for on the away team other than prog speculation and concomitant arrogance. Otherwise, I'm all out of violin strings.
Oh, the New Deal!
That glaring example of success - it never worked on ending the Depression so FDR lastly welcomed the war
Yeah, I always ask FDR-worshippers - if the New Deal was such a success, why did the GREAT depression last until 1945?
The stupidity here plumbs new depths every time I check in...
Malek, I think -Pearl Harbor- might have played a role in the USA entering the War, don't you?
TORA TORA TORA! I dive bomb your post and sink it in the drink.
I do hope you can distinguish between "welcoming" and "initiating."
Krugman: "Money is not just little pieces of paper with pictures of dead presidents on them anymore. There is just so much more. We're not even quite sure where the boundary between money and non-money is, for example. [...]"
More-or-less a direct quote. Amazing! So, where, on the spectrum between money and non-money, is gold, par exemple?
Who cares? America is dead and everyone knows it. I do not care about money. The citizens themselves are the best indicator.
<<<<Ron Paul, American
<<<<Krugman, Alien
<<<< Lakecity idiot
>>>> Lakecity jean ee ous
Says law is the basis of economics, after scarcity: ""...products are paid for with products..." (1803, p.153)
It can be restated as, "One can only consume what one has produced, and nothing more."
It is like the second law of thermodynamics, but for economics, and like the 2nd. law, it cannot be violated.
Anyone that holds that printing money, a trade intermediary, is beneficial to the citizens of an economy, they are a charlatan and/or a grifter.
"If it violates Say's law, it cannot be so."
Don't curse Ron Paul with being POTUS... it is too late for anybody to stop now.
You don't want to be in the seat now.. better to let them accelerate the car into the brick wall at higher speed.
Krugman economics .... lets drive into that wall at super speed.....we will crash through and all will be OK.
Ron Paul....hey lets stop, get out, and dismantle that fucking wall you tools.
In one helluva a corner and on the ropes: Krugman whose theories have tested the nation to destruction, yet he persists; living proof that a man will refuse to acknowledge fact if his income relies on him ignoring fact.
In the open, standing his ground against all slings and arrows: Dr. Ron Paul, a man of principle and integrity who has been proven correct in the past, and will be again. By facts, defying the fanciful prognostications of career politicians and their academic apologists, all on the payroll of the international financiers, led by the Fed and the BIS.
The problem with Krugman and his ilk is that they do not live in the economy occupied by most people. Too many academics disgrace themselves by serving the vain agenda of career politicians or meglomania of rootless cosmopolitans.
None of that sort live in the principled world occupied by any honest man and woman; the creatives and wealth makers who make life worth living, and abor exploitation in any form.
Krugman: "The Great Depression was not caused by the Federal Reserve".
Thanks, Paul. Now I have to clean up the half-chewed pieces of ravioli you made me spew all over the table.
The fact is... Mr. Economics Nobel Prize Winner... that your beloved Federal Reserve contracted the money supply for years which lead to the deflation and suffering so needlessly caused. My God... how can such an evil "laureate" be allowed to vomit such lies with the full adoration and blessing of the ass-sucking media?!
Don't forget the money printing that made the 1920's so roaring.
"Even if we do have a recession, so what..."
This single quote encapsulates the sort of detached sociopathic thinking of elitists who have never spent a day of their lives outside in the real world. Let me bring it home for Krugman.
"Even if some crazed gunmen randomly ransack Ivy League Economics Departments and execute some faculty, so what..."
Rot in hell.
Dr Bonzo, I concur. Let the treatment begin.
'
'
'
Krugman -> filthy-leftist-liberal progressive-socialist-communist-moaist-stalinist-leninist-marxist-social-engineering-outcome equalizing-disingenuously self-interested-totalitarian-elitest-teacher-granola-eating-birkenstock-wearing-nanny statist-know-better'er type.
He reeks of it.
•?•
V-V
DC is now like the capital in those lame Hunger Games movies.
Some day, when people see Krugman on the breadline, hopefully they beat him to death. A "quantitative beating".