This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Bitcoin Now More Popular Than Obamacare

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Much has been said about Bitcoin: an alternative currency; a "honeypot" scheme by the central banks and Feds to capture excess cash, punish the rebellious and track abusers of money laundering laws; a revolution against fiat. Perhaps one other word may be used as well: "distraction"?

 

 

(h/t @Not_Jim_Cramer)

 


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:58 | Link to Comment slotmouth
slotmouth's picture

Healthcare.gov now accepting bitcoin!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:00 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

BITCOIN!!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:09 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Soon I hope my 0.25 oz Gold Eagle (bought w/ BTC) will arrive.  If that happens, and if our Chinese bearing supplier starts accepting BTC, then we are in a new world....

http://tinyurl.com/mb7no3q

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:11 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

When BTC starts being accepted by major industrial players it is game over for the Dollar.  Done like dinner.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:36 | Link to Comment gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

wouldn't go that far, all public spends through inflation need to keep going in some form... and wtf is obamacare?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:06 | Link to Comment Quisat_Sadarak
Quisat_Sadarak's picture

BitchCOIN!!!  Bitchezz!!!!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:31 | Link to Comment wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

 

 

If you like your bitcoin - you can keep your bitcoin. Period!

(The above Obama message is endorsed by: NSA, FBI, CIA, DHS, and now... JPM)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:21 | Link to Comment Midas
Midas's picture

You didn't mine that Bitcoin, you had help.  You used Al Gore's internet.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 04:09 | Link to Comment James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

Obamacare is desperate.

In my state they accept pop-bottles and aluminum coke cans.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:32 | Link to Comment covsire
covsire's picture

Say the mark of the beast is not only a tattoo or a microchip, but it also has some special information associated with it.  Say there was a currency like Bitcoin but controlled by a central authority, such as a chartered organization of the UN.  The organization controls these "worldcoins" and is the only entity allowed to see the entire block chain.  In fact, to process a transaction merchants establish an internet connection and present the following information to the CCA (Central Coin Authority):

1)  Buyer's public "address"

 2)  Seller's public "address"

3)  Date/Time of transaction

4)  Cost Details

The transaction is signed by the buyer's private address which is imprinted on his hand or forehead.  

The CCA would receive the transaction request and verify the seller exists, the buyer's signature is valid and confirms funds are available to perform the transaction.  The CCA wouldn't need to wait for another block to be solved, it could verify instantly whether or not the transaction is valid.  Buyers and Sellers would have a public key

How would you counterfit money?  You couldn't, it would be impossible.  

Could the authority print money?  Yes, it could decide that today a solved block is worth 10,000,000 world coins and tomorrow only 1.  A simple "block value ledger" would keep track of how much money each solved block would be worth.

Why bother with a block chain at all?  The ledger would be gauranteed to remain secure from tampering, especially if they had to distribute the CCA workload across the world, in fact the more CCA servers in the world the more secure their system would be.  

Imagine if this currency system was the only one that was legal in your country.  In the world.  Imagine if bartering with Gold/Silver/Plat was illegal?  Imagine if you sold a bar of gold and didn't have a ledger entry where you bought it it with "world coins"?  Is gold still a store of value at that point?

edit:  Say Obama  the world leader would only give you your own private key, so that you could engage in commerce, if you acknowledge him as god?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:03 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

Again, it would help to keep in mind that the Swiss are considering endorsing Bitcoin as an official "unit of account". I know this may be disheartening to those that hoped everything Bitcoin would just go away, but there it is.

Reference: http://www.coindesk.com/swiss-lawmakers-bitcoin-foreign-currency/

But I'm sure everyone will just go back to saying they can't see it, so its no big deal. Like usual. Then everyone else, who actually has money, will perk up and notice that there are sovereign nations making Bitcoin legal in their confines.

The Croatian Central Bank has effectively done this, recognizing that Bitcoin is a legit form of money, as well as the CEO of PayPal, who not only owns some, but is waiting for market depth to mature before they take the plunge.

Interesting times, indeed.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:46 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Again with the bitbugs' hyperbole.

There is a big difference between the Swiss recognizing bitcoin as a unit of account, and their endorsing of it (whatever that might mean or entail).

Every nation on earth recognizes every other nation's units of account --- that hardly implies that they therefore concurrently endorse all, or any, of them.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:33 | Link to Comment Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

Bitcoin doesn't give a flying fuck about government endorsement, only the people's acceptance.

It's called . . . (wait for it) . . . the free market. And if Bitcoin fails because people don't want it, that's one thing. If it failes because of government intervention, then that's quite another.

Game on. Let's see.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:22 | Link to Comment Bent Nail
Bent Nail's picture

I suspect people yearn for something akin to bitcoin. A medium of exchange outside the control of central bankers and artificial borders (gang territories). When I first came upon bitcoin, at less than $5 a coin, I was enthralled. Yet I did not act. It is a lesson learned. If I absolutely love a concept, I should take a chance. Oh, I love precious metal as well and have physical possession of a meager amount. However, I can not send physical metal around the world with a click of the mouse outside the purview of my government.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:14 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I feel no different about it from $5, to 0.05, to 5000, whatever it falls back down to, probably zero.
Currency to me has one purpose: in-person purchasing. I avoid online as much as possible.
It's the most dangerous place for currency to be.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:10 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

FuckOffAndDieTrollCoin

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:14 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Go find some Bitcoin-bashing conspiratard site, moron.

May I suggest ATS or GLP?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:51 | Link to Comment Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Fonestar, I will say I admire your determination and tenacity fighting this fight thread after thread, day after day. I do admire a man of convictions, even when the whole world is against you. Quite sexy in a way. But any good Warrier must know when the fight is done. People have drawn their sides and have made their choices. You have made good arguments and I have listened. I think you may have swayed some people to think about Bitcoin. However, now you are losing respect because what you avow has become singularly fanatical. Many of us are old enough to have had the experience of being caught up in a craze and have been burned ( I certainly have). We have learned caution after having exuberance destroy us. You still have that youthful impetuousness, innocence that makes you feel high as a kite. Enjoy it while it lasts because it is fleeting.

May I suggest you rest on your laurels and bide your time. When gold goes to zero and all the curmudgeons on ZH are moaning while they use their coins to prop up rickety patio furniture, you come back in your crowning glory and gleefully rub everyone's nose in shit.

Miffed;-)

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 03:54 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

 Thank-you for the consideration but this fight is far from done!  You assume that I am young because I am excited but rather I am filled with high cryptose bit syrup.  I developed theorems back in 2012 over what would happen when a floating, deflationary currency is released into the wild.  So far everything has happened exactly as I expected it to.  Why would I retreat now?  I feel emboldened by the power of Satoshi and his creation.  It has given its users a sense of dignity and personal empowerment. 

Fonestar fights on!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:18 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

So, basically, you're regretting your login name isn't Buzz Lightyear?
Buzz Litecoin? Bitz Lighty3ar?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:15 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

akak, I have to ask you, just what is your problem with bitcoin?  

If you are afraid that it will steal gold's thunder, don't be.  It is a substitute for the DOLLAR, not for gold.  Bitcoin is very good for transactions and avoiding government-imposed currency controls of all types.  Gold is good for storing wealth and perhaps local transactions.

They are perfect compliments.  I just don't understand the hostility if it isn't fear induced.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:20 | Link to Comment BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

I think some of us are not convinced that it was created for good intentions...

.

Good idea? yes/maybe

.

Good intentions? questionable

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:23 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

exacxtly.........its all about trust........about the only thing I trust nowadays are pre-1964 silver coins

satoshi needs to come out of hiding to give his invisible coins some cred

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:35 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Math does not need personalities and media attention to justify math.  Math is math. 

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:50 | Link to Comment Atlasshruggedme
Atlasshruggedme's picture

Satatoshi is a time traveler from Japan. He came back to try stopping the fall of the JPY and USD and to help humanity. Satatoshi is also head programer of a elite group of techies from 2171. Don't believe... just wait until 2171 and I will be proven correct. 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:07 | Link to Comment Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

Is this wanker day on ZH??   You and BLOTTO are on some weird shit.

BTW,  Tin foil is on sale at Wal Mart you mooks! 

Hurry before it's all gone!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:27 | Link to Comment ljag
ljag's picture

Really, banger,? All I could find is munimula wrap. Big dif

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:35 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Hey, save some of the tin foil for me!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:06 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Akak and blottoe both share the same issue that the majority of ZH readers share...

 

They are not computer coders and so can not audit Satoshis creation for themselves. This leaves them as skeptics/doubters.  And no matter how many times I scream the code is secure, love the satoshi,  they will continue their mistrust because it's impossible for them to experience for themselves the love that satoshi has for liberty and his beautiful creation which will break governments and cause liberty to rise.

 

Akak anyway believes the bible is divine. I respond with...   ya well I didn't see the miracle so I dont believe.

 

Akak can't see the miracle in bitcoin because he can't read code. Hes too focused on 666 to bother learning to read code.   Blotto may have a chance.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:07 | Link to Comment Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

And here I thought they were both just fucking weird.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:16 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

PD, you are correct in that I am not a techno-geek and cannot read computer code.  But that is irrelevant, as you cannot deny that the internet is fundamentally NOT, and will NEVER be, truly or perfectly anonymous, again, at least as far as our increasingly sociopathic and authoritarian governments are concerned.  I do not want to use bitcoins for the same reason that I eschew the use of credit and debit cards: because I am old-fashioned and desire the greatest measure of PRIVACY in my financial transactions that is possible to me in this increasingly privacy-spurning and privacy-destroying society and world.

As for my supposed belief in the divinity of the Bible, I will just say that you obviously have not read many of my past posts here on that point.  Suffice it to say that you would be incorrect.  I only used the meme of "the mark of the beast" as a convenient metaphor, nothing else.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:32 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

I apologize. Itried to cast you in a certain light, which is wrong. I was merely responding to todays posts of yours. I do not know you or your true convictions. You're anonymous to me!  :)

A discussion on internet anonymity is warranted here. However like most things in life, anonymity comes to those who bother with it. And most murikans anyway are too lazy to bother with internet security. But this doesnt mean the internet is flawed, insecure, or (opposite of anonymous) notorious.

 

Also what does it matter if the internet isn't anonymous once the parasitic government is gone.   It's not you I desire to remain private from,  its government. And I dont think you'll ever have the resources to break my online anonymity.  Only a cabal of liars and thieves with a printing press have both the funds, motivation, and desire to control in this fashion.

The internet isn't flawed. The idea of government is.

 

So if bitcoin will destroy governments,  why do we care if the internet isn't perfectly anonymous. No one will be holding a gun to my head in the bitcoin future, demanding to know my every thought and action.  That's only what government does.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:38 | Link to Comment malikai
malikai's picture

Honey badgers, Bitchez!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:19 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

what if the failure of bitcoin to be anonymous is part the reason it never can destroy a government?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:25 | Link to Comment BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Come on guys, lol, im the same every day - just edgier during the beginning of the week.

.

Yes, i am weird...but even more paranoid cause ive been paying attention.

.

Ill be better after my herb smoke when i get home...to take the edge off:)

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:33 | Link to Comment NIHILIST CIPHER
NIHILIST CIPHER's picture

akak           Bitcoin, litecoin whatever the name , a cryptocurrency is dangerous by it's very being. The ability of TPTB to use their power to enforce slavery upon the masses is magnified 1000x . Loss of privacy is only part of the dark side of this type of currency. If indeed you had no other means of currency with which to trade , you could be forced to denounce your beliefs or be forced to  forfeit a portion of your wealth for not towing the line. If cryptocurrency were the only means at our disposal right now, today, a nasty remark about dear leader could be a financial punishment.. Is the Book of Revelations relevant? 

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 17:33 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

The secure code which has exponentially increasing size requirements & time/energy cost requirements is not helping you.
The security isn't the problem, the proper operation is the problem.
Also the network itself isn't assisted by the code: it's still vulnerable, wires able to be snipped, server rooms able to be shut down.
And on top of that the fiat exchange servers are 100% vulnerable to the agencies of money-printing since fools as yourself insist it's wonderful that btc be convertible to dollars at any price "teh market" will b3@r (meaning the Fed can print).
Fool.
It's not the code, it's how you're using it that's breaking it.

I AM a programmer able to do RSA by hand, learned 17 programming languages (not all of which I remember clearly now but I can read & learn all over again in minutes).

Are you? Doubt it. Foneystar is not.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:42 | Link to Comment Saro
Saro's picture

"We already know who he is"

No, we don't.  There has been a lot of speculation about numerous people who could be Satoshi, but nobody knows.  If someone wants to tinfoil-hat it up about an illuminati conspiracy to force a NWO currency, that's perfectly fine, but we shouldn't confuse such speculation with facts.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:52 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I don't care if we ever know who Satoshi is or was.  It's not important in the least bit.  AFYI, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was INT or Ex-INT.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:58 | Link to Comment InspectorBird
InspectorBird's picture

Maybe Fonestar is really Hillary Clinton? That would explain a lot :)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:37 | Link to Comment TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

What difference, at this point, does it make?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:38 | Link to Comment malikai
malikai's picture

It doesnt. It just means a bunch of dufii are running out of poo to throw around.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:47 | Link to Comment css1971
css1971's picture

Yes, we pretty much do and with higher levels of confidence than most medical drugs achieve.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:45 | Link to Comment PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

He ain't talking!

My humble opinion, after reading this: https://likeinamirror.wordpress.com/2013/12/01/satoshi-nakamoto-is-proba...

is that Satoshi may more likely be Nick Szabo.(along with a dev collaborator)

Check out this piece on "bit gold" from 2005 on his blog site:  http://unenumerated.blogspot.nl/2005/12/bit-gold.html

 

 

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:40 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

I think some of us are not convinced that it was created for good intentions...

You can imagine bad intentions forever.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:49 | Link to Comment Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

I cashed out of half of my BTC last weekend. All of the funds arrived today. It will be a very, very Merry Christmas. And what I have left will make shopping for a new motorcycle next spring a lot more fun.

Bitcoin bitchez.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 17:14 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

you mean DOLLARS bitches because that's what you just said you're celebrating.
Not that you bought bazeelions of things using bitcoins but that you got DOLLARS, CASHED OUT of the bit-casino.
Someone who was pro-bitcoin for real would just be acquiring more and/or spending them directly.

shows you don't think btc is a real currency, only a speculation play (high risk at that)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:25 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Tmosley, my problem here is not nearly so much with bitcoin as it is with this shameless troll "Fonestar" who invariably inundates and/or diverts EVERY thread on ZH with his self-declared 'Religion of bitcoin' proselytizing.  I am sick of it, and of him.

But since you ask, my problem with, and skepticism of, bitcoin is based on one fundamental fact: NOTHING that involves the internet can ever be truly anonymous --- at least from those whom matter the most, i.e., government --- as cash (and gold) can be and is.

Call me paranoid if you will, but I see the Number of the Beast (or at least the real potential for it) every time I read the word "bitcoin".

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:34 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

This is not me but should you be surprised that many others have become radicalized Bitcoin users?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:48 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

"Radical Bitbug Extremists"?

LOL

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:40 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

OMG so funny. lol

 

BTW What room does the can't understand anything except gold cult have reserved this evening.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:48 | Link to Comment TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

fonestar, you just admitted to being "radicalized".  You've mentioned in the past that you're all-in on Bitcoin, pawned all your stuff to buy BTC, etc.  Whether that's actually true or not, I don't think this is a sane position.  Bitcoin has the potential to be many good things:  a free and open payment/transfer system, a store of value not subject to monetary inflation, even possibly the world's reserve currency.  But it really only has an advantage in the near term as a payment/transfer system.  Meanwhile, it is subject to abuse by governments, central banks, other banks, and speculators, each of which pose their own unique threats which may be capable of destroying Bitcoin along with all the value that Bitcoin holders (including myself) think we posess.  

I just think those risks are not acceptable for someone to go "all-in" on.

In particular, what do you think would happen if BitPay and similar services were to have their bank accounts suddenly closed?  All merchants would have to stop accepting BTC. What could anyone do with their BTC then besides trade it for fiat?  You can't even fondle a private key, it's just a number in a computer.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:01 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yeah, I get all that mature, reserved and balanced crap.  But I see Bitcoin as more of a crazy thing, so I'll do the crazy thing.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:30 | Link to Comment TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

Fair enough.   Good luck, man.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 21:57 | Link to Comment ManOfBliss
ManOfBliss's picture

Dumbest fucking answer of all time. LOL

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:30 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

If you think you are getting a free hall pass from me to shamelessly attack the greatest freedom-fighting in tool in the past five-hundred years guess again pal!  I don't really care what you people think anyway, if 99% of the world refuses to accept Bitcoin, Bitcoin is still going to the moon and fonestar is still laughing.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:13 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Hey fonestar.  I got a story that even akak can appreciate.

 

Its about this prophet named Job.  He tried to tell the truth but people were too stupid to listen to him.  They ridiculed him all day. They thought his wisdom thru understanding was actually idiocy. Well Job became a kabillionaire and had like 50 harems.

 

All those who thought he was ridiculous lived out their days watching Job play with his harem.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:35 | Link to Comment ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

You BTC-lovers shouldn't be giving away your age, jumping around like green monkeys every time someone mentions FunDaMental.

Time perspective, grasshoppers... BTC has been around for how long? And you explain it's hockey-schtick chart how...? We'll wait and see, hopefully we'll all be around in a couple of years and can evaluate this momentum-chasing mania in retrospect. If you're right - good for you and everybody else.

Until then, I'll stick to 1oz bitcoins with 99% purity.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:43 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

I dont care what the chart looks like in fact id prefer a nice steady climb.

 

As a libertarian who has loved gold for over a decade (im young) im just happy to see a new money, equivalent to gold, that can do what for now gold cant.

Fuck the charts. I love liiberty!

 

I'm stacking both, and waiting for the day when both are recognized absolutely as money. Im not a speculator. I'm a believer in human liberty and I pursue it sa best I can. BTC is helping me pursue it.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:54 | Link to Comment ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Roger that, you're too young to be cautious, just make sure you don't become a prisoner in your own cell.

A word of advice: A wise man learns from the errors of others, a stupid man is doomed to learn from his own...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:31 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@ThirdWorldDude

The problem with the long "run" that precious metals has, is that it is expected to continue. As much as this may be contrary to anyone's thought processes here, there could be situations that unfold that make a store of value seem less than what it was. We're in an age now that the rate of technological progress has been rather rapid.

There are plans to harvest asteroids, using technology we have now, and in doing so provide the foundation for exploration into deep space and perhaps beyond the solar system itself. This has come to fruition rather quickly. I wonder what the effect then will be when a nice-sized asteroid is pulled into a lagrange-parking-orbit that contains a large amount of precious metals?

It would certainly undermine the existing supplies, and with it being on the TOP of the gravity well, instead of IN it, also easier to deliver if necessary. Imagine that scenario, markets - if they still exist in the form they do now - going limit offer and staying there, perhaps even tracing out the very "bubble" being applied to Bitcoin.

Impossible? So was manned flight, until not long ago in the sense of human history. We've been flying around a lot less than we've been walking. Imagine the shock if someone had tried to make a method of value based on walked distances, and then, suddenly - all of that "wealth" disappears as more rapid forms of transit are invented.

One thing for sure though, everything has its time, and then the sun sets on it - never to be seen again.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:44 | Link to Comment Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

I've read some incredible bullshit around here before but this takes the cake. Harvesting asteroids?  

You sir, are a complete wingnut when it comes mining and gold.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:01 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

I am not a technophobe nor a kneejerk anti-technological "grandfather", as so many of the bitbugs here will imply, yet I have to call "bullshit" on all this glib talk of mining asteroids for their metals.  There are VAST technological hurdles to overcome before this ever becomes even possible, much less practical, in addition to the fundamental ramping-up in the use of energy --- on the scale of orders of magnitude higher than today --- which would be necessary in order to make such mining feasible, regardless of the specific technology involved.

These facile dreamers ignore the fact that we already have metal-bearing asteroids right now, right here on earth --- they are called "mountains".  Just because one can casually look at some random rock in space, hundreds of millions of miles away, and claim that "Rock X has Y kilograms of metal Z" means next to nothing.  Not only would that asteroid have to be moved into a near-earth orbit, or into earth orbit itself, in order to be mined, it would then have to be processed and refined, steps which are complicated and energy-intensive no matter where they are conducted.  THEN, the refined metals would have to be delivered to the earth's surface; and no, it is NOT just a matter of "letting them drop from orbit" --- not if one does not want to declare war on the inhabitants of the globe.  These refined metals would have to be taken down to the surface in a controlled manner, which would be just as energy-intensive, and as difficult and complicated, as launching payloads from the surface in the other direction is.

Yeah, sure, I think asteroid mining is possible, and perhaps even inevitable, when mankind has learned to harness cheap and simple fusion power, or has vast solar energy collectors throughout the solar system.  Let's just say I am not looking to see either development in my lifetime, or in the lifetime of anybody currently alive.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:40 | Link to Comment Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

That's what i was referring to akak, the cost.

Seeing that miners here on Earth can't really make any money with gold at $1200-1300, I wonder what asteroid mining "all in costs are"?

I hope you're laughing at my sarc, because that's what I'm doing.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:02 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Bay, my head hurts even trying to think about how much it would cost to mine asteroids and ship materials back to Earth.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:18 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Probably rather more than the $5 it costs to dig them from the ground.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:22 | Link to Comment mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

You assume it would cost a lot because you're accustomed to 'governments' doing space travel.

With 3D printing we are now a lot closer to self-reproducing machinery.  So we send relatively small capability out there, and it spends it first few years growing, powered by sunlight and using asteroidal materials to increase capacity.

Ship materials back to Earth -- if that's what you want to do, using sails.

This is the real tragedy of all the money being misspent by the beast who rule our world.  Trillions of dollars a year for -- well, for nothing.

For a hundred billion bucks, we could have the solar system.

 

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 17:10 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

it's the fuel, not the materials.
There isn't enough to feed Earth and space-mining at the same time.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:21 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

Bay of Pigs:

Be careful.  There is, as we speak, a company planning to capture a NEO asteroid for mining in earth orbit starting in 2016, just three years from now.  They will be targeting water and other raw materials that are very expensive to move into earth orbit, but it isn't too far of a stretch for them to bring back some gold even on the first mission.  Nevermind what happens when we open up the asteroid belt.

But of course, when that happens, there will be so much new material to buy that gold will STILL maintain its purchasing power.  People ten to forget that part.

And even if it didn't, that is a major step towards post-scarcity.  With practiaclly unlimited resources, who cares how much money you have?  Everything will be so cheap people will stop charging for goods, as is the case with information on the internet.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:26 | Link to Comment The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

There will be no post-scarcity for as long as there are central banks, and by extension governments.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:35 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

That may be, tmosley, but it is one thing to capture a small asteroid which is already an earth-grazer, and another thing to move an asteroid from the asteroid belt into earth orbit for refining.  Not impossible, of course, but I question the near or even middle-term feasibility of it.

Also, scraping ice from the surface of an asteroid is probably going to be a much simpler matter than refining the bulk of an asteroid for its metals.  Remember, most asteroids were never part of a larger parent body, and so are almost certainly not mineralogically differentiated as is the crust of the earth, meaning that concentrations of potential metallic ores on asteroids most likely do not exist, except for the very largest like Ceres, and even then such concentrations would most likely only exist deep within such bodies, as none of them would have experienced the plate tectonics or volcanism that exposes such concentrated metals to their surfaces.

Beyond all that, I have been hearing these stories of private enterprises moving into space "in three or four years" for over 20 years now.  Yes, it will almost certainly happen eventually, but something (or someone?) seems to keep moving the goalposts on them.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:46 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I like that idea.  My harem will be done in crushed red velvet.

Come to fonestar....

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:13 | Link to Comment TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

fonestar....a Big problem i see with BTC is the lack of education available to the public... Ive been to the bitcoin websites.. you literally need hours and a college crash course to figure the thing out... between the public keys private keys, offline cold storage wallets, offline unbuntu boot drives, key generators.. there is no one authority on the subject that explains in detail how to use it/ send money recieve money and Secure your wallet(s),... all you have is bits and pieces of info scattered all over the internet with no reliable trusted sources of info...it only takes one lazy transaction to potentially expose your private key that can blow up in your face.. how can you act like everyone is supposed to blindly invest and trust something that noone really understands?.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 15:26 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Remus is also glad to see you finally speak of yourself as he does - the arrogance is exquisite

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:32 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

yet you post on the unanonymous internet.....

 

has bible sales gone up since the evil bitcoin has spawned?

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:37 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

And your point is ... ?

I also appear in public where people can see me, and make telephone calls that the NSA can and does monitor and record.  You seem to assume that I do not take those facts into account in my activities --- if so, that would be a mistaken assumption.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 01:59 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you just rambled about needing anonymity and slamming bitcoin like a drunken ape

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

Does he?  It seems to me that he talks about bitcoin in bitcoin threads and responds to others who talk about bitcoin.  It seems to me that the real person at fault here is Tyler, as he is the one making all these clickbait threads about bitcoin, with almost no quality PM threads.  I would just assume fewer people knew about it so I would have more time to buy some more, but I can't resist boosting it as it has the potential to eliminate government from all financial transactions (see the bitcoinx project).

As to the mark of the beast, which is more like the prophesy?  The dollar, issued by the beast's butt boy Bernanke, or bitcoin, something that is decentralized and not really issued or controlled by anyone?  We are forced to transact in dollars.  All electronic trades are linked with out social security numbers.  You afraid of the beast?  You're already in his belly.  You were born there.  

Bitcoin wasn't meant to be anonymous, though it does take actual legwork to track and correlate things.  There are other crypto alternatives that are much more anonymous.  As it is, I like the transparency.  Makes it harder for the bankers to fuck with.  All you have to do is look for relationships between the people doing weird, uneconomical stuff.  ANYONE can do that, which is GREAT.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:14 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Only one comment.

God issues and controls math.   So god issues and controls bitcoin.

 

God loves us!!! Bitcoin is evidence of this!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 14:35 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

the skyfairie man, or whole group of them from Greek gods, Roman gods, etc., don't even exist. Never did. It's all delusion.

Math is fact. Religion is peyote.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:07 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@akak

No different than the precious metals crowd who angrily downvote anything that dares sully the name of their precious stacks. Every page on Zerohedge is Gold, Guns and Ammo, and yet that's just fine? No contrary points of view can be made? Seems like a rather close-minded environment if that is true.

As for internet anonymity being useless, I'd say that depends on the practitioner. It would be hard to say that governments are omnipotent, and honestly they're staffed with the same failure-prone human beings that markets and companies are. For instance, Snowden could've been nabbed if they had their super internet powers at full bore. And yet, they didn't... or couldn't? I'd argue that proper practices produces a fine cloak of anonymity.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:22 | Link to Comment BadDog
BadDog's picture

Gold for wealth storage and preservation, bitcoins for transactions.  The two should get married.

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 20:58 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

succinct & accurate.

A web of trusted people could easily use gold & silver backing for gpg-signed vouchers & that would have real backing on a real digital currency. You can dismiss each signer / issuer as you please, you're not obligated, and the issuance would be limited to the real backing since the trust in the signer would go down (to zero) if it wasn't the case and the entire market would expose it & require audits (physical audits, acid testing, drilling, etc.) just like Goldmoney.com does.

In fact James Turk could go do that right now and it would be a done deal. Goldgrams pgp-signed for digital transfer. Just like that.

 

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:02 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

how could any thinking person NOT have a problem with bitcoin?
IF bitcoin couldn't be purchased using fiat currency (which is infinitely available to the worst enemies, the central banks),
IF bitcoin couldn't be knocked down by taking out the grids for power, cell phones & internet,
IF bitcoin couldn't be subverted (as many things can be) from the majority of computer users on win-doze or compromised cell phones (exposed on youtube with roothacks & key stroke watchers many times),
then I suppose it wouldn't be so bad,
IF bitcoin in packets couldn't be sniffed & stopped at any/every router along the way from source to destination (re: currency controls),
and IF it was legal to pay taxes with it so you didn't HAVE to have dollars regardless
and it would be nice IF the majority of essential goods & services (say, food, rent, dentist, electricity) were payable in bitcoins,
IF all that was true then I'd have little reason to complain.
But NONE of that's true.
That's a problem. How can you be blind to this? It's obvious.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:17 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

@ my friend akak

Let's wait and see, old virtual pal.  fonestar is pushy, but this BTC thing may wind up being good...  Not all the returns are in.

I will be going on my own personal experiences here.  For good or bad.

If I can buy gold & bearings in a quiet way, and if the BTC ecosystem is robust ("big ifs" I know), then maybe we ARE in a whole new world.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:20 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

FWIW I'm most curious about businesses accepting BTC.  About BTC economy growth. I can't wait to hear how this turns out for you.

On one hand I'm excited your business will be more profitable by using BTC as the means of exchanging value.

On the other hand I'm scared for you because for now the govt can still buy bullets and food and your business has a central point of failure.  a door which henchman can kick can and then arrest you for being a terrorist.

 

Should that happen to you dochen I personally will build a monument to you which the whole world will see when they visit the Seneca Lake region of NY.

It will read

"dedicated to bearing dude, an interpid currency explorer who risked his livelihood so that all may be free"

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:43 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Very decent, + 1  !!

Our business, gracias a Dios, is in Peru!

Email the prints down to my in-laws there, maybe they would be kind enough to do the same?

Actually the Big Choice Mr and Mrs Bearing will have to make (at some point if things go way downhill) is whether to stay and fight here, or just wish you guys luck down from Peru.

***

If we stay, I do have 6000 bullets (hey, if I lived in Texas, I would have 10 times that).

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:02 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@akak

I see you're applying your conversational "value-add proposition" again.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:56 | Link to Comment Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Akak, he is getting to you. Time for a drink and let it go. All is still in play and the game is still quite young. Patience, dear grasshopper, patience ;-)

Miffed;-)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:12 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

You are correct again, Miffed, as I find you to invariably be.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:59 | Link to Comment Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Dear akak,

You are a fighter, as I am, as we both always will be. It is in our natures but this is a battle in a possibly long protracted war.We must not get burned out in skirmishes. I will always be there for support and will have your back.

My husband is über tech savvy in the industry for thirty years. He has rejected Bitcoin for numerous reasons. I defer to his expertise in this area as he does to mine. Do not feel frustrated. The games pieces in the chess board are aligned in our favor. Let the game play out. But yes I know, gnats buzzing in ears can be maddeningly irritating.

Miffed;-)

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:03 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

ObviousTroll bait is Obvious.
I think it's a way of controlling MillionFonerBonus_ from spreading the taint to unrelated threads. Just make up a random script-generated bitcoin article and he's too busy on that to do the others.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:55 | Link to Comment Nothing but the...
Nothing but the truth.'s picture

Except it remains on a precarious footing.  Only when Obummer publically states, "if you like your Bitcoin, you can keep your Bitcoin" can we start to believe it's for real and forever.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:05 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I actually think that Bitcoin is a far more dangerous creation than derivatives and the shadow banking system.  Shadow banking players can be bailed out behind the curtains and nobody knows how much the Fed is really spending and bailing out and perhaps never will.  The blockchain on the other hand is a matter of public record.

Fonestar shadow banks with Satoshi Nakamoto!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:11 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

If you paid your premium last year, Obamacare would almost be affordable.

Almost.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:26 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

We are paying 16% more next year (BCBS), we are having the 2nd lowest price increases of anyone we know.  Some frineds of ours have been cancelled altogether,

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:31 | Link to Comment Thisson
Thisson's picture

Our increase (overall) was 12%.  However, individual coverage used to be fully (100%) paid by our employer, and now we (employees) have been asked to pay 10%, so the employer is only paying 90%. 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:16 | Link to Comment ZH Snob
ZH Snob's picture

even fonestar is more popular than obamacare.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:27 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

I think that is what would be defined as "damning with faint praise".

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:34 | Link to Comment markovchainey
markovchainey's picture

My taint is more popular than Obamacare, and believe me that smell ain't "faint" :-)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:18 | Link to Comment RSloane
RSloane's picture

Big deal, my socks are more popular than Obamacare.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:44 | Link to Comment scattergun
scattergun's picture

A fart in an elavator is more popular than Obamacare.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:43 | Link to Comment scattergun
scattergun's picture

dup

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:42 | Link to Comment rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

Bitcoin now more popular than Obamacare? Uh, so are root canals, hemorrhoids, colonoscopies, compound fractures, compound colonoscopies, genital warts and necrophilia.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:58 | Link to Comment Dollar Bill Hiccup
Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

That's really not sayin much, is it?

Dr.s should start going to cash.

Would bring down costs.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:59 | Link to Comment Frozen IcQb
Frozen IcQb's picture

And The Beatles are more popular than JC.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:59 | Link to Comment wallstreetapost...
wallstreetaposteriori's picture

All that internet traffic is from fonestar shitting his pants as bitcoins crashed.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:05 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Hey dipshit, BTC is $1028 USD on MtGox right now.  Nice "crash" eh?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:20 | Link to Comment wallstreetapost...
wallstreetaposteriori's picture

Make sure to let everyone know how you feel when the next leg to 400 starts. Chart doesn't look to support your pie to the sky theory...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:21 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

If Bitcoin goes to $5000 I am buying.  If Bitcoin goes to $500 I am buying more.  I am buying Bitcoin.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:25 | Link to Comment InspectorBird
InspectorBird's picture

Yes, understood, whatever the price, you WILL transfer your wealth to those few at the top of the pyramid, nothing can stop you, we got that.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:42 | Link to Comment digi
digi's picture

Just to clarify here, all commodities in which a purchase raises the market price and there are previous holders of the same commodity, are all pyramid schemes?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:46 | Link to Comment Saro
Saro's picture

Yes, except for gold and silver, of course.  Because . . . uh . . . reasons.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:48 | Link to Comment InspectorBird
InspectorBird's picture

"Just to clarify here, all commodities in which a purchase raises the market price and there are previous holders of the same commodity, are all pyramid schemes?"

..said one to another in 1637 and bought one bulb for 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 01:18 | Link to Comment digi
digi's picture

You can use tulips to securely and privately transfer wealth across the globe without restrictions? You learn something new everyday.

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:09 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

no, because they're commodities which have intrinsic value.
Wheat, corn, gold, silver, zinc, etc., all have intrinsic chemical & atomic value.
Bitcoin doesn't have that which means acting like it's a commodity is the entry for a ponzi.
Selling to bag-holders at the peak prices is what completes it. At least with commodities they have intrinsic non-monetary use (value).
btc has no such properties.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:26 | Link to Comment mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Why?

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:09 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

good. There's a lot of sorry people who bought at the top looking for a bag-holder. I'm not one of them but you should help them out.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:21 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Resist the temptation to use profanity!  You will get more credibility.  Of course, you ARE right about BTC over $1000 (last I checked as well).

Courtesy counts, even when dealing with difficult other commenters.  Don't roll in the mud, stay clean!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:28 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

"Resist the temptation to use profanity!"

 

I am sick of going over the same crap, the same FUD over and over.  If they're going to pull nonsense and conspiracies out of their asses they better be prepared to defend it.  If they want to take pride in being a dummy, should I feel bad for addressing them as such?  I really don't care if these people ever buy BTC anyway....

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:33 | Link to Comment Thisson
Thisson's picture

It is not "FUD" to point out that bitcoin has flaws.  It does.  And even you cannot seriously contend that bitcoin is perfect.  You like it.  You've made your argument, and that's fine.  But there is a counterargument and people should be familiar with both the pros and cons before deciding if BTC is for them.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I would definitely say Bitcoin is not for most of the posters here!!  Actually, I would reccomend they burn their computers in a fire as they are tainted by the mark of the beast!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:49 | Link to Comment Ourrulersknowbest
Ourrulersknowbest's picture

Smug ...
That ALWAYS ends well doesn't it?

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:14 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

ironic considering you do less with your computer than I would, and know less about how they work than I do, and I know better than to ever touch bitcoin.
What Linux are you running?
I'm using a humble but simple ubuntu precise/12.04 with a dash of Mint Maya/13 as Mint is really only a few repositories & included programs on the install ISO.
Some conveniences like pre-testing by the Mint team but Ubuntu itself is fine without it.

Prior to this I had good results with Gentoo as well. Not so much with Debian. It worked, eventually, but it was quite a chore finding as many device driver files as possible prior to even beginning to be able to install, then patch everything, just to get the xserver up.

You think you're computer-savvy.

I bet you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:54 | Link to Comment Saro
Saro's picture

"It is not "FUD" to point out that bitcoin has flaws.  It does."

Absolutely. Bitcoin does have flaws and risks, and people should be aware of them.

Tellingly, however, most of the crap slung at Bitcoin on this site has nothing to with the actual flaws and risks of Bitcoin, and everything to do with one or more of the following:

* Ignorance of how the system works ("THEY R GUNNA CHANGE THE CODE TO PRINT MOAR COINZ!!!")
* Conspiracy theories pulled out of someone's ass ("IT WUZ MADE BY THE NSA TO DELIVER US UNTO THE BEAST!!")
* Disturbingly incorrect notions about economics ("MUH INTRINSIC VALUE!")
* Willfully-blind double standards in favor of precious metals ("BITCOINZ CAN BE STOLEN! BUY GOLD!").

If people want to talk about blockchain size, the probability of double spend attacks, and political uncertainty, I'm all for it, but so much of this is the same old FUD day in and day out.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:25 | Link to Comment dracos_ghost
dracos_ghost's picture

Except the counter to your statement is that when people want to have an honest discussion about BTC, the crypto-anarchists just spout everyone is a dipshit and retarded and "hey, look at me, I'm rich ,fuck you guys." Or "I don't have time to educate you morons, go read" and then proceed to misinform everyone reading this site. Fight club aside, "Satoshi is GOD" or "it's math retard" is friggin weak as an argument.

That being said, what are your opinions on the HardFork issues being contemplated by the BTC dev group. We forget that this is Version 1.0 of this idea, Version 2.0 is coming and it doesn't look like it's going to be backwards compatible. How do you quantify that risk at this point other than trying to navigate the pump/dump casino style behavior that's being shown now.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:17 | Link to Comment dracos_ghost
dracos_ghost's picture

Actually I was referring to this:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist

These are breaking changes to the protocol and blockchain - ie non-backward compatible. There is a lot of concern in the dev groups as to how the BTC v1.0 to BTC v2.0 conversion will be socialized.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:57 | Link to Comment Saro
Saro's picture

Fonestar and I have different ideas about the best way to talk about bitcoin, obviously.  I think he makes it harder for me, actually.

The interesting part about blockchain forks is that, by definition, anyone with coins in the first blockchain automatically has coins in the forked blockchain, too.  If Blockchain #2 crashes and burns, I still have my account on Blockchain #1.  No harm, no foul.  If Blockchain #2 is totally superior, making Blockchain #1 obsolete, well, I have the same coins there, so I don't mind.

So from that perspective, the risk is minimal.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:37 | Link to Comment css1971
css1971's picture

And if blockchains 1 and 2 continue running in parallel in different parts of the world?

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 01:51 | Link to Comment Saro
Saro's picture

Then I have twice as much money to spend!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:29 | Link to Comment Mike Hunt III
Mike Hunt III's picture

I've heard Tony Gallippi from Bitpay and others talk about seven transactions a second in bitcoin. Is this some kind of hard limit? Is this going to be a problem in the future? Could some well funded Government or Bitcoin competitor clog the system with transactionsto and from itself?
Alternatively couldn't they just buy a few billion dollars worth of mining equipment and gain 51 percent and change the code or destroy bitcoin outright?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:06 | Link to Comment Saro
Saro's picture

I think the main problem is block size.  The total size of the blockchain can be mitigated, but the protocol itself does not allow blocks to be greater than 1 MB in size.  Since each block contains transactions, this puts a hard limit on the number of transactions that can be included into any block.  If the volume of transactions significantly outpaces block generation, some transactions will take a long, long time to be validated.

Some things to consider:

1) If you want your transactions to get validated faster, pay a higher fee so miners will prioritize your transaction for inclusion.
2) There are always "off blockchain" transactions. You trust a third party to hold your coins and they keep a separate ledger of customer accounts that they can shuttle balances around in the database behind the scenes, only using the actual blockchain to settle accounts with other third parties or for withdrawals, much like a bank.  This introduces risk, obviously.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:28 | Link to Comment css1971
css1971's picture

Latency destroys the throughput of any system. i.e. slowness.

Lets say it takes 1 second to do an operation (latency of 1 second). How many operations can you do per hour? Well, 3600 ops/hour.

Say you need to do 10800 operations per hour. Then you have to run 3 operations in parallel at the same time to achieve that throughput, OR, you speed up your operations so they only take 1/3rd of a second instead. You reduce the latency. In the first case, running with higher latency but in parallel, you need 3 times the resources to maintain the desired throughput of 10800 operations per hour.  For the second case, you need to figure out what is causing the latency in the first place and remove whatever it is.

Well with Bitcoin, or anything, we are limited by the speed of light. In order for Bitcoin to be global and continue to function, people have to be able to distribute transactions to ALL Bitcoin nodes from all over the world and the absolute best case, it takes about 0.2 seconds for information to get to the other side of the world at the speed of light and get an acknowledgement back that it had been received. And this is  assuming a point to point connection. Bitcoin doesn't use point to point connections, it uses a flood fill algorithm, which bounces information back and forwards between nodes so it takes considerably longer. This means that all the Bitcoin nodes have to be able to handle all of the transactions which are "in flight" simultaneously because the blockchain needs to be distributed to all nodes for Bitcoin to function as a single world wide currency rather than several regional currencies.

As the numbers of transactions per second increases (more people using it), the smaller/less powerful nodes will be unable to keep up and will have to drop out of the Bitcoin network. More than this though, in order to handle the increasing transaction loads, the nodes remaining will have to be centralise to lower latency higher performance networks and with fewer connections between the longer latency links; trans atlantic for example.

The speed of light and the design of the Bitcoin protocol absolutely guarantees this progression to a centralised architecture.

Put simply, Bitcoin was designed to be centralised right from the start and yes there really is a throughput problem which will limit Bitcoin scalability sooner rather than later.

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:18 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

network majority for the "coins" themselves isn't the same as network majority for the VERSIONS of the code out there.
Having alternative versions of the code still leaves people to choose which one to run & to consider why.
The blockchain, however, is entirely different. It must be in full agreement for the network majority & in that moment excludes disagreeing copies.
Being open-source permits many variations of forks, patches & minor revisions which don't necessarily need to cause a problem with others.

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:19 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

"Disturbingly incorrect notions about economics ("MUH INTRINSIC VALUE!")"
What's disturbing is that on zerohedge you think intrinsic value is disturbing.
Intrinsic value is the single most important topic in the universe.
Period.
to dismiss it, to attack it, is to attack life itself.
What a Fail-troll you can be.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

Why do you do it, if you're sick of it?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:52 | Link to Comment silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

thats odd I thought "nonsense and conspiracies" is what is backing bitcoin?

You know pfonestare i got to say thank you for being the ZH punching bag lately.

I am really enjoying whatching you get the shit kicked out of yourself. real fight club self masacist.

good to see a tool get used and not just sit on a shelf somewhere. 

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:58 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Haha you dipshits can watch from the sidelines as fonestar rides this rocket into outer space.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:21 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

Can we hold you to that promise?

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:24 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

LOL, millionfonerbonus_ thinks he's an astronaught because he's riveted to an ICBM.
That's golden.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:39 | Link to Comment mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Then why do you keep coming here?

Thu, 12/12/2013 - 21:23 | Link to Comment MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

You're the nut.
you say "grid down" is a conspiracy yet grid-down is precisely what happened shortly after you wrote that in the Phillipines.
This can happen in many places for many reasons and no bitcoin can be used there to recover.
When money is MOST needed bitcoin isn't money there.
You were soundly defeated in the argument by mother nature, the forces of physics, and you can't admit it.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:34 | Link to Comment Ourrulersknowbest
Ourrulersknowbest's picture

Mr fonestar....
You likes bitcoin.that's good for you.
But the only people who constantly foist their opinion on others are either salesmen shilling their wares or evangelists who just know better than the rest of us.
Which are you?
cos this shit is getting fucking boring.
You can like what you like in this old world,but show a bit of quiet dignity man.
If you are right and bitcoin goes to the moon then good for you.i hope you won't be one of those smug fuckers that say I told you so over and over,cos those kids always grow up to be wankers with clipboards from the gov telling you how to live your life.
I hope it works out for you,but cool it on the face rubbing please.
Peace.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:49 | Link to Comment Jugdish787
Jugdish787's picture

I think fonestar is just having a little fun with some of you.  I love these bitcoin threads and have been reading them for months.  His original comments were more sincere, now more for shock value. 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:54 | Link to Comment silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

naw, he was always a douche

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!