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Chase-ing Bitcoin: Is JPM Preparing To Unveil Its Own Electronic Currency?

Tyler Durden's picture





 

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, copy 'em, and then beat 'em. While everyone's attention has been glued to Bitcoin (and its various smaller and less viable for now alternative digital currencies), JPMorgan has submitted a patent which appears to set the scene for a competing centralized network to Bitcoin. As LetsTalkBitcoin noted first, the "Method and system for processing internet payments using the electronic funds transfer network," states that Chase's technology is a "new paradigm." Moreover that it permits the creation of "virtual cash" (also referred to as "web cash") with a "real-time digital exchange of value."

Via eCreditDaily,

Imagine paying for some product in a transaction directly with the seller that doesn’t include a costly third-party fee or the revelation of a personal account number — the current components that comprise credit card and debit card purchases. Imagine this system with a “real-time digital exchange of value.” And imagine that you can archive all the transactions in a personal digital wallet, with its own “Internet Pay Anyone (IPA)” account and inherent safeguards built-in, something that you could call “Virtual Private Lockbox (VPL),” according to JPMorgan’s patent.

 

If this “web cash” system — as JPMorgan Chase calls it — seems familiar, it should. It smacks of the peer-to-peer transactions of bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies that increasingly are making the world’s biggest banks uneasy about the future of e-commerce.

 

The patent, first revealed by LetsTalkBitcoin.com, is a fascinating look into JPMorgan’s veiled outlook on the evolving but growing bitcoin universe, and other more widely-accepted payment systems.

 

JPMorgan’s proposed system offers another eerily familiar component, which seemingly mimics “blockchain,” a publicly available, permanent ledger of bitcoin transactions.

 

...

 

Without naming the virtual currency or any competing payments system by name, the bank takes a swipe at the crytocurrency model.

 

“None of the emerging efforts to date have gotten more than a toehold in the market place and momentum continues to build in favor of credit cards,” according to Chase’s patent application published by The United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO). It was filed August 5th, 2013.

 

...

 

JPMorgan Chase sees “a new marketplace” emerging for “low dollar, high volume, real-time payments with payment surety for both consumers and producers.”

 

As LetsTalkBitcoin.com points out, “Bitcoin has also been ballyhooed for it use with micro-payments and payments under ten dollars due to its zero to negligible fee structure.”

 

JPMorgan Chase: “The present invention further enables small dollar financial transactions, allows for the creation of ‘web cash’ as well as provides facilities for customer service and record-keeping.”

While naming protocols for these vitual currencies is uncertain, we can't help but think "Dimons" would be appropriate as the web cash becomes increasingly more trusted.

 

LetsTalkBitcoin discusses how JPMorgan's proposed system works:

Under The Hood: Internet Pay Anyone

 

“…The structural components to the system of the present invention include:

 

    a Payment Portal Processor; a digital Wallet;
    an Internet Pay Anyone (IPA) Account;
    a Virtual Private Lockbox (VPL);
    an Account Reporter;
    the existing EFT networks;
    and a cash card.

 

“…The Payment Portal Processor (PPP) is a software application that augments any Internet browser with e-commerce capability. The PPP software sits in front of and provides a secure portal for accessing (finking to) the user’s. Demand Deposit Accounts (DDA) and IPA accounts. The PPP enables the user to push electronic credits from its DDA and IPA accounts to any other accounts through the EFT network…”

 

“…The {technology} …includes freely publishing the payment address and making it available to users of an internet portal or search engine…”

 

“…Currently, all Internet transactions use “pull” technology in which a merchant must receive the consumer’s account number (and in some cases PIN number) in order to complete a payment. The payment methods of the present invention conversely use “push” technology in which users (consumers or businesses) push an EFT credit from their IPA or DDA accounts to a merchant’s account, without having to provide their own sensitive account information…” 

 

A New Paradigm

 

“…The present invention represents a new paradigm for effectuating electronic payments that leverages existing platforms, conventional payment infrastructures and currently available web-based technology to enable e-commerce in both the virtual and physical marketplace. The concept provides a safe, sound, and secure method that allows users (consumers) to shop on the Internet, pay bills, and pay anyone virtually anywhere, all without the consumer having to share account number information with the payee. Merchants receive immediate payment confirmation through the Electronic Funds Transfer (EFT) network so they can ship their product with confidence that the payment has already been received. The present invention further enables small dollar financial transactions, allows for the creation of “web cash” as well as provides facilities for customer service and record-keeping…”

and the implications:

I view this technology and patent application as an overwhelming good thing.  Bitcoin is driving Innovation.  It has been said that credit cards and the legacy banking system in use today was never meant for use over the internet.  Chase’s updated Internet Pay Anyone technology appears to come head to head with Bitcoin.

 

...

 

While it remains to be seen if this technology is a “Bitcoin Killer,” other players such as eBay/PayPal (which have been riding under Bitcoin’s coattails through marketing gimmicks) ought to pay close attention to this emerging technology.  If Bitcoin does get a “toehold” in the marketplace, we just might see this technology activated.  The Chase is on.

Finally, the patent application itself (source USPTO):

 


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Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:45 | Link to Comment 1stepcloser
1stepcloser's picture

and its gone!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:49 | Link to Comment Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

Get JPM's new Dimon embossed "ShitCoin"™

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:51 | Link to Comment Dear Infinity
Dear Infinity's picture

It's like that bad Star Wars movie with all of the clones, and Jaimie is Jar Jar Bynx. 

Meanwhile silver is above $20 so excuse me while I kiss the sky.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:51 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

JPMCoin!  That's great!

I hope they have a Twatter release party too!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:55 | Link to Comment smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

getting old fone, 4 post before yours...come on man get in the game...what kinda coiner are you...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:58 | Link to Comment outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture

So all you Bitcoin haters take note. You have 3 choices at this point

1)      Ignore reality and deal with the consequences

2)      Embrace cryptocurrency

3)      Use the banking industries digital representation of fiat.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:58 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Hey Jamie - bring it on, motherfucker!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:00 | Link to Comment Balvan
Balvan's picture

50 years from now, we will have Cryptman Sachs, JP Cryptman, Federal Cryptoreserve ...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:01 | Link to Comment pods
pods's picture

Goldman Sachs is coming out with the Squid Quid.

pods

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:07 | Link to Comment Mudduckk
Mudduckk's picture

Mee Likey the Squid. Mmmmmmm. ROLF

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:09 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Why don't we just keep it simple and go back to real gold in real money? Otherwise we're just going to end up with a billion different cryptocurrencies and none of them worth a shite.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:12 | Link to Comment Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

MuppetCoin?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:17 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Bye bye fucking Bitcoin. You know how this ends now, you have two cryptocurrencies running side by side, one controlled by the banks, the other 'open sourced'. The banks print money and buy bitcoin, then they sell it, then they buy it back for less, then they ramp and sell it, then the buy it back for less ad infinitum. Bitcoin becomes so volatuile no one can use it and the banks currency stays rock steady.

The only waty bitcoin can survive is when the banks can't print money i.e. when we have gold in money, in which case what is the fucking point in Bitcoin?

Game over boys, read 'em and weep.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:18 | Link to Comment Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Or they buy and never sell - eliminating the competition?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:24 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

No they buy and sell for more and then buy back for less until they have them all, and only those that ramped and got out early ever made any money.

There will be crypto currency wars between banks with each trying to destabilise each others currency with no one in any position to stabilise bitcoin or any other nonExistentShiteCoin.

Dead man walking...

Do yourself a favour and buy some gold.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:24 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

bankers created bitcoin... made it appear independent to give it credibility. open the sheeple to the concept of digital fiat. once this task is complete, bitcoin will be killed off, and the NWO digital fiat will be borne.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:31 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

The bankers definitely did not create Bitcoin.  Sorry John, I liked your posts on here when I first signed up years ago but to believe they would voluntarily end their monopoly on money and credit creation is dumb.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:39 | Link to Comment outofideas
outofideas's picture

Prove it.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:47 | Link to Comment Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

 

Sean Caulfield @Seanismoney

The key function of "JPMCoin" is that when you buy one, your wallet disappears.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:17 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

http://evoorhees.blogspot.com/2012/04/bitcoin-libertarian-introduction.html

 

Required reading for any xxxCoin holder.

 

Why is Bitcoin valuable? This is perhaps the most important topic to address, as nothing else matters if Bitcoin has no value. What makes Bitcoin worth anything? Isn't it just "fake"? Isn't it just a made-up pretend virtual currency? Many say, "I can't hold it, I can't see it, and thus it's artificial and not worth my time." Let's challenge this understandable initial reaction. Let's demonstrate why Bitcoin is valuable, and very much worth one's time. Financial privacy has long been symbolized by the notorious "Swiss bank account." Yet, anyone with a Swiss bank account has to trust that bank, and as we've seen in the last couple years, "bank privacy" even in Switzerland is a myth - banks there have been bending over for the US government and divulging customer information. So imagine having a private, numbered Swiss bank account, but without having to bother with the Swiss bank itself. That is Bitcoin. Instead of placing your trust in a regulated bank governed by fallible humans, Bitcoin enables you to place your trust in an unregulated cryptographic environment governed by infallible mathematics. 2+2 will always equal 4, no matter how many guns the government points at the equation.

Bitcoin is thus the only currency and money system in the world which has no counter-party risk to hold and to transfer. This is absolutely revolutionary and you should read the preceding sentence again. Gold advocates will point out that physical gold bullion has no counter-party risk, but that is only true for storage in your own home. Store it in a vault or bank and you have counter-party risk. And sending gold? You have to trust all sorts of people if you wish to transfer your gold somewhere else or spend it across distance.

Bitcoin means complete ownership of money both in storage and transfer. Nobody can prevent you from having it. Nobody can prevent you from spending it. Even if one's home is broken into, or even if the government issues a "confiscation order" (as they did with gold in 1933), one's Bitcoins are perfectly safe. Try fleeing a country with $1,000,000 in bullion without the government knowing about it. Easier said than done. With Bitcoin, it's almost easier done than said - you could put $1,000,000 of Bitcoin on a USB drive, or even write the private key on a piece of paper, or just email the wallet file to yourself to be retrieved outside the country. Starting to see the value? Never in the history of the world has an individual had this ability. It is unprecedented. No really, WHY is Bitcoin valuable??? At this point, skeptics should say, "okay fine, you can store and spend Bitcoins without interference, but what gives them initial value? Why do they have a price?" It's a very good question, and even expert economists have struggled with the answer. But really, the answer is simple. Bitcoins have value because A) they are useful and B) they are scarce. Combine those two attributes in any asset and you will discover it has a price. The moment the first Bitcoin was traded to someone in exchange for something else, an exchange rate (market price) was established. Subsequent exchangers agreed or disagreed with that rate, and made further trades accordingly. Bitcoin thus spontaneously developed a price, as do all things in an open market if they are sufficiently useful and sufficiently scarce. Let's look at value a little further, because it's a contentious issue with Bitcoin. There are many (including Paul Krugman) who believe Bitcoin isn't worth anything and is no more than a speculative bubble fad. I wouldn't expect Krugman to "get it," but wiser/real economists need only observe metals to start understanding why Bitcoins have value. After all, any strong advocate of gold or silver as money should hopefully understand why these metals should be money. The answer is that these metals tend to be chosen in an open marketplace as money, because their specific properties make them useful as a means of exchange. It is the properties of gold and silverunique to these metalswhich make them excellent money. They are scarce, fungible, uniform, transportable, have a high value-to-weight ratio, are easily identifiable, are highly durable, and their supplies are relatively steady and predictable. Contrast other goods like chickens, or seashells, or sand, and you discover that none of them are as good on the above attributes as precious metals. Chickens can't well be cut in half or recombined, seashells are not uniform, and sand is too plentiful to be used as money. Why not other metals... why don't we use iron as money? It's not scarce enough - you'd need carts of it at the store to go shopping. As any Austrian economist can tell you, money is merely that commodity in an open market which best satisfies the properties necessary for useful exchange. Gold and silver take the cake every time a violent government doesn't get in the way... or at least, this is true historically. But, this doesn't mean that gold and silver are "perfect, infallible money." Indeed, there are practical problems. One can't easily divide and combine silver coins to make change. One can't easily send large values of gold across distance without hiring security and waiting for transport. One must pay storage fees, or risk theft at home. And, while difficult, it is possible to make fake gold and silver ingots and pass them off in trade as real. So then it follows that if gold and silver are not perfect money (though admittedly the best we've had), perhaps mankind could discover or invent something that was even better. This is the Bitcoin experiment - the question of whether Bitcoin, with its specific attributes, is an even better form of money than what the marketplace currently enjoys (or in the case of state fiat, is forced to use). If the Austrians are right, and a marketplace tends to chose the medium of exchange which best works as money, and Bitcoin's specific attributes make it excellent money, then perhaps the marketplace will, over time, increasingly use it for such. The answer so far, is yes. Bitcoin is finding more and more niches for early adoption, which further supports its market price, providing confidence to holders that it will retain value, and this further lends Bitcoin to be used for still more purposes. It's an organic and messy process, full of trial and error, potholes, brilliant innovations and terrible failures. But that's what an open marketplace is, no? Every day a more resilient economy is being built, and not at the point of a gun, but voluntarily - not by decree of Bernanke, but by spontaneous, self-interested private order. Many have made the argument that "nothing backs Bitcoin." And this is true. Bitcoin cannot be redeemed for any fixed value, nor is it tied to any existing currency or commodity. But, neither is gold. Gold is not backed by anything - it is valuable because it's useful and scarce. Cars are not backed by anything, they are merely useful as cars and thus have value. Food is not backed, nor are computers. All these goods have value in proportion to their usefulness and scarcity, and one merely needs to see the usefulness of Bitcoin to understand why, without backing from any government nor corporation, without being tied to any fiat currency or existing commodity, it commands a price on the market and rightly so. Bitcoin vs. The State Now we get to the more fun part, which is especially relevant to any libertarian discussion of Bitcoin. This is the manner by which Bitcoin supersedes government control. "Okay," people say, "so Bitcoin is new and the government doesn't regulate it yet, but they will!" Unfortunately for the government, they cannot. No person nor group of people can defy the laws of mathematics upon which Bitcoin is built. But first, let's look at the ways the government could interfere with the Bitcoin system..........   continue reading at link provided above. PS. Downvote if you want to attempt man love with bernanke.
Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:22 | Link to Comment giggler321
giggler321's picture

Anyone read all of that?  What'd he say, 1 sentance max?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:26 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

JPM will surely be IPOing their new house branded digital currency real soon.  It will be priced at $1,000/share, umm...coin.

This is the one IPO they will let Granny in on.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:38 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Agreed.  Lets keep shit dumbed down around here so we stay enslaved.   +1

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:31 | Link to Comment Mad Mohel
Mad Mohel's picture

Dumb is stupid bastards throwing up a wall of shit without any paragraphs. You fuckin cretins can't even write properly, and you want people to buy into your bullshit e-money?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:35 | Link to Comment Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

ThankYou For Posting That.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:52 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

just burn these dumb pig leftovers from when we pumped gold & silver here...

they don't understand that it doesn't matter if they have 1oz or 100oz if their fantasy comes true..  if/when that time comes, you will have to sell as much gold during the ramp up before it all goes pop and no one will care about wealth and only hunger.

 

in other words, when shit is flying, anyone who had piles of worthless money to buy your gold would be buying the real shit you need to survive that you are trying to get money for by selling your gold.

 

If you really think stores will be taking gold, you have to imagine that 99% of people won't have gold but will know how to loot..  so those stores would be empty anyway..

 

game theory boys.... game theory.   Just keep a few coins to get out of dodge if you have to. 

 

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:27 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Prisoners_dilemna

Nice contribution!  + 1

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:43 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

You linked to my account page. Any idea why my comments prior to October 2013 aren't listed on my account page?   Sometime I want to go back and review a discussion or find a link that I commented on....    but again, my account page only gives the most recent 50 comments or so.

 

Are older comments archived like the articles?

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:53 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Actually all I did was just "copy & paste" your name from the blue bar where your moniker is to my reply to you.  I do not know how to answer your questions.  Not a tekkie.

I liked your reply a lot though!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:04 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Well thanks. In my personal life I'm seeing that even the people who are interested in BTC, often don't want to bother informing themselves. So in order to get people to follow the link which I've posted 6 or 7 times now, I figured I'd give a loooooooooong quote. 

 

Sorry for the length and poor editting. I'm glad you enjoyed it.   I enjoy it too. Its gives me a liberty boner everytime I read it.

 

I will post it again in the future,  just to make sure  all the new zero hedge readers who are showing up en masse daily get exposed to it as well.  So ahead of time to all my ZH co-conspirators......    I hope it gives you a liberty boner as well.  No apologies though for repeating myself from now until the Fed crumbles and Gold and BTC rule the world side by side.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:39 | Link to Comment Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

:-)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:13 | Link to Comment tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

That's the GoldmanCoin and it's not a wallet, it's a laptop and it doesn't disappear... It gets found in a NYC garbage room with a fully functional email account that the finder can log into.

My guess is Lucas van Praag and Bart Chilton are toasting umbrella drinks poolside about now.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:33 | Link to Comment centerline
centerline's picture

I do believe you are right john.  One way or another.  Invented outright or hijacked along the way.  Digital fiat is the next logical step here.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:40 | Link to Comment remain calm
remain calm's picture

This makes perfect sense. After you sold all of your gold that was not yours, time to time to make a new currency to sell to people to buy back the gold you once held.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:05 | Link to Comment BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture
'Satoshi Nakamoto'

.

= (anagram)

.

'A hook to Satanism'

 

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:34 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

'BLOTTO'

.

=(anagram)

.

'To Blot'

'Lob Tot'

'Bolt To'

 

Seriously though,  nice investigative work.  Kudos!

Although satoshi nakamoto also comes out as 'Hook as to stamina'

and

Hooks To Tasmania

and

Shook a anatomist

and

oak ash into atoms

and

oak is ottoman

and

ask smooth antonia

and

taoism ash not oalk

and

manias took host

and

ok that asians moon

and

oasis man took hat

and

homo attains oaks

and

samoan has kit too

and

ask homona taoist

and

monk shat to asia

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:43 | Link to Comment Wen_Dat
Wen_Dat's picture

There must be an app for that 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:50 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Has to be........

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:02 | Link to Comment BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Yes PD - its all relative i guess...

.

Clint Eastwood = Old Action West

Schoolmaster = The classroom

A telescope = To see place

The Morse Code = Here Come Dots

Christmas tree = Search, Set, Trim

Statue of Liberty = Built to Stay Free

Slot machines = cash lost in'em

.

The Meaning of Life = The fine game of nil

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:06 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Wow,

You are much better at the anagram game than I am.  :)

 

again kudos

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:38 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

nice work. shocked I tell you. shocked. satanic bankers? who could ever dream such a thing! gasp.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:40 | Link to Comment my_nym
my_nym's picture

once this task is complete, bitcoin will be killed off, and the NWO digital fiat will be borne.

History shows that sheeple can already be led like lambs to the slaughter based on "NWO" rituals like 911 or sheared at will by Talmudic bankers above the Right/Left paradigm that cloak themselves in the smoke of WWII and the sacrifice/holocaust of the sacred six million that laying the foundation of the Pentagon on 9/11/1941 stopped, etc. (Who says that people have progressed beyond rituals, human sacrifice and the "scripts" of Scriptures?)  

But there is a growing amount of evidence that the decentralized nature of the internet is a threat to them and any others seeking to centralize power too.  At least for now.  Besides, there's not much sense in failing to take advantage of the internet for now in order to try to invest in apocalyptic events and increasingly unlikely "There might be no electricity." scenarios instead.  If you find yourself investing heavily in scenarios in which there is no electricity or no internet then it's probably time to take a deeper look at things.  Critics of Bitcoin probably need to make their minds up about that... either there is no electricity/internet or there is, so that everyone can be tracked and incorporated in the New World Order Inc. even more than they already have been.  Most currency is already digital.  I'm not sure how the form of encryption or the structure of the network it exists on magically makes it NWO or not NWO.  Regardless, most people are already like sheeple anyway... so you really wouldn't need some bit conspiracy to create Bitcoin in order to get them used to the concept of digital currencies similar to the digital forms of currency that have already been incorporated in their lives.            

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:57 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Lay off the conspiracy stuff.  There is no reason whatsoever why Bitcoin users would suddenly say in ten years, "gee I really liked this decentralized currency with no fees that can't be controlled.  But you know what?  I think I need to change to using a centralized, banker controlled currency."

That's stupid and there is not one situation where that would come to pass.  Most of you guys seem to have trouble with this stuff because you have no clue or exposure to hacker culture or p2p networking.  If you did you would easily see how dumb these ideas sound.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:31 | Link to Comment funthea
funthea's picture

Actually, that is what has been happening now, everyone buying and holding. Thus the ramp ups in price. Speculative bubble. IF everyone would just start spending it instead of holding it, it wouldn't be so volitile.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:17 | Link to Comment Mudduckk
Mudduckk's picture

Yay. Me like. My very own private debt jubilee. Ramp it. I got a price in mind where I swap BTC for Muppet Coin. The sooner the better.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:21 | Link to Comment itchy166
itchy166's picture

They are afraid of it, or why bother? 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:21 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Bye bye fucking Bitcoin.

LOL, another day, another reason for you to dream of Bitcoin's destruction.

Aren't you getting tired of this?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:24 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Dream on, you never know you might make something from it, provided there's still someone to sell to when you need to.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:59 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

same with gold...  the scenarios in your head are ficticious

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:21 | Link to Comment Notveryamused
Notveryamused's picture

Gold is a central bankers best friend! It's the basis of their whole dirty scam.  

Imagine we were on your proposed full gold smoney system again now. 

As soon as you/business has a significant excess or you want to do long distance transactions/payments/trading then you will need to trust a bank/organisation with your gold. As people are greedy, these banks/organisations/governments ALWAYS issue more notes/digital IOU's than there is gold to back it up. When they get caught they just revalue & continue as before... Until they get caught again, at which point they switch to pure fiat & steal as much wealth from the public as possible, then just before the fiat system collapses they buy/confiscate as much gold as they can, switch to a gold currency and profit, leaving Joe Public holding fiat and then whole putrid gold cycle repeats itself.

Bitcoin is the first decentralized, limited supply money with a publicly verifiable accounting system.

For the first time in human history you can save/trade/transfer significant value without having to trust that a person/bank/organisation/government is not issuing/spending/promising more money than they should.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:45 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

First of many, that's your problem right there.

There is nothing that you can create that can't be recreated. Nothing. That's all they're doing, recreating bitcoin, just like fiat.

But you can't create gold can you?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:09 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

It's actually much cheeper to make gold using high speed atomic collisions inside CERN than it is to make BTC using computer power.

It is possible to "make" both, it's just cost prohibitive.  More so in the case of BTC than gold.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:19 | Link to Comment icanhasbailout
icanhasbailout's picture

even better, they're going to make it an acceptable alternative for payment of taxes at a fixed minimum (but not maximum) exchange rate

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:29 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1 for a cynical but likely true possibility

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:21 | Link to Comment Debt-Is-Not-Money
Debt-Is-Not-Money's picture

"The only waty bitcoin can survive is when the banks can't print money..."

Not necessarily:

http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2013/12/bitcoins-fully-compliant-currenc...

"Which is why bitcoin—far from being a threat—might just prove to be the fully-compliant currency the U.S. government can come to love. A currency that will let it have unfettered access to each and every financial transaction you carry out."

http://gonzalolira.blogspot.com/2013/12/bitcoins-fully-compliant-currenc...

The ultimate in a "cashless society"!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 03:43 | Link to Comment TMLutas
TMLutas's picture

Manipulate all you like, the programmers will just make more. And when you've bought up all the BTC there is and then the LTC and then the namecoins, and then... at what point does it become clear that you can't ever corner the market this way? 

I'm not saying your wrong, that they won't try this strategy. I'm just saying it won't work without a legal bar to introducing new cryptocurrencies that present the banks with the exact same problem. 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:15 | Link to Comment Mudduckk
Mudduckk's picture

+1 Equally Good. ROLF

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:18 | Link to Comment Confused
Confused's picture

This is in preperation in case crypto currencies really do become common place. Nothing more. And, if they do, Chase will be there to be sure it is all consolidated into one "brand." One which they control, not much different then now. 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:35 | Link to Comment The Heart
The Heart's picture

"This is in preperation in case crypto currencies really do become common place. Nothing more."

Ding...ding...ding!

We have a winner folks!

And it was born...the beast system whose number was 666 and no man would do business without the mark.

You can now say, you remember when it was born.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:55 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

You Dolt!

Obamacare is the beast with 666 registered users.

Don't pay the beast,  don't do any business.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:41 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

I'd love to go to a gold standard.  But guess what?  Governments don't like being restrained.  Cryptocurrencies are the next best thing, ARGUABLY a better thing for certain types of transactions.

Also, we had "a billion" different privately issued currencies during the free banking period, and the vast majority were as good as gold.  How soon people forget.

Those who fail to learn from history and all that.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:32 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

And I would much rather trust a decentralized system like BTC much more than JamieCoin.  If my gold coin comes as I expect, I will buy another with BTC.  Then maybe a gift card...

***

Slightly disagree re gold standard.  Let ALL the currencies compete!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:53 | Link to Comment Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

How decentralized is it though?  Don't the top 100 wallet addresses have some ridiculous portion of all total Bitcoins (like in excess of 40%)?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:19 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

We're using different definitions of decentralization I think.

In my understanding/definition,   decentralization refers to the fact that their is no issuing authority. This means no one entity controls its rate of issuance. It also means there is no central point of failure.

 

Youre suggesting that because some people hold more money than others, that the money isn't decentralized.  This sounds like socialism and poor word definition to me.  ie.   lets make sure everyone has equal amounts of coins, to be fair. Our centralized authority will handle this.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:24 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

top 100 wallets hold 20%, top 500 wallets hold 40%.  To be fair, we should compare these figures with the top holders of Physical Gold also. In gold you will find higher concentrations, what does that imply?  Fawning support for the Rothschilds and Central Bankers?  If you can be patient enough to wait for it, CommieCoin will be coming out next year...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:48 | Link to Comment granolageek
granolageek's picture

And a pile of sovereigns and double eagles does internet commerce just how? Oh yeah, by paying the banksters through the nose. Fail.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:20 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

also

"Why don't we see this with gold today? Because gold has no good payment system built into it - physical bullion is not efficient for daily trade, and digital vaults backed by gold have all come under fire from government AML concerns, as we've seen the transfer systems of companies like GoldMoney be pressured into shutting down (last year, GoldMoney discontinued it's account-to-account transfers).    "

 

http://evoorhees.blogspot.com/2012/04/bitcoin-libertarian-introduction.h...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:22 | Link to Comment TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

"Why don't we just keep it simple and go back to real gold in real money?"

And how do you propose that I transfer the gold to a merchant on the other side of the country/world when I want to buy the latest gadget?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:06 | Link to Comment foodisgood
foodisgood's picture

Dude-
I really need help with making this new wallet real
http://youtu.be/r5_hFHHJhd4

Let's make this happen before THEY do.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:24 | Link to Comment Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

That's the most genius mining system I ever sawed.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:08 | Link to Comment PT
PT's picture

And if you can't avoid being paid in Dimon "cons" or Squid Quids, quit your job.  Seriously, you're better off starving to death.  Even the thought is tempting me to take some courses in mediation so I can withstand the hunger.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:29 | Link to Comment PT
PT's picture

The game-changer will be HSBCcoin.  After that, whoever cries about Bitcoin and Silk Road will be an idiot.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:57 | Link to Comment Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

HSBCoin, is that where you give your silver to HSBC, and then Jardine Matheson drops off the opium?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:24 | Link to Comment Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

And NRO just happens to have patches to go with it.  GS thinks of everything!

http://laughingsquid.com/u-s-launches-rocket-emblazoned-with-menacing-octopus-into-space/

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:04 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

50 years from now, we will have Cryptman Sachs, JP Cryptman, Federal Cryptoreserve

No, you won't. The point is that Bitcoin undercuts the cartel.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:07 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

I agree 100%.  I believe JPM is describing what is essentially PayPal and an iPhone with a wireless payment app.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:19 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

R.I.P Bitcoin dudes. It's over.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:29 | Link to Comment PT
PT's picture

Wait till you see HSBCcoin and Silk HSBCroad.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:36 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Bwa-hahahahaha. Harlequin owes me a new keyboard.  ClownCoin accepted.

Sinatra - The Best is Yet to Come

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:59 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

The arrogance of these fuckers is amazing isn't it?  They sorely misunderstand who is behind Bitcoin and why they are behind Bitcoin.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:08 | Link to Comment Mudduckk
Mudduckk's picture

Agreed. Thing fails without core support. The core will not yeild to JPM. You know who the core is....

Say My Name....

err....

Say My Name

Your name is #askjpmorgan

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:36 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

THANK YOU Mudduckk for your answers re my questions the other day re BTC.  I misspelled your name at my blog though.

I am with you two: NO WAY I would go with FedCoin, JPMCoin, JamieCoin, whatever they name it.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

12 months back I sent some money to Aussie land through Western Union it cost me $300 dollars (robing bastards) . This time I sent it through Bitcoin and it cost me about 5 cents . I was not sure about Bitcoin at first but trust me once you get your head around it why the hell anyone still plays with the old system is beyond me , just saying , by the way I have made more off Bitcoin in one month than all of my physical gold in 6 months , you see gold is still there system and every time they knock it down they have stolen off you.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:28 | Link to Comment TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

"gold is still there(sic) system and every time they knock it down they have stolen off you"

a) If you view gold as money and fiat as ultimately worthless paper, then the price of gold in dollars has no meaning to you anyway, they aren't stealing your gold.

b) Keeping the gold price artifically low, so long as there is actual physical gold available at this price (and there is, in the amounts I buy locally), "they" are actually giving me the oppurtunity to do the robbing.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:44 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

My 0.4301 BTC purchase of a 0.25 oz Au Eagle cost me 10 cents in BTC transaction costs!  $ value of 0.4301 when I bought was around $365.  In my case that works out to 0.03% (3 hundreths of 1%) to do it, wire transfers (to Korean bearing suppliers, etc.) typically cost some 1% or a bit more.  I do not have experience w/ Western Union, but $300 sounds outrageously high.

My average cost for the BTC I bought was $800 (Bearing Guy is late in the game), so I am up as well (for now), not counting the gold I just bought.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:26 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Awesome story. Thanks for sharing dodgie and bearing dude.

"From a market efficiency standpoint, if these companies are earning billions of dollars a year for providing a service which can be done for free, then if that service catches on, humanity will be billions of dollars per year richer. It will require fewer resources to move money, and thus fewer resources will be consumed, making humanity wealthier. Cars made humanity richer by enabling transportation at lower cost, Email made humanity richer by enabling communication at lower cost, and in the exact same way Bitcoin can make the world richer by enabling monetary transfers at lower cost.

All the work done by banks to hold and account for money (and transfer it between individuals and companies) can be done natively by Bitcoin. And so just as the payment services become redundant, so too do many services provided by banks, shrinking the banking sector down to those areas where it still serves useful value.

A Bitcoin world would still have banks, of course, but the banks would be properly placed into those market roles where they do useful work. People don't necessarily want to store value on home-based PC's, and a bank with security staff and safe systems may make a smart place to hold funds (but instead of everyone having to hold funds at the bank, it would be their option based on their risk-profile). Similarly, there will always be a need in a capitalist system for loans and interest paid on deposits. Banks would enjoy this ability with Bitcoin so long as they were efficient and could compete in the open market."

 

http://evoorhees.blogspot.com/2012/04/bitcoin-libertarian-introduction.h...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:05 | Link to Comment PT
PT's picture

Would a Dimon con, I mean coin, really catch on?  Sounds like we haven't done enough to educate the masses.  I'd be examining that source code really, really carefully.  And the hardware and software it was sitting on.  2nd thought:  Nope.  Too hard.  Run in the opposite direction.  Use a bloody big flame thrower to cover your tracks.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:03 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I'm guessing the folks here are going to chose 1 and 3.  Mind control experiments are conditioned as creatures of habit and their own worst enemies.  They think they are fighting the enemy by sending the enemy micro-payments and transaction fees.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:20 | Link to Comment Nostradumbass
Nostradumbass's picture

Hey fonestar,

If you were to advise someone just new to beginning the comprehension of cryptocurrencies/Bitcoin, would you have an opinion on timing a purchase? With all of the speculation and news on Baidu backing out etc. whipsawing it now, it seems rather risky today.

Honest question.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:27 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I'm not sure I am the greatest one to ask.  I got into Bitcoin early, I still think it is cheap for the technology being offered.  I never seem to buy or sell at exactly the right time.  Even if you buy $100 worth of BTC you will still own far more BTC than almost everyone on Earth.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:46 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Following up on Nostradumbass's question, I would suggest that he start slow (as you suggest just here).  Look around and buy with cash if possible.  I did!  And I am not really tech-savvy, I learned what I know from people here at ZH and asking lots of questions.  I am also late in the game, it is important that everyone know this and assess my remarks based on that.

But, when I get that gold coin (paid for with BTC), the whole world will know!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:35 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Finally, to understand why bitcoin is not an investment but is a new form of money that is merely moving towards parity with other metals,   read here,  http://evoorhees.blogspot.com/2012/04/bitcoin-libertarian-introduction.h... 

 

 

"Bitcoin is two things: it is a digital currency unit and it is the global payment network with which one sends and receives those currency units. Both the currency unit and the payment network share the same name: Bitcoin.

As a currency unit, consider Bitcoin like other currencies. The world has euros, dollars, yen, gold and silver ounces, and now it has Bitcoin as well. The properties of the Bitcoin currency unit are as follows:"....... continue reading at link above.

 

My .0002 BTC or 20,000satoshis,   bitcoin is not an investment. It is a form of money.   Money is not an investment. Money is merely trying to find parity. Gold is not an investment. Gold is merely money.

Here's the rub.   Bitcoin and gold ARE both investments these days, not because of any inherent property in them, but because both are artificially undervalued at current prices, considering what history has shown us (gold) whats its true value is and (BTC) what it's expected value will be based on its current utility.  

 

So in my understanding  both gold and btc are the items which everything else is measured against.  However gold is a tradiational barbaric relic and no longer used as a measure. BTC is too new so is not used as a measure.

If you believe gold, and bitcoin and useful scarce measure of everything else,  then it doesn't matter what the current price is.  It only matters where it will eventually find parity against other measuring devices.

 

That being said, all else being equal such as utility for every day transacting, there are roughly 350-700 ounces of gold for every bitcoin. 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:39 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

My fave bullion+coin shop tells me that they don't accept BTC because it's too volatile. If it ever reached price-stability, then... "Yes, absolutely!" 

Good to know.  BTC-VIX is the fault of Speculators + CBs.  The former juice and talk it up, the latter whack it down.  My guess is that by the time we have low VIX (price stability), TPTB (JPM!) wiil have their own version rolled out.  Until then, those MFers will deliberately "stir the pot" with FUD. 

Clearly there are plenty here who are happy to be either Shaken or Stirred, w/o much help from JPM/Dimon.  ;-)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:59 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

I have more p-work to do today. 

MintChip, E-Gold, JPMCoin, yada, yada.... they will all wind up being flops and Bitcoin will still be popular in 2140.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:22 | Link to Comment Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Only 2140?

Thx for the chuckle.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:35 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

The last Bitcoin will be mined around the year 2140.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

 UniCoin would be rather catchy and apropos. 

(Think  unicorn as the basis for my choice of names)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:54 | Link to Comment Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

"and Jaimie is Jar Jar Bynx..."

totally...or a typically tasteless Donald Trump marketing move...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:50 | Link to Comment Canadian Dirtlump
Canadian Dirtlump's picture

No kidding. Speaking of which I'd sooner used sea shells, fonestar's soiled gonch or shiny rocks for currency.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:52 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Uh fonestar is a hardcore stacker man, I've been up in this for years.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:13 | Link to Comment pods
pods's picture

pods gave fonestar a greenie for embracing TPT.  pods loves TPT as well.  

No, not Trailer Park Trash, Third Person Tuesday.

pods

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:15 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Everyday is TPT in the virtualized world.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:51 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I both pity and loathe TPT (Trailer Park Trash).  Not all TPs are trash, but most are.  From what I've seen.

But so are most Wall St bankers.  How's that for "ironic beauty" in this FilthyRich / FilthyPoor (as)symmetry?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:07 | Link to Comment adeptish
adeptish's picture

+1 for "gonch", lol...

Maybe we could call the new JPM coin "the gonch" ???

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:35 | Link to Comment Canadian Dirtlump
Canadian Dirtlump's picture

GONCHCOIN.

 

with this embossed on pictures of them, instead of a b dillar sign:

 

http://www.savingadvice.com/images/blog/skidbriefsafe.jpg

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:00 | Link to Comment Nothing but the...
Nothing but the truth.'s picture

Wouldn't trust JPM/Dimon with my used toilet paper. In fact my loo paper has the faces of Dimon and Blankfein printed on them.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:11 | Link to Comment mkkby
mkkby's picture

This is EXACTLY how I envisioned THE DEATH OF BITCOIN.  When goldman/visa/mastercard see it cutting into their territory and create their own competing versions.

ZH readers will never trust the bankers, but they have the ability to market the hell out of their competing product and the sheeple/muppets will jump on board.

That's the problem with bitcoin -- no barrier to entry.  Imagine every place that accepts a visa card now accepting visa "internet coin"?  Bye bye bitcoin.  Dump them while you can.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:18 | Link to Comment TradingTroll
TradingTroll's picture

I take it you never heard of "first mover advantage". Or "network effect"?

 

Nope, didnt think so.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:40 | Link to Comment Thisson
Thisson's picture

Those are good points, but if, for example, Walmart or Exxon were to open their own version(s) of bitcoin, they would have very large network effects.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:41 | Link to Comment Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

mkkby  " Bye bye bitcoin.  Dump them while you can." . People are buying bitcoin because they are sick of central control , do you really think these control freaks are going to issue a " coin " that they do not get contol over and a slice of the action on every transaction . you are missing the point of buying Bitcoin, the point is freedom from these idiots.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:39 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

"After all, what power would the Zimbabwe government have if its people had had Bitcoin in their communities - money they could hide and spend via cell phones and email accounts. What cause would there be in Greece to riot at the ECB mandates when the country can abandon the euro in favor of a money that each of them controls unto themselves. And from where would the US get the resources to deficit-finance its wars and welfare programs when it no longer has the ability to print money and pay back debt with debased currency? Like a gold standard, Bitcoin shackles a government and forces it to subsist only on what it can tax openly and legitimately borrow, but unlike a gold standard, Bitcoin doesn't require any official status to become a standard. The market can arrive at the standard sans government approval, again because it works elegantly both for storage and transfer and it cannot be stopped because it exists in decentralized form.

We see that along Bitcoin's growth and adoption curve, some exciting and quite revolutionary possibilities occur. Instead of trying to change governments with a useless vote, or pathetic pleading, we merely abandon the government's powerbase - the power derived from control of exchange and currency. The awkward inconveniences and growing pains of this new monetary system should be easily outweighed by the gift given to the noble cause of liberty if it should succeed. Time for a reality check. A prudent person should assume Bitcoin will fail, if for no other reason than that most new things fail. But, there is a very real chance it will succeed, and this chance is increased with every new user, every new business, and every new system developed within the Bitcoin economy. The ramifications of success are extraordinary, and it is thus worth at least a cursory review by any advocate of liberty, not just in the US but around the world. Spend some time with Bitcoin. Learn it, challenge it, and use it. You can assume no government wants you adopting this system in any capacity, and for that reason alone it's worth consideration by honest, moral, and industrious people." http://evoorhees.blogspot.com/2012/04/bitcoin-libertarian-introduction.h...
Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:01 | Link to Comment Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

Yeah Baby, Liberty Wooood.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:53 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

Why oh why can't they learn from history, oh Lord?  It's as if you designed them all with brain damage.

FREE BANKING PERIOD.

This is a new period of free banking, only better, because cryptocurrencies don't allow unending issuance like the old free banking currencies did.  Those had to be maintained, and if the banker's idiot son took over and decided to finance operations by printing their own currency, the bank would suffer a run and go bankrupt.  This can't happen with bitcoin, or most other cryptocurrencies because there is a set amount of currency units in existance (mined+unmined), meaning you can't mismanage them.  There is also built in incentive for people to process the transactions as transfer fees go to the miners generating new blocks.

Even WITHOUT KNOWING all that, bitcoin is still superior to dollars on literally every level.  Why wouldn't you want to use them for your transactional currency, while saving in gold?  Bitcoin enables freegold, after all.  Sure, it's a little Wild West right now, but greater adoption will bring about longer lasting institutions that must maintain their reputations.  Getting in on the ground floor is like getting in on real estate in Beverly Hills before it was built.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:01 | Link to Comment Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Reminds me of getting paid in company scrip, that can only be spent at the company store, TBH.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:44 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

WUT?!?!

Where is this company store?

What company exactly are we referring to?

Surely there is a Bitcoin CEO somewhere we can go arrest?

 

if you mean the free people of the world is the company, and you can only spend the money for the things the free people create then yes...  I see your point.    well said.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:49 | Link to Comment Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Because anyone can found a competing cryptocurrency, why should anyone adopt BTC?  Then ultimately these cryptocurrencies will only be accepted in exchange for certain goods or services.  Everyone being able to create their own version of a crypto currency is the aspect that reminds me of company scrip, not BTC on its own.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:11 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

My problem with, and skepticism of, bitcoin is based on one fundamental fact: NOTHING that involves the internet can ever be truly anonymous, as cash (and gold) can be and is.

Call me paranoid if you will, but I see the Number of the Beast (or at least the real potential for it) every time I read the word "bitcoin".

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:56 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Interesting comment.

Internet security is a growing field. Back in the early days of internet, it was too small and obscure to warrant any attention. Today we need real solutions, security thru obscurity is not a good solution. Thankfully there are many people working to continue securing the internet. It sounds to me like internet security is just not a hobby of yours.

 

Let me ask you these questions.

What malware removal software do you use?

Is it possible to block the ads that zerohedge places before us?

What is a VPN and TOR browser? How are they similar and different from each other?

What is a meshnet?

 

if you dont know the answer to those questions then I understand your skepticism, however I THINK your skepticism is really due to your lack of understanding internet security, not some flaw in BTC.

i say all this because this statement "NOTHING that involves the internet can ever be truly anonymous" is patently false.

 

I won't touch the whole "mark of the beast topic"   I will just agree to disagree with you on  your personal beliefs.

 

FWIW I believe Jesus was a libertarian, fighting the money changers and imperialistic government of his day. If Jesus had bitcoin available to him, he needn't have died on a cross like the founders of e-gold, liberty reserve etc were "crucified" in modern fassion.  Bitcoin doesn't take government head on. It allows us to elegantly side step it.  Jesus loves bitcoin, or would if he were alive and risen today.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 18:10 | Link to Comment Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

Akak, are you posting in from a Windows OS !?  Prank Caller Prank Caller...

LOL

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:02 | Link to Comment CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

Muppet Money...HAhahahahah.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:05 | Link to Comment Mercury
Mercury's picture

JPM et al already have their own currency: money market accounts.

It always trades at parity to USD but you can't always covert it to USD and lay your hands on it.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:58 | Link to Comment Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

Money for nothing and the collapse for free

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:13 | Link to Comment The Navigator
The Navigator's picture

Here's your money for nothing

(last paragraph)

On Wednesday, German police arrested two people for illegally generating bitcoins worth more than $950,000. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/12/05/small-town-police-chief-will-...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:07 | Link to Comment Ban KKiller
Ban KKiller's picture

Totally trustworthy! I mean Banksters have a great track record of honest dealings...especially as the Federal Reserve Board of Governors is adept, at what, exactly? Oh yeah, crime. 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:16 | Link to Comment rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

"Method and system for processing internet payments using the electronic funds transfer network,"

Yeah Jamie, it's called a debit card.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:19 | Link to Comment ZH Snob
ZH Snob's picture

how would they expect to get anyone to trust them with the crypt?  time and time again JPM has proven themselves to be blatant thieves.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:26 | Link to Comment Renewable Life
Renewable Life's picture

What's gone?? BTC

OMG LOL, no Jamie dipshit might be gone, BTC might double now, with this BS charade!  These dumbfuck clowns THINK BTC is about " a need for a new cashless payments system"!!!!! Ohhhhh thats priceless, which is also what "web cash" will go to soon!!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:02 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Re "And it's gone!"

Dimon:  "And that's why I'm richer than you are."  Are you feeling the Wealth Effect yet?  I am.

p.s. Fuck you, Dimon!  Just because.  You're still an asshole.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:53 | Link to Comment Pseudonymous
Pseudonymous's picture

Or, as in the case of Bitcoin during the congressional hearings:

And it's doubled!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:04 | Link to Comment indygo55
indygo55's picture

Does it provide a way to keep them from printing the shit out of it?

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:35 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

"Mint Chip: Part Two" - having a network of something that reads like a frequent flier miles rewards program doesn't sound anywhere similar to Bitcoin. But I'm sure they'll try their little banker hearts out. Should be as hilarious as Canada's attempt to do so.

First mover advantage is a bitch, also when your company has the reputation that JP Morgan has, they may have a bit of a problem selling the concept. Did the twitter Q&A teach them nothing? People remember what they've done.

Wake me up when they have something hashing at 25% of what the Bitcoin network can do, because they have a LONG haul to get there - that is, if they even implement a blockchain at all. Somehow being shady bastards, I doubt they will.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:48 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

What's the evidence that JPM, hasn't been mining/buying bitcoin to begin with? 

When fraud is the status quo, possession is the law.

Please, nothing changes until trust and some rule of law returns, just ask John Corzine.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:47 | Link to Comment NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

None, and they already have the hardware setup for it with their HFT operations.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 12:59 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

This is a delicate issue.

It doesn't matter if bitcoin is a currency.  It doesn't matter what businesses accept it.  It doesn't matter if traders push it up or down.

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS IT IS IMMUNE TO BORDERS.

The Cyprus confiscation scenario is coming.  It is the standard procedure re Argentina.  The Nazis went after the German Jews Swiss bank accounts and often got that money.

Bitcoin is immune to that.  It is amorphous.  It doesn't matter if you can't buy gasoline at a convenience store with it, as long as there is some method to convert to local currency.  If that exists, in all countries for their currencies, then one can escape government control of the borders.

Make no mistake on this, guys.  The shelter in place crowd are going to die.  The German Jews sheltered in place.  Only fleeing a situation will save you, and when that day comes the government WILL be xraying your luggage for gold.  Bitcoins don't xray.  It is their only value and it's a powerful value.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:00 | Link to Comment SMG
SMG's picture

Yes tell me how immune to borders it is when the IRS comes forensic accounting your butt, wondering why you're driving a Lotus with a BITCOIN vanity plate.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:07 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Suppose you're not driving a Lotus with any license plate at all.  And what forensic accounting is relevant if you never sell?  A stock in your portfolio that rises and is not sold generates no capital gains tax.  Your point has nothing to do with cross border portability.

Now once you're out and need cash to live, you do sell a few bitcoins to have local currency.  Assuming their price rose, you'd have cap gains tax on that, as you would on any item where you tried to park money.  There is no difference in this. 

The subject is immunity to borders.  Not taxes.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:22 | Link to Comment mkkby
mkkby's picture

I agree bitcoin is useful for a quick in/out to cross a border and avoid gov confiscation.  But as a long term store of value?  Don't be stupid.  It's completely useless for that purpose until it settles down to a stable value.  And that won't happen until it's widely accepted.

By the time it's widely accepted, it will threaten the business model of visa/mastercard and bank transfers.  Since there is no barrier to entry, they all can EASILY create their own version... and MARKET THE HELL OUT OF IT.  So bitcoin will never be able to mature enough to be a store of value.  Bye bye bitcoin.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:37 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Wasn't this said about the internet?  That when it threatened the brick and mortar business model it would be co-opted by Sears?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:59 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

It doesn't need to be widely accepted, it just needs to be accepted by a stable number of people and businesses.  You know, like any other currency.

And you don't use bitcoin to store value (in the long run), you use gold for that.  Bitcoin is the transactional currency that makes freegold work.  No central issuer to devalue them.  Gold standards are harder because they require either government acceptance, or government has to keep its nose out of currency transactions so private companies can facilitate gold transactions.  But even that isn't really as good as bitcoin, because it still requires a trusted third party, which increases costs.

You keep your savings in gold and silver, and you pay your bills with bitcoin.  If you need to move, you can sell your gold and silver for bitcoin, then buy them back at your new address (ie outside the country).  Very simple.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:51 | Link to Comment mkkby
mkkby's picture

"Bitcoin is the transactional currency that makes freegold work.  No central issuer to devalue them."

I'm surprised to hear this from a long time ZHer like yourself.  What difference does devaluation make in transactional time frames?  Devaluation only matters when using fiat as a store of value -- bad idea.

Bitcoin CANNOT BE a store of value until the price swings settle down.  Therefore BTC is only useful for transactions and taking funds cross border safely. 

People don't need a new transactional currency.  Any fiat is fine for that.  Get it and use it fast.  Save extra in gold.  No problem with devaluation.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 16:55 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

The problem with that simplistic 'Freegold' theory is that there is NOT any clearcut division between "transactional currency" and "store of value" --- those two facets of money blend into each other in real life.  So the inflationary 'transactional' (fiat) currency will still rob value from its users, if somewhat less than under the arrangement of today, where that same currency must also function as the (supposedly and highly flawed) store of value.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:49 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Sorry, you are not an authority on what can and cannot be done.  I am using BTC to store some value.  Therefore I must be some kind of Wizard since it "CANNOT BE" done.

I strive to have as little contact with fiat currency as possible and refuse to exchange my labor for it.  I only accept PMs or PNs (precious numbers).  Fiat is convenient and brainwashed into our psyche but we don't have to feed the beast.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:02 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Aye, if people are stupid enough to pile into JMPCoin they deserve whatever they'll get.  Who knows, maybe they'll sell off some gold to acquire JPMCoins.  Darwinsm in free markets and all that.  Meanwhile, smart folks will continue on with Gold and Bitcoin.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:35 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

God, I can't believe this site is SO full of simpletons who can't think beyond 2D or B&W!  [rolls eyes]

Newsflash, sunshine:  The IRS has only 'Mericans as its slaves.  Everyone else is "ROTF, LMAO", saying "Fuck You, IRS!"

If, say, I had the sense to have bought $50k in BTC when it was trading at @ $1 -- instead of buying over-priced, over-hyped and over-manipulated Gold -- I'd be sitting on ~ $50M.  In which case, I'd be leaving the "USS of fucking A", and taking up very comfortable residency in one of the MANY friendly countries.  And writing the IRS a nice, polite and diplomatic version of "FUCK YOU!  FOAD!"

And so would you.  If you had any balls or smarts.

p.s. Allow me to let you in on a Dirty Little Secret the IRS does NOT want Joe 6-Pack to know:  If you got many, many millions of very liquid assets and actually took up Lawful Permanent Residency (LPR) in a "foreign jurisdiction", you could actually NEGOTIATE a tax rate with the IRS.  And they are not the only country to do this.  A Brit friend of mine did this a few years ago.  All very much on the QT -- for OBVIOUS reasons.  If you "ask" them about it, you obviously don't qualify and they will blow you off (or any other journalist).  You actually have to apply from "the other side", to be taken seriously.  And the ones who do, seldom talk... as part of The Deal.

Don't you feel real Proud and Patriotic now?  Keep saying to yourself:  "I'm NOT a Serf. I'm NOT a Subject."  Even though you're both.  Look up the term "US Subject" on the DOJ or IRS websites.  You're a "Subject".  Just like in the Feudal Middle Ages, under King George, when your ancestors (if of British origin) were Subjects of the Crown, of King George.  The real US died in 1913.  Happy Centennial, Subject.  Meet your New Masters.  Who are the same Old Masters:  Feudal Oligarchs and their Banskters.

Your only "out" is to live an a Parallel (underground) economy or to leave the USSA.  Cause... "They got you by the balls!" - philosopher Carlin

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:15 | Link to Comment MopWater
MopWater's picture

Bitcoins are worth nothing without access to the internet, and lord knows when the SHTF, the precious ibterwebz will still be as free as it is now.

 

/sarcasm

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 13:51 | Link to Comment Animal Cracker
Animal Cracker's picture

Flee to where?  Serious question.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 14:52 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Can't answer.  A month is a lifetime in politics.  Any place mentioned will have detractors. 

The point is Cyprus limited (and maybe still do) people to $200/day extraction of money from whatever wasn't confiscated.  Pre buy bitcoin and the person is immune to that.  They can flee -- to wherever doesn't do that.

You have far bigger problems to solve about where than bitcoin.  You have visa limits.  But that's not the point.  The point is to hold bitcoins so you can flee when a Cyprus / Argentina event arrives and destroys your life and livelihood. 

You do have to make this part of prepping.  Obviously a govt will shut down internet access to bitcoin sites as part of sealing the border outflow of money.  You have to already have it owned.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 15:49 | Link to Comment Wen_Dat
Wen_Dat's picture

If you live in the US, probably won't be able to flee (when you finally decide to). Best bet is to go where very few people live. I'll probably head to the U.P.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 17:56 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

It's not so much "flee", as "relocate".  Instead of in-state or out-of-state, you take the next step.

To wherever you can ply your skills/craft/trade/profession/business, and the "quality of life" is better, taxes are lower or acceptable. 

The exact "where" depends entirely on YOUR skill set: 

> What foreign language(s) do you speak or are willing to learn? 

> Are you retired?  Yes?  Congrats.  No?  Then...

> Do you own a business or need a job?  Is your business or job "portable"? 

>  Alone, empty nester, or have family (wife & kids)?  Different scenario (complexity) for each.  If you have Family, how often 'must' (versus 'want') you all visit the US?  Can US family and/or friends visit you instead?

PORTABLE JOBS: If you're a Merchant, have a Skilled Trade, are a Project Manager, or have a degree in the Natural Sciences or Engineering, your skill is "portable". 

NOT PORTABLE JOBS: If you're an Accountant or Lawyer... not so much.  Hell, you can't even be a lawyer outside your state, w/o a lot of pain and effort.  / And the world does not need more lawyers.  Even/especially American lawyers. /sarc

The above all translates into lifestyle and economic security abroad.

If you still need additional input, email me at my hush mail address, using my handle. If you're a decent human being, I'd be happy to tell you more.  Always happy to make new acquaintances/friends.  Cheers.

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