This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

Ukraine Escalates: Police, Some Armed With Chainsaws, Storm Protest Camp - Live Webcasts

Tyler Durden's picture





 

It will be a long night in Kiev, where as warned previously, once things start rolling downhill, they will deteriorate rapidly. Via Bloomberg:

  • POLICE STORM PROTEST CAMP IN CENTER OF KIEV, AP REPORTS
  • UKRAINIAN POLICE MASS NEAR BARRICADES AT KIEV SQUARE
  • RIOT POLICE ARMED WITH CHAINSAWS APPROACH KIEV BARRICADES
  • UKRAINIAN POLICE INSIDE KIEV PROTEST CAMP

 

 

Live Webcasts:




#ffffff; display: block; color: #000000; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10px; text-decoration: underline; text-align: center;">Live streaming video by Ustream

Previously:

 

Some background from Guy Haselmann of Scotiabank:

Ukraine is a strategically important country of 45 million people. A trade pact with the EU was close. However, it appears that a rival bid (or other means of influence) arose during two closed door meetings with Vladimir Putin. The press often reports that President Yanukovich’s corrupt government has shown an instinct for self-preservation often at the expense of the expense of the nation.

 

The Ukraine economy is in recession. The country has only $20 billion of foreign reserves which is 2 ½ months of imports (worse than Egypt). The IMF’s red flag level is 3 months. Ukraine has $10bln of external debt maturing in 2014. Its CDS rose over 100 bps this week to near 1100. Debt-to-GDP is only 43%, but Argentina defaulted with its debt-to-GDP at 50%. Its currency (Hryvnia), which was devalued in 2008, is pegged to the dollar. The current account deficit is 7% and herein lies the biggest problem.

 

The IMF is unlikely to help until after the 2015 election. The EU is unlikely to provide any aid. Russia may be enticed to help via loans. The President is on his way to China - who may help - but he may return no longer in power.

And Goldman notes the situation is fluid but highly likely that anti-regime protests will persist with several possible scenarios developing:

1) President Yanukovich declares a state of emergency and/or uses force to prevent protests from developing further;

 

2) President Yanukovich agrees to talks with the opposition and to a roadmap for signing the EU association agreement at some point in 2014 (our understanding had been that this would not be possible on the EU side, but EU leaders have recently suggested otherwise);

 

3) President Yanukovich does nothing and protests persist.

From the macroeconomic standpoint, these protests come at a time when the National Bank of Ukraine (NBU) has had to defend the currency peg through sizeable interventions, which have depleted the reserve cover to 2.5 months of imports, and when the government is arguably unable to roll its debt in the market. Goldman fears the further risk is that, due to the heightened political uncertainty, capital outflows could intensify, putting further pressure on the peg.

While there had been some press reports suggesting sizeable Russian financial help in exchange for the country not signing the EU association agreement, the recent developments, in our view, call this further into question. We think that Russia is unlikely to extend substantial help without guarantees. Given that it appears that President Yanukovich's chances of holding on to power beyond the 2015 spring election have decreased following the protests and schisms in his administration might even weaken his powers earlier (splits in the Region's Party, for instance, might deprive him of a majority in parliament) he might very well not be in a position any more to give those guarantees.

As indicated by polling and by the participation in street protests, the decision to suspend preparations for signing the EU association agreement was an unpopular one, at least with a significant part of the population. Goldman believes that President Yanukovich may have underestimated the political ramifications of doing so.

At this stage, it is difficult to forecast how the situation will evolve. Apart from the size of the protests it also matters to what extent the president can hold on to his own power bases in the Regions Party and the eastern part of the country. Given that the economy is in recession and the heavy industries in the east in particular are suffering, his support there might very well be more brittle than in the past.

But perhaps there is a silver lining - in an odd twisted way - the concerns about Ukrainian banks and the currency peg have seen deposit outflows increasing the risk to the country's financial system and creating a particularly acute headache for Russian banks. The silver lining, of course, is that Russia may be forced to provide more assistance in a Cyprus-style save for its own banks (lenders) and depositors...

As Reuters notes,

While other foreign lenders have cut their Ukraine exposure in the five years since - to 20 percent of Ukraine banking sector assets in 2012 from 40 percent in 2008, according to a Raiffeisen Research survey - Russian banks have maintained a strong market presence, still accounting for 12 percent.

 

Among foreign banks, the Russians have easily the biggest exposure, more than twice that of Austrian lenders, the next biggest.

 

...

 

"[Moodys] estimate that these banks' exposure to Ukrainian risk is $20-$30 billion, a sizeable amount indeed, considering that their combined Tier 1 capital was $105 billion in June," Moody's said.

 

...

 

Moody's, which estimated that 35 percent of all bank loans in Ukraine were problem loans, said the country's severe economic problems would keep local borrowers under pressure and could result in higher loan losses for the Russian lenders.

 

In the absence of the association agreement with the European Union, Russian-Ukrainian trade is likely to rise, and the four big Russian banks may well increase their exposure to Ukraine, it added.

 

...

 

Dimitry Sologoub, head of research at Raiffeisen in Kiev, said the banks had learned lessons from the 2008 crisis, so were much less exposed to credit risk, liquidity risk and forex risk, and the central bank was calming matters by providing liquidity and foreign exchange.

 

"The question is how long it will go? The reserve cushion of the national bank is not so big."

 

In the meantime, Ukraine might secure short-term benefits from its closer ties with Russia, enough perhaps to stave off the kind of currency crisis that nearby Belarus suffered in 2011, said Charles Robertson, chief global economist at Renaissance Capital in London.

 

"In the long run, it will probably keep Ukraine poor. This is bad for Ukrainians and bad for Russia," he added.

 

"Instead of being a strong, successful economy on Russia's borders, able to buy plenty of Russian exports, Ukraine risks becoming another Belarus."

Which - after all - could be just what Putin wants...

 


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:42 | Link to Comment Cult_of_Reason
Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:43 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Uh-oh...
Somebody stepped out of their free speech zone.

If you like your free speech you can do it elsewhere.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:45 | Link to Comment Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

"We estimate the critical level of reserves is around $15 billion, so authorities have less than $4 billion now to continue to defend the status quo,” said Vladimir Osakovsky, an economist at Bank of America/Merrill Lynch."

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:51 | Link to Comment kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

SCOTUS already ruled there's no free speech.........however.......you can pay for any speech ya want........see....."corporations are peeps too"

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:53 | Link to Comment bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

You can pay for speeches with bitcoins now too!!! Get some free bitcoins at http://freebitco.in/?r=25727

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 09:59 | Link to Comment Abi Normal
Abi Normal's picture

Dear Comrade, Ve must break you!

Coming to a city near YOU!?

Stand up for your rights when it comes, and if they try to break you, break them!

Molon Labe

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:35 | Link to Comment The Final Straw
The Final Straw's picture

If you don't like your "democracy", you can talk to the chainsaw.

CHAINSAW DEMOCRACY.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:44 | Link to Comment Rubbish
Rubbish's picture

I once took a chainsaw to my son's bedroom door, gets attention, the wtf is daddy smoking?

 

The smell of 2 stroke in the hallway is better than napalm.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:38 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I thought they were going to make ice sculptures, and go carolling.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 01:27 | Link to Comment StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Never show up at a gunfight with a chainsaw!  (It's coming...)

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:44 | Link to Comment The Final Straw
The Final Straw's picture

Chainsaw wielding, crowd busting Obama.

http://mylatestcreations.tumblr.com/image/69657001100

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 01:18 | Link to Comment Agent P
Agent P's picture

Husqvarna bitchez! 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:10 | Link to Comment Tim_
Tim_'s picture

Office of Presidential Advance - Presidential Advance Manual

"First, as always, work with the Secret Service and have them ask the local police department to designate a protest area ["free-speech zone"] where demonstrators can be placed, preferably not in view of the event site or motorcade route" (p. 34).

"The formation of 'rally squads' is a common way to prepare for demonstrators by countering their message. This tactic involves utilizing small groups of volunteers to spread favorable messages using large hand held signs, placards, or perhaps a long sheet banner, and placing them in strategic areas around the site" (p. 34).

"Once a group of demonstrators has been identified, the Advance person must decide what action to take. If it is determined that the media will not see or hear them and that they pose no potential disruption to the event, they can be ignored. On the other hand, if the group is carrying signs, trying to shout down the President, or has potential to cause some greater disruption to the event, action needs to be taken immediately to minimize the demonstrator's effect" (p. 35).

"If demonstrators appear likely to cause only a political disruption, it is the Advance person's responsibility to take appropriate action. Rally squads should be dispatched to surround and drown out demonstrators immediately" (p. 35).

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:31 | Link to Comment takeaction
takeaction's picture

This is not live, this is a Call of Duty episode....is this Multi Player?   I was trying to join...have full Black Ops kit ready to go...I can't enter....isn't this a game...Oh wait...

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:47 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

Hi, I'd like to upgrade these long knives to a gas powered chainsaw....

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:41 | Link to Comment Four chan
Four chan's picture

gears of war.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:49 | Link to Comment max2205
max2205's picture

Hi, I'd like to upgrade these long knives to a gas powered chainsaw....

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:45 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

The Ukraine matters, but it is not our fight.  There is terrible injustice in the world that we in the USA can simply do nothing about.  Stay out.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:03 | Link to Comment NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

What?  And let Putin win?  NEVER!  I say fire up the transports and let's put some boots on the ground!  Or at least run some arms through Libya to the Ukrainian insurgents (can we call them insurgents yet?  Seems like we're close to that point).  OK, OK, let's at least send some special ops forces to train the protesters/insurgents in guerilla fighting tactics.

They're using chain saws of Mass Destruction, for crying out loud!

C'mon, man, this is the age of "just get something done!"  The MSM says so.  We can't just sit here doing NOTHING.  We've got to mess in the affairs of others or we just wouldn't be the United States any more!

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:23 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

I say President Redline should outline a way Forward! with an embargo on chainsaw oil!!!

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 01:21 | Link to Comment ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

There are no black people in the Ukraine so the US will not be sending any troops.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:31 | Link to Comment Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

This video is a very good sign.  It shows that Law enforcement and the Military can turn and side with the population.

Riot Police Remove Their Helmets in Solidarity With Italian Protesters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jqzUX8fkMk

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:58 | Link to Comment El Tuco
El Tuco's picture

What you fail to realize like so many here is that without Ukraine Russia is just another country. With Ukraine they become a super power. Who loses? Eroupe and the US, that's who.

I really don't hear the Ukrainians asking for anyone's help, especially American help? Such elitists here that think everyone wants or needs Americas help.

Don't know if you noticed but America can barely help itself with 25 thousand homeless kids on the Manhattan streets and 60 million on EBT. Real unemployment at around 18 %. Geezuss, we're fucking approaching Greece/Spain kind of conditions. Soon the US might be asking Putin to lend it a few bucks....

So save your breath because we can't even help ourselves....

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:36 | Link to Comment forwardho
forwardho's picture

You Sir, have neglected to read the latest .gov approved BLS reports.

In the future, please refrain from contradicting the BLS.

The future of the fantasy relies on you!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:46 | Link to Comment H H Henry P P P...
H H Henry P P P Paulson's picture

Oh boy, movie night tonight.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:47 | Link to Comment hmmmstrange
Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:50 | Link to Comment Debeachesand Je...
Debeachesand Jerseyshores's picture

Could this new Orange Revolution turn into a Orange Swan????

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:00 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

More like Goose L'Orange.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 19:54 | Link to Comment Haus-Targaryen
Haus-Targaryen's picture

The only appropriate way to deal with Pro-EU fascists.  

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:01 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

Ukrane Chainsaw Massacre

This time, it really happened.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:05 | Link to Comment A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I'd love to help, but I'm up for reelection..........

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:23 | Link to Comment Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Chainsaws that would make me scatter faster than them firing bullets. Though they can learn from the Israeli's on how to deal with dispersing protesters. They spray them with skunk juice. If you try wash it off it increases the stench afterwards. It is some really nasty stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F2KVYuv5qaM

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:44 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

That would be chemical warfare on the Defense. -10 yards. Repeat second down.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:10 | Link to Comment Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

Some "context and perspective" beyond the AP and Bloomberg filter -please?

Perhaps some Russian and Eastern European news services might be helpful in giving a more balanced and well rounded assessment of the situation on current crisis. 

These two sources are as trustworthy as CNN.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:09 | Link to Comment deerhunter
deerhunter's picture

have Barry fly there and speak,, he was just warming up in SA this morning.  I almost puked listening to him.  I have friends in SA and what is left of that country is shambles.  Apartheid was never right but anarchy is not very stable either.  

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:15 | Link to Comment fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

I was thinking the same thing, one speech from Barracky and everything is fixed or somebody else fault.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:10 | Link to Comment buzzsaw99
Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:24 | Link to Comment westboundnup
westboundnup's picture

Ukraine is game to you?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:11 | Link to Comment 1stepcloser
1stepcloser's picture

Let me know when the tanks show up!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:49 | Link to Comment nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

God, please, give a chance for the Ukrainians to throw the communists under the tank tracks ... amen.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:57 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Amen.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 09:13 | Link to Comment kralizec
kralizec's picture

They'll never be indpenedent until they stand up to Russia as well as refuse to become the EU's newest bitch.  That region begs for a coalition of central states to band together in a confederacy to check both East and West!

Doubt I'll ever live to see it though.

Sad.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:13 | Link to Comment One And Only
One And Only's picture

Ukrainians better buy some bitcoin, gold, silver. That banking system will collapse and it will be thoroughly pillaged before it does.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:36 | Link to Comment Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

And they will certainly know where to buy PMs in the bargain basement of all bargain basement's courtesy of the United States Federal Reserve Bank.

No wonder they want to come to the U.S.? 

Would be interesting though to find out what the restrictions are for shipping metal outside the U.S. if it's purchased here?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:44 | Link to Comment One And Only
One And Only's picture

You have to send it over via canoe....

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:06 | Link to Comment El Tuco
El Tuco's picture

You think they have money? A doctor makes about US250.00 a month. The country had been pillaged already. Yanukovych had 3 armored trucks show up to his personal residence to take all his US/Euro out to a waiting plane. The oligarchs who have stolen 100's of billions keep their money in London/Swiss/etc banks.......not in Ukrainian banks....

 

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:52 | Link to Comment Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

Unfortunately much of what you say is true.

But the only way that the Ukraine and the rest of the Eastern European and poorer representatives of the EU community like Greece, Ireland and Portugal that have ponied up to the IMF/Trilateral Commission that's been raping them with exorbitantly high interest loans that must be held in USD and Euros and is stealing the real wealth and resources from these Countries is to follow the model of what Iceland has been doing.

This means holding the politicians that signed up to these deals along with the banks liable.

We can only assume where Crete would be right now if they had decided not to join the EU?

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:16 | Link to Comment Uber Vandal
Uber Vandal's picture

Note to self, keep garbage can closer for when things escalate further out of control.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:17 | Link to Comment tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

Chainsaws United vs Federal Elections Commission.

Hillary the Horror Movie.... Chainsaws are people under the law.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:23 | Link to Comment x-moose
x-moose's picture

Amazingly the bells of St Michael cathedral, the one in close proximity to the Independence Square are now ringing alarming Kievans to arms (or rather to peaceful resistance). My educated guess is that the last such event took place in 1240 during Mongol siege.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:31 | Link to Comment Blood Spattered...
Blood Spattered Banner's picture

Pretty obvious this US intelligence agencies helping stir the pot. The Snowden fail the US experienced stung like a bitch.

Also, "Pro EU"?  What's there to be "Pro" about?  Like the US, the EU is currently grabbing it's ankles, while central banks and oppresive corporations take their turns from behind. 

That's how I know this is an artificial protest. Both outcomes mean the same for Ukranians.  I guess they're just as stupid as the average 'Murikan. 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:51 | Link to Comment Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Interesting point if the US is behind fomenting the protests and Russia gets annoyed over that might seem some interesting things dropped in the next few days/weeks.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 22:28 | Link to Comment Escapedgoat
Escapedgoat's picture

What about the Italians and the Greeks THAT DESPISE the Eurocrats? Not to mention the Spaniards and the Portugese, that there are never ending protests going on? BUT NOT REPORTED????

Seems to me that the biggest battle that is raging is, on our Monitors (My TVs were dumped years ago)

So we have the Banksters are fighting it out for our hearts and minds  ( Brains were fried out years back , what with all that shit)

And the Ukranians WANT TO JOIN THE EUROFASCHISTS?

 Please someone explain

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 08:03 | Link to Comment Puppet Hegemon
Puppet Hegemon's picture

Starting from the 1st Dec the prostests are not about EU any longer. The demonstrants demand:

1) punishment for officials who ordered to beat peaceful demonstrants (mostly students) 30th of Nov;

2) extraordinary parliament and presidential elections.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:30 | Link to Comment johny2
johny2's picture

Ukraine, beware the people offering the loans with the interest and conditions attached.

 

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 08:26 | Link to Comment auric1234
auric1234's picture

Temeo banksters et loan ferentes

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:33 | Link to Comment chump666
chump666's picture

Police with chainsaws!

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:32 | Link to Comment Jethro
Jethro's picture

Popos with chainsaws. This sounds terribly exciting.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 20:51 | Link to Comment AreaMan
AreaMan's picture

Thank god that would never happen here..... the protest i mean.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:00 | Link to Comment shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Repudiate the debt, Ukraine!

 

I just want to see Putin with a chainsaw.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:15 | Link to Comment starman
starman's picture

Putin wouldn't hesitate to use any kind of weapon to reign over the US!
I grew up around Russians they're one tough fucks!

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:17 | Link to Comment Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

No government deserves respect, they are only worthy of scorn and contempt......

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:20 | Link to Comment Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

I'm having a hard time figuring out which side to root for. On the one hand there is Putin, who is a rat bastard KGB commie with the recent redeeming action of spoiling the neocon war party in Syria. One the other hand we have the pro-EU factions who are NWO bankster bung hole polishers.

None of the above? Order out of chaos guys at work here? Need better intel!

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 08:25 | Link to Comment auric1234
auric1234's picture

Side with your comrades which are the people suffering at the streets.

 

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:23 | Link to Comment 401-Kulak
401-Kulak's picture

These commies are sucking Ukraine dry again - no wonder they have no reserves.

http://www.yanukovich.info/

And burlap bags do wonders for chainsaw sprockets

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:00 | Link to Comment stormsailor
stormsailor's picture

battery, hose, electric fuel pump and gas can with igniter can stop that shield wall in a skinny second. more than one way to skin a possum.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:49 | Link to Comment Orly
Orly's picture

May God bless our Ukraina.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 21:53 | Link to Comment rustymason
rustymason's picture

Choose the Destructor. What a choice. Another Holodomor coming?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 22:01 | Link to Comment Charles Wilson
Charles Wilson's picture

"What would Hafez Al-Assad do?"

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 22:35 | Link to Comment Stock Jobber
Stock Jobber's picture

All of you claiming that the EU is as bad or worse than Russia - you must be delusional.  What is the big bad EU going to do?  Squash Ukraine like it did Greece?  Murder them to death with loans?  It's idiotic.  Greece *borrowed*.  They borrowed foolishly and the EU foolishly encouraged it and now they are all up the creek.  

And you cry about how these diabolical corporations are just ruining your lives as if they were in your home torturing and raping your family on a daily basis.  Corporations can do nothing to you but sell products.  It's governments that actually seize your money.  Debase your money.  Seize your person and throw you in a camp.  And as history has proven much worse.  Corporations are involved because that's where the governments get their money.  But the governments have the power in that relationship.  Why should a prince do what a capitalist is bribing him to do when he can simply throw that capitalist in jail and seize his money?  Putin does it all the time.

The governments of the EU have engaged in a lot of foolish financial shenanigans.  And it's cost a lot people a lot of money and people are suffering.  They have a lot of stupid annoying rules and they pretty much suck.  The government of Russia on the other hand is ruled by a megalomaniac.  A sadistic KGB thug who has made himself president for life.  He has consolidated power by simply eliminating regional governors, by jailing political opponents, by shutting down the last of the independent press.  He pines away for the old Soviet days, and would obviously like to incorporate Ukraine and the rest of the former Soviet Socialist Republics back into a new union under his absolute control.  

The west has made some huge mistakes and is taking some fateful steps down the road toward fascism.  But Putin is way way ahead.  Putin is already there.  The west can still right itself.  Russia, and any country that falls under its power, is completely doomed.

God bless Ukraine

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 22:54 | Link to Comment Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

What shall Ukraine do with the 50% of the population that wants nothing to do with the EU? What will the EU do to Eastern Ukraine, invade and conquer, because that is the only way those people will accept EU rule. Then there is Crimea, they are not Ukrainian and never have been.

Will Ukraine give back to Poland the western lands it stole at war's end under under the guise of the USSR? Will it give Crimea it's freedom, it was a Ukrainian leader of the USSR who put Crimea into the Ukraine.

Lets try this. Ukraine give back stolen lands and allows the people of the east to to seperate and give Crimea it's freedom to choose.

If Western Ukraine wants the EU then they should be allowed to join. No argument there. But will they demand that the other lands that are not Ukrainian be forced into the EU by gunpoint?  You do know today's Ukrainian borders are not Ukranian, but USSR borders?

When you bless your freedom to go to the EU, will you bless the other's freedoms who want no part of EU or Western Ukrainian rule?

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:38 | Link to Comment Stock Jobber
Stock Jobber's picture

All of your questions about national borders apply equally to Ukraine joining the Putin customs union or Ukraine remaining an independent country.  If your point is that Ukraine should split up into separate states then you are really starting a whole other discussion.

What's on the table right now is not even joining the EU.  It's a free trade agreement.  It can only help Ukraine.  It doesn't mean joining the EU or switching to the Euro.  

Poland has done very well by maintaining Zlotys but enjoying EU passports and free trade.  Ukraine could do the same.

There is nothing diabolical or menacing about the EU deal.  They are idiots who have screwed up their own economies sure.  They also have practically 0 military capability.  And wouldn't know what to do with it if they did.  They are the most non-threatening bunch of rich idiots you could ever enter into a deal with.

Putin wants to eat Ukraine for dinner.  He'll take a mile for every inch he gets.  And once he gets it there will be no going back.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 04:05 | Link to Comment Debugas
Debugas's picture

free trade agreement can only HURT Ukraine's competitivness.

have you even read it ? Do you know that it would for example require ukrain to change their railroads width to comply with EU standard instead of russian ones? How much capital would that drain ?

free trade agreement is about opening up ukranian markets and redesigning ukrainian products to fit EU standards.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:54 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Without Crimea, is there any value in what remains?

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 04:00 | Link to Comment Debugas
Debugas's picture

eastern ukrain is rich in mineral resources and has some soviet era factories still functioning (producing industrial metals), they also build planes (famous antonov transporter)

on the black sea they have great port of Odessa

the country is devided in two parts aprox by Dnepr river - eastern part wants to integrate with russia and the western part wants to integrate with EU

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 08:14 | Link to Comment Puppet Hegemon
Puppet Hegemon's picture

Where did you get the 50% figure from? There are loads of people from Crimea and Eastern Ukraine protesting against government on the Maidan these days.

Your moronity about "stolen lands" shows that your knowlege of Ukrainian history doesn't go deeper than 60 years.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 22:50 | Link to Comment Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

Sounds like you know a lot more about what is happening there than I do. And I can't find any fault with your analysis of current events. My question is - where are the men who are so tired of the shit they will die stopping it?

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 22:39 | Link to Comment Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Hmmm. Sounds like the night all across America when an assault coordinated from the White House was launched to destroy and break up very occupy wall-street protest camp in America. Yes, that is a true story. So how would Obama and Congress react if we went back to the streets in America? I can tell you how, just like the police thugs of Ukraine. All cop thugs are alike. The beat, kick and thrash honest people for a pay check and a slap on the back by the powers that be.

You think it can't happen here. For fuck's sake, it already has. It is just that government and the media have buried the story into the Orwellian memory hole.

How many people were beaten, sprayed whith chemicals, kicked, batoned, knocked sensless, dragged through the streets by armies of uniformed thugs? Ukraine, America. Please show me the difference.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:14 | Link to Comment Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

Occupy initially seemed to be a concoction of the left. And I do not like the current left because they are a bunch of statists. However, subscribing to the "enemy of my enemy" concept I wanted to find common cause but I had to wait long to find when they were actually against my enemy. They blew their nut on NWO, Blue Team/Red Team smokescreens and by the time they said something I agreed with I no longer trusted them.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:46 | Link to Comment Stock Jobber
Stock Jobber's picture

Some cops are thugs, most are not.  If you want to see thugs, try living in a world without cops.  

Speaking of thugs - the occupy crowds were full of them.  They stand for nothing.  They stand *against* everything.  They aren't even anarchists.  They are nihilists.  They openly advocate for aggression and violence in service of no cause and no principle.  They are the future brownshirts of America.

And Obama loved them.  Your theory that he ordered them to be disbanded is a joke.  They were disbanded because they were a lawless and crime-ridden mob.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 01:27 | Link to Comment ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

I'd take a world without cops any day.... Only Bitchez think like that.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 22:45 | Link to Comment are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

I have been in the Ukraine 5 times and have been impressed with the people. But I get the impression that its political class is selfish and corupt to a point that is hard to relate to, even after getting used to Obama.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 22:52 | Link to Comment Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

-Ukrainian people are sick of the corruption and lawlessness of their government. Neither party in Ukraine is anything but second rate gangsters. People are sick of it. The western part thinks they can get the EU to force a clean government in Ukraine. That is a tall order. I wish them luck. The Eastern Ukraine will take up arms if forced to join the EU. That is a little known fact. God Bless them too.

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:45 | Link to Comment quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

If you like your Stihl or Poulan Pro, you can keep your Stihl or Poulan Pro

Tue, 12/10/2013 - 23:49 | Link to Comment x-moose
x-moose's picture

Jack, The Eastern part, you say disapproves of the EU, actually disapproves of anything except quite mythical bologna sausage of the Soviet times, that theoretically went for 0.22 soviet ruble/kg ($0.02/lb at the going black market rate of the time), but was in fact absent from stores except on major holidays. Recent proliferation of family sized basement based coal mines points to the true state of that sorry region. Ukraine needs to seize this opportunity to shake off the thuggery gang of the oligarch clique, all not too surprisingly wielding the Promised land admittance papers.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 05:51 | Link to Comment SmittyinLA
SmittyinLA's picture

The Ukraine occupy movement us all hype and us media bullshit, the occupiers are idiot dupes like in the US, the govt can do nothing and let these loser idiots freeze to death and nobody would give a rats ass.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 08:04 | Link to Comment Puppet Hegemon
Puppet Hegemon's picture

Ukrainian protests have nothing in common with occupy movement.

Wed, 12/11/2013 - 23:56 | Link to Comment bilejones
bilejones's picture

Looks like the Banksters are desperate for one more economy to loot.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!