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Two-Thirds Say American Dream Is Over
A stunning 64% of American say the US no longer offers everyone an equal chance of 'getting ahead', according to a new poll by Bloomberg. The widening gap between rich and poor - as we have previously noted as wide as during the roaring 20s - has eroded faith in the American dream. The lack of faith, Bloomberg reports, is especially pronounced among those making less than $50,000 a year with 73% of those saying the economy is unfair. As class warfare is stoked, by none other than the President himself in his recent speech, noting economic trends have “jeopardized middle-class America’s basic bargain, that if you work hard, you have a chance to get ahead," man-of-the-year Pope Francis recently commented, "such an economy kills."
Inequality wider than during the Roaring 20s...
“Everyone on both sides of the aisle talks about the American dream,” says Sekac. “Right now, that’s not something everyone in this country can aspire to.”
Still, respondents are almost evenly split on the need for government action to narrow the income gap: 45 percent say new policies are needed, while 46 percent say it would be better to allow the market to operate freely even if the gap gets wider.
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“More people who are of color get opportunities now than they did,” but a lack of education holds too many back, says David Bakker, 56, a model-train builder in Baltimore.
In the Bloomberg poll, 68 percent of Americans say the income gap is growing, while 18 percent say it is unchanged and 10 percent say it’s shrinking.
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While the public is divided over whether the government should take steps to close the income gap, support for greater action is strongest among lower-income Americans, with 52 percent saying officials should do something and 35 percent putting their faith in the market.
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“The government keeps taking and taking and taking from us,” she says. “Eventually, people are going to strike back.”
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By 56 percent to 35 percent, they endorse [The Pope's] criticism of “trickle-down” economics, which provides tax cuts for the wealthy as a means to spur job growth. And 66 percent say they have a favorable view of the pontiff compared with just 13 percent who view him unfavorably.
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“If we don’t address it, it’ll just continue to deteriorate, the gap will just continue to get bigger,” says Marini. “And who knows what that will lead to in 10 or 15 years? Social unrest? Economic unrest?”
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The starving will continue until morale improves.
The other 1/3 was watching reruns of American Idle.
Equal CHANCE of getting ahead? What is this, LOTTO?
In my experience, hard work, desire, and intelligence are what get you ahead in life, not chance.
Two thirds of Americans can't read at a high school level. Dreams are fueled by thoughts. "New' thoughts are obtained from reading. Seasame Street reading skills gets you to McDonald's.
Most class warfare is stoked by the succession of articles on ZH pointing out the 1%, 0.1%, etc.
Don't worry, it's going to get much worse:
http://americandictators.blogspot.com/2013/12/new-world-order-dead-ahead...
Lloyd has many characteristics, but he isn't lazy, complacent, or ignorant, and he didn't get ahead because of chance.
The CHANCES are that skipping class to smoke a joint will have consequences.
George Carlin wins again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
The American dream is turning into a nightmare.
To succeed nowadays, you need to get a basic education at least chew gum and walk at the same time and act as a fortune hunter. Smell the opportunity, chase the opportunity and leave electronic games and other digital distractions behind (computer excluded as is the best tool available for success).
The story I have that demonstrates that is of a friend who approached a CRE magnet at a porsche dealership and asked him if he wanted someone with an IQ of 140 to work for him. The CRE guy not getting the drift right away said: "If you know someone with an IQ of 140, I will hire him on the spot". He was hired on the spot.
You want to get ahead in amerika? do what the big boys do...(like that corner-cutting kike, Blankfiend)
Cheat.
and "work hard™" at it...Cheat with all your amoral might!
This will win you plaudits among a certain sub-set of ZHers
HH no offense but you are going off the rails here.
Sorry, I appreciate where you came from, and it illustrates that it is possible. You are the exception. You gotta be absolutely kididng me if you believe that what you know matters more than who you know.
No offense taken, or intended, but we are not arguing that.
I am arguing that, on average, in my experience, hard work, desire, and intelligence have more to do with getting ahead than chance.
Chance always favors the prepared. I'm starting to think your moniker should be "obvious man".
I agree it is obvious, but I didn't write the story.
I think people are going off on the wrong definition of 'getting ahead' here.
This is the working definiton of 'getting ahead,' as far as I was aware. Does your stance still stand, HH?
No one can ever offer an "equal" chance to get ahead... we're born with core competencies and those often continue throughout the remainder of our lives. It is possible to overcome some things through hard work, but intelligence is largely a pre-determined issue... which also tends to dictate wisdom, although not necessarily. Our society has become one giant trap for the unweary, with a single misstep tending to create a glass ceiling over at least one generation of our family.
In the end, I think the premise of the quote is completely misplaced... as the united states never offered everyone an equal chance of getting ahead. This is just a sales pitch.
I think the word "chance" is being used here as meaning "opportunity," not "luck."
"I have a chance (opportunity) to win that big contract" versus "I have a chance to win the lotto."
But it does sound worse when you use the "luck" definition in this story. When you replace that with "opportunity," then the story is pointing out that people don't feel they have the same upward mobility these days, which I'm pretty sure is the whole point of the story.
This is my reading as well.
fair enough.
Right on. Who you know gets you to the table. Ability is the closer and long term marker of success. Well unless you are in government then all the rules are off. Luck though buries them all, I'll take that any day of the week.
It is who you know that gets you ahead. If you're born in the ghetto, you're fucked. If you're born in the country, you're fucked. If you're born in the Hampton's, you win. Same way it's always been.
Kind of... There is a mix of born into privilege, born into intelligence/personality, and then effort to achieve. One might even argue that the desire to improve/create/produce is, in the largest part, something we're born with... However, being born anywhere isn't necessarily a death sentence nor does it place a permanent glass ceiling over one's head... It's just an extra ball and chain tied to your ankle... and probably places you into many circumstances that could further limit your upward mobility.
The flip side is that for every person born into money, you're probably much more likely to be a dumbass spendthrift... especially the further away you get from the person who actually produced the wealth. So, the privilege only lasts as long as someone else's production picks up the tab... hope those bears never have to leave the dump. Within a few generations, the money (regardless of how large of a pile there was to start) is usually all gone.
I was born in the country and do not consider myself fucked. I will stand toe-to-toe so to speak with any man here. I know a lot of people in a similar situation. I agree with you on the ghetto.
That is true. But due to the enormous amounts of malinvestment, be careful of who/what you are working for, regardless.
lol
Sorry HH, being jewish and going to Harvard are "Chance" with a capital C. Yes, I'm sure he worked hard, all zionists do. However, he also benefitted from inside information, law writen to exploit the other 99% and the knowledge he will never be incarcerated, regardless of the crimes, as long as he plays along.
Barriers to entry are not chance and the lack of true integrity and decency exhibited by all zionists and .01%'ers flies in the face of their "hard" work.
The reason the dream is dead, is it never existed to begin with. It was a marketing ploy to advance consumerism, credit and control. Now, that we can no longer afford it, the realization is setting in. Having been able to deduce this and arrayed your life differently is commendable, but it ignores the realities faced by common people of average ability dependent on the leadership of others.
Calling people complacent in general is bias, pure and simple. Calling people ignorant, knowing the education system conspires to achieve this very end, is a special kind of complicity.
Not everyone seeks to be rich, but that does not mean they should be denied the ability to live a decent life. The USA, in conjunction with other western democracies and the zionists WORK to enslave us all and they have succeeded. This has NOTHING to do with work ethic, education, intelligence nor ability.
Get off your high horse...
I cannot argue against you, if that is your premise.
Stop studying kids, and start rubbing that lucky rabbit's foot!
Playing the grammer nazi as an argument? Then adding such a simple riposte? What an intellectual coward. You can hand it out, but not take it.
I disagree with your premise, not your grammar.
Please, feel free to argue your premise. If you convince me, then we can discuss the merits of your conclusions.
In addition...
You might want to spend some time reviewing this list of fallacies, because I am not arguing that.
Then state your disagreement, unless you feel being born within an ethnic group of such a small percentage in a country where they execise so much control does not constitute chance.
If you are convinced? You must think you're an intellectual standard. I don't stoop to such meager goals.
As for your edit, you might want to support your premise. Fallacies? This will be rich.
Please, show me where, exactly, I argued that either 1) everyone seeks to be rich, or 2) that does mean they should be denied the ability to live a decent life.
In addition...
You might want to spend some time reviewing this list of fallacies, because I am not arguing that.
YOU, referred to these as a list of fallacies, therefore, I asked you to defend your premise. You have failed to do that, but you have added a definition of a red herring and then were kind enough to provide an example.
I'm not sure it was your intention, but it is pretty funny all the same.
Now, if you want to hold up a zionist, criminal abomination as a fine example of hard work, intelligence and perserverance, go ahead, but be prepared for the consequences. If you want to flaunt your arrogance over the complexity of life, go ahead, but a defense of your small mindedness may be required.
It is easy, when one has acquired a certain level of success, especially from humble beginnings, to attribute it to a set of qualities they admire. I think the phrase that might help the most here is: "But for the grace of God go I ". You do put some stock in this philosophy?
Just because you have achieved something precious does not imply it is available to everyone through the same methodology. Having a degree of emphathy tempers arrogance and reminds us that life is not so easy for everyone else. It begats charity.
Our humanity is not measured by how we reward success, but how we deal with failure.
Buying off most of DC as well as the SEC probably did not hurt his chances either....
@HH sounds like you are a close associate of Lloyd
.
Lloyd Blankfein is a jew.
No Lloyd isnt lazy or ignorant. He's a thief. That's how he got ahead.
Is that really the comparison you want to use?
@HH Yea sure. I worked my arse off as a Herbalife distributor an got nothing but a garage full of stock. I didn't get a damn thing for my hard work and imagination. I have the right to a reasonable salary and pension just like anybody else and I don't need people like you lecturing me on how I need to 'be productive' and 'create value for others'.
Where have yoou been MDB?
I have missed all the blood letting!
MDB, so you lost this time, try again, this time work smarter not harder!
Last I checked the American dream is alive, although the progressives, such as yourself are ruining it day by day.
Once we get rid of people like you from power, the better, and we can heal the nation.
Class warfare is a commie tacktic, fuck them!
MDB it was a nice surprise to see you being a bit humble in a post.
With that said, go fuck yourself.
LOL, good one Fonz...will you autograph my leather jacket?
I've been on ZH for only a short time, and you are one of the sane characters here!
The propaganda in America is worrisome, this admin has stoked hatred whereever they can...we need to find a way to impeach the imposter in the WH and throw all the croney progressives out of power EVERYWHERE!!!
a tad down on your "luck", hey it will get better-just learn from your mistakes and like HH says apply that.
My note of x factor in success: that ability to0 keep going(like a navy seal) when all other humans give up.
and NOBODY explains that very well, because most don't even know what that is...
either you got it(very few do) or you don't (the majority)
And this with the combination of common sense and ability to "read" fellow humans(and game them) will make you the next Loyd
Blankenstein
Life is a jungle full of traps, pitfalls and landmines. Some people have a guided tour through the safe zone and others have to hack their way through unassisted. Hard work will only get you so far, at some point you need a little luck to be in the right place at the right time. If you wind up in the wrong place at the wrong time, a car wreck caused by some idiot could wreck your legs or your back. Hard work isn't going to overcome that.
I know a woman, actually a former squid, that is a perfect example of hard work overcoming that exact situation, as well as many other hurdles.
Of course there was no luck involved right? And I'm sure she paid all her medical bills out of her own pocket? Give me a break.
Have you considered Amway?
MDB is the best satire on the internet.
Of course it is a dream...
It is a surrealistic nightmare where even highly educated professionals cannot find and keep jobs in their field due to offshoring and H1 visas importing cheap labor for jobs that must be done on-shore.
Kids today can only dream of the life their parents and grandparents once knew and there appears to be nothing on the horizon to change that reality for today's youth. Instead of inheriting a bright future, today's kids are inheriting the debt and bills from preceding generations with no realistic means of supporting themselves much less the debts of their parents.
Sad, but that's my $0.02 on the view from the nosebleed seats.
Well, you can thank the progressive azzhats starting with Teddy R and forward for the nightmare we now see!
yea, policy does mater...
fwd 60 years of "reaping the harvest" Or "raping" the harvest-lol'g=fuckers...
No doubt that the people who believe the American Dream is over probably voted for an incumbent.
America is losing its way folks. I remember when average Americans put country ahead of personal satisfaction and supported our military, but those days are over. Today's me-first generation has forgoten what it means to serve your country and our youth are a disgrace to the flag. Some of these little rascals are even railing against social security and state pensions for the generation that raised them and built this country. Young people in this country need to be taught a lesson about respect and personal responsibility.
The country, the Constitution and the American Dream were built long before the baby boomers' parents began stomping all over the world and building 1,700 offshore military bases to protect oil and drug shipments.
"...the baby boomers' parents..."
The Greatest Generation? Say it ain't so, Joe.
Constitution, what's that, and is it important?
-Current Generation
The current generation isn't to blame for the failure of the Constitution. Someone further upstream wasn't vigilant.
Personal responsibility like saving for your own retirement and health care, instead of expecting SS and Medicare Ponzi payments?
DON'T tell ME that I don't deserve a solid pension after 20 YEARS' contribution to this country in the police force. Do you have ANY idea what I've been through? I've worked for that pension and there's nothing you little rascals can do to take it away from me.
There are 7 billion people on the planet.
If every American, including me, died, the planet would still be incredibly over-populated.
Let's compromise. Raise the age for pensions, SS, Medicare etc. to 95.
You bought in to a ponzi sceme and have a right to be upset at the blatant fraud. However, you misdirect your anger towards the youth who are well-informed enough to not participate. The ones you should be angry with are those who lied to you and said that the system would still be there for you when you got older. It was never designed for that. Sorry you were misled.
Most people work 40 or more... and get what they saved... if Wall Street didn't steal it from them.
DON'T tell ME that I don't deserve a solid pension after 20 YEARS' contribution to this country in the police force.
Sorry Captain Clueless - here's a little math lesson for ya.
My brother, Lt. State Police, 25 yrs. Retired the day he turned 50.
Average salary - $62,000.
Final Salary - $145,000.
His pension contribution ~8%/ year = $4,960/yr for a TOTAL of $124,000.
His pension is 80% of his final salary = $116,000/year with 3% COLA raises each year.
After 1.5 year his TOTAL contribution towards his retirment will be paid back to him in full. The remainning, say 30 years of his life he will collect (not including the free healtcare for his whole family) nearly $3,500,000.00.
Go fuck yourself.
It never occurs to these boomers that we who work in the private sector provide the taxes for their retirement. Most of us are shat on every day and have no guaranteed employment. Most of us get no retirement benefits at all. We must all work until we drop dead. Yet most baby boomer retirees I know retire after 25-35 years and live off the taxpayers for the same amount of time. And the boomers see nothing wrong with that. they go on and on about how we should sacrifice for them, how it is we who are lazy. It's surreal.
I'm not saying this situation is all the boomers' fault, just that they cannot see their own contributions to this situation. Who raised their "spoiled" and "bratty" children? No one. Boomers passed that responsibility onto the TV and the government schools. And now they complain about the crummy results.
As a part of the me-first generation, and a former US Marine, I can tell you there is no honor in spilling blood for corporate greed. As you wave your flag, be sure you are clear what it stands for.
-Smedley Butler
Major General, USMC, Ret.
You got that right. '87-'92 jew-rah
Is that you MDB?
Is this me?
@BP You don't do much critical thinking for your self, do you?
One of the single dumbest comments in this thread. The overwhelming problem in our country is a gross overinvestment in military and overseas military expenditures and a gross over investment in our elderly vs things needed to maintain and ensure future economic growth.
This is the kind of nonsensical stupidity you hear from most Boomers including those on the left or right.
A better word would have been possibility. For many people, however, hard work, desire and intelligence have NOTHING to do with success.
In my experience, hard work, desire, and intelligence are what get you ahead in life, not chance...
and good lobbyists......of course being born wealthy helps too......being able to write the laws in your favour also a bonus....big lawyers too that can either sue the crap out of you, patent farm, predatory lending......
To make a statement such as your ignores the reality that surrounds you. Many people work hard and get nowhere, many people work hard and get a little ahead, but how much further ahead would they be without the crony headwinds?
Hard work, desire, intelligence certainly do help. I can make a comfortable living (~250K$) annually after graduating from atop 10 Med school in my early 20's, and then a graduate degree. Trained for 10 years (day and frequently night) and boarded in 3 specialties. Worked hard. Saved a life here and there, extended a few, comforted many. No complaints. But what is it that allows those doing "god's work" to be rewarded at a 20X or greater premium to a retail wage earner such as myself; albeit with 15 years of qualifying education and training? Do they work harder? Their nights sacrificed to lobbying to codify a system that allows it to prosper? It won't be me with a pitchfork in the streets but I can see it coming (and I'll do what I can to care for both sides. It's my duty. But I can see the disparity growing- we're not all in this together unfortunately.
Doc, sounds like you suffer from the fallacy of "i put in my dues in this education thing and really tried really hard, therefore I ought to be afforded X." This is the glory of markets... What if I told you I could forego school altogether and start making $150k/yr doing HVAC right now (a ton of which is warm cash money)? You realize that you, even with your more relatively modest income, are going to be on the banksters' side when the pitchforks hit the streets (the mob will pick your side for you, btw). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory
If you're asking for fairness, then life has nothing to offer you... be happy for the work ethic and intelligence that got you where you are, as they were each likely derived before the age of reason.
Good comments; good link. And my compensation is not commensurate with my education or training (which is poorly compensated). But I make enough and I like what I do. I'm respected and programmed from an early age to not make decisions based on the economic implications, but to offer advice based on maximizing health and longevity.
I'm no mid-level banker but I'm fine... no regrets! But what do we do to avoid the fraying social fabric and the pitchforks? We all will regret it in the end if the infrastructure crumbles. No one to tend your roses or deliver your baubles by UPS or to scrub you toilets or bus you dishes. Those that contributed to an unsustainable system may come to recognize and regret. Unimpeded greed with utterly no consideration for the social compact may destroy capitalism as I've known it in my lifetime.
I have benefitted from a life in the Pax Americana. I have made my way to my current station swirling up from the underclass on a tide of opportunity and social engineering that identified talent and talent alone. It wasn't birthrank or class or access to capital that opened the door. And now, so few doors. I wish we had a small sense of the collective; that as a whole we could, in some ways, be greater that the sum of the individual parts. Alas the system will be reset; profound changes are coming that none of us can comprehend.
H_H said:
I used to believe that as well. It made me wonder about people that I knew who were intelligent and hard working, yet still never got any further ahead in life than others I knew who were less intelligent and less motivated.
After reading Taleb's The Black Swan, I decided to read his earlier book Fooled By Randomness. This book provided convincing evidence that those who really get ahead in life, in addition to having the three necessary factors you mentioned above (hard work, desire, intelligence) also had the fourth factor which transforms those three into success: luck.
I have read both those books, and two more of his. I agree with most of what he proposes to explain his observations of the world around him.
However, regarding my life, for me, it comes down to this...
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Tactically speaking, I go with courage over luck to make it day to day, month to month, and year to year. Maybe, what Taleb passes off as luck, is more like courage? C'est possible.
No, it's mostly luck. There is one single observation that turns nothings into somethings... and it's that for certain things and certain people, society has skewed the risk:return metrics. Essentially, an entrepreneur is a spendthrift in a different hat. Most of the guys I know who have 8+ figure net worths are all basically spendthrifts/degenerate gamblers who kept throwing money down worthless endeavors until one hit. At some point, a prudent person would have stopped, analyzed the situation, and gone a different route... not for these guys. Our society punishes prudence. Wallstreet and big business in general is able to incredibly accurately assess risk (better ability to collect data and grease palms to mitigate risk)... for some, returns become institutionalized by society... for the rest, we manage to land on boardwalk before the next guy.
PS, if you're going to use the argument, "yeah, you're right about the outside world, but here's what's in my head and that's all I'll listen to" then I'm not sure how anyone is supposed to convince you of anything...
@T4S: That fourth factor is better described as 'persistence' ... persistence after setbacks. I've had some massive ups and downs over the decades, as have some of my most successful friends. Most self-made millionaires have had one or more dumpster-diving episodes in their past (I have!). HH's 'desire' addresses it.
The other factor is better described as 'opportunity', rather than luck. My guiding principle is a paraphrase of Napoleon Hill: "Opportunities don't come...they go! So, grab them as soon as you spot them." ... and use your 'intelligence' - which is a combination of analysis (left brain) and intuition (right brain) to sort the wheat from the chaff. 'Luck' is a very minor component ... IMO.
This post fits my comment below regarding the spendthrift/degenerate gambler nature of entrepreneurs... I think it's time for a new risk:reward balance.
And how, pray tell, do YOU intend going about changing MY "risk:reward balance"?
Might it, by any chance, involve you lobbying the State for the use of [more] regulations? Guns? Prisons?
No, I sincerely doubt that lobbying to end lobbying is going to get much traction... I'll pass on pissing into the wind.
The risk:reward balance is obnoxiously skewed due to, among other things: (1) private rewards; (2) socialized losses; (3) little or no criminal enforcement; and (4) easy/loose money... The folks who have figured this out and who have decided to act on such knowledge, have made a killing... hell, the donald was pictured in this thread... how many times has that guy filed for bankruptcy (after starting with a couple hundred mil)? Must be nice...
Yes, the way I always heard that expression was 'if you're smart and you work hard, good luck will come your way'. Funny how the luck part fell by the wayside.
There are probably hundreds of millions of Americans that think if they are smart (college education IS NOT EQUAL to smart) and they work hard (back breaking labor IS NOT EQUAL to working hard) they will get rich.
The luck portion is what's missing. It's been cronyied-legislated-scamed out of the equation.
Now, if you're not above cronyism-bribery-grifting, the American dream lives on.
I remember in my naive youth saying, "the harder you work, the luckier you'll get." What a noob.
"the harder you work at pussy, the luckier you'll get"
fixed
Funny enough, when I stopped chasing the women they came after me wondering why I didn't fawn over them like every other man. The old "if you hit it right to me I'll scoop it up, but I ain't diving for it..."
They made a movie about this... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0243736/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_21
Thats so fucking Quaint HH!
The Corrupt Rules Everything.
In my experience, hard work, desire, and intelligence are what get you ahead in life, not chance?
... and that got you onto this forum - right? Chance, everyone know's it's fair until it's not and some are just more fair than others. chin, chin...
Exactly. My guess is that 64% of American's don't know what "the American Dream" even was/is. It's the chance to make your OWN fortune, without government interference, through busting your ass and taking risks (that you had to actually suffer the consequences of if you failed). That's why people flocked to America. Not for "equality" of stuff or "equal chance". I would really like to know when the American Dream became owning stuff, like the illusion of owning a house. (It's not yours if you still have to pay someone for it every month.)
Bing bing bing! Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Hard to remember that when we are drowning in mountains of accumulated stuff.
HH - CHANCE in this context is synonymous with OPPORTUNITY. Now read it that way and perhaps it will mean something different to you. You know, like "did you get a chance to enjoy the weather this weekend?" "Nah, I was inside working on my thesis." See? Chance = opportunity. Nothing to do with luck.
Peace.
Now there's an unintended Freudian slip - American Idols was the TV show, but in truth Americans have become IDLE.
How do you know it was an unintended slip? I have several times used IDLE rather than IDOL, to make a point. Of course, with the proliferation of incorrectly spelled words - English is filled with homophones - here, who can tell?
PS - for those PC types, the word homophone has nothing to do with other homo-stuff. Not that there's anything wrong with...homophones.
Damn homos.
Or homoerectus.
That's the best kind of homo. Homo Erectus.
All Freudian slips are unintended. No need for the extra adjective.
God Bless America
Watched this on Netflix on a drunk Saturday.
A guy kills reality TV show stars and the star of a parody of The O'Reilly Factor, among others.
A stunning 64% of American say the US no longer offers everyone an equal chance of 'getting ahead'
Helps if you select your parents carefully. But how come it has taken them so long to figure that out.?
Actually, to get ahead of where you started, it may not help.
My parents are uneducated, alcoholic, and poor, which motivated me, rather than hindered me.
Nearly every trust fund kid I know ended up well behind where they started, Donald Trump being a notable exception.
HH, I agree that was true for my generation, but a lot of rules have changed since I got my start. Any honest assessment of life today indicates a lot more difficulty for the average person to climb the ladder.
Jobs were once abundant and a living wage easy to obtain. There was a healthy private sector filled with small businesses, so many of whom have closed as multi-national corporations continue to sniff out any little sector of profit and crush the little players.
There has been open class warfare for decades, warfare on the middle and lower classes. There is no legitimate debate on that subject. Even blind people can see the way our jobs have vanished as factories packed up and left to take advantage of slave labor and the ability to pollute at will. Even blind people can see how our political system has been bastadized and sold to the highest corporate/bankster driven bidders.
"Corporations are people, too, my friend."
It's a joke, and the joke is on us.
Absolutely, positively, more difficult to climb the socioeconomic ladder today. However, practically speaking, what is your choice but to try?
I'm not saying kill yourself for your corporate overlord, which is something the older generation doesn't understand about the younger generations... we've figured out that it's better to just lie in the mud, rather than pull the plow for an asshole who won't bother to even give us a carrot after the effort. People mistake this for laziness, but I think it's actually more accurately a function of incentive, the wealth gap, and a punitive economy. However, I think there is room to improve and try without particularly risking it all...
The sad reality is that for many, upward mobility is a multi-generational endeavor... which requires planning and real investment in the family structure.
If you want to just lay down and die, then fine... go ahead, but I see no reason to refrain from playing the game once we're forced onto this mudball.
There is no war on the "lower classes". They get more free shit than ever, given to them to buy their votes. The only war going on is against the middle class. The FSA is in fine shape.
You are simply listening to too much sop using anecdotal examples of trash. There is no real shortage of sorry people, but the vast majority of folks in the lower socio-economic levels would much prefer a decent job to the dole. Are there exceptions? Sure there are, but those people are not the norm.
Do you think society is doing these people a favor by providing a handout instead of a job?
I wonder what percentage of that 64% equates 'getting ahead' with 'getting more freebies using other peoples' money'?
A tiny fraction is the answer.
First, you don't "get ahead" on handouts.
Second, taking welfare, etc., is humiliating, and most want out of those programs as fast as they can.
Third, if you want to talk about using other people's money, let's talk about all the subsidies and tax breaks enjoyed by, oh, just about any group big enough to hire a lobbyst. Write off your mortgage deduction? How is that not a form of social welfare? How is it also not a subsidy for your friendly real estate broker and banker? And this is just one quick example.
It may make you feel good, superior, or whatever to beat up those who are struggling, but your perception is not based in reality for the majority of them.
The other 1/3 is brain dead.
Oh, sorry...same thing I guess...
No they are posting I LOVE OBAMA slogans everywhere along with I LOVE OBAMACARE, I LOVE WARS OBAMA GETS US INTO, OBAMA HAS DONE WONDERS WITH THE ECONOMY, OBAMA SAYS UNEMPLOYMENT HAS GONE DOWN, EVERY BLACK CHILD LOOKS JUST LIKE HE COULD BE OBAMAS SON, SOME ONE POSTED A GOOD STORY ABOUT OBAMACARE!
I figure I am just one condo flip away from the American Dream. If I clear $25 K then I can buy a used BMW and have enough for first and last at a luxury 1 bedroom apt.
The other third (or is that terd!)
Work for Government
The widening gap between rich and poor - as we have previously noted as wide as during the roaring 20s - has eroded faith in the American dream.
Uh... I think that's the Socialist dream.
Since when is the "American Dream" about a narrow gap between rich and poor?
I'm not saying this dispersion isn't symptomatic of larger problems but all by itself it's a red herring...and a prayer to Obama.
Upward economic mobility = widing wealth gap by definition - especially if you keep reloading the left-hand side of the chart with near-destitute immigrants each year. If everyone in the US made 5% more every year without fail, the gap would get wider every year too.
Do the math.
I'll grant that the new American dream, for the top and the bottom, is to live on someone else's dime.
You said it. It's now the American nightmare.
new Mercury
Your presumed disconnect between wealth and power, and between property and control is remarkable.
The myth that exorbitant wealth is deserved is a leftover from when kings ruled by "divine" right.
The system cannot be changed without making inroads into the intertwined power and property rights of the exorbitantly wealthy.
Institutions from the media to the military are bent to serve the goals of securing resources, controlling markets, and monopolizing finances - all aimed to benefit mega-corporations and those who head them.
The design of the laws enacted in the last 100 years is neither an accident nor a mistake made by those who self-servingly wrote them.
I'm not new here thank you.
Although this country has some major problems with crony-capitalism and governmenet overreach I assure you that making "inroads" into private property rights is not the solution.
Again Mercury,
you have a disconnect if you think no laws concerning the property of corporations and others need be changed,
or that no changes will make or need make any inroads into their privilege and power.
Those are really anti-trust, regulatory capture and graft issues not private property rights issues per se.
Exactly... The market participants ought to hate the neutral regulator, but not because the regulator directly taxes their production... instead, it ought to be because the regulator forces them to compete and they steal each others' profits. This is the sole function of government's invasion into the market...
His issues aren't with property rights per se, they're with the inevitable corruption of the regulator. Property rights are there to protect individuals, regardless of how meek.
Mercury,
You are trying to make a distinction without a difference.
Laws about taxes, pollution, inheritance, fraud, eminent domain, patents, incorporation, worker safety, discrimination, privacy, unionization, lobbying, lawsuits, water and drilling, and price-fixing are all about property.
You may claim they are only “regulations”, having nothing to do with “property rights”, but that does not make it so.
Without society’s laws, “property rights” exist only in the imagination.
While I understand what he said, he definitely didn't understand your point.
All people want or expect is a fair shake in life and to not have their hard earned money stolen and given away to someone else. The creeping socialist and fascist American nightmare (whichever term you prefer) is killing off any hope for many to succeed and prosper.
Example? A friend of mine started a new business out of his gararge making and selling fishing lures. An IRS guy showed up unannounced at his door within months of starting wanting to know what was going on. I shit you not.
Bay of Pigs: ...and more in the works... http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article43401.html
Did he actually verify it was a bona-fide IRS agent? I'd have shown his ass the door... and wait for the audit letter... maybe given him a couple lures and business cards to take back to the office. Then scamper around make sure all my paperwork is in order for when the next 30 agents bust through the door.
Did he contribute to any republicans by chance?
Yes Macho, he was a real IRS guy. Had to drive from Spokane to Pt Angeles to "audit" his books and "see if all his papers were in order".
I wish I was joking. This country is sinking fast...
The American dream for the bottom 90% has been dead for decades:
Those at the bottom of the economic ladder have suffered the most: income for the bottom 90 percent of Americans rose just $59 from 1966 to 2011, adjusted for inflation.
So true, I remember those days when I had cash in my pocket, now I have Gold !
In the USA, it is a constant cycle, for those willing to work hard, and get an education or trade! If you do those, you won't be poor! The problem is all the parasites sucking off the govt teet...
The Dream is not dead (yet), but the progressives among us are fighting hard to KILL IT!!!!
There is no such thing as a Utopia, get over yourselves progressives...
Myabe the Federal Reserve should stop printing 85B a month to bail out TBTF?
Can they do that?
Wouldn't you just love to be able to see what the results would have been if there was no fucking TARP....
Deflation..followed by organic growth. Krugman would have ripped his beard off.
Wouldn't have been much different. Couple more banks would have closed but for the most part it would have remained business as usual. Those fuckers have hordes that would have held them over. They just pulled extra bonuses out of our asses. The money printing was coming either way, 08 was just a nice excuse to speed it up.
85B per month is quite likely a serious understatement
(not that the unaudited Fed would lie about anything)
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article43438.html
Maybe we should give Capitalism a try.
A Repulblic.....if you can keep it. - Benjamin Franklin
The cool thing about a Repulblic is you can do anything you want....including failure......no matter how big you are.
yea as the charts shows including or excluding capital gains answers all the questions....
the economy isnt fair
i dont even.......
and anyway, who gives a $hit about the income gap.
isnt there a saying, old as the hills....something about the Jones' and the pace inwhich they travel
I recall a study from about 10 years ago comparing responses from Norway and USA. something to the effect of
would you rather have (A) two TVs, but everyone else has three, or (B) only one TV, but so does everyone else.
Norwegians pick (a)
Americans pick (b)
this is why we cant have nice things
Yet norway is one of the countries that have recently passed the us in intergenerational mobility.
One third say the nightmare has only just begun.
You mean it was only a dream !?!
Can I wake up now.
Its fullon class warefare out there.....and Barry don't wanna talk about it!
The middle class are there to prop up the upper class, while the lower class is there to scare the shit out of the middle class.
You can't buy most of your stuff when it's made with cheap foreign labor and expect our labor to prosper. Our standard of living is going to resemble China and India in coming years; has to? America is no longer a geographical area but rather a personal ideology.
To pacify people the government for now put peiople on Social Security Disability and welfare. Later it get minimized.
People won't protest while they can live and eat off the government. Even give them cell phones.
Our standard of living is going to resemble China and India in coming years
you wish
The Fed's PhDs will keep beating down the small people. The banksters and Wall Street rule the government.
It means more debt slavery for the citizens.
These polls are useless: this is the exact same thing "people" were saying in the Seventies: everything sucks, America is in decline, we've all lost our way, blah, blah, blah...
Turns out they were right. The next 30+ years consisted of borrowing America's way to prosperity. It was an illusion, and has led us here. Notice how the chart starts to go straight up around 1980? Yeah the middle class felt richer in the 80's and 90's, but the reality is that they were living on the backs of today's taxpayer via massive deficit spending that has consistently accelerated since then, their artificially rising stock portfolios and housing bubbles. All brought to you by the Fed. And notice what the chart did around 1987 when Greenie came on board.
No, this is not a Team statement. Both Teams decided the model for prosperity was borrowing and spending and printing. And here we are.
The baby boomers' dogmatic, statist approach to life won't help, either.
They will gladly join the government in telling us to STFU, in exchange for their precious fiat handouts.
Yea seems they were right.
" while 46 percent say it would be better to allow the market to operate freely even if the gap gets wider."
Right. Just like it's free now.
In the past, this kind of wealth disparity has not turned out well for the guys at the top. It tends to equalize down after the sheeple have finally had enough. Then again, the oligarchs didn't have Homeland Security, drones, militarized police, NSA, cable news, Kardashians, and so forth in the past. This could go on for a while.
History is just a loose glimpse into our future... As best I can tell there isn't a mandatory end to virtually any control structure... they all tend to crash and burn because of bureaucratic inefficiency (expanding beyond the ability to administer). Huxley was right I believe... one day, most people will walk willingly into the chains of bondage for a mere pittance... although, we aren't there yet and won't be for quite a few generations... hopefully never, but I doubt it.