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Russia's Largest Bank Proposes Bitcoin Alternative
Hot on the heels of JPMorgan's "web cash" developments in the virtual currency arena, the CEO of Russia largest bank - Sberbank - appears to be looking for alternatives...
- *SBERBANK CEO GREF SAYS FUTURE BELONGS TO VIRTUAL CURRENCIES
- *GREF SAYS DEVELOPMENT OF VIRTUAL CURRENCIES 'CAN'T BE STOPPED'
- *SBERBANK CEO CALLS FOR GREATER REGULATION OF VIRTUAL CURRENCIES
- *SBERBANK MAY FORM OWN VIRTUAL CURRENCY ON BASIS OF YANDEX MONEY
When a pseudonymous 'Japanese' coder creates a crypto-currency that gains acceptance among thousands of vendors, it's dismissed by the powers-that-be and called a ponzi scheme by the MSM. One wonders what happens when the largest banks of the US and Russia sanction the 'idea' of a decentralized, unregulated, 'money' transfer system.
Via Bloomberg,
“We are at a new stage of technological development. I can’t imagine how it can be stopped,” Sberbank CEO Herman Gref tells reporters in Moscow.
Gref says virtual currencies need greater regulation
“These experiments must end in one or two crashes” before virtual currencies become firmly established, Gref says
Says Yandex Money isn’t “a currency but it’s a first step in that direction”
Of course, the difference is - the banks want to own it...
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Hear ya on taking "bad risks". However calculated risks with money one can afford to lose without being ruined is another story. As always DYODD. Weigh the evidence carefully, make up your own mind and keep it open.
As far as PMs and crypto's being natural allies, perhaps it would have been clearer to have made the point that bitcoin in particular (as some od the cryptos are inflationary) and a strict gold standard are deflationary. In a post industrial world of scarce resources this is not necessarily a bad thing. People will tend to save rather than consume if the value of their money increases with time.(or at least consume more mindfully than is currently the case) This is anathema to the debt based fiat ponzi world we live in.
Also I do somewhat appreciate the PM holder animosity in that bitcoin is sucking investment dollars that could otherwise going to PMs. To which I would say look at the bigger picture. As one wag put it: "bitcoin throws sand in the gears" of the present central bank driven fiat monetary system. I'm all for that - the current system is completely corrupt and unsustainable. In 10 years it will only be about real stuff that holds REAL VALUE.
As to the paranoia regarding the NSA? IMHO, it is just that - paranoia. Sure they have big budgets and power, but "all-powerful"? Meh - more likely Wizard of Oz limited powerful. Also useful for appearances to keep the masses in their place - at least until the proles wake up and discover that they are not as powerless as they imagined.
As Snowden has pointed out, good encryption works. Sure sometimes the spooks do have the upper hand in technology, but eventually the pendulum swings back the other way. Cryptography -vs- cryptanalysis is an evolutionary arms race. Add in distrubuted networked systems consisting of millions of compute nodes with enormous yet diffuse power - things get interesting in a hurry. And if TPTB really want to get you they will - at a cost. Also the bigger the state the greater the unsustainable maintenance cost. ("friction")
Hey PeakOil, my story matches your very closely. Heard about Bitcoin very early on and I said, "Cool idea, hope it works". It came back up on my radar after the Cyprus crisis so I sat down, took a closer look at it, and liked what I saw.
< ---- One trick pony
< ---- Sage of all matters financial
Fonestar is a.....
It's remarkable that every single Bit Coiner got the Memo 1st about this article and showed up in force.
Now stop -1 everyone instantly when an article does'nt go your way.
And you know this how?
It is well know that banks have wanted to get rid of hard currency and go digital. It allows them and the government to track currency, and thus reduce the black market. Yea, I know you have bought into the anonymous bitcoin thought. And the NSA, which doesn't track anyone isn't tracking digital currencies.
They do not want to own it. They want to create their own crypto currency, to compete against bitcoin.
They want to set up toll booths, somehow. Banks realize they have been caught off-guard by Bitcoin and are desperate to stay relevant going forward.
Other organizations trying to co-opt the design isn't unexpected. As others have said, it only lends legitimacy to the "prime mover" that is Bitcoin. They'll futz around and see if they can top the Canadian "Mint Chip" effort, which by all accounts means getting at least ONE person to use it - lol - and they'll discover that issuing your own currency is easy, its getting people to USE it that is difficult.
I look forward to the many hilarious reports of how this initiative was just "experimental" and wasn't intended to do anything, you know, the standard excuses when something a government tries fails. Best of luck! They'll need it.
nobody can be trusted. eventually it will be back to the barter system.
And that is what is great about Bitcoin. It doesn't require human trust.
bullshit
No, not bullshit.
LEARN!
As funds have been stolen, how can trust not be applicable?
Crime is EVERYWHERE on this planet.
The Fiat you're defending steals money purposely, every day. Bank robbers of several types abound... but that's no worry to you. A couple of thieves in the BTC arena - that you freak out about.
FUD does not become you.
This issue has been covered many times on ZH. If you leave gold in a safe deposit box, or at home in a safe, or with a relative or in a suitcase on the street, then your gold can be stolen. But you dont blame the gold right? One needs to take responsibility for the safety of their own stuff. Same with bitcoin.
yo dr zaius, francis has a holiday wish for you.....
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-12/guest-post-social-security-syst...
this place isnt the same without him...
glad you keep his memory alive
Everything requires trust. Otherwise there could be no prolonged commerce, bitcoin or not.
LEARN
yes, unlearn what you have learned. Dumb yourself down. Move back in with your parents and start playing world of warcraft now. Only then will you understand the bitcoin network and be competent enought to handle the sword of staoshi!
How does Bitcoin require human trust assuming you manage your own wallet and know what you're doing?
Okay, I will try and address this in a clear and non-inflamatory manner.
As a store of labor, bitcoin does not really require trust, as you are only dealing with yourself, and the hope/thought/belief that the stored value will not decrease over the time you are using bitcoins to store said value.
As for trade, bitcoin requires enormous trust. And that trust has to be conveyed to all you wish to deal with. Trust that accepting this "coin," which represents time and energy (like a PM does) really does represent time and energy for one, and this is probably the largest hurdle. You must convince another, who may have what you want, but have no idea of algorithms, ASICs, open source code, etc, that what a bitcoin represents is actually stored labor.
Toss in the current speculatory swings of bitcoin and I do not think you can make that argument. Until items are not only traded for bitcoins but PRICED in bitcoins, it is just another form of electronic payment. One that has little recourse in the courts due to the complex nature of the bitcoin itself.
In short, a tough sell for commerce.
pods
"Trust that accepting this "coin," which represents time and energy (like a PM does) really does represent time and energy for one, and this is probably the largest hurdle."
The largest hurdle is to get people to understand that money is "a promise to complete a trade". A buggy whip represents "time and energy" ... but is essentially worthless ... very difficult to barter with for a loaf of bread ... or a car payment.
"The largest hurdle is to get people to understand that money is "a promise to complete a trade"."
Sadly, it seems that the majority of people can't even understand that you cannot get out of debt by creating more debt. Yes! That's a very complete definition of the problem right there, an indictment of that which the majority (of the un-educated) goes counter to, yet, it fails.
And then even the more enlightened folks, such as those here on ZH, can't get their heads around the simple fact that you cannot have perpetual growth on a finite planet. I believe that this issue dwarfs the currency issue, but, that's just how I see it...
"Sadly, it seems that the majority of people can't even understand that you cannot get out of debt by creating more debt. Yes! That's a very complete definition of the problem right there, an indictment of that which the majority (of the un-educated) goes counter to, yet, it fails."
Actually you can get out of debt by creating more debt. But in more cases doing so is "throwing good money after bad". Debt is an "undelivered promise to complete a trade". A person with a dental degree setting up a new practice promises to pay for his equipment with monthly payments. It's not a high risk trading promise. Alternately, a graduate in archeology promising to deliver riches from Geraldo's crypt is a higher risk promise.
What is relevant is track record in delivering on trading promises. Most dental school graduates deliver on their promises. All governments default on their promises. It all comes down to the nature of the debt and the track record of the debtor. It's an actuarial exercise.
The MOE is created by traders making trading promises. it is crucial to preserve the integrity of the Medium of Exchange (MOE). This means guaranteeing that inflation of the MOE is zero all the time everywhere. This is accomplished by recovering DEFAULTed trading promises with INTEREST collections observing the relation: INFLATION = DEFAULT - INTEREST.
"And that trust has to be conveyed to all you wish to deal with."
For example Bitpay as an intermediary? Their Terms Of Use disclaimer states that they can disclose your activities to any 3rd party.
Hmm, and who might a 3rd party be? Facebook would never share your secrets with Uncle Sam. Google would never... Your ISP would never....
So true secrecy would require in-person transactions (and even that is not secure), and that just kinda sorta undermines the value of the teletransaction aspect that we hear so much about.
Me? I have nothing to hide from government, but any government that feels it needs to look anyways does bother me. A govt that feels it needes to install Smartmeters and correlate the nanosecond spikes in my electricity usage and bandwidth consumption to usage to anything (e-commerce use of Btc for as example) bother me too. Where there's a will there's a way. The proles will then find countermeasures, and then govt will.... and for now at least govt is far better funded
in a barter situation, I trust my junk silver
You can't send your junk silver accross the globe or even the country without a long chain of trust.
At a time when silver is being used in trade, I doubt the need to send it anywhere but locally would exist.
Generally, you want to increase your available options, not back yourself into a corner. Maybe one day you would like to be able to leave the country with your money, or buy something from another country.
No-one is telling you to sell all your PMs. It's just that there is now another non-dilutable currency available with different features than gold and silver, and you need to DIVERSIFY.
<<At a time when silver is being used in trade>>
...In the meantime, I think I'll go hide under a rock somewhere.
...which is a great thing! Someone in China would have a difficult time stealing physical silver or gold one holds here, at the bottom of a lake in America, just like politicians in DC would have a difficult time "bailing-in" silver or gold coins to cover fiat debts.
In a barter situation and global economic crisis, I hardly think one will be trading across the globe.
So when you need a loaf of bread to feed your family, you are going to resort to trying to buy that bread from Italy? I doubt it. You are taking an idea but not applying it realistically.
Your best item of barter right now in the USA is a FRN and fractions thereof. But FRNs are a terrible store of value. So if you want a store of value you'll need something besides FRNs. Junk silver, over the last 10 years has been a store of value. Over the last 3 it has been a loser.
But when the collapse comes, FRNs are immediately worthless and junk silver will take over as the small transaction barter item of choice. Until then it is pretty worthless in barter. It must first be turned into FRNs and then use those in barter.
In the fairness of full logic I'd like to point out that it also comes down to whether the person you are transacting with trusts your junk silver.
Nothing is going to be easy. We'll have a LOT of adjusting to do: and that pretty much explains why the current massively flawed system is still running: how in the hell to you get people to accept a "truth" when it comes about as a result of trying to clean up after massive deception?
No doubt about it that barter is cumbersome. But! we'll have more "free" time to engage in it. I recently engaged in barter with my neighbor- I graded his driveway rather than pay for the repair of something that my dog fucked up.
"It doesn't require human trust." -- fonestar
Technically, no, it doesn't "require" trust, but neutral third party clearing seems a valid safeguard.
In a way it does, It's a act of trust to use both bitcocoin itself, and it's network of unregulated brokers in the first place.
What happens if the brokers are shut down?
Why would I trust a crypto currency when I do not know where it came from, and who controls it.
Right now I understand it's about 47 individuals whose motivations are unknown to me.
That's a LOT of trust.
A bank backed crypto currency at least has a physical address, and is regulated and is subject to the law.
I believe private bank issued currency is a bad idea, see my other post to see why.
For honestly, in Soviet Russia, we keep bitcoin in great vault, guarded by Grizzly Bear. You trust us!
Paging Boris...
the bitcoin is going to have some competition, by the looks of it. And while they fight, indians and chinese will keep on importing gold and silver.
Anyone else see this going in exactly the direction that the monied powers want it to go? I mean you can pay with a phone now as a convenience, wave your CC at a terminal, they've been experimenting with RFID implants, etc.. Once the 'convenience factor' kicks in, I can see plenty of sheep wanting to bank and shop using a chip in their hand. Voila! Those powers have you cradle to grave. The SS# will be obsoleted, DL and other forms of ID will go away, and if you don't have a chip, well, you must be a terrrist. No thank you to virtual currencies. Hell, the FRN is mostly virtual now...
LEARN BEFORE POSTING.
Bitcoin is the Anti-Fiat - the slayer of fiat. Maybe that would be a good thing to help, rather than tearing it down?
But, yeah, that's just crazy talk. Long Live The Fed!
Unless you have some unequivocal proof that Bitcoin is not owned by a banking interest you can't say that it's not just another tool of the same powers that run the FED or control fiat worldwide. I think you need to learn before posting.
Bitcoin, by definition, cannot be owned. It's a completely distributed system. It's like asking, "Who owns a torrent file"? Everybody who uses it has a piece of it.
"Bitcoin, by definition, cannot be owned." Got that right at least. /s "Who owns a torrent file"? Yeah, like that worked so well with Demonoid, ISOhunt, and many others and then you have Silk Road. The buck stops somewhere...always.
Is it being suggested that you start a bitcoin service that deals in illegal or questionable material, or that you just diversify a tiny bit into another truly different but still non-dilutable currency?
Bitcoin doesn't replace gold, for the thousanth time, it replaces the DOLLAR, specifically the dollar transfer system along with its inflationary electronic deposit "money".
Well, torrent is a limited example. There is the torrent protocol and the torrent file. They are different. I should have referred to the protocol.
Yeah, you got that right, you pay thousand dollars per bitcoin and you cant even own it, by definition. :)
Unless you have some unequivocal proof that Bitcoin is not owned by a banking interest you can't say that it's not
Yes, I CAN.
The proof that BTC is not owned by a banking interest is PERFECT. The proof is the ultimate kind: Mathematics, as well as a fully-known architecture.
NO ONE OWNS BITCOIN. PERIOD.
Anyone proposing anything to the contrary simply isn't trying.
im sorry for being the one who informs you that santa doesnt exist, but its wellknown and verifiable that most bitcoins are in the hands of very few:
http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf
http://12160.info/photo/927-people-own-half-of-all-bitcoins
http://bitcoinrichlist.com/top500 (this is list of wallets and many wallets on that list belong to same people)
etc... Who are those people? good samaritans? yeah right... bitcoin is a scam, owned by very few, those are who will really benefit from it. So you can tell that "fight the FED with bitcoin" story to your demented mom and even she will laugh at your stupidity. Good story bro.
Gotta love that appeal to ignorance. It's so fallacious its a META-fallacy.
That point is my main problem with BTC as well. Who really is pulling the strings? If there was zero trail left behind each transaction then it would be less of a concern.
What strings?
Seriously. Articulate an argument.
Unless you have some unequivocal proof that you didn't rape my sister last night you better run for the hills because I'm calling the police....
It's hard to prove a negative isn't it?
how do you value bitcoin? every index I see is fiat...
Think it through.
its odd that if you really do think it through, your reallity is made cake layered in false assumptions.
Its expensive to be stupid and arrogant.
C'est la vie.
The issue isn't "is it fiat?". The issue is "what does it stand for?". BitCoins stand for "wasted watts". Real money stands for "a promise to complete a trade".
Fine, BitCoin is anti-fiat. The PROBLEM ain't the currency, it's the System.
People STILL ain't getting it that TPTB have no other course but to control everything. THAT is the System! The "Fed" is but a component, one that can be replaced: and I'm figuring that there are already designs to phase out the Fed (TPTB aren't stupid, they allow the "people" to do a lot of the programming work on themselves; the "End the Fed" campaign has exposure).
It's all like those frothing for "revolution." Then what?
I'm still not seeing/hearing a proper/full definition/recognition of the "problem."
You cannot compete with the State, you cannot defeat it.
I've seen that Bucky Fuller quote in reference to Bitcoin a few times. As far as I can tell, "the system" (Central Banks, Rothschilds, JPMorgans, et. al) is in control of most of the physical gold in the world.
Ok. Go to Walmart and buy a snickers bar with gold shaving. Post the YouTube video. Interested to see how that works.
I have had no problems trading silver for guns
Great. Now buy a loaf of bread with it.
try that with a bitcoin
Bitcoin is still new. Check back in 1 year, mate.
Some merchants that accept BTC list themselves on CoinMap. Any merchants in your area? Why isn't there a GoldMap website listing merchants that accept Gold for goods and services?
Eight years ago when I worked in retail, I had a guy come in and break out silver quarters out of their new mint packaging and buy a pack of cigarettes. He knew they were silver, he said he just really needed a smoke. I promptly traded my 5 dollar bill for his "quarters".
Buying taco with gold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef0VG1WEP10
You can kind of see where this is going - every goddamn computer geek sitting in his mom's basement creating "code" so they be the founders of the next great cryptocurrency. Mom believes son is a computer genius and on to something big, so he freeloads at home and maybe sells some of his new cryptocurrency to his "friends" for spending cash, meanwhile jerking himself off continuously like a day-trader from 1999 - 2000. Dot-com anyone?
Imagine anything you like. Reality has left you behind.
Instead of buying bitcoin, I would be more inclined to create (have someone create) a new cryptocurrency and back it with the collective stacks of ZHers. That's where I see this going - tons of competing cryptocurrencies until someone creates one backed by something real. I'd be shocked if someone like Sprott isn't aggressively pursuing something like this already. Russia and China too.
There is big money behind some services like Ripple that are much more likely to be adopted as an internet payment system than Bitcoin just because of the corporate web of trust. It's an uphill climb for everything that isn't bitcoin or litecoin in the bitcoin clone world.
You got your Jamie Dimon bitcoin dolla, Yewr bitcoin ruble and yewr bitcoin juan. Eh Cyrprus there you have the next super power with the Bitcoin Bitcoin.
I'm goin ta Cyprus.
Govcoin! The new digital currency that keeps track of its previous owners. Coming soon to eclipse all other digital currencies by law.
aka "The Mark of The Beast".
RubeCoin.
Never crossed my mind.
And I agree, heartily!
Hugh Hendry goes long Russia, citing trend line patterns.
I guess you guys can't see it unfolding. The whole idea of distributed ledger once they work out the anonymity part where anyone from point A can send a payment transaction to point B without the transaction being compromised or tracked in transit it is going to be eventually turned into an apolitical standard for worldwide payments on the internet. You can sort of do it now with bitcoin using things like laundry services which need a large volume of transactions to go in then they obfiscate like a tor network or proxy setup using a very large amount of wallets bouncing transactions through them internally then output the the inputs to a completely different wallet that is then used to finish the transaction between point A and B.
The key is this with distributed ledgers they are sequential and therefore can be searched and sorted for transactions in the same manner as big data works since you can break the ledger into smaller matrices and process them in parallel. The whole internet backbone becomes the damn ledger and also the whole backbone considering the size of the ledger can be decentralzied and processed throughout the whole damn backbone using the equivalent of map/reduce hadoop scripts built into the backbone itself.
The coins become irrelevant they just have to meet the standards in the protocol to work within the payment system. This happens then the countries can work out transaction fees built into the system that is collected in each region where a business resides in the analog world. It simplifies the shit out of taxation and commerce when set up and this stuff is hammered out at a negotiation table.
"without the transaction being compromised or tracked in transit" - Let us know when that happens.
Until then all you need to know is that when fraud is the status quo, possession is the law.
Okay mister can't do the technologies are already in place to do this. It is a question of tying it all together into a coherent package.
Yeah that trust system with bitcoin which includes the ledger is compromised since no one is willing to use it.
The whole shit may collapse but that doesn't stop the can do's from putting the systems in place now before it does for those left standing later on when it comes time to rebuild so they might have chance in hell of not having to spend multiple generations living like devolved cavemen.
Plus you miss the bigger point the revenue is generated on the transaction fees they have incentive to make it work and the more open as far as coins goes the more volume and in turn more revenue it generates. Because it is decentralized and a standard they can't fuck with it in a traditional sense or rig the game like they do with closed loop systems where the regulation and owners are on the same time like the stock market. The gubbermint could easily close budget holes by simply taxing every hft transaction on the market a very small tax in fractions of a penny but they don't. You can't not stop it once it is part of the standard and this very idea will eventually make way to things like decentralized exchanges which if they put a small transaction fee on movement and give the governments a cut you can bet the governments will make them legal.
"It is a question of tying it all together into a coherent package." - I am sure some smart programmers at the large banks are working on that right now.
Let me make it simple for you. When fraud is the status quo, possession is the law.
FYI- I have performed transactions using bitcoin. I will always save/store my wealth in physical assets of real value.
I suggest you do the same.
First who said anything about saving. This is about commerce and transactions not saving. Where was it mentioned in what I posted about saving. It is a payment system not a saving system and it is also voluntary in nature which you are entitled to not participate if you so choose. If the system is running and someone will accept them for goods and services then by putting them on a medium outside the net aka a thumb drive or cd I possess them physically just like possess a recording on a cd that originated in the analog world. They both are serving the same function as an analog to digital store of something of value.
Reading comprehension a bit of a callenge for you? Once again, I have performed transactions with bitcoin.
But, are you saying that no bitcoins have been stolen? I think not.
Go ahead, come try and steal my physical assets.
good luck with your logic that a digital bit will "serve the same function".
You make your choices, I'll make mine.
good day.
Go ahead, come try and steal my physical assets.
Same as come and try to steal my physical hard drive or cd for the contents on it whether it be music, bitcoins or some other digital representation of some of value like a document.
They both reside in the real world.
Value is in the eye of the beholder anything can serve that function really it comes down the beholder now don't it.
And like anything else if it has value someone will try to steal it so if people are trying to steal bitcoins...
You can use a bitcoin tumbler. You can simply give someone your passphrase. You can print out a bitcoin and exchange for whatever. All are untraceable methods.
They still have to make the transaction from one wallet to the other digitally. You maybe able to obfiscate who owns the wallet but the transaction is recorded in the ledger. The laundry services work on the idea that you bounce it around enough that is not mathematically feasable to trace through it to find where the input outputed to within the laundry tumbler itself. The fact of the matter is the wallet addresses can be ordered sequentially therefore can be searched and sorted quickly and cheaply using big data map/reduce scripts. The is not proof of concept stuff, the math is proven and so are basic technologies in real world applications. This is just a new application. The idea of a distributed ledger will eventually become an open standard like TCP-IP for internet based commerce transactions. Let all the small businesses and banks implement closed loop variations on it now. The competition is good and it is genuine growth opportunity for the financial services companies to generate revenue besides sucking on the FED's tit for QE money. Also within that competition new ideas, refinement and improvement will pop out along with the failures that go along with competition.
#1 you can create bitcoin addresses that have never been viewed by the bitcoin network. #2 if I print out a bitcoin and print it out, exchange the paper bitcoin for some gold from you, then you exchange the same paper bitcoin for a gun. None of that will be visible on the blockchain. It'll still show it in the same wallet but that wallet is no longer my property.
That is bartering outside the system. That can be done with any items of value outside a payment system which is what the distributed ledger is. Yeah I can create addresses outside the system but to put some value into them a transaction has to happen somewhere that gets recorded into the ledger that is considered valid from a single address that is tied into the ledger. You are not as insulated as you think and don't under estimate forensic accountants. The technology may change but the underlying tricks don't. If you know the tricks the technology really is incidental.
"without the transaction being compromised or tracked in transit" - Let us know when that happens.
Thousands of people do this EVERY DAY. Unique BTC addresses, Tor, encryption, secure email, anonymity networks... all of them work, and so do P2P transactions.
All you have to do is try.
Read my post above. Big difference between currencies that facilitate exchange/commerce and wealth preservation.
I am all for any technologies that cut out useless paper-pushing financial fucks.
" One wonders what happens when the largest banks of the US and Russia sanction the 'idea' of a decentralized, unregulated, 'money' transfer system."
What HAPPENS is that another Ponzi scheme is created.
You can't figure that out? You moron.
At first read I thought it said 'SerfBank'
A virtual currency still needs to be purchased and sold in a currency at some point to have value. It looks more like a substitute for something like Gold.
A bitcoin that is mined could be traded for goods or services. It doesn't need a traditional currency to give it value.
Banks never saw a Ponzi scheme they didn't want to run themselves. As I've noted repeatedly, Bitcoins may be limited, but digital currency schemes are infinite.
Why would anyone in their right mind invest in a currency offered by a bank that is so tighly interwined with the Russian state that is essentially Putin and his friends private piggie bank?
As bad as things are in the West financially, Russia is the same corrupt sh!thole that it has always been. Same autocratic theme, different name. Nothing ever changes in Russia seemingly.
The whole point is that it does not matter!
It's a currency (currentsea) not money, for fucks sake. Something most bitboys around here don't get.
Bitcoin was invented to facilitate transactions at Pirate Bay. Pirate Bay needs to have choices for virtual currency, to grow itself. All are disruptive technologies. Virtual Currencies are disruptive to Central Banks and will be embraced for now by parties with goals to disrupt currency monopolies. None of these currencies will prove to anything more than a route to transact financial arrangements outside of current monopoly, terrible place to hold what appears to be wealth or savings.
If the banksters can't own it or profit from it it will be illegal.
Why don't these ass holes just use gold and silver backed currencies? It's pretty fucking simple. Encrypt them all they want but make them fucking redeemible for something presious and physical.
That was tried E Gold they were shut down and theowners went to jail.
The banks proposal will not be decentralized. It will be a centralized and controlled virtual money.
When a new fad crypto currency better than bitcoin comes out bitcoin will go to zero and so on with the crypto currency after that.
I like the day crew on BTC posts over the night crew.
No, the difference is the Russians don't want the US govt to own all the backdoored virtual currencies. There are NSA backdoored virtual currencies to fit all tastes now: if Bitcoin is too expensive for you there are 60 cheaper ones. If you want one with a bank name attached to it there's JPM web cash. If you want one with a space age name there's quark...
I thought all currencies are already virtual?
Limited supply of Crypto-currency everywhere ... 43 Coins listed and JPMorgan with Sberbank in competition
Wake up and Smell the tulips - When will the Bitcoin Bubble burst?Madness of crowds is presented on the chart above and it is our top pick for the chart of 2013. Erik Steiner has created a very good presentation on Bitcoin: discussing in depth advantages and disadvantages of this particular crypto-currency and why it is now in the Bubble stage. His observations about the possibility that the Ponzi Scheme architecture is created by design in Bitcoin are very intriguing. We will add that recent push of Bitcoin by Bank of America, CITI and Merrill Lynch are not very aligned with the "freedom fighters". It looks more and more that corporate interests are already running it wild if they were not the creators of "Gold 2.0" from the beginning in order to distract 99% from the real values of Gold and Silver. http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/wake-up-and-smell-tulips-when-will.h...
"Prefer symmetric cryptography over public-key cryptography. Prefer conventional discrete-log-based systems over elliptic-curve systems; the latter have constants that the NSA influences when they can."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-how-to-remain-secure-su...
One way out would be to use currency that meets "sound money" requirements, as I posted on 11/8 4137185
Currency and Money have more than 2 or 3 "Attributes". My fully expanded List of Attributes of Ideal Money and Currency is...
IDEAL
MONEY FIAT GOLD BTC
1. Finite Supply N Y Y (21,000,000 to be issued by 2140)
(store of value)
2. Portable Y Y+N Y (Cold Wallet, Password-phrase in your head)
3. Fungible Y Y Y
4. Non-forgeable N Y (but has Y
Assay issues)
5. Divisible Y Y+N (impractical at Y
Retail level)
6. Private N ? Y (Peer-to-Peer. No banks, CBs or BIS as middlemen)
7. Acceptance Y Y+N Limited but growing fast
8. Conf/Theft-resistant N Y+N Y (in cold-wallet. Can lose it if stored online)
Confiscated or Stolen
at Private level
9. Durable N Y Y+N ('No', if all CBs in the world ban it)
10. Legal tender Y N (few exceptions) N (but banks poised to issue own version)
Currently suited for Private/Parallel Economy, as it
removes VoM from fiat-currency/official economy
/ The alternative is to keep playing the Fiat-Currency-Creation game, until ther is so much of it that they have to switch to a Log scale -- just to create the illusion of linearity in the minds of the Sheeple. /s
To me the core issues for BTC is its evolution of (A) BTC Price Stability/Volatility, and (B) BTC's Interface to the Real Economy (to goods, fiat/cash and banks). Until Stability is reached, retail stores will be too scared to use it, as my recent call to my coin shop proved. IF gold-shops accept it widely, then you will have created a PARALLEL (BTC/Gold) economy, where Gold is Money and BTC is Currency for daily transactions. If that happens, the CBs would be losing market share or "out of business", depending on the speed. And the CBs would outlaw this PDQ (Pretty Damn Quick), if it threaten their biz model too much.
IF its growth were more stable (due to less speculation/flipping, due to more long-term consumer demand, and less CB whack-downs), then more stores would accept it. Although it's gaining in acceptance, I still see mostly "fringe users" and "opportunist" using it. E.g. someone looking for some high-profile publicity (exotic car dealer).
If some banks were willing to trade BTC for fiat cash, they could do so only with the permission of their CB. The odds of that happening are what exactly? Not good, I suspect. BTC might be a good Beta Test (pull-demand, market acceptance) for the Banks/CBs that want to issue their own CC.
But if Banks issue their own CC, then my question is: What's in it for me? How is this "better" than what I'm doing now? Where I use Cash or my Debit card, which are FAST and UBIQUITOUS in acceptance. No bullshit iToy or Droid need for cash or Debit card.
Is this to "wean" us toward CC from CBs, so that one day they flip the Switch and force us to use only CC -- which they can track for EVERY transaction (a la 666), so that no 'currency launderers' or 'tax evaders' can survive? And they have TOTAL control (full-spectrum domination)?
I'm certian bitcoin was created by a central bank sponsored entity. There is no proof that it is the free curency that all the believers say.
I believe is is the new weapon in currency wars and a form of new QE. it is a diversion for poeple to put their store of value in something that is not real. Same as derivitves that back 401ks, etc.
It is just extremely nieve to think that central banks are not behind the creation of bitcoin and all digital currencies.
The planet Earth will soon learn the difference between "currency" and "money" -