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US, Chinese Warships "Nearly Collide" In South China Sea

Tyler Durden's picture





 

With the recent deployment of China's air defenze zone, and the subsequent announcement of a comparable zone by South Korea which overlaps not only with China's own, but with that of Japan, it almost seems like a scenario designed to provoke an escalating conflict on the tiniest of provocations is actively being produced. A scenario such as the one US defense officials revealed today, when a guided missile cruiser operating in international waters in the South China Sea was forced to take evasive action last week to avoid a collision with a Chinese navy ship maneuvering nearby.

Hold on: how can two massive ships, visible to the naked eye and certainly to radar from hundreds of miles away, "nearly collide"?

Reuters reports that the incident took place on December 5 and involved the USS Cowpens. The Pacific Fleet statement did not offer details about what led to the near-collision.

But it did say the incident underscored the need for the "highest standards of professional seamanship, including communications between vessels, to mitigate the risk of an unintended incident or mishap."

The rest of the story is widely known:

Beijing declared the air defense zone over the East China Sea late last month and demanded that aircraft flying through the area provide it with flight plans and other information.

 

The United States and its allies rejected the Chinese demand and have continued to fly military aircraft into the zone, which includes air space over a small group of islands claimed by China but currently administered by Tokyo.

 

In the midst of the tensions over the air defense zone, China deployed its only aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, to the South China Sea for maneuvers. Beijing claims most of the South China Sea and is involved in territorial disputes in the region with several of its neighbors.

And so, the waters have been tested, so to speak, with a media "warning" on just how brazen China can be when it comes to its "aggressive" tactics in what we are confident the Chinese media will describe as its own maritime territory, begging the question of just who was provoking whom, especially since the response to a Chinese missile cruiser sailing idly by New York or San Francisco, even if in "international waters", would hardly see the same controlled reaction by the US.

Then again, it has been only two weeks since China's most recent "escalation." We are confident that given time, this will be the least of the close shipping encounters that involve Chinese, US, Japanese and/or Korean navies in the East China Sea. After all, one must think of all that, GDP that as WWII taught us, can be easiest gained through some modest, or not so modest, international conflict.

 


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Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:19 | Link to Comment Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

A game of international high sea's chicken?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:23 | Link to Comment negative rates
negative rates's picture

Ships that go bump in the night.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:34 | Link to Comment Major Major Major
Major Major Major's picture

Corrision Course

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:37 | Link to Comment InjectTheVenom
InjectTheVenom's picture

Wi Tu Klos

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:37 | Link to Comment Leveraged Algorithm
Leveraged Algorithm's picture

Wa Da Fck.......over

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:42 | Link to Comment ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Hold on: how can two massive ships, visible to the naked eye and certainly to radar from hundreds of miles away, "nearly collide"?

 

A: Chinese smog cloaking device?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:44 | Link to Comment A L I E N
A L I E N's picture

 

Thats it, bring back the crow's nest..

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:04 | Link to Comment SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

captain of us ship said "we didn't see it on the radar or anything and then it was like Whoom! right there in front of us! so this was a real wake-up call because they have this cloaking device-type-thing is what I'm guessing"

 

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:13 | Link to Comment Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

I wonder what will happen when there are Chinese carrier groups in the North Atlantic?

It's coming.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:15 | Link to Comment unrulian
unrulian's picture

for a "group" don't they first need a "carrier" that can launch a plane?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:46 | Link to Comment Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Yes.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:32 | Link to Comment NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

They have one.  They bought the bare shell of the Riga from the Soviets (Ukraine) and revamped it themselves, relaunching it as the Liaoning.  

When the Chinese bought it they said the plan was to turn it into an offshore floating casino.  Well, there IS gambling going on with it now, but it's got nothing to do with roulette and card games.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:36 | Link to Comment mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"Hold on: how can two massive ships, visible to the naked eye and certainly to radar from hundreds of miles away, "nearly collide"?"

Sort of like this...
Soviet frigate rams USS Yorktown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SME4w037FgA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DiaDrfRZkI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5D...

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:22 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

good post. I posted before seeing yours.

nothing wrong with a little contact to test your metal

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:47 | Link to Comment Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

Good.  I need a job ... burn the fucking world down to the ground...again.!!  

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:24 | Link to Comment MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

The Stockholm and the Andrea Doria: Studies in human error in maritime disasters...

Back in '56, the Italian outbound liner 'Andrea Doria', and the inbound Swedish merchant vessel 'Stockholm', collided with each other off the east coast of the United States, with no apparent explanation as to their meeting on an ocean vastly larger than the area described in this article I post on.

Niether one was a 'warship', and they both carried either passengers or merchandise; therefore mindful of the safety of their respective cargoes.

The officers in charge, however, BOTH fucked up, and misunderstood common protocols; and drove their ships IN TO each other.

"Hold on: how can two massive ships, visible to the naked eye and certainly to radar from hundreds of miles away, "nearly collide"?"

Well, BUCKWHEAT AUTHOR, this shit happens. It historically occurrs (as linked for historical reference), and it will happen again, no doubt. Dipshit!

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Andrea+doria+stolckholm&qpvt=Andrea+...

I suppose that the 'aut-oh-re-tiez' are out in the South China Sea, painting pretty little LINES for TRAFFIC, or something. Follow the flashing chemtrails...

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:53 | Link to Comment Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

Fucking Hypocrite Bullies Need A Black Eye

Who is going to throw the punch?

 

Stack On

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 08:35 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

Ready one finger salute......deploy.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 04:55 | Link to Comment Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

Not ramming, just hydrodynamic ignorance on Soviet skipper. He got himself sucked into the draft of the hull and lost helm.
just a boob.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:35 | Link to Comment old naughty
old naughty's picture

"...that involve Chinese, US, Japanese and/or Korean navies in the East China Sea. After all, one must think of all that, GDP that as WWII taught us, can be easiest gained through some modest, or not so modest, international conflict."

 

Including Phillippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, and ah, um, Singapore if you "stretch" out...

 

Wagon-circling help arms sales. 

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:23 | Link to Comment Zero Point
Zero Point's picture

Yeah, they got one. One of USSR's floating rust piles that they couldn't afford when their economy collapsed.

Plagued with cost blowouts, and probably barely functional. I read somewhere China was wishing they'd just built it from scratch.

The damn thing set back Sino Russian relations 50 years it was such a pos.

Coutered by 10 US carrier groups, soon to be 11 as the Ford class starts to come online.

Russia has (count it) ONE carrier as well.

I won't even get started on the fucking LHTs, let's just say the Pacific ain't going to be speaking Chinese anytime soon, irregardless of propaganda.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:32 | Link to Comment tvdog
tvdog's picture

China has Silkworm missiles - soon the number of U.S. carriers could be much less.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:34 | Link to Comment fingulas
fingulas's picture

Read up on the "buzzsaw" manuver.  Silkworm missles need a launching platform and a radar...those don't function well when HARM's are inboud.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 00:00 | Link to Comment Lore
Lore's picture

One Yakhont, two Yakhont, three Yakhont, four...  Five Yakhont, six Yakhont, seven Yakhont more...

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 00:41 | Link to Comment Zero Point
Zero Point's picture

Yeah, yeah. The old one platform war winner argument.

As if carrier groups are the only string in the US bow.

Mass destruction in the US navy is historically how the US starts wars.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 00:32 | Link to Comment Zero Point
Zero Point's picture

Hey geniuses. Riddle me this:

Purpose of the modern US navy is to:

A: Provide support in an internal US conflict.

B: Fight the Chinese/Russian navy, in order to... well... fucked if I know what purpose that would serve actually. Protect the little rock islands I guess. Lol.

Ask the same question with regard to the Chinese navy.

Why would all this propaganda be about them fighting each other?

Gee, I wonder... How does one get approval for more weapons from the party I wonder? Especially considering the whole fiasco behind China actually buying their mighty carrier was basically a party hack making millions from a convoluted arms deal.

 

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 13:30 | Link to Comment SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

China sees this the same way.  China is now actively militarily expanding its influence into the Pacific and every action america takes to thwart it is a justification for China to expand its military in its own eyes and in the eyes of the world.  Don't forget China has several trillion dollars Forex reserves which, as most here at ZH would agree, will soon be without value so they might as well spend it on something, eh?

Japan is in a really bad spot and it's going to continue to get worse.  Fight or switch.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:10 | Link to Comment wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

 

 

Nothing new here...

We've just traded Crazy Ivan...

For Crazy Dung!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:32 | Link to Comment RobertC
RobertC's picture

It not coming that soon.  First, they need worldwide logistics support; they don't have it.  Guess who does?

 

Logistics is key once you step away from the motherland...

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:46 | Link to Comment Thorny Xi
Thorny Xi's picture

US logistics depend almost entirely on satellite comms, which the Chinese have proven capability to eliminate.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:14 | Link to Comment post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

don't make me laugh... they haven't proven shit... whereas the US has... from the very thing _designed_ to protect a carrier group, no less... read up on Operation Burnt Frost

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 07:28 | Link to Comment malikai
malikai's picture

Via wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Burnt_Frost

"While the launch was successful, ground controllers lost control over the USA-193 satellite shortly after it was established on its orbit, and were unable to regain control. The satellite itself posed minimal risk of falling and causing damage. However, the satellite carried hydrazine fuel which is very toxic.[4] In 2008, President George W. Bush decided this risk would be too great and tasked United States Strategic Command to destroy the satellite to preserve human life."

lolWTF?! The thing is in space, but that hydrazine (we spill more in a day down here) is a problem, we better bring it down or it will kill some of those Iraqi kids before we get a chance to!

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 12:33 | Link to Comment post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

I see ... so no one remembers that we shot that down not one week after China came out and said they had ballistic anti-ship missiles? because that's exactly what happened... China came out spitting some mad bullshit about how our carrier task forces were nullified by their new ASBM tech and, lo and behold, we shoot a satellite straight out of the sky like it ain't no thing using the very platform that's designed to protect carrier task forces... basically saying, "your vaporware ASBM tech is cute China, but our shit actually works... your move"

how many times do I have to say it... any nation that wants to get in a shooting match with the US is playing to US strengths... you fight the US successfully by going asymmetric, not toe to toe

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 00:41 | Link to Comment Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture

redacted

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:11 | Link to Comment Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

The uss enterprise vs. A cloaked klingon warship

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:07 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Other reports say the Cowpens was shadowing/observing the new Chinese aircraft carrier.
OK....
Guess what happens when a foreign armed vessel (or even commercial for that matter) comes too close to one of our carrier battle groups.

Y'all getchur nuts grabbed good and hard.

So, a dual standard fed to an over friendly propaganda media to incite the masses that the Chinese are getting too big for thier Xuanduan, so prepare for the beat down on Nah Mi Pu Pu and his Hot Pot girls.

Oh, more just on the edge of false flag events...
Sir, did you say ramming speed?
Yes, seaman, ramming speed....

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:34 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Bethca the captain shoots his uncle over this...betcha betcha betcha ;-)

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:24 | Link to Comment old naughty
old naughty's picture

eh...they just boot him out of the party, if the chinese captain is to be blamed, betcha ;-p

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 09:47 | Link to Comment Agstacker
Agstacker's picture

Captain of the US ship was Joseph Hazelwood.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:50 | Link to Comment TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

Sree dolla estra faw high seas derivery!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:13 | Link to Comment UGrev
UGrev's picture

Bao go Bang!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:41 | Link to Comment Leveraged Algorithm
Leveraged Algorithm's picture

More to come....

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 01:32 | Link to Comment SDShack
SDShack's picture

Sum Ting Wong

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:37 | Link to Comment Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

we must redeem our National pride at once!

Sell them Detroit!!!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:48 | Link to Comment Pooper Popper
Pooper Popper's picture

Ora NO!

Must have been an asian woman...

 

Why in the hell are they such bad drivers????

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:31 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

She probably didn't even look after she cut off the Cowpens..."I no see you white boy, I no look at you, you goway!!"

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:07 | Link to Comment buttmint
buttmint's picture

Black Swans eveywhere!

Recently filmed on Gold Coast! jing jing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpqG6wLSmFE&feature=youtu.be

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:58 | Link to Comment BigInJapan
BigInJapan's picture

You sink me baddoship

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:32 | Link to Comment kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

good one.......they keep it up and they just might go boom in the night........and then the "game" begins in earnest

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:43 | Link to Comment negative rates
negative rates's picture

I'm glad you are so prepared, Just watch out for the falling trees.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:07 | Link to Comment Jambo Mambo Bill
Jambo Mambo Bill's picture

You mean 'falling hair'...

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:47 | Link to Comment tickhound
tickhound's picture

Signal lamp dude was a fake. Signals were gibberish.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:07 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Appears he's just waving his light sticks about randomly, Captain
More power Mr Scott!

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 01:48 | Link to Comment putaipan
putaipan's picture

everybody!.....KINKY TOM, KINKY TOM, HE JUST BOUGHT THE DOG !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0DNBIipaKs

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:29 | Link to Comment DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Look who flinched first

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:17 | Link to Comment johny2
johny2's picture

evade collision, imperialistic dogs!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:19 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

Just like in traffic, the guy with the more expensive vehicle.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:27 | Link to Comment zaphod
zaphod's picture

The thing to remember in all of this is if any country takes a military action against the US, any debts to that country are immediately declared null and void.

The US will never pay down the bonds owed to the Chinese, there will be a scuttle somewhere and the US government will simply write off that debt.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:31 | Link to Comment Shadow750
Shadow750's picture

...and the role of the US dollar as the reserve currency would collapse. 

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:35 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

good. Im sick of it

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:19 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

Then get ready for the USD to be devalued by half when the Chinese dump their $3.7 trillion USD reserves on the market. 

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:41 | Link to Comment MrButtoMcFarty
MrButtoMcFarty's picture

If the deal was the USD would get wacked in half in exchange for sane government for the people by the people....where do I sign??

Nothing changes until K Street burns.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:37 | Link to Comment acetinker
acetinker's picture

Don't sign nothin', Mr. Butto.  If you do, it makes you party to a party you don't want nothing to do with.  

Please disregard me if,

(a) My comments fly pristine and clean over your head.

(b) You think that your chances are better than mine.

 

Truth is, I dunno.  May peace be with you.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:18 | Link to Comment post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

you say that like it's a big number... got news for you, these days it isn't

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:42 | Link to Comment zaphod
zaphod's picture

No, not really. Only "agressive" countries that don't kowtow to the US would worry about this. The US could pull of doing this to China, while at the same time having Japan, Korea, Canada, Australia, UK, EU, ect. etc etc not worry about it happening to them.

All of these countries already bow to US financial regulatory rules, because otherwise they are cut off.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:49 | Link to Comment gallistic
gallistic's picture

It is hard to determine if you are being flip or not. You actually sound like you believe the simplistic drivel you wrote.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 01:43 | Link to Comment zaphod
zaphod's picture

I believe that simplistic drivel because it is what already happens in the real world today.

Just look at Iran, by cutting them out of the US financial network Iran became completely isolated. Did the world resist the US's efforts in Iran because "they might be next", no. The world went on trusting that the US will not do the same to them since they are all playing along.

But feel free to ignore reality if you like.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 15:08 | Link to Comment gallistic
gallistic's picture

Wow! That's what I thought.

I sure as hell am not going to even try to untangle that web of thought.

Drive on and keep believing that man...

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:18 | Link to Comment unrulian
unrulian's picture

Its also hard to know if you're literate

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:42 | Link to Comment Van Halen
Van Halen's picture

Zaphod, respectfully I remind you that you're using... common sense and reality.

Our leaders would arrange some deal where we all would be sold out and the enemy would win while our leaders advanced in power and wealth over us.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:10 | Link to Comment zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

In other words, we the sheeples will be skinned alive.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:00 | Link to Comment MollyHacker
MollyHacker's picture

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha to infinity.

That's why I like South Korea's lay of the line best;)

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:24 | Link to Comment css1971
css1971's picture

Um. You realise that the Chinese already got the wealth? The wealth was the jobs the factories, the infrastructure.

The debt is just there to hold down US inflation. Get rid of the debt and inflation jumps.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:57 | Link to Comment hunglow
hunglow's picture

Is port red or green.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:36 | Link to Comment tvdog
tvdog's picture

You're asking ZHers? With their boating skills? These people don't know from navigation lights!

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 01:28 | Link to Comment DriveByLurker
DriveByLurker's picture

The way to remember is that "port" and "left" have the same number of letters; they are the same side.

 

Port wine is often red-ish (think ruby port); the port side of the vessel has the red navigation light.

 

Tune in the the next episode of "Zero Hedge Yacht Talk" when we answer the question, "Why are two 360 degree red lights or two black spheres on the mast called 'Panamanian Running Lights?' "

 

 

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 01:46 | Link to Comment Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

"The other way of scraping the barnacles off the bottom" I believe . . . .

Notice the similarity between this signal, and the design of the isolated danger mark (again, two balls), however the lights are fixed and red, whereas the isolated danger mark has the characteristic 2 quick flashes then a pause.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:35 | Link to Comment Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Red to Port (left) Green to Starboard (right)

Easy way to remember- those on the Left of the Political Spectrum are generally referred to as "Reds".

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 05:44 | Link to Comment ebear
ebear's picture

Depends. Are you sailing up or down river?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:01 | Link to Comment rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

Jeffrey Pelt: "It would be well for your government to consider that having your ships and ours, your aircraft and ours, in such proximity... is inherently DANGEROUS. Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador." Hunt For Red October - 1990

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 00:16 | Link to Comment Lore
Lore's picture

That line was perfect for its glibness and condescension. It really captured the tone of that time.  In many respects, Clancy was one sharp duck.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:51 | Link to Comment takeaction
takeaction's picture

Gulf of Tonkin Part 2

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 04:53 | Link to Comment Wile-E-Coyote
Wile-E-Coyote's picture

Hard to Port! Eject Goose, eject.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:19 | Link to Comment TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Yay, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for thou art with me.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:43 | Link to Comment Van Halen
Van Halen's picture

I wouldn't rely on God helping this country out in a fight again. Not the way we've gone into overdrive to spit in His face and kick Him out of every single aspect of our lives.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:54 | Link to Comment TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Hear you loud and clear.  We like to throw out a prayer now and again to mess with (in a loving way) the atheists.  Who knows, maybe when things get ugly they will remember it and realize they never walk alone.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:11 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Yes, yes, yes...
Messing with atheists is like messing with Progressives.
Easy to incite an emotive response

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:16 | Link to Comment Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

As a practicing Satanist, I'm quite happy with US policy. The Bohemian Grove crew and all is doing quite well for our cause. When the US prays, you need to ask who they are really praying to. Which God endorses droning innocents again.....

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:22 | Link to Comment unrulian
unrulian's picture

Same ones that endorsed the crusades...money changers.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:33 | Link to Comment new game
new game's picture

question/message to god types/religious types/bible thumpers?

is your alliance any different than football, american idol or any fantacy with vague reality.

cause i be walking on water to get an offering plate right on over to ya...

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:08 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Question to atheist's, how much faith do you really have, that you've discovered everything there is to know about this universe in your short lives and what's impossible for you to ever know of it?

That requires some real faith right there.

And then there is Roger Penrose (an admitted atheist) who calculates the odds of the "evolution" of you and I to become what we are, on the order of 10^10^123 to 1.

Thats some REALLY long odds. Substantially more than lotto...lol.

I guess I'll be passin the plate on to the satanist above you who seems to have this deity thingy all figgered out and believes his deity really has his best interests at heart ;-)

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:17 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

With over 5200+ separate deities worshiped on the planet today, all surrounded by similar legends and myths, which one is the "true" god. It is likely that all religious dogma originated from the same celestial beings. Science has proven that our genetic markers have shown modifications at certain points in our history.  The real question is if they are our creators and are aiding in our evolution, should we consider them our cousins or some god to be worshiped? 

 

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 10:47 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

I've followed Daniken's work and it is interesting but it never ceases to amaze me that it is the Christian's belief's that are always challenged, mocked & attacked. The Satanist (there can be him but not God?...really?...lol) is left alone, as well as Hindu eight armed deities sent to fight evil in the world and of course, praising trees has always been hip, even though a one sided conversation...lol.

I chaulk that observation up to the effectivness of political correctness in the western world, in which atheists & agnostics dominate the talking head set where its simply uncool to critique brown skinned beliefs plus they have really neat incense holders and use torches in their ceremonies & stuff.

But back on Daniken and "celestial seeding", time & distance have to be overcome to make it possible for natural beings to do this, knowing what we know now.

So we are again left with, what cannot be fully explained or understood through science, falls into the philosophical & theological buckets.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:14 | Link to Comment Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

For the record, I mock them all. I'm not an atheist, I just get tired of hardline jews/muslims/christians/whatevers shoving their beliefs in my face. Anyone who is open and accepting is fine by me, I highly respect those who lead by example, and not thumping.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 22:33 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yes, I thought so of you (and forgive me for playing off of your Satanist comment in this context) buts its the same in the reverse...with them trying to shove atheism down everyones throat.

Believe me, I'm no saint.

But there's always tomorrow ;-)

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:28 | Link to Comment Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Understand that Atheism is simply a case of not believing in one or more Gods.

Those who embrace Atheism do not claim to know everything any more than you do, but they do question the blind, entirely dogmatic belief in unseen, immeasurable and therefore unproveable "God(s)". There are plenty of folk who are very convinced (with good historical support) that the entire "Jesus" thing was in fact fiction, for example - http://jesusneverexisted.com/, or http://see_the_truth.webs.com/Jesus_Christ.htm; just two examples of well over one million commentaries / articles.

As to Roger Penrose, the calculation refers to arriving "at us", in a single sequence of evolution. This number simply demonstrates the cumulative probability of many trillions of individual successful evolutionary steps, needed to produce life-forms "exactly like us". The "random probability" of producing e.g. cabbages, flies, or seaweed from the same arbitrary "starting point" (presumed to be the "primordial soup") has a similar numerical order of magnitude. It is intereasting to note that Roger Penrose is a firm Atheist, whilst his colleague, Stephen Hawking, is (or at least used to be) pretty religious.

For me, Asimov's short story "The Last Question" provides a credible, and interesting "alternative view", with the underlying message of "eternal recycling" on all scales, from the atomic, to the Universal, being particularly interesting and completely credible. If you choose to read it, note that we have already taken the first steps in "Molecular-level" electronics (Asimov's "Molecular Valves"?) over a decade ago (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html). My doesn't time fly when you're on a roll!!

Anyway - here's a link to the short story. Whether you feel it is believable or too incredible is up to you. http://filer.case.edu/dts8/thelastq.htm

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 10:26 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Understand that Atheism is simply a case of not believing in one or more Gods."

Thats the way I understand it and they never miss an opportunity to scream it from the mountain tops. I just wish they would quit calling on Him during sex or when a bear is chasing them in the woods ;-)

"...that the entire "Jesus" thing was in fact fiction..."

Most historical scholars (not theologians) agree Jesus did in fact exist. You (and they) are simply wrong.

You are however correct on what Penrose's calculation means. At any point on the "evolutionary chain" it had to go exactly right for us to exist as us. Intelligent, sentient beings...instead of frogs or rats, for example.

The jury is still out on the mutants...lol.

//////////////////

For my junker, you've undoubtedly never heard of Josephus & Tacitus.

Mutant.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:10 | Link to Comment Surging Chaos
Surging Chaos's picture

You guys do realize that two of the biggest influences of libertarianism (Rand and Rothbard) are atheists, right?

I'm just trying to figure out what the deal is with the anti-atheist vitriol. You're not automatically an evil person for believing there's no god.

"Qua religion, no—in the sense of blind belief, belief unsupported by, or contrary to, the facts of reality and the conclusions of reason. Faith, as such, is extremely detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason." -- Ayn Rand

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:37 | Link to Comment TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

1)   We greened you.

2)   What anti-atheist vitriol?

3)   Ayn who?

4)   Don't confuse religion with spirituality.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:53 | Link to Comment Surging Chaos
Surging Chaos's picture

1) Ok.

2) Saying you're an atheist in the US a great way to burn bridges with a lot of friends.

3) The same Ayn who people love for Atlas Shrugged but completely ignore or reject all the Objectivist philosophy in that book.

4) What makes Christianity different from any other religion?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:59 | Link to Comment TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

1)  OK

2)  Are they really your friends, then?

3)  We are perfectly aware of Ayn Rand, it was an attempt at humor.

4)  Christianity has little to do with Jesus Christ who, being enlightened, was pure SPIRIT.  Would you like to know more?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:40 | Link to Comment new game
new game's picture

or said straight forward - ignorance of reason. the world is just voer 2000 years old.

the opiate to control the masses.

now i am getting all giddy over this thought.

"control the masses"  forget not...

the golden rule is all you need!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:57 | Link to Comment Surging Chaos
Surging Chaos's picture

I agree with the Golden Rule as something to live by, but let's not kid ourselves in thinking it originated from Christianity. Golden Rule has been around history for a very long time, well before the book of Matthew was written. That's mainly what I'm trying to get at.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:36 | Link to Comment MrButtoMcFarty
MrButtoMcFarty's picture

Which came first....the dogma or the karma?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:19 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

History shows it is karma. 

 

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:28 | Link to Comment Mentaliusanything
Mentaliusanything's picture

Agreed.. My Dog, Ma got hit by the Kar, ma.
He is no more

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 02:23 | Link to Comment post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

my karma ran over the dogma

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:46 | Link to Comment SunRise
SunRise's picture

You do realize that Jesus Christ continues to be the biggest influnce on libertarianism, right?  "What shall it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul?  or What shall a man give in exchange for his soul?   A greater appeal to one's own self interest (selfishness - Rand has said) has never been uttered than that stark contrast between heaven and hell.  A greater antidote against the tyranny of the group does not exist other than the allegience Christ called for to the ALL-Mighty who has the power to do more than just kill the body, rather than just the government-mighty.  In this the Law is fulfilled to love the Lord Thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind and to love thy neighbor as thyself - Another appeal to the most important thing in the world - Your relation to God and mankind.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:46 | Link to Comment Surging Chaos
Surging Chaos's picture

"Christ, in terms of the Christian philosophy, is the human ideal. He personifies that which men should strive to emulate. Yet, according to the Christian mythology, he died on the cross not for his own sins but for the sins of the nonideal people. In other words, a man of perfect virtue was sacrificed for men who are vicious and who are expected or supposed to accept that sacrifice. If I were a Christian, nothing could make me more indignant than that: the notion of sacrificing the ideal to the nonideal, or virtue to vice. And it is in the name of that symbol that men are asked to sacrifice themselves for their inferiors. That is precisely how the symbolism is used." -- Ayn Rand

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:44 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

You cannot separate the individual choices a human makes (accountability to man & his laws) from the individual spiritual choices he makes to God & His laws?

Murder is still illegal under mans law...yet there is no escaping the state (vis-a vis man's law) murdered an innocent Jesus.

I am a Christian (though admittedly non-practicing at the moment) but an atheist, making pronouncements on how she would feel if she were a Christian does not impress me as an individual, even though I agree with her derision of the same state (and its laws) that executed Him.

As she most certainly did.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:35 | Link to Comment TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

This is why we said Ayn who?  When the Roman soldier drove a spike through Jesus' hand Jesus did not flinch.  Confused, the soldier drove a spike into Jesus' side.  Again, he felt no pain.  Did he die for your sins?  NO.  He did not die!!!!!!  This is the lesson of the crucifiction:  The body is not real.  He was NOT  sacrificed.  Christianity has it all wrong.

 

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 10:11 | Link to Comment Squiddly Diddly
Squiddly Diddly's picture

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

1 Cor 1

18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,


“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 09:22 | Link to Comment RSloane
RSloane's picture

Anti-atheist vitriol? Knukles is right.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:59 | Link to Comment Lin S
Lin S's picture

+ 1 THIS.

I've said the same for a long time but so far, no come uppance.  Nevertheless, a lesson in humility is on the way, soon to b#tch-slap this country.

 

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:22 | Link to Comment lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

It is up to us who have worn the uniform to maintain honor despite the world of shit we were thrown into in the service.

My Oath to the Constitution does NOT expire.

Pray God forgives us and that enough of us are still praying.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:40 | Link to Comment gallistic
gallistic's picture

You may (or may not) have worn it, but do not presume to speak for anybody who has "worn the uniform".

They can speak for themselves.

You, arrogant and delusional one, can only speak for yourself.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:22 | Link to Comment americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

Curiously, Johnny Depp was sighted on the bow of the Chinese ship waving a sword and demanding the the US ship "heave to and prepare to be boarded".

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:16 | Link to Comment GoldRulesPaperDrools
GoldRulesPaperDrools's picture

Well, we'll heave-to only if he's willing to sign autographs.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 20:33 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Did he high-five DiCaprio on the way by? 

Rose...gurgle...Rose...

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 23:23 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

And the American destroyer retaliatd by hanging speakers over the side and blasted Britney Spears at the Chinese as a form of torture. 

 

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:23 | Link to Comment Payne
Payne's picture

A near collision could mean they came within 500 feet without communications visual or radio.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:30 | Link to Comment TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Or maybe they bumped hulls.  It gets lonely out at sea for seamen, no matter where you're from.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:21 | Link to Comment kevinearick
kevinearick's picture

gravity.

Happy Holidays

You have transparent government, a real estate welfare system driven by an immigration ponzi, with bonds, stocks, blah, blah blah, being replaced by the dc kernel, globally, as government misdirection becomes obvious, and your individual exit is the implicit kernel, which requires a unique key, granting you privacy, if you give the government a public profile.

The kernel is the free agency problem solution. People adopt false assumptions like clothing, for a reason. The theory is quite simple, but, yes, the implementation is another animal all together; it’s a jungle. The key is location, perspective differentials. The integral is respective.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:53 | Link to Comment kevinearick
kevinearick's picture

China’s banking system is ultimately controlled by the state. Any post-bubble credit purge is likely to play out in a different way, with less risk of a dramatic crisis and more risk of a chronic malaise.

and who is going to buy Detroit lighting bonds?

Sat, 12/14/2013 - 00:32 | Link to Comment Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

Latest rumor is that the Chinese are buying up Detroit.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:09 | Link to Comment bobert
bobert's picture

Huh?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:25 | Link to Comment MoneyMonkey
MoneyMonkey's picture

I'll gladly take two of what you're taking.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:22 | Link to Comment yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

China needs to jump start its economy.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:24 | Link to Comment jcaz
jcaz's picture

Nuke 'em.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:23 | Link to Comment bugs_
bugs_'s picture

the front fell off - of both

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:14 | Link to Comment tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

No, that's pretty standard for Chinese women.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:28 | Link to Comment Shadow750
Shadow750's picture

This is almost exactly the scenario we suggested back in September.  China is becoming increasingly bold, partly because they beleive they can significantly damage the economy of the West through cyber attacks if they are provoked, cornered or losing face.

For more on a China/USA confrontation and how  this may involve the internationall payments and settlements system, see   http://www.brokenmirrors.ca/?p=252

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:43 | Link to Comment JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

How the hell does a Chinese ship end up in South China Sea? This is a clear and deliberate provocation!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:27 | Link to Comment fijisailor
fijisailor's picture

If its like when I was in the service they were smoking dope on the fantail.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:17 | Link to Comment tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

And I always thought that was a smokescreen.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:27 | Link to Comment Trimmed Hedge
Trimmed Hedge's picture

We could kill a billion chinks, and they'd still have like a billion left...

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:35 | Link to Comment mumcard
mumcard's picture

They have over 300 million men that are military aged, and 10 million more every year.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:20 | Link to Comment tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

Lucky for us big ocean betwixt.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:54 | Link to Comment Dr. Bonzo
Dr. Bonzo's picture

Sssssshhhhhh, don't tell anyone, but they're buying Detroit.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 22:32 | Link to Comment fingulas
fingulas's picture

I hear this bullshit argument all the time.  Try this:

 

Calculate how much fuel, food, water, and time it takes to move 300 million men ONE MILE. 

 

Then you'll see how useful that number really is.

 

300 million men in your rear when your fuel supply is cut off is a liability, not an asset.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:58 | Link to Comment pupdog1
pupdog1's picture

You never want to say to a Chinaman "You're one in a million!"

It's considered an insult.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:12 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

Or ask a Puerto Rican window washer to get them "Spic and span."

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:30 | Link to Comment Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

You're starting to sound like Mao.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:38 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

The "Great Leap Forward into Starvation" was indeed the mattering thing.

Let 1,000,000 machine guns bloom!

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:34 | Link to Comment fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

My back! My neck and my back! I'm suing you all for 150 thousand dollars! But I'll settle out of international court right now for $3 and some jawbreakers.

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 19:25 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

what happens when eveyrbody needs 'Growth' and there is no growth to be had?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 21:22 | Link to Comment tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

Little blue pill?

Fri, 12/13/2013 - 18:33 | Link to Comment WOAR
WOAR's picture

Well, this place seems as good a place as any to put this.

I go to Air Force basic on Monday, and while many of you are against the MIC (understandably), I'd just like to let you know it's been a pleasure meeting all of you. Hedgeless Horseman, WilliamBanzai, George Washington...it's been great reading your posts. I'll keep my eyes open while I'm gone.

I'll send you guys a postcard from Guam when I get back to using a computer (since it's looking like that's where the WOAR is going to be).

Best of luck to all the Zero Hedgers out there! Prep accordingly! And remember, on a long enough timeline...

P.S. - The MIC is my hedge against the FSA. I won't see any EBT card users showing up at any AF Bases...

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!