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As Bitcoin Transaction Volume Triples Since October, Europe Prepares To Regulate, Tax The Digital Currency

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Representing numbers that would put the adoption curve of Obamacare to shame, the Bitcoin equivalents of Paypal, BitPay, announced last week that it has now processed over $100 million in BTC transactions in 2013, has increased its merchant base to over 15,500 approved merchants in over 200 countries, but most importantly, has seen a surge in the number of merchants using its BTC payment pricing plan, by 50% since October while the volume of transactions has tripled. While the surge in the currency adoption has matched the explosive rise in the USD-value of the currency, the news should comfort any lingering doubts whether Bitcoin is a credible payment system.

From the BitPay press release:

BitPay Inc, the world leader in business solutions for virtual currencies, announces it has processed over $100 million in transactions this year, and has increased its merchant base to over 15,500 approved merchants in 200 countries. Since the announcement of the new All Inclusive Pricing Plan in October, along with the integration with Shopify in November, the number of new merchants has increased over 50% and the transaction volume has tripled.

 

"This year, the 2013 holiday season was Adafruit's biggest ever. We are delighted to offer bitcoin payments via BitPay to our community and customers. It was fast and easy, hundreds of orders and happy customers getting educational electronics, using bitcoin!" shared Limor Fried, Founder and Engineer with Adafruit.

 

Bitcoin has "clear potential for growth and could become a major means of payment for online transactions” a Bank of America analyst told CNBC. As the number of Bitcoin users continues to increase, merchants such as Adafruit, BTCTrip, Alliance Virtual Offices, and Clearly Canadian, see the value of working with BitPay to help expand their business.

Which explains why Europe, which over a year was the first entity to cry foul about Bitcoin (recall from November 2012: "The ECB Explains What A Ponzi Scheme Is; Awkward Silence Follows") when the USD-price of one BTC was still in the double digits, is doubling down in its fight against the fiat alternative, this time as the European Union's top banking regulator is preparing to actively supervise the virtual currency. From Bloomberg:

Trading Bitcoins could bleed you dry, the European Union’s top banking regulator said as it weighs whether to regulate virtual currencies. Thefts from digital wallets have exceeded $1 million in some cases and traders aren’t protected against losses if their virtual exchange collapses, the European Banking Authority said today in a report warning consumers about the risks of cybermoney.

 

Virtual currencies such as Bitcoin have come under increased scrutiny from regulators and prosecutors around the globe. China’s central bank barred financial institutions from handling Bitcoin transactions last week and German police arrested two suspects in a fraud probe into illegally generated Bitcoins worth 700,000 euros ($963,000).

 

“The technology is still relatively immature and lacks the infrastructure, regulation and understanding of the risks that are taken for granted in conventional financial systems,” Matt Rees, assistant director at Ernst & Young LLP, said in an e-mail. “It is not surprising then that thefts, frauds and other deceptions are currently commonplace.”

 

Since Bitcoins exist as software, the virtual currency isn’t controlled by any government or central bank. The digital money emerged in 2008, designed by a programmer or group of programmers going under the name of Satoshi Nakamoto, whose real identity remains unknown.

 

The virtual currency gained credibility last month after law enforcement and securities agencies said in U.S. Senate hearings that it could be a legitimate means of exchange. The price of Bitcoins topped $1,000 as speculators anticipated broader use of digital money.

Because, you see, it is the possibility of theft that has regulators worried, not that alternative currencies could undermine the fiat system (especially in Europe where the artificially common currency is not exactly the world's most admired construct) the world is so hooked on.

So what does Europe propose? Simple: do more of what it truly excels at: tax stuff.

People holding virtual currencies may be subject to value-added or capital gains taxes, the EBA said.

 

The government of Norway, Scandinavia’s richest nation, said it would treat Bitcoins as an asset and levy capital gains tax on them.

 

“Bitcoins don’t fall under the usual definition of money or currency,” Hans Christian Holte, director general of taxation in Norway, said in an interview.

 

For virtual currencies to be regulated in the EU, the EBA would have to get approval from the European Commission, the 28-nation bloc’s executive arm.

 

We “support the EBA warning to consumers on the risks associated with virtual currencies,” Michel Barnier, the EU’s financial services commissioner, said in an e-mail.

In other words, it is only a matter of time before Europe does all it can to make the use of Bitcoin even more prohibitive, which in a Europe that is flooded with bad debt, with a banking sector whose credibility is non-existent resulting in loan "creation" plunging at a record pace, and a banking union "resolution mechanism" that is as improbable now as it has ever been, means more deposit bail-ins in a form that "fall under the usual definition of money" are just a matter of time.

 


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Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:27 | Link to Comment VD
VD's picture

taxes will surely make BTC more robust and safer.. FUCK OFF GOV.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:42 | Link to Comment Clint Liquor
Clint Liquor's picture

Ronald Reagan described how Central Planners deal with new business:

If it is moving, tax it.

If it keeps moving, regulate it.

When (due to taxation and regulation) it quits moving, subsidize it.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:53 | Link to Comment BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Interesting Chit...

Translated: what the SA signer was really saying

Translation: "I'm just a random chancer! Shhh! Don't let on!"
Translation: "Look, I'm not *completely* talentless. I can pat my head and rub my tummy at the same time."
Translation: "Blimey, this speech isn't half dragging on. Anyone got a fag?"
Translation: "Come on, let's get this party started! Big fish, little fish, cardboard box!"
 Translation: "Still, at least I didn't take a selfie"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nelson-mandela/10511569/Transl...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:58 | Link to Comment BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Bye Bye Electronic Binary Bitcoin...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:01 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

My guess is people are finding it so difficult to find anyone to transact with they're having to go through an exchange.

Talk about shot in the foot. It's a bit like bragging about having an ATM somewhere in Canada. WTF.

Yeah, fat lot of use that is. Not

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:30 | Link to Comment markmotive
markmotive's picture
Smart people can't agree on the value of bitcoin...so why should anyone be so confident in its utility? Mickey Malka, Jim Rickards Argue Over Bitcoin Utility, Longevity

http://www.planbeconomics.com/2013/06/mickey-malka-jim-rickards-argue-ov...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:06 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

I am a bit (coin?) conflicted..

On one hand the digital precious number is an attractive concept but now that the .gov’s and banks are all over it, it has much less appeal.

If I want precious numbers controlled by banker or government criminals I will buy some GLD, SLV or some Comex GS.

Or maybe I will float a boat that will sink in some erstwhile lake.

My two lips will kiss the boat goodbye.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:11 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

It seems that every article posted here is interpreted as "Oh no!  This is the end of Bitcoin!".  In reality it is hard enough to proove that you run a Bitcoin client, that you own any Bitcoin or that you purchased any Bitcoin using cash or bank-transfer.

So the governments can tax to their hearts content.  I am not in the least bit concerned as anyone with a brain can easily thwart their best efforts.  Bitcoin is a regulator's hell.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:17 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

Cool.. I hope it puts much sand in their KY.

..and I might want to trade a little Ag or Au for some digits if it breaks through the banker/gov syndicate.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:04 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Come to Papa my precious Au...!  When I see that it is easy & secure to get Au for BTC that is one good thing.

The BIG THING will be once one (or more) or our bearing suppliers accepts BTC.  Then the game has changed.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 17:57 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Check out the humble childhood (at 10 - 11 yrs old anyway) of the Humble Bearing.  Near Bethune, SC, in 1967 or so.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxnHmH-02CQINDhocUVWUU55d2hKeGJ6MndMYWRXV29EX3Bz/edit?

 

EDIT:

I just closed the link at chumbawamba's suggestion until I get it copyrighted.  Can't be too careful...

 

EDIT:

This a little better:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxnHmH-02CQIY29tQ0NSSkFIY0U/edit?usp=sh...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:18 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

'In reality it is hard enough to proove that you run a Bitcoin client, that you own any Bitcoin or that you purchased any Bitcoin using cash or bank-transfer.'

So where do all these hard facts you keep referring to come from then?

Is someone just making this shit up?

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:25 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Okay, so explain how a government is going to tie your download of the Bitcoin client to your computer to your person?  Then explain how they are going to tie Bitcoin purchased with cash on the street being sent to your newly generated Bitcoin address?  Now explain why a person wishing to hide their Bitcoin couldn't just put it inside an encrypted volume?

Facts?  Yes indeed.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:53 | Link to Comment fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

LEO's never,ever,take computer when they arrest someone for a digital crime. Once in custody with chains on your feet most will rat or comply.

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:01 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

There's no reason for an astute Bitcoiner to wind up in that position in the first place is my point.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:38 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

..keep digging

sooner or later somebody is going to hit the vein.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 18:35 | Link to Comment SolarSystem1932
SolarSystem1932's picture

Yes, I was confident in my ~astutefulness~ at my first wedding also...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 18:47 | Link to Comment threeputting
threeputting's picture

This is BS and you know it. Bitcoin is the least anonymous currency ever conceived of!

The blockchain is a record of every bitcoin transaction ever made. If you've ever bought on an exchange, your personal info is tied to your wallet. If you've ever accessed your wallet and made transactions on your computer, your IP address is tied to it. Every address you ever sent or received from is on permanent display for everyone to see. Taxing bitcoin would be the most lucrative thing ever for a government, because they could verify 100% of your taxable income. 

 

There are ways to create an anonymous wallet, but 99.9% of the population is not tech savvy enough to pull it off.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:04 | Link to Comment Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

This is mostly correct for most people as you summarized.   Anonymous wallets are achievable and much more approachable with the latest software.    Modern wallets are deterministic and make use of new accounts each time.   As long as people get out of the comfortable habit of aggregating all coins into a single account and get used to the idea of one time accounts, privacy is preserved.

I can confirm that this change of thinking is not easy and takes practice, but the newer software is making this process more transparent.   The IP address can also be tracked as you mention, but one may broadcast the transactions from any IP address in addition to using SSL to the hub node of choice to conceal the data that was sent.  This does require a tech savvy user, but is being improved although more slowly.   

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:08 | Link to Comment threeputting
threeputting's picture

I was reading about 'Dark Wallet' a while back, maybe it will make a difference.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 20:41 | Link to Comment Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

I hadn't heard of it until your comment.  Checked it out briefly, seems they are already behind.  I could be wrong.  Currently, I'd recommend The Armory.  Electrum also has deterministic wallets.   An example of the use is that one may generate addresses on the fly that you know you will have access to.  A whole sequence of them that have never been used before for which you can access whenever you want in the future.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 01:37 | Link to Comment boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

"Europe prepares to regulate it".

If they can find it, to regulate it, it isn't secure/obscure enough. They're missing the point.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:10 | Link to Comment ncdirtdigger
ncdirtdigger's picture

In no time short, you and your bitcrappers will be sitting in a cell next to a pothead, lamenting how the 'man' is keeping you down.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:22 | Link to Comment bentaxle
bentaxle's picture

...and him replying...pot Bitchez!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 21:53 | Link to Comment Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

That will only happen if the bitcoiners turn as stupid as that neanderthalish subset of pot smokers who begged for the government to "Tax our Pot" --  which will get them (potheads) punished for growing their own or possessing "non-regulated" stuff with the end result being the hemp industry under the control of Monsanto FDA Big FarmaPharma and Company.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 07:13 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You mean Free Room & Board & Healthcare?
Plus free internet(s)?
This may actualy become a Feature (untaxable benefit) for an ever growing number of people, the way things are going.
;-)

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:57 | Link to Comment daxtonbrown
daxtonbrown's picture

The gov can collect my Bitcoin tax the same time it collects my obamacare tax. About when hell freezes over and the sun goes cold.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 20:45 | Link to Comment chemystical
chemystical's picture

"In reality it is hard enough to proove that you run a Bitcoin client, that you own any Bitcoin or that you purchased any Bitcoin using cash or bank-transfer"

Are you suggesting that there are intermediaries who will defy the laws of the country's in which they operate?  Or that they they will emerge?  I can bypass these intermediaries, surely, but then am I left relying on the honesty or solvency of the person or business with whom I am exchanging cc or goods/services?

 

From Bitpay's Terms of Use:

https://bitpay.com/terms

"In order to provide the Services, we may share information about you and your BitPay account with third parties, including but not limited to your bank and purchasers."

"We may require additional information about you (including any person signing below or otherwise agreeing to the Terms on behalf of the merchant) such as, for instance, your date of birth, tax identification number or government-issued identification, and we may also obtain information about you from third parties, such as credit bureaus and identity verification services. We have the right to reject your account registration, or to later close your BitPay account, if you do not provide us with accurate, complete and satisfactory information?"

While you may have a brain and may attempt to thwart their best efforts, do you think that every counterparty in the chain is willing to risk fines and/or prison for the privilege of being your accomplice?  What you're suggesting seems to require the growth of outlaw banks and outlaw merchants and outlaw intermediaries.

 

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 00:02 | Link to Comment warish
warish's picture

fonestar: You seem to be the BTC wizard. Can you answer the scaleability issue ? Blockchain is at 12 Gb and has grown from 4Gb in one year. Eventually it will need to be centrally managed in some way. That destroys the whole P2P angle. BTC is a scaleability nightmare. Also, what will be the incentive for people to maintain the blockchain as it gets harder to mine for BTC ? It also seems to be very environmentally unfriendly in that it takes a lot of storage space and power, why ? Remove all the money making speculation from BTC and you seem to have a good idea, (low or no fee transactions), that is backed up by a flawed technology. Where is the virtual currency that is backed by something of value ? Maybe some sort of peer 2 peer way of securing the backing asset ? I am sure something better will gain traction, it will just take the ultimate BTC crash for it to emerge. 

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 03:30 | Link to Comment Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

bitcoin is sand in the machine - what's not to like? - the enama of my enemy is my...something something...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:32 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

but now that the .gov’s and banks are all over it, it has much less appeal.

Fuck them and their regs!

It's time to take the risk ACT anyway!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:33 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

All they have is threats, these threats may shake out some of the weak hands and non-believers which will present buying opportunities.  Eventually everyone will see that governments are just organized threats and the tide will turn against them.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:29 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

so far only the USA, Canada and Mexico are expressing confidence in "co-existence" with bitcoin. I think a big reason is no value added tax...lat alone a totalitarian oligarchy to support....just a "rule by monied interest." bitcoin is clearly not a threat...indeed is it's exact opposite. I agree...I would oppose "the bit coin" with great care. this is the answer to Schrodinger's Cat Thesis presented here and here only...that money can/cannot exist in this way. This is now proven false by bitcoin as it simulatanuosly exists/does not exist in the form of a "peer to peer networking effect" and in spite of this is indeed deal. keep it coming fonestar...your up arrows are growing.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 20:55 | Link to Comment chemystical
chemystical's picture

We are in agreement.  However, they have never been anything other than organized and codified threats, (albeit a few with benign intent at the origin). 

You are suggesting then that this will be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and that the previously duped public with ally with the previously aware (but aquiescent) public to forge revolutions worldwide?

I might be ok with the outcome but I'll for damn sure short the likelihood of it happening in the near term - much less its happening due to "Btc".

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:35 | Link to Comment Manthong
Manthong's picture

um.. it is not about cowing..

it is about maneuvering.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:48 | Link to Comment CH1
CH1's picture

Fair enough.

Peace.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:37 | Link to Comment Pseudonymous
Pseudonymous's picture

There is a world of difference between "controlled by" and being "all over it", or, to be more thorough, flooding media with hype, scorn, misquotations, mistranslations, white propaganda, black propaganda, grey propaganda, any-color-of-the-rainbow propaganda, rants, threats, sycophancy and a few sincere words here and there that you can't help but being skeptical about after all the lies and thoughtlessness before them. So acting on what such people say is not rational. Acting on what they do might be, but there is little knowledge (meaning facts, with evidence) of any action, except for the US government holding a bunch of Silk Road's and Dread Pirate Roberts' seized bitcoins and the harassment and refusal of services to some businesses and individuals dealing with bitcoins.

And that is not to say that you should be scared of anything. On the contrary, be smart and don't let them touch your money!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:39 | Link to Comment willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Exactly! Stupid governments farting in the wind.

And where is the proof that Germany arrested a person that was conterfeiting thousands of Bitcoins? I call bullshit to that dismal .gov attempt to imply they give a rat's ass about anything over and above their monopoly of money creation.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 18:58 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

Are you talking about bitcoin or gold?

Or for that matter, any foreign currency?

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:20 | Link to Comment PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Possibly, perhaps not. This is a very disruptive technology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRqgrCrzTJA

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:31 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

It's pretty obvious from the commentary that the majority of posters on this site spent the 2000's living in a closet.  They totally missed out on the P2P revolution (probably don't even know what that means) while the rest of us were stealing "premium content" and bypassing CSS and DRM.

The battle of Napster was lost.  But in that loss it created better, stronger systems.  More determined hackers and the rise of political pirates in Europe.  This is a beautiful turning point in history where we see people rise up to take back their sense of personal empowerment from the corporations.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:50 | Link to Comment PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Well there is a strong PM community at ZH, I consider myself among them. And a not unnatural initial reaction I suppose is the perception that bitcoin is a threat to PMs. It siphons "money" (fiat!) away. My reaction after taking the time to seriously look into bitcoin earlier this year is, ok yeah - so what? Bitcoin "thows sand in the gears" of the ponzi fiat system. In the long run fiat is dead. Bitcoin and PMs complement and highlight each others attributes nicely!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 18:18 | Link to Comment stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

BITCOIN!

buckets and buckets of bitcoin!

liberty blitzkreig just posted a link with a handy dandy reference chart chock full of bitcoin sites, some of them are very cool:

http://www.venturescanner.com/scans/bitcoin

 

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:08 | Link to Comment Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

Agree, Bitcoiners are a subset of stackers.  Another subset of stacker are those who scream "Ponzi!" at every new financial instrument.   Frankly, they are usually right.

Usually.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:16 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

"Bye Bye Electronic Binary Bitcoin..."

 

How does this hurt Bitcoin at all?  Maybe it scares two or three grey-hairs out of purchasing BTC?

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:00 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

So, from 3 to 9 transactions in what, 3 months...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:57 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

.

Because, you see, it is the possibility of theft that has regulators worried

That's true, and you can absolutely believe the European Banking Authority when they say this. They simply want to extend to Bitcoin all of the protections provided by European financial institutions to their customers (e.g., Cypriot bank depositors).

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:06 | Link to Comment dasein211
dasein211's picture

And the EU would NEVER steal your money! Just ask Cypress!! That was billions compared to what.... 10 million in theft!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:27 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

you can walk straight and you can chew gum but can you walk straight and chew gum?

The public ledger has been raped by the banks; to balance the books something needs to be done; thats learning to walk straight. 

Bail ins is the only way to curb banks who participated in the previous scam leading to bail outs; thats like chewing gum.

 Bail in banking whom you bailed out five years ago is walking straight and chewing gum. They were warned they did shit all to stop the scam. They made it FOUR times worse in the interim.

Time out team scammers. 

I know this is not fair but scamming the public was not fair and those crony congressmen did nothing. At least EU is doing something to right the wrong. Its not enuff but its better than NOTHING or status quo. 

There should be no free lunch for the cheaters as there will be no free lunch for the food stampers when that stops. 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:41 | Link to Comment czardas
czardas's picture

What would be remarkable is if the EU did NOT tax the bitcoin.   This was so predictable it barely registers on the Yawn Scale.   Europe has tried everything to keep afloat- taking 50% of income, cutting defense spending to nil, slashing R&D, borrowing to the hilt, denying medical coverage over 75, etc.    

I propose "Hunger Games -  EU" where folks over 70 "volunteer" to be euthanized.  A Grand Winner would receive $10M Euros for his family or charity.  Benefits would be enormous and it could even be organized into competitive matches - Holland vs Hungary or Greece vs Bulgaria.  Citizens would be berated for not doing their patriotic duty, etc and the NPR tyoes could speak lovingly about social cohesion, sacrifice and collective will.  It's almost perfect.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:57 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"Because, you see, it is the possibility of THEFT that has regulators WORRIED"

Oh yes,they are worried all right. They want to commit THEFT on your bitcoins, but they are WORRIED that they won't be able to figure out a way to do so.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:18 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Satoshi's creation is the Aikido currency.  Every effort the establishment makes to tax, regulate, prohibit the currency winds up having its energy deflected and turned 180 degrees on the attacker.

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:57 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:49 | Link to Comment dasein211
dasein211's picture

The real fireworks come when the ECB tries to bail in a bunch of banks. Smart Europeans will have the Bitcoin(and physical gold) backdoor ready when that comes. Let idiots who keep their money in a bank find out the cost of their stupidity!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:57 | Link to Comment SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

People who have money in the bank won't lose anything. They'll get to keep 75% of their cash and receive a bond for the other 25%. The bond won't be redeemable until maturity which will be about the year 2187 AD.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:43 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

 SilverIsKing         They'll get to keep 75% of their cash and receive a bond for the other 25%.

 

Comment:

Your numbers are backwards. They might be able to keep 25% and the remaining 75% will be in bonds that will mature beyond the owners death.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:52 | Link to Comment RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

The bond won't be redeemable until maturity which will be about the year 2187 AD.

Oh shit! Mark your calendar - False Flag then war in October, 2186.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 21:07 | Link to Comment Pseudonymous
Pseudonymous's picture

Payable in death and destruction? You are describing a liability.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 21:06 | Link to Comment chemystical
chemystical's picture

Bank?  The PTB have far more interest in your IRA and 401K.  Ask the Poles.

In the US first the serfs were told that they were too stupid to provide for their retirement, thus Uncle would manage that account for them, and non-voluntary "contributions" as a % of your income is what was confiscated.

Next, they'll be told the same about their IRA and 401K?  The question is what justification will be provided.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:50 | Link to Comment uranian
uranian's picture

Beat me to it, so I'll second your wise words; fuck you, government.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:51 | Link to Comment Mr Pink
Mr Pink's picture

I'm guessing all of you BTC haters agree with this guy...make sure to read the whole article the last sentence is worth it

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/12/why-bitcoin-will-never-be-a-currency-in-2-charts/282364/#comments

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:03 | Link to Comment Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

HAHAHAHAHHAA   LOL!    ROTFLMFAO  !!!

HEY VD AND FUCKSTAR......there goes your LITTLE HOBBY  !!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA  !!   WWWOooooo   HOooooooo !!!!      GOODBYE.....FREEDOM TECH !!!!!!       HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA .

I TOLD YOU SILLY CHILDREN THAT THE BIG BOYS ARE JUST LETTNG YOU PLAY UNTIL THEY DECIDE TO SHUT YOU DOWN OR TAKE THEIR CUT !!!!!!

THE MAFIA IS CALLING BOYS !!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA !!!!!!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:14 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Hey dipshit, in case you didn't bother reading the article this has ZERO effect on Bitcoin.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:35 | Link to Comment ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

Anytime someone sounds as crazy as you just did, I'd question them even if they said the sky was blue. 

What were you trying to accomplish with your CAPS and 18 laughs?  You look like an idiot.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:34 | Link to Comment bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

from the 'if you can see it, tax it' school of theft.

hell, for that matter tax it even if you can't.  (school of theft amendment one).

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:38 | Link to Comment czardas
czardas's picture

Reminds me of the recent "Marketplace Fairness Act" (why do these things always sound so Soviet?)    I protested to our two Senators (Tennessee) and was told the internet tax was for the good of the state.   I pointed out that we have a SURPLUS each year, didn't need the tax so why take more disposable income?  I then suggested if they really want to help local businesses, why not give a tax break?  No reply yet. 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:35 | Link to Comment booboo
booboo's picture

The Good Ship Lolipop has run aground, the .Gov thugs don't need to locate the buyers in the transaction when the seller has a glass front.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:34 | Link to Comment NIHILIST CIPHER
NIHILIST CIPHER's picture

ZH is a pro Bitcoin site                   fonestar

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:00 | Link to Comment NIHILIST CIPHER
NIHILIST CIPHER's picture

If you like your bitcoin you can keep your bitcoin.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:06 | Link to Comment Tim_
Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:13 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin is a pro-Bitcoin currency.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:07 | Link to Comment fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

ZH is a community of individuals seeking information and truth.

 

 

O AND FUCK. BITCOIN

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:22 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

"O AND FUCK. BITCOIN"

 

Fuck yourself moron.  Bitcoin is here to stay.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:05 | Link to Comment Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

HAHAHAHAHAH   !!!!

OH YEAHHHHH......you better BELIEVE that Shitcoin is here to stay.  That's another perpetual income stream for the governments of the world.

ROTFLMFAO.......

Welcome to Prison Planet Fuckstar !      LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:10 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Still waiting for any feasible plan as to how the governments would make that happen?  Of course you don't have any, which is why you need to manufacture conspiracies and pull them out your ass.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:31 | Link to Comment fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Only in cyberspace which is exactly where your bitcoins live. So you agree with my statement about fuck bitcoins.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:40 | Link to Comment I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

Govt wants in on it - FU all Govt's

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:43 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

I am Jobe       Govt wants in on it - FU all Govt's

 

Comment:

Bitcoin is such a small market, any government could take it over and manipulate easily by being owners of bitcoins.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:41 | Link to Comment PaperBear
PaperBear's picture

To be subject to value-added or capital gains taxes someone with BTC would have to exchange them for national currency - f**k that idea.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:43 | Link to Comment CashCowEquity
CashCowEquity's picture

Tax anything that works. Signed the Govt.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:44 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

The war against bankers continues to grow. The rate and number of fronts continues to increase. Little Ben and Krugman are spending more time shacked up in their underground bunker. I'm headed to Germany to celibrate my anscestors defeat of the Kaiser's tax collectors (on a bitcoin ticket). Long live the revolution.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:19 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Watch them flee the raging Bitbull!!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:48 | Link to Comment Sufiy
Sufiy's picture


Central Banks Launching Worldwide Coordinated Attack On Bitcoin

 Technical analysis for Bitcoin is basically meaningless with so much noise in the print, but the chart below from TheArmoTrader tells the story better than thousand words. After all recent events described below we are issuing our Warning and the line in the sand is $800 for Bitcoin now. With coordinated attack Bitcoin can be pushed below it, everything is prepared for it now. We do not have any inside, but has been in the Gold market and observed its manipulation enough to see what is coming. If somebody is interested now to Kill the Bitcoin brilliant idea hijacked by speculators with  Crashing The Bubble - it is time. Whether there are enough interested parties to do so  you have to decide for yourself. Will it happen now? We will see very soon. The most unfortunate thing is that some influential people are leading the uninformed "freedom fighters" towards just one more slaughterhouse now.

 

http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/european-banking-authority-warns.htm...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:53 | Link to Comment dasein211
dasein211's picture

Oh I hope so! Would love to get back in the game in the double digits! I don't see much the govt can do short of closing the internet.... And that ain't happening!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:05 | Link to Comment JustPrintMoreDuh
JustPrintMoreDuh's picture

You just had to say that!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:08 | Link to Comment dasein211
dasein211's picture

Hell yeah! I buy dips in gold and silver as well. The dollar has dipped 99% :... But I ain't buying that shit!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:47 | Link to Comment Matt
Matt's picture

A shooting war between China and Japan would crash bitcoin 90%+ I'm sure. On the other hand, bail-ins and/or capital controls in a major western country could push it up 900%.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:02 | Link to Comment Alternative
Alternative's picture

Not necessarily. It will put a lot of BTCs out of circulation but to be sure of the consequences of that you must be God.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:57 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@Sufiy

You mean something that goes UP can also go DOWN? Horrors!

Like I've explained over and OVER to the barking seal trolls here, we're quite aware of the past fluctuations of price, and are actually EXPECTING A DECLINE so we can load up before the next surge past Gold parity.

But keep on acting like you just discovered long-term charts...

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:18 | Link to Comment Sufiy
Sufiy's picture

It is different level and different situation now: China has banned financial institutions from Bitcoin and any goods and seervices to be sold in Bitcoin. Central banks are issuing warnings, next step will be regulation.

 

Central Banks are getting all together now to celebrate Federal Reserve 100 Year Anniversary. If somebody thought that Bitcoin with other "listed" 42 Crypto-Currencies can challenge the banksters for real, please think twice and take at least the profit! We need more smart people with capital to join the real values when Gold and Silver will be shining again after Special Op "Gold 2.0" to distract 99% from Gold will be over. FED is still silent, but crackdown on Bitcoin is already in place. NowCentral Banks of Australia and New Zealand have issued Bitcoin warning.All these actions are coordinated, as you can see now. Pump it Up and Crash it hard - how many will be left to support the brilliant idea? We will note one more time very important coincidence: according to the reports JPMorgan is Net Long Gold now. Crashing Bitcoin will send Gold much higher, maybe JPMorgan knows something the others don't?

 

http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/european-banking-authority-warns.htm...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:31 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@Sufiy

Again, you take events that we're all aware of and try to spin it into some kind of "Daily Mail" sort of tabloid-froth.

China has ring-fenced bitcoin like they have with their "Special Administrative Regions". Private citizen transactions can still occur. Trading on BTC China, the largest exchange in China, is still happening, at a blistering 150,000 BTC a day. Doesn't sound like a lot of fear to me. There are many listings e-bay style, for products where they accept Bitcoin, because between citizens its just FINE.

Central Banks are having a party, eh? I guess they'll need to print more money for the confetti, lol.

You keep pretending that precious metals and Bitcoin are at odds. Not really, they're both tools against overreaching sovereign entities and the legacy corrupt financial system. I don't get this "ALL OR NOTHING" bullshit. You can have gold maples and a USB thumbdrive with Bitcoin on it - they won't combust or explode if you put them next to each other.

And the whole thing about "Crashing bitcoin will send Gold much higher"... uh... what? Is there some actual negative correlation beyond chance that actually means something here? That's crazy. Like trying to time a stock purchase based on the price of thumbtacks.

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:49 | Link to Comment Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Just refuse to pay the theft .....simple solution....

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:53 | Link to Comment silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

btc can beimpossible to tax, impossible to regulate...just stay in crypto or go to gold-silver,do NOT go to fiat paper and your golden..

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:42 | Link to Comment Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

that is wildly optomistrict

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:49 | Link to Comment sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

silvertrain    btc can beimpossible to tax, impossible to regulate...just stay in crypto or go to gold-silver,do NOT go to fiat paper and your golden..

 

Comment:

You fail to understand that every bitcoin transaction requires a starting point of actually buying bitcoins by converting fiat or some other value to obtain those bitcoins. Right now, they are called exchanges. Whatever internet company I use to make this exchange becomes a NSA wet dream and a place for the government to tax.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:18 | Link to Comment PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Not true that every bitcoin transaction goes through an exchange. Bitcoins can be gifted, bitcoins can be exchanged person to person for things of value - think barter. Also localbitcoins where you can meet in Starbucks and exchange cash directly for bitcoin. And even if bitcoins are bought through an exchange for fiat, ownership of said bitcoins can be obfuscated. And don't forget that though bitcoin is only pseudo-anonymous at the moment (the addresses/hashed public keys are visible to everyone - but not the owners of those addresses) work is being done to make it truly anonymous.("untainted")

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:34 | Link to Comment Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

BTC is money dude. You can earn bitcoin by doing work. Maybe YOUR boss doesn't pay in BTC but that Kentucky cops boss does.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:52 | Link to Comment Tinky
Tinky's picture

Sonofabit!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:55 | Link to Comment hound dog vigilante
hound dog vigilante's picture

ECB/EBA's comments on Bitcoin 'regulation' demonstrate just how ignorant/arrogant these asshats are...  they have neither the technical understanding nor the legal jurisdiction to do much of anything... except talk, whine and pose.

Watch as Bitcoin becomes the de facto currency of choice in southern europe as more of those countries fail & implode as Greece has, and watch how powerless the ECB is to stop any of it....

ECB/Europe is all bark, no bite.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 12:55 | Link to Comment Sufiy
Sufiy's picture

Worldwide coordinated plan of attack:

And the punchline and footprint for further actions against Crypto-Currencies:


"Transactions in virtual currencies are public, but the owners and recipients of these transactions are not. Transactions are largely untraceable, and provide virtual currency consumers with a high degree of anonymity. It is therefore possible that the virtual currency network will be used for transactions associated with criminal activities, including money laundering. This misuse could affect you, as law enforcement agencies may decide to close exchange platforms and prevent you from accessing or using any funds that the platforms may be holding for you." http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/european-banking-authority-warns.htm...

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:00 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@Sufiy

Hey, this reminds me of another "coordinated attack" that doesn't end up doing jack shit... hmm, what was it called... oh yeah, CURRENCY INTERVENTIONS. Remember when Japan would just go apeshit and buy the fuck out of the Yen? And how it didn't end up doing a fucking thing 24 hours later?

Good times.

If that is what we have to look forward to, I say BRING IT ON, you stupid central banking fucks.

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:19 | Link to Comment Sufiy
Sufiy's picture

They are paving the way to shutdown crucial parts of the Bitcoin system, to outlaw it effectevely:

 

It is therefore possible that the virtual currency network will be used for transactions associated with criminal activities, including money laundering. This misuse could affect you, as law enforcement agencies may decide to close exchange platforms and prevent you from accessing or using any funds that the platforms may be holding for you."

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:35 | Link to Comment PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Good luck with that. Outlaw bitcoin. Is that kinda like outlaw drugs? Outlaw barter? Outlaw prostitution? Outlaw Bittorrent? Shutdown The Pirate Bay? Yes you can shut down exchanges and this may hold things up for a while, but you cannot outlaw IDEAS! And the ideas and the proof that they work are out there. Bitcoin is kicking off a decentralized revolution!

Cat. Say good-bye to Bag.

Systeme D will run circles around corrupt governments every time.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 16:01 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1 for "Systeme D"

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:05 | Link to Comment agent default
agent default's picture

"Thefts from digital wallets have exceeded $1 million in some cases and traders..."  Blah, blah blah.  FUCK YOU EU.  I would rather be in the same room with a thousand thieves than have to deal with a bunch of professional career criminals the likes of you. 

On a more ominous note.  Since virtual coin mining and transfer is pretty hard to keep track of as things stand right now, expect more draconian legislation on the internet and all the way down to what you can do with your computer in the name of fighting tax evasion.

FUCK YOU EU. 

MAY A THOUSAND FUKUSIMAS LEAK ALL OVER YOU.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:11 | Link to Comment dasein211
dasein211's picture

My guess is that the platforms will move to more friendly countries to transact business.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:17 | Link to Comment agent default
agent default's picture

You will take your computer to a friendly jurisdiction?  This will be applied at your end.  Quite simply enact legislation to require your virtual wallet to forward a copy of transactions and specific coin hashes to the IRS.  That simple.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:44 | Link to Comment QEpp
QEpp's picture

VPN tunnels are available and fairly cheap.  The Feds would only be able to track money going into and out of the virtual wallet (bitcoins <--> fiat $), just like paper gold.  But if you are compensated or purchase things directly in bitcoins, they would not know about your gain or loss and one could simply tell the IRS that no transactions / gains / losses were made.  Then it would just be treated like a precious metal ETF sitting in an investment account.  But the benefit is that the government would not be able to sieze the assets without the owner's coororation.  So in dire straits, if the owner is able to leave the country and go someplace that does not extradite they could hold onto their assets.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:15 | Link to Comment JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

In other news:

NSA officials consider Edward Snowden amnesty in return for documents


• Key official tells CBS 'it's worth having a conversation'
• State Department and other key figures oppose deal

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/nsa-edward-snowden-amnesty-documents

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:31 | Link to Comment dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

if Snowden is the real deal, he'll never go for it.........

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:42 | Link to Comment GreatUncle
GreatUncle's picture

Love the publicity stunt at the end of the article.

The issue is? A system that you can work within privately with no backdoor left open for anybody.

Without it you have no security and as a fine upstanding person in a population the national security argument flew out of the window. Now if every individual was secure, then you watch the transformation of the national security argument, the nation 100% secure because nobody would want to lose it.

Snowden would never have been employed to do as he did neither because none of the security was needed as all people are secure.

NATIONAL SECURITY IS A SUPERSET OF THE SECURITY ISSUE OF PEOPLE!

 

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:04 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@JustObserving

Yes, funny isn't it? The NSA doesn't know the full scope of what he took. A bit of a stark contrast to some of the barking seal trolls in here who claim that they have near-omnipotent powers of cryptology and backdoors into Bitcoin.

The NSA is fallible, and so is government. Christ, those idiots can't even lay hands on snowden and ship him off to a torture-friendly jurisdiction, much less make a dent into a cryptocurrency.

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:22 | Link to Comment Hubbs
Hubbs's picture

I jumped on the band wagon buying up some gold just as it breeched the 1,000 oz a few years ago, based on the traditional thinking of historical track record as gold being true money.

But back in the old days, when people were self suffieicnt, i.e, grew their own food, traveled on horse back , and had none of the luxuries we "depend on" today, there was no other competing necessity other than the traditional food, water, protection via musket and bow and arrow.  Gold and silver occupied front and center stage. Sure people borrowed to buy farm land, houses, or farm tools, but no huge flows of money were required (maybe the exception being for war) until true industrialization came about.

 

With humanity now  absolutely dependent on mass farming, just in time replenishment at local Wal Marts, cars and gasoline for transporation, cell phones for communication as a consequnece of out wide spread commuter spawl (don't need to phone someone who is pulling turnips next to you in your garden or driving fence posts), and the use of fiat of currency that has not yet been totally debased, gold has faded from view. Out of "necesssity" we today value automobiles ,gasoline, electricity etc. Thus I hear increasingly of money being represented by a new currency via a basket of goods like oil, grain, Photo-voltaic cells rather than just gold.

 

Thus the new refrain "you can't eat gold".  Gold, it could be argued, is  less desireable now than at any time in human history simply because humanity has broken away, during this exceptional post World War II time of plentiful food, energy,natural resources health care, transporation, security, relatively low popuation density etc from the need for this "barborous relic". But now that the fiat currency age has run  it's course, people turn to bitcoins to deal with the problems of central bank control/ fractional reserve lending, i.e., loss of value via currency printing, and ability of governments to tax and central banks to  control the amount of currency in circulation.

 

So, now I really don't know what to think. A lot of gloom amd doomers are cashing in on the anxiety and uncertainty, to the point that we now have more "experts" offering opinions and sales pitches, than ever.  The whole system is  now such a convoluted mess there is no way to plan for , save or invest for, anything.

 

I think I'll just make sure I don't invest in bitcoins,  the stockmarket, or even buy any more PM "insurance", or contribute to any IRAs. Rather buy dental floss, solar panels, some 1/2 rolls of cloth wire for building chicken coops and runs, underwear. Anything that seems "off the wall" nowdays can't be that wrong.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:28 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

who the hell flosses?   you can have an endless supply of the freebies that are handed out and never used by dentists

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:06 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

I floss, brush and use moutwash daily to keep my original rat-like teeth in proper working condition. Who the hell does not floss? It is part of basic oral hygene.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:34 | Link to Comment agent default
agent default's picture

It boils down to what do you really think? 

Do you believe that the current situation is reversible and we will return to the usual way of life?  If yes, then you don't really need gold. Maybe there is something in virtual currencies though.  I mean after we are done paying off all this debt and restoring competitiveness and productivity and, and...

But if you believe that things will break catastrophically, then learn how to be self sufficient once again,  because those who don't, will learn how to be dead.  Then you need gold you need your canned food, you need your guns, and you also need a marketable trade.  You know, the ones that are looked down upon now. 

And forget about the Bitcoin nonsense.  Good luck with your Bitcoins without power, internet, Wallmart, or trying to explain to those who will by then have lost all faith in anything they cannot hold in their hands what the fuck a Bitcoin is.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:15 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

The problem with the extremist scenario is it rarely comes to pass. So, worst case, Mr. Self-Sufficient has a good garden and a bit of a farming operation. Only problem is, that becomes a target if things go completely haywire.

Now this is where the hard-core preppers start smiling grimly and make oblique references to how much ammo they've 'stacked', and what kind of deals can be had on the rounds they need. Sure thing cowboy, but there may be something you've missed.

Your plan is one large single-point-of-failure.

In technology, you need at least three backups of something (preferably more) to make sure you can reach an uptime target, availability, etc.. Sitting there in your farm bunker, or "funker", with your pile of ammo, you have a few problems.

1.) You are overwhelmed by opposition - unless you're in the most remote location possible, someone is going to come calling, and no, having a mountain of ammo doesn't mean jack if you can't keep up with a incoming horde of people with zero to lose. The kind that would clamber over the recently felled body and use it as a footpath to your demise.

2.) You have a "process failure" - all the ammo in the world isn't going to help if you are trying to sweep a 360 arc and keep the intruders at bay. This also assumes that they haven't made some improvised weapons using gasoline, bottles, and rags. Fire is suprisingly effective in shutting shit down.

Now at this point, everyone is foaming at the mouth screaming "I have hundreds of guns, and they all work perfectly asshole". Yeah, sure. It doesn't have to break in half, you just need a single jam - one bad pull, perhaps in even rarer circumstances, you'll get a part that outright fucking breaks.

What is the procedure when you're under siege and you have to repair something?

Okay, you're now claiming you won't be alone and someone will help you, hand you a gun, etc..

Wonderful, except there's another problem - desperate people don't wait until sunrise to storm the bunker, they come NOW because they need stuff NOW. And it won't just be a few. Word gets out that some guy is holed up with all his shit in one big pile - well, its enough to get a lot of imaginations going.

So, wonder how you're going to fare with sleeping arrangements or watches? Can you trust every single person to be like a soldier for months on end?

Starting to see the grinding reality of your "funker" scenario?

Perhaps not, those that have invested lots of time and money into something tend to be biased.

But maybe, when you're pulling back on whatever beverage you consume, just consider that when you are "playing fort", it may not end up the way you think it will...

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:34 | Link to Comment agent default
agent default's picture

You are imagining some sort of zombie apocalypse here. 

Things are simpler than that. If you choose to live in a small rural community, the chances are that people there will be reasonably self reliant or will be able to become self reliant in a short period of time before a beak down. And even those who aren't will be supported to some extent.

Now take a look at a city like New York and think for a minute.  Suppose a serious collapse happens.  Will power fail?  Water supply?  Food deliveries? (Empty shelves and fuel shortages are the first sign of things going wrong).  They are done in a scenario like this and obviously so are you.

So no, you don't need to move to the remotest place in the world to be safe.  Just go to the farmland side of the US and you will be reasonably safe.  And forget about people moving from the cities there to loot.  They will not be able to walk that far.  Just make sure you get along with the neighbors. 

Mr Self-Sufficient totaly isolated in the midle of nowhere, the way you describe him, cannot survive even today.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:39 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@agent default

Well, that's the rub, isn't it?

The human body can last quite a while if you have water, and most of the hard-core preppers have made sure that they're near bodies of water or have a stream going through their property, for their own use. Fewer still have deep wells, but honestly every post I've read about a compound makes copious references to a stream, etc..

So, as people slowly starve, and they will take a while to do so - remember that most of the population is fat as hell, and even that doesn't burn off quickly when you're in starvation mode - and they're sipping whatever jugs of juice/water from the looted supermarket, walking towards the rumored bunker where there's plenty of food and everything...

Well, a good number of them will make it - hunger is a pretty powerful motivator. If there is even a HINT that somebody has a house/bunker/whatever in the country, you can be damned sure they'll turn over every brick until they've found something.

Its interesting that you reference cities as the big "kill box" where nobody makes it out alive. I'm sure lots of bad things would happen in that scenario, but equally there will be a large outpouring of refugees as they seek other places to go.

And that's the bunker hold-out problem, waves and waves of people just coming through, and you have to hope you don't have a single process failure in your defense plan when it happens.

Sounds like grim odds to me...

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:10 | Link to Comment agent default
agent default's picture

As I said, you need to live in a small rural community, not  a bunker. The bunker guy has very low chances of survival on his own either way you look at it.

Also, yes the cities will be kill boxes, because the moment you find an empty shelf in the supermarket,  that's it.  Whatever you need, you can't have it.

And no, being fat does not protect you from starvation conditions.  In fact it might work against you.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:41 | Link to Comment Hubbs
Hubbs's picture

oops double post.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:45 | Link to Comment Hubbs
Hubbs's picture

The reality in a real shtf scneario is you won't live long enough to use one box of ammo--the reality is people will be shooting back.  I chuckle at all these one dimensional preppers who think having a bunch of ammo solves all the problems.

Having a huge bunker/fortress like shown on National Geographic is a contradiction in scenario planning.  If things get that bad, your compound will be a target and  easily be overun/looted by a force bigger than you. On the other hand, fleeing the big city, or even a small town with no place to go, and no means to bring any provisions with you means you are a refugee with nothing and at the mercy of simple thugs.  Not a good situation either.

Probably the best plan is to have a small place that is reasonably self sufficient, but that you have not  sunk  a whole lot of money into, and that you can afford to abandon. Instead,  spend the difference on having a good uhaul trailor and truck to pull it and haul with you more provisions than a simple refugee with just the clothes on his back. All depends of course on getting out of dodge ahead of the roadblocks and carnage. In some cases like Katrina which was a localized forecast event, it was a no brainer. But on a national/international scale, harder to do.

 

But for me, I just assume get out of the city, get out of the rat race and live a simpler life anyway.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:38 | Link to Comment PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Good post. I think an important thing to notice about both bitcoin and the PMs is that they are both non-fiat. This is key. It is the corrupt worldwide fiat ponzi that is at risk, and of course, the status quo will fight tenaciously to protect their turf.

Bitcoins and PMs fight the same enemy. In my opinion, if cryptocurrencies were to take over tomorrow, PMs will still be valuable, tradable and durable for the same reasons they always have been.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:04 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

"The whole system is now such a convoluted mess there is no way to plan for , save or invest for, anything."

Just my two satoshi - Simply consider your current location, age, financial position and what you need until you take your dirt nap. You may have public retirement with a city that is well funded, or you may be broke. You may live in a large bankrupt city, or have a small debt-free farm where you grow your own food. When there is a natural or man-made disaster how would you take care of yourself. No need to plan for all out nuclear war, or a massive astroid strike. Just enjoy life and put some asside for tough times. Diversify based on what your needs may be. Make friends with like-minded people and get to know your neighbors. Learning about auto and home repair is a plus.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:23 | Link to Comment Pullmyfinger
Pullmyfinger's picture

Bitcoin is a fascinating technology. If it were to become formally backed by a real commodity, it would become a juggernaut phenomenon that would transform the world, primarily destroying the shadow banking empire and making statism almost impossible.

However... at present it has an Achilles heel, being implicitly given value only relative to the prevailing fiat currencies. It is unlikely to be of much value in the case of a true economic collapse and highly dependent on the electrical grid --for if the grid shuts down, where is your "money"?

As a thought experiment, imagine that each of the major currencies were to dive to zero in a frenzy of hyperinflationary competition. What would be the value of your holdings and in what commodity would it be measured? Cigarettes? Sugar? Barrels of oil?? Fifty cubic miles of vacuum between here and the Moon? ...just how would that work?

It would therefore also be unlikley to survive -- as it is presently conceived-- in a a wartime scenario, or an EMP event, a full-blown economic collapse. It I'm just wingin' it here. Any thoughts?

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:34 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

you mean like Iran selling oil with it?  yep, fireworks show for sure if that happens

 

also this whole fantasy of the stacker rapture (grid going dark) is foolish..  anyone who wants to be off the grid can go get a lake house cabin and be done with it all if so choose..  but if the grid does go dark, then that cabin will be overrun within weeks so why root for it ???

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:43 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@dark pools of soros

That's it exactly. Never got the whole mentality - where it goes beyond preparation and goes into some kind of twisted ideology - "Yeah, can't WAIT to use all this shit I have stored up..."

What the fuck?

It seems a lot of them cross the line, and love posting little smug vignettes of how they made their dinners from harvested veggies in their gardens, or glam-shots of the latest addition to their bunker armory.

Again, as I've suspected and have seen in my own lifetime, extreme scenarios don't play out the way people think they will. In fact, most of the time the results are more moderate than you can think. Not everyone in the human race wants the world to burn...

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 17:21 | Link to Comment PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

"If it were to become formally backed by a real commodity..." No, no, no!! This opens the door to counter party risk and centralization!! Who will manage the "real commodity"?(ex. Gold) The banksters sure have done a wonderful job of that! /s The beauty of bitcoin is that it operates using a distributed network consensus backed by strong cryptography - i.e. mathematics! The genius of bitcoin revolves around how TRUST is managed. On the network it is assumed the nodes, by themselves, are not required to be trusted. Rather it is the (un-hackable) consensus of the network in its entirety that determines the trust of the system.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:08 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"If it were to become formally backed by a real commodity, it would become a juggernaut phenomenon that would transform the world"

If you think this, then you don't understand the first thing about BitCoin.

Here's a brain teaser to get your thinking on the right track: what is gold backed by?

HINT: it's the exact same thing that BitCoin is already backed by.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:14 | Link to Comment Pullmyfinger
Pullmyfinger's picture

Your reasoning is specious and shallow. The "value" of gold, as any other physical commodity, is "backed" by energy. This is the nature of reality. What is the value of gold? It is precisely equal to the quantity of energy it takes to dig it out of the earth and process into usable form. This is what "rare" means: It takes a proportionately large amount of energy to obtain a given quantity of gold. Period.

How much actual energy does a bitcoin take to obtain? Effectively nil. It's completely imaginary at this point and is thus doomed to otherwise fail.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:51 | Link to Comment PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Wow dude - epic fail! Do some research before you post. In fact, bitcoins are of necessity "digitally mined" and that process absolutely requires energy. Lots of electricity to run the computers to solve the difficult problems to mine the coins.

 

http://bitcoinma.appspot.com/

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:23 | Link to Comment GreatUncle
GreatUncle's picture

Why I like bitcoin, in fact we could use the rate of nuclear decay as a timed measure instead.

It starts to allow a comparison of the creation rates of bitcoins against fiat money. This is why the gold standard was dumped by sovereigns so YOU COULD NEVER MEASURE THE RATE OF FIAT CREATION THEY WERE GOING TO DO.

This issue no longer holds for gold because off all the gold ETF's out there rendering it a fiat currency incorporating both real and unreal parts.

State the issue then...

The illusion of a not real value component far exceeding the real part that no action can be taken in the real part will generate enough growth the unreal part needs. A RELATIVE DEFLATION ISSUE THEN. Every addition to the unreal part swamps the real part even more making it worse and agree like others that eventually the central banks are going to throw even more against this. THEY NO LONGER HAVE A CHOICE TBH.

Bitcoin then? It will reveal by its measured rate of creation at a know rate the rate of creation of fiat.

Reminds me of the internet, if it dies now it has served its purpose having revealed the nature of those with power!

Both are irreversible except maybe over a couple of centuries.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:25 | Link to Comment Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

“The technology is still relatively immature and lacks the infrastructure, regulation and understanding of the risks that are taken for granted in conventional financial systems,” Matt Rees.

FUCK YOU, Rees, we dont WANT your "regulation"!  That's the whole point of crypto-currencies:  No CBs!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:28 | Link to Comment solidsteele
solidsteele's picture

“The technology is still relatively immature and lacks the infrastructure, regulation and understanding of the risks that are taken for granted in conventional financial systems,” Matt Rees, assistant director at Ernst & Young LLP, said in an e-mail. “It is not surprising then that thefts, frauds and other deceptions are currently commonplace.”

 

Unlike Obamacare, at least you can use their infrastructure!

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:36 | Link to Comment Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

The idiot analyst says that it has no infrastructure. Clearly this guy just reads the comments on Zero Hedge and knows nothing about Bitcoin's structure and history.

Yes, the valuation is all over the place. Yes, the technology is in it's early stages of adoption.

The city next to mine used to be the world capital of horse whip manufacturing. The story is they just did not believe that the horseless carriages would not catch on. It took about twenty years for the city to collapse. It has never really come back.

The folks around here sound like they are heavily invested in buggy whips. Maybe they are correct. But is it wise to dismiss something outright?

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:42 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

ZH ignorant fearmonger:    "It's an NSA/NWO tool to enslave you!"  

errr.. or... "The big bad government will crush it!!" 

ahhh...fuck.. "It's evil since I don't understand it like my VCR!!"  

whispers real reason...  "I haven't claimed taxes in 30 years and know I will fuck myself if I touch it!!! In fact I shouldn't even be out in daylight.."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:47 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

There is nothing special about bitcoin, and that is the problem. It can be traced, intercepted, confiscated, regulated, taxed. Nothing really to understand other than it can be used by some for purchases even though its a huge gamble that will make some people some real money if they can cash out. Now there are many more forms of "crypto" currency so the fad is fading quick.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:14 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Traced? Maybe, but with bitcoin you can make it very difficult for them. Meanwhile, they can very easily track everything about your credit cards and bank activity with virtually no effort on their part, and there is nothing you can do about that.

Intercepted? How, exactly? Again, this is easily defeated.

Confiscated? Really? How, exactly? Again, they can confiscate your bank accounts and garnishee your wages today, with the stroke of a pen. Using BitCoin materially improves your chances, especially if you keep your wallet offline.

Regulated?? How, exactly? There is no central nexus of control to regulate.

Taxed?? How, exactly???

You are making just shockingly ignorant assertions. Get your head into the 21st century.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:31 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

Confiscated - as in the FBI confiscated Dred's bitcoin stash.

Regulated - make it illegal to buy, sell, use as currency. You so confident you can conduct illegal transactions and never get caught? If its use is made illegal the gov just sits and waits for you. You make your own trap.

Taxed - tax any gain in value, require you to pay sales tax, just like internet sales. Transaction history is in the block. You really think your electronic wallet can not be linked to you, your financial institution, you internet service provider, your computer, that the bitcoins are safe? The companies that make the software and hardware for the telecoms, for banking, for communications are regualted, funded and controled (for the most part) by the feds (and equivalent in ever contry) for "national security". They can track anything they want if they are interested enought to dedicate the resources to tracking you down.

My shockingly ingnorant assertions are based on years of reading up on the history of government control, spying on its people and watching how easily people who think they are unseen are snatched up. Watching how slowly reports of how the government has been monitoring everything you do for the last 60 years. Watching videos and reading books and articles about the rise and application of cryptography.

It find it amusing that the cryptography approved for civilian use is developed by the NSA, but you think you have a mastery of concepts and application that is beyond game that is being played on you.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:13 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"Confiscated - as in the FBI confiscated Dred's bitcoin stash."

Really? How do you know this, exactly? Just because the FBI said so? And even if that figure is correct-- how do you know they got anywhere near ALL of DPR's stash?

"You really think your online wallet cannot be linked to you?"

Yes-- if I was not careful. If I WAS careful, it would be a lot harder. And what about my OFFLINE wallets?? How do they find THAT??

Again-- they can confiscate your bank accounts and garnishee your wages TODAY, at the stroke of a pen. You're a retard if you don't think BitCoin isn't a huge improvement over our current situation.

"The companies that make the software and hardware for the telecoms, for banking, for communications are regualted, funded and controled (for the most part) by the feds (and equivalent in ever contry) for "national security"

So what?? The entire point of BitCoin is its gives you a way to AVOID that network entirely.

"My shockingly ingnorant assertions are based on years of reading up on the history of government control, spying on its people and watching how easily people who think they are unseen are snatched up."

Ah, the old canard, "the Feds are almighty gods, NONE can escape their grasp!! It is hopeless! GIVE UP NOW!!!"

Sorry. Not buying it.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 23:18 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

dont buy it cause I aint sell'n it. I dont really give a shit what you do. If you make money and have fun doing it that is great. Believing that some computer program is ultra secret while awareness of the program is skyrocketing and while you use the computers, routers, landlines, network and rely on everyone keeping their hands off is retarded. Let's say you are right, that there is no way the feds can crack the actual program. The fact is, and has been for a long time, they do not need to. They control your computer and all the internet access. They can steal your passwords, insert programs on your computers, smart phones, cars, airplaes, and refridgerators. They can track you in your home via your wireless router. Zero day vulnerabilities are constantly being developed in introduced into the hardware and software. The western countries have spent a fortune weaponizing the intnert, you are to too smart for'em.

Maybe back in the late 90s and early 2000s you had a chance at anonymity but anyone who has paid any attention the massive spending for the NSA in the last 10 years for its "total information awareness" concept will have some idea of the depth and global reach. WaPo ran a series or articles, you can also watch a documentary on the WaPo series. There was really good book a few years ago ...part of the title was "rise of the surviellence state" but I forgot the rest. Book goes into some good detail about how everything was being manipulated many years ago and the trend was set to control all communications. Even the local police have very impressive abillites to penetrate your commuications and track and trace just about everything you do. You have to be 100% all the time. They just have to wait for you to slip. but of course you never will you too smart.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 15:10 | Link to Comment Mr Pink
Mr Pink's picture

What if you don't use a financial institution? What if you don't use an ISP in your name? What if your BTC is on a computer only used for bitcoin transactions?

Someone argued that the gubmint can nail you for capital gains tax by proving you purchased bitcoins...I always thought that they can only tax you if they can prove you sold them for a profit

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:38 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Confiscated - 2 step process: first they need physical access to your wallet file then they need to break your password.  Similar as giving up the combination to your safe or GPS coordintates to your secret stash.  There are further security protections possible Ref: multi-signature keys

Regulated - Making Bitcoin illegal risks over-exposure of their fiat scam.  What if nobody complies?  Ref: weed.

Taxed - Bitcoin profits are already taxable under existing laws.  We are waiting to see if many people comply.

Bitcoin's cryptology has held up so far (4 years out in the wild).  A lot of smart people are betting it will remain secure.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 14:19 | Link to Comment Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@Money Squid

Ah nice, someone who comes out swinging. Okay, this is "fight club" after all - care to call the "death" of bitcoin?

Just a date, down to the month/year if you could. I'd like it as reference if you're willing to put yourself on the line.

 

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 23:00 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

Of course I will, but first you have to define "death"

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:42 | Link to Comment Saratoga
Saratoga's picture

Over before it started.

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:44 | Link to Comment dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

keep telling yourself that champ...  but really ya missed the boat

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 13:45 | Link to Comment Money Squid
Money Squid's picture

regulate bitcoin? but but but its a crypto currency that can not be tracked, spoofed, or regulated. It is free of government intervention. How could this be?

Sun, 12/15/2013 - 19:46 | Link to Comment TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Governments have a freedom-of-speech right to spout nonsense.  They also are empowered to restrict the behavior of the peons under their control.  Since there is no central Bitcoin corporation to regulate they would go after the end-users in their jurisdiction.  Whether or not governments actually go through with such restrictions and whether or not the peons comply remains to be seen.

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