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Bitcoin Tumbles After PBOC Rumors Confirmed

Tyler Durden's picture


UPDATE: The earlier rumors have been confirmed: People’s Bank of China told more than 10 third-party payment service providers yesterday not to give clearing services to online Bitcoin exchanges, China Business News reports, citing a central bank meeting with the companies. This news is pressuring Bitcoin to $678 (on Mt.Gox) but more notably, BTC China rates imply a $588 equivalent price - down 57% from its highs. From a $100-plus premium, BTC China now trades $130 cheap to Mt.Gox as the 'arb' flips.




Talk from the PBOC (via Sina) that "the central bank directs: third party payment institutions shall not undertake business with Bitcoin hosted sites," appears to be responsible for the slump in the virtual currency once again. This expands the PBOC's earlier Bitcoin ban to other institutions. Bitcoin prices have dropped over 20% from their overnight highs - trading at around $715 now. Perhaps even more notable is the relationship between Bitcoin and the precious metals today with the early Bitcoin weakness corresponding almost perfectly to gold and silver strength (and again mid-morning in the US).



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Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:45 | 4251607 wallstreetapost...
wallstreetaposteriori's picture

Que....fonestar's endless commentary.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:51 | 4251634 whatsinaname
whatsinaname's picture

What does this article mean for Barrick gold ? Why would they be hedging now ? Apparently Thornton is an ex-Goldie.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:56 | 4251649 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

The miners have historically hedged at the wrong times!

Negetive sentiment is always greatest at the bottom and must occur to switch trend!

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:55 | 4251662 outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture

Well Barrick has a long history of collusion with the government so any hedging is probably being sold to the fed. Just speculatin'.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:23 | 4251779 Dear Infinity
Dear Infinity's picture

I don't understand how they can't "dig it up" for less than $1200 an ounce now, when just a few years ago it was $500. 

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:51 | 4251891 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Those deposits have been exploited and new ones are more difficult.  Costs are up as well.

Basically, the same reasons you can't fill up your car for $20.00 any more, get an easy $200k home equity line of credit, or find any decent jobs out there.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:12 | 4251961 CH1
CH1's picture

Oh no! Bitcoin is dead again!!!


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 19:42 | 4252233 old naughty
old naughty's picture

same as gold is (was) dead many times...

China long a few hundred tons; China short a few bitcoins; China kept mining gold...Can it be fools' parade?

Two sides of any trade. Who sold?


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:49 | 4252899 Four chan
Four chan's picture

china sees the threat to its efforts to overthrow the dollar, and thats good enough for me, im pro bitcoin.


good money, sound money, always pushes out bad.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:36 | 4252996 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

other way around there four chizzles

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:56 | 4253032's picture

As we learned the other day here on ZH.


But, what if... The "good" money was BTC and ended up backing the "bad" currency which was mostly used for transactions. 

Value can be stored in BTC, but would be converted to the preferred "bad" currency before transacting with it.  Annoying, yes.. but a safe way to store your wealth when it isn't being used. 

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 01:09 | 4253057 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Why would you possibly want to store your value in bitcoin if you aren't going to transact in it and not gold?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 01:15 | 4253064's picture

We can transact in it, but it would (for the time being) be through an intermediary like BitPay.  No government is going to accept anything other than their currency for taxes any time soon. 

Once BTC reaches its full value (when 1 satoshi = the value of the smallest logical transactable value (maybe the value of a pack of gum or such)), then it will start to make sense to go full BTC. 

It makes more sense to store value in BTC because we live in a digital age and many transactions are done over the internet.  Credit card fraud is everywhere, and credit cards were not invented for use on the internet.  When I say "but would be converted to the preferred "bad" currency before transacting with it" I am referring to the conversion that BitPay (or similar) does, converting BTC to USD in real time.

Of course it always makes sense to have gold and/or silver as a backup.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 04:02 | 4253277 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

'Value can be stored in BTC, but would be converted to the preferred "bad" currency before transacting with it.'

That's what you said. You haven't answered the question. Why store value in bitcoin as opposed to gold and silver if you are going to transact in paper or even digital 'other' money?

'It makes more sense to store value in BTC because we live in a digital age and many transactions are done over the internet. '

Many more transactions are not done over the internet so I would take issue with this statement as well. Gold still seems far better.

'Credit card fraud is everywhere, and credit cards were not invented for use on the internet.'

Credit cards are as good as anything else for transacting over the net, and just as traceable... Not convinced.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 05:04 | 4253309 Manthong
Manthong's picture

..when all this crap is over, all I will have left is a few crummy pieces of silver and gold..


Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:59 | 4253365 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture


I blame Sir Isaac Newton really.


The year was 2013.....and we thought the price of nothing could go up forever.


On retrospect....maybe we should had at least converted it to fiat.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:23 | 4253359 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

I store value in BTC because I can.  I like to diversify and believe in the technology. I feel there is more upside potential to BTC than gold and I'm willing to gamble.  

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 07:38 | 4253422 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Dump the logic and go with your throwing darts while wearing a blindfold.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 07:57 | 4253437 Againstthelie
Againstthelie's picture

And the independency from governments and Central Banks is most impressing... :P

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 19:29 | 4255363 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

At some point Bitcoin will just slough off the dictats of world superpowers.  In it's current early-adopter phase, some turbulence is to be expected.  I think it is holding it's own fairly well under these conditions.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 09:15 | 4253564 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

I invest in Easter beanie babies because I can.  I like to diversify so I also buy cabbage patch dolls.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 11:58 | 4254055 NIHILIST CIPHER

papasmurf            +1     Smurf that was too funny, I feel the same way about the bitcoin mentality.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 19:30 | 4255254 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Go knock yourself out, kid, since you believe so strongly in bennie baby and cabbage patch doll tech.  Who am I to step in your way?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:58 | 4253395 tvdog
tvdog's picture

You can store an unlimited amount of wealth on a thumb drive in bitcoin. Gold, on the other hand, is contraband in most places and will be confiscated at the border.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:05 | 4253423 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture




Wealth on a thumb drive......yeah......that screams privacy.....until you plug it into a computer.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:16 | 4253464 tvdog
tvdog's picture

Red herring.

And my 6-year degree is in mathematics - and I paid it off years ago - and the taxpayers paid for most of it - and college is a terrible investment unless you get into a top-tier institution - and it makes more sense economically to go to trade school and become a plumber ...

And what does this have to do with bitcoin again?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:36 | 4253481 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



We've got your're not anywhere close to a border.....but we still see you.

Would you like to know where you live?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:20 | 4253467 RabbitChow
RabbitChow's picture

Gold is contraband in most places?  Really? 

The thumb drive won't store anything once the blockchain gets long enough.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:26 | 4253477 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Gold is contraband in most places?


Just let him go.....he's rolling.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:06 | 4253346 tvdog
tvdog's picture


Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:02 | 4253440 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

CH1    "Oh no! Bitcoin is dead again!!! LOL"



LOL is right. Wouldn't it be funny if the Chinese Gov were buying bitcoins to manipulate the current holders. LOL

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:19 | 4251981 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Oil and overall energy costs are way up over the last decade. So are transportation costs and mining supplies (big rigs, drilling equipment, tires, etc...).

In other words, inflation numbers have been distorted and understated by a significant amount when it comes to all in costs of mining gold (and silver).

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:27 | 4252012 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Yes, well said Bay.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:36 | 4252043 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin has had an amazing run these past few months.  I'm still calling for five and six figure Bitcoin as more and more people around the globe begin to realize that central banks and the governments they own are in an intractable position.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 21:49 | 4252560 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

$638, can I get $638?  No?

PPC, NVC, LTC all dumping!  Who coulda know'd!

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:33 | 4252847 TruthHammer
TruthHammer's picture

Posted this in the dark web article, bu why not here too, enjoy



while shilling for Bitcoin takes a lot of time, I can't help but ask why you continue to apparently believe the fallacy that

"crypto-currency" or "virtual currency"  EQUALS Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is AN example of those things, they are not it.  You straw man the idea that virtual/crypto-currencies are here to stay, which is true, and then fallaciously follow up with Bitcoin is here to stay.


The single claim I have seen you or anyone make as to why this should be the case, is "first adopter" status, and that is a VERY weak reason to not turn paper profits into real ones by cashing out.  If the powers that be, (as you supposedly think you are opposing with BTC), choose to create an officially sanctioned, properly supported, fully-convertible "crypto-currency" that is equivalent to legal tender, their USCoin would wipe BTC out in a day.

Don't fool yourself to think privacy, anonymity, fighting fiat, or any other nonsesnse would stop it.  What people are chasing with BTC is easy money, that's why shoeshine boys are telling me about how their buddy set up a mining rig, and why LTC et al see growth as people chase the next e-Coin with a lower entry margin.

BTC is 50% penny stock, and 50% commodity (virtual commodity) and 0% currency.  It can and will be vaporized, either by a far more convertible official alternative, or by advancing technology leading to its undoing.  It will never reach "a million dollars" and it is completely driven by speculators and controlled by the 20%ers.

Feel free to shill some FUD in response, I'm all ears, and you've just been....refer to ID-name ;)


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:55 | 4252917 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

fone...i give u showed up...most wouldnt....

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 02:48 | 4253191 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Too busy buying ;)  ...added 10% to BTC stacks.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 07:31 | 4253411 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture




amazing run these past few months.


Kinda like throwing a match on a pile of gunpowder......wait till the smoke clears and let's find out what's left.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 19:31 | 4253417 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Aye, actually the price is right back where it was 10 days ago -- the last time China's Central Bank opened it's big fat mouth.  Also consider, over these past 10 days 36,000 bitcoins were freshly minted.  Also, you gotta pay to play, arm-chair quaterbacking from the sidelines is free, though.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:09 | 4252946 Metal Minded
Metal Minded's picture

don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 07:12 | 4253397 tvdog
tvdog's picture

If the powers that be, (as you supposedly think you are opposing with BTC), choose to create an officially sanctioned, properly supported, fully-convertible "crypto-currency" that is equivalent to legal tender, their USCoin would wipe BTC out in a day.

Nonsense. People are looking for a way to AVOID being ripped off by the "powers that be." Only a bankster could be so delusional as to believe that the "official" status of a currency adds value. No - creation of "value" through legislative fiat is nothing but a fraud. Producers create value, not governments or banksters.

Edit: just to add - the reason that you stack gold is because YOU don't think that the treasury secretary's signature on a green piece of paper confers value.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 09:20 | 4253574 TruthHammer
TruthHammer's picture

Nonsense. People are looking for a way to AVOID being ripped off by the "powers that be." Only a bankster could be so delusional as to believe that the "official" status of a currency adds value. No - creation of "value" through legislative fiat is nothing but a fraud. Producers create value, not governments or banksters.

The people buying BTC for that reason are 0.00000000000001% of the BTC owners and are irrelevant to its ultimate outcomeThe reason an official one would have "value" (which is not what i said), is because it could be accepted and used everywhere and would offer a way for people to move "in and out" of it easily. 


Edit: just to add - the reason that you stack gold is because YOU don't think that the treasury secretary's signature on a green piece of paper confers value.


I am not saying anything in defense of fiat or the FED.  My point is that the 0.000000000000001% of people buying BTC on principle are irrelevant to its "value" in terms of its exchange rate for USD, and irrelevant to the ultimate outcome and fate.

Also, that anyone who has made millions or even thousands on BTC already, and is too stupid to cash out and take the free money, is greedy and foolish beyond belief. fonestars FUD (of 'future' profits) pimping of BTC is gibberish.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 21:13 | 4255416 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Source? If pulling this out of your ass I'll expect that reference in APA citation style.

0.00000000000001% of all humans on earth is literally 1 butt hair of 1 human.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 22:48 | 4252716 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"I'm still calling for five and six figure Bitcon."

Yes, we're well aware of that.  Now, can I ask an honest question and get an honest answer instead of the knee-jerk down arrow?

More than once you've posted that you sold some Btc at ~ $200 USD/Btc in order to pay some bills.  Subsequent to the huge rise in Nov you've told us that you've bought more. 

You sold at ~ $200 and bought those same Btc back for ~$800 to $1200.  Were you far less bullsh and optimistic when you sold, or do you have less courage in your convictions than you'd like everyone else to have?  If you're convinced in as little as a 4 digit Btc then why not borrow at even a Shylockish 20% APR to pay your bills instead of paying 2400% APR to feed your Btc 'habit?  Certainly outlooks change, and we change with them, but your published outlook has never wavered here or at other sites (while simultaneously your investments have).


Tue, 12/17/2013 - 10:45 | 4253850 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I never said I was less bullish when I sold.  I had some unexpected debts.  I have always been psychotically bullish on Bitcoin.  Just buy as much as I can, when I can and go crazy.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:34 | 4252986 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I'm still calling for five and six figure Bitcoin

Wait a minute. A week ago you were calling for six figure bitcoin. Now you're calling for "five and six figure" bitcoin. Losing confidence are we? Next week will it be "four or five figure" bitcoin???

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:40 | 4252999 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

He called for seven figures not long ago too. Yes, $1M a coin.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 02:08 | 4253129 fonestar
fonestar's picture

...and I am still calling that.  I am not sure when Bitcoin goes past five figures and then six and seven.  Perhaps another few years but I think five figure Bitcoin is doable in 12 - 24 months.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 02:47 | 4253189 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture



Stack On

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 09:24 | 4253578 TruthHammer
TruthHammer's picture

fonestar, i see you posted here, after my main post and didnt reply.  Defend your BTC son, lets here the 'future profit' FUD defense....

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 03:46 | 4253260 ebear
ebear's picture



Rule #1: never fall in love with an investment

Rule #2: if you're up big, take some off

Rule #3: your first loss is your best loss

Any questions?


oh, and one more: never try to catch a falling knife.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:23 | 4253475 RabbitChow
RabbitChow's picture

Rule #1:  that's why I won't buy bitcoin.  It's not supposed to be an investment, but 'money'.  It's supposed to be a 'store of wealth' but it isn't' right now it's an investment.  Investments go up relative to money, and they go down relative to money.  Soon bitcoin may find it's true value as a store of wealth and therefore money, but until then, I'm not buying.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 03:45 | 4253261 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

well ok then.

But it sure is starting to look like a bell curve isn't it.  And it CAN be manipulated can't it.  Satoshi made a ton of money no doubt.

 I think you'll have to kill of the Rothschilds some other way.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 03:50 | 4253266 ebear
ebear's picture

Yet another rule, which is really more of an observation:  

Parabolic moves almost never end well.  Why?  See rules # 2 and 3.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 04:40 | 4253295 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

With a bedroom stuffed with little white ty tigers, and now bitcoin crashing, looks like state schools for my kids.

But no, seriously, I'm good.  Every day my Elm, Ash, and Chestnut trees are growing taller.  See y'all in Fiji in a few!

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 05:01 | 4253308 ebear
ebear's picture

Best thing to do with beanie babies is put them in the back window of your car.  People will think you're Chinese and give you a wide berth... heh.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:48 | 4253011 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

this is fonestars 3rd get rich scheme,

1st was a chiuahua breeding kennel which waas decimated by a hawk

2nd was a organic exterminator service where hippies only could trade weed for his services and now

3rd he bout 3 biticoins and he spends 12 hours a day tirelessly pumping them up in hopes of 6 figure returns

oddly enough if he would have just stfu about his biticoins 250 people on ZH would would have actually bought into them but diddnt beacuse of how irritated they are by all the noise coming from some gilf's attic.  

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:20 | 4253355 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

seems legit

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:35 | 4252989 Holleyman
Holleyman's picture

True on the cost, haul truck tires were $30,000 a tire ten years ago are now just over $70,000 a tire.  A truck was 3.8 million is now just shy of 8 million.  Mining costs have more than doubled, hauls get longer, pits get deeper, ore grades get poorer, regulations get stricter and PR is an ever increasing concern.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:50 | 4252082 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

FYI, for those who watched Big History on the H2 channel, know that the Earth has enough gold in its molten region, to cover the entire earth surface with gold that's 15 feet (5m) deep.  That's a LOT of gold.

The problem is an extreme technical one, i.e. getting at it, as the combination of pressures + temperatures are beyond today's technology.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 19:03 | 4252120 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Lots of gold beneath the ocean floor if you could mine it profitably (which you can't).

Maybe Exponere Mendaces (aka Johnny Asteroid) can weigh in with his expertise on this?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 19:31 | 4252202 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@Bay of Pigs

You've got nothing to worry about, of course - rocks never fall from the sky, and once something is valuable it remains that way forever.

Funny how you bring it up again and again, though. Trouble sleeping? Or you just have nothing else better to do?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 20:08 | 4252296 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Now that you mention it, I haven't been sleeping well.

I do find it funny you BTC guys all have PhD's in geology and are experts at space mining too. Kind of amazing isn't it?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 20:50 | 4252401 tmosley
tmosley's picture

People with an interest in science and technology know about science and technology?


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:37 | 4252868 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Tmos, I need to have some fun needling these guys a bit. Good grief, look at the month they just had. 

They troll gold and silver but I can't return the jabs? Come on man...

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:43 | 4253005 tmosley
tmosley's picture

But they don't troll gold and silver.  They own gold/silver AND bitcoin.

Rather, what I see is 24/7 trolling of bitcoiners by scared goldbugs.  Maybe now they can relax a little bit and think about how they are going to get their wealth out of their local mafia jurisdiction after currency controls are imposed.

I, for one, don't fancy shoving gold up my ass.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 01:59 | 4253117 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

The hell they don't. This Exponere Mendaces guy you are defending rips gold to shreds every single day.

Maybe you should pay more attention?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:08 | 4253347 malikai
malikai's picture

Bullshit, again.

I own loads of gold and silver, as well as bitcoin. I am not alone.

Perhaps if you lot would take a deep breath and try to think clearly, you'd see that.

Unfortunately for you lot, you missed the 800% run up over the last two months because your too scared to think outside the box.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 11:40 | 4254000 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Comprehension issues? I was referring to Exponere, as tmos was defending him and his idiotic asteroid mining claim.

Good for you pal. Load up on BTC. Like many here, I have my reasons for avoiding it. It has nothing to do with "being scared to think outside the box".

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 12:21 | 4254134 malikai
malikai's picture

"Tmos, I need to have some fun needling these guys a bit. Good grief, look at the month they just had. They troll gold and silver but I can't return the jabs? Come on man..."

Memory issues?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:19 | 4253348 malikai
malikai's picture


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 22:22 | 4252658 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@Bay of Pigs

I'm an expert in making you reply :)

Gotta go, have some more BTC trades to take care of. But carry on, and be all witty and whatever - I'm sure that keeps the lights on.


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:44 | 4252893 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

It's amazing what you can learn in Teh basement of the schience building, and by that I mean mom's basement.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:36 | 4252994 Holleyman
Holleyman's picture

6300 KM to the core is a pretty deep well!

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:49 | 4253386 tvdog
tvdog's picture

If an element has an affinity for iron, causing it to concentrate in the Earth's core, then that same affinity would cause it to concentrate in (rare) iron-based asteroids. Iron-based asteroids are pieces of the cores of shattered planetesimals. Mine gold in the asteroid belt!

And yes, you could learn that from Wikipedia in your mom's basement.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 19:34 | 4252213 kodachrome
kodachrome's picture

For the same reason that you can't mine bitcoins with your CPU or Graphics card anymore.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 07:46 | 4253320 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Inflated costs duh.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 13:25 | 4254381 painlord-2k
painlord-2k's picture

The mining sector experience a greater inflation than reported by Government liars.
They are not shielded, not inside and not outside the US, from money printing effect.

If mines close down, better for the value of my gold and silver (and good also for my bitcoins)

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:58 | 4251667 Balvan
Balvan's picture

Great buying opportunity, keep stackin

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:48 | 4252071 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I agree, BTC < $800 is definitely a buy!!

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 20:56 | 4252407 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That's arbitrary and speculative.

I don't care what the USD price of bitcoin is once I have my position (which I do).  I value it in terms of gold now.

That said, it is, in fact, a buy at 0.56 toz Au.  

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:39 | 4252998 Burnbright
Burnbright's picture

I wouldn't trade an ounce of silver for a bitcoin. I wouldn't mind gambling 10 bucks on 1 but that's about it. I know the pricing mechanism for bitcoin is reverse of how we think about money but still. Bitcoin is just too volatile,  even more so than silver, and too young to be anything but speculative. 

Good to see you tmosely.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 19:36 | 4252090 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

BTFD!  I love this market, I really do.  It is so easy to make money.  Just BTFD or you're a fucking idiot.

p.s. (at +2/-1 score): Should I have used the "/sarc" tag?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:25 | 4253473 malikai
malikai's picture

No, let the downvotes give you an idea of the collective intelligence.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:50 | 4253016 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture



Silver bitch!!




Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:00 | 4251682 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Why do you care? you shouldn't have time to read anouncements about the mining industry. No one should own mining stocks; they're very stupid and very volatile. Buy the metal, instead.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:36 | 4251831 Bullionaire
Bullionaire's picture

"...very stupid and very volitile."

Takes one to know one.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:09 | 4252793 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Awesome observations!  Now, can you use fonestar-like persistence and zeal and convince everyone of that?I'd be interested in buying all of those stock after everyone takes your advice and dumps them.  Talk about pennies on the dollar.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 01:13 | 4253063 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

got to agree, mining stocks are awful investment. physical or noting. If you want stocks, pick one that actualy has respect for thir shareholders. they are few and far between and way far away from miners. 

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:54 | 4251644 Dealer
Dealer's picture

The USD price of a bitcoin is the least interesting thing about bitcoin.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:21 | 4251781 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Yeah, who buys anything hoping to make money?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:36 | 4251837 tocointhephrase
tocointhephrase's picture

You confuse money with currency.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:14 | 4251971 CH1
CH1's picture

The USD price of a bitcoin is the least interesting thing about bitcoin.

Absolutely. And the haters just can't wrap their minds around it.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:40 | 4252051 fonestar
fonestar's picture

They still won't grasp Bitcoin at $10,000.  They're just not that bright.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 22:24 | 4252663 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture


They'll just scream its another tulip bubble at 10,000 - of course ignoring all the OTHER times they did the same thing and Bitcoin didn't go to zero. (Which is what bubbles do, they deflate, permanently.)

But who needs facts when you have a keyboard and Zerohedge?

Apparently they don't, that's for sure.


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:33 | 4252838 chemystical
chemystical's picture

You've conferred upon your the title of "Sole Arbiter of What Defines a Bubble"?

Bubbles do not always burst violently and they do not of necessity deflate permanently.  If enough windbags pump air in you can be left with a flimsy asymetric structure where outflow exceeds input, but when the pumpers become exasperated and as new pumpers become scarcer, then they might find a structure that might have been sustainable if it wasn't so large.

Charts on that 1633-37 period are not available but most contemporaneous reports had a steady rise followed by a crash; Btc on the other hand is on a roller coaster.  I'd say that information is much more quickly discovered and that of course in 1637 news traveled slowly and was accordingly smoothed, but that would assume that Btc buyers/sellers are actually basing their speculation on a flow of information.

If you'd like to defend that the buyers/sellers are in fact basing their decisions on information, then I would like very much to hear some actual examples of such.  (# of reprted merchants accepting it, for example, does not correlate well with the rise.  Neither does # of users,  What correlates with the fall?  PBOC?  Sure.  Rise: US Congress hearing?  Sure, but the timing is not at all exact in either case, and accounts for very little of the volatility). 

regards,, but

p.s. the windbag and pumper comments were inserted only to flesh out the analogy and were not intended to offend Btc enthusiasts

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:00 | 4252928 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Well, I'm watching this BTC trading site and there in no trading coming from China at all. As in none.

This used to be the site, but that one disappeared and I never heard why. Any ideas what is going on?

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:55 | 4253028 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

expomanure, you prove your own point with the whole facts and keyborad thing. Funny you are attempting to lay down the FACTS and pump biticoins. Your facts I would see as asumptions. Dangerous assumptions in FACT. 

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 02:39 | 4253174 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture


You have a funny definition of a "pumper". You do know I'm expecting prices to DECLINE, right? You are paying attention to that, eh? The antithesis of what you would call a "pumper", would it not?

-1 for lack of attention to details, lol

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 04:44 | 4253297 Gumbum
Gumbum's picture

Wait..bubbles goes to zero...permanently?

Bah, why didn't anybody tell me that?! I should have gotten my house for free then.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 11:54 | 4254046 maxblockm
maxblockm's picture

What's the best way to buy small amounts of BTC (.1)?  I created a wallet, and account on MtGox, went to fund it...get charged to send a bank wire, and they charge to receive it...

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:27 | 4252020 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

'Libertarians' who badmouth BTC need to have their IQ or their Agenda questioned, since BTC and Gold share a common enemy:  CBs and their fiat currencies.  The CBs must love the D&C (divide & conquer) PR they are pulling off on the fake-libertarians.

As I had indicated numerous time before*, Gold+BTC = Perfect Pair (for Parallel Economy) = Fiat_killer

* Sat, 12/07/2013 - 13:42 | 4224727

What one won't do (in damage), the other one will:  Both take fiat out of the VoM game and foster a Parallel Economy.  And we all know how desperate the Fed and their CB friends are to use QE to ignite VoM, and how much they hate competition.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:48 | 4252080 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Most of these "libertarians" are just fakes paying lip service to all the right stuff like Bush 3.0.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 08:05 | 4253446 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

That's not a fair comment.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 03:32 | 4253244 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

Tyler may need to update this yet again - seems there's a possibility that the whole thing was a complete rumor:

Some more here, with translation in comments by user "dashenyang"

Posted for reference:

EDIT: OK, the translation is now posted in full.

Here's what I have so far. I'll update with an edit when I finish.

According to the rumor tools of the Central Bank, the market experienced a plunge as multiple parties caused a panic through market manipulation. Key words: Central Bank; rumors; tools Dec. 16, 2013 (afternoon) News: This afternoon many news items were disseminated which stated that the Central Bank was poised to halt third party payment service processing of bitcoin exchange payment and clearing services. The source presented the news in a serious tone, as if it were true.

At first, hardly anyone believed the rumors, but due to Okcoin (the second largest domestic exchange) ceasing usage of the Tenpay withdrawal service several days prior, there were some authenticated Weibo (Chinese twatter) users who tweeted as follows:

Weibo authenticated user “Li Wenbo” tweeted (the tweet has already been deleted):

After this, still more QQ members posted fake photoshopped announcements from the Central Bank, see below:

QQ group member posted the fake announcement from the People's Bank.


Xiao Bian purposefully opened the Central Bank's “Payment and clearing department” page. (URL), The mentioned announcement simply didn't exist. As you can see, the rumormongers went to great lengths to convince others that the rumors were true.

Under the various levels of pressure, the market began to panic, those speculating in virtual currencies began to dump, in the end leading to a snowball effect. The (Agebits) of a lesser-known exchange Bit Age (the company that I, Xiao Bian, am at), at that instant dropped from over 2 Yuan to 0.9 Yuan, halving in value. Although there was a later recovery, it stayed low at its current value near 1.5. Here's a screenshot:

In a similar vein, I bought some (Zhishubi – Prime Bits?) that fell from 22 Yuan to 16.51, causing me to sweat as I had put in at 25. But as I am a bit crazy (not sure here), I not only didn't sell off, but took the opportunity to buy low, and at 19.5 invested 3000 Yuan, sold at 20, and made a nice small profit.

It's not clear if this “Rumor of the Central Bank Halting Payment” event is or isn't so-called “experts at adding fuel to the fire”. But as far as I'm concerned, there were definitely experts who took advantage of it to make out like bandits.

There are great risks associated with investment in virtual currencies, definitely not merely limited to the inherent ups and down of the instrument. One must also consider the fluctuations due to rumors started in QQ groups. I respectfully invite all Bit Age clients to maintain their vigilance, and exert caution by reviewing multiple verification sources to avoid being taken advantage of by similar rumors, and suffering great losses.


So, you have a photoshopped website pic, deleted tweets, and other dodgy material. Guess the truth will come out eventually.


Tue, 12/17/2013 - 06:27 | 4253367 negative rates
negative rates's picture

You don't hear from him on the way down, he's one of those positive thinkin folks who are becoming ever more depressed at their shrinking ranks.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:46 | 4251611 JohnnyBlaze
JohnnyBlaze's picture

We about to get raped

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:52 | 4251619 JohnnyBlaze
JohnnyBlaze's picture

That story about the Chinaman (pardon the nomenclature) and the shoes was bullshit.  That was Fonestar.


Also giving myself a -1 for replying to myself.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:55 | 4251653 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

you shouldn't have worn that skirt...

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:15 | 4251738 JohnnyBlaze
JohnnyBlaze's picture

It feels so nice though.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:57 | 4251666 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

The good thing about being raped on multiple occassions is the fact it hurts less each time, I am actually beginning to enjoy it. 

yes master, can I have another one master!

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:54 | 4251897 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Who is this "we" you're talking about, Kemosabe?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:47 | 4251616 Leonardo Fibonacci2
Leonardo Fibonacci2's picture

Please more Satoshi crap cause i'll puke 

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:22 | 4251785 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

Pukestar must be busy readjusting his sell orders

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:35 | 4252039 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

He went insolvent today.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:13 | 4251967 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

Because we all know you can't eat gold....We need to ask Fonestar what Battered Bitcoin taste like?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:44 | 4252060 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Who could possibly want less of Satoshi in their lives? 

At my house we are doing a Bitcoin Christmas to celebrate the cyberchrist's creation.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 03:36 | 4253252 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

Cyberchrist...? Are you kidding me?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:49 | 4251624 JamesBond
JamesBond's picture

nobody wants to sell their beanie babies at a loss




Mon, 12/16/2013 - 19:07 | 4252137 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Nobody with a brain is trading their Bitcoin for paper rectangles.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:43 | 4252885 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

Even the muppets...ops..the people who bought at the top?

When did you buy fonestar? Did you buy at $800?

Just ask'n

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 02:15 | 4253140 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I don't even really pay attention to the price when I buy silver or Bitcoin.  I just buy some more when I can.  I did buy some more around $200, $400 and $900 though.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 04:33 | 4253292 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

Nice, good luck to you.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:22 | 4252959 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

You have turned the stupid up to 11. The only reason to have bitcoin is to eventually find someone (stupid) enough to exchange real, tangible goods or services for it. If you just store them on your hard drive forever, what the hell good are they? The USD price is relevant because it is a measure of the relative purchasing power of a bitcoin.

Face it, you and CH1 are getting butt-raped these last few days on your bitcoin "investments". By all means, keep buying all the way down.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 09:15 | 4253563 tvdog
tvdog's picture

The only reason to have bitcoin is to eventually find someone (stupid) enough to exchange real, tangible goods or services for it. If you just store them on your hard drive forever, what the hell good are they?

The only reason to have fiat is to eventually find someone (stupid) enough to exchange real, tangible goods or services for it. If you just store your fiat in the bank forever, what the hell good is it?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:52 | 4251631 Spungo
Spungo's picture

Don't worry guys. Bitcoin's intrinsic value is somewhere around $2000. The tea leaves told me.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:57 | 4251674 outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture

What do your tea leaves tell you about ANY OTHER commodity on the planet? Please....

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:11 | 4251722 Spungo
Spungo's picture

They say gold and silver are good buys because they're priced below cost. 

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:21 | 4251988 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Q1: Who's "they"?  Gold miners?  Gold shops?  Gold-blog sites?  Portfolio managers who cater to Libertarians?

Q2: Define "below cost".  Cost of (a) "mining+refining", or (b) cost of "Cash for Gold"? 

There's plenty of gold jewelry to be bought up, even if 80% of the mines close.  Especially as unemployed people get more economically/financially desperate.  And let's not kid anyone... it's the chain of middlemen (wholesale and/or retail) who make the biggest margins.  The End-users always pays the Tab for all others before them.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:32 | 4252030 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Here's a good article on silver costs (if you want to get into the real numbers anyway).

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:57 | 4252920 DirkDiggler11
DirkDiggler11's picture

I call BULLSHIT on your "plenty of jewelry to be bought up" thesis.

You ever try to take jewelry from a woman ? If so, best of luck searching the roadsides for your severed penis....

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:53 | 4251633 NaiLib
NaiLib's picture

Its amazing how ZH can compare a <10B market Cap asset with a 6 trillion Mcap asset as if they actually were connected. Really puts thinking in perspective :)

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:03 | 4251934 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

What's amazing to me is five guys in a room in London setting the price of gold at 8am EST. 

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:21 | 4251992 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Not setting, fixing.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 03:40 | 4253259 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

Of course they fix it every day; when something is broken really bad it needs lots of fixing.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 01:00 | 4253046 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

It apprears that therer are THOSE at ZH who thinks its FUNNY to pit bitcoin and PM backers together and have words. 

Lest they wish anarchy, it would be wise to KNOCK IT OFF! 


Tue, 12/17/2013 - 01:29 | 4253087 Mad Mohel
Mad Mohel's picture

This is Highlander son. There can be only one. For now Bitcoin is scaring the shit out of the dollar printers, so it's useful. Eventually that shit will have to be snuffed out though.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:53 | 4251641 Charles Nelson ...
Charles Nelson Reilly's picture

gold briefly touched $1250 and was quickly slammed down... wonder if that was a coincidence or the free market work?

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:54 | 4251898 Debugas
Debugas's picture

some are selling at 1250 and buying at 1200

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 16:54 | 4251647 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

Again, this is EXPECTED. At least for traders who know the cycles of how Bitcoin trades. I keep explaining this, but its all "Beanie Babies SELL SELL SELL" and whatever else the usual suspects post in every thread.

I completely expect to increase my position on the downswing, and when everyone is considering all hope lost, to get back in for the next ride up, like the last THREE TIMES it happened. Long term charts people, just look at the patterns. It isn't that difficult.


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:16 | 4251742 jcaz
jcaz's picture

That's so precious.....

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 18:47 | 4252079 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

Its better than "precious", its also highly profitable. But keep on slinging mud, I suppose if you're only good at something, then you have no choice but to continue doing it...

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 00:22 | 4252971 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Yeah, how did "buying all the way down" work with the Nikkei back in the late 80's, early 90's. Sometimes things go down and stay there. For decades.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 02:39 | 4253176 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture


Okay, awesome - so if Bitcoin rallies again after making a low around say - 260's, then you'll admit you're wrong? I could live with that.

Please define under what terms would be considered your viewpoint to be flawed, I love playing this game.

Your move.

Tue, 12/17/2013 - 05:39 | 4253332 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

The chart looks awful, at least gold wasn't in a bubble. This thing though seems to be over. The signs were actually there, when people started calling for 5 figures and more.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 17:49 | 4251878 funthea
funthea's picture

Consider this, oh market guru, what happens when some of those 927 people holding half of all bitcoins decide to start spending some of those ill gotten gains? You'll get what needs to happen... a price drop and a distribution of bitcoin out of concentrated hands. In the end, perhaps bitcoin will be all that. but it needs to get out of that concentrated position first.

Mon, 12/16/2013 - 19:37 | 4252215 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture


Oh right, the variant on the "what if someone dumps all at once theory" in addition to the old standard "what if the government buys all the bitcoins". Look, the probability of that happening is rather remote, and if it did - I'd be snapping up so many coins I'd make the Treasury look like a cheapskate.

To either scenario - PLEASE DO IT. I'm ready, either way.


Mon, 12/16/2013 - 23:36 | 4252855 pipes
pipes's picture

The "927" to which you refer are such they know in their hearts where Bitcoin is going. Aside from passing a few to keep the lights on, none of them will dump any significant amount anytime soon...there won't be anymore $12 million pizzas...

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