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Swiss Propose Treating Bitcoin Like Any Other Foreign Currency
While the ECB (and the Fed) continues to warn (danger of theft), threaten (asset-ize and tax it!), or de-bunk the idea of virtual currencies (despite two of the world's largest banks apparently seeing value in the idea), the Swiss Parliament is proposing a different angle. A postulate signed by 45 (of 200) members of parliament asks for bitcoin to be treated as any other foreign currency - and examine the potential bitcoin-related opportunities for the Swiss financial sector.
The Swiss Parliament is considering a postulate that asks for bitcoin to be treated as any other foreign currency. The goal of the postulate, introduced by representative Thomas Weibel, is to eliminate ambiguities and increase legal certainty related to bitcoin.
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The postulate petitions the executive branch to reply to four basic questions: whether or not bitcoin represents an opportunity for the financial sector, should bitcoin be treated as a foreign currency, what regulatory instruments should be used to establish legal certainty for bitcoin and similar currencies, and what sort of regulatory changes are needed and when can they be implemented.
The postulate was co-signed by 45 members of parliament (out of a possible 200) after they came to the conclusion that bitcoin can create new opportunities for the Swiss financial sector and that measures should be taken to regulate the application of VAT and the execution of money laundering controls.
...
Luzius Meisser, president of Bitcoin Association Switzerland, told CoinDesk: “This would be quite revolutionary, as it provides bitcoin with additional legitimacy and could serve as a precedent for other countries. Also, it would pave the way for businesses to use bitcoins without legal uncertainty in Switzerland.”
The crucial point here, of course, is if Bitcoin is 'deemed' an asset (as EU regulators appear to want), it can (and will) be taxed; but it seems the Swiss beg to differ with that definition.
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Maybe the Swiss feel threatened. Maybe the Swiss vaults of the future will be filled to the brim with QR codes and USB sticks. You never know..
Me, I'll be sticking to the shiny stuff.. currently forming a nice bottom. $20 on the horizon, before monkey hammer wednesday.
My prediction is that the first countries to officially adopt Bitcoin as their currency will thrive like no other.
How do you say, "Co-Opted" in Swiss?
I don't think Bitcoin can be co-opted by governments, perhaps by the devs though in which case there could be a fork.
Naive, delirious or both?
What kind of man takes pride in ignorance?
Is that the kind of man you want to be?
Exactly.
+1
So you're saying it's impossible for BTC to be co opted?
Yawn.
Another failed binary argument inbound.
It's not a tactic, it's a question, but good fucking try.
Bullshit.
Anyway, I have actual real work to do, so I won't be wasting my day trying to educate you lot.
Also, I'm just tired of responding to the same bullshit inane questions by the Ignorance Army.
TPTB control the PM markets, the stock markets and the currency markets, but they can't for some reason control bitcoin? ok, sure thing.
Bitcoin is an asset, perhaps implicitly superior to fiat currencies, or a currency. It is interesting that the BIS affiliated central banks believe that it is an asset.
What? It's a simple enough question.
Nice dodge asshole.
When the weak is losing an argument, they often resort to name calling.
Interestingly, I'm not even arguing with you.
Yep, you're credible.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I asked a question about the possibility of BTC being "co-opted"and you freaked calling everyone ignorant.
WTF, are you trolling on this topic now? Too funny.
Seriously guys, is it too much to ask for you to spend maybe an hour googling your questions and reading the Bitcoin FAQ?
You're throwing a hissy fit because people aren't giving you one-on-one tutoring. I find the term "Ignorance Army" to be quite fitting.
The fact that some of you guys think BTC is invincible is remarkable to some of us here. I wouldn't call that ignorance. More like a simple difference of opinion.
And yes, I understand how BTC works. I don't need tutoring. My question wasn't about that.
Maybe I'm just skimming the comments, but I don't remember anyone saying that it's invincible. Someone said they don't think it can be co-opted by governments. You took that as a declaration of impossibliity. I read it as a declaration of implausability.
"I don't think I can win a marathon" is not the same as "I don't think it's allowable by the laws of physics for me to win a marathon".
It's already been co-opted by NSA backdoors to the cryptography thru which the govt can steal new bitcoins and possibly other mischief, but when that is brought up I hear excuses why it doesn't matter that the NSA has backdoors.
No, when it's brought up, you hear excuses why you're just making stuff up on the spot.
It's not your fault that you don't have the time to verify things before repeating them. You're too busy holding down your three minimum wage jobs. <-- There's one of the excuses that you hear.
Glad you asked:
At least two NSA backdoors in bitcoin allow the govt to control Bitcoin mining.
1. Its use of elliptic curves systems for public-key cryptography. As a cryptographer said, "Prefer conventional discrete-log-based systems over elliptic-curve systems; the latter have constants that the NSA influences when they can."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-how-to-remain-secure-su...
2. NSA designed SHA-256, the Bitcoin cryptographic hash function and it can't be replaced in a backwards compatible way.
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/what-do-the-latest-nsa-leaks-mean-for-b...
BTC is controlled by the BTC miners. You can't change the protocol without a majority of them agreeing. In practice, I think it would be risky to try it (danger of a long-lived hard fork) with less than 75% intially agreeing. The miners "vote" by deciding whether to implement the change or not.
So to co-opt BTC all a central bank needs is ... 10 PHash/sec worth of mining power. Price tag: ~$80,000,000. If they do it now, they don't even have to change the protocol other than to shut out the other miners. Then there will be no other miners and they can do what they want with the protocol.
However, we would see the mining share of the current large pools get diminshed to 0, and everyone would know that BTC was centrally-controlled. Then ... Litecoin!
If however, the central banks don't get interested until they need several billion worth of hash power, it would take too long to build a suitable data center to house it and they would run a substantial risk of failure.
Sum total: not impossible, but it's something we can keep tabs on.
However, we would see the mining share of the current large pools get diminshed to 0, and everyone would know that BTC was centrally-controlled. Then ... Litecoin!
That is exactly what will happen the minute someone smells a rat. Whether it be litecoin or someone else. People seem to forget the payment processors now accept multiple types of crypto-currency. You as a vendor don't even have to price or concern yourself with the politics of crypto-currency as long as payment processor settles the transaction in USD or whatever country currency you are using minus the transaction fee and insulating you the vendor from price fluctuations at the same time.
https://coinpayments.net/index.php?cmd=supported_coins
And you don't even have to accept all the coins they are willing to process if you don't want to.
It is a market out there of crypto-currencies bitcoin isn't the only game in town they just happen to be the biggest one right now. As long as there is a free market and competition so be it if bitcoin gets co-opted and corrupted it is not the coins that are the problem to undermine a whole system. There are plenty of emerging and better alternatives already out there from a technical standpoint.
Anything is possible. The Earth could suddenly blink out of existance as all the atoms that comprise it just happen to vanish into the quantum foam all at once. It's just that the probability is so low that you would have to wait through a googolplex of universe lifetimes for it to happen.
Is it probable? No. There is no single point of failure. Or even a hundred points of failure. Literally the worst thing that can happen is that the blockchain is attacked, which would require more computing power than exists on the non-corrupted bitcoin network. The effect of such an attack would only be to prevent the processing of new transactions, and then only for the duration of the attack. The cost benefit analysis really just doesn't work out, even if one entitiy or cabal controlled that kind of computing power.
Well, that's your opinion, and I can respect that point of view, if you believe that to be true. I've read lots comments here to convince me that is simply not the case with BTC.
The fact that close to 20% of BTC is locked up in 100 hands or less raises huge red flags to some here.
Dat double standard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve
Huh? You are actually comparing BTC to worldwide gold reserves held by CB's? You've lost your mind.
And I don't hear anything out of you on silver anymore. Why?
The divide here between Pladizow and fonestar is really a teachable moment here. On the one hand you have a Bitcoin true believer who has discounted any threats to the dream of Bitcoin dominating the world (making him rich). On the other you have a critic who doesn't understand the basic design of the thing he is criticizing, but simply takes as an axoim that anything other than Gold is a scam. (Edit: I don't mean to imply that Pladizow is right or wrong about that, I think both points of view are partly reasonable and partly unreasonable.)
I posit that there is no way for either to enlighten the other. However, the nature of forum threads is such that these types of confrontations are inevitable.
Long asbestos trousers.
I haven't discounted the threats to Bitcoin, it's just that I don't think there's a lot they can do about it without totally destroying the public internet.
1) 51% attack currently costs $80,000,000 worth of mining equipment.
2) Direct multi-exchange manipulation to destroy confidence in BTC
3) Ban all banks from doing business with any BTC-handling business/individual.
4) Deep packet inspection to filter out all BTC traffic at the ISPs
(3 and 4 require global cooperation, which seems less likely than 1 or 2, depending on your view of the international banking cabal)
1) I think the 51% attack and "selfish miner" theory has been discussed to death already. It's not feasible and even if it were it would likely lead to inflation and not destruction in the Bitcoin economy.
2) This is a possibility but again, it would destroy confidence in Bitcoin from the dollar holder's perspective. It would not end people trading in Bitcoin.
3) This is already happening. My own EMT has been blocked five times in the last month.
4) This would be a monumental restructuring of the global internet from the top down. It would require all countries and all ISPs to be onboard and would likely lead to problems with breaking other protocols as well. I don't see this as a very likely or plausible threat.
1) I'm not talking about a "selfish miner" attack. The 51% attack has indeed been discussed to death and it remains feasible as long as someone can acquire 51% of the mining power. My estimate of the cost is $80 milion, with a lead time of about 6 months to put it all together in some basement.
2) I concede only that the outcome of direct manipulation would be uncertain in the long term. I believe it would be a devastating setback for Bitcoin in the near term (few years).
3) Yeah, I refuse to involve my bank account in BTC since they shut down Dwolla/MtGox transactions. If just BitPay lost they banking access it would be a significant setback. I believe if the banks were serious about stopping bitcoin, this (shutting down bank accounts) would be their primary avenue.
4) Ok, I'll concede that the filtering option is impractical.
I'm not saying that any of these are a sure-fire 100% chance of success option for TPTB. Only that at the moment, we seem to be relying on TPTB to be too slow on the pickup, rather than the resiliance of the BTC economy.
My original comment that you "discounted the threats" was based on an earlier exchange we had, where you said that they weren't going to stop you from going "all-in".
Hah! They calculated the present value of future Bitcoin block rewards. I calculated the cost of creating 10PHash/sec of compute power. IF their assumptions are correct, then they have only proven that mining is still profitable. However, their assumptions are not correct, and IMO mining is a marginal activity.
Interesting points about the potential weaknesses of Bitcoin - all of which are valid but unlikely. I think the larger picture is that under any sort of major threat to Bitcoin, money could and would flow into other crypto currencies until one (or more) ultimately succeeds. The invention itself is too powerful to simply go away. Crypto geeks would create another Internet if necessary, and indeed I think the concept of an encrypted Internet is already on the table. At the heart of it, I doubt world governments could agree to impose coordinated restrictions, which is the primary weakness of Bitcoin in my view. You'd have to get Russia, China and other big players on board, none of which are likely to mind a little thorn in the US Dollar's side.
My estimate of the cost is $80 milion, with a lead time of about 6 months to put it all together in some basement.
Sounds like something Chinese government could and might just attempt. I would imagine if that happened you'd be able to out which government is behind it if not the specific agency. To pull something of that size off would most likely require a major actor. Follow the money in ASIC miner sales........ Though I imagine someone pulls a stunt like that the blow back in bad publicity may not be worth it and the victory becomes pyrrhic at best since not all coins out there are vunerable to that attack.
Latest bitcoin daily chart:
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg60ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv
Looks like it dropped about $100. But I'm sure it's on its way to 6 figures real soon.
1) Remember that $80,000,000 worth of mining equipment quickly becomes $Infinite worth. There isn't that much AISC manufacturing capability in the world. The Feds would have to build their own manufacturing infrastructure first. To say it will cost $80,000,000 is just inaccurate.
2) is impossible without first buying up a lot of bitcoins, which would be extremely counterproductive. Leverage in that market is hard to come by. You can make a "paper" bitcoin market, but I don't think anyone would trust it, and they certainly wouldn't allow the price to be set there.
3) Bank participation isn't really neccessary. People settling the frontier didn't need mortgages, neither do bitcoiners. They can be bought locally, or you can offer something to trade for them to get into the system. That would only limit speculation, which would probably be a good thing. We want to replace the current financial system, not chase hot money (well, most of us).
4) >Not encrypting your traffic
Thanks for the actual valid criticisms, though.
The only thing that I really have any fear of with regard to bitcoin is the potential for quantum computing to render individual wallets vulnerable to theft. That is sci-fi, for now at least. Anti-quantum methods would probably be written into the protocol pretty quickly if that became a problem.
1) There isn't $80M worth of ASIC capability in the world? We are only talking about <100K dies, in an immersion cooling bath of course. FoxConn makes more chips than that while Tim Cook eats lunch. I will point out my own flaw though. It would require having spent the $80,000,000 six months ago, and today would be more than that, because you need to equal the power of the mining community 6 months from now.
2) The FBI already has Dread Pirate Roberts' stash to work with. The point of manipulation without a paper market is you concentrate existing selling into narrow time windows that overcome the bid stack.
3) I would love as much as you for a monetary system to be free of banks, but for now, every merchant I have heard of is using a bank account, even my local traders do. Perhaps post-apocalypse we can resettle and not be in debt up to our eyeballs.
4) You are correct that encryption would defeat any filtering attempt (short of actually breaking the whole Internet).
5) Everyone seems to forget that BTC could also be targeted, manipulated, and possibly destroyed in the same manner that is being used to manipulate the gold and silver markets. *They* could setup exchanges to buy/sell futures contracts for BTC, but allow settlement in cash without requiring the seller to actually deliver the BTC. Then, they can do the same shenanigans they currently do with gold and silver. No special crypto knowledge and hardware required and they already understand how to do that.
On another note, I am also tired of the binary approach that some of the pro-gold/anti-BTC folks here take that you are stupid to buy BTC. I only spent some of my spare funny money on some BTC way back and now it has appreciated by about 900% (in dollar terms). I know that my BTC could be worthless tomorrow, and I would accept that as a loss. But, when trying to keep ones eggs out of a single basket, it is stupid to ignore a basket with the potential of BTC. If you have a couple thousand eggs, why not put one of them in the BTC basket. Just makes sense to me. As a hedge against currency collapse, I believe that BTC has value just as gold and silver do. If BTC does grow into even a fraction of the potential that I see in it, then it will appreciate alot more. That is why I am holding it. I know it is a bit speculative, but I am not banking on it, by any means, I am hedging with it. I am hedging against currency collapse with it, just as I do by holding gold, silver, copper, BTC, real estate, and even some stocks. Of course, I also have USD to be able to do day-to-day business. (The one thing I am totally avoiding is government debt, as that is the bubble of all bubbles and serves no purpose for me.)
I say if nothing else currency or not argument things like crypto-currencies are at least from a collateral and transactional standpoint for commercie that they are fungible to digital cash aka EUR/USD/CNY when they reside in the same digital realm. I think the free market has been pretty clear on that considering the demand.
With that said if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.......
As far as the basic design goes the real prize is the idea of the blockchain and underlying mathematics that allow for it be distributed and processed in a parallelized way. For a payment processing system it can be scaled up to be searched and sorted and keep track of transactions for extremely large m x n matrics since it is a variation on a markow chain and it is sequential nature. Bitcoin's blockchain implentation is far from perfect but it is a 1st gen attempt at it in the real world. Bitcoin fanbois need to realize you are only the first step in the evolution here not the whole game. It is more than the coin aspect. That whole idea of a block chain and distributed ledger has plenty of applications. There is anonymity issues to work out plus scalability and distribution a large scale ledger. It can be done though, google has already proved that with markhov chains, that is basic underlying math of their search engine taking links, putting them into a directed graph then in turn into an M X N Markhov Chain Matrix and searching and sorting that by breaking the matrix into smaller chunks for machines to work on and store each chunk in parallel.
The biggest issue with bitcoin's blockchain besides the scalability issue is the that companies like coinvalidation are working to undermine the fungibility of bitcoin because the blockchain is not truely anonymous.
Some of the alt coins are working on this very problem with blockchain implementations they are rolling out.
Stablecoin is a good one for people who want to read more how they are implementing something called coin mixing.
http://54.242.128.134/stablecoin.net/#mixing
Don't put too much into bitcoin as brand because that can be lost over time as things evolve at it loses market share especially if it doesn't keep up with progress being made competition in this arena. The underlying technologies and math though are here to stay regardless and there will be growth taking and tailoring it for new services and such and not just in the financial services industry.
Some more reading on this from a technical standpoint.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_chain
And some non-financial applications.
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_chain
And some hardcore mathematics about block-structured markhov chains. This for discrete chains.
http://people.math.carleton.ca/~zhao/research/pstexfiles/mam3/mam3.pdf
And a simplier reason follow the fucking money.
http://coinmarketcap.com/ripple.html
bitcoin alone right now based on the current exchange rate to USD is valued at just a hair under ~10B right now.
That is not small potatoes and any big player would want a piece of that market selling transaction services.
That is only bitcoin the whole market cap for the 51 coins and services like protoshares right now is at $13,409,015,335.
That is big enough numbers to get the big boys interested.
All I can say is, God Bless the Swiss, if only for throwing a monkey wrench in to the current machinations geared against peer-to-peer accounting.
Here is Rupert Murdoch's latest propaganda on Bitcoin:
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/the-seedy-bit-why-people-are-getting-naked-for-bitcoins/story-fn5lic6c-1226784071411
That should get the moms and pops on board!!
So they are speaking about themselves, after all?
I'd give it a 3/10.
It's basically on the same bar as recent MDB crap. (+pics of kinda gross chix)
You'd think they would find better looking pictures and stories..
And I say, "Hey Murdoch, you seedy FUCKER! Tap any phones lately? STFU!"
Here I was thinking that internet porn peddlers, smugglers, et al. used dollars.
There must be at least three different ways to say it. Still, saying is one thing and doing is entirely another thing.
BITTERCOIN ........................all day everyday 24/7...............the bittercoin du jour is served with swiss cheese. edit: And today as always your waiter is ...fonestar. Tip accordingly
The Swiss actually speak three languages: German, French and Italian.
"My prediction is that the first countries to officially adopt Bitcoin as their currency will thrive like no other."
I think "thriving" is a bit more complicated than that.
@fonestar: "My prediction is that the first countries to officially adopt Bitcoin as their currency will thrive like no other."
If the Swiss were to recognize BTC, and to link it to GOLD bullion, then the Stuff would really hit the fan. But, knowing the Swiss, they'd likely sell you AU for BTC only if you keep the AU in their vaults
Hey, it's not their vault they think that way. They're Swiss!
My prediction is that the first countries to officially adopt Bitcoin as their currency will thrive like no other.
Oh my God. So a country will "thrive" if it controls a bunch of 0's and 1's on a computer hard drive? Really? Do you know when countries thrive? When they produce real, tangible goods. Natural resources or manufactured goods. Trying to co-opt or make a vig off the latest money-for-nothing scam will not make countries thrive.
The bitcoin-istas are really starting to bore me. So delusional. So evangelical. So tedious.
I don't really expect this to enlighten you, but the theory that led fonestar to his prediction is rather simple and elegant.
Central banks control fiat currency. They devalue it, print more, and give it to their crony friends. BitCoin is designed to not allow this, and in fact makes the central bank irrelevant and unnecessary. In an economy where price discovery is not tampered with, and assuming thhat Bitcoin stabilizes in value, people would once again focus on creating real, tangible goods instead of using their capital to speculate in the stock market and build ever-more-complex financialization schemes (which are just the bankers' version of a get-rich-quick scheme). Then, by your own theory, the country would thrive.
While it is interesting that the Swiss are considering it - I fully expect some back-and-forth on this issue by many countries before the "Bitcoin Tide" is made plain. They'll probably hedge their bets until it looks like a "sure thing" that Bitcoin won't go away.
And of course, by that time, it may be too late for sovereigns anyway. China is starting to screw with exchanges that aren't based in Hong Kong, so there's that front as well. Just part of the whole tussle between the state and free enterprise, with the fate of their currency in the balance.
Very wise. "uncertainties", and "unknowns"; are not things one needs in one's savings.
The uncertainties and unknowns are for those holding fiat cash. Especially fiat cash in a legacy banking institution.
Do we need any more indications that this "alternative" to the Internation Bankster Scum's phony money has now been swallowed by the forementioned octopus ?
Soon I will issue my own improved virtual currency "shitcoin". Will the Swiss recognize that too? What about my brother in laws new currency "godcoin"?
If your coin is secure enough and manages to get enough people to use it, sure. The message behind Bitcoin is not that it is a better currency, it is that people will try damn near anything to get away from central bankers. And if they are not allowed to vote with their wallets, one way or another they will eventually vote with their pitchforks.
Until their wallets are taken or taxed away, they will not vote with pitchforks. Such is the nature of complacency.
My point is that there are an unlimited number of new and improved forms of currency.
Re: "godcoin"
If it trades favorably for Sunday BBQ, count me in.
Re: "shitcoin"
Clearing is crucial.... crucial.
The CBs will recognize the "Godcoin", if your brother-in-law is Evelyn de Rothschild. It's probably in the works.
Remind me again how the BOE got started a few hundred years ago? The bigger the bully/crook (i.e., sovereign/banker), the bigger the scam.
And a big "Fuck You" for the pyschopath with the presidential cuff-links.
Like virtual toilet paper?
where is Fonestar?!!!!!!!!
fonestar is always with you.
Like herpes, it just won't go away.
>> Like herpes,
I never want to get that again.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA !!! LOL !
Just ANOTHER in a LONG chain of evidence that Shitcoin will become irrelevent for the wannabe anarchic script-kiddies who think they are the next Neo from the Matrix.
PPSSSsssstt....here's a secret. Swiss banks just rolled over for the American government in opening their books to see who is stashing cash to avoid taxes. So much for Swiss banks being a safe haven.
The Mafia (government/corporations....aka......CorpFed ) wants AND will take their cut. Including from your virtual stack of Shitcoins.
Keep the GPU's mining motherfuckers.........you're going to need more computers to make up for dwindling margins due to taxation and normalization of Shitcoin.
LOL !!!!!!!
Exemplary moron.
Thanks....I'd rather be that that a shitbag child playing Central Banker from your shitbag apartment thinking you're somehow going to change the world......like all psychopaths have through out time.
ROTFLMFAO !!!!!
To point out everything I dislike about this comment would take up too much of my time.
Are you still rolling on the floor Jumbotron? Still laughing your ass off? You should stay there and spare us from your ignorance.
Why yes......<chuckle>......yes, I am.....GUFFAW......HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA WOOOOooooo Hoooooo LOL !!!!
shit coin is an NSA/google joint venture. people get blinded by their desire to escape the banker/fiat prison... only to fall into version 2.0.
So the government was smart enough to produce a tool to cut the heart out of the financial system, and perhaps all government interference in the marketplace while making cryptoanarchists rich?
Look, guys, when you are analyzing a situation to see if there is a conspiracy at work, you have to assume it worked as intended and see who benefits.
Show me the benefit to the banks, or the government. All I see is a bunch of crypto-anarchists getting rich at the expense of the banks.
Tmosley I did not junk you. I think the government is not smart enough to produce anything of value. But is smart enough to understand that it can be the most successful parasite out there, and strives to do so. So give it time with bitcoin, and lets see what shakes out.
+1
Certainly true, they are excellent leaches and will have to attack at some point. The usual methods are not far away. FUD (failing), regulation, taxation, criminilization, diversion to "better" products such as Ripple, etc.
bankers own most governments. getting rid of national currencies is a step in the direction of greater banker control, not less. according to their plans, national governments will become less relevant, less powerful. a global digital fiat currency will be the nail humanity's coffin. bitcoin is just TPTB running a trial balloon.
Good point. On the flipside, an independent global fiat currency that is *not* run by the banks or governments is a true boon and liberating to people overall. I agree until your last sentence. I can't stomp out conspiracy, but can draw a logical argument that if governments and banks decide we will use a digital currency, then there isn't much anybody can do to stop it from replacing current fiat. Of course, there will always be barter and PM's...
But if Bitcoin is as I believe it is an independently developed application which undermines government and fiat and places control into the hands of citizens, then it is worth backing up. Central authorities are not the only entities which can run trial ballooins.
"I think the government is not smart enough to produce anything of value."
+1 just for that.
"But is smart enough to understand that it can be the most successful parasite out there, and strives to do so. So give it time with bitcoin, and lets see what shakes out."
YES! Bitcoin is often touted as an anonymous way to transfer funds. At its heart it is a transaction log that details every movement of every coin since creation. These coins are sent from anonymous address to anonymous address. In time there will be tools to link *anonymous* addresses to real people. Childs play for something like the NSA. What will result is complete transparency for all movement of coin since the beggining of Bitcoin. It will be cross referenced with many things like location, demographics and so on. Commercial services could eventually offer this capability to the highest bidder.
So yeah, I think this beautiful thing called Bitcoin will be subverted by TPTB/Commercial Interests much like the Internet has.
but the NSA only uses meta-data...they said so last night on 60 Minutes.
"Look, guys, when you are analyzing a situation to see if there is a conspiracy at work, you have to assume it worked as intended and see who benefits."
This is what I have been saying tmosley. Conspiracy is like any other crime, you need to establish motive. In the case of a supposed Bitcoin-government conspiracy there is none to be found. The very last thing a broke, desperate and loathed financial system would want to contend with now is something like Bitcoin.
Statists, fascists and other miscreants have already had their crack at tradeable digital commodities. Those are the private data of customers, website users, the tapped phone conversations and e-mails, credit card numbers, early access to press releases and tradeable data and so on. This is an already established concept with them - it involves selective sharing of data that conveys some perceived power. I don't think that any of them ever saw the need for a leap from that concept to something like Bitcoin.
On the other hand, it is well known that reliable cryptocurrencies have been something of a holy grail for crypto-anarchists for decades.
Who do you think would have the motivation and talent to invent it?
Everyone is getting very nervous that there is a new player in the fiat game. Especially when it's not been captured by the state or the bigs.
Satoshi for President of Nowhere!
[edited for typo in name]
we went almost 15 mins without a bitcoin thread. I think that is a record.
Nearing mania phase, hold, hold, hold, abort!!!
TeamDepends, mania phase was last month. Next mania phase is scheduled for March/April.
Nice Fonestar!! I upped arrowed you!!
It is my understanding that capital gain is not taxed in Switzerland, and that you can park your money without defaul/bail-in/bankruptcy risks. If recognized as a currency, Bitcoins could be stored and freely flow inside and thru the swiss borders. It would also mean that it would be the place to store them and a possible positive for the swiss economy / if it is a bust, theyi loose nothing. The Swiss will never seize your bitcoins: if threatened, they will ask you to move, or will fight back the threatener till the end.
I thought that Bitcoins do not really exist in any particular place. So what does it mean to store your Bitcoins in Switzerland, or any other specific country? Isn't the wallet simply a record of transactions and a set of passwords to retrieve your Bitcoins? Why would it matter where this record is stored?
(Just getting started understanding this software system. Set up the multibit wallet and added a very small amount of Bitcoin as an experiment.)
I've seen phisical bitcoins where you can write wallet code + password etc on a plastic token, and secure it in a vault.
It is my understanding that this practice is threatened by the USgov.
On a sidenote.
THE MONEY AND THE PRICE OF MONEY SHOULD BE FREE. Are not. Hedge accordingly.
“Nowadays people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.”? Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
I assume the value of my Silver is about the same as it was to a Roman in 50BC; that's good enough for me. As for the rest of it; meh.
" Why would it matter where this record is stored? "
It doesn't matter where this record is stored. When you buy something online with bitcoins, the online shop doesn't receive any physical bitcoin from you, but they have a record on their digital wallet saying that it's theirs.
That could go the same with swiss banks, if bitcoin acquires a legal status as currency. They would not receive any physical bitcoins, but nonetheless there would be a record on their digital wallet saying they "have" legally your bitcoins .
bitcoin = algo currency backed by an algo and some code
USD = currency backed by a military
hmmmm, which one to choose????
Easy. The one that let's you really choose for yourself.
You don't choose to make love to your rapist, no one with a clear mind would call that a choice.
Denarius. Backed by the worlds greatest military.
hmmmmmm, whas up with dat?
I'll chose Bitcoin because an idea is far more powerful than all the standing armies on Earth.
Long Quarkcoin till 200
Quarkcoin.......now THAT'S a stable currency. It either exists or doesn't depending on what is measuring it.....much less assigning a value to it.
Quarkcoin. You can either know where it's at or where it's going, but not both.
If bitcoin can reach 1000$, why shouldn't quark?
Or petrocks; don't forget PetRocks. or the stock for PetRocks.com; that too. and many other things. Tulips. Tulips could become "worth" $1,000; I know it doesn't sound very likely, but it's possible. (sarc.).
Because just like Shitcoin.....it's worthless and $1,000 at the same time......depending on whether you live in reality or are a Shitcointard.
LOL !!!!!
Ron Paul comes out and says Bitcoin (fiat currency) has the potential to wreck the dollar. The good thing about that is that it takes the fiat currency power away from the FED and decentralizes the fiat ponzi scheme.
Since ponzi schemes, like Bitcoin always collapse, there has to be a transition then to a gold/asset backed... basket of commodities....whatever that might be.
The FED is effectively neutralized....that's the important thing.
New! Condomcoin. Safety first. Protects the user. Prevents replication. Prevents supply expansion. Everyone loves to do it, used world wide. Works across borders. Safe exchanges. Totally peer to peer. Decentralized. Easy flow without lubrication. Excellent velocity. Cumming soon.
A. B. P. G. S
anything but physical God and Silver...
stack....
"physical god"
the most hilarious typo I read in a while.
If only god were physical... all scientist would be all over him, making experiments figuring out how god works. lol
i just noticefd it...
made me laugh as well...GOLD DAMMIT....
Bitcoin will be integrated into the financial system to be exploited by the banksters just like any other form of currency or asset. All the better to be used as a financial weapon of mass-destruction.
rothschild run and blackmailed swiss bank system say go ahead the yahudi cabal must be in.
maybe even in the beginning yes no.
Fucking Ron Paul.....now THAT was a guy who changed things and.......oh ...wait......he's retired.....his son is a RINO.....and NOTHING GOT CHANGED !!!!
RON PAUL 2028 !!!!!! (Hey, if dead people can vote all the time.....why can't a dead guy run for office ?) ROTFLMFAO !!!!!!!
To all you haters!!! (I do not own any Bitcoin) Too risky for me, however, I do respect Fonestars opinion. (he does invest in other things as well) I am here to learn, not argue...Thanks to all on ZH!!!
You could set up the digital wallet on your computer, with passwords and encryption as needed, then beg one of your friends to send you 25 cents worth of bitcoin. Learning with very little risk.
I've tried that after attempts to buy with
cashearlier this year... no luck
19MxBJDEoThgo7NrZW1Rf3uupNC7FF982x
do I have any friends here?
thanks do chen for your documentation. good work
If you can't afford a bitcoin, you could try litecoin, peercoin or feathercoin.
earlier this year it was not about affordibility
~100$. it was obtaining them.
went online to purchase and the first question
was... what is your date of birth.
whats with that?
did not go any farther
One of my next tasks is to find out how to buy BTC in our city (and by extension other cities) for CA$H. Stay tuned, maybe this week I will know more.
that would be a big help!
http://robertmixblog.blogspot.com/2013/12/fun-with-bitcoin-for-beginners-part-four.html
Yes, I have a major concern with handing out bank account numbers and other personal info to these "exchanges" when I know nothing about them, who runs them, are they reliable? How to resolve disputes?
This is separate from understanding the Bitcoin software. The Bitcoin system itself could be trustworthy even if some of the financial actors are not trustworthy.
ahhh but these exchanges are surely supported by the most powerful of royalty... of Nigeria!
sign me up now - SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!! http://www.42gadgets.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg
Thank you! Do not worry about one thing, when my 0.25 oz Gold Eagle arrives, everyone will hear about it (inc. our noisy neighbors above).
noisy indeed. to a fault.
you're welcome and good luck
my experiment involves
0.25 oz. Acapulo gold.
scientific purposes only.
Bitcoin is the MLM of currencies. And now even some Amways guys accept it so you get double the pyramid power.
Wake up WORLD! Can’t you see what this scheme really is? This is criminal! You want to put your hands on your (so called) money by making a withdrawal??? I don’t think so! There will NEVER be another bank run because your (so called) money will be held within a clearing house with nowhere to run off too during financially troubling times. This is the ultimate form of Marxism, Communism or whatever you want to call it. I prefer to call it the ULTIMATE SLAVERY. All the government has to do is a little programming and all of the sudden they block your attempted purchase of a fire arm or ammo or maybe they decide that it isn’t in your best interest to subscribe to that Playboy channel or even better, maybe the government decides that that book you are interested in is just too biased against the establishment, so they just conveniently and efficiently block your transaction. Oh, but it doesn’t end there these are only the less creative ways they will begin to control you once this digital (so called) money system officially goes into use. Think about it. This is truly the most efficient tax collector on the planet! Eventually, you won’t even have to fill out a tax form! Wow, how fun is that! Good old Uncle Sam will get every penny it deserves!
That's also exactly what is called for by Zeitgeist aka Venus Project aka Peter Joseph Merola & Jacques Fresco (allegedly "broke up").
Total global domination of all world resources, no ownership, no choice, only the allocations determined by a "computer" (a global cabal using a computer network they own for the planet to dictate to you what you may use or not). They will decide all the reasons why or why not, are not obligated to tell you anything, and the more you are restricted the more is "left over" for whatever purpose they see fit (0.0000001% of the world's population) and shall call it "abundance".
The one very important thing Bitcoin can/could do for Switzerland is to balance the demand for CHFr. All Switzerland has to do is to guarantee part of BTCs value.... They can easily do that as the already print a lot of new CHFr in order to dampen the value of CHFr. If Switzerland would do that BTC would over night be an established currency/storage of value , better than Gold and anything else since it is easily traded and moved all over the Globe in an instant.
Dont count on it, Central bankers are not prone to be cleaver
Please stop calling bitcoin "fiat currency" when it is not. Please use the correct terms or your argument doesn't hold water. A fiat currency is by government order. No government is forcing people to use bitcoin, they are chosing to use it.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME ??? NOT FIAT CURRENCY ?????
FIAT MONEY IS "MONEY WITHOUT INTRINSIC VALUE"
In Latin fiat means...."It shall be"
So WHOEVER says something is worth something......VOILA !......it is. So.....therefore.....it is all based on trust. Trust of the individual or individuals who deem something is worth something for the use of money.
NOW....real slow like.......how many PEOPLE in the world can you REALLY trust with something so valuable as your money....which is really just a symbol of your output......your work?
Yeah....that's what I thought.
Not fiat money......what a dumbass.
Boy, you just think words can mean anything you want whenever you want, huh? This is common among liberals.
Note that by your definition, gold and silver are also fiat currencies, so why even use the word fiat? It's meaningless the way you define it.
I agree it has no intrinsic value, that is not the point. The point is it is not a medium of exchange the the gov forces people to use like the USD( which also has no intrinsic value) or face penalies or even criminal charges. Bitcoin is not a fiat currency.
The word "fiat" implies force, typically force applied by governments. Bitcoin is voluntary.
That doesn't prove it is valuable, or that it is the wave of the future, but Bitcoin is not fiat.
And thanks for keeping it classy in here calling people names for no reason.
I have no class when it comes to dumbasses.
Shitcoin is the quintessential fiat currency. It isn't even backed up by work. It is simply a product of a calculator.....which is essentialy what every computer is. A glorified calculator.
Shitoshi just says...."Hey.....this cute little number spit out by my Nvidia Titan GPU is worth X......what do you guys think?" Then some dumbass says "HELL YEAH....I'D BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR !!! " And another dumbass says..."I"D BUY THAT FOR TWO DOLLARS !!" And the slightly less dumbass, dumbass waits until the price settles at 58 cents.
And all you did to earn your fucking Shitcoin was turn on your computer.
LOL !!!! NOT a fiat currency......what a dumbass !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5HOt0ZOcYk
Repost from yesterday's Bitcoin story about JPM:
On Saturday while driving across town, I saw a vendor selling throw rugs made out of cowhides at the corner of an intersection. Vendor had a sign that read "Bit Coin Accepted". I was surprised to see it show up in my town (well really a city with a population of ~300,000). Better to see that than "EBT Accepted". ;)
Now to add additional comment to my original post, I am currently on the fence about BitCoin, but to say the least, it is catching on. How it does as an alternative currency and who really started it (Satoshi or NSA), is yet to be determined. For now as usually, I'll be on the outside looking in.
accepting btc is nothing. they are assuming the btc user is a shmuck that will overpay. they take his worthless btc and sell right away for good old GREENBACKS
... and who really started it (Satoshi or NSA), is yet to be determined.
Nakamoto SAtoshi = NSA?
Since no one knows who Satoshi Nakamoto really is, there is no way to know that he is not the NSA. Or he could be the KGB or even Ronald MacDonald.
Maybe the swiss are smoking bad crack?
Sometimes the cheese get moldy and it infects the brain.
Inbreeding?
An asset that can be currency or money. Sounds familiar?
Or money that is asset.
Sorry old school fool here.BUT if anyone thinks that the PTB and the Big Banks getting on this bandwagon as a good idea, IS, then your nuts.It's all a set up.
BTC is worse than worthless. It's every utility can be replicated ad infiintum for nothing
Are they going to tie the Swiss franc to the bitcoin ?
LOL!
Bitcoin = http://youtu.be/Gq_bjaI0NTo