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Bitcoin Catches Attention Of Goldman Sachs (And Walmart, And Cisco): Goldman Director Joins Bitcoin Startup

Tyler Durden's picture




 

When Bitcoin fans were hoping for fast track adoption by the mainstream, catching the attention of the all-seeing eye of Sauron Goldman Sachs was probably low on their list of action items. Yet that is precisely what they got with the arrival of a Goldman Sachs board member M. Michele Burns, who recently joined the board of Boston-based Bitcoin payment processing system startup Circle Internet Financial.

As Fortune reports "Circle launched earlier this year, and was founded by Jeremy Allaire, who has led other Internet start-ups, but recently has become a Bitcoin evangelist. The company got $9 million in funding from a number of venture capitalist firms. Jim Breyer, a partner at Accel and an early backer of Facebook (FB), is also on Circle's board, as is Raj Date, who recently left a top post at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Circle declined to comment about Burns. Two sources with knowledge of her move confirmed it."

Perhaps of same or greater importance is that in addition to being the chair of the audit committee at the preeminent FDIC-backed hedge fund, Burns also was a board member of the largest retailer in the world, Walmart (WMT accepting BTC?), and is currently on the board of the one company that is at the nexus of the Internet economy, Cisco (and which was punished furiously following Snowden's NSA-spying revelations after projected Chinese revenues imploded and that Cisco may or may not have been collaborating with the government in leaking private data).

In fact, when one considers that in the face of Burns, Circle's proximity to Bitcoin now allows no less than three of the preeminent companies of the old and new economy to keep a close eye on the digital currency and one must be either very excited about the future of BTC.... or very worried. Because if escape from the mainstream is the main target behind the Bitcoin movement, this could be problematic now that Goldman, Cisco and Walmart are all starting to sniff around.

Why a Bitcoin transaction processing company? Simple - these companies are the middlemen that will allow much broader acceptance of BTC by merchants. Consider this in the context of the recent announcement by Overstock that it would begin accepting Bitcoin by mid-2014:

Currently 12.1 million Bitcoin are in circulation, with a total value of about $8.8 billion. At this size, the value of Bitcoin can fluctuate violently based on actions by a few big investors or the Chinese government. This is a problem: If a retailer saves 3 percent on credit card transactions, but the value of Bitcoin loses 5 percent before the retailer can convert it back into dollars, the concept will quickly lose its luster.

 

Bitcoin-processing companies such as Bitpay and Coinbase take on this risk for merchants, offering to convert Bitcoin into U.S. dollars immediately. But they might not be able to handle that risk if any serious slice of Overstock’s transactions comes in Bitcoin, says Barry Silbert, the founder and chief executive of SecondMarket and an investor in both companies. “When you start talking to companies like Overstock or Amazon, they’d only be able to guarantee those rates to a certain transaction amount,” he says. Bitpay processed $100 million in transaction in 2013. “I think the system is going to expand as quickly as it needs to,” says Stephanie Yargo, the company’s vice president of marketing.

Well, maybe not Bitpay, but its competitors such as Circle might, especially if directly or indirectly backed by the balance sheet of, say, Goldman Sachs, especially if in some joint venture with Walmart. Because whereever the money is, either fiat or digital, one can be sure to find Goldman.

Finally, here is the full bio of the Goldman and Cisco, and now Circle, director:

M. Michele Burns

Director Since: October 2011 

Committees: Chair, Audit Committee; member of all other standing committees 

Other Current Public Company Directorships: Cisco Systems, Inc.

Other Public Company Directorships within past 5 years: Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. 

Career Highlights

  • Chief Executive Officer, Retirement Policy Center, sponsored by Marsh & McLennan Companies, Inc. (MMC); Center focuses on retirement public policy issues (October 2011 - Present); Center Fellow and Strategic Advisor, Stanford University Center on Longevity (August 2012 - Present)

  • Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Mercer LLC, a subsidiary of MMC and a global leader in human resource consulting, outsourcing and investment services (September 2006 – early October 2011)

  • Chief Financial Officer, MMC, a global professional services and consulting firm (March 2006 – September 2006)

  • Chief Financial Officer, Chief Restructuring Officer and Executive Vice President, Mirant Corporation, a competitive energy company (May 2004 – January 2006)

  • Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer, Delta Air Lines, Inc., an air carrier, which filed for protection under Chapter 11 of the United States Bankruptcy Code in September 2005 (including various other positions, 1999 – April 2004)

  • Senior Partner and Leader, Southern Regional Tax Practice, Arthur Andersen LLP, an accounting firm (including various other positions, 1981 –1999)

Other Professional Experience and Community Involvement

  • Board member and Treasurer, Elton John AIDS Foundation

Experience and Qualifications

As the former Chief Financial Officer of several global public companies, Ms. Burns brings to our Board substantial expertise in accounting and the review and preparation of financial statements, which she draws upon as our Audit Committee Chair. In addition, as the former CEO of Mercer LLC, Ms. Burns brings to our Board her experience in human capital management and strategic consulting, which assists our Board in its oversight of our firm’s strategy. Through her service on the boards of directors and board committees of other public companies and not-for-profit entities, Ms. Burns has developed additional leadership and corporate governance expertise.

 

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Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:18 | 4281650 fonestar
fonestar's picture

BITCOIN!!

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:21 | 4281656 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

BITCOIN!! ... will flush Shitcoin down the toilet!

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:25 | 4281664 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

BITCON!

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:34 | 4281674 InjectTheVenom
InjectTheVenom's picture

Michele Burns ... isn't she Dick's sister ?

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:02 | 4281741 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

No, Montgomery's.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:19 | 4281774 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Doesn't look at all like Olivia Cockburns.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:23 | 4281790 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

They should've called it Circlejerk Internet Financial.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:34 | 4281806 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

Fonestar is XenoFrog.  

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:02 | 4281852 macholatte
macholatte's picture

 

 

me thinks this is the beginning of yet another digital currency that will become less volitile and blessed by the establishment..... made legitimate, then the squid will own it.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:55 | 4281935 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"Michele Burns ... isn't she Dick's sister ?"

I would touch neither the Bitcoin nor the Director.   Not even with a stolen dick.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 15:24 | 4282013 BellyBrain
BellyBrain's picture

The mid-term future of money is BTC and other crypto currencies.

The long-term future of money is NO money.

Humans will eventually realize that money is the cornerstone of their enslavement and move towards something like a Resource Based Economy combined with a time-bank system so that people can exchange services amongst each other, with everyone's time valued equally.  But that's a long way off.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 17:05 | 4282159 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

"The long-term future of money is NO money."

Yes, but not as you imagine and not a long way off.

Instead, crypto-currencies will relentlessly increase purchasing power, even as the productivity of advanced technology (think: computer electronics) does likewise. The combination will, in a few short decades (if that), drive prices to the vanishing point, at which time material scarcity will give way to abundance, and money — along with wealth and poverty — will pass into history.

And so, too, will the state, as it is nothing if not scarcity-based and will therefore have no place is a world of abundance.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 18:07 | 4282286 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

First when the dollar dies, the companies wont want to exchange bitcoin into anything else. GS is picking the wrong business model for the long term.

In my opinion the long term money making service will be bitcoin vaults. Safe storage. Already 500,000 out of 12,000,000 bitcoins have been lost.

Second GS may just finally have a useful role to play.

Bitcoin will force honesty onto the market place. I'm not saying we will get rid of these. But the cozy relationship between the counterfeitter in chief and its subsidaries will fall by the wayside.

Will GS adopt and thrive or remain stuck in its old ways?

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 20:15 | 4282458 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

"First when the dollar dies, the companies wont want to exchange bitcoin into anything else."

So why bother? Just exchange Bitcoin as the money of a new, free, truly democratic order that has no need of government fiat or even of government:

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-governance-free-society

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:12 | 4286901 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

the grid won't even BE HERE to use for any such cryptocurrencies. They will all die because the grid itself will be gone.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:08 | 4286899 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

gold & silver coin as money is a resource-based economy. Gold & silver are resources. As is oil, medicine, etc.
A no-money system is a no-economy no-resources system.
The day money is never used is the day resources don't exist.
You sound like you've been brainwashed by the Penus Project and Zeitshite into pretending the precise opposite of a resource based economy is a resource based economy, pretending that the precise OPPOSITE of abundance is abundance.
The preaching of Jaques Fresco and Peter Joseph Merola, frauds extraordinaire, is that by metering every atom & ensuring you can have some only by their permission of a global computing system and only on a time-share, it will be "abundant".
Things which are abundant DON'T NEED TO BE METERED OR SHARED, that's HOW YOU KNOW IT'S ABUNDANT.

Fucking morons.

As for valuing time equally that's NONSENSE: MY TIME IS WORTH MORE THAN YOURS because I do better things WITH my time than you can.
Until you're as smart as I am, and as productive, your time is WORTH MUCH LESS than mine.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:54 | 4281956 Spigot
Spigot's picture

And like the Andromeda Strain, "if you nuke it, we'll never be rid of it". Thing is, anyone can duplicate Bitcoin, call it 'macaroni' and use it within their group for trade. So, if goldman ends up owning BTC, it will simply be replaced by the people.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 17:49 | 4282257 Mr. Magoo
Mr. Magoo's picture

Let the manipulation begin

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 20:43 | 4282495 malikai
malikai's picture

Just because you're evil, doesn't mean you're stupid.

I'd figure it takes smarts to be able to survive as evil.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 00:23 | 4282763 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

"Just because you're evil, doesn't mean you're stupid. I'd figure it takes smarts to be able to survive as evil."

I recently read (here on ZH?) that you don't have to be smart if you can make people stupid.

Given that the state has no greater objective than to make its subjects stupid, that it might plunder them all the easier, I would counter your figuring by saying that evil survives by staying one step ahead of the stupidity that it propagates.

That this is an evolutionary dead-end should be obvious, and reason enough (as if more were needed) to put an end to the state.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:06 | 4286885 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

and may the odds ever be in your FAVAHHhhhhh

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:36 | 4281672 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

 

 

Bitcoin is a phenomenom that needs urgent study.  

My best understanding of it (and, again, I am an outsider and a beginner) leads me to think that the apparently open-source nature of the software and the network may mean it is sturdy and can be thoroughly studied by those who are very adept.

My knowledge of the math and encryption behind BTC is superficial.  But, there are almost surely many more smarter brains available to thoroughly examine BTC's architecture and any likely weaknesses.

The NSA (et al) has a LOT of very smart people.  But, I think that "there are more of us than there are of them."

BTC appears to be a worthy addition to the toolboxes of those of us who yearn for freedom and financial independence.  I hope that the technical community probes BTC to the utmost, and that it indeed works as advertised.

EDIT:

I would add that surely BTC has gotten a lot of notice just from the ZH community alone, with so many here who are smart and able to take a crack at looking very hard at BTC.  ZH has done a tremendous service, IMO, by publicizing this interesting new technology.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:42 | 4281697 kushmere
kushmere's picture

The movement the Snowden releases have started will be a major factor in the near term future of security. The first time it becomes publically known that the NSA has changed a bank account will be an event. The democratization of money is inevitable.

Also, agreed above on your post.

http://bestbitcoinsites.wordpress.com

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:44 | 4282147 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

A nice, easy way to wreck an organization would be to fake a transfer from its treasury to the account of one of its most competent leaders.  Vaporizing the money would be optional. 

P.S.  What will Sauron do with the bitcoins when the blockchain becomes too big for anyone else to handle?  Will people trust this Squid larva to manage their bitcoins?  Of course they will...

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 17:07 | 4282198 Hapa
Hapa's picture

a well thought-out sinister view on Bitcoin becoming co-opted by the CONTROLLERS:

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/will-digital-currency-replace-the-us-dollar...

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 17:38 | 4282241 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

Yes, the govt knows the dollar is done.  Bitcoin comes equipped with NSA backdoors to mining, covering every system of hashing and rehashing, and likely the lion's share of the already half mined going to the govt.

Open source will not protect it from backdoors hidden in crypotgraphy.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:04 | 4286876 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

actually that's precisely what opensource does:
you remove the offending cryptography & replace it with another.
However, btc won't be saved by this. BTC's inherent flaw is a physical grid for comms that isn't owned by its users AND a second grid for POWER also not owned by its users, and utter destruction if EITHER ONE is compromised with NO WAY to stop such a compromise.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 19:21 | 4282370 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

Good insigntful article, thanks.  Assorted NWO types have taken an interest in BitCoin under the pretense of supporting economic freedom.  I agree that TPTB plan to co-opt BitCoin, which is why the American media and government treatment of BTC has been surprisingly positive. 

One major flaw with the article:  It states that BTC can be printed and handed out as easily as a few keystrokes at the Fed.  This isn't true.  TPTB would have to control 51% of BTC mining in order to do this.  But they will get it eventually.  Mining requires a complete blockchain, so as transaction volume increases, mining will be centralized in the diminishing number of supercomputers that can keep up.  The last few supercomputers will be controlled by the Squid, JPM, the NSA, the Rothschilds, and maybe a couple mining pool owners who will get offers they can't refuse. 

By the end of the decade the main contenders in the currency wars will probably be cryptocurrencies, gold-backed BRICS currencies, and maybe a corrupt but supposedly gold-backed currency manipulated by the IMF.  These currencies will duke it out to see who can suck up the most physical gold.  BTC will do it by creating a deflationary black hole before it is rendered unusable.  The other currencies will suck up gold when TPTB lend at interest while maintaining the gold backing, then they will start up the usual games again, issuing unbacked paper in exchange for the last gold of the sheeple. 

At some point all this hoarding will become utterly pointless.  What will they buy with it?  A seat at the Annunakis' table?  TPTB will be in for a surprise.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 19:34 | 4282403 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

hapa, it's an interesting article, but i would not agree with the contention that it's "well thought-out".

the article is overly conspiratorial in nature, and makes many, many assumptions about the "N.W.O" / "Controllers", and what their actions and motives are.

if the author of the article had half as much insight about the "controllers" as he claims, he'd be a multi-billionaire by front running them.

i would expect rantings of this calibre from alex jones, et al.

 

the fact remains that bitcoin is a way for people to transact directly, bypassing the banking system, and i will continue to use bitcoin.

 

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 01:15 | 4282800 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I agree stacking12321.  The authors did a weak job in trying to "prove" "Controllers" and weaknesses in the encryption.  So far, my experience with (and study of) Bitcoin has been a success and has not thrown off the foul odor of .gov...

I would certainly agree about the authors recommending gold.  Far more of the Central Bank of DoChenRollingBearing's reserves are in gold vs. BTC.

But, BTC is worth watching.  Open-source means (I hope) aggressive examination of the entire Bitcoin Ecosystem.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 05:29 | 4282907 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

yes indeed, dcrb.

gold & silver are best for savings. i put a few % in BTC, but it's speculative, of course.

what really excites me about bitcoin is not the specuation / investment value of the BTC units, but the potential that the bitcoin network has to radically transform the way we transact. if we can pull the bankster leeches off our backs that suck away 2% of every credit card transaction, that adds up to serious wealth. and how perfect, and how perfectly natural, that we can send money to anyone we want, any day, any time, without restriction, without having to report to anyone what the money is for or have to fill out any report if it's over $10k. it's truly liberating.

open-source means there's potential for aggressive examination of the code. there's many fringe open source projects with barely any eyeballs on them.

but open-source plus big profit motive (such as with the bitcoin protocol) means that if there is a weakness to exploit in bitcoin, it is already known and being heavily exploited.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:54 | 4281713 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Bitcoin is easy. Genius of it and the bottle neck is the public record block chain that records the movement of every bitcoin. What this allows is the deletion of a clearing house a.k.a. "a bank" to process the transfer and verify and guaratee the transfer of funds and also to store funds in "acconts" for later use, while they charge you fees. Banks dont like this as you can imagine. Since every transaction is recorded in the block chain the chain is getting really big now, the more people use it the bigger it gets. Some rework of the system is going to be needed, but it will come from as you say smarter people then us.

It's growth potential relies on two things. It's increase in places it can be spent and the number of other currancy units being printed by central banks

The current volatility will subside when Bitcoin finds it's fair market value in comparison to other currencies. What is $50 trillion divided by 12 million BTC and you'll start getting close.

The encryption technology doesnt matter. If the goverment wants to come and take your "wealth" than they will. No matter what you try to do to hind it.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:55 | 4281732 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

India moves to block bitcoin http://rt.com/news/bitcoin-india-exchange-halt-911/

 

Stack On

Ritchez

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:04 | 4281745 Stackers
Stackers's picture

If you read the full story on this one ...... No India did not move to block Bitcoin. It shut down one exchange that was operating illegally under it's money transfer laws.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 15:00 | 4281971 BitStorm
BitStorm's picture

Dummy couldn't even make it to the second sentence....

"The Reserve Bank of India has warned users, holders and traders of virtual currencies, including bitcoins, about "potential financial, legal, customer protection and security related risks" they are exposing themselves to."

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 17:40 | 4282247 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

They are just making sure they get their tax cut.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:13 | 4281765 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

"If the goverment wants to come and take your "wealth" than they will. No matter what you try to do to hind it."

I'm sure that was some kind of Freudian slip. Hind it....as....in your hind end. Pretty sure you meant to say hide it but most certainly the government is used to sticking it in our hind ends. All the government has to do if they see BTC as a threat is to allocate a small part of their computing power (see: Bluffdale, UT) to mining and decrypting the damned things and have their proxies at Google, Facebook and Amazon do likewise. Voila! All out of the system. P.S. - the little ABC box with the check mark is a spell checker.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:36 | 4281811 stock trout
stock trout's picture
I hind my money in the Caymans.  Nope, spell checker doesn't correct correctly spelled words. 
Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:42 | 4281926 Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

my spellcheck does not wook

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:31 | 4281804 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Nakamoto proposed blockchain pruning, but it hasn't been implemented yet.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:58 | 4281731 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

I see BTC as more of a replacement service for Visa/MasterCard more so than a currency.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:08 | 4281747 TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

Its also a direct competitor with moneygram and western union....btc fees are way lower than any of the traditional wire services...

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:58 | 4281847 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Lot's of potential for growth, a Keynsian's wet dream.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 02:20 | 4282849 wintermute
wintermute's picture

WU share price has stalled for last 2 months. No longer following the S&P herd.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:10 | 4281751 Stackers
Stackers's picture

But your credit card is currency !!! debt = credit = money

 

It destorys Visa's fee structure

Bitcoin fee typical 0.5%

Visa 2-3%

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:12 | 4281759 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

you're pretty close to ot but the reason visa got big is that people can overdraft and pay 20% interest on that sum. Loansharking on a legal base.

So if bitcoin would ever be able to replace it, people should be able to open a wallet and go negative.
But imagine that the coin goes x10 in that case? people would be complettly broke and own those banks a vast ammount of money. And because it's unregulated that would be a recipe for disaster.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 02:22 | 4282850 wintermute
wintermute's picture

Wow. Do you comment, er brain-dump, on ZH while in REM sleep?

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 03:01 | 4282864 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

Sudden debt,

No, what you are describing is "borrowed" bitcoins at an interest rate. What should that interest rate be? I would argue 5% p.a. at the moment. US interest rates for 3mths at 1.5%, the 3% transaction rate of the Credit card companies, and the .5% transaction fee.

3 months at 5% seems like a good way to finance a short possie in Bitcoi, as well as giving the lender of Bitcoin a 5% / 3 mth return (20% per annum). Plenty of 2 way action at these carry prices.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:58 | 4286864 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

really? I can get an assigned limit of btc to borrow unsecured, even though dollars & VISA are reversible digitally, and I can default on an unsecured loan VISA gives, and do this with BTC too?
Really? I'll take 10,000 btc at 30% unsecured return rate.
I'll be back in.... never.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:08 | 4281748 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

They are interested in bitcoin because of the 2% transaction fees to buy and to sell.
So bitcoin will cost you 4% of you'r wealth if you ever want out.
So they expose a very big downside of paper money in your hand which is virtually free.

Do we really want a world where we pay 4% of our income to banks besides our taxes?!

I'll never buy that crap out of pure conviction. Bitcoin or any other virtual currency is the next criminal enterpirse.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:08 | 4281757 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Bitcoin fees are usually 0.2 to 0.5%

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:13 | 4281761 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

nop, it's 2% when you buy them and another 0.2 for every transaction.

I don't like to pay extra for every transaction.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:20 | 4281781 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

Your argument assumes people are not already Bitcoin holders.  If you buy any foreign currency before you make a purchase you have to pay a fee for both.  BTW, Bitcoin can be sent for ZERO fees, it just takes a while longer.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/11/23/heres-who-p...

The Bitcoin Channel

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 19:57 | 4282430 void_ptr
void_ptr's picture

Premiums on gold and silver bullion are higher than that.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:55 | 4286856 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

and with good reason - you get physical atoms, something with intrinsic value and once you have it no one else can just get it with hacking or accounting tricks be used to degrade what those atoms can do.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:13 | 4281835 chemystical
chemystical's picture

A question regarding the urgency/study:

There used to be a somewhat consistent relationship between Btc price volatility and the number of Btc Days Destroyed*.  That's been confounded a cople of times but nowhere nearly as much as a few weeks ago.

* most of you know this but for those who don't, blockchain.info/charts tracks this metric (rather they've paid someone else for the program that tracks it).  If I hold 100 Btc for 365 days and then use them all in transaction(s) today, then on this date I wil have destroyed 365,000 Btc Days

Once upon a time you could look at those charts and say, "Hmm, someone with a lot of old Btc just used them (dumped them, cashed out their chips, pick your phrase)." 

Check out the 30 day chart of total days detroyed where the min age of the Btc is 1yr, see the HUGE spike a week ago, and then look at the transactions fee chart for the same day, then look at the # of transactions chart, then then largest transactions chart, ....

What's the lack of a spike much less a pimply blip for transaction fees on that day tell you?  Someone moved a lot of Btc without incurring commensurate expense.   How so and with what purpose?

I assume that this was someone like mtgox or bitstamp shuflling their funds, but from where to where, and I didn't see that on the day's biggest transactions. 

http://blockchain.info/charts/bitcoin-days-destroyed-min-year?timespan=30days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

http://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees?timespan=30days&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 19:36 | 4282406 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

the joos did it!

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 15:05 | 4281980 scrappy
scrappy's picture

Try reading this and refuting it BC fans...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/will-digital-currency-replace-the-us-dollar...

We will be waiting a long time for your refutation I think.

 

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:45 | 4282153 Hapa
Hapa's picture

This globalresearch article is important to read.  I can't refute it.  Too many .01% ers are climbing on the band wagon.  Bitcoin will be the future digital solution for the western powers, as we no longer have the gold.  This is the one world currency option in disguise. Bitcoin is co-opting the 'alternative' community and will divide ZH'ers. The digital solution will be controlled by the CONTROLLERS.  It is a fantasy that the Bitcoin architecture will keep anyone from making more than 21 million bitcoins.  Everything can be changed behind the scenes, and no one will be the wiser.  Bitcoin WILL become the de facto currency, and will force people onto non-physical money.  This is the only solution for the western elites to keep their ponzi theme going.  IMO, this won't work, because they won't be able to force everyone onto it soon enough.  PM will win the day, as a purely digital currency is a ruse, a fantasy that this technology will forever secure a monetary democratization.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:55 | 4282178 Sashko89
Sashko89's picture

I completely agree with both of you, and everyone should check out the globalresearch article, in my point of view it is the closest thing to the truth about the future of the cryptocurrencies... I remember 5/6 years when I first learned about the NWO shit and bitcoin didn't exist yet, I already remember reading that the NWO wet dream is a global digital currency... Now that shit is becoming a reality under the premise of anonymity.. Hmmm bullshit u really feel secure with using some numbers solved by a math problem as ur money source that only exist in the astral and are created by whoever has the strongest computer... No thank you I'll stick to silver bitchez... and as far as bitcoins intrinsic value using energy to "create some digital numbers" ie not intrinsic value its just a waste of electricity.. Intrinsic value is all the uses that gold and silver can be used in like medicine, technology (like making that computer that u use to mine ur bitcoins) and other sectors besides being just a monetary metal that give it its intrinsic value.. Not the fact that u burned 50 kilotons if elctricity to mine 25 shitcoins bitchez...pce sashko)

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 14:48 | 4283448 jonytk
jonytk's picture

let me explain this to you in simple terms

you do not simply hack or shutdown bitcoin!

to hack the system you have to modify the software and apply it to the mining pools,

once a pool has more than 51% of the processing power and this new software it could in theory issue more bitcoins,

however, if this happened, automatically all the other people's software that have not upgraded will refuse this transactions!

a post in bitcointalk will be made stating that this pool is not legit, and people will simply point their bitcoin miners to another legitimate pool that follows the standard bitcoin protocol. this will lower the processing power of the malicious pool and the system will contine working as usual.

As is noted on the bitcoin white paper, a malicious actor controlling more than 50% of the processing power (aka some goverment with unlimited fiat) will find more proffitable to play by the rules than to try to hack the system and undermine their own wealth as if bitcoin value crashes all bitcoin mining machines, currently selling at a 10.000$ pricetag, will be worthless, that's the main reason it wont crash as everytime bitcoin is cheaper to buy than to mine the logical course of action is buy it.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:49 | 4286843 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

"however, if this happened, automatically all the other people's software that have not upgraded will refuse this transactions!"

THEN THEY ARE DESTROYED. All their  btc are instantly invalid and go to zero forever.

Done. They lose.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 18:15 | 4282313 Being Free
Being Free's picture

+ interesting read.

or to put it anothe way ...  He that lieth down with dogs shall rise up with fleas

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 23:42 | 4282703 malikai
malikai's picture

That article is a bunch of tripe and a joke.

Unsubstantiated claims backed by statements such as 'the controllers' and 'ponzi' lay it out flat that the writer has an agenda.

When you read something that makes you 'feel' instead of 'think', you're being fucked. Learn to recognize it.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 01:17 | 4282803 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Nor did I see any references or anything that indicated expertise by the authors.  They may know more than I do (may), but they did not show squat in the article.

Alarmist notions until I see facts.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 10:26 | 4283030 Sashko89
Sashko89's picture

How bout the fact that the council on foreign relations is interested in bitcoin and its development/use?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:47 | 4286840 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

so, you admit the article is right, as you can't / didn't refut a single claim in it.
Got it.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:44 | 4282146 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Reggie's car with it's own roads analogy

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJbcD9tLWk8

 

 

(and yes we all miss LL)

 

 

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 18:13 | 4282301 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

DCRB,

I'd like to throw an idea out to some bitcoin enthusiats on this site including you.

If you would kindly contact me I would like to write you an email. Other interested parties are welcome to contact me as well.

Please put the words "PD Bitcoin Idea (your user name here) in the subject line so I can build the mailing list.

tracer289 at hotmail daht com

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 01:24 | 4282807 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Over in your court now, I look forward to seeing what's on your mind.

 

EDIT:

FWIW, another way to reach me (anyone who wants to contact me) is to find an old article at my blog, leave a comment, and then delete it right away.  Your comment will be seen only for seconds if you do that, but hardly anyone looks at my old articles...  But, even after you delete the Comment, it shows up in my email!

FOFOA taught me that little trick!

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 18:39 | 4283913 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

The thing about the "us" behind bitcoin and the NSA is we have no idea if that "us" really is the NSA.  Even in a best case scenario, the underlying technologies used for bitcoin have almost certainly been either designed or compromised by the NSA. 

If you give just one iota of concern about privacy then you have to recognize that bitcoin is NOT the way to go.  You know there are no transmitters or loggers or what have you in metals or fiat currencies and neither one of those rely on other technologies or even simple electricity to work.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 15:21 | 4282010 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Goldman, eh?  Does this make her an official BitchCoin figure?

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:39 | 4281690 Spigot
Spigot's picture

positioning - positioning - positioning

Once the news hit that Li Ka-Shing was in as investor of BitPay I expected to see almost immediate, multiple announcements from other major investors, etc regarding their participation. I suppose this qualifies, eh?!

IMO the CBs have been attempting to blunt the advance of Bitcoin as a defensive movve to allow their owners time to get positioned in front of the wave. Li is PBOC owner, etc.

Here we have a Goldmanite tossing hat into ring.

This is going to get very very interesting indeed.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 07:40 | 4282956 Philippines
Philippines's picture

Yep, it's coming now. Earlier there was the announcement of another btc payment processor called Gocoin. I expect there to be a lot of competition in the btc payment arena, but I wonder what the differentiations between the companies.

And if Paypal decides to start accepting btc payments, who would be left standing among the processors? 

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:39 | 4281691 blindman
blindman's picture

bitcoin fitches!

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:51 | 4281716 jcaz
jcaz's picture

Yeah, cause you'll love when The Squid gets her tentacles fully into BitCoin....

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:53 | 4281723 CH1
CH1's picture

when The Squid gets her tentacles fully into BitCoin

Something with no "it" ain't easy to grab.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:20 | 4281782 piker
piker's picture

Are you saying there ain't no "it" in bitcoin bitcoin?

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:52 | 4281837 CH1
CH1's picture

There is no center, no server, no office, no boss.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 18:41 | 4283920 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Each bitcoin has a GUID and so does every transaction.  There is the blockchain which is a record of all.  There certainly is an it if you are an intel agent.  Good luck.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:39 | 4286826 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

there are many & they are all easily & equally controlled.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:19 | 4281785 piker
piker's picture

Delete

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:21 | 4281786 piker
piker's picture

WTF - need practice posting from the mobile phone.  Quadruple post =  I'm a dumbass

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:11 | 4281868 piker
piker's picture

Delete double post

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:37 | 4281906 Spigot
Spigot's picture

Here's the trick. Map these [name - company] associations as they will be quite revealing in terms of who is staking what territory. The Frat-Boyz ans Soroi-Sisters are sending out their field agents to take positioning and essentially plant their flag on the organization: [Horewitz/? - Coinbase] [Li/Li - BitPay] [Burns/Goldman - Circle Internet Financial]

Watch for changes in these orgs once these people are involved. Map the follow on placements and who those people represent, etc.

We are watching the development of an entirely new financial infrastructure and the people who are smart (and representing their respective power blocks) are getting into the transaction/volume game in order to skim BTC. They know this is happening with or without them.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:24 | 4282113 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Look, CH1... Nothing against BTC (I'm for it as a tool against fiat), but here is my 'heartburn'...

When the mining difficulty gets so extreme that only large banks of dedicated BTC-mining ASICs are networked into a cloud of super-computers, then you know that mining is now in the hands of a small and ever shrinking pool of miners.  You simply can NOT dance around this fact.  Not if you want to have any credibility, that is.

Given this new reality, the only useful arguments that can be made are based on questions like...

   Q1: "Does having mining concentrated in only a few 'hands', automatically impact mining adversely?"

   Q2: "Does BTC become vulnerable to manipulation or worse (destruction) if it's in a few hands?"

   Q3: "Can BTC Founders change the Rules, to keep its manipulation or destruction from occurring?"

etc, etc.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 19:48 | 4282418 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

good questions, and i've been thinking along the same lines.

and you should also add to that, Q4, what happens when the block chain grows so large as to be unmanagable (it's growing exponentially)?

Q3, i'd say, bitcoin founders can't affect anything, but current bitcoin developers can. and that does worry me a little; while i have no reason to doubt the integrity of any of the bitcoin developers, once bitcoin market cap reaches some large size ($100B?), the incentive will be there for mafia-types (including government and banksters of course) to bribe and threaten the developers to steer bitcoin in their desired direction.

but also keep in mind, bitcoin is not a fixed thing, it is growing and evolving. it is not necessarily the end-all and be-all. it will meet and overcome challenges (or be replaced by something that does deal successfully with those challenges). there are many alt-coins in the works, each one tweaked for a particular focus - whether it be security, anonymity, scalability, etc. this is a great thing for the free market, to have many competing currencies. the ones that meet peoples' needs the best are the ones that will win the most market share, as it should be.

 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:38 | 4286825 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

idiot.
they grab the routes (lines), they grab the routers (cisco), they grab the accounts (make a giant pool of wallets all controlled by Goldman), they use scammed (HFT) dollars to buy BTC at any price they want, up or down (done).
Fail.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:34 | 4281808 813kml
813kml's picture

fonestar:  I have seen your posts pumping BTC ad infinitum but don't understand your irrational exuberance.  Please explain.

From my perspective, BTC isn't much different from the fiat it hopes to replace.  It is a "currency" that really only appeals to the techno-crowd and in that sense is elite.  It takes technical knowledge and specialized hardware to "mine" (I hate that word) and is entirely dependent on electrical and internet infrastructure, which are both the domain of government.  

It is attractive as an anonymous payment system, but BTC is practically useless unless converted to fiat.  BTC is also ripe for speculation and manipulation and has consequently attracted the attention of Wall Street vampires.  The bubble is almost certainly the result of millions of Wall Street bucks thrown at "mining" hardware and quant geeks to operate it.  The market is actively being pumped, I wouldn't want to be holding when it's dumped.

Gov'ts haven't acted to curtail BTC because they know that it will flame out spectacularly without their help.  A hard lesson to the plebes not to overstep their bounds.  Currency is a monopoly of gov't, and that market is cornered.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:58 | 4281844 Unpopular Truth
Unpopular Truth's picture

813 kml:

Bitcoin differs from fiat

- FOR TRANSMISSIONS as follows: faster to transmit; cheaper to transmit; provable transmissions;

- FOR STORE OF WEALTH as follows: on the plus side: cannot be confiscated or diluted. On the minus side: As the general public is still not using it, it still fluctuates widely, so it is risky

- For auditablity: Accounts are public; holders are not. Launderers would have to work much harder to cleanse bitcoin than they would cash

- For usablility: acceptance is increasing; but it is not yet as wide as cash

 

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:31 | 4281903 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Launderers would have to work much harder to cleanse bitcoin than they would cash"

A review of the transactions shows on-line casinos url's over and over and over again.  Nope, no way to wash Btc there. (sarc)

"For usablility: acceptance is increasing; but it is not yet as wide as cash."

And the oft-discussed scalability problem, may/will make it a victim of its own success, and will at the very least require a re-design or augmentation of the system if the system is to become widespread.  search Bitcoin <AND> scalability for weeks' worth of reading.

I fully confess that while I've been aware of Btc for a few years, I had no clue about some of those architectural issues until a few herein mentioned it.  The external reading is worthwhile.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:05 | 4282072 813kml
813kml's picture

Bitcoin was created out of thin air and is backed by faith, hence BTC is fiat.  I actually have less faith in BTC fiat because it's origins are murky.  At least the history of the dollar ponzi can be documented, I truly wouldn't be surprised if Satoshi Nakamoto sits in a cubicle at Golman Sachs or the NSA.

Transmission are not faster, electrons travel at the same speed.  I will give you that transactions are cheaper but processing times fluctuate and are not reversible.  Provability is a wash, payments through the existing banking system are verifiable as well.

Bits and bytes are no more of a store of wealth than pieces of green paper, which can also be stored in bits and bytes.  Confiscation is also possible, digital wallets can be stolen the same as analog wallets.  Or lost.  BTC can also be diluted, at least up to 2 quadrillion units.

Acceptance is increasing but is minute in comparison to the existing banking system.  Some merchants are reluctantly jumping on the BTC bandwagon in order to seem hip and current.  It would be foolish to accept BTC payments because of the extreme fluctuations in value.

Wall Street manipulates markets far more complex than BTC (gold, oil, etc).  To them, bitcoin is amateur hour.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:37 | 4282134 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I was tempted to give you +1 for sheer Sophistry, but resisted.  Allow me to clear up the FUD you're creating:

 

1. Clearly you do not truly understand 'fiat' currencies.  Unlike the paper fiat of CBs, who increase the Currency Supply 'ad fiat' (at will), the supply of BTC is fixed.  At 21,000,000 BTC.  Period.

2. BTC is backed by -- pay attention now -- "The good faith of the decentralized and Free Market".  It is their faith in the currency that prompts them to use it freely as a medium of exchange for goods and services.

As to its alleged "murky origins", well, I'll leave that for others to chew on that Conspiracy Bone.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 17:27 | 4282220 813kml
813kml's picture

Thanks for the snarky reply, please allow me to clarify your clarification:

1.  You need to check your definition of fiat.  BTC doesn't even qualify as fiat currency because it isn't legal tender created by government decree.  But, like the dollar, it is backed by hope and faith.  The dollar has one up on BTC because it is also backed by lead.

2.  It is true that there won't be more than 21M WHOLE bitcoins in existence, but each bitcoin is divisible down to 8 decimal places.  That works out to just over 2 quadrillion BTC "units".  If one were to think of a BTC unit as a penny, one could divide by 100 and compare scarcity to the dollar system.  That works out to 20 trillion "bitcoin dollars", not exactly scarce but more so than a supply of dollars that could (and possibly will) go to infinity.

The murky origins are best left to speculation, but I just can't bring myself to trust a "currency" that could have been created by a geek living in his mother's basement.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 19:52 | 4282424 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

stupidest. comment. ever.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 21:48 | 4282566 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Alrighty then, let's keep it pleasant and professional...

1.a. I'm glad you've "pulled a 180", when you say "BTC doesn't even qualify as fiat currency".  Fact is, it's a "crypto-currency", and not recognized as legal tender or a Financial Instrument.  But then, gold also isn't a "Financial Instrument" either in the eyes of the LEAs and US Customs.  Technically it's a "virtual commodity", used as 'currency', and trying so hard for acceptance

1.b. The Dollar is NOT backed by hope & faith.  It is backed by FORCE.  Ever heard of the joke "Q: What's the difference between the Fed and a counterfeit operation?  A:  Only one of them is backed by the DOD".  Just think of every historic event, where a sovereign power intended to refuse the Dollar, in favor of another currency for oil (Iraq, Lybia, Iran), and how our Petro-dollar US GOV took that.  If I can't convince you of this, then we just have to agree to disagree.

2.  I see your point about how the 21M BTC could map onto $21T, but I doubt that this will happen.  IMO.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 10:35 | 4283040 sleigher
sleigher's picture

2.  I see your point about how the 21M BTC could map onto $21T, but I doubt that this will happen.  IMO.

 

This is already happening except they refer to them as mBTC.  It is understood what BTC is and mBTC.  Or even satoshi for that matter.

This doesn't qualify and dilution of the commodity/currency/whatever...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:35 | 4286819 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

technically YES IT IS, as all central banks recognize MONEY, including GOLD, and all law enforcement recognizes what the central banks recognize as money or not money as it relates to laundering, possession, etc.

The dollar IS BACKED BY HOPE AND FAITH.

It has force as a backup plan B but hope & faith is what gives dollars value where there is no enforcement possible in the world.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:43 | 4282155 Unpopular Truth
Unpopular Truth's picture

813 KML:

English must not be your first language (nor is mine):

"Bitcoin was created out of thin air and is backed by faith, hence BTC is fiat": nope: "Fiat" means declaration. Nobody declared bitcoin as currency in the US.

"Confiscation is not possible": Nope: Confiscation means that someone can take your wealth from you. You can lose your BTC wallet and cash, but that is not confiscation.

You probably have not used Bitcoin:

"...transmission time is the same": Nope. If you pay the 0.001 BTC transmission take 10 minutes. The bank can take days.

"...It would be foolish to accept BTC payments because of the extreme fluctuations in value." Yes, it would , if you were to keep the BTC. Services cash it into your bank.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 17:48 | 4282254 813kml
813kml's picture

You're right, BTC is not fiat because it wasn't created by government decree.  I should have said that he BTC system is similar to fiat currency in that it was created out of thin air and it's value is dependent on faith in that system.  Scarcity is debatable.

Confiscation is possible, anything can be confiscated.  Ask Sheep Marketplace (an apt name).

You are correct that I have not used bitcoin.  Check deposits at a bank can take days to clear, but debits place a hold on an account  immediately.  The actual transaction might take longer to complete, but that is because many banks and retailers still use batch processing systems.  Credit card transactions do happen instanteously.

As far as payments go, how can BTC be considered a stable currency if one should immediately convert it to another currency for fear of losing one's ass on the transaction?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:32 | 4286771 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

MOST CERTAINLY when someone else causes you loss it IS confiscation. a deliberate controlled act that removes assets from you.

That's confiscation. No one else ever ever need be the RECIPIENT of the same assets.  You  need only be deprived OF them.

That is confiscation and I'm very, very familiar with English.

"You probably have not used Bitcoin:

"...transmission time is the same": Nope. If you pay the 0.001 BTC transmission take 10 minutes. The bank can take days."

you certainly have not used bank wire transfers properly.

Mine take a FRACTION of a second.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 19:05 | 4283968 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

- Transmissions:  Traceable by .gov.

- Store of wealth:  can be confiscated.  Completely worthless during power/internet outage. 

- Auditability:  Account XYZ is laundering money.  Let's arrest Mr. Anonymous...  Auditing without any kind of ability to enforce reprecussions such as arrest or confiscation is pointless.  Of course, you already said it is both anonymous and cannot be confiscated as part of your plus side argument.

- Usability:  Can you get a soda from a machine with it?  Pay at the drive thru?  Tip a waiter?  Buy oranges from a homeless guy on a freeway on-ramp?  Donate to a church or other charity that doesn't have the budget to go hi-tech and deal with the wildly fluctuating price? 

Oh, and you can bet the NSA is all up in that.  Hell, anyone who pays attention to anything news related would not be surprised to find out that Bitcoin is a product of the NSA used to increase their ability to track, well, everything. 

Other than those minor things, it sounds wonderful. 

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 12:54 | 4286766 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

NO, bitcoin is much slower as each transaction requires on-grid peer-to-peer verification.
And, bitcoin's destruction of value via volatility is worse than all dilutions and all confiscations combined up to 90% robbery.
It's that bad.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:06 | 4281856 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

@ 813,

The Technocrates love it. The Global Criminal Oligarch Cabal Bankster Intelligence Crime Syndicates wet NWO dream of a cashless Global society with no real wealth.

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 19:06 | 4283969 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

No real wealth for the serfs you mean.  The elites will own everything real.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:39 | 4281912 Spigot
Spigot's picture

813, how smart, capitalize and well connected are you? My guess would be you are not even -3 orders of magnitude the size of Li. You might want to watch what the names are doing, yes? I would think so. They are far more aligned with FoneStar's perspective than yours.

I had to up arrow myself to preserve a bit of self esteem (haha) ...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:16 | 4286761 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

bitcoin is made of pure gall bladder extract of manbearpigs.
That's all I need to know!

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:50 | 4281833 VD
VD's picture

where there is carrion there are vultures...

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:22 | 4281652 Ghostdog
Ghostdog's picture

Who's the dude in the picture?

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:21 | 4281653 dasein211
dasein211's picture

And why wouldn't mal-wart look into bitcoin. I'd rather pay a .5% than 2-3% transaction fee anyday. The writing is on the wall. Dollars are nothing but binary code mostly now anyways. I'm a coin collector and I don't see very many people paying in cash much. Mostly debit/credit and ebt cards. They'd be insane not to circumvent the fees. It's coming.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:37 | 4281681 bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

Hey here’s a question.  Why is the government officially calling bitcoin a money service, like western union, instead of a currency like everyone else?  Under our current legal tenders laws if it were deemed a currency by the government it would automatically be illegal.  So why is bitcoin legal?  Easy answer, because the government has plans for bitcoin, but I don’t think that includes its survival.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:39 | 4281695 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

TPTB either created it, or they are adopting it to take control of it to get as many into digital fiat currency as possible.  Think Google.

You people who are involved with this crap are fools.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:55 | 4281730 CH1
CH1's picture

TPTB either created it, or they are adopting it to take control

This came to you in a vision, did it?

Evidence - it's a good thing.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:00 | 4281739 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

Who is Satoshi Nakamoto?

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:41 | 4281815 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

A person with more brains in his little finger than all you trolls put together.  One who was smart enough to remain anonymous as well.

The Bitcoin Channel

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:04 | 4281859 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

Maybe your big brain can tell me how long it would take DARPA to crack the SHA-256 and ECDSA-256 algos using one of their quantum computers?

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 19:58 | 4282434 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

crash, your line of reasoning comes off as a bit gov-trollish:

"if satoshi doesn't have anything to hide, why doesn't he tell us who he is"?

"if you don't have anything to hide, why does it matter if the fbi/nsa/dea rummage through your house and monitor your every communication"?

frankly, it's none of your damn business, and as far as i'm concerned, anonymity is a right. people are assholes and i respect the guy's right not to be bothered.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:14 | 4286753 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

given the register size needs to be 64 bits & the cost is about a billion per bit (qubit) but the difficulty is so far that you can't ever do this in chunks, it's all or nothing, and the record is 14 qubits, http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/04/05/physicists-entangle-a-record-breaking-14-quantum-bits/ , it's either "tomorrow" (because they're lying about the record) or "many decades to centuries from now" (really difficult) or never (impossible).

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:40 | 4281818 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

real life john galt.  The cypherpunks were working on this for over a decade.  Amongst other cypherpunks: Julian Assange, the guy who invented PGP, the dudes that made bittorrent, etc.  

 

Not exactly govt types 

Sun, 12/29/2013 - 01:36 | 4282825 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

There is no Satoshi Nakamoto. There is only space out there.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 18:24 | 4282322 UselessEater
UselessEater's picture

One source is Dr J Coleman (Committee of 300).

http://coleman300.net/thecomingcashlessslavesociety.aspx

Written in 1995 one of the source docs he quotes from was written for Queen Elizabeth.... its very explicit in the tests used to reduce the possesion and holding of physical cash and the drive towards a single digital "currency".... interesting reading.

Also relevant Patrick Wood and his Technocracy research from source documents. http://www.augustforecast.com/

Some of Arron Russo's comments were interesting and are on youtube.

Just saying there is some interesting anecdotal and source documented research justifying some healthy caution with any form of digital currency & monies including bitcoin.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:05 | 4286734 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

evidence always comes after the event.
We're pre-event.
This is your warning so you don't get financially obliterated.
Ignore it & be doomed.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:40 | 4281702 Spigot
Spigot's picture

Because they have to place it within the existing framework. As PBOC articulated, it isn't "money" because it's not issued by a sovereign. And as I have written here before BTC is both a thing and a system. It's easier to call it a system, then to redefine money (which would be both a problem of global legal definitions as well as opening pandora's box if anything could be defined as money).

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:05 | 4281742 bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

Come on, really? Bitcoin is being used as a currency as a medium of exchange for goods and services.  You answered the question but not to the point I was looking for.  In recent decades any currency that pops up is immediately destroyed by the US government.  Even things like vouchers that start to be used as currency are smashed.  The question is why are they being so nice to bitcoin, when the others were smashed.  The congressional hearings gave bitcoin legitimacy and is the reason for the latest run up.  Investors speculators saw the hearings and buzz and concluded that the government wasn't going to try and destroy it, if those speculators (and retailers) thought that bitcoin was going to feel the wrath of the government they would have never have piled in.  The question is WHY didn't and isn't the government treating bitcoin like every other pop-up currency of the last few decades?  Be honest with your answer and you, like I, will feel as if something very nefarious is going on.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:41 | 4281820 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

Or perhaps there really is nothing they can do to stop it.  Bittorrent much?

The Bitcoin Channel

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:40 | 4281923 bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

Lol, can’t do anything about it huh?  We’ll see.  Though you may feel there is nothing they can do about it that simply is just not true.  They could certainly make it illegal for retailers from accepting it, there is one thing I know about big companies, they don’t screw with the government, that would be one heck of a hit to the bitcoin market. 

Here’s another issue I have, the CIA/Gov has been watching Bitcoin for a while.  What would have stopped them from using their famous computing capability from mining bitcoins early on, or just buying them all the way up.  Since the bitcoin system is anonymous the US government may own 50 70 or 90% of the market right now in thousands of wallets and you would never know, they could wait for a time of low liquidity, crush the market and then outlaw it because of all the pain that that crash causes “the people”.  That would completely destroy bitcoin, but the government would ride in to save the day with their own crypto currency, that really is just another way to steal from the productive among us. 

See this story:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-electronic-currency-could-save-121228399.html

The only reason bitcoin is here is because more viable electronic currency like the liberty dollar were cushed by the government and for some reason they have not reacted to bitcoin in the same way.  You can say they “can’t” but as far as I can tell the government hasn’t even tried.  The question is why? I still have not gotten a good answer.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:52 | 4282171 Hapa
Hapa's picture

read this as a clue to how the CONTROLLERS want Bitcoin to succeed in order to create a new currency regime for their own designs:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/will-digital-currency-replace-the-us-dollar...

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 15:11 | 4281989 scrappy
Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:05 | 4286728 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

bittorrent can also be stopped on grid.
Torrents are detectable without encrypted connections and those can be detected without being sure they are torrents.
Where detection has happened enforcement has been used, sending people to jail & raking them through court to cause bankruptcy.
Nothing in life is risk free.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 13:46 | 4281824 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

it's open source.  if you can't understand the full extent of what that means, well...

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:55 | 4282174 bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

@ Scarlett. So it’s open source, what does that have to do with anything I said.  You write a blurb saying that I don’t understand, with no explanation.  This tells me you are probably just parroting something someone else told you about bitcoin.  I see a lot of this from the bitcoiners, but it doesn’t mean Fu#@ all.  I have had the dot.comer’s tell me I just don’t understand, in-laws flipping houses during the housing boom tell me I don’t understand (went bankrupt by the way and are on the govt dole now) and on and on.  If you want to debate bitcoin fine, but don’t come on here and throw out “open source” and “you can’t understand” and think you made a point. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:59 | 4286716 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I think you can't.
It's dead if grids go down & it's useless if people are tracked by combining snooped IP addresses & controlled CISCO routers with intent to stop btc flowing on command.
Opensource doesn't change any of that.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:27 | 4281894 AE911Truth
AE911Truth's picture

It's somewhat trackable, and it diverts money from going into physical Gold.

 

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:43 | 4281924 Tinky
Tinky's picture

The most likely answer, in my view, is that TPTB understand the advantages of, and are planning to develop their own digital currency. If they were to "smash" Bitcoin as they have other nascent forms of currency, it would make it much more difficult to introduce (in the not too distant future) a very similar product and convince people to accept it.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 14:57 | 4281961 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/10510933/JPMorgan-files-paten...

 

I am actually rooting for BTC because I innovation is important but I don't think it's the end all solution some people think it is.

The whole crypto currency discussion is fun though.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 15:03 | 4281974 Spigot
Spigot's picture

There are international legal definitions of what can be accepted as 'money'. Governments SERVE the people (their owners) who are getting into BTC, not the other way around. Governments have been entirely coopted and are really just enforcement arms of the top power blocks, used to deal with everyone under them. My suggestion to you is to look at how the Senate hearing went as an indication that the most powerful see BTC as something they want to be involved with. Hence the less than hostile reception.

Nefariousity aside, it is what it is. Watch and learn. Get in early, hold, transact out and into real wealth at opportune times. Let their nefarious nastiness help you achieve YOUR GOALS, then walk away.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:22 | 4282111 bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

Thanks for a polite reply. I do have a couple of disagreements. You would have been right if you had said governments are supposed to serve the people but are mistaken if you think the US government serves us. Most of the people in the government serve mainly themselves. Serving oneself in a capitalist society adds to the prosperity of all, but in a government like the one we have it only destroys prosperity. I also found it interesting that you suggested getting into bitcoin only to transact out into real wealth. That tells me you are only in it as a speculation not as a medium of exchange or store of wealth. Since even you, a true believer, are speculating, it only strengthens my belief that it is a bubble. Why not invest directly in undervalued “real wealth” as you call it. I believe real wealth, are gold and silver (a proven store of value), equity or bonds in productive companies, capital equipment, and real estate. This brings me to my next point, government debt derives its value from the ability of the government to tax its productive classes. Since we are in a debt based monetary system this is also what are money is backed by, the ability of our government to tax the production of its population. The infamous Federal Reserve note is not unbacked, as is often touted, it is backed as I said by the governments ability to tax the productive capacity of the United States. That is one heck of a backing in reality. Bitcoin has no such backing. What will cause the to lose value gradually is either of the following or a combination, creating new dollars or a reduction in the production of the United States or possibly the loss of the governments ability to tax that production. Bitcoin only maintains value as a medium of exchange or as a bubble medium (greater fool theory) and there are an unfathomable number of ways that these examples could be ruined. So not only are gold and silver better forms of money then bitcoin but, yes I’m going to say it, the dollar is too!!!!

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 16:38 | 4282141 Spigot
Spigot's picture

There is "We the People" and then there is "those other people" (the 1/100 of 1%) who own the government minions and use governments to their own purposes. Between the two there is a layer I call 'the minions' who serve government and power, and use the same for their own little games, too. At least that is my view.

I don't believe in any man made things ... (grin). I am willing to recognize the ocean in which I sail my little boat, and to make sure I arrive safely on blessed shores.

I am, relatively speaking, a pragmatist at this point in my life. Anything that people touch is bound to reflect what they are inside of themselves. Until people purge out the purfidy within their sordid hearts, we will not have a peacable kingdom, ever, regardless of whatever technical innovations are developed.

Bitcoin is a great invention. You can create with it. You can also destroy with it. It is a tool. What is inside of people will determine how that tool is used. I prefer to use the tool to benefitial ends, and will do so.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 17:00 | 4282182 bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

I respect your opinion but I feel that bitcoin is a weak and corruptible tool and will be destroyed by one of many options.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 18:42 | 4282340 Spigot
Spigot's picture

That is one possibility. Other possibilities are available, too. We shall see how it goes.

In that ocean, in which we sail, there is both friendly bay and angry shoal. A good captain keeps vigil and navigates to bring his charges to safe haven in the midst of storms and tides flowing.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:56 | 4286708 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

no it's not. Goods are priced in fiat & paid in fiat using a conversion via btc.
No one's spending btc directly as money nor pricing their goods in stable btc-only prices. No one.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:43 | 4281692 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

"I'm a coin collector and I don't see very many people paying in cash much."

I see people paying cash all the time.  Whenever possible I pay in CA$H, it's more private...

Your point, however, is correct.  I paid 0.03% (1/100th the cost of a credit card transaction) when I bought my Au from goldsilverbitcoin.com.  

I guess I paid up for that priviledge by paying a high premium.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:46 | 4281709 Grosvenor Pkwy
Grosvenor Pkwy's picture

"I'd rather pay a .5% than 2-3% transaction fee"

The problem with this statement is that Visa provides far more services than Bitcoin does, and to some extent, that is what you pay for. Bitcoin does not have chargeback, does not provide a customer service phone number, and does not do conflict resolution between customer and vendor. At this time, many of the Bitcoin exchanges are not reliable and cannot be trusted, even though the Bitcoin protocol itself may be reasonably reliable.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:59 | 4281733 CH1
CH1's picture

Bitcoin does not have chargeback

From my standpoint, that's a feature, not a bug.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 11:03 | 4285024 shitco.in
shitco.in's picture

Agreed... but to those who want chargebacks...

With off chain transactions (ie: a coinbase user buys something at a merchant using a coinbase POS) charge backs are possible.

 

 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:57 | 4286705 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

from my standpoint it's a failure, not a feature.
I demand charge-back or I demand in-person cash/gold/silver only.

No chargeback = massive grand theft all the time.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:26 | 4281661 orkneylad
orkneylad's picture

I'm looking forward to BTC derivatives coming on-stream......that sh*t make a lot of sense!

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:31 | 4281675 Balvan
Balvan's picture

Bitcoin is going to the Moon, and Quark to the Neptune

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:55 | 4286699 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

LOL
Bitcoin's going to Uranus!
You should goatse the show. It will be epic.

Sat, 12/28/2013 - 12:35 | 4281677 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

Ha this will sit well with bit coiners. We will see how invincible it is to banker shenanigans after the squid gets its tentacles on it. Here come bit coin based derivatives and 100 to 1 leveraged bit coin futures contracts on some kind of digital comex "vault". All bank incurred loses back stopped by the fed of course. Sorry, best of luck to all you big BTC guys (seriously) pure gonna need it.

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