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How The NSA Hacks Your iPhone (Presenting DROPOUT JEEP)

Tyler Durden's picture


Following up on the latest stunning revelations released yesterday by German Spiegel which exposed the spy agency's 50 page catalog of "backdoor penetration techniques", today during a speech given by Jacob Applebaum (@ioerror) at the 30th Chaos Communication Congress, a new bombshell emerged: specifically the complete and detailed description of how the NSA bugs, remotely, your iPhone. The way the NSA accomplishes this is using software known as Dropout Jeep, which it describes as follows: "DROPOUT JEEP is a software implant for the Apple iPhone that utilizes modular mission applications to provide specific SIGINT functionality. This functionality includes the ability to remotely push/pull files from the device. SMS retrieval, contact list retrieval, voicemail, geolocation, hot mic, camera capture, cell tower location, etc. Command, control and data exfiltration can occur over SMS messaging or a GPRS data connection. All communications with the implant will be covert and encrypted."

The flowchart of how the NSA makes your iPhone its iPhone is presented below:

  • NSA ROC operator
  • Load specified module
  • Send data request
  • iPhone accepts request
  • Retrieves required SIGINT data
  • Encrypt and send exfil data
  • Rinse repeat

And visually:


What is perhaps just as disturbing is the following rhetorical sequence from Applebaum:

"Do you think Apple helped them build that? I don't know. I hope Apple will clarify that. Here's the problem: I don't really believe that Apple didn't help them, I can't really prove it but [the NSA] literally claim that anytime they target an iOS device that it will succeed for implantation. Either they have a huge collection of exploits that work against Apple products, meaning that they are hoarding information about critical systems that American companies produce and sabotaging them, or Apple sabotaged it themselves. Not sure which one it is. I'd like to believe that since Apple didn't join the PRISM program until after Steve Jobs died, that maybe it's just that they write shitty software. We know that's true."

Or, Apple's software is hardly "shitty" even if it seems like that to the vast majority of experts (kinda like the Fed's various programs), and in fact it achieves precisely what it is meant to achieve.

Either way, now everyone knows that their iPhone is nothing but a gateway for the NSA to peruse everyone's "private" data at will. Which, incidentally, is not news, and was revealed when we showed how the "NSA Mocks Apple's "Zombie" Customers; Asks "Your Target Is Using A BlackBerry? Now What?"

How ironic would it be if Blackberry, left for dead by virtually everyone, began marketing its products as the only smartphone that does not allow the NSA access to one's data (and did so accordingly). Since pretty much everything else it has tried has failed, we don't see the downside to this hail mary attempt to strike back at Big Brother and maybe make some money, by doing the right thing for once.

We urge readers to watch the full one hour speech by Jacob Applebaum to realize just how massive Big Brother truly is, but those who want to just listen to the section on Apple can do so beginning 44 minutes 30 seconds in the presentation below.


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Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:27 | 4285607 mydogisprettier...
mydogisprettierthanyou's picture

Good thing I have android....


Oh wait....

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:29 | 4285619 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I enjoy all of Jacob's speeches... he is a great voice for the community.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:37 | 4285644 Freddie
Freddie's picture

What community?  The CS-ing Silicon Valley loves obam and the spy state community of Nor Cal?  These people would sell out their mother for stock options in a cool app IPO.  F them and also Hollywood So Cal scum.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:39 | 4285660 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Believe me, I wasn't speaking about the blockhead "metals only" community.  I was speaking of the Bitcoiners and crypto-anarchists.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:40 | 4285681 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Oh, so now PM holders are "blockheads"? Got it fonestar...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:45 | 4285686 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I'm a PM holder, just not one that enjoys revelling in ignorance.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:50 | 4285712 firstdivision
firstdivision's picture

At least with tulips, I could plant them.  With South Sea shares, I could frame them and sell as art.  What does one do with a BitCoin when it is no longer fashionable?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:52 | 4285720 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin is not going out of fashion.  It is centuries ahead of all of today's virtual currencies.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:06 | 4285747 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

SNOWDON Has Revealed The ENTIRE SECRET FACE Of This Planet.
NOTHING Is Sacred, Everything Is EXPOSED To The Powers.
The Thug Down The Street, Your Grandmother, Your Girlfriend...
Remember, Front & Back HI-Res Cameras, Mic, Data, Pics... Everything

Wonder What KLiper Is Watching Today???

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:10 | 4285766 Four chan
Four chan's picture

the doors remain open because the hft algo owners want them to be. 

the faster than light packet attack is hft.


providing liquidity my ass.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:32 | 4285846 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

Man you're boring.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:35 | 4285854 Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

Blackberry networks are no longer secure.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:54 | 4285923 malikai
malikai's picture

Yep, this whole thing is going to be very bad for business.

All american tech companies are going to be suspect now.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:00 | 4285941 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It's interesting that they seem to need to go straight for the hardware isn't it?  I think that speaks well for today's encryption available open source.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:51 | 4286137 malikai
malikai's picture

They sure do have an affinity.

I guess they just want 'total coverage'.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:51 | 4286153 knukles
knukles's picture

Another Conspiracy Theory becomes Conspiracy Fact.

Can you hear me now?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:53 | 4286161 SoundMoney45
Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:13 | 4286233 fuu
fuu's picture

"This functionality includes the ability to remotely push/pull files from the device."

Super handy for:

Planting kiddie porn on a phone.

Planting images of pressure cookers on a phone.

Planting contact lists on a phone.

Planting calender events on a phone.

Planting internet history on a phone.

Planting GPS history on a phone.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:35 | 4286484 Bad Attitude
Bad Attitude's picture

Very good points. I hope criminal defense attorneys are paying attention. Evidence collected from phones or computers cannot be trusted.

Forward (over the cliff).

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:07 | 4286566 fuu
fuu's picture

Parallel construction will fix that loop hole.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:41 | 4286651 Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

Uhm. What was it, again, that killed Steve Jobs at 56?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:22 | 4286772 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:48 | 4286998 spankthebernank
spankthebernank's picture

Jobs is the architect....and he aint dead.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 21:07 | 4287043 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

the more i read his bio,

the more i tend to agree.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:41 | 4286653 MillionDollarBogus_
MillionDollarBogus_'s picture

"...Your target is using a Blackberry.  Now what?..."

Anyone using a Blackberry is not worth spying on. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:32 | 4286802 Poundsand
Poundsand's picture

Can't believe I just up-arrowed MDB...  What has the world come to?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:35 | 4286809 fuu
fuu's picture

Yeah but this one is MillionDollarBogus_, so no worries.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:49 | 4287006 Poundsand
Poundsand's picture

It did seem a little too witty for MDB.  My bad for not looking closer.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:54 | 4287020 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

Anyone with a Blackberry is part of the 1% and therefore not allowed to be spied on.  Duh!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:16 | 4286928 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

This one is. Problem is, the new version of their Bill of Rights software is non compatible 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:52 | 4286530 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Most excellent observation, fuu.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:40 | 4286647 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

bingo... they may as well as named it BLACKBAG or FRAMEJOB or similar, because that's exactly what this is

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:43 | 4286833 fuu
fuu's picture

The other codenames are excellent:


STRAITBIZZARE based software


FREEFLOW project compliant

TURBULANCE architecture


banzai, stickers on iphones!



Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:22 | 4286938 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Great comment

and the best example of how "modern technology" is a blessing and a curse.

A despot's wet dream

to track everywhere you go

everything you say

and when you say something wrong

to correct your "criminal record"

It' a nightmare


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 22:38 | 4287225 Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

Remember that pesky national ID card they kept talking about 2005~2008? Guess we don't need one now lol.


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:57 | 4286175 Ourrulersknowbest
Ourrulersknowbest's picture

"It's interesting that they seem to need to go straight for the hardware isn't it? I think that speaks well for today's encryption available open source."

Why is that interesting?
Do you think software runs on unicorns?
Encryption is the lock you put on a door.
Fine, I'll just FIX the Door for ya.
Wake up dude.your bit coins may or may not be safe.but where is your safe? Cos it sure as fuck ain't at the bottom of a lake

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:48 | 4286672 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Yep it is the how and what they aren't targeting that is telling a bigger story here.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:18 | 4286248 sleigher
sleigher's picture

It is just complete and total own!  That is all...  They have to survive across reboots/rebuilds and access "new" deployments.  Can't do that with just the software.

I just like the sound of the thousands of voices screaming out from the conspiratard websites across the planet for total vindication.  I have read about hacks like these for years and seen many shoot them down about tin foil hats and all that nonsense.  

Just wait til we hear about the built in radios in all modern cpu's that can be activated by satellite.  Then will people get mad?  no...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:34 | 4286319 fuu
fuu's picture

USB cables, monitor cables, power cables, etc can be used to broadcast the data crossing the cable.

Shit you can crack RSA keys remotely using a call phone microphone to detect the high frequency whine of a processor decrypting a known plaintext.


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:20 | 4286267 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

EXCELLENT point fonestar. Real end-to-end encryption is better than the trolls would have you believe. What we need is hardware that's not compromised. Blackberry? (keep the faith on Bitcoin BTW, it really is the way forward)

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:37 | 4286329 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

No, it's not an excellent point.  He completely misses the forest while pointing at the trees.  See my post below for why (hint: cost). 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:36 | 4286322 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Hardware is the logical choice, not any sort of statement about encryption or OSS.  No matter what you load on the device, the hardware is still there.  It would be a logistical nightmare to try to track and catalog all devices when people are changing OSes or other mods.

Think people.  It just costs less and works 100% of the time.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:47 | 4286510 seek
seek's picture

This is why I said months ago that you couldn't do secure messaging on a phone, regardless of what the program provider claimed -- smartphones are compromised out of the box, as is any other device where the service provider (telco or ISP) has unilateral authority to access and upgrade the device. Once you have that ability, you just copy the keys/what's on the display/keystrokes or anything else you want, regardless of what the secure messaging app might be doing.

But the fact that they're doing it this way -- which as I've said before is "cheating" -- does indeed say that this method (compromising the device) is easier than breaking the encryption. Indeed, it may well be that current encryption methods are virtually unbreakable, so they focused on the compromising platforms instead.

I think all these revealations also reinforce the notion that if you're going to have a secure computing environment, it has to be offline and air-gapped.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:56 | 4285934 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Has this guy considered the all-too plausible possibility that the NSA simply fielded the best technical candidate for an engineering job at Apple, who then proceeded to get the job and plant backdoor code into all Apple products?  Repeat for every major technical company out there, Blackberry included.


I am Chumbawamba.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:17 | 4286012 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

BUT BUT BUT, if BB is compromised, that would mean that all the Truly Useful Idiots that have been using BB phones thinking they were secure are compromised too!!!   that would mean the entire System could be manipulated by anyone who has access to that closet full of dirty secrets!!!

Holy Spitzer, Batman!!!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:52 | 4286129 malikai
malikai's picture

Not likely.

It's cheaper and easier to compromise by purchasing exploits from research shops.

$100 says that everyone (US tech companies and other complicit parties) will at least claim to be a victom here.

But the problem comes when collaboration is already assured by their participation in other programs.

Hence, they are all now permanently suspect.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:38 | 4286180 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture


I say anyone who bought a piece of shit iPhone deserves to have their shitty, plastic lives spied on.  You Android users can go fuck yourselves, too, for being hypocritically smug.  And me and my Samsung phone?  Yeah, I know it's telling on me.  I know it's reporting all the nasty deeds I commit, in realtime.  But it's a marriage of convenience.  It doesn't know what horror I have in store for it when I no longer require its services.  It'll be sorry for being the NSA's bitch while stationed next to my penis the entire time.  It's cries for mercy will be music to my ears.  No quarter shall be given.  I shall dissect it, while still powered on, chip by chip, transistor by transistor, diode by diode, until it dumps it's last data load to the NSA and bleats out its last ringtone and then fails catastrophically.  The NSA goons who have been tracking me through this traitor will watch in horror as this all transpires live on their datafeeds.

I am Chumbawamba.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:29 | 4286799 Dugald
Dugald's picture

Have yourself on much Dude?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:47 | 4286838 BobRocket
BobRocket's picture

You have absolutley no fuckin idea.


there is no limit as to how I will thong U


Release the dragons



Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:14 | 4286919 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Thong as a verb, there's something new.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:55 | 4286534 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I use a Chinese phone. Ha-ha!!

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 02:49 | 4287651 Rory_Breaker
Rory_Breaker's picture

I though that the iPhone was a chinese phone

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:45 | 4286990 NickVegas
NickVegas's picture

Has this guy considered the all-too plausible possibility that the NSA simply walks in with a secret court order to modify the code. For all we know, the white hats could be fighting these orders in secret court right now, or as in the case of Joseph Naccio, fighting these orders from behind bars.

Using logical deduction, we can see the steps needed to get from point A to point B. So someone, somewhere is doing a dependency analysis on the steps needed. There is clear and compeling evidence that there is a centralized command and control taking all the steps to install a fascist police state.

If you use 9/11 as a starting point, we can see the steps they have taken so far. Here is my best guess, they want the guns next because at some point, the orchestrated ponzi will blow, and they can see clearly, what that will mean. Every action they have taken since 9/11 is preparation for martial law, and a complete suspension of the Constitution, which seemingly is complete. Snowden's revelations would seem to confuse the ordering of events.

We know they want war in the Middle East, complete control of all communications, the ability to control all transportation, and the acceptance of police state rules by the populace, disarming the public, secret courts, rendition, torture, secret prisons, FEMA camps, total information awareness, drones. Fuck, when you look at the steps taken so far, it's monstrous. Who the fuck is really orchestrating this monstrosity? I think if knew, I would be suicided.

It may be just one of many outcomes for the future, but screw it, keep the love. That confuses them more than anything, when you don't respond to their hate with hate. Keep the love no matter what happens.



Mon, 12/30/2013 - 21:03 | 4287032 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

That confuses them more than anything, when you don't respond to their hate with hate. Keep the love no matter what happens.

ya mon.  in a world where all our dirty little secrets can be uncovered (whether they inflict suffering upon another or NOT), this might be the only tactic that will prove to be successful in the end.

thanks for stickin around. nick.   still remember your first comment here.  twas quite the whopper.   good on you for not letting up since...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 23:05 | 4287286 NickVegas
NickVegas's picture

Thank you Sir. I like the dialog, and some of the material people deliver gives me a belly laugh, in a tough room to work. That keeps me coming back. There is a lot of interesting mysteries in this site, and the people, and the agendas, and the free thinkers. I consider myself a free thinker, a free man, and to me, this is a gathering place. Free men, of wit and intelligence, can provide a clear picture in an opaque environment. That is just one our combined powers, to clear the fog. The pen is mightier than the sword.


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:02 | 4285750 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Weren't you just referring to ignorance a couple posts up?  You own it with the above post.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:04 | 4285956 NIHILIST CIPHER

fonestar            Pedal that crap somewhere else....China and India banned bitcoin, I'd say it's gone out of fashion there.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:40 | 4286102 InjectTheVenom
InjectTheVenom's picture

< crickets chirp chirp >

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:50 | 4286135 fonestar
fonestar's picture

India did not ban Bitcoin dumbass.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:54 | 4286156 malikai
malikai's picture

Neither did China, for that matter.

You've got a lot of fans around here man.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:58 | 4286170 fonestar
fonestar's picture


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:50 | 4286682 Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

Bitcoin is quickly beginning to attract the attention of regulators in a number of countries. After a flat-out ban in Thailand and restrictions on banks in China, now several Indian Bitcoin exchanges have suspended operations following a warning from the Reserve Bank of India concerning digital currencies. Issued December 24th, the statement outlines the risks of a purely electronic wallet, unregulated transactions and value fluctuations. It also contains what could be considered a threat, however, stating that virtual currency users could be breaking money laundering and terrorism financing laws -- one report from the subcontinent suggests the government has carried out the first raid on a Bitcoin exchange, too. Thus, some sites have decided to close for the time-being, leaving notes on their homepages expressing the need for clear legal guidelines before trading can resume. Undoubtedly we'll see more countries take steps towards regulation, especially as the price of currencies rise. Nothing decreases something's worth like outlawing it, after all.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:36 | 4286821 BobRocket
BobRocket's picture

Bitcoins are both an asset (with no intrisic value) and a currency (a medium of exchange).


Laundering and Terrorism laws (and taxation) are interested in first use/final use of the asset. (as a currency is only the meduim)


Laundering is the act of obscuring the transfer of the titles of the originators and recipients of an asset to avoid regulatory infringement


Terrorism is an Act to inspire Terror in a TaxpayerBase such that the TaxExtractors overreact and clampdown on the TaxpayerBase (the funders of terrorism in the eyes of the TaxExtractors) whereby the TaxpayerBase revolt against the TaxExtractors and the Terrorists (remember them?) step into the power vacuum.


Launderers are Tax Avoiders (other than stealing IP (see NSA) it is the only competitive advantage left (see Information Age))


The only way to stay in power (the reason for a politicians existence) is to create an external threat, the more shaky your powerbase, the bigger the threat needs to be.


You have to accept that your politicians represent you, they are in equal measure ignorant/on the take/racist/corrupt/sexist/frightened/stupid/brilliant/philanthropical/self-centered/egotistical/humble ordinary people.




Would I be outraged if some cunt offered me 500K to sell out my fellow North-Siders ? Of course I would.

Would I take the money ? Of course I would , just like I expect every other North-Sider would do like wise.

(actually if some dickhead offered 500k, it obviously ain't his money, can we negotiate)



Tue, 12/31/2013 - 01:41 | 4287493 Drifter
Drifter's picture

It's impossible to stop people from having guns, but it's easy to criminalize use of a gun.

Same with bitcoin, impossible to stop people from having it, easy to criminalize use of it.  

Say what?  They can't tell who used it?

Maybe not now, but I suspect they're figuring out how to trace the transaction back to the person, and when they do, the anonymous nature of bitcoin (its primary attraction) will disappear.

Their logic will be nobody goes to the trouble of using bitcoin for a lawful transaction, so use of bitcoin indicates unlawful transaction.  Guilty till proven innocent.

And please don't hand me those "they can't do that" arguments.   They've proven they can do any damn thing they want. 

If you don't like it, then go have your freikin revolution.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 03:39 | 4287678 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

"he risks of a purely electronic wallet"

So, a purely electronic balance in a bank or brokerage is O.K.?  At least only the person with the private key can spend the bitcoin-so stealing the wallet has no value (and if you made a copy and have the private key you can still spend the bitcoins).  Whereas any bank or government can zero out your "balance" with a keystroke. 

The FBI still hasn't been able to access the coins in the wallet of the "dread pirate roberts", and they never will unless they can force someone to give them the private key.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:08 | 4286205 PTR
PTR's picture

They'll probably set up their own virtual currencies, if they decide to do so.  If they did, and the West had one legislated, up and running, the system could be sabotaged.

At least, that's what I would do.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:11 | 4286573 NickVegas
NickVegas's picture

Who is your paymaster in this endeavor Sir Phonystar? At least come clean, and disclose your holdings, better yet, tell the name, address, paydates and amounts if you are sponsered. That would help us to understand your communications better. Thank you in advance.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:32 | 4285852 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Speaking of PM's, you really have set the gold standard for how not to promote.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:41 | 4285873 fonestar
fonestar's picture

And how do you figure that?  I would say the majority of the "metals only" crew here could serve to dissuade anyone from stacking or adding PMs to their portfolio.  They are rabidly opposed to anything they don't understand and if they can't explain something away they will invent some stupid conspiracy (a la Chris Duane) to supposedly back up their nonsensical biases.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:21 | 4286039 Tinky
Tinky's picture

I'll repeat what I wrote on a recent thread in response to one of your shrill brethren's comments:

"A lot of ZH'ers" remain skeptical of Bitcoin's long-term viability, while fully appreciating the theoretical value of what it is (purportedly) attempting to accomplish.

In other words, very few if any ZH Bitcoin skeptics "hate" it; they simply aren't convinced that it is either trustworthy and/or a wise investment at this still relatively early stage of its development.

If you'd bother to take a step back and review the Bitcoin dialogues on ZH, what you'd find is that, predictably, shrill and/or hyperbolic BC proponents such as fonestar and yourself actually undermine the potential for thoughtful dialogue, and as a result degrade any promotional efforts. The contributor seek, in stark contrast, refrains from launching ignorant attacks on those who disagree with him, while patiently and articulately explaining why he believes BC to be promising, and how it works. That is effective promotion.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:29 | 4286070 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin is almost a five year old protocol at this point.  What constitutes "relatively early stage" for you?  If five years is a short period of time for you, you are going to miss all of the latest and greatest in the tech world where getting in early is all that matters.


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:42 | 4286100 Tinky
Tinky's picture

That's an interesting and revealing comment. By "early stage" I mean that it is not yet mature as a tool, nor has it shown much stability in the market. 

Your last sentence really does underscore how differently you think of BC as opposed to how most goldbugs view their investments. You are apparently seeking a lottery-type "score", and think like a trader, while most goldbugs think in terms of preserving existing wealth during tumultuous times, not making outsized gains over the course of a couple of years.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:45 | 4286122 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Holding physical gold and silver is not an investment, it is insurance for an event that is inevitable but of an unknown date.  I don't view Bitcoin as an investment but as an evolution in currency.  If most goldbugs are going to hold some physical paper currency in their possession they might as well own the strongest currency out there, which is Bitcoin.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:55 | 4286158 JohnnyBriefcase
JohnnyBriefcase's picture

Wow, fucking five years?! That's, like, ancient!!

His comments are certainly revealing regarding his short-term goals and philosophy.
He is also exceptionally good at steering the conversation away from the more serious topic of NSA spying. I'm sure he is well paid.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:03 | 4286186 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes five years is ancient for a protocol.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:43 | 4286658 spinone
spinone's picture

Now I'm confused, is it a protocol or a currency?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 21:32 | 4287092 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Now I'm confused, is it a protocol or a currency?

It's a ponzi hidden behind a protocol.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:46 | 4286119 Ivan K
Ivan K's picture

Really?!  It's early compared to 5000+ years of PM history. Even simpleton people have a visceral gut understanding and associated value placement when they hold an ounce of gold in their hand. For the masses to see value, it must be simple.  I'm a SV tech guy, I get bitcoin in all it's beauty, but if you can't explain it to your parents and get them to understand it and get on board, I am suspect.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:53 | 4286160 fonestar
fonestar's picture

A simpleton would have to admit that funding his enemies via monthly payments is a frigging stupid thing.  Tell me this, if most gold and silverbugs are suspicious of Bitcoin, why have they not gotten behind local alternative currencies?  Why are they still passively accepting dollars for silver & gold?  It's because they're cowards... they don't want to stand up, grow some f*cking balls, that's why.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:42 | 4286332 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

"I'm just a simple caveman.  Your world frightens and confuses me."  -- Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:14 | 4286446 DollarMenu
DollarMenu's picture

I thought true goldbugs only went one way, dollars for PM's.

Traders and nickel chasers use paper gold/silver for their transactions, but the true PM bugs hold their PMs.

I could care less about this side/diverted topic of bitcoin, go back to the top - NSA spying.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 21:45 | 4287118 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

because they're cowards... they don't want to stand up, grow some f*cking balls, that's why.

You argue like a used car salesman.  First you boast you have the best product, then you resort to saying the buyer is stupid to reject your sale.  Then, like a used car salesman, you keep going long after the prospect has left, finally following behind shouting epithets.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 01:08 | 4287532 Drifter
Drifter's picture

"where getting in early is all that matters."

That means bitcoin is a fad, a flash in the pan, a tulip mania, a tech stock bubble, etc, certainly not a stable long term currency.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:10 | 4286574 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Oh, I see in the your emotions about PMs, that you are is a big loser, through the fall Bitcoin!
Do not despair, you are not alone. In the world there is always a lot of people who are victims of swindlers like E-gold, Bitcoin, Fatkoin, Futkoin and other Fuck-coins Ponzi schemes.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:33 | 4286805 TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

FONESTAR...... Why must u revel in convincing everyone that bitcoin is the second coming of christ?...Were all watching it.. but some of us arent interested in gambling on a technology that has not endured the test of time..... There is no one central place for someone to go and learn every detail of how it works/ how to secure a wallet/ what is cold storage/ multiple forms of authentication/ how they keys work/ how to decipher the block chain.... btc is fricken nerd money right now...Only a small group of people really know the ins and outs.. everybody else is in on blind faith and hopium...... Being skeptical is not stoopid.. its WISE!!..

BTW full disclosure  I am currently mining litecoin....purely speculative play.. but ill be damned if Ill exchange fiat for crypto... If it LTC makes a nice move.. guess what? ill cash it in for some yellow and white...



Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:46 | 4285692 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Nice News For ALL The I-Dummies...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:51 | 4285718 Alfred
Alfred's picture

Flip Phone!! - bitches...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:53 | 4285919 sleigher
Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:21 | 4286597 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Q: Will Zfone's protocol pass FIPS-140 validation?

A: ZRTP-based products must receive FIPS-140 validation in order to be sold to US government customers, or to the governments of some other countries. To facilitate this, ZRTP uses only FIPS-approved algorithms in all relevant categories. To meet the FIPS-140 validation requirements set by NIST FIPS PUB 140-2 Annex A and NIST FIPS PUB 140-2 Annex D, ZRTP is compliant with:

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:42 | 4286655 BobRocket
BobRocket's picture

NSA Suite B,

licensed from Certicom,

same people securing your smart home energy meter that can

'reach inside the consumer’s home through wireless sensor networks to display pricing information information, collect hourly or more frequent usage information, and potentially to manage home appliances.'


Hey, don't worry, Certicom can secure your Blackberry as well :)




Tue, 12/31/2013 - 06:44 | 4287761 Tapeworm
Tapeworm's picture

I bought a heavily discounted BBRY Z-10 because of the reputed security of the device even though I have a boring existence that no one would care to examine.

 Assuming that the BB-10 OS is secure, that might explain why the CNBS and the rest slagged the thing immediately and relentlessly.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:11 | 4285983 NIHILIST CIPHER

Alfred      Bingo! Me loves me flip phone, antique peice of shit that it is. Only works half of the time but NSA don't need to be up in my bidness. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 16:23 | 4286271 viahj
viahj's picture

really?  if you use it to make phone calls and it's pinging a cell tower, they are all up in yo bidness

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:15 | 4286451 fuu
fuu's picture

Shhhhh, let them sleep.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:54 | 4286527 NIHILIST CIPHER

viahj       The piece if shit rarely makes it through a complete call, I use carrier pigeon for the important messages.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:57 | 4285737 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

I've always assumed my cell phone was an open book to government agencies just like I've always assumed that Social Security won't be there for me when I retire.

The only thing left in both cases is the proof.

In the cell phone/computer tracking stuff... we'll know soon enough.  It's heading to the Supreme Court where Roberts will likely be the deciding vote, as he was on Obamacare.  Then we won't have to argue whether it's Constitutional or not.  It will be deemed Constitutional, with few if any limits, and that will be the end of the discussion.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:07 | 4285761 drunkenlout
drunkenlout's picture

John Roberts must have the world's nastiest selfies.  He went the extra mile in inventing, presenting, and ruling in favor of the ACA case didn't make, after finding it was not Constitutional under the Commerce clause.  

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:11 | 4285772 pods
pods's picture

He was probably the star in a couple of well documented snuff films with missing children.


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:15 | 4285786 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

The rumor is that he cut a few legal niceties when adopting his children.

Thats quite a Hoover to hang over someones head.

He should do the honorable thing , but he won't.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:41 | 4285866 MarsInScorpio
MarsInScorpio's picture



The "honorable" thing for Roberts to do is to blow his brains out.


You're right - he won't do the honorable thing.


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:43 | 4286118 InjectTheVenom
InjectTheVenom's picture

these "Honorable" judges wouldn't even know HONOR if it came up & kicked 'em in the head

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:57 | 4285916 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

that's not the only rumor...not that i have anything wrong with that one ;~)  that begs a larger and more interesting question tho i/m/h/o :

if members of the Judiciary are being compromised by data compiled by the very Agency they are rendering a decision upon, through methods of which they are determining legality, does not the legal code demand that they recuse themselves from the case, due to conflict of interest?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 22:02 | 4287161 mt paul
mt paul's picture

not in a fiat legal system...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:47 | 4285703 Skateboarder
Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:57 | 4285719 LetsGetPhysical
LetsGetPhysical's picture

NO mobile device is safe. Anybody thinking otherwise is a moron, delusional or both. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:07 | 4285767 Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

I remember when the AAPL fanboys used to crow about how Apple stuff was more secure because, well,  Apple........Apple management has deliberately fucked up the security angle, so the shine is forever off.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:20 | 4286033 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Hell, I installed SMSCON on my Nokia N900's years ago just so that I would have that same functionality. I guess I could have just bought crapple and avoided the bleeding edge headaches of mobile linux, but then again, unless the NSA starts offering the remote access to people who like to decorate lamp posts with NSA employees, then their product isn't really really offering me as much.

But this shit (and the technology behind it) has been around for quite a while.

More problematic is the ongoing complicity required of telecom providers (worldwide???) who would have to provide the expertise and software so the NSA thievery doesn't show up on one's monthly phone bill (and many European cell phone bills aren't like the skimpy US summaries- they're book length transaction record printouts that provide excruciating detail...

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 05:06 | 4287724 TheLoveArtist
TheLoveArtist's picture

Darn it they are using the drones to shoot down my carrier pigeon, not one has returned in weeks.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 21:48 | 4287138 astroloungers
astroloungers's picture

Prey for EMP

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:32 | 4285622 RacerX
RacerX's picture

yes we are so much safer with the GOOG


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:10 | 4285775 Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

...well it says right on my phone, Android by GO-OGLE....

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:44 | 4285684 PT
PT's picture

Can someone release the source code so we can all have a look?

Something tells me I'll never be able to trust a computer unless I build the damn thing myself, after building the computer - manufacturing - machine myself. 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:52 | 4285722 pods
pods's picture

It really has become a Matrix.  

You have people living their lives in these electronic boxes, and they are a great way to control you.  

You worry about malware, viruses, hackers and the like.  You pay money to buy anti-virus software to make your system as secure as you can.

And after all that time, you realize that there was an architect of the whole world, who has bugged your system from the chip or BIOS level, making all your steps meaningless.

No matter what you do, they can insert something on your system at will.  

Talk about control.  

How many times have you seen a news story of some pervert with kiddie porn on his computer and thought, I wonder if he was set up?

Doesn't happen. Same thing with DNA. They can create DNA fragments in a lab and set up you up, provided they have a sample of yours.

I am really at the point where I am against any and all organized force.  (that means governments)


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 18:16 | 4286011 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I always thought their ability to implant information would give us quite a bit od plausible deniability. But then I remembered you are guilty until proven innocent and if the State has a hard-on for you, you are shit out of luck and it's either off to prison or off to an early grave..........

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:38 | 4286094 walküre
walküre's picture

pods, more and more plebs like us are becoming aware

we will resist them soon and they won't know what hit them

** you're either with us or against us **

governments, banks, churches, corporations are against us and against our freedoms

why do you think the last time the plebs revolted across the board it was such a carnage? can't happen any other way.

peaceful revolution won't change my kid's future

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 05:03 | 4287723 TheLoveArtist
TheLoveArtist's picture

Pods that is some scary shit, especially the DNA and kiddie porn.  With that stuff they can turn anyone in the world.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 15:11 | 4289098 PT
PT's picture

I have always been amazed at the level of trust given to computers.  It is absolutely astonishing.

99% of the population have no idea of what "updates" are really going onto their computers, have no way of checking, and have no way of knowing what our computers are doing at any time.  The "Task Manager" doesn't necessarily have to tell the truth.  Just because your downloads are slow doesn't mean the network is full - it could easily be some background transmission / reception slowing your computer, and if you want to get really paranoid, there could easily be a parallel modem / processor sitting on your computer doing all this stuff without the rest of the computer "knowing" what is happening.  99.9 percent of the population have no idea / no way of checking, and 99% of them are too stupid to care.

Given the current set up of the computer and internet industries, given that the most basic knowledge is still well hidden, I would say that no-one should be able to be held responsible for what is on their computer.  There is simply no way to prove the computer user is responsible for what is on their computer.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:53 | 4285727 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Buy a few thousand D Flip-Flops, 2-10 input NAND/NOR gates, some LEDs, and a few dozen breadboards. I'll whip up whatever architecture you want. Of course your new computer won't play YouTube videos, but it will crunch numbers without calling home.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:31 | 4286480 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

Wirewrapping is fun, but how about some FPGA's and EEPROMS instead?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 20:22 | 4286935 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

The future of computing is in FPGAs. It'll be our way of producing soft CPUs that can't be hacked. I might as well lead the way.

Can we trust Xilinix and Altera's chips to not call home?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:30 | 4286478 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

The real vulnerability in any phone is the part that actually handles the radios talking to the 2G/3G/4G networks. This exists as a "Baseband OS" that the other operating systems on smartphones run on top of. Its full of fun features like accepting binaries blindly, and peering with a radio tower by command.

This is why that shit works. I've always assumed that anything mobile was compromised, and acted accordingly. When I don't want to leave a breadcrumb trail of where I've been, I leave it switched off in a metal drawer.

Most Apple/Droid users have no idea, and it matters little to them since they're too busy instagramming and facebooking their trite little lives to everyone.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 02:45 | 4287647 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

I only have a $5 Taliban Toss-Away bought from some grocery store and buy minutes as needed. I almost went with the dial edition, but I wanted to feel modern.

So far this year my phone has cost about $60 total.  And most of the time is my wife using mine instead of hers.

My cellphone is the deadliest weapon we have against the NSA...the boredom has got to at least forced a dozen or so to suicide.

I'm happy with that.

Thank me later.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 05:01 | 4287720 TheLoveArtist
TheLoveArtist's picture

the ability to remotely push/pull files from the device.....

SWAT is here and they want to know why I have naked photos of Yellen on my computer and iphone, I told them someone must of uploaded them without me knowing it....oy vey Im screwed

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:29 | 4285610 Pooper Popper
Pooper Popper's picture

hey nsa, you dont have to bug my phone to hear this....



Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:28 | 4285617 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

Carl Ichann better hurry the fuck up an buy the NSA...............

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:29 | 4285621 ConManipulation
ConManipulation's picture


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:35 | 4285649 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

That's a lot of damn words just to say "puppets."

Find their paymasters, then you might be onto something.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:40 | 4285678 ConManipulation
ConManipulation's picture

You are spot on, my good man! 

I thought that the Banksters covered that, there a higher group of masters?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:51 | 4285707 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Well, they don't work at a bank.

Even Jamie Dimon is merely a glorified water-boy.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:12 | 4286004 ConManipulation
ConManipulation's picture

True, true...I actually meant it as "the banking families"...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 21:38 | 4287107 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



Royal Families.


yes, the banking clans are owned too.



Mon, 12/30/2013 - 17:32 | 4286482 Vooter
Vooter's picture

Why bother? Just round up everyone...

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 01:32 | 4287580 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

Hmmmm, "What would Pol Pot do?"

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:44 | 4285661 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"Clearly you haven't had your morning tranquilizers yet. And I see your perscriptions need to be refilled. Let me do that for you while you take your morning meds." - NSA

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:46 | 4285683 Pee Wee
Pee Wee's picture

Words will never hurt them, but blowing their neo-con Fascist fucking faces off in front of their friends and family will.

Just sayin.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:17 | 4285796 Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

shit, do I dare even whisper, starve leviathan?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 15:11 | 4285992 Pee Wee
Pee Wee's picture

True, in fact I like your method more, non-violence is always the best! 

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 21:35 | 4287094 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



may we be so blessed.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 14:15 | 4285787 SgtSchultz
SgtSchultz's picture

Don't sugarcoat it.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:32 | 4285624 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

Good thing I have a new Blackberry Z30.  If you are a "smart" phone user you really should give it a try.

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:36 | 4285650 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Can one avoid back door penetration using a blackberry?

What should someone who enjoys back door penetration do if they don't want the NSA spying on them?

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:39 | 4285676 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

Just shove all your Crocs up your ass and leave em there to prevent any further probing by the NSA and aliens!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:43 | 4285691 Pooper Popper
Pooper Popper's picture

and if your a lady with a nice Backyard,,,give me a call

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:36 | 4285654 pods
pods's picture

I have the Z10, but am under no delusion that my communications are secure.

Great phone, but not secure.  The NSA makes sure of that.


Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:49 | 4285701 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"That's strike two for you pods. One more and we're really gonna get mad at you." - Your friendly local NSA station chief

<Don't call us, we already know what you're thinking, doing and saying. Oops, that's strike three.>

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:30 | 4285625 stinkhammer
stinkhammer's picture

what a bunch of pathetic losers

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:41 | 4285672 Vooter
Vooter's picture

That's exactly what it comes down to: This is the only thing that these fucking monkeys could think of to do with their lives. Just like cops and soldiers. Mediocre half-wits sucking on the government teat...

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 13:32 | 4285628 swedish etrade baby
swedish etrade baby's picture

I dont believe it. I trust Apple!

Mon, 12/30/2013 - 19:49 | 4286845 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Please stop I'm about to have another laugh attack!

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