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Fortess Investment Is Forming A Bitcoin Fund

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Two months after the CIO of Fortress Investment Group recommended "putting a little money in Bitcoin," the massive fund is preparing to luanch its own Bitcoin Fund (likely considerably larger than the SecondMarket offering). As Fortune reports, details remain scarce, although there are some rumors that info .

 

The breadcrumb trail.. (Via Fortune),

Fortress earlier this year acquired Koru Ventures, a provider of patent-backed loans to tech companies, in order to launch an IP finance group. Among Koru's principals (and new Fortress employees) was Steven Waterhouse, the former chief technology officer of RPX Corp. (RPXC) whose LinkedIn profile yesterday said that he had just become a partner on an unnamed Bitcoin fund. After I sent Waterhouse an email requesting more info – and also placing a call with Fortress – the Bitcoin mention disappeared from his LinkedIn page (replaced only with "TBD").

 

My understanding, however, is that the Fortress effort will be something like an unlisted currency ETF (similar to Bitcoin Investment Trust), with Fortress also perhaps raising a separate vehicle to back Bitcoin-related startups. And there likely is some relationship to a new Bitcoin-related fund raised by Pantera Capital, a San Francisco-based hedge fund whose clients are known to include several Fortress executives.

 

Pantera founder Dan Morehead declined to discuss his Bitcoin efforts or relationship to Fortress – including if his effort and the Fortress fund were one in the same – but an SEC filing indicates that he already has raised around $150 million for Bitcoin vehicle, and Pantera recently participated in a VC round for crypto-currency payment network Ripple Labs. Moreover, calls to Pantera's main number are now met with a voicemail that only identifies the firm as "Pantera Bitcoin."

The Bitcoin New Year's Eve Bash is at Broad Street tonight

 

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Tue, 12/31/2013 - 15:52 | 4289238 fonestar
fonestar's picture

BITCOIN!!!

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:07 | 4289270 Debtonation
Debtonation's picture

<---I own bitcoins

<---I don't own bitcoins

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:12 | 4289283 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

My wealth on a USB stick!!  I foresee no problems there!!!

In all seriousness though, how can this be good for the "free" currency?  How is controlling it via paper funds going to add to its anti-establishment mantra?

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:15 | 4289297 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin is not stored on a USB stick, it is stored on the blockchain.  Any attempt to control Bitcoin's price via an ETF, etc will end in disaster for the ETF and will not affect Bitcoin at all.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:22 | 4289307 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

So you store your wealth on a remote chain?  Even better.....

I was being sarcastic.

Bitcoin, or any other currency, will not be truly free until the USD collapses.  This is Bitcoin being usurped for control purposes via paper markets.  This is not libertarian freedom.

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:01 | 4289428 Transformer
Transformer's picture

Or could it be an attempt by TPTB to sidetrack the money that would be going in to Bitcoins by essentially creating an ETF, like GLD and SLV did.  It prevents people from actually investing in Bitcoin.  This is what people don't get about ETF's.  Their goal is to prevent investment in the major vehicle.  Of course they will impact the Bitcoin price, simply because people will invest in the ETF, instead of Bitcoin.  Gold and silver would be many times their price right now if it were not for the ETF's sidetracking all the money that would have been invested.

And I know you can say, well, it does get invested.  The ETF has to buy gold, or silver, or in this case, Bitcoin.  Maybe that's true, eventually.  Certainly the ETF doesn't have to buy in right now.  Read the prospectus.  It also puts control of this huge investment in the hands of our nice bankers, who you can trust implicityly, of course.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:02 | 4289455 Four chan
Four chan's picture

hypothecated derivatives on bitcoin, well if you live long enough i guess you see everything.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 06:11 | 4290520 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

So, the senior management of Fortress want to make some money for themselves eh. First buy it personally then ramp it through the fund, and then sell personally before crashing it with the fund sales.

Everyone else repeat after me... "Sucker"...

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 07:11 | 4290556 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

That is the first thought I had too. How long before they slam down the bitcoin market to break it like they did gold this year?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:48 | 4289464 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Bitcoins are hases that can be stored...on paper, usb stick, websites, cds, or a computer.

The blockchain is a publicly available accounting ledger, bitcoins are not stored on the blockchain.

Every time a bitcoin comes into existence, or sent (a transaction), miners verify it using the blockchain. This is why bitcoins can't be double spent or counterfeited. Imagine every dollar you spent being verfied back to it's point of origin before you can spend it...that is bitcoin.

It is your responsibility to store it safely (much like gold). If you leave gold bullion on the front seat of an unlocked car for 1 week in NYC and it get's stolen then nothing is wrong with gold. It's the owner that's fucked up.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 22:04 | 4290112 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

So, you believe your private key (a 256-bit number) is a bitcoin?  Nein, any given 256-bit number is value-less without the blockchain.  But both are needed to spend a bitcoin.

Looking into the future with regards to possible gov't attempts to outlaw bitcoin I believe it is better if the bitcoin exists in the blockchain as opposed to in the private key.  

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:19 | 4289497 Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

I suppose some people could hand-wring over this. Not much point in libertarian freedom if we try to prevent people from trying to create side stream profits by bilking the naive. That's what funds are for.

Bitcoin is free to continue to be mined or to be exchanged whether or not choice the fiat du jour collapses.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:19 | 4289313 Debtonation
Debtonation's picture

Very true.  The block chain would force the ETF to reveal its allocated assets, vice gold and silver ETFs are based on nothing but faith.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:27 | 4289332 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

And you think the average person, who takes advice from a 30-something broker, won't invest in a Bitcoin ETF?  This is way more plausbile than gold or silver ETF's, because Bitcoin is in the cloud to begin with, unlike gold and silver.

A Bitcoin ETF will be wildly successful.  You will be controlled and your anti-gov't currency will be attacked until the USD collapses - period.  It has to be that way or the US govvy may as well close up shop now.

We are living in the middle of a financial war - just look at FED interventions.  Bitcoin may survive, but will be controlled until the end.

I guess the question at that point is what do you want to trust?

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:48 | 4289401 malikai
malikai's picture

Care to explain how one would 'control' bitcoin?

Please be specific.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 08:14 | 4290574 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Oh, it's very simple! For complete control over Bitcoin, you need only a few needles and creators of Bitcoin.
Need to shove needles under fingernails people, who created Bitcoin.
After that, you will have full access to the Bitcoin and any manipulations.
Or do you think that the intelligence community did not know the names of each of the founders of Bitcoin? LOL

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 10:52 | 4290665 malikai
malikai's picture

Can't tell if drunk, troll, or stupid.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 13:17 | 4290921 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I knew in advance that you will not be able to find any arguments to argue me on the merits.
For this reason, the objections in the style of "drunk, troll, or stupid." - this is the most maximum that you can do in the quality of your logical arguments.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 15:35 | 4291223 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

"I knew in advance that you will not be able to find any arguments to argue me on the merits."

This is true. I also don't listen to what my goat has to say about Calculus. I just can't find anything the goat says worthy of arguing against.  +1 for knowing thy goat self

 

The code is open source. Satoshi did not build any master key into the code.

The blockchain is distributed. A Malicious actor would have to find every bitcoin user and stick pins into ALL of them.

Finally any change in the bitcoin code can only occur after a majority of miners implement the code change. This can be like herding cats and again, a malicious actor would have to stick pins into the fingers of at least a majority of miners.

Thu, 01/02/2014 - 17:25 | 4294384 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

NO, the government need only BE the majority of miners.
That's merely a cost of fabricating enough optical VLSI (and FPGA) chips & setting up enough servers using that supply of money we know is printed by their buddies the Fed.
Hm.
Unlimited money.
Higher grade computing power.
you lose.

Doesn't matter the other guy's argument was a fail, yours is also a Fail. He doesn't have a penalty for being wrong since he's not a bag-holder of bitcoin.

Thu, 01/02/2014 - 17:22 | 4294344 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

bitcoin is a farce but your comment didn't make any sense either.
The code is open source. There's nothing left to reveal, it's all open.
The network itself is the vulnerability.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:03 | 4289450 ich1baN
ich1baN's picture

I love the way this guy thinks..... I mean think about it people. Gold for those that do any research is controlled primarily by JPM and China....

I've made this case almost 2 years ago now. The US government and China have colluded to keep gold prices lower than their real price because China is buying and the US can't have a high gold price, or else it could spook the bond market. 

The same reasons could be applied to BTC...... Think about it people. THE US GOVERNMENT IS THE #1 holder of Bitcoin with 144,000 coins.

The US GOVERNMENT IS the #1 holder of Gold Reserves..... that is how they change the price on a whim, they LEASE IT OUT!!!!!

They will use these ETF's to lease Bitcoins out, just like China used the GLD fund to drop the Gold price $400 so they could push a huge supply onto the market and then buy more Gold at lower prices.....

 

This isn't rocket scientist people. This guy is right, they will manipulate Gold/silver/bitcoin until the dollar bubble and the global debt bubble in countries like China and UK pop.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:36 | 4289511 One And Only
One And Only's picture

A lot of disinformation in your post. I'll address one.

"The same reasons could be applied to BTC...... Think about it people. THE US GOVERNMENT IS THE #1 holder of Bitcoin with 144,000 coins."

Satoshi has roughly 1 million bitcoins according to Sergio Lerner, an authority on bitcoin and cryptography.

http://bitslog.wordpress.com/2013/04/17/the-well-deserved-fortune-of-sat...

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 18:40 | 4289681 ich1baN
ich1baN's picture

Okay, so the btc holders are out in droves today.

But, don't you think you are spouting disinformation yourself? 

How do you know this mythic satoshi that no one even knows holds 1 million bitcoins?

Your author Sergi himself says he doesn't know if it is Satoshi for sure, because you are afterall not supposed to know who holds bitcoin b/c it is anonymous.

"One of the consequences of these graph is that if the real name of the sender of a single transaction belonging to the entity is identified, then Satoshi mystery identity will be revealed"

I'm not saying you are wrong, but we all know that this mythic satoshi has never sold, and one who doesn't sell doesn't effect the price. 

The price of bitcoin has obviously experienced wild volatility, more than any other asset, so it would be in the interest of the government to keep it lower and ruin confidence in it.

This could mean that BTC goes back to 1300 a coin and then gets smashed to 100 a coin. They do it in gold with the GLD ETF already to help china out and to help investors' confidence in the Dow and in the bond market.

I wasn't intentionally putting disinformation out, but it is obvious that the US Gov has an interest in keeping the price low so people aren't spooked out of the dollar, just as they are manipulating gold....... Do people think this sort of manipulation is new? What makes BTC invulnerable to price maniuplation if people can freely buy and sell? 

They manipulated a market that no one thought possible, LIBOR. 

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 19:24 | 4289780 One And Only
One And Only's picture

"Your author Sergi himself says he doesn't know if it is Satoshi for sure, because you are afterall not supposed to know who holds bitcoin b/c it is anonymous."

Satoshi created the bitcoin protocol, this is known. The bitcoins being referenced in the article originated from the genesis block (the first block of bitcoin mined) so there is an assumption to be made - Satoshi mined the first block of bitcoins and the first million bitcoins related to that block using patterns identified in the paper by Sergei.

In my opinion there is no perfect currency as everything created by man is inherently flawed. However, bitcoin has the potential to be an alternative, only the future will tell. I like things that are rooted in some semblance of common sense: gold/silver, bitcoin, even Swiss Francs. One thing is certain is that alternatives are needed to what we have now.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 02:37 | 4290438 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

So let me get this straight. This "Satoshi" guy comes up with 1 million strings of numbers and convinces other people to bid them up to be worth $800 each? The man is a fucking genius.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 13:44 | 4290983 silvermail
silvermail's picture

The man who trusts his money to a stranger on the street, is idiot.
But the man who trusts his money to a virtual stranger on the internet, is an idiot in the square.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:23 | 4289513 Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

True, the government has more wealth, more gold, more silver, more land, more guns and ammo and more Bitcoin. Game over We should just give up.

You can find me at the Gulch.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:01 | 4289452 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

 

 

nope-1004, at risk of oversimplifying:

1) Trust in God

2) Trust in gold

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 20:44 | 4289962 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

fonestar

Bitcoin is not stored on a USB stick, it is stored on the blockchain.  Any attempt to control Bitcoin's price via an ETF, etc will end in disaster for the ETF and will not affect Bitcoin at all.

It doesn't matter where bitcoin is stored.  What matters is that it isn't backed by anything or anyone.  Even fiat currency is backed by the ability of government to tax the people.

What happens to the valuation of bitcoin when the bitcoin ETF sells more bitcoins than exists?  Do you think that won't effect the value?  Is there anything to stop naked short selling of bitcoin derivatives through exchanges?  Once bitcoin is levered up with derivatives, the valuation will change at the will of the big players.   Do you think the blockchain will stop a derivatives market from being created? 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 21:46 | 4290080 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

All of the current bitcoin exchanges are fully allocated both on the Bitcoin side and on the fiat side. I don't see why it should or would change in the future. Taking delivery of a recently purchased Bitcoin is trivial, unlike gold. If an exchange is even suspected of selling a hypothetical bitcoin I believe it would find itself in a liquidity crisis pronto. 

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:01 | 4290311 digi
digi's picture

Counterparty risk that exists in the btc derivative market and not in the actual btc market will stop it from flourishing. Unlike fiat based systems where counterparty risk is already inherently present everywhere.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:29 | 4289338 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Yeah, no worries, your wealth in the Matrix on public servers.

Don't worry, it's a "crypt-o-currency", a pseudonym for fiat money, which is a pseudonym for Gold.

Hermes sends his regards - though he's not sure he can keep Zeus out of the Bitcoin blockchain.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:35 | 4289535 palmdetroit
palmdetroit's picture

You can memorize your private key and then wherever you are claim your BTC! let's face it... rocks are heavy.

 

speaking of stones 65k float http://phstones.com/mobile.php

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:06 | 4289275 jcaz
jcaz's picture

Dumbass- if you knew ANYTHING about finance, you'd realize that this ISN'T good for BitCoin-  but hey, go ahead and roll your three coins into it for "diversification"....

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:13 | 4289289 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

This is about as good for bitcoin as GLD and SLV are for precious metals. It just gives them a vehicle to lure the suckers in and then manipulate the shit out of the market.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:21 | 4289310 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Wrong.  Any news for Bitcoin is good news for Bitcoin.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:26 | 4289335 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

fonestar    Any news for Bitcoin is good news for Bitcoin.

 

That sounds more like a cry for help.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:35 | 4289372 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Lohan's Mom got busted for DUI this year; must mean Lindsay is going to land a big movie role, eh?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:43 | 4289397 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

California is going to lower BAC to 0.05 for DUI by 2015. It will also be requiring ignition interlock devices for all first offenders. I believe that's already here for three counties in experiment and to be statewide in 2015.

Basically, don't have a heavy ale on an empty stomach and drive, or you might go to jail, even if you're stone cold sober (in perception).

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:13 | 4289477 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Big money maker for the municipalities; it will be BAC 0.01 before long and they'll be making $10K/pop off people who took NyQuil.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:22 | 4289504 One And Only
One And Only's picture

....or chew gum, or brush their teeth, or use mouth wash.

.05 is 2 beers for a 200lbs man.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 19:39 | 4289820 TheHound73
Tue, 12/31/2013 - 21:14 | 4290021 813kml
813kml's picture

Your wisdom will fall on deaf ears, bitcoin is gold for generation XBox.  Wall Street will pump and dump these nerds so bad that they'll feel like they almost had a girlfriend.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:20 | 4289305 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Hey idiot, this will have ZERO effect on Bitcoin.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 18:18 | 4289649 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

Your mom just called me and asked me to come over and kick you out of the basement, Kevin. Make it easy on me and take your computer and leave now.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 20:40 | 4289952 Martel
Martel's picture

Dumbass- if you knew ANYTHING about finance, you'd realize that this ISN'T good for BitCoin

If you knew ANYTHING about bitcoin, at the very least you'd know is not spelled BitCoin. The net effect of the China bubble is debatable, but at this point it is important we have a floor on the market. It will be provided by investment funds. Bitcoin's real innovation is the blockchain, and hopefully within a year or two we'll see some new services established on that. Meanwhile, any long term (1-2 yrs) investor is welcome. Bitcoin needs to get bigger.

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 15:57 | 4289244 Cacete de Ouro
Cacete de Ouro's picture

Winklevoss 2.0

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 15:57 | 4289245 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Oh this is just going to go swimmingly...

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 04:36 | 4290492 lickspitler
lickspitler's picture

xenofrog here tp proclaim the 14th death of bitcoin. gee gold and silver doing well, thank god you can hold it, it's about all the joy it,s giving you.

 

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 14:18 | 4291060 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

When the shit hits the fan this year, your bitcoins won't save you.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 15:57 | 4289251 katchum
katchum's picture

Making a Bitcoin fund while the bubble has just burst.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 15:59 | 4289258 Unpopular Truth
Unpopular Truth's picture

katchum - this should help you: http://www.bitcoinhatersguide.com/

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:07 | 4290322 digi
digi's picture

Hmmm over 700% YTD increase, yes, quite the bubble burst.

Fri, 01/03/2014 - 00:07 | 4295556 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Better than buying at the top, I suppose.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:04 | 4289257 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

A bitcoin ETF. Where do I sign up? If only somebody thought about doing this with silver and gold....oh wait..

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:06 | 4289267 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

This reminds me of the GLD.

Wonder how many fake mining servers Fortress won't have in the basement?

(Tyler - you are missing an "r" in Fortress in the post title).

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:19 | 4289301 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Avast ye landlubber besides Slewie-the-pirat , who cares about an Rrrrrrrrrrr?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:04 | 4289268 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Who controls the code?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:09 | 4289274 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Hermes.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:12 | 4289284 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

He who controls the code owns all the bitcoins.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:32 | 4289357 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

Anyone. Go make another dogecoin.

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:52 | 4289420 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

You can change the code?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:13 | 4289489 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

Yes, it is open source.  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 19:47 | 4289842 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

You control the code that runs on your computer and/or phone.  That code has to obey the rules of the Bitcoin protocol or it will be ignored by the rest of the network.  Theoretically the protocol can change if the majority of users change their code at about same time.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 23:19 | 4290247 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

So then he who controls the protocol owns all the bitcoins.  Beware.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:45 | 4290367 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Which is all of us, especially the miners (who have equipment investments that only payoff if Bitcoin remains valuable)

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:11 | 4289281 NIHILIST CIPHER
NIHILIST CIPHER's picture

The sheep will buy it....Why?.........Because they are stupid sheep. That is all.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:16 | 4289302 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Hellsing OVA-Twisted Transister
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbJZUYKC0rE (3:09)

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:18 | 4289308 ChaosEquilibrium
ChaosEquilibrium's picture

I hope it is Triple Leveraged....or I'm not interested nor going near it!!!!

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:40 | 4289390 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

And don't forget the 75% maintenance requirement.

You know, where you give the broker 100% of your fiat, then if you win, you collect 25%

 

I prefer to throw twenty dollar bills out of the front door into the wind, that way i know it stays in the neighborhood...

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:19 | 4289314 the 300000000th...
the 300000000th percent's picture

Uh Oh.... Key all the Bitcoin haters in 3, 2, 1.....

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:40 | 4289382 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

That's cool, thanks.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:29 | 4289345 the 300000000th...
the 300000000th percent's picture

Anything the Fed/Banking wizards/Tyranical puppets/masters of the universe hate, I like just on principle. Surprized at all the Bitcoin hate around here. Yeah its a bubble right now, so what, money is made on bubbles. As Bitcoin gets more gravity it will stable out. The train has allready left the station. It will either go to zero or infinity. Its a 50/50 bet, not bad odds at all if you were in Vegas.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:34 | 4289362 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

True, very good odds. Until the house comps you with a nice room and nice looking bit of tail, who ends up being a skank who gives you the clap. Thanks, but no thanks. Not a hater, but the whole thing reeks.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:31 | 4289367 ChaosEquilibrium
ChaosEquilibrium's picture

I like the concept....BUT

 

Bitcoin is simply a Derivative of electricity---both in the creation/mining, transferability/use, and as a store of value!  It is network/node dependent!

 

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:47 | 4289404 One And Only
One And Only's picture

That's a good thing.

The network is BIG and FAST.

Thu, 01/02/2014 - 17:09 | 4294301 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

it's a big open target, easily taken down.
That's bad.
And it's not fast enough for an exponentially expanding blockchain.
No blockchain is required for PGP signatures & they can be used to sign money-vouchers with no centralization.

Bitcoin is the least efficient, most clunky implementation possible, a true waste of silver put into ASICs and time which is unrecoverable.

 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:33 | 4289533 Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

So is the entire stock market. What's your point?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:28 | 4289351 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

I find it funny that a gold bitcoin, looking very much like a gold round, is often shown. 

But I'm sure it's just coincidence. 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:59 | 4289598 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

Alternative to gold Bitcoins?...http://www.anickelsite.com/

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:10 | 4290328 digi
digi's picture

It's not. The guy who created bitcoin also liked gold. Imagine that, liking two similar but different things at once.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 21:27 | 4294295 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

not in any way similar.
That's the point of noticing the subliminal contradictory propaganda.

Gold has atoms & can't be made by man for money.

Bitcoin has no nucleus, no atoms, and can be re-made to any purpose by a given size of humans with the will.

That means the latter can't be money and the former MUST be money with its intrinsic value. If helium wasn't so hard to contain & use it too would be money for the same reasons.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:33 | 4289363 jvetter713
jvetter713's picture

Duh....how can you manipulate the price unless you have an ETF vehicale?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 20:58 | 4289987 813kml
813kml's picture

BTC should feel honored, an ETF is Wall Street's official stamp of scamability.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 16:37 | 4291349 Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

What exactly cannot be used to scam people? I Fail to see your logic.

Thu, 01/02/2014 - 17:06 | 4294286 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

solid tangible goods, easily verified for being the goods in question & time - those can't be scammed. You can't print more time nor more atoms of gold, silver, copper & various other things.

THAT'S THE LOGIC.

Stick to what's immune to human scamming, faith, deception & the problem is solved.

Gold, bitchez

Thu, 01/02/2014 - 17:44 | 4294447 Alpha Monkey
Alpha Monkey's picture

So then all these ETFs that many claim are "scams" because they may not actually have the physical commodity as claimed are probably not scams then? I guess all those futures contracts that get dumped to smash the gold market are also not scams?  And this is simply because they are claimed to be backed by physical commodities?  Maybe you don't recall those empty warehouses some Chinese had claimed were full of copper for collateral on loans?  Not a scam in your book?

What I'm hearing then is, a non-counterfeitable digital asset run by an algorithm that reports itself to the entire world via the internet (bitcoin) about how much exists and what wallets they are contained in is MORE likely to be scamable than an inert element (gold) that relies on the honesty and impartiality of the humans holding it to properly report the quantity, location, and purity. 

Is this logic based on one of those bullshit economist assumptions like: humans are never deceitful and there is no advantage to be gained from an edge in information.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 07:00 | 4299352 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

ETF's aren't split properly into individual ownership with PGP signatures.
If they were they COULD NOT improperly match physical to vouchers.
The signatures, revoking of keys & web of trust peer to peer would invalidate such attempts.
And it would do so with 0.0000000001% of the resources wasted on bitcoin.

PGP signatures & web-of-trust (built into PGP since its first release) invalidate ALL your arguments instantly.

That was in 1992 or 1993 when I first started using PGP. It's 2014 now.

"likely to be scamable than an inert element (gold) that relies on the honesty and impartiality of the humans holding it to properly report the quantity, location, and purity."

Look, you are dumb.

That's the whole story.

Every voucher is easily verified by PHYSICAL EVIDENCE recorded that indicates weight, purity, location using sound files, video files, GPS co-ordinates, all PGP signed, and THAT VOUCHER is then SIGNED BY THE WEB OF TRUST, every other person who has access to verify & signs as well.

What is not validated by a web of trust for you - every such web being unique to each user - is not valid for exchange with you because you reject it as high-risk of forgery (yet it is not computed as a fake/tampered signature).

All fake/tampered signatures are always rejected at all times.

Have you never ever used PGP and now think yourself some kind of crypto-expert?

You're a fucking joke.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:35 | 4289378 the 300000000th...
the 300000000th percent's picture

I dont know why people dont understand bitcoin. it has value, its value is its utility, its utility is being able to move money across the globe for FREE! It has a place, its here to stay. 

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 16:58 | 4289442 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

 

 

Once I figure out how to spend BTC in other countries, then BTC has great value to millions of people!

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 07:34 | 4290562 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Once I figure out how to spend BTC in other countries, then BTC has great value to millions of fools!

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:23 | 4289505 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Correct.  Buying Bitcoin has been the biggest "no-brainer" of my life.  Nothing else even comes close.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 20:54 | 4289973 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Buying Bitcoin has been the biggest "no-brainer" of my life.

That makes them perfect for you.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 20:55 | 4289981 813kml
813kml's picture

The voting arrows on your comment aren't working, so consider this a +1000

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:20 | 4290345 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

 not even that lobotomy?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 19:01 | 4289757 Grosvenor Pkwy
Grosvenor Pkwy's picture

"being able to move money across the globe for FREE"

Bitcoin transactions cannot be free, they must have at least a small transaction fee, or the protocol will not work. If the transactions are free or the fee is too low, the system is subject to an attack whereby individuals transfer small amounts back and forth, creating large numbers of meaningless transactions which inflate the blockchain beyond reasonable size.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:00 | 4289427 One And Only
One And Only's picture

buh krubmin sed bitcoin is ebil

(formerly paid enron shill enlisted to write nice things about the energy company) who blamed....Bush for the errors in his journalim.

google around on that topic if you think I'm joking.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:06 | 4289463 smartstrike
smartstrike's picture

How many Bitcoins to buy a dollar? According to an MIT math professor, there is not enough zeros in the universe to make an accurate estimate, every valuations can be trumped. To illustrate this, imagine that a Unicorn is valued 1000 Fairies, or 100000000000000 Fairies, well a Unicorn could really be worth 100000000000000000 Faries and two wizards. who knows?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:12 | 4289483 One And Only
One And Only's picture

If someone offers me drugs at a New Years party and I'm drunk enough to take them maybe I'll come back and try to understand this comment you made.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:22 | 4289510 smartstrike
smartstrike's picture

Maybe everyone can try to figure out what Bitcoin is before they take drugs.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:31 | 4289528 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Okey dokie.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:27 | 4289517 Ralph Spoilsport
Ralph Spoilsport's picture

Interesting. I may get high enough to accept a drink.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:20 | 4290343 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

1 bitcoin= 2.43 imbeciles.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:42 | 4289536 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

GOOD, GOOD. LET THE BUTTHURT FLOW THROUGH YOU     (picture)

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1353947

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:40 | 4289551 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

WTF, beats driving to Vegas, I guess.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:50 | 4289581 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

Can someone please create a "block ZH bitcoin articles" program for me?

I'll pay you in silver coins.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 17:57 | 4289601 One And Only
One And Only's picture

No one told you about the block bitcoin articles button?

It's called the scroll bar, normally located on the right side of your screen.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 18:27 | 4289677 unununium
unununium's picture

if these guys believe in what they are selling, they will publish at all times an accurate list of all custodial bitcoin addresses.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 20:18 | 4289900 lordbyroniv
lordbyroniv's picture

DOGECOIN !!!!

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 20:20 | 4289907 adr
adr's picture

I just hope 2014 has some semblance of sanity. 2013 was like a whole bunch of 1970s college psych majors tripping on Acid.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 20:29 | 4289927 mijev
mijev's picture

On balance, I think this is good for bitcoins  there is a genuine appeal about etfs in that they allow people to invest or speculate in a certain commodity without having to hold physical. In a traditional etf of course that is corrupted beyond belief but it may be more difficult for them to lie about actual bitcoin holdings.

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 21:33 | 4290049 thorgodofthunder
thorgodofthunder's picture

In theory I love the idea of Bitcoin but the fact that it's not backed by anything tangible leads me to believe it's a giant bubble.

I prefer a currency backed by something useful, like a box of tide for example. I would freely trade in such a currency in I could redeem it for a box of tide detergent anywhere on earth. Somewhere please tell me the error of my logic, aside from the problem that there's not enough Tide in the world if everyone wants to redeem at once. Presumably the same problem went for gold when the US dollar was backed by it?

Tue, 12/31/2013 - 21:35 | 4290058 haskelslocal
haskelslocal's picture

I agree.

A man not worthy of the ability to launder is a dirty man. 

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:19 | 4290340 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

 not a bubble. just proof that there walk among us many fools.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:16 | 4290339 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

 Bitcoin is bullshit.

 Worse than fiat.

 Scum

 

 

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:45 | 4290368 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

^_^

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 07:25 | 4290561 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Bitcoin - are derivatives of the highest level.
So to say "the assets of the algorithm", which at any moment can be just turned off, in one click.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 00:21 | 4290346 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

 bitcoin is like giving the middle finger to logic.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 04:00 | 4290485 Death By Cold S...
Death By Cold Steel Report's picture

NSA is Hacked into everything right folks? What could go wrong?  Buy that Bitcoin at your own peril I say.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 11:43 | 4290733 mijev
mijev's picture

And why do I give a single flying fuck what those irrelevant faggots at the nsgay think or do? Just curious. 

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 07:05 | 4290552 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"Bitcoin Mining" - it's just fucking absurd, what if you try to think about it! LOL

In my opinion, "Bitcoin Mining" - is something of clinical psychiatry.

Something from the section where describes the types of "Mass psychosis."

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 17:05 | 4291421 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

absolutely.
A much more secure method would be generating PGP keys, signatures, loading them onto any peer to peer network & having the signatures vouch for claims on material goods like gold, silver, copper, tools, etc., and to not let fiat exchanges exist at all for it.
http://flic.kr/p/iFQMoV

Fri, 01/03/2014 - 00:13 | 4295580 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Stopped reading at "vouch for".  A nifty PGP-signed "vouched for" gold claim?  Fuck that noise.

Sat, 01/04/2014 - 20:38 | 4299356 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

what do you think BITCOIN IS?

It's an almost-voucher yet has no value attached to it. A pgp signature is a real voucher and you need only find a) who in your web of trust links to it and b) if the signature is tampered with.

A pgp signed voucher only loses value if it's outside the web of trust.

a bitcoin HAS NO WEB OF TRUST. THEY ARE ALL OF NO VALUE. ZERO VALUE.

Not ONE OF THEM can redeem value at any time ever.

I'll take pgp signed vouchers over bitcoin for eternity.

Bitcoin won't exist 10 years from now. PGP will.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 07:09 | 4290553 silvermail
silvermail's picture

12 major myths about Bitcoin:

1. The creator or creators of Bitcoin (which nobody knows anything) certainly crystal honest, absolutely unselfish and very decent people. These people never think about anything else, except for the happiness of all the other people around the world.
2. Crystal honest people who created Bitcoin, have no relation to the bankers and the power, that serves the interests of the bankers. Conversely, people who created Bitcoin, of course, are opposed to bankers, fiat money and selling power. How could it be otherwise?
3. Bitcoin is decentralized system! It is not necessary to prove this you just have to believe like in God.
4. Bitcoin system is absolutely safe! It is not necessary to prove this you just have to believe like in God.
5. Bitcoin system has no back doors! It is not necessary to prove this you just have to believe like in God.
6. System Visa, Master card and PayPal - it's business for the creators of these systems. Therefore, they take money for their services in the form of commission from the amount of each transaction. But Bitcoin system - it's just a hobby for its creators . Therefore, they do not take money for their services. They are unselfish, they good, white and fluffy.
7. Bankers, governments and intelligence agencies do not know who is the creator of Bitcoin. Therefore, they can not influence them.
8. People who created Bitcoin, do not need the money and they do not fear death. Therefore, they can not be bought or intimidated in order to provide access to system management Bitcoin.
9. Bitcoin PR company, which runs on all countries of the world and is worth billions of dollars, is only a free coincidence.
10. Plans of Bankers and government to rob the people savings, through the beautiful "market mechanism," are just paranoid fiction only.
11. Everyone who owns a Bitcoin becomes a fighter against fiat money system, which is also like Bitcoin , made ??out of nothing. Therefore, each owner Bitcoin has the right to be proud and consider myself a very clever.
12. Among those people who do not believe in Bitcoin and laugh at this Bitcoin flock, none of them are smart people. All of them are only enemies and fools. But among those people who holy believers in Bitcoin, none fool's, it is only very smart people.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 11:53 | 4290754 mijev
mijev's picture

Funny. For a moment there, i thought you were talking about gold.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 12:54 | 4290884 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Funny. Probably you forgot in this moment that God created the gold, but not some unknown group of crooks.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 07:34 | 4290564 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Bitcoin - is another classic pyramid, but hidden under the guise of "the latest IT technologies."
Fools always want to believe in miracles.
Fools think, that if they all begin to invest their money in next new Ponzi scheme, they all begin to live more richly.

Party of Fools - is the largest party in the world, which always wins in any election.
All crooks at all times know this and successfully use it.

Party of Fools thinks, that no one should work, no one should to make bread, meat and clothing. All people should engaged only in mining, purchase and sale of Bitcoin . As a result, this common Bitcoin mania, all people will have a lot of money, and a lot of food and clothing.

The idea of universal happiness without difficulty, always captures the minds of fools.
Each time, after the opening of the next grail, fools think that this time they will not be deceived.
But every time, again and again they find themselves cheated.

Wed, 01/01/2014 - 21:40 | 4292161 Godisanhftbot
Godisanhftbot's picture

 lets all make believe bitcoin is not the invention of:

 nerds who got bored with MMORPG video  games

 drug dealers

 money launderers

 illegal wares merchants

 miscreants

 anarchists

 profiteers

 market manipulators

 

 

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!