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Chicago's "Out Of Step And Outrageous" Gun Sales Ban Ruled Unconstitutional

Tyler Durden's picture





 

After ruling as unconstitutional Chicago ordinances that aim to reduce gun violence by banning their sale within the city’s limits, U.S. District Judge Edmond E. Chang said Monday that while the government has a duty to protect its citizens, it’s also obligated to protect constitutional rights, including the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense. As AP reports, the decision is just the latest to attack what were some of the toughest gun-control laws in the nation; with the NRA noting it "shows how out of step and outrageous Chicago’s ordinances really are." Despite the city's ban "to protect its citizens," Chicago last year had more homicides than any city in the nation.

Via AP,

A federal judge has potentially opened a new market to gun dealers after ruling as unconstitutional Chicago ordinances that aim to reduce gun violence by banning their sale within the city’s limits.

 

U.S. District Judge Edmond E. Chang said Monday that while the government has a duty to protect its citizens, it’s also obligated to protect constitutional rights, including the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense. However, Chang said he would temporarily stay the effects of his ruling, meaning the ordinances can stand while the city decides whether to appeal.

 

The decision is just the latest to attack what were some of the toughest gun-control laws in the nation.

 

...

 

National Rifle Association lobbyist Todd Vandermyde applauded Chang’s decision, saying it “shows how out of step and outrageous Chicago’s ordinances really are.”

 

...

 

Every year Chicago police recover more illegal guns than officers in any city in the country, a factor of lax federal laws as well as lax laws in Illinois and surrounding states related to straw purchasing and the transfer of guns,” Drew said. “We need stronger gun safety laws, not increased access to firearms within the city.”

 

...

 

“That is one of the fundamental duties of government: to protect its citizens,” he wrote. “But on the other side of this case is another feature of government: certain fundamental rights are protected by the Constitution, put outside government’s reach, including the right to keep and bear arms for self-defense under the Second Amendment.”

 

Chicago last year had more homicides than any city in the nation. City officials have long acknowledged the ban on gun sales has been weakened due to the legal sale of guns in some surrounding suburbs and states.

 

...

 

“All the people I know who own guns legally are really careful,” said Pacholski, whose wife, also was a plaintiff. “I’m a collector; my guns are not going anywhere unless I know where they’re going because I don’t want to be responsible for someone’s death.”

 

Illinois Council Against Hand Gun Violence campaign coordinator Mark Walsh said he wasn’t surprised by the ruling.

 

“I’m not sure what the city’s plan is (following the ruling), but I think obviously there is a need to make sure gun dealers coming into the city are aware of those who have restrictions on gun ownership and don’t sell to them,” he said.

 

Chicago still has a ban on assault weapons.

As we noted previously, the facts are problematic for the anti-gun lobbyists (no matter how much common sense they believe they have)...

In an inconvenient truth moment for the anti-gun lobby, Harvard's Don Kates and Gary Mauser expose the facts behind gun control and violent crime. While not the first time we have discussed this awkward reality, the depth of the academics' datasets and the findings are unquestionable that there is in fact a "negative correlation" between violence and gun ownership. As they state,

"where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense violent crime rates are highest,"

The burden of proof rests on the proponents of the more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death mantra, especially since they argue public policy ought to be based on that mantra.

To bear that burden would at the very least require showing that a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that have imposed stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide). But those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared across the world.

 


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Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:18 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:20 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

If these people really wanted to stop "gun violence" they would ban thugs (but that wouldn't be politically correct).

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:55 | Link to Comment PrecipiceWatching
PrecipiceWatching's picture

And yet your comment is dripping with political correctness.

Proper banning would be dictated by FBI crime statistics broken down by race.  That means persons of color, most especially BLACKS.

In other words, Profile, baby.

 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:17 | Link to Comment Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

a judge publicly stating that gubmint is 'obligated to protect constitutional rights'

circa 2014 reign of Odoofus, THAT'S CRAZY TALK

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:42 | Link to Comment Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

Make open carry of handguns legal and mandatory in Chicago and let Smith & Wesson and Colt and Ruger and Keltec and even fucking High Point sort em out!

THEN we would see some civility for a change.

Of course there would be about half as many people left alive in Chicago.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:09 | Link to Comment Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

Don't forget legalizing concealed carry.  I would argue the opposite would happen and there would be a violent breakout of peace.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:31 | Link to Comment negative rates
negative rates's picture

When you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:54 | Link to Comment gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

The judge once had a maid that just said _______ (fill in the blanks)

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:17 | Link to Comment Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

Duke:  The problem with concealed carry is that you still have the problem of "brandishing a weapon" even if it prints a little.

And concealed carry weapons tend to be smaller with less capacity, sight radius, snappy recoil, etc.

With mandatory open carry THEN you've got much better options of what to carry like a nice big revolver (or even TWO) and ya can be "stylin" with a fancy gun belt, a nice hip, shoulder or bandolier holster...

Think of the boost it would give the fashion industry!

Of course there are always going to be those frugal types who just want to carry "Mexican" style and that's OK, but it makes carrying two big revolvers a bit difficult on certain aspects of the anatomy.

Wed, 01/08/2014 - 10:51 | Link to Comment fallout11
fallout11's picture

Statistics show that in the vast majority of cases the presence of a gun prevents a crime without it ever even being discharged. Thus open carry also offers substantial deterant value not found with concealed carry.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:13 | Link to Comment InjectTheVenom
InjectTheVenom's picture

... and a surprise IRS audit of Judge Chang begins in  3 ... 2 ... 1    .  .  .  .  .

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:44 | Link to Comment Jam Akin
Jam Akin's picture

Surprisingly he was nominated to the federal court by Obama in 2010.

Incidentally, Chicago had a big drop in number of murders this year past in both relative and absolute terms:

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/01/the-year-in-murder-2013...

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:45 | Link to Comment TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

The drop in crime due to a shortage of people left to murder

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:47 | Link to Comment chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Make open carry of handguns legal and mandatory"

Do you mean like this? :

"It has been featured as one of the top 10 best towns in America for families by Family Circle magazine, and it has one of the lowest crime rates in the entire Atlanta metropolitan area. But one little-known fact about Kennesaw, Georgia, population 30,000, is that heads of household living in the town are required by law to own at least one firearm."

I used to know one of their former mayors.  I told him that was pretty cool.  He said, "Nah, we pretty much took turns being mayor."

http://www.naturalnews.com/038895_gun_ownership_Georgia_safety.html

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:41 | Link to Comment synergize
synergize's picture

If they want to stop crime then forget prison - murderers are killed 1 week after conviction.  And do it publicly.

Voila!  Crime rates drop!

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:44 | Link to Comment FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

For an example, see how well this has worked in Canada.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:55 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Excellent idea!  We'll just tell the families of those who were innocent, wrongly convicted and then executed that it was all for the greater good!  I'm sure they'll understand. 

False Confessions

In about 25% of DNA exoneration cases, innocent defendants made incriminating statements, delivered outright confessions or pled guilty.

These cases show that confessions are not always prompted by internal knowledge or actual guilt, but are sometimes motivated by external influences.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/False-Confessions.php

And look up the Reid Technique.  I do simply do not trust our government to get it right when it comes to taking away something that can never be given back and cannot even be compensated for.  It's not that I don't think that child rapists and the like don't deserve to die, they do, but a lot of innocent people would die. 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:03 | Link to Comment Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

+1

You beat me to it.  Don't forget the motivation shift for a speedy trial this would create.  So much for appeals, it's pointless to prove true innocence when the primary suspect is already dead...

 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:11 | Link to Comment PrecipiceWatching
PrecipiceWatching's picture

Hmmmm.   Let's see,

Execution 1 week, or 25 YEARS after conviction.

Which is more insane?

We need something in between, but I think MUCH more toward the 1 week interval.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:59 | Link to Comment pods
pods's picture

Just remember, this is power that you are giving THE STATE.

And they are REALLY good at killing people.

pods

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:10 | Link to Comment PrecipiceWatching
PrecipiceWatching's picture

I'm not giving them anything.

The "State" (actually, mostly the individual states themselves), already have the power to execute properly convicted criminals. 

We are just discussing the reasonable time frame to carry out sentence here. 

Arguing against Capital Punishment is another argument.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:52 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Actually, the arguments that I gave apply just as well to both banning capital punishment, as well as increasing the time frame between conviction and execution.  Just knowing cops' propensity to lie on the stand would be more than enough to make me much more comfortable handing down a life sentence instead of death, were it up to me in a capital case. 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:14 | Link to Comment Payable on Death
Payable on Death's picture

I gave up support for the death penalty when I realized my opposition to government is much based upon its incompetence and corruption. Why would the government be competent and trustworthy with capital punisment and not much else?

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:27 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Yup.  My DA is retarded and there have been cases of DAs pursuing serious charges against individuals even though the DA knew that the individuals were innocent.  Police perjure them selves with a shocking regularity, and even when they don't a lot of them are not smart enough to conduct a proper investigation. 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:10 | Link to Comment Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

I hear you.  I have been against death penalty since I came to the conclusion that meting out death is far more responsibility than gubmint is capable of responsibly handling

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:49 | Link to Comment chemystical
chemystical's picture

Juxtapose the "executed man who was later found to be innocent" with this:

Rates of recidivism...WHOSE NEXT VICTIMS ARE EQUALLY INNOCENT are more numerous than your poster child.

Where's the greater good: saving innocent lives or saving innocent lives?

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=17

  • Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 states in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
  • These offenders had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.
  • 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.
  • The rate of recidivism amongst the executed is a whopping zero.  Can we at least stop releasing these fucks?????????????

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:55 | Link to Comment Overfed
    Overfed's picture

    That would have to be balanced by SEVERE penalties for any prosecutor who convicts an innocent person.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:29 | Link to Comment X_mloclaM
    X_mloclaM's picture

    perfection.great.

    You get the reds, explaining, tongue-in-cheek, what the guy above you said, who has 25 greens.

     

    ZH becoming filled with fucking straight morons?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:46 | Link to Comment Rafferty
    Rafferty's picture

    You get 8 downs for stating the blindingly obvious.  Go figure......

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:39 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
    NotApplicable's picture

    Worse than that, it's not even logical. I mean, whoever heard of a self-banning thug?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:51 | Link to Comment Chuck Walla
    Chuck Walla's picture

    If gun control worked, Chicago would look more like Mayberry than Mad Max.

    Mayor Tiny Dancer must have turned a very attractive shade of purple.

    FORWARD SOVIET!

    Wed, 01/08/2014 - 02:25 | Link to Comment A Nanny Moose
    A Nanny Moose's picture

    IOW, they would ban government. So when do we get started?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Manthong
    Manthong's picture

    OMG..  whatever will they do when the crime and murder rate plummets?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:25 | Link to Comment ACP
    ACP's picture

    Sounds like time for a focus group.

    So Mr. Mayor, if crime drops, maybe we can start paying people to commit more crimes to keep the anti-gun narrative going...

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:27 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
    Dr. Engali's picture

    You don't seriously believe that Rahm will adhere to this ruling do you? The gun grabbers will just ignore this.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:37 | Link to Comment metastar
    metastar's picture

    There are no illegal guns. There is only illegal confiscation.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:39 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
    El Vaquero's picture

    Well, as long as the system is still standing, and people aren't rolling the mothafuckin' guillotines, the only thing left to do is to sue the motherfuckers into the ground.  Start running their coffers dry even faster than the retards are doing so themselves, then ask "How are you going to pay those pensions when you're bankrupt, assholes?"  Fighting these lawsuits gets expensive, and at some point, with Chicago blatently ignoring what the courts say, people will be able to show a compelling government interest in awarding punative damages when cases involving damages arise. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:54 | Link to Comment Ranger_Will
    Ranger_Will's picture

    "Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

    -John Adams, Letter to the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts, 11 October 1798

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:01 | Link to Comment Winston Smith 2009
    Winston Smith 2009's picture

    "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people."

    Redundant. One can be highly moral without being religious. And one can be highly immoral when driven by religion.

    Wed, 01/08/2014 - 11:00 | Link to Comment fallout11
    fallout11's picture

    True. Further, John Adams (coauthor of the Declaration of Independence, btw) was also the author and signator of the Treaty of Tripoli (1797), ratified unimously by the US Senate containing many of the founding fathers of this country, which states categorically: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,...."

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:02 | Link to Comment kralizec
    kralizec's picture

    Got that right.  These Nazi's never give up their fascist dreams.

    My guess is they go the excessive cost route, place massive taxes etc on guns and ammo and related products...make it impossible to buy or sell in their environment.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:27 | Link to Comment Dinero D. Profit
    Dinero D. Profit's picture

    (pssssst!  Lean closer to the monitor so I can whisper.)

    When the SHTF, ammo smugglers are going to make a million! --that is, if they know how to smuggle.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:30 | Link to Comment Crash Overide
    Crash Overide's picture

    "OMG..  whatever will they do when the crime and murder rate plummets?"

     

    They will loose potential profit in the privite prison system.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:23 | Link to Comment chubbar
    chubbar's picture

    Amazing how many politicians and anti-gunners don't seem to understand the words "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED". Do we really need to go back and figure out what the meaning of "is, is"?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:41 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
    El Vaquero's picture

    I don't know why Clinton went with that defense.  He's from Arkansas.  If it's not in the family, it's not sex, pure and simple. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:18 | Link to Comment pods
    pods's picture

    In some places, Eatin ain't cheatin!

    pods

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:07 | Link to Comment DCFusor
    DCFusor's picture

    The libs obviously didn't read John Lott's well-researched book, "More guns, less crime".  He was just a sociologist at the time, no particular axe to grind, and doesn't even like the fame he now has, since the NRA found out about it.

    It's too damn dangerous to mug grannie if she might pull out a .45 and dot your eyes.

    Bush didn't want to sign the "must issue" concealed carry law in TX when he was governor there, but he did it, and crime went down.  It's a pattern everywhere it's been tried.

    Hit on a CCW person, you die.  No extended 3 hots and a cot while you fool with the legal system.  Bam, dead, right now.  Even dumb-ass criminals figure this out.  The ones that don't at least aren't recidivist.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:32 | Link to Comment PrecipiceWatching
    PrecipiceWatching's picture

    Lott's work is a seminal work on this subject, thus it is verboten, shunned and ignored among statists and "progressives".

    Same treatment as "The Bell Curve", another exhaustively researched work, that came to a number of politically incorrect conclusions. 

    Sadly, the thesis of both books would achieve a fair number on down votes here on "Fight Club"

     

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:43 | Link to Comment Temporalist
    Temporalist's picture

    I think you think The Bell Curve states something it doesn't.  Here is a direct quote:

    "The debate about whether and how much genes and environment have to do with ethnic differences remains unresolved."

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:51 | Link to Comment PrecipiceWatching
    PrecipiceWatching's picture

    I think you need to read the entire work, including the copious illustrative material, rather than tossing out a single sentence.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:16 | Link to Comment MieleBauknecht
    MieleBauknecht's picture

    selling guns to idiots simply results in 1000x more deaths than in countries where its regulated. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:20 | Link to Comment pods
    pods's picture

    Thanks for that.  

    Can we PLEASE bring back the CAPTCHA?

    pods

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:32 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
    Dr. Engali's picture

    So what you are saying is that you shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:45 | Link to Comment Temporalist
    Temporalist's picture

    In countries where it's regulated like Australia?

    Gun Control - Watch What Happens When Guns Are Banned

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyS3CEIbpJo

    Armed Robberies UP 69%
    Assaults With Guns UP 28%
    Gun Murders UP 19%
    Home Invasions UP 21%

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:16 | Link to Comment fonestar
    fonestar's picture

    I've chatted and read comments from a number of shooters in Australia, New Zealand, UK and even here in Canada that severely piss me off.  They've bought into this "good gun, bad gun" bullshit.  They seem to honestly believe the social engineers only want to ban evil looking military "assault weapons".  Of course the reality is the social engineers are just waiting for a psycho to commit a crime with a bolt action rifle and they will be coming for their bolt actions, rimfires and airguns too.

    Thu, 01/09/2014 - 17:13 | Link to Comment Dollar Bill Hiccup
    Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

    There are estimated to be 1 million semi automatic rifles of the fictional assault weapon variety in NYS.

    On average, there are about 5 - 6 homicides a year in the State with rifles, any rifle ... a musket, a bolt gun, a lever action, etc. The FBI stats do not distinguish.

    The fact is, hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers are responsible citizens.

    The hysteria is not born out by the facts.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:17 | Link to Comment 1835jackson
    1835jackson's picture

    Fucking duh. Gun bans are stupidest laws ever. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:21 | Link to Comment pods
    pods's picture

    I don't care if they are stupid or not. We told the government to stay the fuck out of this issue, explicitly.

    Want to regulate weapons ownership?

    Pass a fuckin amendment.

    pods

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:24 | Link to Comment Meat Hammer
    Meat Hammer's picture

    pods, deep down inside the progressives know that a constitutional amendment is the only true way to regulate gun ownership, and they also know that it would go down in flames, thus killing the debate for good.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:12 | Link to Comment pods
    pods's picture

    It always kind of irks me when people speak about rights in terms of "needs."  Like, why do you need X,Y or Z?

    It has nothing to do about need.  Never did.  Always about power distribution.  Governments wants to concentrate power.  

    If it were about safety, why not make it a responsibility of the po po to actually keep us safe?  Cause the courts have long ruled that it is not THEIR job to do so.
    So whose job is it?  Correctly, it is MINE and mine only.

    You cannot have it both ways. I am responsible for my safety, so I am in charge of dictating terms of how best to do so.

    You cannot be in charge of something and have to ask someone higher up how to do it.  If so, they are in charge.

    Po po like being in control, but not responsible.  Best of both worlds for them. They can crash through any door they want.
    Adrenalin is a mad drug.  Especially for low IQ folks.

    pods 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:23 | Link to Comment Meat Hammer
    Meat Hammer's picture

    I like to take the conversation even further with the gun-grabbers who say nobody needs 30 round magazines and ask them to define what "arms" are in the right to bear arms.  It literally means that I have the right to own a Sherman tank, just not the right to pump a few shells into my neighbor's house if they play their music too loud.  

    arms

    1. weapons and ammunition; armaments. "they were subjugated by force of arms" synonyms: weapons, weaponry, firearms, guns, ordnanceartillery, armaments,munitions, matériel More

    They typically respond with "nowhere in the 2nd Amendment does it say that i have the right to own a tank".  That's the point when I change the subject because arguing with a drone makes my head hurt.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:14 | Link to Comment Overfed
    Overfed's picture

    The whole tank argument is idiotic as fuck, 'cause guess what? If you can afford a tank, you can fukkin' buy a tank. Or even build one if yer handy. Lots of regular people own tanks. If the gun is operational, it has to be registered as a destructive device.

    Gawd, those people give me a headache.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Dollar Bill Hiccup
    Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

    Bullseye!

    Every able bodied adult should bear arms.

    Responsible citizens.

    Not consumers.

    Not morons.

    Not self indulgent fools.

    Citizens.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:08 | Link to Comment Abitdodgie
    Abitdodgie's picture

    Do you mean Citizen or citizen, 99% of people in the UNITED STATES are citizens and have no rights only Citizens that live in the United States of America have rights and there is only about 500,000 of them .

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:11 | Link to Comment dizzyfingers
    dizzyfingers's picture

    100 up votes for you D.B.Hiccup

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:22 | Link to Comment Rising Sun
    Rising Sun's picture

    fucking socialists at it again - Barry's brown nosing Rum Emanuel trying to turn Chicago into a socialist shithole.

     

    both Emanuel brothers need a shotgun blast to the face - that other fucking Emanuel architected Barrycare - what a fucking mess that is

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Grande Tetons
    Grande Tetons's picture

    Trying to turn....

    Chicago is a confirmed socialist shithole. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:52 | Link to Comment chubbar
    chubbar's picture

    Had a couple of relatives with me for Xmas from Chicago (the nice area of town). They were so pleased with Obama care and having their property taxes doubled (not kidding, they really felt like they were helping out) it was hard not to throw them out of the house. Anyway, a couple of years ago I had to go out of town and they were looking after the ranch for me. After the tour and explanation of feeding, etc., I went to show them where the shotgun was and how to use it. You would have thought I was going to show them how to chop off a leg or something. They would not even so much as look at the gun, to say nothing of learning how to use it. They live about 1/2 mile from the epicenter of the minority FSA and they are going to be the easiest free lunch those fuckers ever were served up when TSHTF. They refuse to even consider things like grid failure, currency crisis, etc., so they will not develop a plan "B" to get out of the city. Every time they leave I consider it a miracle if I ever see them again and say goodbye like it is the last time I have the chance. It's very strange how they have been brainwashed into this state of mind and I often wonder what they will be thinking when about 1,000 thugs are marching down their street looting,raping and burning. Maybe they'll actually feel good about being killed since they have so much white guilt? Anyway, i can tell you this, there are really people out there who are ready, willing and able to vote away the constitution.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:59 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
    El Vaquero's picture

     

    Anyway, i can tell you this, there are really people out there who are ready, willing and able to vote away the constitution.

    Sounds like they want to be "protected" and not have to worry about their own personal safety.  Funny thing is, unless the state puts you into a position where you cannot look after your own safety, it is not liable for failing to save you should something happen.  You can't successfully sue the cops for failing to stop a thug from shooting you even if they knew ahead of time that the thug was going to shoot you and decided that they'd rather eat lunch instead of intervening.  I wish people knew this and, more importantly, comprehended the implications of this. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:06 | Link to Comment Grande Tetons
    Grande Tetons's picture

    Constitution? What the fuck is that? 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:25 | Link to Comment InjectTheVenom
    InjectTheVenom's picture

    i think it's some kinda new electric car model ?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:14 | Link to Comment jerry_theking_lawler
    jerry_theking_lawler's picture

    chub...if you need a REAL person to look over your ranch....drop me a line....and I will bring my own firearms. (but I will definitely eat your food).

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:48 | Link to Comment ComputerNerd
    ComputerNerd's picture

    Too late it's already a socialist shit hole.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:22 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
    Dr. Engali's picture

    This nation would be a better place if we could just ban Chicago, New York city, and California.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:33 | Link to Comment TrumpXVI
    TrumpXVI's picture

    Actually, all you would really need to do is ban, Detroit, Chicago, Washington DC and New Orleans and the U.S. would drop to 4th place globally in fewest homocides by firearm.

    I vote that we start with Washington DC.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:50 | Link to Comment PrecipiceWatching
    PrecipiceWatching's picture

    Actually the real solution to gun violence, heck the VAST majority of violence committed in the United States, would require banning of a much more politically incorrect nature, than that involving entire cities.

    Think demographics.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:58 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
    Dr. Engali's picture

    It's the assholes who come out these cities that influence the rest of the country's politics. They think that jjust because thingas are bad in their little fiefdoms that things must be the same way across the nation.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:13 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
    El Vaquero's picture

    Oh do I hate that shit.  My state ranks high on personal freedom, and I like it that way.  I'd rather be allowed to do as I wish and have to worry about the occasional gangbanger than go the route of California.  We also get some of the fuckers fleeing out here because it sucks where they came from, and then they want to set up the same bullshit that fucked over their states.  They normally get shot down very hard.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:23 | Link to Comment fedupwhiteguy
    fedupwhiteguy's picture

    aren't you in NM? Sure, your personal freedom index is #4, but overall your state is #21. Way too many other factors dragging your state down esse....

     

    http://freedominthe50states.org/

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:22 | Link to Comment Ranger_Will
    Ranger_Will's picture

    I could not believe it when I first heard about this law.  You'd think "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" would be pretty clear no? Those Chicago politicians are dirty to the core...good thing our Preside...oh...oops.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:27 | Link to Comment youngman
    youngman's picture

    What they need is a strong Castle doctrine....anywhere..you can defend yourself....kill a few thousand of the perps and things will quiet down...say 30,000 for a start..

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:35 | Link to Comment negative rates
    negative rates's picture

    Yea, their ass is grass and i'm a lawn mower.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Lendo
    Lendo's picture

    Chicago has "safe passage" areas that outlaw guns and violence.  Guess where kids are getting raped, stabbed, and shot?

    I'm tired of the laws since criminals don't follow them by definition.  Illinois as a state is fucked for a plethora of reasons, #1 being the 100+ billion pension shortfall.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Colonel Klink
    Colonel Klink's picture

    OOPS!  Time to go judge shopping to get one of the right "persuasion" in order to get the right verdict for the government goons!

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:40 | Link to Comment Ranger_Will
    Ranger_Will's picture

    It is a great time for judge shopping! In fact I'd say its a buyers market...they certainly come cheaply these days. 

    I mean $9,500? Psh what a deal!

    http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2014/01/bedford_municip...

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:48 | Link to Comment Colonel Klink
    Colonel Klink's picture

    Jacobs....Schuman....nah not possible they could be corrupt and money grubbing.

    $5000 bond and he had to surrender his passport.  Didn't they ask for both of them?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:30 | Link to Comment Long-John-Silver
    Long-John-Silver's picture

    Gun Control is Criminal Protection. Little wonder Politicians always favour Gun Control Laws.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:37 | Link to Comment Sean7k
    Sean7k's picture

    The purpose of law is the successful perpetration of crime, never prevention of crime. While law allows monopolies and cartels to flourish, small time criminals are incarcerated, at great cost, to defend the system. 

    We ask why bankers, CEO's and polticians never go to jail? They control the content and administration of the law. 

    When you eliminate law, you eliminate the protection they derive from it. 

     

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:39 | Link to Comment Spungo
    Spungo's picture

    Why don't they just make a law against shooting people?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:43 | Link to Comment maskone909
    maskone909's picture

    if the shadow gov wasnt financing the shipment and distribution of narcotics to chi town...

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:05 | Link to Comment john39
    john39's picture

    can anyone reasonably doubt the existence of a long term plan to destroy the middle classes of most western nations, including the United States?   its all out in the open now.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:29 | Link to Comment InjectTheVenom
    InjectTheVenom's picture

    Cloward. Piven.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:45 | Link to Comment deerhunter
    deerhunter's picture

    150.00 and licensing classes to get new Illinois CCW permits.  Can't wait to see what the classes cost either.  Damn them.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:01 | Link to Comment ClassicalLib17
    ClassicalLib17's picture

    @DeerHunter,  The cost of the full 16 hour class is around 300.00.  I only needed to take the 8 hour version because I am a NRA certified pistol instructor.  Military service counts in that category as well. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:06 | Link to Comment Agent P
    Agent P's picture

    Classes are averaging about $250, so you're looking at $400 minimum to get the license.  Another potential cost is finger printing.  The law says they are not required, but can be requested by law enforcement.  They are only accepting online apps at this point, and if you choose (or are required) to submit prints, they must be Livescan, which will run you another $50 - $75 and a potentially long drive during normal business hours (my county has exactly one approved vendor).  You also need a FOID card ($10) and a state digital ID (free) to apply.  Who knew it would be so expensive/cumbersome to exercise a constitutional right?  Oh well, still better than not having CCW, which is where we were a week ago. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:33 | Link to Comment InjectTheVenom
    InjectTheVenom's picture

    and, don't forget, you'll need to RENEW your permit (including, of course, a FEE) , every 5 years i believe !

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:40 | Link to Comment NoTTD
    NoTTD's picture

    Paid $225 for both sessions, combined.

     

    As my partner says, this is the only Constitutional Right we have to both train for and pay a fee to exercise.

     

    On the other hand, it's a big ol' fuck you to the Springfield/Cook County Axis of Idiocy.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:14 | Link to Comment pods
    pods's picture

    If you have to ask permission, you aren't exercising a right.

    pods

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:47 | Link to Comment rpboxster
    rpboxster's picture

    Let Detroit lead the way! http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140103/METRO01/301030038

    Chief of Police says gun ownership deters crime.  I love his lines about LA v. Maine.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 13:52 | Link to Comment Moe Hamhead
    Moe Hamhead's picture

    lex talionis-- Instead of incarcerating the perps.. a firing squad should suffice.

    (Save alot on overcrowding in the guest houses.) 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:05 | Link to Comment gadzooks
    gadzooks's picture

    I wonder what they do in the states with the lowest crime rate??? you think its a cultural thing?? 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:17 | Link to Comment deeznutz
    deeznutz's picture

    "Gun violence" is merely a symptom of the actual problem: Government-mandated Drug Prohibition. No one ever talks about the real causes, just the effects.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:18 | Link to Comment q99x2
    q99x2's picture

    Politicians should be banned from carrying guns or having security protection.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:21 | Link to Comment Medieval Man
    Medieval Man's picture

    Chicago is a perfect reflection of the progressive belief that only government 'experts' are able to accomplish anything. Thus only the experts in law enforcement should be able to possess and carry firearms.

     

    Oh, and the thugs and gangbangers too, but let's move along, nothing to see here...

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:39 | Link to Comment overmedicatedun...
    overmedicatedundersexed's picture

    chi town, is a big profit center for DOJ gun running, ties into the drug trade nicely, cia got a lotta product from afgan to move, china is getting product below cost, as they are subverted by western culture. drugs guns prostitues all run from high level agency types in USA, otherwise open borders and afgan poppy production boom makes little sense.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:28 | Link to Comment Grinder74
    Grinder74's picture

    "Chicago still has a ban on assault weapons."

     

     

    But all the lovey-dovey-weapons are just A-OK.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:28 | Link to Comment Seeking Aphids
    Seeking Aphids's picture

    Talk about cherry picking statistics! Everyone knows that the rate of violent crime in the US is far higher than most countries and that this is directly related to gun ownership. And btw, why should anyone be allowed to own a semi-automatic rifle? What is that good for other than killing large numbers of people? Ok....let the down arrows fly!

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:31 | Link to Comment pods
    pods's picture

    Hey, when I decide that another should be the arbiter of my rights I will give you a call. 

    Until than, can you just please fuck off?

    Thanks,

    pods

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:35 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
    El Vaquero's picture

    I killed an elk last month with a semiautomatic rifle.  A buddy of mine has killed multiple elk with a semiautomatic rifle.  I watched his wife kill an antelope (pronghorn) with a semiautomatic rifle.  So they're good for killing elk.  And antelope.  I've also shot national match, regional match and any-rifle palma matches with a semiautomatic rifle.  They're good for recreation.  They could also be very useful for fighting tyranny. 

     

    But most murders aren't committed with semi-automatic rifles, so I'm not really sure what your point is.  And the violent crime in the US is due mainly to culture and the drug war.  Unless you want to argue that Switzerland has a high crime rate. 

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:42 | Link to Comment NotApplicable
    NotApplicable's picture

    Trolls don't have points. All they have is an incoherent appeal to emotionalism.

     

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:38 | Link to Comment InjectTheVenom
    InjectTheVenom's picture

    "They could also be very useful for fighting tyranny."           Well, good thing we haven't yet seen any indications of tyrannical behavior by our govern ..... oops, wait a second

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:54 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
    El Vaquero's picture

    There's a reason why I said "could" rather than "are."

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:30 | Link to Comment pupdog1
    pupdog1's picture

    Damn elk gangs.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:35 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
    Dr. Engali's picture

    Semi-automatic weapons are good to protect oneself from being killed by large numbers of people. That and I can blast the shit out of some cans.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:39 | Link to Comment InjectTheVenom
    InjectTheVenom's picture

    what type of 'cans'  . . . . . ?     ;>)

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:36 | Link to Comment PrecipiceWatching
    PrecipiceWatching's picture

    Why should anyone own a semi automatic rifle?

    Because the Founders RIGHTLY knew the historically proven fact that government is the greatest enemy of a free people.  Thus,the citizenry should be able to arm themselves to the same level as government.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:58 | Link to Comment Temporalist
    Temporalist's picture

    My F-22 was on order from Silk Road before they shut it down.

    Can I buy an Abrams with BTC?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:04 | Link to Comment PrecipiceWatching
    PrecipiceWatching's picture

    And if the US government were to use fighters and tanks against its own citizens would you remain stuck on snarky?

    Have you checked out the arsenal of your own local SWAT team?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:01 | Link to Comment Temporalist
    Temporalist's picture

    My point is that it has never been possible to get any weapon your gov. has to defend yourself in the same manner. 

     

    It's not just the SWATs either since the funds for DHS started flowing even small towns with a handful of police got military APCs, etc.

     

    You are preaching to the choir but I don't think it will matter if it came down to it because citizens don't have the same high tech gear like night vision or thermal scopes or bullet triangulation sensors etc.

     

    Incidentally anyone that was paying attention during the Boston manhunt or OWS knows what the police forces have at their disposal.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:06 | Link to Comment DLux
    DLux's picture

    Hunting large game (especially in dangerous areas with 4 legged predators).

    In addition, killing large numbers of 2 legged predators. Semi-automatic rifles are a force multiplier against multiple thugs. A 12 gauge semi-automatic shotgun (Saiga or other) with a magazine is even better.

    I don't care what race, religion, or sexual orientation you are. If you try to commit a violent crime against me and my family, you will die. Live and let live in regards to everyone else...

    “An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” Robert A Heinlein

     

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:36 | Link to Comment NoTTD
    NoTTD's picture

    Always love the irrefutable logic of  "everyone knows".   I'm dumbstruck with awe.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:40 | Link to Comment F em all but 6
    F em all but 6's picture

    Fucktard

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:20 | Link to Comment jerry_theking_lawler
    jerry_theking_lawler's picture

    Fuck that hunting PC crap.....why should anyone be allowed to own a semi-automatic rifle? Because they fucking want one. That's why.

     

    My personal reason is so I can protect myself from idiots like you trying to take my stuff (like my semi-automatic rifles)....and I wish I had fully auto rifels, but they are too cost prohibitive because of the lefties.

     

    Now, Why do you want to breath in air?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:31 | Link to Comment dexter_morgan
    dexter_morgan's picture

    You out your effing mind? If you take the 4 most violent cities out of the stats the US is amongst the lowest. The problem isn't with the 'US' - its with small segments within the US. You likely live in one of those cities ironically enough because the are the 4 cities with the STRICTEST GUN CONTROL LAWS you douche.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 14:48 | Link to Comment all-priced-in
    all-priced-in's picture

    Does the fact I own multiple AK47 type rifles make me a communist? /s/

    I long for the time when a 1,000 round case of 7.62x39 ammo delivered to my front door was $75-$80.

     

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:14 | Link to Comment El Vaquero
    El Vaquero's picture

    Yes, it makes you commie pinko through and through!  Buy American!  Where's McCarthy when you need him?  Or am I thinking about Carolyn McCarthy?  So confused...

     

    /sarc

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:29 | Link to Comment NoTTD
    NoTTD's picture

    Jenny McCarthy.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:35 | Link to Comment Trucker Glock
    Trucker Glock's picture

    Skank.  Now I remember what semiautomatic weapons are for.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:32 | Link to Comment NoTTD
    NoTTD's picture

    Yes, you are a commie fuck.

     

    Best I could find: http://www.luckygunner.com/7-62x39-122-gr-fmj-tula-black-1000-rounds

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:34 | Link to Comment all-priced-in
    all-priced-in's picture

    http://www.ammoman.com/762x39-wolf-fmj-123-grain-ukraine-jhp

    $249 /1,000 Shipping included - 

    Good luck with getting your CWP -

     

     

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:29 | Link to Comment dexter_morgan
    dexter_morgan's picture

    I remember the days when you could buy an excellent Russian SKS for like $89 with a C&R.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:03 | Link to Comment tarsubil
    tarsubil's picture

    It doesn't matter if crime goes down or goes up. Crime is dependent on many things. The ends do not justify the means. My right to defend myself was given to me by God and the Federal government's founding document says that it cannot restrict that right. The USG has a problem with itself.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:05 | Link to Comment Cornholiovanderbilt
    Cornholiovanderbilt's picture

    If ever a city should do a real life trial run of the "The Purge" it is Chicago!

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:19 | Link to Comment royal
    royal's picture

    If guns cause violence, then WHY is the violent crime rate in Switzerland almost non-existent when the Swiss have such an extrodinary number of guns per captita?

     

    Additionally, WHY is the level of violent crime in Chicago so astronomically high where there also an extradinary amount of guns per capita?

     

    What's the difference between the two?

     

    Answer: Knee-grows

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:28 | Link to Comment NoTTD
    NoTTD's picture

    I was among the first IL residents to apply for a CCWP two days a go when it first became possible to do so.   Whther it will issue remains to be seen as the issuing agency, the IL State Police,  acitively oppose it and support the nonsensical restrictions still in place in Cook Co. 

     

    Nevetheless, it felt good to give them all the figurative finger when applying.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:35 | Link to Comment Smiddywesson
    Smiddywesson's picture

    So, the IL State Police can pull you over for a minor infraction of some mundane traffic law, but they feel justified in ignoring the supreme law of the land?  Why am I not surprised?

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:31 | Link to Comment Smiddywesson
    Smiddywesson's picture

    "To bear that burden would at the very least require showing that a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that have imposed stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence"

    NO, NO, NO.  It's irrelevant what other countries do.  Many of our states are bigger than most other nations, we have 50 of them to provide us guidance, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, their law has no bearing whatsoever on our great constitution.  Keep in mind that many of these countries have a common blood and religion, we do not.  We have one small racial minority engaged in a crime wave, waging war on the rest of the country and encouraging the left to disarm us. 

     

    Let me misquote the good judge:

     

    "U.S. District Judge Edmond E. Chang said Monday that while the government has a duty to protect its citizens,...ITS ABILITY TO DO SO IS LIMITED, SO IT HAS AN EVEN GREATER DUTY TO NOT PREVENT THEM FROM PROTECTING THEMSELVES."  There, fixed it!

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:48 | Link to Comment teslaberry
    teslaberry's picture

    distraction and theatre, meanwhile look at new york city. you can buy a gun in new york city. only it's extremely difficult and expensive limiting it to only a very very few people and the rest, cops ( who themselves aren't really buying a gun, they are buying it under cover of city authority as agent for the city ) . 

     

    all this hocus supreme court bullshit is tiring. three years at a 'top' law school < I saw so many student's gushing over the intellectual nonsense of the supreme court. the world operates on a set of guidlines that make effective the policies of those who are in charge---the executives---the rulings and bench made laws of judges are irrelevent and frequently stepped around in one way or another . 

     

    one good example is the guidelines for extreme criminal punishment . the supreme court effectively made public execution to lengthy , not to mention expensive, a process that capital punishment has been rendered a useless tool. instead the federal and state govenments simply started putting people in jail for life without parole as a matter of course. many many people will never step outside a cage again. do you think the executives give a rats ass about the supreme court attempting to legislate justice from the bench? 

     

    the courts are not only the weakest and most corrupted branch of government, but the most useless and easily replaced by splitting up judicial branch duties and assigninig them to sub-courts of the executive and legislative branches. 

    oh yea---i almost forgot.

     159,000 people were serving life sentences as of 2012, with just under a third -nearly 50,000- serving life without parole

     

    <disclosure---i favor the death penalty and also favor policies requiring the elimination of plea bargaining , mandatory minimums, jail sentences over 15 years in length, prison guard unions, prison related expenditures in excess of a statutorily fixed % of the tax base to be fixed separately in each state, the financing of ANY prison construction with bonds of any sort,  sentences of over 6 months in length for any drug consumption related offense whatsover,  

     

    the list of things of i would eliminate goes on. but then the prison system as it is --is not considered by the supreme court to be cruel and unusual punishment to both the vast majority of prisoners---as well as the vast majority of tax payers and savers whose money is taken by tax or debasement to pay the profits of those who have made an enterprise out of encarceration. 

     

    bring back the stockades and public punishments. 

     

     

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:27 | Link to Comment nc551
    nc551's picture

    -1 for your promotion of initiating violence against persons who consume drugs and have hurt no one.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:46 | Link to Comment rustymason
    rustymason's picture

    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:45 | Link to Comment dexter_morgan
    dexter_morgan's picture

    Those will be next!

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:13 | Link to Comment AngelEyes00
    AngelEyes00's picture

    Why don't they allow people to have grenades?

    Because it's ok to damage people, but not buildings.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:41 | Link to Comment Trucker Glock
    Trucker Glock's picture

    That's a great question. I should be allowed to have hand grenades, if I want them. .gov hands them out willy-nilly to terrorists around the world, yet won't let me buy some.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:54 | Link to Comment dexter_morgan
    dexter_morgan's picture

    The assumption by pointy headed folks is that you are too irresponsible and dangerous to have grenades, you would of course instantly somehow become a violent and dangerous terrorist...........despite no evidence showing you to be violent or a criminal.

    Or....maybe gun laws (and grenade bans....) are just simply a self-preservation effort on their part in the event of SHTF scenarios.......

    It certainly has NOTHING to do with crime as has been proven time and time again.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:17 | Link to Comment 22winmag
    22winmag's picture

    There is an extra hot place in hell for those who make victims out of people by disarming them.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:31 | Link to Comment dizzyfingers
    dizzyfingers's picture
    Illinois Sees 11,000 Concealed Carry Applications

    By: Associated Press
    Jan 6th, 2014

    The online application system to apply for permits was officially launched in Illinois on Sunday. On Monday, Illinois State Police said they had received 4,525 applications for concealed carry permits within 24 hours.


    read more

    In Wisconsin, the Department of Justice administers gun permits. In Illinois, the task falls to the State Police, who expect between 300,000 and 400,000 applications.

    Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:30 | Link to Comment Dinero D. Profit
    Dinero D. Profit's picture

    In 1966, I was on the UT campus in Austin when Whitman (ex-marine, white, complained of migraines) suddenly started sniping people from atop the University Tower.  He sniped away for a while.  Nobody knew what was going on.

    (He hit a few dozen people, and a dozen died.)

    Finally, after ten minutes, some people started to return fire.  Sporadic at the start, the return of fire grew, -exploding into a vicious counter-attack, hundreds of civilians shooting from all directions.  The mass of return fire blew my mind.

    Well then, without boring you by detailing my impressions, -the top of the tower now in a cloud of dust, bullets chipping away at the façade with machine gun efficiency, - the counter attack kept Whitman’s head down.  

    It all ended (and hour or so later) when some bookstore owner made it to the top of the tower and shot Whitman.  He shot him lots.

    This is just an anecdote, and example of do-gooding by armed civilians.    

    However, this anecdote doesn’t persuade me to go out and get a gun.

    I don’t need no stinkin’ guns.

    However, I support the right to bear arms, and I would bear arms myself, -in a well-organized militia, -if they need a general.   

    Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!