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For Too Many Americans, College Today Isn't Worth It

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Authored by Glenn Reynolds (from "The New School: How the Information Age Will Save American Education From Itself"), originally posted at WSJ,

In the field of higher education, reality is outrunning parody. A recent feature on the satire website the Onion proclaimed, "30-Year-Old Has Earned $11 More Than He Would Have Without College Education." Allowing for tuition, interest on student loans, and four years of foregone income while in school, the fictional student "Patrick Moorhouse" wasn't much better off. His years of stress and study, the article japed, "have been more or less a financial wash."

"Patrick" shouldn't feel too bad. Many college graduates would be happy to be $11 ahead instead of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, behind. The credit-driven higher education bubble of the past several decades has left legions of students deep in debt without improving their job prospects. To make college a good value again, today's parents and students need to be skeptical, frugal and demanding. There is no single solution to what ails higher education in the U.S., but changes are beginning to emerge, from outsourcing to online education, and they could transform the system.

Though the GI Bill converted college from a privilege of the rich to a middle-class expectation, the higher education bubble really began in the 1970s, as colleges that had expanded to serve the baby boom saw the tide of students threatening to ebb. Congress came to the rescue with federally funded student aid, like Pell Grants and, in vastly greater dollar amounts, student loans.

Predictably enough, this financial assistance led colleges and universities to raise tuition and fees to absorb the resources now available to their students. As University of Michigan economics and finance professor Mark Perry has calculated, tuition for all universities, public and private, increased from 1978 to 2011 at an annual rate of 7.45%. By comparison, health-care costs increased by only 5.8%, and housing, notwithstanding the bubble, increased at 4.3%. Family incomes, on the other hand, barely kept up with the consumer-price index, which grew at an annual rate of 3.8%.

For many families, the gap between soaring tuition costs and stagnant incomes was filled by debt. Today's average student debt of $29,400 may not sound overwhelming, but many students, especially at private and out-of-state colleges, end up owing much more, often more than $100,000. At the same time, four in 10 college graduates, according to a recent Gallup study, wind up in jobs that don't require a college degree.

Students and parents have started to reject this unsustainable arrangement, and colleges and universities have felt the impact. According to a recent analysis by this newspaper, private schools are facing a long-term decline in enrollment. More than a quarter of private institutions have suffered a drop of 10% or more—in some cases, much more. Midway College in Kentucky is laying off around a dozen of its 54 faculty members; Wittenberg University in Ohio is eliminating nearly 30 of about 140 full-time faculty slots; and Pine Manor College in Massachusetts, with dorm space for 600 students but only 300 enrolled, has gone coed in hopes of bringing in more warm bodies.

Even elite institutions haven't been spared, as schools such as Haverford, Morehouse, Oberlin and Wellesley have seen their credit ratings downgraded by Moody's over doubts about the viability of their high tuition/high overhead business models. Law schools, including Albany Law School, Brooklyn Law School and Thomas Jefferson Law School, have also seen credit downgrades over similar doubts. And now Democrats on Capitol Hill are pushing legislation to give colleges "skin in the game" by clawing back federal aid money from schools with high student-loan default rates. Expect such proposals to get traction in 2014.

America's higher education problem calls for both wiser choices by families and better value from schools. For some students, this will mean choosing a major carefully (opting for a more practical area of study, like engineering over the humanities), going to a less expensive community college or skipping college altogether to learn a trade.

For their part, schools must adjust to the new economic reality, as some already have. In 2011, the University of the South in Sewanee, Tenn., cut tuition by 10%. The discount not only increased enrollment but, ultimately, brought in more money. For academic year 2014-15, Ashland University in Ohio has cut its tuition by 37%—more than $10,000. Faced with plummeting applications, the law schools at George Mason, Penn State, Seton Hall and the University of Iowa have rolled back or frozen their tuition fees.

Many colleges, according to a survey released last spring by the National Association of College and University Business Officers, are also offering hidden discounts in the form of increased financial aid. The survey found that for the fall of 2013, the average "tuition discount rate" for incoming freshmen (that is, the reduction of the list price through grants and scholarships) hit an all-time high of 45%. Such variable pricing is likely to become more widely publicized in the future as competition for students increases and as parents paying full tuition object to being taken advantage of.

But discounts don't address the real problem: high costs. What's really needed in U.S. higher education is major structural change. To remain viable, colleges and universities need to cut expenditures dramatically. For decades, they have ridden the student-loan gravy train, using the proceeds to build palatial buildings, reduce faculty teaching loads and, most notably, hire armies of administrators.

Most of the growth in higher education costs, according to a 2010 study by the Goldwater Institute, a libertarian think tank, comes from administrative bloat, with administrative staff growing at more than twice the rate of instructional staff. At the University of Michigan, for example, there are 53% more administrators than faculty, and similar ratios can be found at other institutions.

Under financial pressure, many schools have already farmed out the teaching of classes to low-paid adjuncts who have no job security and often no benefits.

This approach could be extended to administration, replacing salaried employees with low-paid "adjunct administrators" to handle routine functions. Many in the corporate world have reaped considerable savings by outsourcing back-office functions, and there is no reason this approach can't work in higher education. (If U.S. News & World Report wants to improve its widely cited college rankings, it might start by giving schools credit for leaner administration.)

Another reform that would be useful at both public and private institutions is budget transparency. University finances are notoriously Byzantine, and administrators generally like it that way. But change is afoot here too.

Several years ago, the state of Oregon launched a website, updated daily, that shows where every state dollar is spent. The result: Anyone can see how much Oregon's higher-education system is spending on things like travel, instruction and athletics. This is the sort of transparency that taxpayers should demand from public universities—and perhaps even from private universities that receive significant amounts of public money, as nearly all do.

New instructional methods can also contribute to cost savings. Online courses are already making inroads, and the model makes intuitive sense for many subjects: Take the top teachers in a field and give online access to their lectures to students at many different colleges. There isn't a lot of one-on-one interaction in such courses, but how much genuine interaction is there in a live 200-student lecture class?

Once students have acquired basic instruction in larger, less personal classes, they can apply it in smaller advanced classes, where they would deal with faculty face to face. This approach is already used to great effect by the popular Khan Academy, a sophisticated not-for-profit website where primary and secondary students view lectures at their convenience and perfect their skills through video-game-like software. Students can then use classroom time to work through problems with teachers and apply what they have learned. The idea is to take advantage of mass delivery where it works best and to allow individualized attention where it helps most.

Traditional universities are experimenting too. The Georgia Institute of Technology is offering an entirely online master's degree in computer science for $7,000. This isn't a ghettoized offering from the extension school but rather, in the words of Georgia Tech Provost Rafael Bras, "a full-service degree." The Massachusetts Institute of Technology has already put many of its courses online; you can learn from them and even get certification, but there is no degree attached. If MIT were to add standard exams and a diploma, its online degree might be worth a lot—perhaps not as much as an old-fashioned MIT degree but more than a degree from many existing bricks-and-mortar schools.

Another alternative, already beginning to get some traction, lies in the rise of various certification systems. A college degree is often used by employers as an indication that its holder has a reasonable ability to read, write, show up on time and deal with others. But many employers are unhappy with the skills that today's graduates possess.

This has led to the rise of certification schemes from within the higher education world, including the Educational Testing Service's Revised Collegiate Learning Assessment (CLA+) and ACT's WorkKeys, which is explicitly aimed at employment skills. Manufacturing companies are working with online schools and community colleges to create "stackable certificates" that vouch for specific competencies. Such programs may someday bypass higher education entirely, testing and certifying people's skills regardless of how they obtained them.

But what about the "college experience"—late-night dorm bull sessions, partying and pizza? Won't it be ruined by these new approaches to instruction? Not necessarily.

We may eventually see the rise of "hoteling" for college students whose courses are done primarily online. Build a nice campus—or buy one, from a defunct traditional school—put in a lot of amenities, but don't bother hiring faculty: Just bring in your courses online, with engineering from Georgia Tech, arts and literature from Yale, business from Stanford and so on. Hire some unemployed Ph.D.s as tutors (there will be plenty around, available at bargain-basement rates) and offer an unbundled experience. It's a business model that just might work, especially in geographic locations students favor. Grand Cayman is awfully nice this time of year.

On the other hand, for some students, avoiding the traditional campus-based college scene might be a boon in the long run. Recent research by the sociologists Elizabeth Armstrong of the University of Michigan and Laura Hamilton of the University of California, Merced, points to the problem of what they call the "party pathway." In a study they conducted among 48 female students in one residence hall at Indiana University from 2004 to 2009, they found that young women who were similar in terms of "predictors" (grades and test scores) nonetheless emerged from college on very different career trajectories. Those from more modest circumstances were often done in by their partying-related stumbles and actually experienced downward mobility after graduating.

None of these alternatives to a traditional university degree is "the answer" to the higher education bubble. And we certainly shouldn't discard entirely the old-fashioned approach to college, whatever its shortcomings. A rigorous liberal arts education, with an emphasis on reading carefully and writing clearly, remains a tremendous asset, for employment as for citizenship. (The key word here, however, is "rigorous.")

But there is no point in trying to preserve the old regime. Today's emphasis on measuring college education in terms of future earnings and employability may strike some as philistine, but most students have little choice. When you could pay your way through college by waiting tables, the idea that you should "study what interests you" was more viable than it is today, when the cost of a four-year degree often runs to six figures. For an 18-year-old, investing such a sum in an education without a payoff makes no more sense than buying a Ferrari on credit.

The economist Herbert Stein once said that if something can't go on forever, it will stop. The pattern of the last few decades, in which higher education costs grew much faster than incomes, with the difference made up by borrowing, can't go on forever. As students and parents begin to apply the brakes, colleges need to find ways to make that stop a smooth one rather than a crash.

 

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Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:55 | 4309381 shepherd
shepherd's picture

Hello, Flinstone somebody home?

Talk about runaway costs for AMERICAN  students will ya.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:53 | 4309715 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Yes, because government loans and grants. If people had to pay for the costs out of what was in their bank account at that moment, it would not cost as much. That is why it was so much more affordable prior to about 1985 or so. Same with the cost of routine healthcare. I hope you are leading to many sheep, Mr. Shepherd.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 22:14 | 4310118 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

As you may have learned Sweden and Norway are very cold and white.  And they are white year round!  Get it?  it all about culture.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:20 | 4309334 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

How do you say "dingbat" in Norse?

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:54 | 4309016 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

GM style channel stuffing except with kids.

This is just like the housing bubble too; overvalued assets with declining incomes.

The jobs and industries - not to mention companies willing to commit to a human being - are not there to support the kids chasing the American Dream which has become the American Nightmare.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:58 | 4309042 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

If everyone gets a diploma. What good is having a diploma ?

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:32 | 4309149 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Read all about it, dry powder A students go to war over money, no execptions!

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 15:59 | 4309046 Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder's picture

I have a real problem with the "certification" scheme... more and more job requirements list all these certs, certs that might cost anywhere from $500 to $10,000. All it is is another way to rack up revenue for a company providing them and debt on to the student. I have a masters yet don't qualify for quite a few jobs just because I don't have one of these very incredibly specific certs. I've seen some certs that with the combination of my education and experience are nothing more than what I do every day, if allowed I could probably just test out of it. Yet, I can't get a job in a certain field because I don't have that cert. Again, in my opinion, it's just another scam.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:54 | 4309233 RKDS
RKDS's picture

Almost the entire economy is a scam and politics is two gangs of liars trying to outlie the other.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:03 | 4309275 darteaus
darteaus's picture

In the IT field, the people actually doing the work are too busy to get certified.  Those out of work are the ones who get certified.  So, at the end of the day, HR will only interview a guy who's certified on a technology, but doesn't really know how to deliver a project with it.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:40 | 4309681 Wilcox1
Wilcox1's picture

Yeah, that HR gatekeeper is the gender studies major that got a job.  

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:19 | 4309049 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Imagine having this type of discussion with a financial purchase?

All education is a bad investment?

All houses are a bad investment?

Would not you have to look at the house to decide?  The neighborhood? The financing?  Your tax situation?  Your expected future move probability?

To group all degrees together without looking at both expected earnings and expected costs for an Internal rate of return of each is just bad journalism and ZH should be ashamed to be complicit with this ongoing "stupidification" of complicated issues.

In a future world without jobs for everyone, they will be rationed out.  In most cases they will be rationed based on ability to affect the bottom line,  knowledge and education and will provide a salary driven mostly by the market.  That is all quantifiable and can be used to make reasonable decisions.

It is the quality of education and knowledge that we should be talking about, not throwing the intellectual equivalent of raw meat into a room full of Neanderthals.

Really disgusting that ZH is so deadheaded on this.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:01 | 4309051 Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder's picture

As for student loans. how many people, even if they can afford to pay the monthly payment when they graduate, will do just that. Then a few years down the line, they think they have been paying off their debt only to realize the principle balance is the same, that for years they have only been paying interest. Biggest scam ever....

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:55 | 4309198 darteaus
darteaus's picture

It is, if you don't get a degree in a field with a job at the end.  For an accountant, a computer programmer, a nurse or a doctor, a student loan is not the "Biggest scam ever".  For an art history, italian language specialist, etc.-maybe. 

Too many people buy into the myth (higher education sales job) that you should just get a degree in something you like, and they sign the paper to take the money fantasizing that "it will all work out", or just wanting to get out of mom & dad's house, or a million other reasons.  It doesn't matter what the reason is if you sign the paper.

That said, there is a maturity metamorphosis that happens in college, and that is worth something, but that alone does not get someone a job.

It does amaze me still that people want to be treated as an adult, they want full freedom to make their own decisions, and then they want someone else to pay the tab.  But I guess that's how we have the debt situation in the US that we have now...

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:33 | 4309662 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

LOL.
If you want to be a computer programmer your #1 language needs to be Hindi.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:51 | 4309223 Chump
Chump's picture

If my wife and I went by the servicing company's repayment schedule we'd be paying for ~33 more years.  For a freaking student loan.  We're not doing that of course, but I would wager we're in the minority.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:04 | 4309065 youngman
youngman's picture

We need a German system...the kids take a test....and they either can go to college prep schools or they go to an apprentice school to learn a trade....we need trades people....not an African womens poet specialist....hard trades....construction management...welding...engineering...healthcare...etc...not the pansy liberal arts of today that takes 7 years of parties to graduate......college now is just a very expensive party...kind of like the free drinks while you are gambling in Vegas....when you lose 100...that rum and coke is not so cheap anymore

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:09 | 4309291 DblAjent
DblAjent's picture

The trades have been OUTSOURCED as well - to illegal Mexicans.

Drive by any construction site. White vans. Unskilled Mexicans. And 1 Merikan boss drinking coffee talking on his smaht phone.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:00 | 4309458 Platinum
Platinum's picture

I can see a lot of home businesses banding together after the collapse to make "real" things. There are a lot of tradespeople in other jobs because of the aforementioned outsourcing. As soon as there is a real market for their knowledge, there will be a market for it and what it produces.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:07 | 4309070 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Give me a break. A two year degree with an LVN license will land you a job as a Medical Case Manager @ $35-$50 per hour to start.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:13 | 4309087 kralizec
kralizec's picture

I would advise young people to look to trade schools and obtain a skill that can provide a living both now and after the collapse... Gunsmith, welding, metal fabrication, carpentry...

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:42 | 4309686 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

My plumber bought a diesel pusher motorhome because he's bored taking his boat out on the lake where his home is.

He's my plumber because he's cheaper than everyone else and I only use him for permit work when I have to, otherwise I do it myself.

There's a lot of money in making shit go away and it's not rocket science.

Lets face it. A retard can sweat copper and glue PVC.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:14 | 4309102 Towgunner
Towgunner's picture

Today, education is the ultimate racket. It's already obsolete, better and more efficient means of transmitting and aborbing information are all around us and many are free aka via the internet. So, what's holding back this inevitable "progress"...interestingly a thing that is falsely blamed as a consequence of capitalism, which happens to be what professors and academia preach against. Its a monopoly. Think about it, what is the accrediation process but a monopoly? Can you come to market with a better product than harvard...absolutely. But, will it resonate?Not so long as the accredication afforded to harvard and yale and the like exist. It gets worse. There are many reasons for the decline in education (quality of product), consider that "tenure" removes key components of competition that would otherwise keep teachers sharp. Bottom-line: too bad for the progressives because academia is doomed as its already obsolete held together by the greed, perhaps not of evil white men this time, but evil white men, women and all shades who preach one thing and do the opposite. These fools, the supposed brightest of us, will soon realize they've destroyed themselves and, yes, progressivism too. And good riddance. 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:23 | 4309126 Towgunner
Towgunner's picture

Another thing, per the progressive liberal bullcrap dominating academia. If fleecing students for your own selfish ends wasn't hypocritical enough, consider that education is extremely discrimintory and has, very much, resulted in a caste system within the US. While harvard and yale might host sex weeks in the name of "equality", seemingly because horse-lovers are "born that way", will they also assign they same leve of equality to a mentally retarded people? They were born that way, fit every criteria as an aggrieved victim group, experience discrimination, once more, gender studies says everyone is exactly the same...so, where are all the mongoloids? And if were all the same why can't we all attend harvard? 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:42 | 4309188 darteaus
darteaus's picture

Unsaid in the article, the mid-'60's coincided with a college deferment for avoiding the draft.  College professors started giving inflated grades to students to "protect" them from the draft also.

Couple those culteral developments with the "awakening" of the most spoiled generation and all of the coincident cultural developments, and is it any wonder that, like many other fields in America, the quality crapped out while the insiders charged and made moar?

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:43 | 4309193 sangell
sangell's picture

Unless you are getting a STEM degree it might just be better to lie and say you have a degree if you are reasonably intelligent and can write at a college level. Claim a degree from a relatively obscure college that no one else is likely to have attended  and or commit to memory the names of some faculty members and school buildings so you can 'fondly' remember your college days and who will know? If you are worried about it being found out, go to an obscure college, particularly a failing private one and offer some girl in the registrars office a few thousand dollars cash to fake a transcript for you and slip it into the schools records. Hell if you can find someone in the registrars office at Stanford or Princeton who is in financial trouble offer them $25,000 to create your 'transcript'. Its a cheap degree from a prestigious school so its a bargain. I offer these ideas at no charge.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:59 | 4309262 darteaus
darteaus's picture

A good attitude and the ability to reason and communicate were the only things I looked for when I used to hire.

My reasoning was that I wanted someone who would stay for 2-3 years and be productive.  If the person were productive in 6 months instead of 2 months, so what if that's amortized out over 2-3 years? 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:49 | 4309217 ILikeBoats
ILikeBoats's picture

College ruins (some) women, gets them to ride the cock carousel, trains them to avoid consequences and think that government is the answer to all problems.  They f*** the alphas, which only trains them to hate the (in their mind) lesser men that they end up marrying.  Reality is that the alpha guys only ever saw them as a pump and dump.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:13 | 4309310 DblAjent
DblAjent's picture

They f*** the alphas, which only trains them

Ah...the memories...

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:25 | 4309359 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"They f*** the alphas," -  Can I get an AMEN?!

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 16:57 | 4309252 Pareto
Pareto's picture

If you like the payments on your student debt....you can keep them......forever.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:01 | 4309271 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

The IRS took my college money from my parents after they fucked up on my taxes. 

I got through 2 years of two different schools; never finished however because my father (a cop) was told our family made too much money for financial aid.  This was the only spot I found where having dark skin in America would help me as supposed to hurt me.

In a sense, despite my job search struggles.......I am *glad* I don't have a gazillion dollar in debt for a potentially worthless degree (some of them do have value, and the experience is very worth while if you make it so).

The country is going to shit, anyways.  That MBA won't be worth the piece of paper it is printed on.  Neither will the USD.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:12 | 4309305 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

On my break I was working out on the tread mill, watching TV while running. What did I see, a steady string of college adverts for online universities I have never heard of. The well know 3-4 were also showing their adverts. I saw about 6 total in a 45 minute run.

All tout financing with government aid and student loans. All showed people proud to be soon walking down to pick up diplomas. What a feeling to now have a bright future. If you trained as a nurse or medical technician or a car mechanic or the like, yes, you may be able to move up. But all the others? You know what I mean, look at a course catalog at any university! Fluff degrees. And the costs were madness. I checked into four years of study in a foreign language from basic to advanced over the full four year program, to learn that language would cost countless thousands of dollars, I did not go, even though the university is close and very fexlible with classroom and online study. Instead I invested maybe $500 dollars in books, CD's, and the like. I bought dictionaries and grammars from the country whose language I studied. A book costing $200 at college book store, was sent across the ocean to me in two days and for $40! You get the picture. I have no degree, but am fluent in that langauge now, and I have at least 4,000 dollars MORE in my pocket.

Fuck the degree anyways, I know people with the degree who are not fluent at all. It is a fucking rip off, and the college staff could give a shit less how good their program is at teaching the laguage. Just collect the fucking thousands and take it to the bank.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:15 | 4309320 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Here in my neck of the woods are a couple of small private Christian colleges where the running joke is many of the kids attend just to find a wife/husband. Sad part is in many cases it's actually true.

 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:21 | 4309345 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Since Univesity professors are fond of moving up here to the wilderness and great lakes shores to retire, I now know a number of them from major big ten schools. They are mostly early 50's to a few just over 60. All come here and build new huge vacation style homes. Probably 3 times the value of local housing stock on average. Early retirement with a fucking boat load of money. And lazy fucks, they have never worked much, they were off half the year, and when at work had small work loads. They command way to high a wage, I believe that. The few that work in the sciences and professional schools may command a high wage, I can go along with that. But I know a media studies professor who is just a fucking lazy fuck who worked his way into a university career. He talks to his students about commericals and biased news reporting and basically all the students loved him. His class was easy credits, he handed out A's like candy, and when younger, used A's to get fucking laid. Useless fuck, feed off of tax payer and student money.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:27 | 4309370 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Just one question, ask them if they had an administrative title or role.  Big difference between working faculty and administrator in terms of salary and what they actually produce.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:05 | 4309752 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Yep, arrogant as hell too. Makes you want to puke.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:25 | 4309360 22winmag
22winmag's picture

The student loan hucksters and shysters should be behind bars right next to the mortgage hucksters and shysters for criminal misrespresentation and fraud.

 

Oh wait...

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:03 | 4309746 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Doesn't our Federal government hype a lot of these loans?

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:26 | 4309362 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

An 18 year old today should put every dime and every hour into learning two or more skills that will be valuable AFTER the economic collapse.  There will be no need after the collapse for workers with well trained thumbs who can operate iPads and Droid phones.  There will be no need for English majors or History majors.  There will be no need for unskilled urban and suburban younger workers except at minimum wage jobs.  Learn how to fix things, learn how to grow things, learn how to reload ammo, learn how to sew, learn how to hunt and fish -- these and other skills will keep you fed and sheltered after the economic collapse.  

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:34 | 4309393 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Jesus Crackers...

Are kids today so stupid that they can't figure out how to pork a resume?

I was 17 looking for a job and one came up in a medical supply co. Lied about my age and added an AA degree in marketing.

There was a bit of tension while answering questions by the insurance bonding rep, but I aced it and met my new boss, a biker with hair and beard to his belt.

3 months later we got written up in the national co. magazine for most line items shipped and won the National warehouse award winning over branches that had 5x the personnel.

I wanted to tell them the secret to our success was the fatties we smoked at lunch, but bossman said it might not be wise.

Improvise, adapt and overcome.

Not taught in schools.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:02 | 4309739 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

You sound like Shizzmoney. You ought to put on seminars.

Wed, 01/08/2014 - 07:58 | 4310896 secured_party-c...
secured_party-creditor's picture

Hilarious ..

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:45 | 4309413 TeresaE
TeresaE's picture

Anyone that wants real information concerning the "value" of a college education needs go no further than this thought:

If universities exist to train and create deep-thinkers/higher-knowledge, than explain to me how a kid can graduate with a degree in Gender Studies, $200k in debt, no job prospects and still not figure out screwed they are?

If the education were actually worth anything, NO ONE would ever find themselves in that situation, they would have been taught financial reality in their first year.

Our entire education system, from pre-school to advanced, is a corrupted, trillions-of-fiat, sucking system taking as much as it can while producing nothing.  13 years cannot even produce citizenry capable of doing basic math, understanding basic contracts, or even understanding the laws of the land that they live under.

As evidenced by kids that have 13 years of schooling yet still not figuring out that $200k @ 8% and a degree without jobs will destroy their own futures.

Only the smartest are opting out of that horror.  No administrators or liberals required.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:59 | 4309734 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

That is a fine observation.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:47 | 4309418 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

I worked my way through college bagging and carrying groceries. On a good day I could make $50 cash. Sure wish I had all those pre-1964 coins I received as tips. As it was I just took my haul to the bank every friday in a bucket and they put it through their coin counter and made my deposit. Along with scholarships I was able to pay for it all plus an apartment. Was it worth the expense? I have to say that I don't really know because I've been self-employed as a writer for 50+ years. So I've never really been asked what my degree was in. Would I do it today? Not on your life. I would apprentice myself to a trade like plumbing or electrician and figure out another way to hang out with sweet young co-eds.

Wed, 01/08/2014 - 00:16 | 4310487 Law97
Law97's picture

"I would apprentice myself to a trade like plumbing or electrician and figure out another way to hang out with sweet young coeds."

 

If you have cash and a stable income, the sweet young coeds will be figuring out a way to hang out with you.  The way it's always been.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:49 | 4309428 Trying to Understand
Trying to Understand's picture

And here is a good example of the choices our youth SHOULD BE looking at... and why: http://profoundlydisconnected.com/ and http://www.mikeroweworks.com/mikes-office/

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 17:54 | 4309440 Quantum Nucleonics
Quantum Nucleonics's picture

The core problem with college is there are too many liberal arts teachers and students.  The world just doesn't need that many 17th centry French poetry majors or ethnic studies majors.  No matter how well you do or how much you spend for the best school, you're still going to be making lattes at Starbucks.

College is worthwhile IF you get a degree in something real: math, engineering, chemistry, cs, physics, or medicine*.  If your kids are going to college, or you know someone elses kids going to college, smack them with the last sentence till they listen.

* Obamacare is going to make practicing medicine suck for the next few years, which will create great opportunities for good doctors to go into concierge medicine.  If you start med school about now, you'll have a bright future - as long as you do well.  If you skate through med school near the bottom of class, your going to be seeing 10 patients an hour in some awful Medicad clinic, so don't bother.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 18:03 | 4309464 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

'If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library.' - Frank Zappa.  Years ago, I took an introductory course to Basic Language Programming at a technical high school offering evening courses - cost me $70.00.  Eventually turned that into a six-figure salary for a Fortune 50 company and got to travel around the world.  The best advice I ever got was "Never go to your boss with a problem, only with solutions because that's why he hired you."  That attitude was the single most instrumental reason that allowed me to build a successful career with a $75 investment. 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:20 | 4309796 My Days Are Get...
My Days Are Getting Fewer's picture

I graduated from post-high school 45 years ago.  All I remember is this:

First, I got a diploma.

Then, I went to "Screw U".  

 

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:15 | 4309593 savedbyfreethought
savedbyfreethought's picture

Of course it's pointless, a qualifcation doesn't mean anything by itself in the job market.

This is how it works for anyone seeking a job: First you need to have connections, either you have it or don't, if you don't have relatives in a company then don't even think about applying for a graduate level job there. Period. A degree is not what qualifies a person for a job, it's what an already qualified person (with connections ) needs in order to complete the process, it's all just a procedural formality.

If you wish to get a job with your qualifications at a place where you don't have connections, it's a bit like trying to buy something with a debit card with no money in the account, it just doesn't compute.

And don't say this isn't fair, this is perfectly fair. Why should people with this kind of interest share it with those who don't ? This is a kind of property and no one should be made to surrender his.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:26 | 4309647 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

So everyone working @ Microsoft personally knew Bill Gates?

If that's free thought, you got your moneys worth.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:47 | 4309674 savedbyfreethought
savedbyfreethought's picture

Tell me how many jobs out there as a percentage are ones that truly select on the basis of qualifications, or how many of them truly require the specific knowledge from college ? Not a lot from the way I see it, in fact the ones that are lucrative enough to justify the high cost of college education tend not to be open to the public. You can always tell me there are some lucky ones who get to become doctors or scientists or really good engineers who can have the opportunity to earn what they have with their own effort and skills and so on... but that doesn't mean tthat the rest of the world is not entrenched and it will only get increaseingly so because that's what people do.

Wed, 01/08/2014 - 07:53 | 4310888 secured_party-c...
secured_party-creditor's picture

My Father always said who you know May open doors of opportunity, but knowledge and education keep you there

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 19:44 | 4309694 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Make a killing, become a drone operator.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:06 | 4309756 rwl160
rwl160's picture

glad i became a plumber.. with no college debt..

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:19 | 4309758 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

I've said it before kids....Shocking Electricians Rates/Scalding Plumbers Fees. Hump it for a couple of years while being paid to learn the trade. People gotta have it, cannot do it themselves. Millions of old and newer half ass houses coming due every day. Oh the big bucks they are charging to repair the frozen busted pipes next week. Go warm up in aquamarine waters somewhere afterwards (not the Pacific). Earn the respect of yourself and others. Call your own shots. Party UP.

Wed, 01/08/2014 - 07:49 | 4310880 secured_party-c...
secured_party-creditor's picture

Agree... Electrician s Union apprenticeship well worth short term sacrifice

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:32 | 4309812 Musashi Miyamoto
Musashi Miyamoto's picture

Collage teaches the Status-Que. Greatness can only be discovered, like a rough gemstone, and polished through inspiration and toil. Hundreds of years ago universities used to be the bastions of literacy and knowledge. Those days are gone, replaced by an assembly line. We are no longer simple uneducated serfs; we are molded into fine, calibrated instruments, each a small gear repeating some small irrelevant motion so that the machine keeps turning over for the operators, masters of our sorry existence.

http://pathofmusashi.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/winter-shoes/

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:30 | 4309829 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

30C3: To Protect And Infect - The militarization of the Internet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYo9TPyNko (45:39)

Jacob Applebaum: To Protect And Infect, Part 2 [30c3]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vILAlhwUgIU (1:02:43)

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:37 | 4309850 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

stu•pid  (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu•pid•er, stu•pid•est
1. Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2. Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3. Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4. Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5. Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.
n.
A stupid or foolish person.
[Latin stupidus, from stupre, to be stunned.]
stupid•ly adv.
stupid•ness n.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 20:53 | 4309887 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

The Idea of Capitalism 
http://istealyourmoney.com/stupid.html

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:12 | 4309935 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

I think the truly talented and ultra educated could benefit from college, otherwise any normal beer guzzling, pussy chasing teen is probably wasting time and money.  Unless they have a good mind for criminality.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:22 | 4309967 bigrooster
bigrooster's picture

This is one meme that I will disagree with ever ZH'er on.  I spent 5.5 years and worked over 30 hour per week through state college.  Without that work I would not make that 100k+ that I do today.  The fact is that we will not even consider hiring anyone without a college degree.  Not everyone has to go to an IVY league school.  I have interviewed 100's of canidates and not once have I judged one by where their degree was from.  So go ahead and tell your kids that they only need a high school education and see how far they get in life.  Sure there are exceptions...Bill Gates, Michael Dell etc.  But for the rest of us a college education is a sure way to make more money over your lifetime.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:25 | 4309974 Playtime's Over
Playtime's Over's picture

I came out of the Navy in 1975 and went to school on the GI bill. Had a family and worked full time.  Struggled for many years and finally threw in the towel my junior year when I realized I would have to borrow some money and and after graduation would make half as much money. I was a journeyman mechanic and still am.  Now I'm glad I can do something with my hands that can't be shipped to China or hired out to illegals.  If SHTF and I don't get my SS I will work part time doing OK as long as my health holds out.  My dream of sitting on my ass , making 6 figures and keeping my hands clean didn't work out.  Maybe not so  bad in the whole scheme of things.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:37 | 4310003 migra
migra's picture

Unless you are going to school to get a degree in some specific field ie: engineer or nurse etc.. you are are wasting your money and time. I went to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and graduated with a BA in psychology. It is a truly worthless degree. I have a civil service job now that does not require a BA but I had a fucking blast in college. I left with 23k in debt that I'll be paying off in the next few years but to me, it was worth it. I loved college but I would never take on the crazy debt levels that kids today are doing unless I planned on being a surgeon.   

Wed, 01/08/2014 - 07:46 | 4310874 secured_party-c...
secured_party-creditor's picture

My sis went to UNC... BUSINESS/MARKETING

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:40 | 4310010 Surging Chaos
Surging Chaos's picture

When the Big Ed bubble finally explodes, it is going to be nothing but carnage. Some people have mentioned that the overpaid administrators and tenured professors will be on the unemployment line when this fucker blows up. That will just be the tip of the iceberg. College towns that rely on this constant flow of .gov money they get to fuel their economies will be left in shambles. If Big Ed goes, so too goes all the economies that immediately feed off it. What's the pub on the street going to be doing when it no longer gets a steady stream of college students due to the local college going bust? Or how about any other business that relies on consumption in a service-sector economy? Pretty self-explanatory.

Same thing happened with the housing bubble. It wasn't just the mortgage brokers and real estate agents that lost their jobs. Pretty much everyone lost their jobs due to all the malinvestment that happened during the housing bubble. This will be magnified on a much greater scale in cities that have their college be a central part of their economy.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:44 | 4310021 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

BTC just got hammered to 800ish...what gives?

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:46 | 4310025 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

I remember many years ago when my buddy's dad found out that he had been busted for DWI.

He said to my friend -  "By the time I was your age, I had fought a world war, got married, had a young'un and started my own business. What the hell have you ever done but get a DUI?"  

I still love to re-enact that for him when we are drinking.

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 21:49 | 4310028 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Univerisity wasn't worth it 25 years ago either.  No employer has ever bothered to check my transcript or verify my degree.  You can call your alma mater and ask them you know and I figured I might as well since they never stop calling me asking for donations the U of Who Cares Anymore.

People want to hear bullshit and employers love bullshitters.  They want sales people and middle managers who can lie with a smile on their face.  Either you are overselling the product in question for an exorbitant price or you are not performing.  In other words, all employers want are paid liars to peddle shitty overseas products.  To hell with educating the customer on what might be best for a particular need; we need sales and margin so sell them anything you can even if it is a piece of shit.  I have a serious problem with that mentality because it comes back to bite you in the end.  You burn your reputation at your own expense, the corporation profits, you get shitcanned and then what do you do?

        

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 23:10 | 4310275 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

RE

I have a serious problem with that mentality because it comes back to bite you in the end.  You burn your reputation at your own expense, the corporation profits, you get shitcanned and then what do you do?

Sell cocaine.  It's the "wealth creator of last resort".

Tue, 01/07/2014 - 23:31 | 4310343 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

I know a guy that can get better shit than this for half the price.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!