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The economy is Boom(er)-ing...
How does this end well?
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This is what happens when no one can afford to retire. Everyone will need to work till they die - or move to sucking on the teat of the state.
People voted for it.
Meanwhile, the RUT is making all-time new highs, so I guess everything must be great with our economy.
Since I can barely get 0.25% for a savings account, I can't even save up for retirment, because my "real" spending power goes down, if I park my money in any kind of fixed income asset.
I guess I could "invest" in the S&P500. That will keep going up right?
It should be clear by now that the only "returns" to be had are either in playing the very game that compounds the long-term problem or in "new" ventures.
The solutions will only ever come in the form of dealing with the TRUE fundamentals: Food, Shelter and Water.
The notion of "retirement" is a bad joke. It was a lure by TPTB to build their control. It could never have been sustainable because all is predicated on growth.
My "solution?" I have none to "offer" other than to say what I've elected to do (I could end up right or I could end up wrong, but for sure, I'm going to end up dead). Farming. "We gotta serve somebbody," I'd rather serve folks by producing food than being some part of a factory system. Pay is poor, but at least I can be "at home" and work. I'm also a bit learned in/on Water, but I don't see there being much there for a while (at least in my area- might be a good play for others elsewhere).
First thing is to stop being in denial. Retirement will become something that only a handful of people will "do." That's actually how it is today when viewing on a global basis: and on a historical basis as well, with the fossil fuel age being the only time in which it's actually been able to exist in larger numbers.
Bigger trash cans in the workplace restrooms for all those Depends. Don't you love it when the 80+ year old grocery bagger asks if you need help to you your car with your groceries?
It makes me sad and a little angry when I see that at Publix, the local grocery. I see people in the bakery, handling the register, along with other tasks, who by rights should not be working--who deserve a few years of rest. Some of them are not just old, but infirm and unhealthy.
All this is wrong.
Who says they deserve a rest? They lived through the greatest economic times in history and failed to save anything for retirement. They voted for the corrupt machine that is Washington. They voted for freebies for all, especially their generation. They decided that throwing gobs of money at wars on drugs, poverty, and terrorism was good. They decided to spend vast amounts of the peoples' monies on things like "the arts". They have selfishly lived extravegant and wasteful lives. They decided to leave nothing for the future. They decided to not even teach the youth to properly take care of themselves. They spent weekends in Vegas or the Bahamas because it was cold up north. Even the best of them just went along to get along.
This problem will go away when all the people who have sold our future for their present finally die.
NO, TheReplacement, it will not happen that "This problem will go away when all the people who have sold our future for their present finally die." By that time, all of the basic deeper reasons for these problems will have continued to get exponentially worse and worse ...
OF COURSE, "Even the best of them just went along to get along." The methods of organized crime had ALREADY been successfully applied to take over control of the government before they were born. The Federal Reserve Board and Income Tax were already in place. There was never anything that any of them could effectively do against the established systems, just as there is nothing which is now politically possible, with any practical means, to resist the runaway triumphs of force backed frauds dominating everything being done.
There was never a time when anyone who was aware of what was happening was actually able to effectively resist the triumphs of organized crime taking control over the powers of government. The vast majority of people were always the victims of the best scientific brainwashing that money could buy. (Some of the best politicians that tried then tended to die early.) The few that knew better could never compete with the real operation of the methods of organized crime, which had already taken over control of almost all social institutions, by being able to take over control of the public money supply, and then being able to leverage that up to dominate the funding of the school systems, as well as buy up control of the mass media. (As well as almost certainly being able to pay for any significant real opposition to be discredited or destroyed.)
Even today, apart from a few fringe Web sites, 90% of the information that people get comes from the biggest corporations, who are constantly lying by omission, and staffed by the best professional liars and immaculate hypocrites that money can buy. Furthermore, almost all of the opposition to the deeply entrenched established social pyramid systems are reactionary revolutionaries, who provide some good analysis of the problems, but then promote old-fashioned false fundamental dichotomies, and their related impossible ideals, as their versions of how to inspire "solutions" to these problems.
While I agree that vast majority of the "boomers" were mainstream morons, one should not overstate the degree to which they "voluntarily" agreed to become victims of the their cultural conditioning, which was already very far advanced before they were born. One should not blame them for adapting the best they could within their personal circumstances. Certainly, that meant that the triumphs of the fraudulent financial accounting systems that dominated their lives automatically got worse, faster, throughout their life time. However, there was never any practical ways to resist the ways that the best organized gang of criminals, the biggest gangsters, the banksters, and the corporations that grew up around those banksters' triumphant frauds, could ever be effectively resisted by the boomer generation, within their life time.
There is nothing that is going to stop the runaway triumphant financial frauds, except the longer term consequences of their own excessive success driving them towards their own mad self-destruction. At no time in that process are things ever going to get better. Rather, they are going to continue to get worse and worse throughout the 21st Century. The boomer generation were born into already established systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, in which context they had the most personally successful lives by going along with that. Certainly, the basic ways that huge lies, backed by lots of violence, drive civilization mad have been accelerating at an exponential rate during the lives of that boomer generation, born after World War II. However, they were never able to do anything effective to resist that, and nobody today can do anything effective to stop that unfolding now either.
"They voted for the corrupt machine that is Washington" because they never really had any choices outside of the system of that "corrupt machine," which had already been built before they were born. The banksters and their buddies are STILL making billions and trillions of dollars from their successfully implemented systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence. There is STILL nobody else who can effectively compete with them. Since everything is dominated and controlled by HUGE LIES, backed by LOTS OF VIOLENCE, while there is nothing outside of that which could stop that, the only realistic prediction for the future is that MADNESS will continue to get worse, faster, until it destroys itself, in which case there are no good reasons to believe that things will get better then ...
It would take a series of political miracles for the human species to learn to have mechanisms which effectively cared about the longer term consequences of their actions enough to change their current behaviors. Such effective mechanisms would have to work through the combined money/murder systems, to change the ways that the debt controls were backed up by the death controls. To face the facts would require understanding more deeply how and why the principles and methods of organized crime controlled the government, in order that that could be done better. However, there are no sound grounds to believe that could happen during the remaining life time of the boomer generation, and indeed, no reason to believe that kind of enlightenment could ever be developed enough during the foreseeable future. On the contrary, we are actually looking at the runaway fascist plutocracy juggernaut systems, of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, steamrolling over the future, and turning most people into the road kill of those systems.
Enough radical truth to more effectively resolve those chronic political problems may as well be on the dark side of the moon, for all the apparent realistic potential that it has to change anything. IF enough people understood how and why the government became the biggest form of organized crime, controlled by the best organized gang of criminals, in ways which then did not collapse back to bullshit "solutions" that asserted that should simply be "stopped," then we MIGHT begin to be able to have enough radical truth to guide more realistic resolutions of our chronic and increasingly severe, political problems. However, on the contrary, it appears to me that each generation has become even more of a victim of scientific brainwashing than the previous generation, because the runaway triumphs of applying the methods of organized crime to dominate the government keep on being advanced more, while, correspondingly, most other people then are able to understand that even less, because they are too effectively conditioned to not want to understand. Hence, what this "X" marks the spot chart is indicating is the overall trend that the younger you are, the more you are being lied to, cheated, and robbed by the political system that you were born into. However, relatively speaking, the baby boomer generation was also born into that system too.
It makes me sad and a little angry when I see here in Mexifornia that almost every worker at every restaurant, fast food outlet, car wash, and any other service business probably should not be working there--because they are all illegal. There are rarely older workers at most service businesses here in Mexifornia.
'Sí, Se Puede'
If you were smart you would follow their lead.
Go north young man.
Local paper - six pages of classified ads include four pages of help wanted.
If you owned a business and a snot nose kid or an older adult wanted a position, which would you hire?
I feel for the kids, but many now have little to zero work ethic.
What you see is what you get.
I disagree with your assessment that most kids don't want to work these days. I know many smart young people that are eager to work. They would love to find a job with a reasonable chance of career advancement, but that is not easy these days.
Even with a 4-year degree in a technical field, such as Engineering, Comp-Sci, Chemistry, Business, Marketing, etc., from an accredited school, they usually get a "contract" position with an option (by the company) to hire at a later date. They get NO benefits during that period, and there is little guarantee they will be hired at the end of the contract.
Meanwhile, the CEO gets a bonus for 100s of billions of dollars for; "keeping costs down"
This is exploitation.
True, Say What.
But look at the graph. Who is competing 65 years and older (for the most part)?
These aren't hi-tech jobs we're talking about here.
Greeting at walmart and taking your money at BK isn't in the same line as a 4yr new graduate.
Then again, I have been wrong before.
Again, I would disagree. I work in a "tech" field, and I know MANY "older" folks that would like to retire, but they can't, because they don't have enough savings to do so. And these people are not wild spenders that did not try to save for retirement.
One "problem" is that the life expectancy is longer now, so you need to have a larger retirement savings than in the past.
revoke the .fed charter. create a gold/asset backed currency. wait 10 years. retire with real money and low inflation. problem solved.
And like you mentioned before that 0.25% interest rate sure isn't helping. It can never be said enough: Fuck you Bernanke!
the whole thing was a set up from Day One. Even Goldman has gotten take for a ride...we'll see to where as well. "outcomes cannot be predicted"...they all sure look like zombie banks...and this sure looks (and feels personally to me) like "the zombie recovery from hell." but anyone other than the folks here who said "they cared" are simply nothing more than total bullshit artists. in 1929 "they did nothing." and there was ZERO social safety net back then. still trying to figure out where Vietnam fit in to all this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1TpLWiCcno hey, phuckers...get in there and fight. I did.
"I work in a "tech" field, and I know MANY "older" folks that would like to retire, but they can't, because they don't have enough savings to do so. "
Again, the notion of "retirement" needs to be dropped.
There is no longer any predictability in the future now that growth is dead/gone.
We are to end up living just like most on the plant do and have done.
I could get more money working at McDonalds than on my farm. But, job security? Further, it's about managing expenses. Clearly those folks who "would like to retire" did not manage their expenses: I know someone like that; I'd blasted him for soliciting funds for restoring the gorgyles in Italy (I pointed out how poor so many folks in the world were and that saving tourist shit for rich tourists was elitist); I'm thinking that reality is starting to set it.
And regarding managing expenses, one can relocate to some place that's cheaper to live. Retire and live poor or keep working and live modestly (for as long as your job is available)...
So you're suggesting we should all become farmers?
No. Just the people who like to eat healthy and eat fresh. The rest of you lot can keep on working like slaves for your million dollar bonus CEO's and stuff your faces full of fat, salt, and high frutose corn syrup till you drop dead.
Life span is lowest in USA, and medical care there is 12th out of 13th western countries.
That's the plan.
There are no more Walmart greeters.
Well I don't know what they call them now, but I was greeted by one just last week.
Contracting isn't so bad when you're young. My experience was that the money was much better than an "employee" job and while there were no benefits you really don't need those so much when you're in your 20's and gaining real world experience. I didn't give up contracting until my 30's...
I got a B.S. in Metallurgical Engineering in 2007, worked for 2 years at a copper mine, went back to grad school for a M.S. in Environmental Engineering until 2012 and it took me a full year to find employment again even having 2 years experience, multiple internships, I was an RA, and I had completed multiple research projects while in college.
I put out hundreds of applications in that year, but most job postings required 5 years experience in that specific field. Companies don't want to take the time to train anyone, so they just do without that position until that mystical "perfect fit" that doesn't exist comes along. Even though there is an entire wave of engineers retiring in the next few years as the smartest people in the past 30 years went into finance chasing where the money was and leaving a shortage of engineers, you can't find work as an entry level engineer (or even with two years experience).
I was fortunate to finally land a position through my college a few months ago, but the people at companies producing goods of real value should be the ones making six figures, not the a**hole central bankers, hedge funds, and real estate brokers. An engineer can easily make a process change that saves the company millions of dollars a year and we get nothing - the shareholders, however see a few cents of earnings per share and the CEO gets a raise and stock options that benefit from your ideas.
I agree, it is extremely tough out there, even for engineers and I wanted to share my story. To me, it is worse than exploitation, this is us lowly slaves having to worship at the feet of the pharoahs in their palaces just to beg for any useful work and consider ourselves lucky for only having to pay 19% interest on our credit cards instead of 50% on a payday loan.
"An engineer can easily make a process change that saves the company millions of dollars a year and we get nothing - the shareholders, however see a few cents of earnings per share and the CEO gets a raise and stock options that benefit from your ideas."
1) Perhaps people should not work for such companies?
2) "Savings" may only ever be, from this point on, stop-gap, as declining sales due to the lack of growth will continue to force margin compression- at some point it doesn't matter how "efficient" you are, if people cannot afford to buy (they're spending more on food, shelter and water) then it's all pretty moot.
Rather than shelling out money for more "education" I decided to apply it toward my own farming enterprise. Slow going, but to me anyway, better to have land and be learning than to be "learned" and have no land or work (that couldn't cover modest living expenses).
"Perhaps people should not work for such companies"
maybe that's the only kind of companies there are? It is coming to the point that companies have automated and cut back on labor, thinking they don't need those workers now. And, forgetting that those workers are also the people who are their customers. The owners have only themselves to blame when their ediface comes crashing down.
Look out, below!
Well you could start helping by staying out of Walmart and any other store that sells crap made in China.
Buy American made, or don't buy it at all.
Once Obama gets the TTP (Trans Pacific Partnership) passed,
you won't be able to "buy American". It will be illegal.
It's the worst ever for engineers because ALL of your income is being filtered through gov't taxes, corporate CEO million dollar bonuses, corporate sponsored health insurance "benefits," and Federal Reserve devaluing of your pay. It all boils down to immense burden upon your hard labor.
For a farmer, the food you eat came straight from your labor and never filtered through all that overhead. When the farmer goes to sell his land to retire, the Federal Reserve dollar devaluation gets zeroed out in the end. No CEO to skim off the top of your labor.
As a former engineer, I spent my hard earned money on a house with a bit of land around it, solar panels for heat and electricity, a well for water, and now I'm working in the yard everyday growing/harvesting my own food instead of sitting in a cubicle working for the man. It ain't for everybody, but it works for me.
It's not exactly a response to your intended point, but obviously I'd hire both (assuming equal ability) and have each work 20 hours/week.
Yeah, but... Managing MORE people is harder- double all the HR-level stuff. And with more people you can, as a manager, stoke the competition (turn people into ruthless backstabbers).
Well, still they are the future and it's us who fucked them up so we'll have to find a sollution.
I'm working with some of those young kids and it's not the lack of work ethics but a lack of goals because we as a society destroyed the role models.
What role models do those young kids have right now? Material products are evil... a steady relationship is so passé... woman are hookers... guys are dumbasses... I mean what do we show those kids?
As a working parent, we also get the wrong models. We are shown that we need to do whatever we want to do and put ourselfs first, not our kids.
Yesterday I was eating with my best friend at his home. This guy has it all, his own company, a shitload of money, a fleet of collector cars, a second house in france, a third in Italy, 2 lovely kids.... he has it all.
All besides one thing. His parents don't complement him about what he build and it's actually destroying everything he has because his frustration is killing him. Our society doens't show what makes you happy. What is happy? What's the goal?
I got my goals, it's my family. they're number one to ten on my list. And I'm a happy guy. We've got more than enough to go arround and we get to do whatever we want. That was and is my goal.
So as long as we don't get non material goals back at centerstage, we'll never restore our society.
Great post, sudden debt.
I didn't know you had it in ya.
Your best friend and my bro have the same guilt.
best weekend, bitchez, i'm out!
Sounds like you and your bro' are very different; why is that? Same parents? Same home life? What makes one sibling succeed and another crash and burn? I have 4 kids, all grown. One is dead from bad decisions; one is a derlict; two are extremenly successful. We gave them all the same example, the same lessons, the same genes.
If you have any answers I am ready to receive!
same story with me and my sis. she's been a mess since 13. i was golden child. not sure i have an answer; one part nature vs. nurture, another different types of friends we gravitated to, and another my dad treated us different (i always had sports to relate to).
Let my try to answer your questions.
First of all.. There is no such thing as "happy" in the world but it can only be found within one's self.
Your friend with the non-validating parents need to tell them to fuck off finally as his life is his own.
In my humble opinion.. Life is all about solving our own problems first. Then those of our neighbors and friends.
And what's so bad about "non material goals" like love and self regard and peace with one's self and others?
I'm no preacher by any means but I've had all the wealth and "happiness" as defined by our neurotic society
and found it to be an empty life as many of my peers have as well.
Words you may not want to read here but just being happy with how you are as a person is all that matters.
Right on target!
It's less work to feel happy if one feels one is being constructive (and it helps if people around you share in your ideas/notions of what constitutes being constructive- if they don't then either change out those folks or change out what you're doing).
I'd further state that one's frame of mind is what one wants to make it.
Why should they have any work ethic? The way I see it isn't so much lack of character, but of hope for the future. There is almost NOTHING to look forward to other then more taxes, more inflation, more shit treatment at any job, no raises that keep up with inflation.
What you see is what you get. You see a snot nosed kid, and I see someone who realizes they have decades longer then you or I at being ridden as a tax donkey by the FSA until they get drafted to fight for dwindling resources.
The retired crowd can also underbid youth for wages because they have SS acts as a subsidy depressing wages.
"There is almost NOTHING to look forward to"
Suicide then... or, LIFE!
Find something to be passionate about and accept toil as part of life.
"The retired crowd can also underbid youth for wages because they have SS acts as a subsidy depressing wages."
Good point. BUT... there's the issue of "health." If the youth are fit and healty then they're a better pick long-term. Sadly, however, "long-term" ain't on the radar seeing that we have no clue about what we're going to do with a System that is facing zero/negative growth for MANY years to come (and that Sytem is not designed to handle such a situation).
My wife in her middle-age years moved from the Philippines in order to give her kids a better shot at the future. I've never met anyone with such determination, grace and enthusiasm for life as she has- so, I married her!
Youth work ethic aside (I've seen both sides of that coin), the question you pose is a good one. I'd suggest the real difference is the experience differential. Paid the same and say w/the same work ethic, do you hire the geezer w/years of experience you can tap into, or a nice enough kid that you've got to train and hand hold for a while?
The really scary part of this vice is the squeeze it's putting on middle aged people. I cant tell you how many guys and gals I've spoken with who are in their prime earning years (late 40s early 50s) who are being let go. Their pay, largely the result of years of good performance and accumulated experience is deemed "too high" (though the employers never say that explicitly), and so they are being let go in favor of either fewer workers, or lower cost ones. When Obamacare really kicks in, that shrinkage will only accelerate as will the dog fight between the age cohorts for the dwindling supply of jobs.
"shrinkage will only accelerate as will the dog fight between the age cohorts for the dwindling supply of jobs."
Economies of scale in reverse.
You see, we made our money off of making iShit for the younger folks to consume. Those younger folks are broke and, thanks to the iShit, mostly distracted (and a majority are physically in poor shape).
When reality really kicks in our entire economic system, with or without Obamacare, is going to crater. When things decay we always start looking to blame this detail or that detail, never looking at the Big Picture: perpetual growth on a finite planet is what we've been doing, and now that the planet ain't cooperating we're looking to blame everything ("snot-nosed kids," "greedy boomers," "Party X," "Party Y," "economic theory X (which unstatedly assumes perpetual growth)", "economic theory Y (which unstatedly assumes perpetual growth)" and so forth and so forth) EXCEPT that our underlying premise is WAAY flawed!
I know perpetual growth is often deemed unfeasible here on ZeroHedge, but frankly, I gotta disagree. Perpetual growth IS possible. I've got some invasive vine plant that don't need water, doesn't need any fertilizer, and just grows and grows perpetually from massive energy beamed down to us everyday by the sun. Until they figure out how to destroy the sun, perpetual growth is not only possible, it's virtually unstoppable. I've been trying to kill this vine for a decade!
When growing up, my kids (now 24-31) looked at me like I was an alien when I told them to go get a job at a fast food restaurant. They refused because it was below them.
In 2002 I was the guardian of one of my nephews. He went to college to learn basket making and navel contemplation, on his trust fund, of course. During the breaks, I told him he had to get a job. When he couldn't come up with any ideas where to get a job, I told him to go down the street to the fast food joint and flip burgers. He said that was an insult.
Now he's married, three kids, on welfare, his wife works at some menial job but he stays at home to watch the kids. The guy has no idea how to get out of bed and actually deal with the rigors of employment, such as showing up on time, doing what he's told, and getting along with co-workers. Somehow he goes from day to day giving little or no thought about anything. His wife is equally as oblivious, doing her job and coming home to a rat's nest of a house. But she thinks that is the way life is supposed to be, so all is fine.
I feel sorry for his three kids, cute little girls.
@ H. Oaf,
"What you see is what you get."
Not true. It is not an either-or situation. If your "snotty-nosed" kid sees that s/he has little chance for a truly decent job and we are way past the era when companies actually paid to train workers, then yes, the kids will probably have a lousy attitude if they have any intelligence or gumption.
Lack of decent jobs for the youth is not an individual problem--it is a social problem of dangerous magnitude.
I look at most seniors today as the people who put us in this mess. They and their kids are responsible for the snot nosed kid.
I would hire the youth knowing that I can possibly be a good influence and get years of service from them. If it doesn't work out with that one then there will be more kids tomorrow.
Re: People voted for it.
They also spent for it too. How many of these OldFarts spend the money as fast as they earned it, never saving a dime in the lives.
The OldFarts - the world's greatest generation - setup the socialist programs for themselves. It was a great intergenerational scam. Too bad the OldFarts didn't think about the concept that the young people can only be screwed IF they had jobs.
By OldFarts you must be referring to the generation that went through the Great Depression and WW II. They are the ones referred to by Brokaw in his book "The Greatest Generation", although many were barely able, or too young, to vote for FDR in 1932. They were, however, around to support the creation of Medicare in the 1960s. It is a curious thing that the book I mentioned contains this quote: “A common lament of the World War II generation is the absence today of personal responsibility " I wonder if they ever stopped to think just who raised the Boomer generation to be a bunch of spoiled brats lacking personal responsibility. Of course both calling the former the greatest generation and painting boomers as spoiled are generalizations.
Should we henceforth refer to you as NOTaREALhistorian?
The so called Greatest Generation was responsible for feathering their nests with medicare and huge raises in Social Security during the '60's, counting on their Boomer kids to support those expensive programs. They also allowed their kids to get shipped off to a stupid war, and they didn't give a damn who came back or not.
You are flat full of shit!! And quit whinning! Milestones
YOU, are one big idiotic spook!
Another no "nothing" about the Greatest Generation.
You are ignorant.
The greatest generation was raised by the worst generation (the people who gave us the Fed and SS and sent the army in to breakup the bonus marchers), true. However, they got the GI Bill (unlike their forebearers) and all sorts of subsidies. They gave us the war on poverty (and more poverty now than then), the war on drugs (more illegal drugs now than then and the biggest prison population ever in our history), civil rights (with "rights" being less civil now than then). Yeah, they fought a war. It was a big war. So what? They utterly screwed us the rest of their lives.
The US GDP, the world's largest, was predicated on consumerism. Everything was pushed for rolling over money. Velocity of money. Do you know what happens with that stalls out?
If everyone saved then where would the jobs be?
Again, no one here is seeing the elephant in the room. That elephant is the highly flawed economic principal of perpetual growth on a finite planet. Blame, blame, blame... and NEVER to address the REAL issue.
The young people love Obama. Baby Boomers worked for it and went to Woodstock - so they are the best. The media has told us the past 40 years that Baby Boomers are the best.
The Boomer-controlled media has told us that Baby Boomers are the best. Well, they've been saying that boomers like Barack and Billary and Hillary and Algore are the best, but drew the line at calling Boehner or G.W. Bush the best. Brainwashed progressives calling brainwashed progressives "the best" is all it is.
As a contemporary of the aforementioned loser boomers, I say this to all American voters: Never elect another boomer to any political office. Never!
The Baby Boomers have been the best at consumerism. And it was consumerism that was the goal post WWII: pent up savings and demand coupled with geared up factory production launched the US as the premier industrial nation.
Assuming that we weren't overruning the envioronment, I'd figure that there wouldn't be a peep about any of this if there were still ample resources. And again, pointing fingers when no one is asking the tough questions (like how we can have any reasonable economic system w/o growth) is merely spinning wheels... Feel free to continue to make fruitless pokes at individual politicians (sometimes one has to denegrate others in order to have a sense of worth), while missing the Big Picture...
It's what a lost decade looks like.
THE US LOST DECADE......
Wait till you see what a lost quarter-century looks like.
Is is just me, or do others notice an increasing deterioration in the labor force participation (not the boomers) following Harry Reid's ascension to power as Senate Majority Leader joined by Nancy Pelosi's as Speaker of the House? For readers not familiar with the US Constitution, Congress controls the spending, not the president. In theory, anyway.
No you are wrong.
The economy is great.It's growing,it's already recovered and is recovering even more every minute.
The stock market is up!
The unemployment rate is down!Yea!
We have never had it so good.
Obama is great!
He is wise and able.Harry Reid too.He is not an evil Mormon dwarf.
The democrat party is the best!
America is in the bestest state it's ever been in,ever!
Great, another subliminal Party Pussy plug...
The peak was 1971. Peak US oil production (on the path to become a net importer); USD off the gold standard; start of "relations" with China (pave the road to sell out to them [mututal exploitation]).
Hmm, would that have been the greatest generation in leadership during that time?
Exactly the same outcome experienced in the Former Soviet Union in the late 80's.
< oh the irony >
Yes indeed. And when the IMF posse was asked after the collapse, what is supposed to happen to all those bankrupted retirees who cannot adapt to the new reality, the hushed answer was they will have to die off.
Steve Liesman...that's why you need to listen to that guy and GET SMART PHUCKERS! "Nobel Prize winner" because he went over there to pick up the pieces. "there was a lot worth picking up" (in an academic sense) needless to say...and obviously that's why he's on CNBC. (the USA was heading down the same path and all of Wall Street knew it by the mid 2000's.) policy makers have known about the signficance of the wintel operating system since the 1980's and the REAL money makers of Wall Street knew the profound implications of the "internet of things" long before anyone even understood the thing beyond being a communication system for the Government (i used it when i was in college...and it was quite fascinating to actually engage in its implications...even today as terrifying as the internet has become i never doubted its significance unlike all the professors who complained about us "very few" who used too much paper to print out all our research reports...which were spectacular because we could source everything now. talk about a bullshit detector. needless to say when Google came along i was on that thing like white on rice. LONG before it went public and was "declared worthless" by no less than Bill Gates AND Wall Street!!!!!) so sure...that internet thing continues to mint TRILLIONS even today...and i'm an old geezer now. "this is like 1929 going on thirty years" now and the bulk of the Union has been bankrupted because they never understood the internet's "peculiar underpinnings." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peculiar_Institution most still don't get it even today (I think i'm one actually)...though some do more than just well by it. http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/TWTR?source=search_general&s=twtr
Growing up in the 70-80s my mother told me to get into computers (we couldn't possibly afford one at the time and there was no public internet). She also apologized for having me and the times I would have to live through.
William, I believe you are one of the few that comletely (as much as one can anyhow) understand the reality of this dire situation.
In the Great Depression most people accepted the situation and came to believe it was going to be that way for the rest of their lives and well as for their children. Of course we know that was not the case. This time around, people seem to be under the belief that we will pull out of this dire situation in a few years and all will be well as the people in charge know what they are doing. I agre ewith James Howard K in his basic hypothese of a financial crash leading to social disorder and a reversion back to the basics in self sufficent small communities in rural areas.
As you are aware of the vocation I retired from, I have first hand experience of how people react when their homes and communities are devastated. Your comment regarding the bankrupt retires and the IMF hit a nerve that provoked me to log in and comment on your great work lately.
My experience with those people in those devastated areas, the smart ones were the first to realize "the calvary ain;t commin".
Keep laying the fire to em, bud , keep it hot for them!
I agree with you to the extent that the calvary ain't commin'. However, the idea that we can ever return the the small village way of life forgets we have nuke plants, nukes, and all the other wonder weapons that can wipe out mankind if not contained. That genie is out of the bottle and he ain't going back without making an unholy mess of things first.
There's really no other way, is there?
Well, the ONLY other way would be to "normalize" wealth, but that would be "socialism."
We, the wealthy* been living an illusion. "Retirement" was, only ever could have been, in the context that we've come to see it that is, a short-term thing.
* Chances are very high that most folks here are at least in the top 10% wealthy on a global basis. From http://www.gizmag.com/go/6571/
To be among the richest 10% of adults in the world required US$61,000 in assets, and more than US$500,000 was needed to belong to the richest 1%, a group which — with 37 million members worldwide — is far from an exclusive club.
To be among the richest 10% of adults in the world required US$61,000 in assets, and more than US$500,000 was needed to belong to the richest 1%, a group which — with 37 million members worldwide — is far from an exclusive club.
Again, ever seen how "retirement" is in non-wealthy countries, for the majority of humans on the planet?
makes you wonder if America is losing its faith in capitalism in the same way the soviets lost theirs in 'communism'
It has nothing to do with losing faith in an "ism", and everything to do with the people on top squeezing all the prosperity out of the system for themselves.
No, it's got to do with declining resources and ruling economic systems that are predicated on a highly flawed premise of perpetual growth on a finite planet.
Take away ALL of the 1% (37 million- see my post above) and spread that around. That will do NOTHING to resolve the FACT that we'd STILL be facing high debt levels (while the 1%-ers scoop up a chunk of that change it's really mostly based on transaction volume, it's regular people that see most of it [it's the cost of doing business- materials, for which get paid for extracting; transport, for which people get paid to do; factory work, for which people get paid to do; and all the other administrivia that is necessary]) AND declining resources while the global population continues to increase.
What America has now is a very long way from capitalism.
Go ahead, you can do it: call if Fascism.
That's the problem with big government: ruthless businessmen twist the power of government to their own benefit. Ever read about those nasty Robber Barons? They would not have been as successful had they not been able to use the power of the government to advance their own agendas to the detriment of their competitors. I suspect that's how it's always been, and that's why I prefer minimalist government. Or maybe I'm just jealous that I never had sufficient power to cause anyone to want to bribe me.
Capitalism on a finite planet was always going to be a problem. Capitalism is ALL about accumulating capital. Kind of hard to do when eventually our resources become insufficient to even place us in a subsistence way of life (and eventually not even that).
We failed to account for the Real World. Capitalism, therefore, was only ever a good classroom theory (just as "representtive democracy" was only ever a good classroom theory; sure, both are the best theories, but that doesn't mean they're ready to coincide with the Real World where there are multitudes of differing human ambitions and where the playing field is finite [planet]).
Is the universe finite too?
You keep making the same finite planet point.
Well, as long as people continue to speak, talk and act as if what we are looking at is defined as "capitalism" sure they will be misinformed AND hopeless. Ever since Lincoln usurped th power of the states and their right of self determination things have been going down hill. Todays hopelessness is a direct result of the federal government running roughshod over the entire nation and at the same time convincing americans that they are the best equipped to fix the very problems they have created. Name one positive fucking thing that the goverment does without first stomping on someone elses neck? To this very day the fact that we look for something positive out of government stats, programs and promises tells me that every generation suffers from the same affliction, gullibility. Hell, I would rather be governed by the first 435 Walmart greeters in Kentucky than this group of self serving cock holes, just the thought of a meteor slamming into D.C. gives me hope and if I can hope for something that remote I sure in the hell can believe in God.
By the way, "robber barrons" were allowed to do what they did at the behest of the government, you need to ask yourself, if what they did was illegal where was the enforcment and if was not illegal who sets the laws of the land. Lincoln was a robber barrons wet dream and a friend of the railroads for good reason, he was a lawyer for the railroads lng before he became a tyrant.
If we could only make the Real World recognize the greatness of Capitalism...
"Hell, I would rather be governed by the first 435 Walmart greeters in Kentucky than this group of self serving cock holes, just the thought of a meteor slamming into D.C. gives me hope and if I can hope for something that remote I sure in the hell can believe in God."
I'd thought that Wal-Mart no longer emplyed greeters. Maybe it's just in my area?
You are free to believe in whatever you wish. That's the beauty of the mind.
"By the way, "robber barrons" were allowed to do what they did at the behest of the government, you need to ask yourself, if what they did was illegal where was the enforcment and if was not illegal who sets the laws of the land. Lincoln was a robber barrons wet dream and a friend of the railroads for good reason, he was a lawyer for the railroads lng before he became a tyrant. "
POWER is, by default, tyrannical. Creating a position of power guarantees eventual corruption: people will eventually come to desire others to lie for them in order to garner favors (nothing could be more evident than with the Party Pussies).
"Ever since Lincoln usurped th power of the states and their right of self determination things have been going down hill."
That's a bit of fractured history. The majority of the nation fought to keep us one and out of the clutches of the British Empire--busy with the French sending troops to Mexico in happy anticipation of breaking up the one power capable of defying their combined power.
Everyone could benefit by studying the economic and social policies of the Confederate (slave) states. Under the guise of war measures, they imposed economic policies that would have made Lenin blanch.
You do of course know that break away movements started in the north long before the south decided to challenge Lincolns embargo of southern trade and forced their hand. I guess by keeping us "out of the clutches of the British Empire" you mean that we could all be slaves together and you assume that the south by trying to keep one tyrant out of their pockets would trade that for what? a british tyrant? Stop creating your own history by assuming that by the souths wanting to be able to trade with whom the fuck ever they wanted to that they would welcome the british in to their pants. Get over your love affair with lincoln, he only freed the southern slaves for political expediency and was a rascist in his own life. Jailing newpaper editors and federal judges that disagreed with him was a sure sign of a despot.
people at the top squeezing... is the whole point. their whole lives westerners have been told capitalism = good, communism = bad. good because it distributes wealth to hard working, capable, even a little lucky individuals. this hybrid socialist/fascist/capitalist Frankenstein monster isn't doing what it's supposed to, it's concentrating wealth and reducing opportunity (and incentive) for upward mobility. so what happens? westerners lose faith and motivation, reconcile themselves with their futures as slave laboring-weed-smoking-worker bees. the next step is to drop out. then, voila, you've answered why labor force participation is dropping like a rock.
Capitalism? We have never had capitalism. We have had statism for far longer than I have lived. Most people just refuse to see the truth of the matter.
As evidence I give you the Federal Reserve, Google, GM, Monsanto, the internet, welfare/SS/medicare/aid..., all the federal grants for this or that, the GI Bill, and on and on and on and on....
Free market my ass.
Boomers returning to, or remaining in, the work force to support their grandchildren, who have no intentions, or opportunities, to work.
My wife is from the Philippines. Multi-generational families living together. It's not because they're masochists, it's out of necessity. Most of the world is like this. It's starting to catch up with the "developed" countries as once abundant resources dwindle...
retirement is a relatively recent and soon to be obsolete phenomenon.
Although it depends on how you define "work," it was always a fiction really
each human age should have a role to play, it keeps us alive and sane and healthy
Soylent Green anyone? That is about the only way our boomer generation would be useful.
AS LONG AS EVERYBODY KEEPS EATING THE DOLLAR CHEEZEBURGERS AT MCDONALDS ALL IS FINE!!!
Just wanted to compliment you on your "Krugmanism". Well done.
How's that Social Security thing working out for ya?
Re: How's that Social Security thing working out for ya?
How many middle-aged people want their parents cut off from Social Security? What percentage of OldFarts would be out of the street or living with "the kids" if it wasn't for the SS welfare.
I think his point was SS wasnt enough and forcing retirees back into the workforce. I could be wrong..
You'll have to excuse NOTaREALmerican today. He apparently is off his meds and keeps ranting about some OldFarts, although he's demonstrated a lack of understanding about who they are. He's ascting as if he's pissed that he's stuck living in his parents' basement and wishes they'd just "go away". This isn't the only place on this thread that he's complained about OldFarts, and he's done it before. Again, excuse him. We all have bad days.
No offense taken. I'm pretty thick skinned. When presented with a contentious debate one can choose to be offended by it or learn something from it.
I like your thinking!
I was trying to point out that SS simply doesn't work and will never work. Perhaps something else will, but I can't see how government should be involved in it's funding. The moment you allow government to touch your money, you're screwed.
So instead of living with kids they are having the government steal from their kids in order to keep SS checks coming. Of course that comes with the fee of all the govermrnt jobs needed to support the scam also.
And all the better when that SS check helps pay for the mortgage on the McMansion, the tanker sized RV in the driveway and that nifty new pool addition in the back yard. After all, we have a right to enjoy our retirement!
Well, that money goes back into circulation, back to the banks...
At issue, however, is the embedded energy. How meaningfully was that energy used? Obviously, self-gratification is rather limited in meaning...
I'm trailer trash, and while I figure I'm nowhere close to living the life of the McMansion crowd my wife reminds me that our trash tailer home is better than a cardboard box (she's from Manila- knows was real poverty means): and, well, others around me have even more trashy trailers! (and then there's the McMansion... ah, but they help "pave the way" by paying higher property taxes, helps subsidize my trips on the road; I mentally thank them all the time as I smile)
My point is that Social Security doesn't work. It's nothing more than a government run Ponzi scheme. Initially sold to the public as a "widows and orphans" fund, it has since added "old age" pension and more recently "retirement pension" to it's vernacular as well. It's now nothing more than just another underfunded government pension fund. I think we've all seen how well that works out. And this one is the mother of them all. Especially if you add Medicare into the equation.
You ask: "How many middle-aged people want their parents cut off from Social Security?" I dare say very few of them would. They would not want to be saddled with the responsibility of family. That would intrude on their self-centered, immature, trendy lifstyles far too much.
You ask: "What percentage of "OldFarts" would be out on the streets...if it wasn't for the SS welfare?" I'll answer that with a question for you. How many "OldFarts" were out on the street before Social Security was legislated?
You ask: "What percentage of "OldFarts" would be...living with "the kids" if it wasn't for the SS welfare?" There's no doubt that there a great many more extended families living under the same roof before the advent of Social Security. In my book that's a good thing for a whole lot of reasons, not the least of which is that it would bring some modicum of maturity into "the kids" household.
It's truly disturbing to me that the American paradigm of self-sufficiency and individualism has given over so completely now to one in which the state is the first choice for aid or sustenance. Where once we looked to family, friends, neighbors, church and community for help or to provide help when needed, we now look only to the state. I can envision no more fertile ground for despotism and authoritarianism to grow and thrive.
Of course Ponzis don't work. Most, however, don't notice that our entire way of living is one big ponzi. Perpetual growth on a finite planet, never could happen, yet, we've based everything on it... So, all this other stuff is just fluff on the pig- we still don't see the pig.
Keep your Socialist kenyan born hands off my SS and Medicare! I paid for them, yeah like $1 in for every $3 u will pull out. Then theres all the "don't unplug Sharon, I mean Grandma, so she can be "Kept alive" for $5k a day for 2 years..
"What percentage of OldFarts would be out of the street or living with "the kids" if it wasn't for the SS welfare."
Um, that's how it works in most of the world, where there's really no such thing as "SS" or "welfare" (except perhaps in very, very small doses).
I'm not currently experiencing this, but one day I expect to. Rather than howling at the wind I shall plan for sailing with the tides, as for when it all collapses, which it one day will I shall be at least mentally prepared...
The five wealthiest, best pensioned, full benifits, in by 9 out by 3, lunch for an hour counties around Washington, DC are hard at work solving all these problems. ( Also the private contractors in the metro-DC area. Didn't want to leave out the 'private' sector. )
Less good the later you get in, like all ponzi schemes. Apply early and apply often!
Up vote for your avatar. Reminds me of one of my former jobs. Day I quit was the best day of my life because at least the pain stopped.
Good think those worthless OldFarts have their socialist medical care and socialist social-security welfare are they'd all be dead.
"That's not socialism, I'm entitled to that!"
Apparently, they are entitled to it just as much as corporations and banks are entitled to bailouts.
Neither approach is sustainable, hedge accordingly.
quote: "Good think those worthless OldFarts have their socialist medical care and socialist social-security welfare are they'd all be dead."
Come back after you've contributed 15% of your income for 50 years and say that.
Re: Come back after you've contributed 15% of your income for 50 years and say that.
You paid for your parent's generation, I'm paying for mine. That's what a scam is.
You are no more entitled to YOUR welfare than I am.
He's not a 'realmerican'
The funniest part is the boomers are savers, so they don't spend everything they make like the rest do.
Another "unintended" consequence of central planning...
"The funniest part is the boomers are savers, so they don't spend everything they make like the rest do."
That not really true, otherwise the 65+ would be working. Most boomers saved just a little bit of their income. The rest was spent on vacations, SUVs. boats, McMansions, vacation homes, Harleys, etc. The only group that really saved was the Japanese, but they ended up getting shafted.
"The only group that really saved was the Japanese, but they ended up getting shafted."
Well, they nationalistically invested in their infrastructure which finally is catching up to them.
You are correct in that boomers didn't save all that much. As a matter of fact, people need to get it through their heads (it's a trick that TPTB play on us all- make us think that there's a lot more available wealth to be had than there really is- keeps us competitive in working FOR them) that there are really very few wealthy folks in the world. As I noted above, stats for 2000 showed that to be in the world's top 10% wealth-wise you needed only have $61k in assets, $500k got you into the 1% club (of which there were some 37 million). I have more wealth than some 6.3 BILLION others on this planet!
Again what worroes me is the recent trending. The 65 and older has flattened out as the rest continue the down trend. I'm wondering if we are coming to the jobs saturation point? In other words...there are enough employed to meet demand or (products, services whatever). Thus the only clearing of jobs is via the job itself is no longer needed or the employee dies.
Technology taketh away. <---We are here.
Starting to understand the parabola function now?
hasnt walmart recently gotten rid of all greeters??? There are none here in the Windy City suburbs, better known as Obamaville. Imagine the real unemployment numbers if they let go all the Walmart greeters but I don't know if it is company wide or a regional thing. Oh yes I do shop there for ammo, great prices beat the big gun store chains everytime.
intergenerational war? bullish for sales of hemlock water dropwort. maybe the sardinians were onto something.
It's why I decided to go into farming. Young people will eventually realize that food is more important than the iCrap that they've been fed for all these many years... AND, I am sure I'll have willing apprentices... (someone has to inherit it all)
There goes the idea that the Participation rate is down because the elderly are retiring. Or just go to Home Depot or Walmart and see for yourself.
Using my current state as an example, the boomers are working the jobs and the kids are still in school. Or thinking about going back to school. And wondering why bother.
Looks like the red line may be rolling over as well....the BOTS are taking over!!!
MANY people miss this point. All that high-tech stuff ain't really "made" by humans as by robots. Sure, some engineers and final assembly folks, but not enough to support the volume of sales necessary for it all... (Henry Ford and, gasp!, Karl Marx mentioned a problem here)
This representation may be somewhat misleading. The graphs are drawn independently, but in reality they're interrelated. Also, the scales are different.
When overall labor participation declined by 4% over 12 years and the elder part of the labor force stayed put over the same period, their percentage of participation would become higher automatically, without their numbers actually rising.
So, there may be a 'cross' of generational divide, but the 'X' is flatter than depicted here for dramatical effect.
One of the numerous minor irritants I encounter almost daily is the use of graphs that do not start at zero. Looking at the graph as drawn, without examining the Y-axis numbers, makes the decline and ascent graphs look much more dramatic than they would if the graphs both had a Y-axis that started at zero. But hey, anything to grab attention.
Looks like another death cross
labor was never suppose to retire. a return to the norm will build the character of the nation. 80 year old women stocking shelves at walmart is the future strength of the usa.
After reading many post as poor Troy does not post to often but reads much. I’m a GEN X ER who bought the lie. I served my country fought in the first bankster of 1990 the Blood for Oil one. Then like a good sheep got married had some kids and started a career in construction, life was good perhaps to good. Exceled in what I did worked very very hard as that is what my father; part of the hated baby boomer class taught me. (I blame the Beatles for a majority of this crap.) At any rate the home building biz took a shit most everyone I know in that industry got smoked. Lots of us Gen x ers got hurt .
Back to my point this kids coming up don’t HAVE Shit to look forward to except putting on their MO Hawks and showing the aging demographics what it’s like to be back in the dark ages and the Obama Care F N Joke well let me tell you about that I have three step kids making a 10 bucks an hour at their entry level jobs at a call center bringing home about 1200 bucks a month after expenses I’m sure these kids will be more than willing to pay for the health care of the infirm.
Any way we live in interesting times.
And just when you think things are really bad you ought to see what it's like in other countries. Perhaps you got a glimpse in Gulf War I, though it was in no way as civilian-mingling as the latest grab-for-oil has been.
I've watched younger folks in Manila working their asses off. Hand-mixing cement. Hod carriers... hauling shit up rickety scaffolding in high humidity, full sun. It really matters where you were dropped from your mother's womb... Too many people have a sense of entitlement: well, yeah and those at the very top are suffering the most from this disease.
"I have three step kids making a 10 bucks an hour at their entry level jobs at a call center bringing home about 1200 bucks a month after expenses"
There are 750 MILLION people in India living on $0.50/day, that's $187.50 TOTAL PER YEAR! And, 2/3 of the world's population lives on $3/day or less.
Well you and your cohort are the ones who voted for the loser. So shut up and eat your lunch.
Not sure what your election ballot looked like, but all I saw on mine was losers.
soory mose stuck
in two words- NO FUTURE
No! As long as you're breathing there's a "future." Just because it ain't what it used to be doesn't mean that it won't exist.
One thing is absolutely certain: we're going to have to drastically alter our perceptions.
Time to get a few million undocumented aliens documented STAT so they can float that 'boomer' boat.
That should add a noticeable "schwing" to that chart.
Boomer to bussines: Hire me because i am skilled and that makes business sence and I want my cake. Boomer to govt: I'll vote for an unafordable social security ponzi scheme because I want to eat it too...
Talk about capitalizing the profits and socialising the losses.....
More like Boomer to business, I'm already on Socialized medical care, and are the GOP base; hire me and no Obamacare cost to you, plus I need to supplement my cat food diet. "Would you like fries with that?" At least my drug use is prescription, unlike blunts.....
Boomer to business.....I have real skills in verbal & written communication, as well as people skills. I am healthy because I have stayed active, engaged, & informed. I have a strong work ethic, show up on time, know how to dress & act in a business appropriate manner, and will be a real asset to your company.
This is wrong. But who cares? You and me? We pass this responsibility to the government. But governments survive by growth, through debt, natural resources and/or human resources. Those serving in governments machinery care to get their works done more than anything else. No one will need to answer whatever happen to our next generation as long as due process are followed.
I'd like to see the chart that shows employment for teens. Never seen one, eh?
Who do you think occupies the brunt of all the low-paying jobs, like burger joints and mall stores?
Calculate the employment within that area.
I'm betting it's dropping, because businessmen would rather have desperate people over 60, rather than some snot-nosed brat flipping them off, working for them.
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