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Did Goldman Just Kill The Music? - "The S&P500 Is Now Overvalued By Almost Any Measure"

Tyler Durden's picture





 

"As long as the music is playing, you've got to get up and dance.... We’re still dancing."

      - Chuck Prince, July 2007

Late last night the music may have just skipped a major beat after Goldman released a Friday evening note that is perhaps the most bearish thing to come out of Goldman's chief strategist David Kostin in over a year, (and who incidentally just repeated what we said most recently a week ago in "Stocks Are More Expensive Now Than At Their 2007 Peak"). To wit:

S&P 500 valuation is lofty by almost any measure, both for the aggregate market (15.9x) as well as the median stock (16.8x). We believe S&P 500 trades close to fair value and the forward path will depend on profit growth rather than P/E expansion. However, many clients argue that the P/E multiple will continue to rise in 2014 with 17x or 18x often cited, with some investors arguing for 20x. We explore valuation using various approaches. We conclude that further P/E expansion will be difficult to achieve. Of course, it is possible. It is just not probable based on history. 

 

The current valuation of the S&P 500 is lofty by almost any measure, both for the aggregate market as well as the median stock: (1) The P/E ratio; (2) the current P/E expansion cycle; (3) EV/Sales; (4) EV/EBITDA; (5) Free Cash Flow yield; (6) Price/Book as well as the ROE and P/B relationship; and compared with the levels of (6) inflation; (7)
nominal 10-year Treasury yields; and (8) real interest rates. Furthermore, the cyclically-adjusted P/E ratio suggests the S&P 500 is currently 30% overvalued in terms of (9) Operating EPS and (10) about 45% overvalued using As Reported earnings.

Cue David Tepper to bring out even bigger greater fools who do believe in his 20x PE multiple "thesis." Cause if 20x works, why not 40x, or 60x, or moar?

* * *

Kostin's full "market is now overvalued" note:

We believe S&P 500 currently trades close to fair value and the forward path of the market will depend on the trajectory of profits rather than further expansion of the forward P/E multiple from the current 15.9x. We forecast a modest price gain of roughly 3% to our year-end 2014 target of 1900. We expect S&P 500 will climb to 2100 by the end of 2015 and reach 2200 by the end of 2016 representing a gain of 20% over the next three years.

However, many clients argue that the multiple will continue to expand in 2014 leading to another year of strong US equity returns. A forward multiple of 17x or 18x is often cited, with others suggesting 20x is reasonable given the strengthening US economy and low interest rates. Many on the buy-side have year-end 2014 targets between 2000 and 2200 reflecting a price gain of 9% to 20%, well above our more modest projection.

The current valuation of the S&P 500 is lofty by almost any measure, both for the aggregate market as well as the median stock: (1) The P/E ratio; (2) the current P/E expansion cycle; (3) EV/Sales; (4) EV/EBITDA; (5) Free Cash Flow yield; (6) Price/Book as well as the ROE and P/B relationship; and compared with the levels of (6) inflation; (7) nominal 10-year Treasury yields; and (8) real interest rates. Furthermore, the cyclically-adjusted P/E ratio suggests the S&P 500 is currently 30% overvalued in terms of (9) Operating EPS and (10) about 45% overvalued using As Reported earnings.

Reflecting on our recent client visits and conversations, the biggest surprise is how many investors expect the forward P/E multiple to expand to 17x or 18x. For some reason, many market participants believe the P/E multiple has a long-term average of 15x and therefore expansion to 17-18x seems reasonable. But the common perception is wrong. The forward P/E ratio for the S&P 500 during the past 5-year, 10-year, and 35- year periods has averaged 13.2x, 14.1x, and 13.0x, respectively. At 15.9x, the current aggregate forward P/E multiple is high by historical standards.

Most investors are surprised to learn that since 1976 the S&P 500 P/E multiple has only exceeded 17x during the 1997-2000 Tech Bubble and a brief four-month period in 2003-04 (see Exhibit 1). Other than those two episodes, the US stock market has never traded at a P/E of 17x or above.

A graph of the historical distribution of P/E ratios clearly highlights that outside of the Tech Bubble, the market has only rarely (5% of the time) traded at the current forward multiple of 16x (see Exhibit 2).

The elevated market multiple is even more apparent when viewed on a median basis. At 16.8x, the current multiple is at the high end of its historical distribution (see Exhibit 3).

The multiple expansion cycle provides another lens through which we view equity valuation. There have been nine multiple expansion cycles during the past 30 years. The P/E troughed at a median value of 10.5x and peaked at a median value of 15.0x, an increase of roughly 50%. The current expansion cycle began in September 2011 when the market traded at 10.6x forward EPS and it currently trades at 15.9x, an expansion of 50%. However, during most (7 of the 9) of the cycles the backdrop included falling bond yields and declining inflation. In contrast, bond yields are now increasing and inflation is low but expected to rise.

We addressed equity valuation using the Fed model and interest rate sensitivity in our December 6th US Weekly Kickstart. Simply put, the earnings yield gap between the S&P 500 and ten-year Treasury yields currently equals about 325 bp. Goldman Sachs Economics forecasts bond yields will creep higher to 3.25% by year-end 2014, a rise of just 25 bp. If the earnings yield gap remains unchanged, then the ‘fair value’ multiple according to the Fed model would be 15.2x at year-end 2014. The implied index level would be 1900 assuming our 2015 EPS forecast of $125. However, bond yields could rise by more than we expect and hit 3.75% while the yield gap could narrow to perhaps 275 bp. The resulting EPS yield of 6.5% represents a forward P/E of 15.4x implying a S&P 500 level of 1923. Exhibit 4 of the Dec 6th Kickstart shows valuation using various yields and yield gaps.

Incorporating inflation into our valuation analysis suggests S&P 500 is slightly overvalued. When real interest rates have been in the 1%-2% band, the P/E has averaged 15.0x. Nominal rates of 3%-4% have been associated with P/E multiples averaging 14.2x, nearly two points below today. As noted earlier, S&P 500 is overvalued on both an aggregate and median basis on many classic metrics, including EV/EBITDA, FCF, and P/B (see Exhibits 5-8).

 

* * *

Then again, this is Goldman, where dodecatuple reverse psychology in recos is the norm. If Goldman has just gone bearish, it would logically suggest it is very short and is hoping for a crash. But it could also mean it is hoping its clients panic and dump so collapsing trade volumes finally soar and Goldman makes at least some money on commissions, or is waiting for a plunge in stocks so it can put its massive cash hoard to use, or simply planting the seeds of the next Lehman-like event (now over 5 years later), which would serve as the periodic reset of what once used to be a business cycle? We are sure to find out soon because whatever happens, there will be volatility.

 


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Sat, 01/11/2014 - 13:50 | Link to Comment stock trout
stock trout's picture

Quick summary: Goldman is now overall short the market. Please start selling. 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 13:55 | Link to Comment economics9698
economics9698's picture

5 years and 2 months, ah fuck missed it by a couple of months.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:41 | Link to Comment kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

It's called covering your ass.  The Lloyd must be getting nervous.

Overvalued?  Well surprise, surprise Goobers.  Welcome to the party five years late.

If rational expectations do return, remember that some animals are more equal than others.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:43 | Link to Comment flacon
flacon's picture

I don't know... I have SPY puts and I am scared shitless. Try it some time... buy puts on SPY and watch your digital wealth get vapourized. Even the Fed is trying to tame this BEAST. Friday's close at the high of day is typical, I bought some calls at 3:58pm as protection. Could we see "all time highs" in the next day or two trading? Probably. 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:51 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

The retail investor isn't even in yet. When the retail investor capitulates and goes all in, then the market crashes. Correction, ie -10%,?.... probably, so that the big boys can get back in. But a crash, i.e. >40%,? Not on the horizon.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:38 | Link to Comment SoilMyselfRotten
SoilMyselfRotten's picture

Must be time to harvest the Muppets

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:31 | Link to Comment Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

So, GS wants my shares - Go long?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:12 | Link to Comment knukles
knukles's picture

We already know they're long a piss loada gold in the house account, no?

Go figure

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:07 | Link to Comment Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Of course the major banking houses are long gold.  Look which asset class rebounded first in the Fall of '08, long ahead of the stock market bottom in the Spring of '09.  

Downside risk 30% - 45%, say GS.  That would be quite a fall.  When would Ol' Yellen start hollerin' to Un-Taper?  When GS [ticker symble] fell 20%?  30%?

There is price fixing.  The Fed is engaged in massive monetary central planning.  Gold is the only money that can neither be destroyed or created by the rougue central banks which maraude the global economy.

- David Stockman

The central banks use a fallacious model to predict what should be done and the banking houses dance until the music stops.  

And the party is over.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:19 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

I don't know David Stockman other than what I read. He seems sincere, but he has been crying "FIRE" for many years now. One day he'll be right ... just not sure when, and if I will still be around to congratulate him.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 20:32 | Link to Comment zaphod
zaphod's picture

I'm confused, when the squid says to sell gold it means I should buy and when the squid says to buy gold it means I should sell. Does this mean that I should buy stocks now?!?

Or is the squid trying to double bluff me?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 23:38 | Link to Comment PT
PT's picture

They need someone to buy more CDSs so they can make some more synthetic CDOs.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 08:47 | Link to Comment Bindar Dundat
Bindar Dundat's picture

We are all missing the big screw job here.

The big Banks have excess reserves of  about $1.5Trillion.  When taper starts they scream " the end" and watch the  market collapse -- then they will start buying up the goodies.

With their excess reserves ( paid for by the taxpayers )  they will go in and by the blue chips at pennies on the dollar and it will be mission acomplished.  

The banksters will finally own it all.

Nice trick if they can pull it off.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:30 | Link to Comment Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

So, GS wants my shares - Go long?

I know, it makes no sense, but they seem to be nearly 100% contrary as an indicator.  Could this time be a head-fake?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:39 | Link to Comment economics9698
economics9698's picture

Even if the DJIA booms it means nothing if inflation booms faster.  You still lose.  Gold.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:04 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

Like I said, the retail investor really isn't in yet. The muppets are not yet in the studio. Go back and look at volumes. Volumes are half of what they were in 2007. If the big boys blow up the set now they won't hurt enough people, so what is the point in that. And as much as ZHers hate to admit it, me included, look at capital flows. Pension funds need returns and they aren't getting returns in the bond market. Or, if you are an institutional investor in Japan or Europe where are you going to invest? I would still pick the US over both those basket cases. But who really has a bloody clue? Just that I got nuttin else to do.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 18:09 | Link to Comment TuPhat
TuPhat's picture

I used to be a retail investor.  I am not in this Mock Market and don't want to be.  Even Muppets like me don't want to get burned over and over again.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:09 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

And that is kind of my point. The retail investor is not back, so the market has further to go. TuPhat, you might be able to resist the next move to 17K or 18K or 20K on the Dow. But for lots of I-was-burned-in-the-past "investors"/traders, the temptation will be too hard to resist as those mile-markers are overtaken. And as the sheeple flock back into the market, then, and only then, will it crash. That is a part of history that is worth noting.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 20:58 | Link to Comment mvsjcl
mvsjcl's picture

So, let me see if I got this straight. If we stay out of the market, we lose. If we go in the market, we lose. Is that the gist of it?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 22:24 | Link to Comment DirkDiggler11
DirkDiggler11's picture

You just nailed the golden rule do the stock market for the past 15 years. "Heads they win, tails you lose". The stock market is rigged worse that a carney game on the midway. In fact, you have a better chance if actually winning playing Black Jack or roulette in Vegas.

The easiest way to beat them at their own game is to continue to stack Gold, Silver, Lead, and Food as much as you can afford each month. Starve the beast so in the end the HFT bots just fight between themselves. We are damn near that point right now, just look at the volume drop over the past year especially.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 22:56 | Link to Comment Lore
Lore's picture

That's a key point. Awareness of manipulation is finally reaching critical mass.  It's a MMORPG, not a market.  Retail participants are SUPPLANTED by insiders and algos.  Real capital is flowing elsewhere.  The real market isn't buying Greenspan's imaginary "Wealth Effect."  What's amazing is that it took this long. 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 21:15 | Link to Comment ebear
ebear's picture

"I used to be a retail investor."

So did I. Now I'm a retail short seller...LOL!

However..... (pause and italics for emphasis)

I would never attempt to short blue chips or major indices, especially with puts.

OTOH, there's a lot of first rate garbage out there selling at ridiculous multiples where the float is too small to attract the big fish.  The retail investor may not be in the majors as yet, but they're up to their eyeballs in the usual get rich quick schemes.  I cite Tesla as one example (no position) but there are many others.   When these suckers blow they go down hard because unlike the majors, they are too small to bail.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 10:22 | Link to Comment irishlink
irishlink's picture

How many people have lost on Cramer's pick WPRT this past year. Now down over 50% from high. I have never seen such churning in a market. Gold and silver has also wrecked portfolio's over the past year. Will the shale/cracking bubble be the next casualty? I believe so , as some of the estimates and valuations will kill off the marginal players.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:39 | Link to Comment TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Wherefore art thou horizon?  Remember the chart where the Great Depression runup was superimposed over the last few years, and they are shockingly similar?  Well, if the trend continues D-day is 1/14, as in Tuesday.  Black Tuesday?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 18:10 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

I'm positioned for a move lower from Tuesday forward. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself since the idiots in charge never learn from it. 

 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 21:47 | Link to Comment ebear
ebear's picture

I'm goona go out on a limb here and state that this time it really IS different, but not for 1999 reasons, where the future was so bright you needed welding goggles just to look at it.  No. What's different this time is the counter weight to equities simply isn't there.  I'm talking about all classes of income from govt. paper to munis to MBS and even junk.  Blue chip debt may be an exception, but that's truly a picker's market.  Most of them will also take a hit somewhere down the road.

So what's left, if you HAVE to be in, and your main concern is not earnings per se, but simply owning something that will survive, such as a major producer of consumer goods like J&J (no position) that's been around forever and that when it's all over will still be there.  Granted it could take a while, but in the meantime you don't have to sell unless you're leveraged, and you can add to positions when those who are blow up.  You can't say that about bonds where you have reinvestment risk, to say nothing of the very real chance of default. Also, as the rest of the world crumbles, money will increasingly flow into the US seeking, not returns, but simply relative safety, so there's another driver to consider.

 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 23:09 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

I have been sitting on the sidelines for some time and yes, it galls my ass to have missed the moves higher, but I just cannot bring myself to participate in the irrational exuberance (i.e. mickey mouse) markets of late. Just waiting for the markets to display the Rastafarian Death Rattle...  

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 00:27 | Link to Comment ebear
ebear's picture

Just to be clear, my rationale for why the markets will move higher (or at worst sideways with the occasional downdraft) is not a rationale for being IN the market.  On the contrary, I've been on the sidelines for several years now and quite comfortable with being left behind.  I don't see it as my right to make money in the market, even if I have in the past.  Like anything else I've done, when it stops being fun, I give it a rest.   This thing stopped being fun in 2008, but I guess that goes without saying.  Today, as I mentioned elsewhere, I'm focused on shorting crap companies, mainly because it's such easy pickings.  When that no longer works, I'll find something else to do.  Maybe trade corn futures or open a home for wayward girls... heh.  The future, as always, is a blank slate.  The only thing I know for sure is that time is the only thing I really have, and for that reason I use it as wisely as possible. (posting to ZH notwithstanding)

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 07:02 | Link to Comment Hindenburg...Oh Man
Hindenburg...Oh Man's picture

Wasn't there some data presented recently (I think on ZH), by a contributer, that the retail investor is in fact "in"?  In other words, the article made the argument that is somewhat of a myth that there are legions of retail investors sitting on cash waiting for the right moment. The "retail investor on the sidelines" and "cash on the sidelines" is another myth perpetuated by the mainstream financial media in order to encourage the masses to BTATFH. 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:54 | Link to Comment Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

goldman bearish publicly?   that means they got inside scoop on more fed buying and going long.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 20:42 | Link to Comment BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

Listen not to what they say but watch carefully that which they do, eh?

Sounds pretty Goldman(ish) to me... 

I am staying out of this shell-game-three-card-monte-shit-show-cluster-fuck-chinese-firedrill-goat-screw-circle-jerk-ponzi-prison-rape.

Mon, 01/13/2014 - 22:52 | Link to Comment InjectTheVenom
InjectTheVenom's picture

Your last sentence ... very Carlin-esque !! +1000

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 20:38 | Link to Comment beachdude
beachdude's picture

Flacon, did you buy my SPY Jan14 175 Calls? That's precisely when I sold them. Lol, small world, isn't it?

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 10:48 | Link to Comment RSDallas
RSDallas's picture

I agree Flacon.  The  Fed has learned that it cannot jaw bone the market down without panic and they do not want to flagerantly create the percepton that they are in control of the equity market so they are brining in the squid.  I really do not see the so called retail investor's returning other than a company 401k.  The lack of retail investor participation is what will eventually crush the banks and insurance companies again.  They avoided the pain in 2008-09 because of "mark to fairy land accounting", but you cannot pull that off with equities.  

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:56 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

Return of rational expectations, 20 years.

My life expectancy going forward, 20 years.

Think I'll flip a coin.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:28 | Link to Comment Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

Rosengren and Evans cronies, as well as members of US Congress, are out of the market too. Bernanke filed paperwork to open a hedge fund, Bernank Short LP.

Please start selling.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:26 | Link to Comment Count of Lastovo
Count of Lastovo's picture

Only if you can turn those short on a dime.    Goldman will know in advance when Yellen will untaper and print more.    So they may go short for the next few weeks but they will be long on the day Yellen Fed Reserve announces QE increased to 100 billion per month.    

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:58 | Link to Comment Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

The Fed will hit its unemployment target of 6.5% next month, declare a victory, and continue tapering.

You will see $0 before you will see $100 billion/month. The Fed wants out from QE before everyone realizes QE is nothing more but a psychological placebo and a wealth transfer mechanism.

Pumping up bank Excess Reserves parabolic (QE) does not work because no matter how much money the Fed injects into the system, the velocity of money adjusts reciprocally down.

Velocity of M2 Money Stock
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M2V?cid=32242

Real GDP is a function of Velocity and M2. The Fed can pump up M2, but the Fed politburo cannot control Velocity.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:59 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

So who is going to buy US Debt and where will rates go? As much as they would like to taper, they have no choice but to continue, whether is the guise of QE of through some other mechanism. We are already hearing overtones of QE5 due to Obamacare. 

 

 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:27 | Link to Comment Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

Re: "So who is going to buy US Debt"

This is a very good question.

Japan has been buying EU debt, I guess they can switch to buying US debt (when US rates are higher) before the Fed restarts QE5 (after ~50% stock market plunge and after GS covers their short positions).

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:52 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

don't know why you're getting down arrowed...think you're spot on. A strong dollar does support high p/e's so in that sense this article is incorrect. a strong dollar is not good for equities vis a vis "creating loan demand" so it's hard to say how profits will do...obviously Sears took it on the chin this week as Americans simply scaled back on all purchases dramatically. "the stong dollar buys debt" basically. if resource prices crash...and i'm talking something dramatic here...then one of the few assets you have to protect yourself with is treasury debt. talk about "Samurai Bonds." Treasuries are backed up by the full force of the United States Navy...let alone a nuclear fleet that's running flat out right now just to stay cash flow positive. "they have negative rates" in that industry as they say. with Warren Buffet now going all in on wind farms in Iowa...good luck competing with that. that pennies a kilowatt hour profitably. "the means of production" can be moved...to the "means of distribution" too. top of that list is Duluth, Minnesota. If they start building out wind farms in that State energy costs will drop to near zero.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 21:38 | Link to Comment BeanusCountus
BeanusCountus's picture

Not sure either. But i think they have to concentrate on buying their own debt first.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 01:34 | Link to Comment HardlyZero
HardlyZero's picture

And the wargames in the China Sea where 1/3 oil moves across.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:25 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

The two largest holders of US debt are the Federal Reserve and the Social Security Trust Fund. Add other internal government agencies and the government itself owns the majority of its own debt. Sound screwy? Well it is. The money is all just electronic and gets moved around differnt accounts to suit the occassion. This also gives rise to the possibility of the government just "forgiving" all that debt. You never know what the bastards are up to.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 23:39 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Insurance companies have to raise capital too. Lest we forget they were the ones that got "bombarded" in 2008. "Taper fears" could cause them to raise capital the only legal way they can right now...by buying treasuries. That includes European insurers...as well as Chinese ones I might add. I see nothing right now to prevent yields from not merely retesting their all time record lows...but doing so "smartly" from here.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:55 | Link to Comment Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

classic strategy by wall street.  publicly go long a few million, but spread a bigger position short.

 

Misdirection, misinformation.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:27 | Link to Comment johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

Since we are now way, way, way over 600 days since the last 20% + correction, this bitch will drop 40% at least before Yellen puts the Fed into Hyperdrive and hyperinflates the dollar into Yen status. 1021 is my support level call for 2014 before the panic causes the overreaction.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:32 | Link to Comment Wait What
Wait What's picture

What it really means: Goldman is telling everyone it's short so its muppets will sell their shares and it will ride the Fed's balance sheet to 5 trillion and 2200 S&P. Untaper! Untaper!! Behaviorism 101, kids.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:38 | Link to Comment humtum
humtum's picture

good dost lan torla

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Sat, 01/11/2014 - 20:47 | Link to Comment Snoopy the Economist
Snoopy the Economist's picture

Kick this fuckhead the hell out.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:34 | Link to Comment humtum
humtum's picture

the state department also used the warning to highlight the fact that a Russian law, much criticized by rights groups,

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Sat, 01/11/2014 - 18:18 | Link to Comment ABG LINE
ABG LINE's picture

No. In other words, BUY. S&P 2200 here we come. Silly muppet.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 21:59 | Link to Comment DirkDiggler11
DirkDiggler11's picture

I disagree. Whatever Goldman says, do the opposite. Goldman says stocks are over-valued, then close out all of your shorts and go long the market, use Triple levered ETF's even. The Squid has bought and paid for every key politician and banker in Washington. Of course Goldman has the inside track. What everybody else doesn't know is "Old Yeller" just told Goldman she was going to set the printing presses on such a high speed they will catch fire. Of course she might have mentioned negative rates from the Fed on overnight deposits as well. Whatever the scenario, Goldman only says something to play to the advantage of the Vampire Squid. So, if you want to make money, go long the market after the initial drop resulting from their "research", then use your profits from the trade to stack your gold and silver high.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 22:29 | Link to Comment bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

I think Goldman does this to get stuff they want on sale, just like with gold. They say sell, everyone sells, then they buy after the crash.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 07:53 | Link to Comment Colonel
Colonel's picture

Another Goldman head fake.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 23:42 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"sell Goldman Sachs" seems to be the message.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 22:15 | Link to Comment DirkDiggler11
DirkDiggler11's picture

EDIT - Duplicate post, my apologies

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 22:23 | Link to Comment bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

Looking forward to the markets Monday, should be entertaining.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 13:56 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

    I wish the squid would quit using mean and median in their disinformation playbook. It is what it is. http://www.multpl.com/

  Overvalued, and Q-4 earnings are revealing such...

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 08:10 | Link to Comment malikai
malikai's picture

I see your USDJY short from the 27th came in, twice!

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:09 | Link to Comment Hongcha
Hongcha's picture

They are positioned short.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:02 | Link to Comment order66
order66's picture

Typical Goldman deuche move looking to get long(er).

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:02 | Link to Comment Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Get ready for a "muppetting".  We're going to have a melt up after Yellen announces a reversal to the :tapir:

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:16 | Link to Comment Dagny Taggart
Dagny Taggart's picture

lol - You read my mind Colonel. But I think that's "muppeteering."

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:51 | Link to Comment Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Works for me too.  Either way heeeeeeeeere's Kermit!

http://fwtc.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/kermit-noooo.jpg

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:08 | Link to Comment Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

I'm saving that one.  Thanks!

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:04 | Link to Comment buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

now i know it's going higher

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:07 | Link to Comment Conax
Conax's picture

The ol PumpnDump from our friends at Goldman Sucks.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:59 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

seems convoluted. certainly not a catalyst for trading which is where Goldman makes there money. not that they've had a single catalyst to engage in any trading 5 years running now. they've missed this entire rally actually..and may in fact have been a primary driver of it by being massively short for "couple of years too long." Again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_trading

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:12 | Link to Comment jo6pac
jo6pac's picture

Need a little help with a computre problem most favorites were wiped out. I need the job lost site some one has posted here in the past.

Thanks in advance.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:22 | Link to Comment frankthomaswhite59
Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:59 | Link to Comment jo6pac
jo6pac's picture

Yes, thats it. In tranferring favorites to my laptop the sites I'm on daily were wiped out. If i didn't have my tin-foil-hat I would think nsa had a hand in it;)

 

Thanks

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 20:37 | Link to Comment groundedkiwi
Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:22 | Link to Comment Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Simply put we can't stuff any moar QE in the stock market balloon at this speed. She's gonna blow if we do. Another mint Mr. Creosote, it is waffer thin (75B).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aczPDGC3f8U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhbHTjMLN5c

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:17 | Link to Comment Johnny Cocknballs
Johnny Cocknballs's picture

There's an awful lot of idle cash laying around that can yet be malinvested.

The trouble is that the rug will be pulled out, suddenly, one day.

 

Goldman deserves its own Stuxnet.

 

 

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 05:15 | Link to Comment EuropeanBankster
EuropeanBankster's picture

Nope.. no cash lying around. The money on your savings account is already at work, probably in credit, where your bank can get decent carry.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 05:17 | Link to Comment EuropeanBankster
EuropeanBankster's picture

..

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:19 | Link to Comment Count of Lastovo
Count of Lastovo's picture

Don't overthink.   When Yellen prints more, stocks will go up in nominal terms.     

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:19 | Link to Comment slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

Bank bailouts  = print money, pump, now dump, then buy gold.

Nice way to recapitalise, steal thirce from your customrs

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:20 | Link to Comment ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

What?

They didn't call the S&P overvalued in 2010 when it broke 1,000?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:21 | Link to Comment giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

You have to give Goldman some credit for thoroughly confusing everyone with their "public" guidance, including ZH.

The usual take on ZH is that don't do what Godlman says but do what they are probably doing behind the scenes which is the complete opposite of what they recommend in notes/statements to public.

so in this case, that would be go ahead and buy SP500 after reading this note, however, now ZH and many of the commenters here are saying this actually means Goldman really is short the market and is now releasing this to induce the sell-off.

Which is it? Don't know?  Well that's where their evil genius trumps even ZH's normally solid contrarian logic.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:03 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

Simon and Garfunkel, The Boxer

Even ZH can be guilty of selective logic.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:01 | Link to Comment Johnny Cocknballs
Johnny Cocknballs's picture

I hear what you're saying but you're assuming Goldman analysts actually have some reliable predictive capacity apart from their own ability to collude with other banks and maybe the fed and manipulate....

 

never mind.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:12 | Link to Comment disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

again..."not a catalyst to trade." they've missed the entire war. now that it's over "just thought we'd chime in"? very rare for them to issue a blanket sell order for the market. Unheard of actually...especially if you are short. They could wind up losing a massive amount of investment advisory business if they're wrong. http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/MS?source=search_general&s=ms 61 billion dollar market cap...that's pretty nice. GS is hitting all times high here: http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/GS?source=search_general&s=gs sound like a good time to sell that thing that's fer sure.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:00 | Link to Comment PlausibleDenial
PlausibleDenial's picture

"Princess Bride"...Clearly

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 23:21 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

Alan Greenspan — ' I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant'

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 09:04 | Link to Comment bwh1214
bwh1214's picture

Nope.  Your missing a crucial step.  Goldman makes a call, the call happens but even stronger then they call for, in this case the S&P will crash.    I'm sure they have been pulling cash during the last year.  And then, after the crash, you do what Goldman is doing and buy.  They make the call that causes the crash in public, but actually make their move in private.  I'm expecting a major correction if not a crash as a result of this and then I'll start to buy a little after a 10% pull back, continuing to buy at a trickle till 25% down, then more aggressivly from 25% below current levels to where ever it ends up.  I'll be buying two on lower bollinger band crosses and selling one on upper crosses. That's my take.  Its how I played the pull back in '11 through Dow 15000, then I pulled all but a small amount out. I'll be getting back in slowly once it crosses the other way.  We'll see how it works out.  I'll look foolish if it keeps going up, but I'm having a hard time believing that will be the case.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:24 | Link to Comment Sufiy
Sufiy's picture

We were just wondering whether Banks have already unloaded shares to retail or not yet and they need another week? Now just wait for a lot of screaming about Jobs dissater from Monday:


Peter Schiff: Gold & Dollar - An Imaginary Recovery Does Not Create Real Jobs


 Huge miss in Jobs numbers with only 74k created vs estimated well north of 200k can not be just dismissed as a blip in the data. Peter Schiff discusses that FED can not really Taper now, there is no real recovery and FED does not have the exit strategy. Gold is waking up to these developments. What if this data is the real state of the economy? Once people will realise how wrong is the expectation about the recovery Gold will go straight up. COMEX data shows that Gold shorts will be in trouble very soon.   Junior miners are finding the bids these days. McEwen Mining and TNR Gold had a very good week and huge short position on McEwen Mining will be driving the price in case if Gold will confirm its break out next week. http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/peter-schiff-gold-dollar-imaginary.h... Gold Breakout: COMEX Gold Warehouse Registered Gold Inventory at 93 to 1 GLD, MUX, TNR.v, GDX

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 06:57 | Link to Comment lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

If Beck is on to this, millions of people are.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:28 | Link to Comment silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

you cant stay overbought forever..all of this exuburance can leave in one tradng session..

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:29 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

History? History? Don't talk to me about history. History? paraphrased from Jim Mora

When was it in history that we had a debt of $17T. Or a Fed balance sheet of $4T? Or corrupt governments on a global basis?

Party on dudes, while the music is still playing, because the fat lady's voice is just warming up and I understand she is in fine form.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:42 | Link to Comment ptoemmes
ptoemmes's picture

Wonder if they would hazard a guess how overvalued Goldman stock is?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:42 | Link to Comment NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

You should ALWAYS do the opposite of anything Goldman says. My guess is that they want to suck in some bears on the short side, then take the market higher one more time on short covering. There simply are not enough bears to fuel the market higher.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 14:52 | Link to Comment Dollar Bill Hiccup
Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

FED looks at these charts and says, "See, the mkt is not overvalued. When valuations are higher than the highest point on the chart, then we could say that the mkt is overvalued. Which we won't say. Ever."

I'm serious. That is what they think.

When Mediocrity Failed.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:10 | Link to Comment stantheman
stantheman's picture

Too many people think a major correction and/or crash is coming. Not going to happen. The correction and/or crash will happen when you least expect it.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:43 | Link to Comment SoilMyselfRotten
SoilMyselfRotten's picture

The market being at an all time high sort of implies that, does it not?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 18:58 | Link to Comment GotNuttin'todo
GotNuttin'todo's picture

The Dow is not at an all time high in euros. That might sound dumb, but historically, markets are in a bubble when they are at all time highs in all major currencies.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:17 | Link to Comment Iam Yue2
Iam Yue2's picture

The Doors - When The Music's Over.

http://youtu.be/jLAr-WlxMZY

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:22 | Link to Comment rp1
rp1's picture

But aren't they going to tell us the remaining measures and give us their target?  Hello?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:42 | Link to Comment Walt D.
Walt D.'s picture

20X P/E = 5%. So as long as the 10 year Treasury is trading for substantially less than 5%, 20x P/E is not out of line. Now when QE ends...???

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:24 | Link to Comment madbraz
madbraz's picture

Sp500 div yield is 1.9% and the 10 yr yields 2.9%.

P/E is 19 right now, anyone who believes operating earnings number and uses it for P/E is either foolish or has an agenda.

Reported earnings are $91. The multiple is at record highs already. The multiple should be below 10 as growth prospects are non-existent, not to mention profit margins.

Fair value without the NY Fed = 500 to 800. We will get there in the next 3 years, certainly.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 18:54 | Link to Comment besnook
besnook's picture

fundamentals shmundamental. this takedown is like club technomusic. the beat behind the noise is driving the noise creating a clear melodic pattern. the ten year is at historic equilibrium levels as expressed in mortgage rates just under 5%(50s-60s). it is obviously not sustainable....yet. so they will take it down again hoping their models project reality forecasting the next "recovery" can be sustained at a higher level of support in bond yields. of course there are all sorts of rumsfeld conundrums on the path to this mathematical utopia.

we are fucked.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 15:58 | Link to Comment AGoldhamster
AGoldhamster's picture

With everybody and his/her CB buying indices now, and all numbers and stats stuff fucked and worthless - there's of course also no limit anymore for P/E.

Re GS's calls - some right, some wrong - who cares anymore what these (and other) idiots are calling for.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:06 | Link to Comment Joenobody12
Joenobody12's picture


"The S&P500 Is Now Overvalued By Almost Any Measure"

How about measure the P in 2020 dollars ?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:10 | Link to Comment yogibear
yogibear's picture

Expect average PEs to be higher than the DOT COM bubble. They will inflate this so much it will be historic.

If the shorts pile on they will squeeze them. That's what they look for.  Expect the printed money to keep coming until there is a currency crisis and the dollar crashes.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:25 | Link to Comment madbraz
madbraz's picture

Not a chance.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:31 | Link to Comment Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

It's not that the music stopped playing, it's going to the next track.

Coming to a superpower near you.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 23:36 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

One reason no one screws with NK is due to their having close to 9,500,000 armed military, militia and national guardsmen. 

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 07:21 | Link to Comment Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Imagine countries trying to collect their debts from a superpower that has 9,500,000 armed military, militia and national guardsmen.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:40 | Link to Comment Hubbs
Hubbs's picture

by now, it is clear, do the opposite. It looks like the QE is going to really pump the stock market now. DOW 2,000?  No sweat.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 16:43 | Link to Comment Catullus
Catullus's picture

Just collar it. The Vix is so cheap right now. I'm waiting for 2000 on the s&p.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:00 | Link to Comment Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Is it overvalued in the eye's of the Federal Reserve? That is what counts. They have printed the money and jacked down the interest rates and manipulated assets prices. It is they who matter as regards S&P valuation.

Wealth Effect is the avowed policy of the Federal Reserve, when they let it go down, then S&P will sell off. Not before. The slightest hint that the Fed will cease their support for current stock valuations, and down she goes!

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:07 | Link to Comment No More Bubbles
No More Bubbles's picture

This bubble has much further to run yet.  If Goldman says it's overvalued, then it will become even MORE overvalued!

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:28 | Link to Comment Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

As has been noted Goldman maybe setting everyone up for a mass muppet slaying by luring everyone who hates the rigged market into short positions then the trap is sprung. I don't trade the market so what is GS record overall record since 2008 for following their own advice.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:45 | Link to Comment falak pema
falak pema's picture

value is under-valued in gold and over valued in fiat, as we all intuitively know.

So depending on which mirror you sing your perennial song to : mirror mirror on the wall who has the fairest asshole of them all?

You get as reply what you want to hear , 'cos the mirror is like the weather vane it turns with the breeze. 

Thats the beauty of being born in this age : we are not what we do but what we say we do ! 

Amen! 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 17:58 | Link to Comment Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

Isn't the 'ol wait til the public gets in game pretty much dead?   The only money the public has is in 401ks and bank accounts earning nothing.    They hardly move 401k money around.

The way the public gets in the market these days is the creation of more debt courtesy of the taxpayers, then cycling that money to the money center banks.    None of that money sees main street and froths around in assets while the owners keep taking their toll cut for themselves.

Pretty soon they'll just take money directly out of custodial accounts/bank accounts like Corzine.    

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 18:22 | Link to Comment rubearish10
rubearish10's picture

Did everyone forget Goldman "short" gold call last year? Don't like GS but let them be right on this call, that's all I ask. Let's Roll!

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 18:37 | Link to Comment rubearish10
rubearish10's picture

Btw HumTum, stay off the blog or don't butcher it with your stuck button!

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:16 | Link to Comment Haager
Haager's picture

When's Goldman reporting? Think we'll see 1822 followed by 1865 then meltdown.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:20 | Link to Comment Its_the_economy...
Its_the_economy_stupid's picture

"Of course, it is possible. It is just not probable based on history. "

 

 

WhAT'S HISTORY GOT TO DO W THE NEW (fED iNSPIRED) NORMAL?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:21 | Link to Comment U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

"Then again, this is Goldman"

Yes, exactly. How can you possibly know what they are saying without a magic muppet decoder ring?

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:24 | Link to Comment The Heart
The Heart's picture

Wanna kill the music, listen to this poor man's story RIGHT NOW!~

USS Liberty survivor is live for the next 35 minutes.

 

http://republicbroadcasting.org/

 

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 19:39 | Link to Comment nightshiftsucks
nightshiftsucks's picture

We are Venezuela, 2014 the SP will be up 400%.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 20:04 | Link to Comment Ulterior
Ulterior's picture

the Anti-Social bubble will burst soon, Twatter and Fasebuk will be a precursors

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 20:39 | Link to Comment pot_and_kettle
pot_and_kettle's picture

Not only have they gone epic short, but they picked 100 of the 500 and shorted those floats. Blood soaked fucking animals in Loro Piana wool

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 21:23 | Link to Comment boeing747
boeing747's picture

Next two years are inflation trades, everything goes up from here, ben removes the risk of falling.

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 21:42 | Link to Comment resurger
resurger's picture

No shit Captain Joo!

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 22:09 | Link to Comment steveo77
steveo77's picture

eality, Fukushima increased the radio nuclides on an Alaskan island 2000 miles away.....the same amount of increase that was caused by a nuclear bomb test on the same island in 1960

Think about that for a minute

The data from a 300 page government test in June 2011 and the summary is here.

http://nukeprofessional.blogspot.com/2014/01/further-analysis-on-2011-al...

Source data and initial analysis is here

http://nukeprofessional.blogspot.com/2014/01/cd134-cs137-ratio-and-food-...

Sat, 01/11/2014 - 23:07 | Link to Comment fijisailor
fijisailor's picture

Debt cancellation jubilee is the only way out.  

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 00:51 | Link to Comment Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

It is unfair to the prudent, the savers, and the creditors.

 

If someone wishes to forgive another's debt then that is voluntary.

 

However to mandate that and to enforce that will be an outright theft.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 01:01 | Link to Comment fijisailor
fijisailor's picture

There is no fair way out.  Savings is not debt so that should be preserved.  The prudent should not suffer.  Creditors however should have to suffer.  The only other ways out are printing money to support the bubble until it pops or let deflation take hold and have severe depression.  Choose your poison carefully.  The prudent stand to lose in almost every scenario.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 08:42 | Link to Comment Keyser
Keyser's picture

Any debt forgiveness or "reset" will be accompanied by a reset in the USD also. Even if savings are preserved, they will only be worth whatever the USD resets to. According to Stockman, this will be in the neighborhood of a USD Index of between 50 and 56, so even the savers take a haircut. 

 

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 02:29 | Link to Comment BullyBearish
BullyBearish's picture

C'mon guys...it's been the same for the past 5 years...anytime the sentiment gets too positive, it must be beaten down to embolden profit taking and recharge the market by fooling the shorts into "loading up" once again...only to have their face ripped off as the squeeze pushes it to further highs.  Remember, this is certain at the beginning of the year especially when the news is unfavorable.  Do yourself a favor, don't take the bait and be ready to BTFD.  It will continue to continue till it doesn't.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 10:30 | Link to Comment devo
devo's picture

This is the year amazon grows into that 1,400 p/e. ha ha

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 08:02 | Link to Comment Spankrupt
Spankrupt's picture

Kant, in pure reason, says that time before creation (er,,big bang) doesn't affect the totality of time, cause after creation (BB) time is still time. Time is and always was time, before, during or after....at 15x, 16x, 17x, or 20x GAAP earnings......Goldmans time is almost up.

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 08:41 | Link to Comment kenezen
kenezen's picture

I'm in awe of what the international markets have done in 2013. Being fairly old fashioned I see "Two Primary Components of what is now a completely international market. The two primary components are: Production and Consumption (In that order). Global  production having been, and on a continuing basis is, an ever changing demographic of consistant cost efficiency. Consumption is a more didorderly factor!

Based on that disorder and much of the resultant paper currency disorder of which much more will soon make itself very, very apparent; I believe and have written in my Blog in August of 2013 that either at the very end of 2013 or the first quarter of 2014. Consumption will reduce or not increase with any velocity and cause following that a Substantial Pullback in the S&P! I still believe that. The discontinuity in some countries including the USA will contribute. And, changes in Reserve Currency status will cause others. The S&P may reach possibly 1200 before the end of 2014. 

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 09:33 | Link to Comment El Hosel
El Hosel's picture

WTF?  "Almost any Measure"... If we don't like the measures/numbers we just cook the books, this is the Geat Ponzi after all. KIll it already for fuks sake.

 

Sun, 01/12/2014 - 10:28 | Link to Comment muleskinner
muleskinner's picture

Me thinks Goldman is pulling some shit again. It's business as usual. Didn't they have something to do with Greece's debt obligations? Sneaky bastards.

If they want to kill a market, they probably can. Cow shit I know?

Buffalo Bill killed buffalo. The Great Plains were scoured of buffalo bones to grind to fertilizer and for the manufacture of bone china.

The price went from 8 dollars per ton to 22 dollars per ton in the late 19th century.

Then it crashed. No more buffalo bones to collect. A few hundred buffalo still were there, but the herds were gone, wiped out to near extinction.

Wagon loads and wagon loads of buffalo bones made it to market until it wasn't.

Buffalo were dern near killed off, which makes it difficult to market something that was there but isn't anymore. Good way to kill a market, kill it off.

The buffalo didn't have a chance when a Sharp's .50 caliber went to work. Had to have at least 60 million rounds and probably a lot more, so it was time to hunt. The things were there by the millions, so it was a pell mell free for all to shoot as many as they could. They're all over the Great Plains, so let's have a hunting party. Sport gone wild. Damn things are a nuisance and roam all over hell, so it is better to kill them than anything. Besides, the indians would just run them off a cliff and kill a few hundred at a time too, so it is a marketable, fungible natural resource for farmers and bone china manufacturers, so let's let 'er rip.

Bone china made in the US is some very collectible merchandise. A good investment, in my opinion, is old bone china made in the USA from yesteryear. Those bone china US made old plates, cups, bowls etc, are killer. It don't get no better.

Don't worry, buffalo are on the rise in numbers and are sold in a meat market. That's the way it goes moving west.

Mon, 01/13/2014 - 07:35 | Link to Comment Finnman
Finnman's picture

Lies, lies and lies. Who should believe Goldmann Sachs? Muppets?

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