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German Gold Manipulation Blowback Escalates: Deutsche Bank Exits Gold Price Fixing

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Germany's blowback against gold manipulation is accelerating. Following yesterday's report that Bafin took a hard line against precious metals manipulation, after its president Eike Koenig said possible manipulation of precious metals "is worse than the Libor-rigging scandal", today the response has trickled down to Germany and Europe's largest bank, Deutsche Bank, which announced that it would withdraw from the appropriately named gold and silver price "fixing", as European regulators investigate suspected manipulation of precious metals prices by banks. As a reminder, Deutsche is one of five banks involved in the twice-daily gold fix for global price setting and said it was quitting the process after withdrawing from the bulk of its commodities business. The scramble away from gold fixing was certainly assisted by the recent first (of many) manipulation expose in the legacy media, when Bloomberg revealed "How Gold Price Is Manipulated During The "London Fix." And sure enough, with Germany already very sensitive to the topic of its gold repatriation, and specifically why it is taking so long, it was only a matter of time before any German involvement in gold manipulation escalated to the very top.

Reuters has more:

"Deutsche Bank is withdrawing its participation in the gold and silver benchmark setting process following the significant scaling back of our commodities business. We remain fully committed to our precious metals business," it said in a statement.

 

In mid-December, German banking regulator Bafin demanded documents from Deutsche Bank under an inquiry into suspected manipulation of benchmark gold and silver prices by banks, the Financial Times reported, citing sources.

 

Bafin declined to comment on Friday, but its President Elke Koenig said the previous day that it was understandable that the topic was attracting widespread concern.

 

"These allegations (about currencies and precious metals) are particularly serious, because such reference values are based - unlike LIBOR and Euribor - typically on real transactions in liquid markets and not on estimates of the banks," she said in a speech

Needless to say, manipulation of the gold market would not be exactly novel to a bank which has also been named in cases related to the sub-prime crisis, credit default swaps, mortgages, tax evasion and a decade-old lawsuit suit brought by the heirs of late media mogul Leo Kirch, who accuse the bank of undermining the business.

Reuters also reports that Deutsche is now actively marketing its gold and silver fixing seats to another LBMA member, however now that the cat is out of the bag on the gold fixing manipulation scheme (the first of many), it is likely that others will seek to follow in Deutsche's footsteps and seek to put as much distance between themselves and the wood-paneled room once located in the Rothschild office on St. Swithin's Lane in London.

We wonder which of these five gentlemen is from Deutsche?

So if everyone exits the London fixing market, what happens then?

"It wouldn't surprise me if the other banks were looking at pulling out as well. Why would they want the aggravation?" said the source, who declined to be named.

 

"The more worrying point is that, if you don't have the fixing, what do you have? There's a lot of contractual business done on the gold fix, and if you've got no basis for where the price is, someone is going to lose out."

Well considering that the fixing process over the years was manipulation pure and simple, those who will lose out are the... manipulators? it would seem rather logical. And speaking of manipulation, if indeed Germany is so keen on breaking the manipulators' back, perhaps it can demand that the pace of its gold returns from the NY Fed and Paris accelerates. It may be surprised at what it finds.

 

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Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:32 | 4340908 yrad
yrad's picture

Gold Bitchez!!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:38 | 4340938 Master_Blaster
Master_Blaster's picture

Drive by wire, die by wire......

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:41 | 4340953 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

Too little too late for the Germans...........your gold is GONE..........as is most of the Western sovereigns........including Fort Knox.........IF YOU DON'T HOLD IT.......YOU DON'T OWN IT

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:44 | 4340972 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

High HUNDREDS Of Junior GOLD Companies In Canada Alone Have Been DESTROYED By This GOLD MANIP!
I Hope This Finally Escalates Into Daylight, And Payback Is Delivered To These White-Shirts.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:46 | 4340990 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

I believe what D-Bank is doing is commonly referred to as; Fleeing the scene of the crime.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:50 | 4341006 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

The rats may scatter, but they'll never stop being rats. They'll just find a dark alley where they can feast in peace.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:53 | 4341017 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Love that room.  Looks like something straight out of 'Trading Places'.  Which one is Mortimer?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:04 | 4341052 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Y'all are CRAZY if you think there is gold and silver manipulation.  Bunch of uneducated libertarian freaks.  Just because the big banks rigged LIBOR, manipulate oil futures, hoard aluminum in warehouses, and were a part of the Enron debacle, doesn't mean they rig the only thing that can totally wipe them out:  Gold.

Dr. Bernanke has this under control.  If you would put your faith behind Dr. Bernanke and Dr. Krugman, along with Mr. Timothy Geithner, the mastermind behind fixing the sliding UST sales, you will be set free.

Signed,

MDB

 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:06 | 4341073 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Some egghead idiot once said about gold:

“Well it’s tradition. Long term tradition”

Well Germany, you better get modern and become progressive fiat fools because your tradition has been sold off to the east and it ain’t coming back.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:07 | 4341083 Chuck Norris
Chuck Norris's picture

I'm not that mad gold has been artificially suppressed. It allowed me to accumulate it at better prices.  I hope it stays low longer, actually.  I'm just gonna buy more!! 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:14 | 4341119 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It's great to see that this has gone from "conspiracy theory" back in 2008 to slowly and then quickly escalating into conspiracy fact in the public's conciousness.  The logical conclusion will be that if our money is fake, then everything that has been built around that for the past four decades is also fake.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:18 | 4341143 Chuck Norris
Chuck Norris's picture

Huh?

Our money is FAKE!?

Oh SHIT!!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:29 | 4341193 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Why is Germany now kicking up a stink, while they await the repatriation of their gold?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:34 | 4341233 Four chan
Four chan's picture

Deutsche bags.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:57 | 4341322 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

--Tylers, please make 4Chan's avatar bigger.

--Don't care, I'm gay.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:10 | 4341377 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

This is getting spread all accros the MSM propaganda machine!  

 

Realtime Coverage   Deutsche Bank Calls for 'Moral Compass' as Probes Deepen Bloomberg  - ‎55 minutes ago‎ Deutsche Bank AG (DBK), Europe's largest investment bank by revenue, said employees who don't put clients first aren't welcome at the company. “If you don't have the necessary moral compass, you can't work for us,” Stephan Leithner, management board ...

Resource Investor


euronews


Economic Times


AFP

GOLD WEBCAST – Gold tests at $1250, Deutsche Bank to retreat from fixings FastMarkets Metal News  - ‎31 minutes ago‎ Gold Price Recovers 1% Weekly Loss as Deutsche Bank Quits London Fix BullionVault  - ‎1 hour ago‎ Deutsche Bank Withdraws From Gold Fixing in Commodities Cuts San Francisco Chronicle  - ‎1 hour ago‎ Deutsche Bank Withdraws From Gold Fixing in Commodities Cuts (1) Businessweek  - ‎2 hours ago‎ Deutsche Bank exits from gold, silver price-fixing Channel News Asia  - ‎2 hours ago‎ Show recently hidden articles In Depth Deutsche Bank Withdraws From Gold Fixing in Commodities Cuts (1) Businessweek  - ‎2 hours ago‎ Deutsche Bank AG will put up for sale its gold and silver fixing membership and stop submitting gold forward offered rates, according to a person familiar with the decision, who asked not be identified because the information isn't public. Photographer: Chris ... Deutsche Bank Withdraws From Gold Fixing in Commodities Cuts San Francisco Chronicle  - ‎1 hour ago‎ (Updates with analyst comment in fourth paragraph.) Jan. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Deutsche Bank AG will withdraw from participating in setting gold and silver benchmarks in London after Europe's top investment bank joined JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Morgan ... UPDATE 2-Deutsche quits gold price-setting as regulators investigate fix Reuters  - ‎2 hours ago‎ ... Stocks. * German regulator has been investigating gold-fixing process. * Deutsche move comes after scaling back commodity business. * Others may follow Deutsche's lead - source. * Deutsche, rivals embroiled in probes of FX, interest rates. By Eric Onstad. Deutsche quits gold price-setting as regulators investigate fix euronews  - ‎3 hours ago‎ LONDON (Reuters) – Deutsche Bank <DBKGn.DE> will withdraw from gold and silver benchmark price setting, it said on Friday, as European regulators investigate suspected manipulation of precious metals prices by banks. Germany's largest bank and ...
Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:37 | 4341459 BoNeSxxx
BoNeSxxx's picture

Smells like a limited hangout to me.

If they are feeding this little truth 'nugget' to the masses, there is an iceberg below the surface that has them all shitting Twinkies.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:08 | 4341575 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

 

 

David Cameron has some explaining to do about the rig the LBMA has been running:

http://www.safehaven.com/article/32394/for-prime-minister-cameron-re-lbm...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:36 | 4341668 Gief Gold Plox
Gief Gold Plox's picture

And so, it begins. I wonder if we'll look upon today as the begining of the end, one day...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 15:19 | 4341804 BellyBrain
BellyBrain's picture

Remember folks, ALL money is fake.  It is a fiction that men invented to enslave everyone else. Doesn't matter if it's gold, silver, fiat paper, bitcoins or seashells. 

Aside from some small intrinsic value of (some) of the above, these things are only worth what we all THINK they are worth. 

Only when we understand that money is inherently WORTHLESS will we begin to see the first dawning rays of freedom.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 16:00 | 4341906 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Yee can't fix somethin yee aint got.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 07:25 | 4343611 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

"ALL money is fake"???

BULLSHIT.

Propaganda for the weak-minded.

Gold, bitchez.

 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 18:32 | 4342366 StillSilence
StillSilence's picture

Remember folks, ALL money is fake.

 

I'm not sure about that. The concepts of ownership and trading time/energy/goods are very real to me. Becuase those exist, the idea of money makes a great deal of sense.

The problems come in when money is selected for and forced upon people through taxation, particularly when it is not based on any real item of production and worse yet when it is pure debt. Obligating people into a system of loss is the real or bigger issue. 

All people should be allowed to transact however they wish. Currencies could be issued in anything and anyone could participate or not. If it isn't fully redeemable then it's a scam, and even if it is, it's a risk. I think naturally precious metals would be the most used.

Let people keep what they earn and allow truly free markets to do what they can in every area. The only need for any gov and taxation should be to service very basic general needs of the public and has to be fully transparent.

PEOPLE are supposed to make up the government/taxing entity and therefore see all of it's secrets, not the other way around.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:14 | 4343581 new game
new game's picture

looks real to me. just handed a fine young lady a franklin and walked out with a bunch of supplies.

hmmm. haven't done that latly with an eagle...

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:11 | 4343746 tmosley
tmosley's picture

"ALL money is fake"

This is why we can't have nice things.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:22 | 4343764 KickIce
KickIce's picture

Good point, even if you have PMs and the other party refuses to sell, say food, you are screwed.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:40 | 4341679 Gief Gold Plox
Gief Gold Plox's picture

And so, it begins. I wonder if we'll look upon today as the begining of the end, one day...

Again Friday, why do they always do this shit on Friday, when all the coin shops around here close already at 1P.M.? Oh, wait...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:45 | 4341698 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Did anyone catch the little phrase "benchmark setting process"?  Sounds like a fancier wording for price fixing and manipulation.  Kind of like disinflation or many of the other bullshit phases used to cover up the real meaning.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:27 | 4341638 secretargentman
secretargentman's picture

Shitting Twinkies?  I see a business opportunity!

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 02:19 | 4343421 jomama
jomama's picture

just drag it into google images, duh.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:36 | 4341245 HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Is somebody going to send ships over here just like the French did when Jacques Rueff oustmarted the Americans in the 60s and early 1970s? Tricky Dick did what he could, but old Rueff was sure pissed and got de Gaulle to offer to help in the acquisition of "their" gold that they had been trading dollars for...but this is a different situation. No gold window is closing. This is just outright theft. People have gone to war over less. I'm just saying...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:44 | 4341281 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

Bankers shouldn't try to fix what ain't broke. Let the markets decide what gold, cars, houses, etc are worth for a change. Lets try something new...give markets a chance.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:59 | 4341330 ejmoosa
ejmoosa's picture

But if we do that, then we may not value things the way the experts do.  That's gonna wreak havoc upon their long term models....

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:17 | 4341400 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

That is the essence of central planning and even communism.

The obvious conundrum ignored by the "experts" is that the true market price is needed as a reference point. Once you begin to destroy the markets you actually lose the ability to establish any price connected to the real world.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:39 | 4341676 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Hence the need to keep their fat fingers on PMs.

 

 

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:17 | 4343583 new game
new game's picture

news flash to all optimists-still a fucking charade!!!

so somehow the bankers all got morality-fucken delusion bigtime on this site.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:38 | 4343850 aminorex
aminorex's picture

"The more worrying point is that, if you don't have the fixing, what do you have? There's a lot of contractual business done on the gold fix, and if you've got no basis for where the price is, someone is going to lose out."

 

Allow me to rephrase:

 

"The more worrying point is that, if you don't have the gold, what do you have?  There's a lot of contractual business done on the gold fix, and if you've got no basis for where the price is, someone is going to lose out."


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:38 | 4343851 aminorex
aminorex's picture

"The more worrying point is that, if you don't have the fixing, what do you have? There's a lot of contractual business done on the gold fix, and if you've got no basis for where the price is, someone is going to lose out."

 

Allow me to rephrase:

 

"The more worrying point is that, if you don't have the gold, what do you have?  There's a lot of contractual business done on the gold fix, and if you've got no basis for where the price is, someone is going to lose out."


Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:35 | 4341665 pFXTim
pFXTim's picture

A very cogent observation -- something I'd like to know as well.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:27 | 4343291 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

I first thought our manipulation of gold was to pay back China for buying our debt (then diluting the value of the USD).

Now, I think it was to pay everyone back who thought their gold was being "safely stored" here.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:28 | 4343588 resurger
resurger's picture

Shitzeeeeeeee

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:19 | 4341149 Rubbish
Rubbish's picture

Ok but when is the next smackdown?

 

My trigger finger is loaded now and she looks to EXPLODE at any minute.

 

Fuck it, on my way to the LCS, better to have had, than never fucked the bastards.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:31 | 4341182 Manthong
Manthong's picture

William Kaye on KWN said he would not be surprised if the paper was pushed down to the 10 handle.

In that same "tremendous" interview he mentioned China added over 2,400 tons last year..  and that is more than mine production.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:21 | 4341161 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

Is bitcoin fake also?

 

Stack On

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:32 | 4341217 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Of course Bitcoin is not fake.  And if Bitcoin continues to act like a fiat fear index it can help regulate governments and banks from further market manipulation.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:25 | 4341401 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

Define fake. Let's use substantive terms.

Is BitCoin tangible? Yes and No. Technically no, most aren't, and those that are lose whatever intrinsic properties BTC has for real-time global transactions by leaving cyberspace.

Does BitCoin have an underlying asset backing it? No.

Do BitCoins have intrinsic value? Yes and no. The inherent properties have value for the services they provide, but on the goods side of the house there is no intrinsic value. The difference between this situation and precious metals is that the intrinsic value only exists as long as there is infrastructure to support it where as the intrinsic value of metals is non-negatable.

Was BitCoin created from nothing like fiat currency? Yes.

Can BitCoin clones be reproduced by anyone with the know how? Yes.

Does the lack of central planning in BitCoin protect it from market manipulation? No. As the only truly free market it is at the mercy of whoever has the biggest wallet.

I would add the the only reason BTC has taken over the role of the fiat fear index is because people at large are ignorant about precious metals which have always fulfilled that role until recent history.

The powers that be are likely very pleased that BitCoin is around to steer people away from their achilles heel, metals, real money, the only thing that can truly bring them down, and that people are instead focused on something that requires their dependency on the system instead of being free from it with untraceable metals. BitCoins are traceable. All network traffic is traceable, even TOR. There are pesky things known as router logs.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:28 | 4341436 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I would add the the only reason BTC has taken over the role of the fiat fear index is because people at large are ignorant about precious metals which have always fulfilled that role until recent history.

 

What a load.  Try and smuggle a few thousand ounces of gold or silver accross the US/Canada border and then tell me how "ignorant" Bitcoiners are.  Obviously, Bitcoin has thousands of advantages over physical bullion.  And if you think that TPTB created Bitcoin that just goes to expemplify your own ignorance.  

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:58 | 4341539 superflex
superflex's picture

If I had 1,000 ounces I obtained legally, there's no need to smuggle it.  Just declare it and move on.

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/pub/bsf5052-eng.html

You are one shady troll.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:04 | 4341550 fonestar
fonestar's picture

In an economic collapse scenario, that 1,000 ounces you obtained legally can become illegal from the time you leave your house to the time you make it to your destination.  And the whole concept of "smuggling" and "money laundering" rests upon the morally reprehensible idea that government somehow has the right to tell you what you can do with your money!

Yet another Zerohead poster who cannot think like a crypto-anarchist or criminal.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:06 | 4341561 tvdog
tvdog's picture

And the whole concept of "smuggling" and "money laundering" rests upon the morally reprehensible idea that government somehow has the right to tell you what you can do with your money!

Hear, hear!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 19:02 | 4342466 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

I never said BitCoiners were ignorant. I said people at large. You assume that BitCoin is rising in price because of "BitCoiners", which is not the case. As I stated the biggest wallets are responsible for price action. The rest of us are along for the ride. If people at large were not ignorant then the metals would be the fiat fear index, and that doesn't imply that their ignorance has caused BitCoin to rise to prominence. So then I think we can actually say BitCoin is not a fiat fear index, but rather a speculator's paradise. It is your wishful thinking that it has supplanted the role of metals, and I must say the shill arguments against you are gaining traction in my mind. Also, anyone trying to cross a border isn't staying off the grid, so you missed the point there as well. As far as collapse scenario, do you really thinking anyone will be enforcing the laws outside major hubs? It will be every man for himself, and your BitCoins will be unretrievable unless you want to be escorted by the gestapo to a sanctioned Internet access point.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:27 | 4343293 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Like a lamb to the slaughter.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:08 | 4343573 August
August's picture

FWIW returning gold or silver Maple Leafs to their country of origin is not considered to represent an "import" into Canada.

As both GML and SML are >.999 fine, they are also not taxed on sale or "importation". Or, FWIW, on export.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:43 | 4341483 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

You just had to go encourage him didnt you? He says something reasonable (not that fone didnt at least start out reasonable enough with the whole btc thing, and I'm not a hater btw) above, then you baited him into this.

 

Ugh.

Not that I didnt feel the urge also...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 15:43 | 4341862 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Shouldn't your post just say  "Smart post."   ?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:34 | 4341223 walküre
walküre's picture

Don't know if there's anything more fake than "currency" mined on a hard drive. Maybe this is relevant in galaxy Uhuru but I believe we're far too human to ever get our collective heads around a currency strictly created from codes, bits and bytes.

At this stage in the game earth is still not evolved far enough and has to couple its currencies to finite resources. Once we have achieved a much higher state of technology and mankind just lives, the BTC concept will work. When computers and robots literally run every aspect of our lives and nobody has to actually work anymore, thus no need to fight or manipulate or gain advantage then this next generation of human beings will accept anything as a medium of exchange. Because at that time, all goods and services will be provided free of charge as computers have taken over and computers are not interested in exploitation or enslavement.

There's risk along the way that a person or a group of persons will derail evolution and skew the progression to their advantage. Old habits die hard. Then there would be a phase where opposition builds and people go dark and disconnect from the grid as they can not trust the system that is built and wired to enslave them. The ruling group will be alone and die off when it starts fighting among their own. The group of the true free peoples, the people with a higher consciousness will emerge and will program computers to eradicate any signs of greed going forward. The new world order will be truly free and know nothing about discrimination or disadvantages. Computers will be trusted to run every aspect of our lives fair and truly honest.

No man will own or control billions in wealth when billions of people are enslaved or worse, they're starving.

Where man has failed, is failing and will always fail, the computer will take over and create balance and bliss. I welcome the prospect of such a future!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:43 | 4341279 fonestar
fonestar's picture

So you are saying software systems and networks are "fake"?  That's funny because I just fired up bitcoin-qt and it connected.  You might want to check your clock, it's trying to tell you what century this is.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:52 | 4341300 walküre
walküre's picture

Sorry, won't happen in your lifetime. BTC is manipulated like everything else. Assuming it was really created outside of the control of the usual suspects, it was still created by a person or group of persons to achieve greater influence, greater advantage and personal benefits before collective benefit. Still just a cog in the same boring wheel of same old same old mankind. Things progress faster now but we're still at least a couple thousand years behind. Just look at the insanity out there, the mismanagement, the misallocation and the stupidity by billions who are following religious beliefs. You can't just strip all that away overnight, in the glimpse of an eye so to speak and introduce a true and fair balanced system to all. This evolutionary stage is not it. Other than automation, scientific advancement and some civil rights, has anything really changed over the course of the last 5,000 years?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:01 | 4341344 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

Wlkure, what's the old saying... "thou shalt not feed those who live under bridges"...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:08 | 4341363 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin is manipulated?  Care to substantiate that statement?  No, of course you can't because nobody even owns any Bitcoin to manipulate with.  An article just came out on Reddit where it shows just over 200,000 wallets contain more than one BTC.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:51 | 4341520 walküre
walküre's picture

The price is volatile compared to other mediums of exchange, isn't it? Who sets the price?

Are you suggesting the platforms that display the price are resembling a fair market of free participants selling and buying BTC without any form of coordinaton or control?

You're a believer, I get that. Just like billions of people who believe in the concept of "god" and are willing to argue that their god is real until they're blue in the face.

See, as long as BTC can be measured against the manipulated fiat there is a place for BTC as an alternative. Doesn't mean that BTC is any less manipulated than the rest. It's an alternative but derived on the same criteria as all other fiats.

Is BTC finite? Doesn't seem to make any sense if it was when computers get built faster than the speed of light and computers almost reinvent themselves every day. You cannot convince anyone that your medium of exchange is a sound investement. An alternative to fiat, absolutely. But so are lumber futures or racks and racks of toilet paper.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:08 | 4341572 fonestar
fonestar's picture

The price is not volatile.  From $0 to $1000 in five years would seem to indicate this has direction and force, does it not?  The price is set by individuals who are selling dollars to buy Bitcoin or Bitcoin to buy dollars (or their respective local currencies).  Again, Bitcoin cannot be manipulated if less than a quarter million people own Bitcoin.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:57 | 4341737 john39
john39's picture

bitcoin = banker experiment.  painfully obvious at this point.  bitcoin or something like it, is the solution the bankers will roll out after the current crisis fully comes into fruition.   They can easly create, control and delete bitcoin.  anyone who says otherwise isn't paying attention to the world around us today.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:31 | 4343301 tmosley
tmosley's picture

It's a little bit wrong to call a tomato a vegetable.  It's very wrong to call a tomato a suspension bridge.

Your statement falls into the latter category.

Like saying Marie Antoinette invented the fucking guillotine.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:10 | 4341577 tvdog
tvdog's picture

Manipulated or not, with the U.S. government getting ready to sell 30,000 bitcoins from the Silk Road seizure, in the short term bitcoin is likely to go down.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:15 | 4341591 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I'll be there buying like a greedy virtual bastard.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 09:47 | 4343669 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

 

I'd be writing some expansion code while you're at it.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 17:40 | 4342228 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Are you daft?
See how bitcoin can vary from +80% to -80%?
That's manipulation. Fiat exchanges exist for bitcoin to find bag-holders, to manipulate prices higher to get suckerz in, then dump it on them, then start over, and along the way run off with bank accounts linked to exchanges, and any btc put in an exchange-wallet for others to transfer.
That's manipulation.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:18 | 4343759 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That's just the volatility associated with steady adoption in the face of government force.  More people come in, it goes up 1000%.  A government interferes with the operations of the primary exchange, it falls 50%.  More people come in, it rises 500%.  Some government bans financial institutions from using it, it falls 50%.  More people come in, and retailers start adopting it, it rises 100% so far.  Government threatens to dump confiscated bitcoins for dollars, and the rise stalls out for a while.  Etc etc.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 03:08 | 4345455 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

no, it's not. The rapid selling & fx/type trading is opposite of adoption - btc in every fiat currency is a hot potato and no one's using it as a primary holding/vehicle for getting services or goods.
What you're saying is impossible. The rapid adoption would remove all fiat volatility AND VOLUME and instead see a new reality of goods & services for btc rapidly rising exponentially - that's not happening.

Government IS NOT INTERFERING with bitcoin transactions, only with BITCOIN-TO-FIAT transactions. That shows you the refusal to adopt bitcoin.

If goods were tranfered for bitcoin & nothing else these interferences would not exist, they would have no effect.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 17:36 | 4342221 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Bad news for you.
Within 10 years it won't and gold will have no problem 10, 100, 1000 years from now.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 19:43 | 4342621 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

So your idea of an idyllic society is one in which we can just lay around all day and be serviced my machines....

That is so sad. 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:34 | 4341231 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

2008? GATA has been saying this since 1998. I know that because I was there at the conference in Vancouver, BC they day they formed it.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:45 | 4341285 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I'm aware of that but people were not widely discussing it online until the late 00's.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:12 | 4341385 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Not sure many people know anything about this even today. GATA has been banned from the MSM in the USA for the last 12-15 years. Even popular bloggers like Mike "Mish" Shedlock still call it "conspiracy theory". Hard to believe really.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:16 | 4341450 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Mish is a deflationist.  

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 15:49 | 4341874 akak
akak's picture

And therefore an idiot.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:19 | 4341145 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

nope-1004

Right on man.

It's the ONLY thing that can wipe them out.

It is absolutely crucial. Everything else can be spun, lied about, or somehow downplayed.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:08 | 4341571 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

ALL of it is being manipulated...not just "gold." the problem is one of supply...as in "too much of it." So absolutely...."seize Mars." that's why these dates keep getting pushed back: it's already been done. The problem is human curiosity and the need to "see for ourselves." Skepticism is what makes the markets. Once the metals market crash...again...it's game on for the Space Race Part Deux. The 60's was just a prelude.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:28 | 4343461 SRSrocco
Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:53 | 4341020 Bad Attitude
Bad Attitude's picture

Where are the Chinese in this? They have been one of the prime beneficiaries of the manipulation which has depressed precious metal prices.

 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:06 | 4341078 eclectic syncretist
eclectic syncretist's picture

They are on the other ends of all those phone calls.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:40 | 4341265 HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

"No no no, round eyes no manipulate gold price. It just fine for us."

No some asshole is going to report me on the racism thing. Truth is those Chinese buyers are a helluva lot smarter than anyone else. I'm convinced they talk in broken English just to make it seem even clearer *to the West* that the Westerners have all the smarts and the advantage. And then they laugh their asses off all the way to the vault with some barbarous relic.

I'm turning Chinese, I think I'm turning Chinese, I really think so.

Damn...so close on that song. 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:24 | 4341172 outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture

The guy at the table with 4 aces is always silent.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:38 | 4341254 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

Damn...I knew he was up to something

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:41 | 4341264 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

Rats jump ship (then drown).

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:17 | 4341397 johnnymustardseed
johnnymustardseed's picture

The rats may scatter, but the biggest rat of all, the FED will conitue the manipulation..

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 18:27 | 4342350 Cap Matifou
Cap Matifou's picture

Here is the link to the original Bafin speech, if anyone cares. Throw the link into a translator to have a peek. The section around gold trade is worded quite diplomatic.

Rede von Dr. Elke König, Präsidentin der BaFin, am 16. Januar 2014 in Frankfurt am Main
http://www.bafin.de/SharedDocs/Reden/DE/re_140116_neujahrspresseempfang_...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:09 | 4341369 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Aiding and abbetting too.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 15:19 | 4341807 moonshadow
moonshadow's picture

Deutschebags

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:23 | 4341169 outamyeffinway
outamyeffinway's picture

Maybe Germany knows they're not getting their gold back so this is all payback. Break their fucking necks for stealing from us!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:45 | 4341283 Mercuryquicksilver
Mercuryquicksilver's picture

Thinking same thing. This will only cost the Fed more to replinish German's "misplaced" gold.

 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:51 | 4341519 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

What will it cost the Fed? Currency? LMAO...

 

When this explodes, and it will, thenj no amount of US Dollars will be able to purchase any amount of Gold.

 

If the price of Gold were to double in 6 Months do you think that anyone will sell it? Anyone who has it will be scrambling to buy more of it as that signals that the End Game is happening.

 

The Fed cannot have the US Government print their way out of this. Nobody will sell if they attempt it. 

 

Also very few are selling Physical Gold into a declining market. 

 

Whatever Gold is sold is being bought up by the East at these Bargain Prices.

 

The Fed has painted themselves into a corner and they continue to paint. By the time that they are done they will be wearing the paint and there will be no solutions. There is no escaping it.

 

Bring on the Crosses for the Public Crucifixtions

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:29 | 4341192 unrulian
unrulian's picture

Yes...and unfortunately those producers that are left will be nationalized when the jig is up...Canada has no gold

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:21 | 4341618 Larry Dallas
Larry Dallas's picture

I can't help but think that ZH and the Tyler's helped drive this decision and expose this fraud.

Great for ZH. Great for all us!

Round is on my at the Regal Beagle...

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:08 | 4343250 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

Miners are complicit, for some reason?

Any guesses?

Maybe they prefer paper to metals?

 

I dont ...they do.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:30 | 4343463 jballz
jballz's picture

no they were destoyed by shitty managers and stupid decisions.

Though half are scam companies set up because they know goldbugs will buy absolutely anything.

biggest sucker class on the planet.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:13 | 4341117 buzlightening
buzlightening's picture

What could this all mean as the whole debt based system begins to unravel as colossal epic blatant criminal fraud.  I'm thinking collapse the terminal system!  What do I know other than we'll have over 1 trillion in reverse repos by Monday and the last 30 days has been reverse repoing from hell by the dead head fed fuds.  Oh the criminal banksters know it's time to exit the criminal stage.  Pack it up and get out of the blowup ponzi.http://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/omo/dmm/historical/tomo/search.cfm

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:21 | 4341138 Volaille de Bresse
Volaille de Bresse's picture

"Too little too late for the Germans...........your gold is GONE..........as is most of the Western sovereigns........including Fort Knox.........IF YOU DON'T HOLD IT.......YOU DON'T OWN IT"

 

Mutti is smart, Merkel is sailing to the shores where gold is real : China! And she's now saying "fuck you" to the Anglo-American evil empire.

And to you all Euro-rats she's leaving that wreck too.

"Go East big woman!" :-) Mutti is smart indeed!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:28 | 4341183 cro_maat
cro_maat's picture

Merkel is in the hospital from a CIA induced "skiing accident" LOL

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:37 | 4341249 walküre
walküre's picture

It will be interesting to see if she attends Sochi. Intel seems to be sure about a major false flag during the event and dignitaries are either "double checking" their itineraries or cancelling altogether. I wouldn't go unless someone put a gun to my head. Same difference.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:40 | 4341517 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

Agreed, Germany now knows their gold is GONE. The Germans now know that America's gold is GONE. That only leaves "We the People" still believing our gold is still in Fort Knox.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:57 | 4341036 The_Ungrateful_Yid
The_Ungrateful_Yid's picture

Gold or Die bitches, remember?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:08 | 4341086 TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

The real manipulator is Paul Krugman and the Keynesian economists.  Think about it.  The London fix is based on the price for which there are an equal amount of buyers and sellers, plus or minus 50 bars.  If you convince everybody that gold has no place in the world economy any more, then there will be fewer buyers (who bank at those 5 banks).

In ye olden days, money was physically made of gold, and empires got in trouble for "debasing" their currency by mixing in other "base" metals.  Getting people to accept paper instead of gold was genius.  Removing the gold backing from the paper was the coup d'etat, and now we are living in a dream world where our money has no fixed relationship to gold.

But 5,000+ years of history can't be denied, and deep down, I believe people still "know" that gold is the only true money.  When they wake up to the fraud going on (likely when they take a hit to their pocketbooks), gold will begin to get revalued.  Whether there's a dollar left to value it against at that point is anybody's guess.  The smart players are getting back into gold now while its cheap.  Everyone else will get screwed.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:19 | 4341144 JohnnyBriefcase
JohnnyBriefcase's picture

Holding my coins always makes me feel like a pirate.

King o the seas, hyaaaar!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:28 | 4341187 Frozen IcQb
Frozen IcQb's picture

Just think of yourself as an entrepreneur hedging against tyranny.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:11 | 4341580 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

When I am a 'cash register', paying for beer with cash (Greshams Law) I will often ask the 'cashier': "Do you accept paper and metal tokens?" with a confused look on my face.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:05 | 4341354 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

Arraaggh Matey! And it's not even "Talk Like A Pirate Day"!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 15:55 | 4341887 akak
akak's picture

Avast and scald thy tongue, ye scurrilous scalliwag, for a REAL buccaneer EVERY day is "Talk Like A Pirate Day"!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:40 | 4341260 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

5000 years of history? Most people don't remember what they had for breakfast.

 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:01 | 4341545 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

You are so right about Krugman. He truly despises gold, yet I detect he has a certain fondness for platinum coins.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:28 | 4341437 buzlightening
buzlightening's picture

3 day weekend with martin luther king day Monday.  Perfect time for a global currency reset; SUDDENLY OVERNIGHT?  Check your cash on hand and other supplies for this could morf into monetary disaster SUDDENLY.  The criminal banksters have taken no thought as to the publics suffering when a debt cycle blows up as in the 30's.  Sure lil scamBO lock steps neoCONzi fascism next to fdr.  The last overnight surprise with a monster USDinker dollar devaluation against gold; April 6, 1933.  Opps there goes history trying to ryhme and repeat?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:30 | 4341442 midtowng
midtowng's picture

There are still 4 other major banks doing it, so the price manipulations will continue

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:42 | 4341484 thunderchief
thunderchief's picture

Dear citizens of Germany,

All your gold is gone.

You are now the #2 holder of paper gold in the world, and somewhere around Grenada or Pago Pago in physical holdings.

Keep holding that bag of hot air, and stay on that line, some one will pick up at the fed to take your call, and promptly hang up!

Uncle S&M

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:34 | 4340914 unrulian
unrulian's picture

Exit Bitchez!! 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:53 | 4341016 tallen
tallen's picture

Rush for the exits before the shit comes crashing down.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:58 | 4341038 Obama_4_Dictator
Obama_4_Dictator's picture

I have wet dreams about this shit show DOW crashing and seeing all the suckers scream and the gnashing of teeth as they watch everyting they "worked" for melt down....maybe I have a problem but I can't take the manipulation anymore....for the Bible says in Ecclesiastes 1:18 ASV

"For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow." And that I truly do belive....
Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:08 | 4341092 eclectic syncretist
eclectic syncretist's picture

Soon enough, money will flee equities, and later bonds, in search of safety.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:31 | 4341207 g speed
g speed's picture

imho -- the prices in markets in commodities, real-estate, bonds, T bills and equities will be supported by manipulation until the event horizon. Then equities(et al) will swan dive at a pace where getting out is impossible--what was valued in the thousands will be valued in the tens or ones--- there will be very few who will get out with their zeros and that will be used to pay off debt to live.  Very little left to buy PMs ----just saying.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:30 | 4341649 therevolutionwas
therevolutionwas's picture

Zimbabwe stock market did great all through their hyperinflation.  You could cash out your gazillion zimbabwe dollars in stocks and buy a pack of smokes.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:13 | 4341118 TwoCats
TwoCats's picture

My paraphrase:  "The more you understand about the world, the more you realize how ****ed up it really is."

Having studied Ecclesiastes recently, I think that gets at the heart of it.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:17 | 4341135 Obama_4_Dictator
Obama_4_Dictator's picture

I agree, I was much happier when I was a dumb sheep....thankfully I am one of God's sheep now, not the world's....the world can blow me

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:13 | 4341383 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Y shits on A while raping G.

 

and jesus wept

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 13:47 | 4341505 Clever Name
Clever Name's picture

I'm sure Jesus approves of this message.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:35 | 4340917 Central Wanker
Central Wanker's picture

How shocking!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:35 | 4340922 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Well I'm sure Golden Slacks can pick up the gold-fixing slack from Deutschebag Bank.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:38 | 4341255 walküre
walküre's picture

It's DOUCHE BANK - once and for all. Get with it!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:05 | 4341556 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

It is also Golden Showers.

 

Yeah...Golden Showers and Douche Bank.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:43 | 4340923 Kaiser Sousa
Kaiser Sousa's picture

Run you mother fucking cocksucker pieces of shit MoneyChanger fucks...

still stackin every month assholes...

HOW YOU LIKE ME KNOW.....

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:35 | 4340926 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

So it looks like the official bank position is 'if you don't appreciate the work we do in rigging the market, maybe we'll all stop, and then see how you like it' - arrogant fucks.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:52 | 4341014 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Now, if gold DROPS when the "gold fixing" group slowly dissolves, I don't want to hear any bitching from anyone.

(It's up about $8 right now, knocking on $1250 again, so I doubt that will be a problem)

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:06 | 4341077 AlamoJack
AlamoJack's picture

Yeah, just watch what happens to price of gold and silver when the DOW is approaching 6000 on the DOWNSLOPE.  It's gonna' be gritty.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:10 | 4341102 eclectic syncretist
eclectic syncretist's picture

You can be sure that the Fed is really hoping for and working towards what they might call a managed decline in equities.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:35 | 4341235 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

"Now, if gold DROPS when the "gold fixing" group slowly dissolves, I don't want to hear any bitching from anyone."

 

Nonsense,  FOFOA has a perfectly defensible theory that when people lose fiath in the Comex and LBMA beause of manipulation,  gold price will drop rapidly towards $0 before being reset in the cash and carry markets run by the elite.

 

Huge trouble for the goldbugs is coming.  Also, even bigger trouble for non-gold bugs is coming.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:19 | 4341606 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Gold futures price, more specifically.  Not bullion.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:36 | 4340927 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Deutsche is only the highest leveraged bank/hedge fund in the world, but this might pass as progress.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:37 | 4340934 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

"...as European regulators investigate suspected manipulation of precious metals prices by banks."

Who came with Stupid?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:37 | 4340935 Obama_4_Dictator
Obama_4_Dictator's picture

Fucking Cock Sucking Scum of the Earth - burn in hell all you banksters, you may run things here on earth but there will be hell to pay below.  Enjoy it while you can!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:03 | 4341062 holmes
holmes's picture

Dude, don't hold back.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:29 | 4341191 Obama_4_Dictator
Obama_4_Dictator's picture

Sorry this is where I come to vent....

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 14:14 | 4341590 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Why are you sorry?

 

DON'T HOLD BACK.

 

I am not sorry that they will be CRUCIFIED BEFORE THEY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.

 

I HOPE THAT SATAN REAMS THEIR FAGGOT ASSES OUT WTH A MOLTEN STEEL SWORD. THEY ARE MOTHER...NO...CHILD FUCKING PEDERAST FILTH FROM THE PITS OF A SEWER.

 

Damn...I feel so much better now.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 15:37 | 4341852 Squiddly Diddly
Squiddly Diddly's picture

"I agree, I was much happier when I was a dumb sheep....thankfully I am one of God's sheep now, not the world's....the world can blow me"   By your use of language I would say you are sheep dipped.  I have no doubt bankers will receive their appropriate reward in the coming judgement.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:38 | 4340937 Count of Lastovo
Count of Lastovo's picture

If nothing fraudulent was being done, why would Deutsche feel the need to withdraw now just because of increased scrutiny?   Hmmm....

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:13 | 4341116 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

Maybe due to the relentless efforts of some to spread the word about the metal rigging they can't pull their old scams anymore and are being forced to exit as the spotlight shines on the cockroaches...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:39 | 4340940 unwashedmass
unwashedmass's picture

oops. 

well, we all know that JPM/the FED dictates what the "fix" is anyway....

so why don't we just end all this and go straight to an announcement every morning from JPM/the FED? 

(which can be leaked in advance, of course, to the former group of "fixers")

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:39 | 4340944 Rodders75
Rodders75's picture

Sell its seat to Goldman Sachs. That way they can fuck over even more muppets

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:38 | 4340945 Sufiy
Sufiy's picture

Good timing:


China Expands Gold Reserves to 2,710 Tons - Third Largest In The World


Now we have the confirmation from China IMF reporting to the previous report from Bloomberg. China is very serious in accumulation Gold and latest reports from Germany about the Gold price manipulation are coming now with the record leverage at COMEX with 112 owners per each ounce of Gold! http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/china-expands-gold-reserves-to-2710....



  Arthur Cutten: COMEX Gold Potential Claims Per Deliverable Ounce Rises to Historical High 112 to 1 GLD, TNR.v, MUX, GDX

 
 "After issuing his Buy Signal on Gold, Arthur reports the new historical all-time-high leverage at COMEX with 112 potential owners for each one ounce of Gold!"


Glenn Beck: Where Is German Gold?

Glenn Beck is digging up the mystery of German Gold repatriation. With the reports that even small amount of the delivered Gold so far was melted beforehand we can be sure that there is no more original German Gold left. As we have discussed before, theGold smashing down has started with Venezuela's request for Gold to be returned back and last year Gold's bloodbath was assured with Germany seeking for its Gold to be returned as well.

 

http://sufiy.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/glenn-beck-where-is-german-gold-gld....

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 11:55 | 4341029 WhyDoesItHurtWh...
WhyDoesItHurtWhen iPee's picture

Glenn Beck is a douche-nozzle mouthpiece for the Koch bros just like Rush Limbag, except he has captured the bible-belt evangelical rapture crowd sector of low-info voters.  And yes, he has his trolls on this website.  And yes, he takes some of the truth from here and mixes it into the puke he spews.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 12:14 | 4341121 earnyermoney
earnyermoney's picture

Any you listen to douche-nozzle mouth pieces for Democrats like George Soros, Warren Buffet, and Jamie Dimon. LOL

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!