Guest Post: How I Renounced My US Citizenship And Why (Part 2)

Tyler Durden's picture

Submitted by Doug Casey's International Man,

(Editor's note: See here for Part 1 of this story. The following is a firsthand story of how and why a former US citizen—who kindly shared this information on condition of anonymity—decided to renounce his US citizenship. It's packed with practical advice and priceless insights into this momentous decision. Whether or not you take the ultimate step of renunciation, I believe you will find value from the author's experiences.)

By Citizen of the World

There are two forms for the applicant to fill out: DS-4079—a questionnaire about the applicant’s intentions to give up US citizenship; and DS-4081—a “Statement of Understanding” (that the applicant knows and understands the consequences of giving up US citizenship, and that doing so is irrevocable). DS-4079 is technically only for a “Relinquishment” filing, but may also be requested for a “Renunciation” filing. For a Renunciation proceeding (but not for a Relinquishment), the consular officer also prepares DS-4082, the Oath of Renunciation. The Oath is administered orally, after which the applicant as well as the consular officer signs the DS-4082.

Then the consular officer prepares a DS-4083, Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN). But the applicant will not be given a copy of the CLN at this time, as the application must first be approved by a State Department bureau in Washington. Embassy/consular staff were careful to remind me that my expatriation would not be finalized until these documents were reviewed in Washington—in particular my CLN, and my application was approved in Washington.

The time necessary for that State Department review process apparently has varied quite widely in recent years. Its duration may also depend at least somewhat on the embassy or consular office where one makes their expatriation application (perhaps taking longer from embassies with higher expatriation caseloads). Again, it may be useful to shop around among various embassies/consular offices which may be relatively accessible to an expatriation-seeker. The Isaac Brock website may be a very useful resource in this regard.

In my case, approval of my renunciation was fairly prompt—only about a month. As soon as the embassy or consular office receives confirmation from the State Department in Washington that the applicant’s filing has been approved, the embassy/consular office will provide the applicant an approved, sealed copy of the CLN.

For a renunciation, the effective date of expatriation is the date the Oath of Renunciation was performed; but for a relinquishment, the effective date of expatriation—as far as the State Department is concerned (but not the IRS)—is the date the “potentially expatriating act” (such as obtaining citizenship in another country) occurred. The IRS considers one’s expatriation date to be the date the applicant completes his or her filing with the embassy/consular office—provided only that that filing is subsequently approved by the State Department.

Of course, the “potentially expatriating act” may have occurred quite some time before one’s expatriation filing is made—but in such a case, it’s important for the person seeking to expatriate to avoid availing himself of any significant privileges/benefits of US citizenship, such as voting or using his or her US passport.

The State Department seems to have developed formulaic criteria for whether an applicant really intended to give up citizenship at the time they performed the “potentially expatriating act.” Even if one really did intend at the time one did the “potentially expatriating act” to give up citizenship and declares so in the application, the State Department will apparently refuse to accept that fact, if the person subsequently “continues to avail oneself” of any “significant”—whatever that means—benefits of US citizenship.

Once you’ve succeeded in expatriating, it will be important to be able to produce your CLN at various times in the future, as there will be no other official document you can offer as proof that you really did give up US citizenship. As FATCA and similar measures eventually become widespread (which unfortunately seems much more likely than not), the few remaining foreign financial institutions which have continued to accept US individuals as clients will dwindle further. So providing your CLN will likely become essential to open or even retain already existing financial accounts.

You should probably make several good copies of your CLN, including a high-resolution color scan (quite useful for online purposes). Sometimes it may be important to have some sort of notarization or other official recognition of it. You may want to do that sometime when you’re in the US, as notaries abroad tend to be a lot more expensive, less prevalent, and may refuse to even deal with documents not originating in their own country. Because loss of citizenship is irrevocable, there is logically no expiration to the CLN, so it should not matter when a copy of it is notarized. But alas, bureaucrats everywhere are not well known for their reliance on logic.

Once you’ve been notified that your expatriation application has been approved in Washington, you will be able to begin the process of applying for a visa to enter the US, if you wish to—that is, if you don’t hold a passport from a country on the US visa waiver list. Some people advise waiting for some time before applying for a visa, but there’s no formal requirement to do so.

Do keep in mind that the State Department considers that every applicant for a visitor visa to the US has the burden of proving (to the consular officials where the visa application is made) that the applicant will not try to stay illegally in the US. One might think that an expatriate, having gone to the considerable trouble of giving up citizenship, would be highly unlikely to want to stay too long in the US—but there’s no evidence that the State Department recognizes such an argument. One factor which does lend considerable support to an applicant’s (implied) assertion that they will not try to stay illegally in the US is to have “substantial ties” to another country—residency, social and/or familial ties, etc.

There’s no hard and fast requirement to apply for a US visa only at your “home”-country US embassy or consular office, but it’s generally considered better to do so. For instance, it’s likely easier to provide evidence of one’s substantial ties to that other country from within that country (and easier for the consular staff there to verify that evidence).

One very critical point to understand is that you should NEVER state that you are expatriating to avoid taxes. It could end up complicating matters if you ever intend to return to the US.

If your dossier with the US government states that you renounced for tax purposes, that information should be assumed to be readily available to any number of agencies—including those dealing with visas and immigration—and likely could be used to deny you a visa or otherwise deny entry into the US.

Although the authority to exclude a person from re-entering US on that basis is of questionable validity, and formal regulations on this have never even been proposed or implemented, State Department guidance to overseas posts does explicitly state this as a reason to reject a visa application.

The increasingly great difficulty (largely due to FATCA, FBAR, and Form 8938 reporting requirements) of trying to lead a normal life while living overseas as a US citizen is—and ought to be—reason enough for many to give up their US citizenship.

Some experts advise against giving any reason for why you’re expatriating in any of your interaction with US consular officials at any point during the expatriation process—and particularly in any of your responses on the DS-4079 Questionnaire. But these responses may be useful later on to have established that one did have substantial non-tax-avoidance reasons for expatriating. In any case, it would probably be best not to express opposition to the regime in DC too strongly or explicitly as the reason for expatriating—even if that is a major factor in one’s decision.

Do keep in mind that visa applicants are required to have a face-to-face interview with a US consular agent before a visa can be approved. The application (using form DS-160) must be completed using the State Department’s online system. The interview itself may be conducted in a more or less assembly-line manner, in a bank-teller-window-like setting. The main purpose of the interview requirement seems to be to assess the general nature of the applicant and his or her situation—and to attempt to ferret out any adverse factors for which US officials there might want to reject the application (such as lacking strong enough ties to one’s new home country, or an actual—or even fleeting—thought on the applicant’s part to remain illegally in US).

The lead time for getting the interview appointment will vary considerably by location and time of year, ranging anywhere from just one day up to several weeks, maybe even months. Consult the online appointment calendar of the embassy/consular office where you plan to submit your application and try to avoid applying during whatever peak periods may exist there.

It will probably only take a few business days after successfully completing the interview to receive your passport back with your visa. You’ll be advised at the end of the interview whether or not your application is being recommended for approval; apparently an application is very rarely rejected after a successful interview.

The parameters of any US Visitor visa you may be issued—its validity period (in years), number of entries allowed, and maximum length (in days or months) of each visit—will depend on the passport under which you apply for that visa.

It’s not very easy to locate country-specific State Department policy on these parameters, but this page on the State Department’s website has a selection box to check at least the default visa validity period and default number of entries allowed for any particular country. Unfortunately, this page has no information about the default length of stay permitted for US visa holders of a particular nationality.

(Editor’s Note: See the VisaHQ website to see what kind of visa passport holders from country X need to enter country Y while living in country Z.)

Another point to note: regardless of whether you enter the US under the visa-waiver rules or under your own visa, doing a “visa run” (a quick trip to a nearby country to reset one’s visa or visa waiver period) is not so easy. US Immigration authorities require you to perform a “substantial” departure, meaning you must go at least as far away as continental South America—no quick trips to Canada, Mexico, nor even any Central American or Caribbean country!

Without question, you’re likely to have some fairly keen feelings at least the first few times when you come back to the US as an “alien” (what a horrible word—as if people living elsewhere are some sort of suspicious or even dangerous intruders). When you come back to the US, you’re likely to be quizzed a little bit by the immigration officer (and maybe also the Customs inspector), but in the half-dozen or so times I’ve been back so far, I’ve not been given a hard time at all.

Of course, past performance is no guarantee of future results, so one will always face the risk of more hassles down the road. But given that US border authorities already claim that even US citizens have no Constitutional rights at entry points, there are risks for everyone.

I didn’t expatriate because I expected it to make my life easier overall—it has not made it easier overall (at least for me). Yes, some things are easier now: I can open financial accounts overseas and invest directly in overseas securities, many of which have become effectively off limits to US individuals.

Also, I sleep better at night, relieved to no longer be even an unwilling, passive participant in the ever-escalating wars against the growing assortment of “evils” declared by Washington. And I no longer have to worry about making an honest mistake or omission on any of the ever-increasing IRS reporting requirements. But it’s at least somewhat more difficult to travel—this depends a lot on the other passport(s) one has.

Another significant trap to be wary of is the IRS’s Substantial Presence criteria, which risks you getting sucked back into the whole US tax regime (including all the overseas reporting requirements). This occurs if you stay too long while visiting in the US. Not only must one stay in the US no more than 182 days in any one year, you must also ensure that your weighted average number of days within the US over the most recent three years isn’t too high.

There are several other ways one may be required to continue dealing with the IRS after successfully expatriating, especially if you continue to have any US-based assets. At a minimum, in the first year after expatriation, it will be necessary to file Form 8854.

If you are considered a “covered expatriate”, preparing Form 8854 (and both of its associated 1040 forms) will be at least fairly complicated, and will almost certainly require the services of one of the small number of professionals who are experienced with Form 8854 and the “mark to market exit tax.”

I’m still in the early days of my post-expatriation life—really far too soon to judge with any certainty whether I made the right decision (even according to my own thinking, let alone what anyone else thinks). But so far, I’m satisfied that I did do the right thing—for myself. The “silence implies consent” credo is very deeply ingrained in my outlook; this tends to trump the drawbacks, at least for myself. I find implied endorsement of this thinking in Nassim Taleb’s Antifragile, especially in a number of passages in chapter 22. In the end, expatriation is a momentous decision and will be unique for each person considering it—there’s no one right answer for everyone.

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blindman's picture
Vietnam Era Music Medley ( 18 Songs & Pics From The Vietnam Era)

90's Child's picture

'You didn't renounce that.'

DoChenRollingBearing's picture

We can see from the article (as well as from Part 1) that expatriation is serious business.  A complicated decision.  

You will need to learn the language and like the food.

You will need to change your customs, and be prepared to do without things you currently DO enjoy in the USA.

So many things...


I still think that, in extremis, you could always sneak back into the USA as an illegal...

Whoa Dammit's picture

After seeing that Richard Simmons video expatriation seems worth the effort.

Crawdaddy's picture

DoChen I have come to see you as a voice of reason on expatriation. If I ever get down your way I owe you a beer. I will buy some bearings for my equipment too even though I am a long time Timken man. Don't get your hopes up on retiring on that sale though because I only have 3 pieces of equipment and since is is all Cat it never ever breaks down. Ha!

The Gooch's picture

"Also, I sleep better at night, relieved to no longer be even an unwilling, passive participant in the ever-escalating wars against the growing assortment of “evils” declared by Washington. And I no longer have to worry about making an honest mistake or omission on any of the ever-increasing IRS reporting requirements. But it’s at least somewhat more difficult to travel—this depends a lot on the other passport(s) one has."

So now you're an unwilling, passive participant somewhere else.

Your family must be proud.

Crawdaddy's picture

What post are you replying to Gooch?

DoChenRollingBearing's picture




Our company is in Peru, but my wife and I live here in the USA.  If you ever get down to Peru, you can find our company...

Timken makes great bearings.  Too bad they won't sell to us, and they're too expensive anyway (except for Cat and similar expensive machinery).  The Asians will sell to us, imagine that, they treat us better than the Americans do.

spencer's picture

Timken bearings are available here.

Cull Morgan's picture

I don't think renunciation is really a solution for anyone, except possibly the ultra rich, who can live in a nice bubble while in lifelong exile. Must still be a pretty sad and empty existence, unless you can completely go native?

I do have a second passport, and it's in a country where I'd actually consider living temporarily if things really go to hell in the US. It does give a little extra peace of mind, but it also causes some headaches because it makes you stick out. Flying out of the US on my foreign passport and returning on my US one causes serious raised eyebrows from airline employees. Last time I did that I couldn't even do the self check-in for the return flight because the machine insisted I either scan my visa or green card. I'm American, I have neither of those!

Also, the plantation is really global nowadays. Pretty much any country you'd want to live is a vassal of the US. If they don't already share the complete file they have on you with US authorities, they will in a couple of years.

If you really want to avoid the Eye of Sauron, get your business out of the matrix, probably except a checking account with a local bank or credit union. Stay off god damn social media and find a remote corner of the good ol' US of A and live a quiet life.

cherokeepilot's picture

Talked about the concept of movng to another country with my wife.  The idea seemed okay at first but when considering the loss of convenient contact with family and friends that would result, we nixed the idea.  We have a small farm on which we raise most of our food during the warmer months, have chickens and a few animals that provide meat.  The taxes on the land are not all that outrageous and the farm is paid.  We do live a quiet life except for the noise from my small firing range.  We know most of our neighbors and help each other out when it is needed.  Even though I am fairly fluent in Spanish and could adapt to life in central or south america, I just cannot visualize moving from the U.S.  So, bottom line is that your advice is excellent.

Cull Morgan's picture

I guess we all feel this country sliding further and further down the slippery slope as our fake monetary system is rotting at its core. It's only human nature to fantasize about that one silver bullet solution that will protect us. But a foreign passport is no talisman!

There is no really good solution. But at least a partial solution is to change your lifestyle to allow you to live a life that at least resembles the one we had when the Constitution kept our feudal lords in check. Sounds exactly like what you're already doing.

I hope to live to see things turn around, but that's beyond my horizon for now...

Papasmurf's picture

We do live a quiet life except for the noise from my small firing range.

Become a member.  Problem solved.

twh99's picture

Is your second passport with a European country?  Or someone else?

I have the option of obtaining a second passport based on my family heritage and have been considering it.  However I am leery of taking on any additional tax reporting if that is what it means.

TheRedScourge's picture

Depends which country's citizenship you seek to replace it with. If you go with Canada for example, it's probably not too big an inconvenience.

Son of Loki's picture

Why sneak? Just blend in with the flood of people crossing the RG river every day.

sylviasays's picture
  • Why worry about your illegal immigration status when you easily immigrate to California where illegals get the same (or better) treatment than U.S. citizens? Democrats in California's state legislature have catered to illegals by passing legislation that allows them to obtain driver’s licenses, allows them to practice as lawyers, allows them to work as poll workers, and allows them to qualify for in-state tuition at California’s university and college systems. Now, Democrat State Sen. Ricardo Lara has said that immigration status should be irrelevant if the goal of the federal healthcare law is to provide coverage to the uninsured so he will introduce legislation to involve the state taxpayer's in paying more taxes to provide coverage to those in the country illegally.,0,758...
sylviasays's picture

Why worry about your illegal immigration status when you easily immigrate to California where illegals get the same (or better) treatment than U.S. citizens? Democrats in California's state legislature have catered to illegals by passing legislation that allows them to obtain driver’s licenses, allows them to practice as lawyers, allows them to work as poll workers, and allows them to qualify for in-state tuition at California’s university and college systems. Now, Democrat State Sen. Ricardo Lara has said that immigration status should be irrelevant if the goal of the federal healthcare law is to provide coverage to the uninsured so he will introduce legislation to involve the state taxpayer's in paying more taxes to provide coverage to those in the country illegally.,0,758...

blindman's picture

if you like your renunciation you can
keep your renunciation.

Yen Cross's picture

 You are so full of shit! not the slightest understanding of " Foreign Ownership" 

Yen Cross's picture

 I own land overseas. You all know my love of  Pan-Pacific Asia.  I appreciate the article, but this gentleman was serious about hiding assets.

 He obviously held/has offshore assets , and found it financially beneficial to hold his "spoils" off<shore.

satoshi101's picture

That's the entire point, the forms you file with the IRS, have infinite life, if later they find out you lied they can come after you.

What's the point of giving the IRS a full disclosure of your assets so you can leave?

This stinks like a fucking PRE-NUPITUAL, a game lawyers invented, in a pre-nup you list all your assets, so they can fuck you on exit, if later during divorce they find assets that you didn't list, they get 100%,...

Anybody that does this shit is creating a paper-trail that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

Best like I said, not let them know your gone, and file little to nothing, so they simply forget you exist.

Another thing NEVER said on the god-damn fucking ZH posts, is that the IRS/FBI now have more field-agents working abroad than in the USA, so once you file these papers, then all these field agents are going to be watching you, and should they find something that you didn't list, then your in a world of shit, my understanding is that after your 'renounce' the IRS has 50 years they can come back and fuck you in the ASS.

There is no exit from the USA while your alive.

The best BET is to be INVISIBLE, and make them think your living in a shit-shack in detroit, somewhere where they'll never venture, the worst crime infested place in the USA, make them pity you and forget about you, that is they way to do it.

This fucking bullshit about buying foriegn passports and hiring lawyers and doing 1,000's of pages of paper-work just to make yourself a target.


Me thinks ZH is posting this SHITE for one reason, they want to make people who escape from the USA think its hard, or that you have to give up your CITIZENSHIP, ... no you fucking don't you just walk across the Canada, or Mexico border and never look back.

No fucking paperwork, make them forget about you.


Yen Cross's picture

 I trade for a living. based on your protocal/ You are in the middle east/ persian peninsula region.

  I think that you have bad intentions.

JiminGA's picture

Your post is not only profane, but sorely lacking in knowledge and facts.  Prepping for renunciation can take years and lots of hard work, but it can be done successfully.  And thinking that you can't "disappear" in a foreign land but can within the US is pure folly.

acetinker's picture

My take is that Satoshi's attitude toward all this "expatriation" talk sounds so bizarre it is probably correct.  I didn't down ya' tho.

How many times have I heard "You can't fight a corrupt system by using the tools it provides"?

An associate of mine disappeared himself last year.  He visits from time to time, and seems quite happy.  He dissolved his corporation, got a divorce (tangentially related), closed his bank accounts and credit lines, and seems to do just fine.  He gave up his homestead in the divorce (planned) and is moving along raising the three children in his new digs.

He said he eventually wants to reduce his life/stuff to what he can fit in a duffel bag.  I admire that.

satoshi101's picture

Keep your ass out of the USA,

But make the USA think your ass is theres in the USA

Deposit your social-security check in a USA bank

NEver return to USA, peace and bliss forever


No advantage of giving up your citizenship, other than having 'pledge' all kind of bullshit, and remember its the 'falsehoods' they catch you on paper is how they lock you up in jail, forever.

Don't file any paper, minimize your trail, your very existance, .. don' t let them know your gone, ... just never set foot in NAZI USA.


All these EX-PAT whores selling newsletters are 100% COINTELPRO IRS agents in DRAG.


DavidPierre's picture

"NEver return to USA, peace and bliss forever"

It's been over 43years.

Never missed the United States of Assassination for even one day.

Good advice 101!

Fuck doing all that Nazi paperwork and telling them where you went.



satoshi101's picture

"The best police man is the one in your own mind"

The police state wants nothing more than to track you.

Funny as a ex-pat I know lots of ex NSA guys, they all have one thing in common, they don't carry any electronic device, and they don't alone one in their home, not even by their wives.


This entire notion of exiting the USA and giving the NAZI-USA gubmint 1,000's of pages of INFO and your mobile number abroad, so they can track you forever, ... shit you may as well NOT EVEN LEFT NAZI USA.


KISS principal FOLKS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

Just fucking leave, and leave NO TRAIL, and don't bank in the country you live in, and keep a few banks in the USA, and credit cards active there.

Stay away from big city's anywhere in the world, they're full of USA-NAZI agents, just looking for an EX-PAT to rob and rape.


IMHO just about anywhere in the world, a guy can live off of his social security money deposited into a USA account, its easy to have a PAYPAL attached to an USA account, and another PAYPAL to your foriegn account, and when your SS gets deposited or any US money, you just have paypal send money to yourself , ... very cheap.

I'm talking like $499, which is so small the system doesn't care, but $500 abroad is 2X or more what people make a month, if you can't live on 2X of your fellow humans then you should go back to the USA and live at CAMP--FEMA.


BUYING A FOREIGN PASSPORT what a crock of SHIT, ... everyone of these EX-PAT 'experts' seems to be selling a PACKAGE to fuck people in the ASS. IMHO if you go live in a place for 5-10+ years and your not an asshole, over time they will offer you a passport.


Become invisibile

No phones, so they can't track you, the NSA likes nothing more than to track ex-pats abroad, it gives them a hard-on

Stay away from other ex-pats unless they're old friends, most ex-pats you meet are probably agents of some kind or another abroad, looking for people to fuck. Think like the MAFIA, trust nobody that ain't family.

KISS, again SIMPLE, SIMPLE ... SIMPLE ride a bike, ... dorn't have anything, just keep everything simple and you will never call attention to yourself.

Everywhere is good in the world, if you meld in, learn the language and respect everyone.


The problem with the USA 'police state'  is they have too much money, because of the ability to print UNLIMITED FIAT the COPS have infinite budgets for toys that kill, spy, beat, and  imprison. It's a social problem, when cops(assholes) have unlimited budgets. Go live in a country, where the cops are so fucking poor that they can't buy a gun or a bicycle, and then life is very sweet.


Anusocracy's picture

You have more sense than 99% of the posters here.

The best thing to do is not play their game. Period.

Rock On Roger's picture

Um, doncha wanna use bitcoin for all those social security transfers you're talking about?

That way you'll be sure that you are anonymous?


Stack On

EFNuttin's picture

Everywhere is good in the world, if you meld in, learn the language and respect everyone.

Somebody has been watching too many Disney movies. In my experience, (USA, Latin America, Canada, Europe, and Middle East), government goons will screw with you pretty much everywhere. While technology is currently running roughshod over the laws now in the USA, the laws may just bounce back and catch up to the technology. If a government goon with a HK G-3 assault rifle waves you over to the side of the road in Latin America or the Middle East, there's no telling how you could end up. If you're lucky, you will only be a few hundred bucks/pesos/dinars poorer. If you are not lucky, you may disappear for good. While I'm sure some Americans and especially foreign nationals go through the same thing in the USA, so far this is not the norm. Heck, while the bread and circus can now be legally followed with some weed in parts of the USA, a few blunts could find you locked up forever in many parts of the world.

Personally, I'm too old to become a "stranger in a strange land." However, I don't live in Connecticut.

wisehiney's picture

When the lights go out, the ghosts of my Patriot fathers will be alongside me on this sacred ground. All I need is a fighting chance. If you believe that elsewhere will offer you better refuge, please hurry there. But remember, when the struggle is over is over, the surviving cowards shall not return.

satoshi101's picture

In all of history, the 'surviving cowards' do return  and buy all penny's on the dollar.

Those that stay and 'fight' become either dead or cripples.


IMHO I would never return to the USA for what? It all sucks, everything about the place sucks.

Why would want to live in a country where I would have to sleep with a woman my own age, who can take 50-100% of my life-savings any time she wishes? When I can live in 80% of the world, and sleep with a woman 1/3 my age, and all of my money she will ever get, is that which I give her.

The USA isn't for men, its for girly-boys, its for metro-sexual men, its for the Alan Alda types. Real men live in real country's, where MEN have all the power.


Freddie's picture

WTF is your obession with sleeping with a woman 1/3rd your age?  Yeah I get it but it sounds lame as hell. 

Oh and I am not a metro-sexual and yes I agree about the divorce laws.

satoshi101's picture

Let us guess Freddy Krueger, your 45 years old and are fond of 60 year old women? Right?

I think most of us who first ventured abroad, especially in ASIA quickly realized that MAN is king in these countrys, and we like it.

The problem with women over 45 is they go post-menopausal and become unbearable, with no advantages :(

So, if your a guy over 60, but still feels like he's 20, and your living in a country where a 20 years girl can actually 'love' a a guy 3x her age,... why the fuck not?

The problem of course is most guys don't learn the language, and they hook up with whores, who by definition will NEVER love them, cuz all whores are damaged goods, or otherwise they wouldn't be whores.


Sorry, but real men like women, and you toss around words like 'lame' as if you were under 30, but someday you will be over 60, and you may or may not still have your health, feel like your 30, and if you choose to live like an old person that is your business, but there are many of us that KNOW that the fountain of youth, is keep a young woman in your bed.

Call this 'lame' as you wish, but me still thinks you are what Arnie would call a girly-boy, in spite of your karate-man avatar. Your mind speaks louder than your avatar.



Alethian's picture

Moved to America, retained my previous citizenship. When things go down, America is where I want to be. If any people on Earth can pull through and establish a new and free social order, it's the Americans. That said, I fear the imposition of religious law in a future Free America. The Right has corrupted an entire generation of conservatives.

caustixoid's picture

"If any people on Earth can pull through and establish a new and free social order, it's the Americans".

Was drinking Koolaid part of the Oath ceremony?

Alethian's picture

I didn't say I became a citizen.

Anusocracy's picture

America is living on its past reputation. Those who first came here probably had the highest percentage of individualists and freedom lovers ever in man's history.

Now, it's just a slurry of 49% fascist-conservatives and 49% socialist- liberals with absolutely no hope of reversing that.

Too bad the remaining 2% of the population are like deer frozen in the headlights of the oncoming totalitarian juggernaut.

wisehiney's picture

Yep. Maybe the 98% will get thinned out. With any luck.


wisehiney         Do you really think there is a chance of killing the beast? This defacto government is same that is the parasite in all other countries worldwide. People who blather about not living in US also live in the belly of the beast NO MATTER WHERE THEY LIVE. You pen words of patriotism but I think we would be better off to simply learn to be a free human on the planet. BTW, under defacto law, which is what we have, it could be deadly to answer that you are a citizen one day soon. answering that you are a citizen gives them the right to use defacto corporate (fascist ) law against you.

wisehiney's picture

Gotta be quick this morning, but I believe that .gov will not survive the economic collapse. When there is systemic breakdown, it will be just that. The vast majority of population will be gone within months. Then the rebuild. There are a complex set of variables, so no one can guess the exact scenario.  Have a great weekend.

Alethian's picture

Those numbers are incorrect.

Crawdaddy's picture

Well if that is your conclusion you are already fucked. It is not the right or the left that has brought on this shit storm it is THEM. THEM is controlled by globalists who think they are the only ones qualified to govern. We see them every day masqueradiung as Dems and Repubs or Tories and Liberals. In reality they suck from the same corrupted teat. And they must loose for humainty to return to any semblance of prosperity.

If you think you have it figured out and are in one of their camps (Left or Right) then you are, as Mobius said, the enemy.

Anusocracy's picture

Nobody is qualified to govern, nor is anyone needed to govern.

They are only wanted.

sleigher's picture

A nation of sovereigns.  A nation of kings.

Alethian's picture

In what way did I say that I was on the Left or Right? I said that there are remnants of the Old Right culture remaining that will fight for liberty when the time comes and won't try to impose religious fascism on us all. But my fear is that too many of the Right-Wing leaders will be religious nuts, and their influence will overwhelm the Old Right elements when push comes to shove. 

As to "the globalists" being behind it all, that's too narrow a view of history. The globalists are one power block among many. There are other groups who contribute in their own independent ways to destroying our liberty. Simply blaming the globalists is reductionist and non-objective. 

I grew up elsewhere. I've seen other cultures up close - lived it. America still has a remnant of the original spirit left. Perhaps people should cultivate it in others, whether in person or online, rather than calling everyone idiots, blaming globalists, and pontificating from the armchair. 

Anusocracy's picture

The population of freedom loving individuals has been so diluted that the only likely way of achieving a relatively free society is through a benevolent dictator implementing it.

The 10,000 year war is still ongoing. Nothing has changed.

Alethian's picture

Yeah, that's what the Europeans and Americans have been saying for thousands of years - "If only the benevolent dictator would come and save us smart ones from the majority of dumbasses."

Jeez - Do any of you read? Anything?