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Guest Post: How I Renounced My US Citizenship And Why (Part 2)

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Doug Casey's International Man,

(Editor's note: See here for Part 1 of this story. The following is a firsthand story of how and why a former US citizen—who kindly shared this information on condition of anonymity—decided to renounce his US citizenship. It's packed with practical advice and priceless insights into this momentous decision. Whether or not you take the ultimate step of renunciation, I believe you will find value from the author's experiences.)

By Citizen of the World

There are two forms for the applicant to fill out: DS-4079—a questionnaire about the applicant’s intentions to give up US citizenship; and DS-4081—a “Statement of Understanding” (that the applicant knows and understands the consequences of giving up US citizenship, and that doing so is irrevocable). DS-4079 is technically only for a “Relinquishment” filing, but may also be requested for a “Renunciation” filing. For a Renunciation proceeding (but not for a Relinquishment), the consular officer also prepares DS-4082, the Oath of Renunciation. The Oath is administered orally, after which the applicant as well as the consular officer signs the DS-4082.

Then the consular officer prepares a DS-4083, Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN). But the applicant will not be given a copy of the CLN at this time, as the application must first be approved by a State Department bureau in Washington. Embassy/consular staff were careful to remind me that my expatriation would not be finalized until these documents were reviewed in Washington—in particular my CLN, and my application was approved in Washington.

The time necessary for that State Department review process apparently has varied quite widely in recent years. Its duration may also depend at least somewhat on the embassy or consular office where one makes their expatriation application (perhaps taking longer from embassies with higher expatriation caseloads). Again, it may be useful to shop around among various embassies/consular offices which may be relatively accessible to an expatriation-seeker. The Isaac Brock website may be a very useful resource in this regard.

In my case, approval of my renunciation was fairly prompt—only about a month. As soon as the embassy or consular office receives confirmation from the State Department in Washington that the applicant’s filing has been approved, the embassy/consular office will provide the applicant an approved, sealed copy of the CLN.

For a renunciation, the effective date of expatriation is the date the Oath of Renunciation was performed; but for a relinquishment, the effective date of expatriation—as far as the State Department is concerned (but not the IRS)—is the date the “potentially expatriating act” (such as obtaining citizenship in another country) occurred. The IRS considers one’s expatriation date to be the date the applicant completes his or her filing with the embassy/consular office—provided only that that filing is subsequently approved by the State Department.

Of course, the “potentially expatriating act” may have occurred quite some time before one’s expatriation filing is made—but in such a case, it’s important for the person seeking to expatriate to avoid availing himself of any significant privileges/benefits of US citizenship, such as voting or using his or her US passport.

The State Department seems to have developed formulaic criteria for whether an applicant really intended to give up citizenship at the time they performed the “potentially expatriating act.” Even if one really did intend at the time one did the “potentially expatriating act” to give up citizenship and declares so in the application, the State Department will apparently refuse to accept that fact, if the person subsequently “continues to avail oneself” of any “significant”—whatever that means—benefits of US citizenship.

Once you’ve succeeded in expatriating, it will be important to be able to produce your CLN at various times in the future, as there will be no other official document you can offer as proof that you really did give up US citizenship. As FATCA and similar measures eventually become widespread (which unfortunately seems much more likely than not), the few remaining foreign financial institutions which have continued to accept US individuals as clients will dwindle further. So providing your CLN will likely become essential to open or even retain already existing financial accounts.

You should probably make several good copies of your CLN, including a high-resolution color scan (quite useful for online purposes). Sometimes it may be important to have some sort of notarization or other official recognition of it. You may want to do that sometime when you’re in the US, as notaries abroad tend to be a lot more expensive, less prevalent, and may refuse to even deal with documents not originating in their own country. Because loss of citizenship is irrevocable, there is logically no expiration to the CLN, so it should not matter when a copy of it is notarized. But alas, bureaucrats everywhere are not well known for their reliance on logic.

Once you’ve been notified that your expatriation application has been approved in Washington, you will be able to begin the process of applying for a visa to enter the US, if you wish to—that is, if you don’t hold a passport from a country on the US visa waiver list. Some people advise waiting for some time before applying for a visa, but there’s no formal requirement to do so.

Do keep in mind that the State Department considers that every applicant for a visitor visa to the US has the burden of proving (to the consular officials where the visa application is made) that the applicant will not try to stay illegally in the US. One might think that an expatriate, having gone to the considerable trouble of giving up citizenship, would be highly unlikely to want to stay too long in the US—but there’s no evidence that the State Department recognizes such an argument. One factor which does lend considerable support to an applicant’s (implied) assertion that they will not try to stay illegally in the US is to have “substantial ties” to another country—residency, social and/or familial ties, etc.

There’s no hard and fast requirement to apply for a US visa only at your “home”-country US embassy or consular office, but it’s generally considered better to do so. For instance, it’s likely easier to provide evidence of one’s substantial ties to that other country from within that country (and easier for the consular staff there to verify that evidence).

One very critical point to understand is that you should NEVER state that you are expatriating to avoid taxes. It could end up complicating matters if you ever intend to return to the US.

If your dossier with the US government states that you renounced for tax purposes, that information should be assumed to be readily available to any number of agencies—including those dealing with visas and immigration—and likely could be used to deny you a visa or otherwise deny entry into the US.

Although the authority to exclude a person from re-entering US on that basis is of questionable validity, and formal regulations on this have never even been proposed or implemented, State Department guidance to overseas posts does explicitly state this as a reason to reject a visa application.

The increasingly great difficulty (largely due to FATCA, FBAR, and Form 8938 reporting requirements) of trying to lead a normal life while living overseas as a US citizen is—and ought to be—reason enough for many to give up their US citizenship.

Some experts advise against giving any reason for why you’re expatriating in any of your interaction with US consular officials at any point during the expatriation process—and particularly in any of your responses on the DS-4079 Questionnaire. But these responses may be useful later on to have established that one did have substantial non-tax-avoidance reasons for expatriating. In any case, it would probably be best not to express opposition to the regime in DC too strongly or explicitly as the reason for expatriating—even if that is a major factor in one’s decision.

Do keep in mind that visa applicants are required to have a face-to-face interview with a US consular agent before a visa can be approved. The application (using form DS-160) must be completed using the State Department’s online system. The interview itself may be conducted in a more or less assembly-line manner, in a bank-teller-window-like setting. The main purpose of the interview requirement seems to be to assess the general nature of the applicant and his or her situation—and to attempt to ferret out any adverse factors for which US officials there might want to reject the application (such as lacking strong enough ties to one’s new home country, or an actual—or even fleeting—thought on the applicant’s part to remain illegally in US).

The lead time for getting the interview appointment will vary considerably by location and time of year, ranging anywhere from just one day up to several weeks, maybe even months. Consult the online appointment calendar of the embassy/consular office where you plan to submit your application and try to avoid applying during whatever peak periods may exist there.

It will probably only take a few business days after successfully completing the interview to receive your passport back with your visa. You’ll be advised at the end of the interview whether or not your application is being recommended for approval; apparently an application is very rarely rejected after a successful interview.

The parameters of any US Visitor visa you may be issued—its validity period (in years), number of entries allowed, and maximum length (in days or months) of each visit—will depend on the passport under which you apply for that visa.

It’s not very easy to locate country-specific State Department policy on these parameters, but this page on the State Department’s website has a selection box to check at least the default visa validity period and default number of entries allowed for any particular country. Unfortunately, this page has no information about the default length of stay permitted for US visa holders of a particular nationality.

(Editor’s Note: See the VisaHQ website to see what kind of visa passport holders from country X need to enter country Y while living in country Z.)

Another point to note: regardless of whether you enter the US under the visa-waiver rules or under your own visa, doing a “visa run” (a quick trip to a nearby country to reset one’s visa or visa waiver period) is not so easy. US Immigration authorities require you to perform a “substantial” departure, meaning you must go at least as far away as continental South America—no quick trips to Canada, Mexico, nor even any Central American or Caribbean country!

Without question, you’re likely to have some fairly keen feelings at least the first few times when you come back to the US as an “alien” (what a horrible word—as if people living elsewhere are some sort of suspicious or even dangerous intruders). When you come back to the US, you’re likely to be quizzed a little bit by the immigration officer (and maybe also the Customs inspector), but in the half-dozen or so times I’ve been back so far, I’ve not been given a hard time at all.

Of course, past performance is no guarantee of future results, so one will always face the risk of more hassles down the road. But given that US border authorities already claim that even US citizens have no Constitutional rights at entry points, there are risks for everyone.

I didn’t expatriate because I expected it to make my life easier overall—it has not made it easier overall (at least for me). Yes, some things are easier now: I can open financial accounts overseas and invest directly in overseas securities, many of which have become effectively off limits to US individuals.

Also, I sleep better at night, relieved to no longer be even an unwilling, passive participant in the ever-escalating wars against the growing assortment of “evils” declared by Washington. And I no longer have to worry about making an honest mistake or omission on any of the ever-increasing IRS reporting requirements. But it’s at least somewhat more difficult to travel—this depends a lot on the other passport(s) one has.

Another significant trap to be wary of is the IRS’s Substantial Presence criteria, which risks you getting sucked back into the whole US tax regime (including all the overseas reporting requirements). This occurs if you stay too long while visiting in the US. Not only must one stay in the US no more than 182 days in any one year, you must also ensure that your weighted average number of days within the US over the most recent three years isn’t too high.

There are several other ways one may be required to continue dealing with the IRS after successfully expatriating, especially if you continue to have any US-based assets. At a minimum, in the first year after expatriation, it will be necessary to file Form 8854.

If you are considered a “covered expatriate”, preparing Form 8854 (and both of its associated 1040 forms) will be at least fairly complicated, and will almost certainly require the services of one of the small number of professionals who are experienced with Form 8854 and the “mark to market exit tax.”

I’m still in the early days of my post-expatriation life—really far too soon to judge with any certainty whether I made the right decision (even according to my own thinking, let alone what anyone else thinks). But so far, I’m satisfied that I did do the right thing—for myself. The “silence implies consent” credo is very deeply ingrained in my outlook; this tends to trump the drawbacks, at least for myself. I find implied endorsement of this thinking in Nassim Taleb’s Antifragile, especially in a number of passages in chapter 22. In the end, expatriation is a momentous decision and will be unique for each person considering it—there’s no one right answer for everyone.


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Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:32 | 4342938 blindman
blindman's picture
Vietnam Era Music Medley ( 18 Songs & Pics From The Vietnam Era)

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:38 | 4342955 90's Child
90's Child's picture

'You didn't renounce that.'

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:46 | 4342973 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

We can see from the article (as well as from Part 1) that expatriation is serious business.  A complicated decision.  

You will need to learn the language and like the food.

You will need to change your customs, and be prepared to do without things you currently DO enjoy in the USA.

So many things...


I still think that, in extremis, you could always sneak back into the USA as an illegal...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:50 | 4342983 Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

After seeing that Richard Simmons video expatriation seems worth the effort.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:13 | 4343017 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

DoChen I have come to see you as a voice of reason on expatriation. If I ever get down your way I owe you a beer. I will buy some bearings for my equipment too even though I am a long time Timken man. Don't get your hopes up on retiring on that sale though because I only have 3 pieces of equipment and since is is all Cat it never ever breaks down. Ha!

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:49 | 4343089 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

"Also, I sleep better at night, relieved to no longer be even an unwilling, passive participant in the ever-escalating wars against the growing assortment of “evils” declared by Washington. And I no longer have to worry about making an honest mistake or omission on any of the ever-increasing IRS reporting requirements. But it’s at least somewhat more difficult to travel—this depends a lot on the other passport(s) one has."

So now you're an unwilling, passive participant somewhere else.

Your family must be proud.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:02 | 4343111 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

What post are you replying to Gooch?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:54 | 4343219 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture




Our company is in Peru, but my wife and I live here in the USA.  If you ever get down to Peru, you can find our company...

Timken makes great bearings.  Too bad they won't sell to us, and they're too expensive anyway (except for Cat and similar expensive machinery).  The Asians will sell to us, imagine that, they treat us better than the Americans do.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:59 | 4343343 spencer
spencer's picture

Timken bearings are available here.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:57 | 4343339 Cull Morgan
Cull Morgan's picture

I don't think renunciation is really a solution for anyone, except possibly the ultra rich, who can live in a nice bubble while in lifelong exile. Must still be a pretty sad and empty existence, unless you can completely go native?

I do have a second passport, and it's in a country where I'd actually consider living temporarily if things really go to hell in the US. It does give a little extra peace of mind, but it also causes some headaches because it makes you stick out. Flying out of the US on my foreign passport and returning on my US one causes serious raised eyebrows from airline employees. Last time I did that I couldn't even do the self check-in for the return flight because the machine insisted I either scan my visa or green card. I'm American, I have neither of those!

Also, the plantation is really global nowadays. Pretty much any country you'd want to live is a vassal of the US. If they don't already share the complete file they have on you with US authorities, they will in a couple of years.

If you really want to avoid the Eye of Sauron, get your business out of the matrix, probably except a checking account with a local bank or credit union. Stay off god damn social media and find a remote corner of the good ol' US of A and live a quiet life.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:27 | 4343374 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Just give me a "Spaceport" and I'm there.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:04 | 4343737 cherokeepilot
cherokeepilot's picture

Talked about the concept of movng to another country with my wife.  The idea seemed okay at first but when considering the loss of convenient contact with family and friends that would result, we nixed the idea.  We have a small farm on which we raise most of our food during the warmer months, have chickens and a few animals that provide meat.  The taxes on the land are not all that outrageous and the farm is paid.  We do live a quiet life except for the noise from my small firing range.  We know most of our neighbors and help each other out when it is needed.  Even though I am fairly fluent in Spanish and could adapt to life in central or south america, I just cannot visualize moving from the U.S.  So, bottom line is that your advice is excellent.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:32 | 4343845 Cull Morgan
Cull Morgan's picture

I guess we all feel this country sliding further and further down the slippery slope as our fake monetary system is rotting at its core. It's only human nature to fantasize about that one silver bullet solution that will protect us. But a foreign passport is no talisman!

There is no really good solution. But at least a partial solution is to change your lifestyle to allow you to live a life that at least resembles the one we had when the Constitution kept our feudal lords in check. Sounds exactly like what you're already doing.

I hope to live to see things turn around, but that's beyond my horizon for now...

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 20:47 | 4344942 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

We do live a quiet life except for the noise from my small firing range.

Become a member.  Problem solved.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 13:53 | 4346111 twh99
twh99's picture

Is your second passport with a European country?  Or someone else?

I have the option of obtaining a second passport based on my family heritage and have been considering it.  However I am leery of taking on any additional tax reporting if that is what it means.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 19:05 | 4346836 TheRedScourge
TheRedScourge's picture

Depends which country's citizenship you seek to replace it with. If you go with Canada for example, it's probably not too big an inconvenience.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 02:24 | 4343424 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

Why sneak? Just blend in with the flood of people crossing the RG river every day.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 17:38 | 4344556 sylviasays
sylviasays's picture
  • Why worry about your illegal immigration status when you easily immigrate to California where illegals get the same (or better) treatment than U.S. citizens? Democrats in California's state legislature have catered to illegals by passing legislation that allows them to obtain driver’s licenses, allows them to practice as lawyers, allows them to work as poll workers, and allows them to qualify for in-state tuition at California’s university and college systems. Now, Democrat State Sen. Ricardo Lara has said that immigration status should be irrelevant if the goal of the federal healthcare law is to provide coverage to the uninsured so he will introduce legislation to involve the state taxpayer's in paying more taxes to provide coverage to those in the country illegally.,0,758...
Sat, 01/18/2014 - 17:39 | 4344557 sylviasays
sylviasays's picture

Why worry about your illegal immigration status when you easily immigrate to California where illegals get the same (or better) treatment than U.S. citizens? Democrats in California's state legislature have catered to illegals by passing legislation that allows them to obtain driver’s licenses, allows them to practice as lawyers, allows them to work as poll workers, and allows them to qualify for in-state tuition at California’s university and college systems. Now, Democrat State Sen. Ricardo Lara has said that immigration status should be irrelevant if the goal of the federal healthcare law is to provide coverage to the uninsured so he will introduce legislation to involve the state taxpayer's in paying more taxes to provide coverage to those in the country illegally.,0,758...

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:47 | 4342975 blindman
blindman's picture

if you like your renunciation you can
keep your renunciation.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:53 | 4342990 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 You are so full of shit! not the slightest understanding of " Foreign Ownership" 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:37 | 4342953 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 I own land overseas. You all know my love of  Pan-Pacific Asia.  I appreciate the article, but this gentleman was serious about hiding assets.

 He obviously held/has offshore assets , and found it financially beneficial to hold his "spoils" off<shore.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:15 | 4343024 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

That's the entire point, the forms you file with the IRS, have infinite life, if later they find out you lied they can come after you.

What's the point of giving the IRS a full disclosure of your assets so you can leave?

This stinks like a fucking PRE-NUPITUAL, a game lawyers invented, in a pre-nup you list all your assets, so they can fuck you on exit, if later during divorce they find assets that you didn't list, they get 100%,...

Anybody that does this shit is creating a paper-trail that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

Best like I said, not let them know your gone, and file little to nothing, so they simply forget you exist.

Another thing NEVER said on the god-damn fucking ZH posts, is that the IRS/FBI now have more field-agents working abroad than in the USA, so once you file these papers, then all these field agents are going to be watching you, and should they find something that you didn't list, then your in a world of shit, my understanding is that after your 'renounce' the IRS has 50 years they can come back and fuck you in the ASS.

There is no exit from the USA while your alive.

The best BET is to be INVISIBLE, and make them think your living in a shit-shack in detroit, somewhere where they'll never venture, the worst crime infested place in the USA, make them pity you and forget about you, that is they way to do it.

This fucking bullshit about buying foriegn passports and hiring lawyers and doing 1,000's of pages of paper-work just to make yourself a target.


Me thinks ZH is posting this SHITE for one reason, they want to make people who escape from the USA think its hard, or that you have to give up your CITIZENSHIP, ... no you fucking don't you just walk across the Canada, or Mexico border and never look back.

No fucking paperwork, make them forget about you.


Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:21 | 4343036 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 I trade for a living. based on your protocal/ You are in the middle east/ persian peninsula region.

  I think that you have bad intentions.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:37 | 4343593 negative rates
negative rates's picture

It is, these people should be fighting like hell for a fair tax system, not running away like cowards.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:58 | 4343807 JiminGA
JiminGA's picture

Your post is not only profane, but sorely lacking in knowledge and facts.  Prepping for renunciation can take years and lots of hard work, but it can be done successfully.  And thinking that you can't "disappear" in a foreign land but can within the US is pure folly.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 20:13 | 4344880 acetinker
acetinker's picture

My take is that Satoshi's attitude toward all this "expatriation" talk sounds so bizarre it is probably correct.  I didn't down ya' tho.

How many times have I heard "You can't fight a corrupt system by using the tools it provides"?

An associate of mine disappeared himself last year.  He visits from time to time, and seems quite happy.  He dissolved his corporation, got a divorce (tangentially related), closed his bank accounts and credit lines, and seems to do just fine.  He gave up his homestead in the divorce (planned) and is moving along raising the three children in his new digs.

He said he eventually wants to reduce his life/stuff to what he can fit in a duffel bag.  I admire that.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:42 | 4342963 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Keep your ass out of the USA,

But make the USA think your ass is theres in the USA

Deposit your social-security check in a USA bank

NEver return to USA, peace and bliss forever


No advantage of giving up your citizenship, other than having 'pledge' all kind of bullshit, and remember its the 'falsehoods' they catch you on paper is how they lock you up in jail, forever.

Don't file any paper, minimize your trail, your very existance, .. don' t let them know your gone, ... just never set foot in NAZI USA.


All these EX-PAT whores selling newsletters are 100% COINTELPRO IRS agents in DRAG.


Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:14 | 4343008 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

"NEver return to USA, peace and bliss forever"

It's been over 43years.

Never missed the United States of Assassination for even one day.

Good advice 101!

Fuck doing all that Nazi paperwork and telling them where you went.



Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:32 | 4343056 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

"The best police man is the one in your own mind"

The police state wants nothing more than to track you.

Funny as a ex-pat I know lots of ex NSA guys, they all have one thing in common, they don't carry any electronic device, and they don't alone one in their home, not even by their wives.


This entire notion of exiting the USA and giving the NAZI-USA gubmint 1,000's of pages of INFO and your mobile number abroad, so they can track you forever, ... shit you may as well NOT EVEN LEFT NAZI USA.


KISS principal FOLKS, Keep It Simple Stupid.

Just fucking leave, and leave NO TRAIL, and don't bank in the country you live in, and keep a few banks in the USA, and credit cards active there.

Stay away from big city's anywhere in the world, they're full of USA-NAZI agents, just looking for an EX-PAT to rob and rape.


IMHO just about anywhere in the world, a guy can live off of his social security money deposited into a USA account, its easy to have a PAYPAL attached to an USA account, and another PAYPAL to your foriegn account, and when your SS gets deposited or any US money, you just have paypal send money to yourself , ... very cheap.

I'm talking like $499, which is so small the system doesn't care, but $500 abroad is 2X or more what people make a month, if you can't live on 2X of your fellow humans then you should go back to the USA and live at CAMP--FEMA.


BUYING A FOREIGN PASSPORT what a crock of SHIT, ... everyone of these EX-PAT 'experts' seems to be selling a PACKAGE to fuck people in the ASS. IMHO if you go live in a place for 5-10+ years and your not an asshole, over time they will offer you a passport.


Become invisibile

No phones, so they can't track you, the NSA likes nothing more than to track ex-pats abroad, it gives them a hard-on

Stay away from other ex-pats unless they're old friends, most ex-pats you meet are probably agents of some kind or another abroad, looking for people to fuck. Think like the MAFIA, trust nobody that ain't family.

KISS, again SIMPLE, SIMPLE ... SIMPLE ride a bike, ... dorn't have anything, just keep everything simple and you will never call attention to yourself.

Everywhere is good in the world, if you meld in, learn the language and respect everyone.


The problem with the USA 'police state'  is they have too much money, because of the ability to print UNLIMITED FIAT the COPS have infinite budgets for toys that kill, spy, beat, and  imprison. It's a social problem, when cops(assholes) have unlimited budgets. Go live in a country, where the cops are so fucking poor that they can't buy a gun or a bicycle, and then life is very sweet.


Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:38 | 4343068 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

You have more sense than 99% of the posters here.

The best thing to do is not play their game. Period.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:26 | 4343511 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

Um, doncha wanna use bitcoin for all those social security transfers you're talking about?

That way you'll be sure that you are anonymous?


Stack On

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 17:44 | 4344584 EFNuttin
EFNuttin's picture

Everywhere is good in the world, if you meld in, learn the language and respect everyone.

Somebody has been watching too many Disney movies. In my experience, (USA, Latin America, Canada, Europe, and Middle East), government goons will screw with you pretty much everywhere. While technology is currently running roughshod over the laws now in the USA, the laws may just bounce back and catch up to the technology. If a government goon with a HK G-3 assault rifle waves you over to the side of the road in Latin America or the Middle East, there's no telling how you could end up. If you're lucky, you will only be a few hundred bucks/pesos/dinars poorer. If you are not lucky, you may disappear for good. While I'm sure some Americans and especially foreign nationals go through the same thing in the USA, so far this is not the norm. Heck, while the bread and circus can now be legally followed with some weed in parts of the USA, a few blunts could find you locked up forever in many parts of the world.

Personally, I'm too old to become a "stranger in a strange land." However, I don't live in Connecticut.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:45 | 4342971 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

When the lights go out, the ghosts of my Patriot fathers will be alongside me on this sacred ground. All I need is a fighting chance. If you believe that elsewhere will offer you better refuge, please hurry there. But remember, when the struggle is over is over, the surviving cowards shall not return.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:06 | 4343009 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

In all of history, the 'surviving cowards' do return  and buy all penny's on the dollar.

Those that stay and 'fight' become either dead or cripples.


IMHO I would never return to the USA for what? It all sucks, everything about the place sucks.

Why would want to live in a country where I would have to sleep with a woman my own age, who can take 50-100% of my life-savings any time she wishes? When I can live in 80% of the world, and sleep with a woman 1/3 my age, and all of my money she will ever get, is that which I give her.

The USA isn't for men, its for girly-boys, its for metro-sexual men, its for the Alan Alda types. Real men live in real country's, where MEN have all the power.


Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:33 | 4343060 Freddie
Freddie's picture

WTF is your obession with sleeping with a woman 1/3rd your age?  Yeah I get it but it sounds lame as hell. 

Oh and I am not a metro-sexual and yes I agree about the divorce laws.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:35 | 4343176 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Let us guess Freddy Krueger, your 45 years old and are fond of 60 year old women? Right?

I think most of us who first ventured abroad, especially in ASIA quickly realized that MAN is king in these countrys, and we like it.

The problem with women over 45 is they go post-menopausal and become unbearable, with no advantages :(

So, if your a guy over 60, but still feels like he's 20, and your living in a country where a 20 years girl can actually 'love' a a guy 3x her age,... why the fuck not?

The problem of course is most guys don't learn the language, and they hook up with whores, who by definition will NEVER love them, cuz all whores are damaged goods, or otherwise they wouldn't be whores.


Sorry, but real men like women, and you toss around words like 'lame' as if you were under 30, but someday you will be over 60, and you may or may not still have your health, feel like your 30, and if you choose to live like an old person that is your business, but there are many of us that KNOW that the fountain of youth, is keep a young woman in your bed.

Call this 'lame' as you wish, but me still thinks you are what Arnie would call a girly-boy, in spite of your karate-man avatar. Your mind speaks louder than your avatar.



Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:47 | 4343598 negative rates
negative rates's picture

We call people like you ignorant, you don't know how a women works, you don't have the tools to service her, then when you are in private and frustrated probably slap her on butt when she needs more. In public everything is fine until about 3rd drink when the arrogance of your loftyness and animal spirits has to emerge, loudly. Your type is scheduled for extinction once she has any say in the matter. 

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:09 | 4343013 Alethian
Alethian's picture

Moved to America, retained my previous citizenship. When things go down, America is where I want to be. If any people on Earth can pull through and establish a new and free social order, it's the Americans. That said, I fear the imposition of religious law in a future Free America. The Right has corrupted an entire generation of conservatives.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:17 | 4343029 caustixoid
caustixoid's picture

"If any people on Earth can pull through and establish a new and free social order, it's the Americans".

Was drinking Koolaid part of the Oath ceremony?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:29 | 4343050 Alethian
Alethian's picture

I didn't say I became a citizen.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:06 | 4343120 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

America is living on its past reputation. Those who first came here probably had the highest percentage of individualists and freedom lovers ever in man's history.

Now, it's just a slurry of 49% fascist-conservatives and 49% socialist- liberals with absolutely no hope of reversing that.

Too bad the remaining 2% of the population are like deer frozen in the headlights of the oncoming totalitarian juggernaut.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:29 | 4343165 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

Yep. Maybe the 98% will get thinned out. With any luck.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:46 | 4343861 NIHILIST CIPHER

wisehiney         Do you really think there is a chance of killing the beast? This defacto government is same that is the parasite in all other countries worldwide. People who blather about not living in US also live in the belly of the beast NO MATTER WHERE THEY LIVE. You pen words of patriotism but I think we would be better off to simply learn to be a free human on the planet. BTW, under defacto law, which is what we have, it could be deadly to answer that you are a citizen one day soon. answering that you are a citizen gives them the right to use defacto corporate (fascist ) law against you.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 12:18 | 4343912 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

Gotta be quick this morning, but I believe that .gov will not survive the economic collapse. When there is systemic breakdown, it will be just that. The vast majority of population will be gone within months. Then the rebuild. There are a complex set of variables, so no one can guess the exact scenario.  Have a great weekend.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 02:01 | 4343403 Alethian
Alethian's picture

Those numbers are incorrect.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:19 | 4343143 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

Well if that is your conclusion you are already fucked. It is not the right or the left that has brought on this shit storm it is THEM. THEM is controlled by globalists who think they are the only ones qualified to govern. We see them every day masqueradiung as Dems and Repubs or Tories and Liberals. In reality they suck from the same corrupted teat. And they must loose for humainty to return to any semblance of prosperity.

If you think you have it figured out and are in one of their camps (Left or Right) then you are, as Mobius said, the enemy.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:01 | 4343239 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Nobody is qualified to govern, nor is anyone needed to govern.

They are only wanted.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 08:58 | 4343681 sleigher
sleigher's picture

A nation of sovereigns.  A nation of kings.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 02:05 | 4343410 Alethian
Alethian's picture

In what way did I say that I was on the Left or Right? I said that there are remnants of the Old Right culture remaining that will fight for liberty when the time comes and won't try to impose religious fascism on us all. But my fear is that too many of the Right-Wing leaders will be religious nuts, and their influence will overwhelm the Old Right elements when push comes to shove. 

As to "the globalists" being behind it all, that's too narrow a view of history. The globalists are one power block among many. There are other groups who contribute in their own independent ways to destroying our liberty. Simply blaming the globalists is reductionist and non-objective. 

I grew up elsewhere. I've seen other cultures up close - lived it. America still has a remnant of the original spirit left. Perhaps people should cultivate it in others, whether in person or online, rather than calling everyone idiots, blaming globalists, and pontificating from the armchair. 

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 12:40 | 4343961 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The population of freedom loving individuals has been so diluted that the only likely way of achieving a relatively free society is through a benevolent dictator implementing it.

The 10,000 year war is still ongoing. Nothing has changed.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 03:36 | 4345485 Alethian
Alethian's picture

Yeah, that's what the Europeans and Americans have been saying for thousands of years - "If only the benevolent dictator would come and save us smart ones from the majority of dumbasses."

Jeez - Do any of you read? Anything? 

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:48 | 4343792 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

Thanks for validating my earlier point.

"THEM" is pretty much everywhere.



Sun, 01/19/2014 - 03:35 | 4345484 Alethian
Alethian's picture

Yeah, they're everywhere. Coming to get you. 

Spoken like a true internet-dweller.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:46 | 4343329 Blano
Blano's picture

Religious law?  Sheesh this country is going so far left there may not be any religious types here in 50 years or so.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:18 | 4343361 PrecipiceWatching
PrecipiceWatching's picture

Yeah, I thought the same thing, but don't waste my time arguing with the anti-religion punks.

The post started out well, but then closed with an utterly ridiculous last two sentences.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 03:33 | 4343414 Alethian
Alethian's picture

I think you misunderstand the last two sentences. I was suggesting that if we ever get to the point when the Right, either Old or New, can wrest some degree of freedom from the fascists, the greatest internal threat will then be the corrupting influence of the Theocrats. They have already succeeded in rewriting American history according to their own ideology. None of this dismisses the importance of the Left. But there are no elements on the Left that can serve as allies in the fight for liberty - they are essentially misguided. The Right is wrong about a lot, but the common person has often be persuaded over time and with great effort. 


EDIT: Disagrees without argument. This site really is infested with a bunch of ignorant fools. It's a shame that the quality of the posts doesn't attract more intelligent commentators.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 02:07 | 4343412 Alethian
Alethian's picture

This country will be fractured in 50 years. The non-Leftist areas will be dominated by predominantly religious reactionaries with no comprehension of the complicated history of the country.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 09:09 | 4343693 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture


I'm really worried about the Knights of Columbus kidnapping children and baptizing them Catholic.

That will bring the Baptists out of the woodwork and all hell will break out.

Then the Rastafarians sneak in and take over the whole works.

The Mormons may go nuclear.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 03:30 | 4345479 Alethian
Alethian's picture

Do you all realize that you're proving my point about the ignorance on the Right? 

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:49 | 4343477 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

Speaking as an American, we suck.  Place no faith in us.  A handful have some understanding of liberty.  But most are the worst kind of brainless, bleating sheep.  Get your ass out of here while you can.  The "conservatives" and their vengeful god are worse than than anything the "progressives" can unleash.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 03:32 | 4345481 Alethian
Alethian's picture

This has nothing to do with having faith in anyone. The American people are dumb, but there are areas that are safer and have more future prospects than anywhere in Europe.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 21:51 | 4342985 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

     Ask Blindman/  He'll set you straight.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:02 | 4343003 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

At least one could out run the Nazis.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:36 | 4343066 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

over 60% of the USA public are on the NAZI payroll

run out over 60%

I don't think so :(


Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:04 | 4343006 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

Seems really complicated. Running from something? Do you like little boys or have you committed a murder. Otherwise, you are making life way too difficult. But I do wish you luck in you new adopted homeland.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:16 | 4343025 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Hit the road Jack

and don't cha come back

no more, no more, more,

hit the road Jack

and don't cha come back no more

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:16 | 4343026 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

     iT'S AMAZING THE IGNORANCE, of foreign land ownership.  Have any of you watched "Transporter 2&3 ?"

  Do you think those properties just evaporated "out of thin air" for the scene?

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:40 | 4343070 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Almost all 3rd world country's on earth, don't let foreigners come in and buy land, this would mean that rich people could come and enslave them.

If you must own land, then stay in the USA and pay property tax until you die.


I'm all for owning land when young and investing, but once you get old, and especially if you become an ex-pat you had better give up the notion of owning land.

Think about Marc Faber, ALL his money is tied up in his wifes name, That is NOT smart, that is fucking STUPID. I pity that man. Sure on paper SHE  is rich, but MARC is not, only in his own mind does he have ASSETS, which is probably why he's still pimping newsletters.


Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:45 | 4343080 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 You're an "special needs" adult. Even "Phone Clown" has problems with you.

 It's one thing to be intelligent, and another to hit ones head on a brick wall<

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:13 | 4343263 SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

i agree about giving up the notion of owning land.  but for different reasons.  youre a fucking failure moron.  my grandkids will own the land.  ill see to it.  youll fucking run like a little bitch your whole life.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:02 | 4343444 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 I doubt that you've ever had the decision.  You're a retired engineer. Never got good at much of anything.\

  Had iced tea in some diner for 10 years and discussed "wind tunnel tests",  am I wrong?

  Have you ever driven a Corvette?  I've owned many Ferrari's.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:49 | 4343600 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Tick Tock, you don't see the Clock.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:42 | 4343041 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I do hope that others without the need, don't follow this chap.  I am guessing that he apparently has much assets to hide.

I know of expats with minimal assets thinking of the same path.  It would be better for them if the US IRS stopped playing games with their livelihood and made tax filing life easier for them. 

They are one of the best ways to fight the impression of the "Ugly American" so prevalent nowadays....

Flame me asshats who typify the Ugly American

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:45 | 4343077 PrecipiceWatching
PrecipiceWatching's picture

Americans have hardly cornered the market on "Ugly".

By whatever metric you wish to deploy.

Look at the rest of the world.  ALL of it.

Particularly those little corners of smug condescension.


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:06 | 4343082 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Don't disagree with your thoughts re others being Ugly as well.  Never mentioned the phrase cornered (only jerks put words in others mouths), but still think we have a lot of dicks here.

I think that the guys who will leave will be rich guys trying to avoid the taxation of the US.  Normal expats will probably just put up with the extra reporting hassles and just deal with it.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:13 | 4343357 PrecipiceWatching
PrecipiceWatching's picture

No more dicks than anywhere else, shithead.

Now you go off and worry, fuss and fret your "jerk" self about the absolutely unfounded and ignorant perception of the "Ugly American".

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:27 | 4343375 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I find these discussions interesting and I see merit on both the fight or flight sides of the argument.

I just finished another successful response to an an IRS challenge to my taxes. The IRS or my state send me a challenge every year now. They are doing document matches now. I am not sure if it is automated or done by a person. I suspect someone sold them a program to automate it and it has many flaws. Those letters, arrogant, demanding and authoritative honestly make we want to go smack down the nearest IRS fascist agent I can find. They are written to subjects, the ruled, not to fellow citizens. You know if you have gotten one. Fortunately, my cut rate accountant wrote the reply. My reply would get me audited for the rest of my life. And this is the thing that bugs me. Once you become libertarian and start to think like a free person this bothers you more than most of your fellow drone citizens. I naturally want to fight. I want to tell the IRS, "Come and get it." similar to the Spartans at Thermopolye. My end would certainly be the same.

In the interest of brevity the choice boils down to this for me:

Fight: My natural inclination. Fight can be political and trying to get libertarian and Constitutional types elected and hope one is strong enough to lead a tidal change. That is a long shot but I actually think there is an undercurrent of energy that if properly tapped and led has a possibility of success. However, I think the majority of Republicans and all Democrats are heavily invested in the current bureaucratic State. There is also a physical fight and that will only come with calamity. All these pseudo-brave posters who advocate fighting as an individual are delusional. Yeah, some guy with nothing to lose and a case of the ass could make a public futile stand but it is not practical in terms of changing anything. Remember the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building?  No one will come to help you. If I tell the IRS to come get the money, they will and will make an example as a lesson to others. No neighbor will help... even those who might agree.

Flight: This is the most practical choice in history. I have many friends who are seriously considering leaving the country whether it is at retirement or as soon as practicable. Pilgrims left Europe while some led revolutions. Cubans get on boats to Florida rather than try to take on Castro. Mexicans come across the border illegally but a few called "vigilantes" more properly militia fight. Flight is something you can do on your own and do not need partners in. It avoids or minimizes confrontation with the State who has all the guns and the laws, which are written to protect and empower the State. Since virtually all states have gone leftist they like each other more than their own escaping citizens so finding a place must be done with care.

We live in the era of the permission state. Nothing happens in the USA without government permission and now your life must be fully documented and justified to the State, most notably through the fascist, corrupt, thug IRS. The FBI, NSA, TSA, DHS, IRS and a dozen others agencies are coordinating. Obama is the guy to give them permission. It actually hurts me in my soul to realize that in the USA we are regarded as property and servants of the state, not the other way around. Most have been conditioned to accept this and this is the natural course of history. Your job, if productive is to produce revenue for the state and it's central planners.

I work in a heavily, insanely regulated industry that gets down to when you can use highlighters and the word "new". Our industry lobbiests are ineffective and frankly lobbying is just a Congressional-Mafia protection racket. You give money and get beaten less, but you will pay up. More regs gives more reasons for political donations. Regs give power over all of life.

Running appeals to me more each year.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 02:06 | 4343411 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture


Freedom Guy +1


the State sends my city notification of 1099 for trading profits as I trade out of a LP. The City tries to collect a business tax on my gross sales. so far, they have been satisified with a simple explanation, but I wonder at some point if they do not become more depserate and ... so yes, it is coordinated. 

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:34 | 4343466 Musashi Miyamoto
Musashi Miyamoto's picture

Check out the Freedom State Project, kind of a mix between fight and flight when you look at it in a certain light. -

They have have some decent momentum and have been elected to several local and state offices. New Hampshire is one of the most libertarian state in the USA.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:56 | 4343872 Cull Morgan
Cull Morgan's picture

I hear ya! Plenty to run from, problem is where do you run to?

Living abroad with a foreign citizenship used to give you some protection from US authorities. However, that protection is RAPIDLY evaporating. Pretty much every country where you'd have any kind of quality of life is the prison bitch of the US. They will giddily sell you out hoping to score some brownie points.

Renunciation might help some, but opens another can of worms.

Sun, 01/19/2014 - 05:06 | 4345524 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

Use your imagination. I can tell that you have one. Besides the "300" live forever.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:42 | 4343073 muleskinner
muleskinner's picture

Who in the hell wants to dink around with renunciating their citizenship?  Must have a lot of time on your hands to do the machinations of renunciation.

Besides, you have to find a country and those in charge will want something if you have plenty of money, that something would be money, if you know what I mean.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.



Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:54 | 4343098 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Exactly the LAST fucking you do abroad is "HI I'm RICH",'take care of me'...

I have said, you keep your money in a 3rd  country, the 1st would be the USA, for some basic banking, the 2nd country is where you live, but you always want to be not much richer than the poorest guy in the village.

Whenever you live abroad if people think your rich, you make yourself a target.

Great idea, go to PANAMA and tell the corrupt gubmint your RICH and buy a passport, they will nickel and dime you to death, cuz they know they have caught a FISH

Best to stay away from gubmint officials no matter where on earth you live

Again don't bring your money to the country you live, cuz that way they can't get your money, ... most country's make it easy to bring it in, but hard to take it out, thus the 3rd country should be like swiss or singapore,... fluid


All posts on ZH are almost always some bitch selling a newsletter, will it certainly appears that way :(


Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:06 | 4343117 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

(there ain't enough money in the world to get me to live like such a chickenshit)

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:27 | 4343158 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Live like such chickenshit might be coming to visit you.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:51 | 4343601 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Don't quit your day job, and change your name to Manule Labor.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:42 | 4343075 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

       Cheap chineeze hookerz. We fuky suky for passport.

Fri, 01/17/2014 - 22:53 | 4343094 Rusty Shorts
Fri, 01/17/2014 - 23:38 | 4343181 August
August's picture

Any word yet on the best source for high-quality fake CLNs? 

After all, you only have to fool lower-level bank employees.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:07 | 4343251 SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

stickin it to the man by filig paperwork,  wow youre such a badass.  fucking failure with no family, no pussy, no friends, and no roots.  gtfo.  youre a complete failure.  usa not perfect.  but no better place to carve out a legacy.  the old bitter failure fucks on this website who talk about asian women are so pathetic

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:43 | 4343327 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

OK then tough guy, what have you done to stick it to the man other than whine like a little bitch?  At least the subject of this article did something.  What have you done?

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:10 | 4343341 SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

ill just paste the next to last comment i made below.  hyperbole?  maybe.  but im obviously smart enough to have found my way here.  and youll have to take my word that this is indeed a fact:  after having the alphabet boys kick down my door and having felony drug charges dropped, maybe i do hold a bit of a grudge.  dont believe it.  come to O-HIGH-O and try me motherfucker.  pussy ass fight club.  but im staying right here nigga

just wanted to tell you about my newest 357 loads.  Any hotter and I might as well just grab the 44.  Going to see how much steel I can penetrate with them.  Def some real cop-killer shit.

And dont you worry about me.  I can shoot just fine.  The sights on my 6" Colt 357 look like fucking goal posts to me at this point.  It has a fucking hair trigger in single action.  All one motion; cock it back, raise it up, stay calm, put em in the sites, exhale, and BOOM!  Hit em so hard he'll be dead before he hits the ground.  Motherfucking cop never had a chance with that little glock 9. 

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:50 | 4343480 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

So all you can do is boast about your reloading skills?  Pathetic.  Study our revolution, learn about how and why it was successful (hint, it had shit to do with weaponry) and you stand a chance of redemption.  Murder shall not make you free.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:43 | 4343521 August
August's picture

>>>Study our revolution, learn about how and why it was successful (hint, it had shit to do with weaponry)

The American Revolution was successful due to powerful motivation of the elite (and non-elite as well) in the form of "free" western land.

Today's prospective American Revolutionary must ask himself whether and how a large fraction of today's elite can be motivated to throw off the current form of tyranny.  The answer is that they probably cannot be so motivated; the loyalty of that class has already been purchased, and no one outbids the banksters.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:20 | 4343505 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

If you like your bullets, then when your starving you can eat your bullets.

Bullets are great when there is food around, cuz you can trade bullets for food and fuel, but it don't take long before the fuel & food is gone, ... and then you got to eat your bullets, or shoot your companion, or dog, ... and eat him :)


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:44 | 4343858 SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

if it comes to that, ill be having your ass medium rare

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:28 | 4343295 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.  Oh, and be careful what you say in public. Just sayin'.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:41 | 4343318 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

This is good information but more than I need to know.  If I leave I'm not coming back.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 09:08 | 4343690 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

It's actually pretty simplistic considering the ex-pat supposedly put so may years into planning his escape... The "covered expat" issue is easily avoided with proper prior preparation (if one isn't a high earning wage slave). One simply has to reduce their AGI below the threshold for 5 years, which is not difficult if one is a business/asset owner who lives reasonably and has savings. The net worth test is simply a make-work obstacle to be overcome by accountants and lawyers who have previously specialized in making balance sheets appear "better" than they are in reality... (assets - LIABILITIES = net worth) Then there is the .001% favorite estate planning method of "giving it all away" -

This whole .gov clusterfuck is simply the fascist state trying to keep the dumb money and low info libertarians on the plantation.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:43 | 4343319 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

It's comments like these that show the populists have run off anyone that has any common sense on this site, and why I spend progressively less time here as the days go by.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 00:57 | 4343340 spencer
spencer's picture

People don't realize many immigrants coming into the USA are actually expatriating from their countries.

It is not an uncommon situation. The only difference seems to be the direction of the migration.

Anyway - it is worth observing, because when the dollar finally collapses - the number of people leaving the US will definitelly increase.

Once abroad - they will find out how hard it is to comply with tax law and reporting.

This process will therefore intensify and more people will start renouncing their citizenship.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:13 | 4343356 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Yes, as more people find career opportunities where the growth is (outside of the US), they will become more familiar with the stupid taxation rules for US expats.....


Of course I would be remiss to not needle the moronic subset of readers of ZH who will never recognize anything....

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:52 | 4343481 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

I have an employee on a visa who wants a green card and citizenship.  I try to talk him out of it all the time.  At the end of the day I guess it's all relative.  Our hot mess may seem stable to someone outside the bubble.


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:23 | 4343371 New American Re...
New American Revolution's picture

Pussy, the rest of us are going to stay and fight.  And when we win, you're not welcome back.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 01:53 | 4343394 indio007
indio007's picture

Citizenship is a legal fiction so there is nothing to renounce.

 A body politique (being invisible) can as a body politique neither make nor take homage: Vide 33 Hen. 8. tit. Fealty, Brook. 5. In fide,94 in faith or ligeance nothing ought to be feigned, but ought to be ex fide non ficta.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 02:55 | 4343440 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

   You idiots no nothing about expatriation.. What about your cars, furniture/heirlooms?

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:03 | 4343445 JustUsChickensHere
JustUsChickensHere's picture

When you leave ... leave every posession .... surprisingly liberating.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:08 | 4343492 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 You are an moron! I'm trying to help you!

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:48 | 4343534 Musashi Miyamoto
Musashi Miyamoto's picture

If the most valuable things in your life can be bought with money then you are the one that needs help. Let go of your furniture my friend, you are more a slave to the system than the rest of us.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:14 | 4343498 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

That goes without saying, but once you don't have your shit, you realize you don't need any shit, and then your burn rate really goes down.

What's really nice is getting rid of the auto's and shit that goes along with living in the USA. Like insurance, and fucking bullshit, ...DMV, paperwork, billls, ...

I have no bills, can you even imagine that? No fucking bills.

In the USA every month I had to dread bill time, just the fucking act of filling out all the checks and shit, and then the fucking yearly taxes, ... oh my fucking god that was a night mare. 1,000's of little  pieces of paper all over the floors all sorted,... every fucking year, and then into quicken, and off to the IRS :( What a fucking KLUSTERFUCK life is in the USA.

Once you leave the USA and all the bullshit that goes along living there like parking tickets and radar speeding traps ... it never fucking ends.


I might add too, once you don't have shit or stuff, then crime is a non-existant thought ...

What's important? Family, music, walking, riding a bike .. LIVING ... getting a buzz at night with friends, ... playing with children, .. laughing... never seeing a cop or an asshole ...


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:53 | 4343602 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Runnin kero thru yer veins again and shootin off yer mouth, er u from RI?

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 08:29 | 4343664 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

2 Years, 3 weeks, which means another ZH insider IMMORTAL brown-nosing shit eater,... enough said, .. to know anybody on ZH that last's more than 2 weeks without deletion is to know a NSA/CIA troll.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:27 | 4343459 Musashi Miyamoto
Musashi Miyamoto's picture

“You buy furniture. You tell yourself, this is the last sofa I will ever need in my life. Buy the sofa, then for a couple years you're satisfied that no matter what goes wrong, at least you've got your sofa issue handled. Then the right set of dishes. Then the perfect bed. The drapes. The rug. Then you're trapped in your lovely nest, and the things you used to own, now they own you.”

- Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:50 | 4343479 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

That's funny, here in ASIA we have empty rooms and we cook and shit outside of the sleeping area.

Furniture what the fuck is that?

I suspect its like the western toilet where a white man sits and pretends he's a king, in ASIA you squat, and that is why asian men and women are much stronger than westerners and don't have bowel problems.


I would say the most terrrible thing about the USA would be the loss of your fucking TV, ... that's why you should have weaned your ass off of TV 50 years ago.


OWN NOTHING, and then nothing can own you.


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:09 | 4343494 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture



Less is More.

More is Less.

More or Less!

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:41 | 4343527 Musashi Miyamoto
Musashi Miyamoto's picture

You only have power over people so long as you don’t take everything away from them. But when you’ve robbed a man of everything he’s no longer in your power — he’s free again. - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn


I desire to be free of all constraints and in my endeavor i cast away all thing binding me to law and lifestyle. physical possessions are chains constricting me and binding me to society. For me to walk away, that is my freedom, so that nobody can threaten to fine me or to evict me or to sue me, All I value is contained within my body and my mind, the cloths on my back and one backpack with small comforts is all I own and all I need. Nothing can hold me and nothing can stop me. I am a freeman with nothing to lose...

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:54 | 4343604 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Why does Saturn have 3 rings?? Cause Uranus has two.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:37 | 4343469 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

There is only thing left that I really care about and that is my wife and children and that is why they already have their paperwork in order.  This is why they can speak the Cyrillic languages.  My paperwork is order but I am not leaving because I am from here.  I will hug them before they go but I am not sure I can apologize and mean it.  I am not short of guns and I am not short of ammunition.  You all know the day is coming.  Say when.   

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:59 | 4343472 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Any man who loves his family, he will get them out of a combat zone before the shooting starts, long before.

I always go back to the Nazi Model, many jews saw the writing on the walls in 1932, but  they didnt' bail, by 1938 it was impossible to bail, all exits were closed, nobody would take them, ...

Same coming now,... once the BULK of ameriKKKan's rush to the exits, ... the world will say NO WAY,... nobody wants a refugees, you got to settle abroad a long time before the shit hits the fan.


Some here will say "STAY AND FIGHT" yeh, right, but do you really want your wife raped? Do you really want your children cannibilized? Do you really want your family auctioned off as slaves? ( domestic or sexual, its all the same )

In all civil wars there is no food or potable water, life is HELL, make no mistake and they can last 5-10 years.

Throughout all history all intelliegent men with means got his/her family out of harms way, before the civil war began.

Is there a civil-war coming to the USA? Fuck yes, for no other reason that the USA is a nation of criminals and now they have choice but to rob and rape the USA the beast will turn inward, as the world no longer wants 'ameriKKKa', thus ameriKKKa will turn on itself, the full power of the most evil killing machine in all of world history. Why in the fucking hell are there millions of body bags at FEMA, and billions of rounds at DHS?. Because the NAZI-FUCKHEADS have big-time MURDER on the burner here at home.


Timeline is tough, but I say, you should have got your money out pre 2010, and while its still not too late to get your ass out, I really see that when HILLARY-2016 takes over all exits will be closed.

Once the airports are full of people and all flights are booked then the cost of EXIT will GO ASTRO, that is why you have to get your family out MONTHS before the NATION GOES FULL RETARD NAZI, aka MARTIAL-LAW.


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:23 | 4343508 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

Satoshi, I like you.  OK.  I have a complicated life OK.  I have a Russian wife and not of the mail order type.  I always have to explain this and I should not have to but I will make an exception.  "They" have money in Russia and it will be fine for the children.  I am an American though.  I have been invited to Russia to live but I don't see that happening.  I am not even sure how  could I sell all of the shit that I have accumulated over the years.  The reloading aspect alone is incredible not to mention the crates of ammo.  I have more ammo than I could possibly use in my entire life.

How am I supposed to get that ammo and the guns that go with it over to Russia AND my gold and silver?  It won't happen.  These items stay here.  I am not only one who has done this sort of hoarding.  You seem to wonder about why Zhers don't care?  We do indeed care, so I think we have to ask who you are and this is a fair question.  I am not worried that you are NSA or some shit like that because if your were NSA then you would know the unfortunate conclusion to your life.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 08:27 | 4343661 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

We have already crossed this bridge, when U leave the USA U leave all,

U talk a lot about loving your family, but U love your garbage MORE, ... enough said, U said it no me.

A man can get guns anywhere, ... Only a pussy needs guns, a real man can kill any man any time he wishes any place any time.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:47 | 4343471 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

You'd think that people would clue in that the real freedoms and options exist in being a DUAL citizen. Wall St and the Gov is full of them, and they're having a very good time.

Aside from keeping a low profile in the US (as others here have suggested), you can always use your second passport while abroad -- if only to have additional privacy.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:04 | 4343488 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Why can't we all have a Jewish grandma?

I want to see ZH post this, ... if I have read this bullshit about "Revoke my Citienship"

Why the fuck can't ZH give me a "How to get a 2nd Israeli passport"?

Come on guys bring it on, tell me how? Does my jewish granny have to exist? Or can she be like bitcoin?

I think every american should have a 2nd israeli passport, fuck it seems like every politician and banker in the USA has an Israeli 2nd passport.


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:56 | 4343605 negative rates
negative rates's picture

You can pick ur nose, and you can pick ur comrads, but you can't pick your grandma stupid.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:49 | 4343476 hesk
hesk's picture

lol I lived outside of Manila for 2 years. I could not wait to wait to jump on the plane. Locals where so ignorant shouting "white", "white" every time I left the gated community. What a hell hole.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 03:55 | 4343484 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

I agree that the whites should be kept in FEMA-CAMPS, .. gated communitys' for every white, and my would it be a wonderful world.

Check out CEBU they got really nice fema-camps there for white folk.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:25 | 4343509 Musashi Miyamoto
Musashi Miyamoto's picture

A couple of nights ago I was in one of these "sport martial arts" Dojo's, The Mauy-Thai instructor was doing his thing and I had trouble keeping myself calm. This cat kept talking about what to do in a street fight and though it was painfully clear he was embarrassing himself to me, many of the student were eating it up.

Classic Quotes like - ... "Remember its important to understand that the first element of street fighting is running away as fast as you can, what i teach you is useless on the streets, they have knives and guns, and they always have bunch of friends..."


"In your typical street fight your opponent will start with throwing a wide, open, easy to block, haymaker"


"Make sure to go easy on your sparring partner, we don't want anyone to be stiff for the next class"

After 2200 years of martial arts study by millions of people is this the pinnacle of your training? If your style is useless then why the fuck are people paying you money to teach them this shit? The fucker would last 3 weeks in my part of town, tops. Apparently he's one of those American "pros" with a decent record. Never been to the ghetto in his life, lives in a nice house with a nice car and a fucking picket fence...

White preppy American "toughness" is a joke and whatever FEMA-Camp prison life he will get he surely earned with his pathetic lifestyle.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 08:26 | 4343659 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

If you want to be a real samurai, go live in the MTN's the masters will come to you, when they see that you are not an asshole.

Having spent my entire life 'fighting' I can tell you that the hardest thing in life is to find a real teacher, but as a master we say the hardest thing in life is to find a good 'student'.

If anybody ever asks you for 'money' to train run like hell,

Sensei means father/teachers, Seigung means grandfather teacher, a father doesn't ask his son for money, all real martial arts are about passion, if your teacher is asking for money he is a WHORE.

Martial Arts is act of love between father/teacher, SI-FU means teacher-father, fathers don't fuck their children, and don't ask their children for money.

The great masters of hsing-i, bagwa, and tai-ji, all found the internals studying alone in the mountains, walk the circle walk the line, its all in the legs 5+ years, then you can kill any man with your bare hands.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:11 | 4343749 Musashi Miyamoto
Musashi Miyamoto's picture

I hear you, I rank in the Menkyo system as a Shomokuroku (8+ years) because in America the Kyu-Dan system has been thoroughly perverted. My master swore to Bushido and was one of those real martial artists. My training was as you describe; more as a mentor than a teacher. When I eventually open up my own school I intend to pay upkeep out of pocket so and be willing to teach to anyone with heart.

These days, as I travel from city to city on business I visit many dojo's and gyms. Learning about how they train, their attitude for martial arts, their level of skill and the understanding of real combat. Instead of living in the mountains, I sleep on the streets and in the ghettos. I think it is similar in intensity. I live a life similar to that of Musashi Miyamoto. I train in every breath I take in every motion of my body and every thought I think.

Truthfully I don't know much about Chinese Martial Arts but I have a good grasp of internal power and Qui-Gong. I have mastered a good portion of iron body techniques and several meditations for pain tolerance, body temperature, focus and metabolism. I have slept, sitting in half-lotus on hard pavement for more than a month straight.

Right now I am working on grappling, mindfulness through Samantha Meditation and iron fingers.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:15 | 4343826 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Bring it, bitch.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:25 | 4343838 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

Anglos have ruled Japan since Bakumatsu, when Commodore Matthew Perry arrived. 

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:06 | 4343490 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

   I'm expatriated in every sense of the word. You clowns that down vote are idiots! I'm trying to help you.

  It's well known that I spend 1/2 of my time in Asia and the rest on the West Coast of the United States.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 04:22 | 4343500 DavidPierre
DavidPierre's picture

What the hell is a 1/2 ex-pat.?

Is it like being half a Nazi?

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 06:01 | 4343568 Manipuflation
Manipuflation's picture

I gave you a greenie Yen if that makes you feel better.  We are getting jacked around here.  They forget that brothers are brothers even if they do not always agree.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 08:20 | 4343656 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

'Yen' if there was ever a shit that fone-star did dump it would CUM out looking and talking like U.

Enough Said, your a fucking TROLL. Why ZH keeps you around could only be that U maximize clicks.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 09:32 | 4343707 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Noob troll talking bout trolls.

Too funny.

"Listen to me! I'm a friggin astronaut, kung fu fighter and I live under a bridge in China."

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 09:38 | 4343713 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

HA! Now my Saturday has started well.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 09:36 | 4343711 wisehiney
wisehiney's picture

This article really brought over the crowd from the Flight Club site.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 10:15 | 4343728 Burticus
Burticus's picture

My first ancestor in America came here in 1658 in search of political and economic freedom.  I ask myself, "Am I a lesser man?"

The present day United State_ is an evolving totalitarian surveillance police state, resembling 1930s NAZI Germany.  Ask yourself - couldn't the German people see what was coming?  But, most sheeple stayed and millions ended up dead on the Russian front or the gas chambers!

Before bailing on my professional practice, I am milking the U.S. cow for as many FeRNs as I can while it's still mooing, converting the electrons/paper to physical silver bullion on the dips, some stored off shore.

Meanwhile, I am planning to haul @$$ to South America or disappear on a sailboat before $#!+ hits the fan.  Poor, low-tech, agrarian societies should fare much better than a high-tech society of mostly dumbed-down parasites dependent on imports, when their currency becomes worthless.

Asia & Africa will prosper once the west collapses.  Unfortunately, even if you live there for 30 years, you're still an obvious foreigner.  Alternatively, much of South America consists of predominantly European Caucasian people where you can easily assimilate and Spanish is easy to learn.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:04 | 4343818 PFO
PFO's picture

Hey Dawgs,,


The federal plantation has a 'form' for every occasion.


Read and act:


Sat, 01/18/2014 - 11:06 | 4343821 Heroic Couplet
Heroic Couplet's picture

But on your air approach to coming back to the United States, I want the FAA turned off. I want the FCC turned off. You can use any private FAA or FCC you can identify. You can drive on state roads only. I want your tires shot out if you approach an interstate ramp. I'm paying 28% taxes, and I want a say in banning your use of anything federal that I'm paying taxes for as a taxpayer.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 12:33 | 4343940 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

IMO too many people here give the government way too much credit for competence. Sure they have firepower, and they can tie you up with paper until you scream, but for they most part people who work for the government belong to the gang that couldn't shoot straight. I mean - how many even minimally intelligent government employees have you ever met? I think all this anger directed at the government actually gives them strength. Finding ways to mock and laugh at them is far more powerful.

The evil that they do is in the open for all to see because they want people to believe they are tough - bombing the shit out of wedding parties etc. Ooooooo - don't screw with these big bad boyz.

The idiotic fuck-ups they do every day are hidden because they know that this is the truth about their nature. Two words illustrate this point mighty nicely - Aldrich Ames.

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 16:20 | 4344408 syntaxterror
syntaxterror's picture

"If you like your alternative citizenship, you can keep it."

Sat, 01/18/2014 - 17:52 | 4344598 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

Here's a question all of those Americans that have either left or are in a state of transition might just want to contemplate.

After the best and brightest in this Country have taken their money out and left it to rot... Who is going to stop the mass firings of Generals and Admirals that control our most strategic weapons systems pointed at our "adversaries" that are being replaced by officer(s) that we know nothing about?

Won't have much to look forward to if Benjamin "Netanyaskrew" unilaterally fires Barrack Obama without any resistance from the U.S. Congress or the American people and declares himself emperor of the United States of America in order to start WWIII.

Best part of all while this may be funny and would never happen in light of what we've witnessed over the last 12 years it might as well be the truth because either way this is what the World has to look forward to wherever it chooses to live either Northern or Southern Hemisphere(s) with an American government that has no boundaries in the face of the law both domestically and international.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!