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Bank-Run Fears Continue; HSBC Restricts Large Cash Withdrawals

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Following research last week suggesting that HSBC has a major capital shortfall, the fact that several farmer's co-ops were unable to pay back depositors in China, and, of course, the liquidity crisis in China itself, news from The BBC that HSBC is imposing restrictions on large cash withdrawals raising a number of red flags. The BBC reports that some HSBC customers have been prevented from withdrawing large amounts of cash because they could not provide evidence of why they wanted it. HSBC admitted it has not informed customers of the change in policy, which was implemented in November for their own good: "We ask our customers about the purpose of large cash withdrawals when they are unusual... the reason being we have an obligation to protect our customers, and to minimise the opportunity for financial crime." As one customer responded: "you shouldn't have to explain to your bank why you want that money. It's not theirs, it's yours."

 

Via The BBC,

Some HSBC customers have been prevented from withdrawing large amounts of cash because they could not provide evidence of why they wanted it, the BBC has learnt.

 

Listeners have told Radio 4's Money Box they were stopped from withdrawing amounts ranging from £5,000 to £10,000.

 

HSBC admitted it has not informed customers of the change in policy, which was implemented in November.

 

The bank says it has now changed its guidance to staff.

 

...

 

"When we presented them with the withdrawal slip, they declined to give us the money because we could not provide them with a satisfactory explanation for what the money was for. They wanted a letter from the person involved."

 

Mr Cotton says the staff refused to tell him how much he could have: "So I wrote out a few slips. I said, 'Can I have £5,000?' They said no. I said, 'Can I have £4,000?' They said no. And then I wrote one out for £3,000 and they said, 'OK, we'll give you that.' "

 

He asked if he could return later that day to withdraw another £3,000, but he was told he could not do the same thing twice in one day.

 

...

 

Mr Cotton cannot understand HSBC's attitude: "I've been banking in that bank for 28 years. They all know me in there. You shouldn't have to explain to your bank why you want that money. It's not theirs, it's yours."

 

...

 

HSBC has said that following customer feedback, it was changing its policy: "We ask our customers about the purpose of large cash withdrawals when they are unusual and out of keeping with the normal running of their account. Since last November, in some instances we may have also asked these customers to show us evidence of what the cash is required for."

 

"The reason being we have an obligation to protect our customers, and to minimise the opportunity for financial crime. However, following feedback, we are immediately updating guidance to our customer facing staff to reiterate that it is not mandatory for customers to provide documentary evidence for large cash withdrawals, and on its own, failure to show evidence is not a reason to refuse a withdrawal. We are writing to apologise to any customer who has been given incorrect information and inconvenienced."

 

...

 

But Eric Leenders, head of retail at the British Bankers Association, said banks were sensible to ask questions of their customers: "I can understand it's frustrating for customers. But if you are making the occasional large cash withdrawal, the bank wants to make sure it's the right way to make the payment."

The arrogance is incredible...

 

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Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:21 | 4365146 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

i've been withdrawing since Cyprus...do your worst, fuckos.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:27 | 4365161 VD
VD's picture

"..and to minimize the opportunity for financial crime." TRANSLATION: TO MAXIMIZE HSBC'S ABILITIES TO COMMIT CRIMEZ, WHICH ABOVE POLICY IS AMONG MANY OTHERZ...

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:34 | 4365178 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

It's not like they are laundering money for drug cartels or something....

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:49 | 4365228 InjectTheVenom
InjectTheVenom's picture

GOT GOLD ?

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:12 | 4365299 philipat
philipat's picture

How long does it take for the sheeple to understand Bank Deposits make you an UNSECURED creditor of the Bank. So, actually, the momey is NOT yours, it's theirs!!! Join the queue and, oh, it might be a long wait....

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:21 | 4365324 fonestar
fonestar's picture

My funds are with Satoshi.  Nobody tells me how much I can spend per day.  Nobody tells me whether I can send the equivalent of $1 million to Iran.  Nobody to tell me what is for my own good.  Nobody to turn to if I screw it up.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:25 | 4365335 sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

Nobody to turn to when it's gone, either...

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:34 | 4365369 fonestar
fonestar's picture

That is right!  Join the professionals!

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:49 | 4365410 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

the game is goin' hot..........see how the weekend plays out.......those rabbitts are gettin' harder to pull out but they'll try until they come out well done

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:57 | 4365428 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

BOOM!

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:12 | 4365463 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

""When we presented them with the withdrawal slip, they declined to give us the money because we could not provide them with a satisfactory explanation for what the money was for. They wanted a letter from the person involved.""

 

To whom it may concern, my intent is to get MY money out of your filthy fucking mitts before you squander it.  Best regards.....

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:24 | 4365485 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

This is the biggest red flag I've yet seen, if true, that should raise serious concerns among even the most reserved of people, that there's massive instability and systemic problems on bank balance sheets.

HSBC is a massive western bank, and if it's seriously inquiring of its customers the reasons for their withdrawing ANY denomination of cash, then THAT'S A RED FLAG.

If any U.S. or U.S. located bank branch of a foreign bank inquired this of me, I'd immediately withdraw all my funds and close my account, and then pursue other legal remedies that may be available under the state and federal civil codes.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:34 | 4365515 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, is this the big one?  I certainly hope so.  Five years of blogging, stacking, prepping, being dismissed, Bitcoining, etc, etc, etc has left fonestar feeling a little drained and OCD.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:43 | 4365551 JohnnyBriefcase
JohnnyBriefcase's picture

I know that feel, bro.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:25 | 4365781 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

"we have an obligation to protect our customers, and to minimise the opportunity for financial crime."

Up until now, their PURPOSE was to COMMIT financial crime.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 03:06 | 4365919 Four chan
Four chan's picture

i only deposit just the tip, it makes pulling out much quicker even though you might leave a little behind.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 05:21 | 4366032 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Haha, Boris is understanding innuendo... you are very smart funny! "Little behind"! You are introduce ironic situation of small buttock, but you are manifest large well endowment! Maybe you are topple forward with awkward balance.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 05:52 | 4366071 old naughty
old naughty's picture

As one customer responded: "you shouldn't have to explain to your bank why you want that money. It's not theirs, it's yours."

What planet is thia guy on?

Boris is right...Banks are now topple forward with awkward balance (eh, maybe not...)

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:47 | 4366221 negative rates
negative rates's picture

No one defends themselves so loudly, as the guilty.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 08:45 | 4366276 Arius
Arius's picture

 

 

All you people talk is about ME, ME, ME ... what about us, what about the society???

9-11 changed everything never forget that - it is a new world!

Now, there are now banking laws and regulations in place to fight terrorism and terrorist funding which banks are obligated to comply with ... get a grip ... anyway, most of you here are broke, so, do not have this problem., which makes you internet warriors

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 08:59 | 4366297 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Mechanical Engineers is where it's at today rookie, we gave up on, Unforgiveable Sin, long ago.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:58 | 4366563 BurntPinky
BurntPinky's picture

How high is your nose stuck up THE MAN's ass?

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 16:27 | 4367128 So Close
So Close's picture

Banks are getting to be like a one way valve.   Money in all you want.  Cash out.... BIG PROBLEM.   Would love to see this tested with a 100k.

Tue, 01/28/2014 - 13:54 | 4375841 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Actually, there are requirements for DEPOSITING more than $10K. Withdrawal is unregulated.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 16:28 | 4367129 So Close
So Close's picture

Dupe

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 16:53 | 4367180 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

Nailed it......

911 changed everything now the terrorists are in the open so brazen it beggars belief; so evil they would serve to ghandify Hitler -

Bush was spot on with his "they hate us for our freedoms" meme - the really thick fuckers thought he was talking about some poor dirt monkey....... silly rabbits....

Today's tourist has become much more sophisticated than years gone by yes sir, the modern day terrorist uses such evil weapons  - NDAA, Double Tap Droning, Department of Gestapoland Security and perhaps the most diabolical instrument of evil ever spawned - MSM. No question these terrorist bastards really hate us for our freedoms and they mean to fix us ...... real good.....

And yes Virginia the banking laws that will cut off the terrorists funding - though not as you imagine perhaps - and they will burn on a pire of thier fiat lies ......... sound good cupcake??

 

Gold Biotchez

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 08:37 | 4366272 in-Credible Banker
in-Credible Banker's picture

Dude you are one funny mofo.  Priceless!

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 06:36 | 4366121 hunglow
hunglow's picture

Easy for you to say.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:27 | 4365788 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

...and to those that think, "they want it to collapse"
Bullshit. Nobody wants this, but these psychopaths have led us here. Math is a motherfucker. It's a mathmatical certainty this shit will collapse so either bury your head in the sand or stack, prep, bitcoin or whatever....ITS COMING.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:57 | 4365830 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Looking over historical charts I can't find any big crash right after a new high. I expect at least one attempt to rally from this downturn. If it fails to reach the top again the market's psychology will start to change. Another tell would be if the bottom of a correction doesn't form a 'V'. A flat bottom means BTFD is dead and when it subsequently turns downward the rats will jump fast. Free advice that's worth every penny.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:55 | 4366459 greatbeard
greatbeard's picture

Thanks dead.  It is those kinds of learned commentary that makes wading though all the hysteria on ZH worthwhile.  Peanuts in elephant shit I know, but damned good peanuts when you find one.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:03 | 4366470 Theosebes Goodfellow
Theosebes Goodfellow's picture

~"They said he could return later that day to withdraw another £3,000, but he was told he could not do the same thing twice in one day."~

Living proof that fractional reserve banking and duration mis-match are a bitch.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 14:01 | 4366873 Steaming_Wookie_Doo
Steaming_Wookie_Doo's picture

I wonder what the bank would've said if the customer said "Closing my account". Hard to argue, however they might suggest a wire xfer to the new bank. Branches should have 20-50K cash on hand in any given day (depending on the size of the branch). If you authenticate as the customer, you should be able to take out up to the daily limit for withdrawals, and that should be posted clearly in the branch so you don't have to play stupid guessing games. Either HSBC is short physical cash or they're just assholes. I know that banks in the US will even question you *depositing* >10,000 in a day, under the dreaded money laundering argument. If I were that guy who could only retrieve 3000 pounds, I'd keep going back every day, or hit other branches until I got what I wanted. But basically, I'd get out of a bank like that. Not sure if the Brits have credit unions or equivalents of "keeping your money local". HSBC is a cess pit, and with a glorious history of drug running to boot.

Tue, 01/28/2014 - 11:28 | 4375147 StandardDeviant
StandardDeviant's picture

They're not short of physical cash.

Tue, 01/28/2014 - 13:56 | 4375850 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Sure they are.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 09:54 | 4366372 yepyep
yepyep's picture

it will be worth it in the end dude.

 

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:57 | 4366695 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Late to this blog topic, but... I have NOT had problems with "large withdrawals" from HSBC. 

Tyler, please define "large withdrawals".  Maybe it's only a problem in the UK or the US?  Or maybe it's only a problem for the Walter White types (rich Meth cooks).  After all, given their monstrous size (outside the US), I seriously doubt that they would want to piss off their 'Global Premier' customers.

I gather that they don't really want Joe Sixpack as a US client anyway.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 23:15 | 4367747 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

According to the source e-mail within the Eurozone, 'large' withdrawls are anything greater than 3,000 (that would be Euros).

http://iacknowledge.net/hsbc-bank-on-verge-of-collapse-second-major-bank...

'Joe Sixpack' doesn't NEED to deal with this, because he typically stores his coins under the mattress (to be used in buying those big F-350 Fords with the diesels in them, or the new Bass Boats with the high-powered outboards so that he can beat the others to the best fishing spots). The 'sixpack' connotation does NOT refer to the number of beer bottles in the refrigerator; it refers to the musculature of the male abdomen (as in, 'six-pack abs').

Does this help? Read the linked information, as you go try to withdraw $50.00 to buy your dinner at McDonalds for you and your 'sigificant other'. NO, HSBC is more than willing to help you with what you define as 'large withdrawls'.

Sun, 01/26/2014 - 12:04 | 4368351 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Kirk vs Scott? HSBC must be worse than Tribbles! Mr Scott is correct, the Tylers don't need to expound on anything as the linked story had all the gory details. In the US, one can invest in a fireproof safe and draw approximately the same rate of interest on their savings. Instead of FDIC, savings are insured by Mossberg. In the UK? So sorry EUnuchs - you gave up that option.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 00:20 | 4365646 Jim in MN
Jim in MN's picture

Repeat after me:

 

"I..um....need it...to.....buy a Tesla.  Actually, several Teslas."

 

 

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:42 | 4365813 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

To pay property & income taxes, and ObamaCare premiums/deductibles - yeah, that's the ticket...

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 04:25 | 4365996 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"food. I know I'm a millionaire and that is my money...but do you think I could take out five bucks to buy a slice of pizza pie and a Pepsi?"

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 05:45 | 4366058 blabam
blabam's picture

Pepsi? wtf? 

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:47 | 4366225 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Yea, cause who needs money when you got pepsi?

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 13:00 | 4366721 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Which exactly why I planted a money tree in the back yard. It started to bloom and the damn thing is producing Rupees. 

 

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 23:33 | 4367778 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

Did you say 'Moneytree'?

http://www.moneytreeinc.com/loans/washington/online-payday-loans-ppc

(Teacher to student) 'Where does milk come from?'

(Student to teacher) 'The supermarket!'

(The MIC to Congress) 'We need more money to wage the war you have or haven't declared, We have all these pesky 'cost overruns', and stuff...'

(Congress to Treasury) 'You HAVE to come up with MOAR moneys!'

(Treasury to Central Bank FRS) 'Say, if we promised you a payoff, in say, 5 years, would you accept our notes of promise to pay?'

(FED RES to Treasury) 'SURE! We can do that, but there is the issue of INTEREST PAYMENTS...'

(FED RES to USGOV printing department) 'Do you have any issue with printing MOAR bills?'

(Printing Dept' to FED RES) 'No, of course not, but we might have to buy more presses!'

(FED RES to printing department) 'Don't worry, just print some MOAR and give it to the manufacturers of the presses. I KNOW they'll take this as payment...)

 

The difference between modern economists and Newton is that when the fruit falls NOW, it doesn't hit them on the head (it is blown away by the wind).

YAY MONEYTREE!

(sarc)

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 18:15 | 4367334 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Just one pepsi, but she wouldn't give it to me.

Sun, 01/26/2014 - 03:38 | 4367970 CultiVader
CultiVader's picture

+10 for Suicidal reference

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 05:05 | 4366025 savagegoose
savagegoose's picture

or

ok id like to close my account

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 23:18 | 4367755 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

@Jim in MN:

"No, wait, I don't like electric cars! I want to buy shares in Boeing's new 787 Screamliner! I'm investing in the Japanese battery manufacturer! I can't LOSE! I also see a futures gain in buying TEPCO, and SOLYNDRA..."

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 02:48 | 4365898 Max Cynical
Max Cynical's picture

"OK then, I'm closing my account immediately and require a cashiers check for the full balance."

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 06:09 | 4366093 silvertrain
silvertrain's picture

fill out this form sir we can have it ready in 14-21 days...

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:39 | 4366528 Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

Fill out this form, Frau Merkel, we'll have it to you in seven years

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 08:05 | 4366246 new game
new game's picture

then turn the fuck around and say "i have a check I need to cash" "oh and it is drawn against your bank" "will that be a problem" "do you have this amount of cash"  "i am in a hurry"...

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:48 | 4366686 sunnydays
sunnydays's picture

Well Wall Street has begun taking people's retirement accounts and putting it 100% in government bonds.  People finding out on their statements. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRKIwsmHX_k

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 23:04 | 4367733 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

@mjc0H1,

Here is an interesting article describing the 'conserns' raised by HSBC's current policy in Europe. It includes the fuller context of the letter that was quoted in this article, and some relevant statistical information regarding HSBC's current status.

http://iacknowledge.net/hsbc-bank-on-verge-of-collapse-second-major-bank...

'Fonestar' still doesn't think in terms of reality, as he is still promoting a digitized currency which is subject to the same issues as the digitized currency that HSBC (and ALL OTHER banks, for that matter) use. As soon as physical 'bitcoin' appears on the market, I might re-think my position. As it stands right NOW, HSBC does NOT HAVE the currency to reimburse it's depositors (it seems), hence the 'limitations on withdrawls' (READ the posted article and the entire e-mail quote from the source).

DID YOU KNOW that the letters 'HSBC' ORIGINALLY stood for 'the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Cartel', established in the latter part of the 19th century, in order to funnel the profits from the Chinese Opium War back to the City? As an account holder, I e-mailed my question right after establishing an account regarding this question, and recieved back a response in the affirmative (with no denial whatsoever as to my statement).

How, exactly, does one 'MINE' a 'BITCOIN', anyway? It's not like one could go out to a stream and pan for GOLD, or dig the Earth for other metals...WAIT for it...OH! I didn't understand! HSBC now operates Hopium transactions (via the American CIA) in AFGHANISTAN...but the Bernank and the Yellen are not co-operating in the printing of, and the loaning of, pseudo-currencies...because the USD (the crown's 'backup supply', so to speak) is no longer backed by TANGIBLES...

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:15 | 4366486 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

This is going to end badly for you fonestar.  But at least your young enough to start over from broke.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 00:48 | 4365699 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

What difference does it make, when you have somebody to turn to but they do not respond? Did it help when Corzine cypressed some farmers?

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 08:16 | 4366256 RSDallas
RSDallas's picture

Fone, if that is the case then you are as much, or more of a fool than the person with a  deposit account at HSBC.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:30 | 4366418 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

If I hold your mortgage, they can dictate to you how you pay off your mortgage.

If you have medical bills, they can dictate to you how you pay for those costs.

If you need food from a local grocery store, they dictate to you how to get those products.

 

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 13:38 | 4366824 garypaul
garypaul's picture

fonestar, I appreciate your good points, but your bitcoins ARE being watched, and the authorities can and will come after you if you tried to send something to Iran, etc.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 00:00 | 4365593 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

Exactly, also if they where so worried about large cash transactions and they didn't trust the person who was taking the money then why allow them to bargain down to 3,000 and then allow it?  Because if you think it's for nefarious reasons then at 3,000 it's nefarious reasons also.  Remember It's a wonderful life and where George's bank was having a run on it.  He had to bargain with people to not allow them to take out to much also.  Something is going on and when it comes to the surface it will  be all at once and take everything down with it.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 06:16 | 4366100 Doña K
Doña K's picture

I am buying a farm and the man wants the deposit in cash.

I am going to the casino

I am going to Venezuela and cash gives me 300% more bolivars

And no I don't want an envelop, it fits in my gun holster

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:49 | 4366228 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Look, it's my financial advisor thinking I ain't around to see him make a withdrawl again.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:15 | 4366173 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

It's a Wonderful Life is an oversimplification, particularly in this case.

Bank runs (action) and currency controls (re-action) are occurring at multiple levels simultaneously.

Nature is not something that can be bargained with, and only a banker or fascist central planner possesses the combination of arrogance and stupidity required to think otherwise.

However, just as the ChiCom prepper may be justifiably concerned leaving his nest egg in a Chinese bank, the ChiCom kleptocrats are becoming justifiably concerned leaving their plunder anywhere in China, hence the exodus of ChiCom kleptocrats and their ill-gotten fortunes. And the ChiCom fascists want none of it, the want MOAR -- MOAR ponzi, MOAR capital controls, MOAR surveillance state, MOAR prisons, MOAR taxes to fund the bread and circuses, MOAR, MOAR, MOAR.

The free movement of people and the free exchange of goods and services are not compatible with TPTB's end game.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:54 | 4366705 SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

And they seem just fine and dandy having the nefarious money left in deposit for their use at the bank. Hypocrites MUCH?!

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 09:07 | 4366315 Drifter
Drifter's picture

"How long does it take for the sheeple to understand Bank Deposits make you an UNSECURED creditor of the Bank"

Which is why they have a legal right to deny a withdrawal.  It's not your money, it's their money.

I don't know when that change was made to banking laws.  It certainly wasn't publicized.

But possession has always been 9/10 of the law.  If you don't have physical possession of it, you don't own it.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:20 | 4366495 css1971
css1971's picture

It was settled in 1811. Carr vs Carr made it completely explicit.

Yes they are that good at keeping this stuff under wraps.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 15:46 | 4366718 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

http://austrianeconomics.wikia.com/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking

They do a pretty good job of explaining the whole fractional reserving history including where Carr vs Carr fits into it including it's significance.

Another interesting aside in the article concerning fractional reserving and commodites in general hint gold and silver and the Comex since it is not monetary in nature anymore since gold and silver are no longer declared money...

However, an interesting development occurred in grain warehouse law, which has developed in precisely the opposite direction, despite the conditions of depositing fungible goods were exactly the same, and grain was a general deposit and not an earmarked bundle. In the history of the U. S. grain market, grain elevators several times fell prey to this temptation, spurred by a lack of clarity in bailment law. Grain elevators issued fake warehouse receipts in grain during the 1860s, lent them to speculators in the Chicago wheat market, and caused dislocations in wheat prices and bankruptcies in the wheat market. Only a tightening of bailment law, ensuring that any issue of fake warehouse receipts is treated as fraudulent and illegal, finally put an end to this clearly practice. Fractional-reserve grain warehousing, that is, the issuing of warehouse receipts for non-existent goods, was clearly seen as a fraud.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 13:05 | 4366733 SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

And most of the masses common perceptions of demand deposits are erroneous and at conflict with fractional reserve banking which is an ingenious, if insidious, banksta creation to extend and pretend their ill-gotten wealth and power. I mean, if you think about it, there's a place for legitimate banking services in a legit economy. We have neither in our current arrangement, and the temptation to keep the fractional 'money' (really currency) machine rolling, with it's attendant political power conferred is just too strong and too little opposed to stop.

So now fractional banking is going to implode in on itself.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 08:51 | 4366287 Walt D.
Walt D.'s picture

Pehaps they have not been getting their usual cut of the marijuana business since it became legal in some states.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:50 | 4366693 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

The irony of HSBC being concerned about financial crimes...

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 13:06 | 4366737 Keyser
Keyser's picture

More like they are afraid of being caught in financial crimes, again. 

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:36 | 4365186 Stackers
Stackers's picture

" it's not theirs it's yours "

Yeah, except that as soon as you deposit in your account it IS their money to spend as they want. Gotta luv factional reserve banking

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:02 | 4365265 Glasnost
Glasnost's picture

Exactly.  By your own CHOICE you give your money to a bank of your CHOOSING in exchange for credit with that bank.  "Your money" which you "withdraw" from the bank, is simply a reduction in your credit with the bank.  As soon as you deposit money with a bank it ceases to exist as your money.  It instead transforms into a liability with you as the creditor and the bank as the debtor.  The ignorance among people as to the function of banks continues to astound me.  THEY ARE A COMPANY.  COMPANIES CAN GO BANKRUPT.  PUTTING YOUR MONEY WITH A BANK IS EQUIVALENT TO INVESTING AND YOUR RETURN IS THE PALTRY INTEREST IF ANY.  Also it's irrelevant if it's a "physical gold" bank or something equally ridiculous.  If you put money with a company, it's an investment.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 06:40 | 4366125 FinalEvent
FinalEvent's picture

 By your own CHOICE you give your money to a bank

Here in the Netherlands you have no choice, your salary *must* be sent to a banking account.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:13 | 4366481 Bearwagon
Bearwagon's picture

And come first day of the new month, you can take it home completely, leaving just 2 or 3 € on your account for them to gamble with. I do this since 1993. Should work in netherlands, too.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:47 | 4366224 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

"Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in"

The kleptocrat also views the serfs' wallets as their own, as opposed to the serfs'.

But how should the depositor, banker, kleptocrat or ZHer view the takings of a thief?

And what process should be in place to determine whether one is a legitimate owner of an asset or liability, or merely a thief advancing a questionable claim of "ownership".

There (sadly and ironically) seems to be a relatively broad acceptance of "it's not theirs" when expressed in a different context around here (wallet sizes), particularly when the individual advancing the notion simply doesn't measure up to the object of their scorn, or for the fairer sex- TITTY ENVY and "they can't be real...".

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:26 | 4365162 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Shi'ite!  I am in Costa Rica now!

Good thing I have been taking money out of the banks for  along time.

Fewer stocks.  Less cash in the bank  More cash (physical CA$H) and lots of gold.

2 BTC

Fishez!

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:35 | 4365184 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

Me too.....this is the year. We are settled in Ohio. 

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:28 | 4365344 Ranger_Will
Ranger_Will's picture

Who the devil is going around downvoting everybody's posts on the site, including the excellent ones above? Damn little twerp...better get off the lawn.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:04 | 4365443 Lore
Lore's picture

I noticed that too. I think it's the online equivalent of a mutt urinating to leave its mark in an unfamiliar neighborhood.  Some basement dweller has enough intelligence to find the site, but not enough character or mental health or acumen to interact constructively.  Your post getting pissd on means he doesn't like something about it: you're too knowledgeable, you post something he finds discomfiting, or you're just better at expressing yourself.  Put this way, having a couple of negatives next to your post is a compliment.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 02:24 | 4365866 MeMadMax
MeMadMax's picture

Amen. 

 

+10000 If I could.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:03 | 4365448 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

krugman?

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:32 | 4365512 akak
akak's picture

Monkeyjunking: So easy, even a Krugman can do it!

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 19:32 | 4367448 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

Think Krugman is working his second job as a sideshow carney today (being the bearded lady).

Happy New Years to you and yours, Akak.

 

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 20:37 | 4367541 akak
akak's picture

Hey e_, good to 'see' you, and same to you!

PS: Do you ever hear from Lisa anymore?

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:30 | 4365508 Oliver Klozoff
Oliver Klozoff's picture

"Who the devil is going around downvoting everybody's posts on the site, including the excellent ones above?"

 

Contrarians.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 00:36 | 4365680 Ranger_Will
Ranger_Will's picture

Nah. I think the old Obozo is trolling ZH while looking up wookie porn in the other tabs...he doesn't get lucky too much with the FLOTUS these days...thankfully.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:29 | 4366415 stocktivity
stocktivity's picture

If you are here long enough, you don't give a shit about up or down arrows.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:19 | 4366491 Bearwagon
Bearwagon's picture

"Who the devil is going around downvoting everybody's posts on the site?" Could be just botchez ...

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:22 | 4365325 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

DCRB- I lost contact with my friend in Turkey about 6 months ago.  Not a business acquaintance, not really a friend.  (To be honest, he's just a guy I rebuilt an old carburetor for.)  But once you know somebody who lives THAT far away, it's kinda irresistable to touch base with them every so often just to see what's doing in his part of the world.

Starting 6 months ago.... no return emails.

Don't be that guy.  Telling people on an open internet forum that you have lots of cash and gold doesn't seem like a good idea to me.  Especially not if you're floating around in the continent of  "your company has just been nationalized." 

Keep it on the down-low.  Covering your ass is only effective if nobody knows you're covering your ass.  It's nobody's business but your own how your protect your interests.  We're smart enough to read between the lines.

 

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:27 | 4365339 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

He was referring to pre-boating accident near Playa Langosta.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 02:04 | 4365837 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

Who could have guessed that storm would come out of nowhere?

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 12:56 | 4366709 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

I almost had a boating accident at Ollie's point...

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:06 | 4365406 David449420
David449420's picture

Unless, (you're welcome, DCRB ) that was just to muddy the waters. He could be and most probably is a half a world away from there. Good Luck, Guy. I've found your Blog interesting.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 00:17 | 4365637 lewietheparrot
lewietheparrot's picture

No Debt

DCRB must be a troll

I don't know who he works for, but

No one is that stupid

And he always has something to sell

With complete respect to DCRB and

I hope I am wrong

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:11 | 4365748 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

He is no troll, but a Merry ol' soul. Godspeed to DCRB.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 02:06 | 4365843 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Short vacation, gone fishin'...

Back in America soon.  Where my gold & guns are.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:59 | 4365433 Ban KKiller
Ban KKiller's picture

Playa Hermosa near coco beach.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 11:53 | 4366553 samcontrol
samcontrol's picture

do chen

first post of yours i like

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:41 | 4365546 robertsgt40
robertsgt40's picture

OK POMEs here's what you do. Go to another bank that doesn't limit withdrawals. Write an HSBC ck opening new account in the amount that all but closes HSBC acct. Then close account at HSBC taking balance in cash. The bank runs are coming. Keep just enough in bank to cover basics. Keep balance in cash or better yet metal.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:22 | 4365770 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

Ding ding ding! No one has said the obvious.

Bank Teller "Sir, I can only let you have 3500 today."
IridiumRebel: "go get your fuckin manager. I'm closing my account right now."

{snarls as he spits on floor}

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 04:31 | 4366001 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"the other banks charge 20 percent." does banking stop because you no longer have your deposits at HSBC? "only in a bad way."

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:50 | 4366230 negative rates
negative rates's picture

I thought you were a banker, thanks fer the proof.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 00:31 | 4365673 Sir Humphrey
Sat, 01/25/2014 - 08:54 | 4366290 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Not just cash withdrawls @ HSBC UK either.

BACS transfers limited to 10k pounds per diem.

Took me ten days to transfer  a balance over to Barclays Channel Islands

whose limit is now 50K pounds per day, down from 200k.

Running out of places to keep accessable cash.

Gold bitchez.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 17:24 | 4367238 Rafferty
Rafferty's picture

So have a. A couple of €100 a day and I've quite a stash built up.  But such a solution has its own drwbacks.....

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:24 | 4365149 HedgeAccordingly
HedgeAccordingly's picture

just a reprice of assets remember – $GS COO Gary Cohn: this is not extraordinary movements in the market http://hedge.ly/1aThzoP

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:38 | 4365188 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

I saw this coming in 2006 and withdrew my TSP (Thrift Saving Plan) in 2009 and rolled it into physical. I paid the penalty and now I'm in control, so PTB, eat it.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:52 | 4366231 negative rates
negative rates's picture

You do have a timer of your own demise with that rollover though, big hands.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:23 | 4365152 Occams_Chainsaw
Occams_Chainsaw's picture

All your money are belong to us....so fuck off!

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:25 | 4365153 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

I can has justify my moneys?

It is on like Donkey Kong.

MOLON LABE, bitchez.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:26 | 4365158 Occams_Chainsaw
Occams_Chainsaw's picture

Awesome handle....

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 09:02 | 4366305 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Your handle is fucking outstanding! Cuts right to the chase! 

 

 

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:25 | 4365155 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Here, this is not jon stewart, so anyone who junks this can go fuck themselves,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff5PLY7Sn0U

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:28 | 4365168 Occams_Chainsaw
Occams_Chainsaw's picture

Heh...heh..you said 'junk'.....

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 05:04 | 4366024 401K of Dooom
401K of Dooom's picture

Don't worry, I voted you up.  the one thing you left out was that the sheeple want MOAR of the same.  They want MOAR freebies, MOAR less taxes and MOAR free sex.  Take a look at our founding fathers.  Educated, refined gentlemen who could carry on an intelligent conversation.  Now look at the people who are supposed to vote and decide our leaders.  We are the fools who allowed society to become like this.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:36 | 4366206 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

what happened to Beppe and his party of political change agents?  fell off the radar as soon as victory was assured by the kleptos and the change agents that were elected were locked in by "parliamentary procedures".

there are no top-down political solutions.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:25 | 4365156 WhyWait
WhyWait's picture

Criminals at work!

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:29 | 4365171 TideFighter
TideFighter's picture

Bullshit story. Has to do with the fact that local branches don't keep that much cash on-hand, it has nothing to do with how much you can withdraw. I enjoy ZH, but sometimes these stupid fucking stories get to me. 

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:37 | 4365189 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Fractional reserve came into existence based on the assumption the everyone wouldn't come along all at once and ask for their money but once upon a time they were at least careful enough to carry enough cash to make it look good.

Now, they just refuse to give it to you and make you jump through a bunch of stupid hoops.

What do you think a bank run is???

It's when too many people show up asking for their money back.

This is not a stupid fucking story.

 

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:26 | 4365330 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

TideFighter - I'm confused by your last sentence. What were you reading?

I read the article carefully and as far as I could tell it had nothing to do with sex, and was in fact about problems bank customers were having withdrawing their deposits at the bank.

Maybe you are on the wrong thread???

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 04:33 | 4366003 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

he forgot to add "at a reasonable rate of interest." no problem with usury in China.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:53 | 4366232 negative rates
negative rates's picture

I got the roap around ur neck as you slowly walk up the gallows.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:30 | 4365474 Lore
Lore's picture

My understanding from conversation with a local branch manager is that suburban bank branches do NOT generally keep much cash on hand: no more than a few grand in any given denomination.  The fact is, most people don't carry or want large amounts of cash anymore! They've been taught to rely on some form of plastic. If you are a client in good standing and want to avoid being turned away from making a sizeable withdrawal (more than a few hundred bucks) under otherwise normal circumstances, go to the main branch in your city.

That said, what I just stated underlines the fragility of the situation in the event of a real bank run, because it follows that hicksville is much more vulnerable to shortages of cash than a city center in a time of emergency: something for us all to bear in mind.  It might be worth your while to open a backup account at an alternate institution. When the doors close and lock at one, there's the chance that you might have better luck down the street.  Call it "diversification."

JMO, DYODD, etc.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:40 | 4365540 ceilidh_trail
ceilidh_trail's picture

Actually, some people do have the need for large slugs of cash quickly. A doc friend recently bought a Lambo in Kentucky and had to go to multiple branches to get the cash. He told me that's not unusual in that lots of collector cars are sold for cash on the spot. It's his side business/hobby  and how he financed part of his schooling. Too risky to keep big cash at the house, safer to troll the banks.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 13:23 | 4366786 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Damn straight. Doesn't matter if I'm selling a car for $200, $2000, or $20000 or more. I don't take plastic or checks. Cash on the barrelhead. Gold or silver also perfectly acceptable.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 08:09 | 4366248 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The Bank of Mattress is popular in Hicksville, as are many alternative currencies and other mediums of exchange.

Assuming the decline of the ability to adapt and overcome is endemic, the level of adaption required to overcome a bank holiday in Hicksville is MUCH LOWER than in the surrounds of Shitty Citi's nearest branch office.

But if you suffer some psychological disorder that leaves you with a perverse fetish for WHOREDING Uncle Ben's two-ply in impractical quantities, then either a road trip or A SIMPLE TELEPHONE CALL to the bank manager (ahead of time) can get the junkie his fix.

Mon, 01/27/2014 - 03:47 | 4370520 Lore
Lore's picture

True enough. I could say more, but the discussion is stale already...

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:43 | 4365207 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

"The reason being we have an obligation to protect our customers, and to minimise the opportunity for financial crime. However, following feedback, we are immediately updating guidance to our customer facing staff to reiterate that it is not mandatory for customers to provide documentary evidence for large cash withdrawals, and on its own, failure to show evidence is not a reason to refuse a withdrawal. We are writing to apologise to any customer who has been given incorrect information and inconvenienced."

where in there does it say anything about  having enough cash on hand?

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 07:55 | 4366233 negative rates
negative rates's picture

It's in the invisible print you don't see.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 21:58 | 4365248 Charles Nelson ...
Charles Nelson Reilly's picture

Really dude?!?... Go to your bank tomorrow and let me know how easy it is to withdraw $5k of cash. I do it for metals purchases when I want to buy dips and have fiat saved up. It's getting harder and harder Everytime I go in. While they haven't said "no" yet, they've had me jump thru hoops Everytime in order to withdraw. They don't like it one bit when I'm taking MY FUCKING MONEY out.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:02 | 4365262 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

well if you are replying to me I would tell you two things. One, I have withdrawn those amounts without a problem, and two, if they gave me a problem I certainly would not leave any money there to have that issue again. 

However I think this is a genuine article and in no way bullshit.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:11 | 4365294 Charles Nelson ...
Charles Nelson Reilly's picture

No, to the OP.

I have. From my address change not matching my license, my signature being evaluated by a branch manager (twice), to my bank directing me to another branch because they said they couldn't supply that much cash on a Saturday.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:14 | 4365306 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

brutal dude, I hope you got what was left outta there.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 10:08 | 4366385 effendi
effendi's picture

If your small local branch has say under 10 grand in the tills then your single withdrawl has taken over half their float. Leaves them vulnerable to not being able to cover the ebb and flow of deposits/withdrawls until the next armoured van delivery or until the time delay on their safe had passed.

So what were the hoops? Offered a bank cheque or a direct transfer to the seller? Asked if you could wait until tomorrow?

I'd only get really annoyed if they made unreasonable hoops. A bigger float in their tills is a security risk and I can understand that for really large amounts of cash (say 100 grand) it can take a few days to deliver. 

International banking laws now require banks to "know their customers" and enquire about large deposits/withdrawls. they cannot however refuse to give you your money if you a vague about what you want the money for (to spend as I like) and that teller had no right to refuse to cash a 5 grand withdrawl.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 13:24 | 4366792 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Then you should change banks. I walked into my bank this morning and made a $5k cash withdrawal, all in small bills. They didn't bat an eye. 

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:00 | 4365254 malek
malek's picture

Bullshit comment.

Point us to facts that support your make-it-up-as-you-go-along theory, such as "with 2 days advanced notice you may withdraw any amount (at HSBC)."

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 22:06 | 4365278 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Try making a deposit, last time  was  back in the State I sold an old HARLEY that I wasn't using on EBAY, the guy paid me $10k cash USD.

FUCK what do with with this paper?

SO I went to the friendly USA bank, asked them to deposit and then WIRE the money to a my CHINA account, this was like 2+ years ago, holy fuck, they had to call the cop's, the bank manager had to personally look at all the $100 bills to make sure they weren't counterfeit, it took over 90 minutes.

In summary, hell yes its hard to walk out with $5k, but try depositing $5k, then they put a flash light up your ass.

Remember, its not an option to carry $10k on my person out of the USA, had they caught me at the AIRPORT they could have very well taken my cash. Remember ALL USA cash has RFID tags.

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:03 | 4365446 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

microwave

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:43 | 4365544 The Grip
The Grip's picture

+ 1 solution despite urban myth on the RFID part

Fri, 01/24/2014 - 23:35 | 4365521 akak
akak's picture

 

Remember ALL USA cash has RFID tags.

Hey, I'm as paranoid as the next guy, but that is simply nonsense.

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 00:34 | 4365678 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Take  a $100 bill to the light and you will see a strip of plastic and if you cut the end's with a razor blade you can pull it out, and view in a microscope you will see that is a RFID.

A RFID is just a passive device, that oscillates and that oscillation tells what it is,...

Almost everything from clothes to tires now have RFIDS

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:01 | 4365727 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

This is an urban legend. You discredit yourself spreading bullshit with a spatuala. Roll up a new character, your current screen name is officially a fail.

http://www.snopes.com/business/money/strip.asp

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:35 | 4365799 Tim_
Tim_'s picture

High-Performance Non-Volatile Organic Ferroelectric Memory on Banknotes

"High-performance non-volatile polymer ferroelectric memory are fabricated on banknotes using poly(vinylidene fluoride trifluoroethylene). The devices show excellent performance with high remnant polarization, low operating voltages, low leakage, high mobility, and long retention times."


KAUST Researchers Develop Polymer Electronics To Trace Banknotes

"Researchers at the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST) Functional Nanomaterials and Devices Laboratory have developed the first all-polymer non-volatile memory device on a banknote."

"The idea of integrating memory on banknotes was conceived to demonstrate the feasibility of fabricating active electronic security features such as Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) tags on banknotes."

"In theory, an RFID tag would give governments and law enforcement agencies a means to trace money. The RFID allows money to carry its own history by recording information of its whereabouts, meaning humans are not required to spot counterfeit money."

"To make working memory devices on banknotes, all active layers of the device had to be flexible, transparent, inexpensive, capable of being deposited at low process temperatures, and robust. Additionally, these all-polymer ferroelectric memory devices can store data permanently."


Tuning into a radio solution to money forgers

"Scientists in Saudi Arabia have fitted radiofrequency identification (RFID) tags to banknotes to prevent counterfeiting."


Euro bank notes to embed RFID chips by 2005

"The European Central Bank is working with technology partners on a hush-hush project to embed radio frequency identification tags into the very fibers of euro bank notes by 2005, EE Times has learned."

"A spokesman for the European Central Bank (ECB) in Frankfurt, Germany confirmed the existence of a project, but was careful not to comment on its technologies. At least two European semiconductor makers contacted by EE Times, Philips Semiconductors and Infineon Technologies, acknowledged their awareness of the ECB project but said they are under strict nondisclosure agreements."

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 01:47 | 4365818 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

These are all fine references but nothing you cite confirms his claim. He is claiming RFID chips are currently in dollars. Nothing in this on dollars. 

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 02:26 | 4365868 Tim_
Tim_'s picture

U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing - Security Features

"Also, a machine-readable feature has been incorporated for the blind. It will facilitate development of convenient scanning devices that could identify the denomination of the note."


U.S. Bureau of Engraving and Printing - Focus Group Comments

"All liked: The RFID possibilities. (Theoretic ability to pass a device over a stack of bills and get an instant total)" (p. B-7).

"We asked - about putting RFIDs in money, and pointed out the potential for instant counting with a devicE:" (p. B-11).

"There was a brief side discussion about how smart cards work and how that RFID technology could be used for cash" (p. B-15).

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 02:45 | 4365895 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Again, these too are all fine references but nothing you cite confirms his claim. He is claiming RFID chips are currently in dollars NOW. Nothing in this on dollars NOW. All future talk. Possibility. Nothing about now. 

Sat, 01/25/2014 - 03:08 | 4365922 satoshi101
satoshi101's picture

Take  a $100 bill to the light and you will see a strip of plastic and if you cut the end's with a razor blade you can pull it out, and view in a microscope you will see that is a RFID.

A RFID is just a passive device, that oscillates and that oscillation tells what it is,...

Almost everything from clothes to tires now have RFIDS

 

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!