This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.

The Difference Between Gold And Bitcoin, As Explained By Elliott's Paul Singer

Tyler Durden's picture


Some perspective on the two "alternative currencies" - bullion and bitcoin -from the man who has run a hedge fund for 37 years and currently manages $23.3 billion, Elliott's Paul Singer.



After 37 years in the investment-management business, we are not easily shocked. However, two things about bitcoin have shocked us recently. One is that bitcoin and some of its fellow alternative currencies are finding such favor among investors while gold (the only real alternative currency) is languishing. The second is that the most heated investment-related conversation we have had in many years was with a young person who, when told of our mild dubiousness toward bitcoin, basically lost it and started yelling in its defense. Bitcoin comes with passion and belief – at least at the moment.


There is no more reason to believe that bitcoin, a computer-generated, algorithm-driven currency of supposed limited supply, will stand the test of time than that governments will protect the value of government-created fiat money. One difference: Bitcoin is newer and we always look at babies with hope.


If you are looking for an alternative currency, look into gold. It has stood the test of thousands of years as a medium of exchange and a store of value. Better yet, it is not just a computer entry out in the ether somewhere, and it was last seen available at a good price.


Bitcoin and its relatives speak to understandable impulses (against big government, in favor of freedom and modernity), but we do not see this particular experiment lasting. At least you have to work really hard to dig gold out of the ground.


- advertisements -

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Wed, 01/29/2014 - 16:53 | 4381487 sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

Well said.  Fonestar, was he talking aboot you?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 16:57 | 4381513 Troll Magnet
Troll Magnet's picture

Bitcoin = cashless society = central planners' wet dream

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:01 | 4381525 Levadiakos
Levadiakos's picture

Bitcoin is way cool. Gold is a pain to carry around.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:03 | 4381541 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

You know what else is cool? When your wealth doesn't vanish when the power goes out.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:12 | 4381592 zaphod
zaphod's picture

You'd have to take the power out worldwide, good luck, but I get your point. However gold is hard to transport across boarders, with bitcoin however is infinately easy to take any amount with you anywhere while hiding how much you have (multiple addresses).

BTW this article should have been titled: "The Difference Between Gold And Bitcoin, As Explained By someone who sells Gold for a living"

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:14 | 4381611 vie
vie's picture

Never sure why it's either/or with everyone.  I use cash, and I use credit cards.... ITS AMAZING.

So, thought experiment, perhaps we can use Gold AND Bitcoins!

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:58 | 4381836 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Gold is anonymous.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:11 | 4381896 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

"At least you have to work really hard to dig gold out of the ground."


The author of this piece doesn't understand the work required to bring a bitcoin "out of the ground".

Combine this with the fact that he was in charge of a hedge fund for 37 years means he's probably older than the internet itself.


Ignore bitcoin at your own peril.

I love Gold!

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:30 | 4381965 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I don't care how many billions AUM this Singer guy is worth.  If he would have so much questioned Bitcoin in my presence I would have ripped his head off.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:00 | 4381991 MillionDollarBogus_
MillionDollarBogus_'s picture

Ah, it was you, then...

fonestar, your down vote VS up vote ratio seems to be increasing.

does it increase when you post more often, or does it go up when btc price goes up..??

am curious... 

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:36 | 4381994 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Down boy!  You ain't rippin the head off nothin xcept maybe yer johnson.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 23:03 | 4382942 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Plus 1 (foreign machine here)

Personally I like fonestar, and respect his grit.  But your comment was precious beyond belief.  LOL.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 02:54 | 4383330 zhandax
zhandax's picture

"The author of this piece doesn't understand the work required to bring a bitcoin "out of the ground"."

But apparently he does understand that gold doesn't get easier to 'bring out of the ground' just because not as much is mined.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:37 | 4382003 balanced
balanced's picture

Comparing Bitcoin to Gold is the act of an ignorant and short-sighted person. They are not in competition...

Gold as a store of wealth

Bitcoin as a means of exchange

Why is this so hard to understand?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:49 | 4382057 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar greened you even though you are balanced.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 21:37 | 4382730 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

and i have greened you. a second time actually.

"behavior can be more than observed. it can be manipulated."

this is why "bitcoin" (and apparently the "Mt Gox" variant) in THEORY can hold such tremendous value.

Within the "datum" there is enormous information flow.
Within the "flow" patterns or "predictive elements" can arise (we are merely human after all) and as a consequence something of far great value than the truly limited amounts of gold (which is only available to the very few...and do they thing anything of it really?) can be "created" through analysis and analysis of variance.

in short not only does "modeled behavior" exist...but behavior itself can be "modeled."

this is why "securing the data" is so important.
we all "reveal things" about our "selves" that simply cannot be denied as factually true.

With that advent of the "i-phone" and the "facebook" this is done almost PURELY on a voluntary basis.

These data sets...done down to the MOLECULAR level can produce HIGHLY sophisticated and accurate algorythms that in theory can be surprisingly well timed in their prediction of actual behavior.

bitcoin is a perfect "test bed" to see this played who doesn't engage in some type of commercial transaction on a regular basis?

God forbid if you work for the Government.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 10:01 | 4383769 IPA
IPA's picture

Honest question, why is btc worth significantly more at mt gox exchange than say the bit stamp exchange? ?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 10:18 | 4383833 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

MtGox is all but cut off from sending USD to the states. They have been tagged as operating without a money transmitter 's license by the feds. Sending wires to Europe is little better. Japan is alright.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:14 | 4382176 Bindar Dundat
Bindar Dundat's picture

Fonestar: Sometime it's not worth arguing with idiots who have no money anyway.


Bitcoin is here to stay boys and girls -- get over yourselves.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:16 | 4382191 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It's still nice to laugh along with the bell and not for whom it tolls.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:18 | 4382192 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture

phonystar?  You would have ripped his head off?   Perhaps you are undersexed.  A simple little stroke will work magic.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 21:18 | 4382666 logicalman
logicalman's picture

You need computer power to 'mine' BitCoins.

A question - can you name the group(s) with the most computer power, on planet earth?

I doubt many rural Africans are fans of BitCoin.

Hardly a level playing field, just setting up an elite..... AGAIN!


Wed, 01/29/2014 - 21:34 | 4382716 Spanky
Spanky's picture


For... an interesting way of looking at it.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 22:11 | 4382826 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar can confirm everyone in Africa is a fan of Bitcoin.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 02:36 | 4383315 bitcoinbear
bitcoinbear's picture

What Africa doesn't need more of is crocodile tears from ignorent people. What Africa needs is a currency that is owned by the people and for the people and not a currency controlled by a corrupt-pro-Western-IMF-bad-loan-borrowing-dictator.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:15 | 4381910 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

cryptocurrecy will be anonymous in the near future.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 21:31 | 4382669 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

No chance. TOR isn't even anonymous. All traffic is logged at the ISP and router level. You can protect yourself from the sniffers, but not from the gatekeepers unless you choose to turn off your Internet. Your only hope is that they are too inept to query the right data. A legitimate hope, but even if you manage to encrypt your transactions before sending over the wire consider that they've had photonic microprocessing for at least 5 years, and the CPU on those processes 35 DVDs of data per heartbeat as of 5 years ago according to Intel documents. Considering Moore's Law, it's probably a lot higher than that today, and considering that we don't hear about technology until 20 or 30 years after the fact it's probably way more advanced than even this. They will brute force any 128-bit encryption faster than you can blink, but only if they decide to look your way. It is for this reason that Snowden is a plant. They would have him if they wanted him.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:24 | 4381952 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Gold is anonymous.


Only after it is melted.  fonestar's mother being a jeweller for years can tell you of many people arrested at the jewellers trying to sell stolen nuggets.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:50 | 4382058 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Mom was a jewelller, therefore I'm a jeweller.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:54 | 4382086 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

They were criminals. They should get caught.

BTW: It's not against the law to take gold accross borders. Same with cash. As long as you reported.

So far several Bitcoin criminals were busted already as well.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:06 | 4382136 fonestar
fonestar's picture

No Bitcoiners have been busted at any border crossing to the best of my 0xC0000000 - 0xFFFFFFFF but many gold smugglers have.  fonestar has had the thought of getting cocky with "what's on your USB stick son?" game but fonestar is just luck that they will even permit him into the country.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:25 | 4382244 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Everything you've ever done online is belong to the gov now.  Whether encrypted or not, every single buy/sell transaction you've ever made has been recorded for future reference.  Bitcoin is ok with the establishment as long as you pay taxes on any profits.   Our problem is not financial.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:29 | 4382266 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar is virtually shaking in his boots.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:38 | 4382299 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

The battle for our liberty is much bigger than our personal gain.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:45 | 4382338 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar achieved liberty when he accepted Satoshi into his life, his mind and his heart.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:57 | 4382398 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Fonestar, you're sounding like some religious freak.  If you believe in something, defend it with your logic, I'm OK with that,  don't give me this newagey mind and heart crap when you have neither mind to understand nor heart to make it happen.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:23 | 4382514 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Have you learned nothing from the .torrent?  Those in the know are lauging at your expense.  

Blessed are those of Reddit and blessed are those of The Pirate Bay!

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 21:32 | 4382683 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

What you don't seem to grasp is that people don't want gold to smuggle over the border. Nobody who wants to be off the grid would go near a border. They want it so they can transact without being tracked. Anyone with half a brain would know to melt it down. Tell me, how are you going to hide your blockchain history from the watchers? Everyone who has ever transacted with BTC will forever be part of the log. There is no escape from it.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 21:54 | 4382775 Croesus
Croesus's picture

"It rubs the Bitcoin on its skin, or else it gets the hose again"...

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:13 | 4381904 aphlaque_duck
aphlaque_duck's picture

Correct. Each enhances the value of the other. One for stability, one for portability. Between the two of them we have no need for banks any more, and capital controls are impossible.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:27 | 4381962 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin is the most disruptive technology in the past several centuries.  If you realize that before the other ducks, you are a smart duck.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:08 | 4382149 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Bitcoin is not disruptive to the old establishment, in fact it's embraced and almost promoted.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:19 | 4382213 fonestar
fonestar's picture

If you really believe that you're a complete idiot.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:49 | 4382364 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

I thank you for labeling me.  I never felt any guilt about judging.  Do you want me to challenge your judgement?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:52 | 4382379 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Do not worry of fonestar's judgement.  Worry of Satoshi's judgement.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:54 | 4382396 Spanky
Spanky's picture

Oh pleease... Can I watch?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:08 | 4382454 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

I wish.  Don't expect a logical response, I'll have to chase him around the barn and wear him out like a rat.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:21 | 4382505 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar does not get worn out.  fonestar wears worn out.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:25 | 4382515 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

Fonestar places hope in nonsense rather than truth and righteousness.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:27 | 4382522 fonestar
fonestar's picture

In that case I am long nonsense in truth terms.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:53 | 4382604 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

I'm also long nonsense in truth terms.  You already know that I've been trading and milking the swings on bitcoins for a long while now .   I've been stacking the profits into PM's at Fed induced low prices like a bandit.  That said, I wouldn't recommend people buy bitcoins now, you needed to get in early, too many competing cryptocurrencies and too many govs are liking the idea oif CC because they know how easily they can control internet traffic and content into their country.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 02:15 | 4383300 bitcoinbear
bitcoinbear's picture

I wouldn't recommend people buy Gold now, you needed to get in early, too many competing metals and too many govs are liking the idea of metal backed currency because they know how easily they can control it and content into their country as they have done 10000 times before.


Gold bug gun

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 02:27 | 4383309 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture many competing cryptocurrencies are there now?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 04:19 | 4383371 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Over 100 with Litecoin having 5% of Bitcoin's value and all the others collectively also having 5%.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:15 | 4382484 engfizz
engfizz's picture

I wish I could upvote you more.  This whole debate between bitcoin and gold seems like just another expression of the black and white fallacy.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:20 | 4381621 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Next up we will be learning why bananas don't taste like tomatoes. What is everyone fascination with comparing two things that have nothing to do with each other ?

Gold is money. Bitcoin is a decentralized currency that requires no counter party confirmation and has many possibilities in peer to peer asset transfer that have not even been imagined yet. It has huge potential when you start to understand that it's use as a currency only scratches the surface of what is possible

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:33 | 4381713 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

I took all my computers apart and didn't find any bitcoins.

I went panning for gold and guess what?

I didn't find any bitcoins there either.

The article says its hard to dig gold out of the ground but I've looked all over and NEVER found a bitcoin.

I even asked my gold bitchez to stop digging and start looking for bitcoins.

If they are that rare, they must be really precious.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:39 | 4381742 Stackers
Stackers's picture

That's odd cause mine is sitting here pooping out 0.06BTC per week.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:43 | 4381763 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

Oh, so they are as precious as poop?

Hmmmm....$48 dollars a week.

Yep, I sell my horses shit for more than that, so almost as precious as poop.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:53 | 4381825 ncdirtdigger
ncdirtdigger's picture

I wonder what his input cost is to get his bitcons mined. Just as your horses must eat for you to harvest manure, so must his computers use power (and from what I understand, a lot of it) and hardware to poop out bitcons.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:44 | 4382039 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

"At least you have to work really hard to dig gold out of the ground."

Proof that they have no clue about BTC mining (I do; I'm a miner) and therefore have no idea what they're talking about.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 21:29 | 4382678 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

The game is to convince you to forfeit what you already own for another promise.  All Govs control their servers and the infrastructures associated with internet access to their particular country.  Truth is, Bitcoins are as traceable as any credit card purchase.  Our bigger problem is political, not financial.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 21:43 | 4382744 Spanky
Spanky's picture


For... accuracy.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 00:32 | 4383157 digi
digi's picture

"Truth is, Bitcoins are as traceable as any credit card purchase."

No, just... no. Can I instantly create a near infinite amount of credit card accounts without providing any information whatsoever? Can I deadrop a 5$ microchip that will securely broadcast a transaction to the network at a later date with a credit card. Wait a second, is there even such a thing as a secure credit card transaction at all? That would be... no, no and no.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 04:11 | 4383365 Acet
Acet's picture

There are ways to make anonymous card transactions using pre-paid cards.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:15 | 4381909 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Gold bitchez!  

Used in a sentence...

"My friends asked how to avoid losing purchasing power of their life savings. I responded "Get some PMs. Gold Bitchez".



How to sound like a retard at Zerohedge...

"My mom and her sister, they're gold bitchez"


You are 2x retarded for thinking bitcoins are inside your computer and for not knowing proper zerohedge english.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:33 | 4381980 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

You are 10x retarded for not recognizing when somebody is having fun. 

I got sick of the 'gold bitchez' innanities slung around here and started pretending that they were scantily dressed babes who dig gold for me oh, about a year ago, did you miss that thread Zek?

Did the gulag ruin your sense of humour?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:46 | 4382026 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Fight club isn't about holding hands pansy.

If youre sick of gold and its innanities,   I suggest you get some bitcoin.  It has electrolytes.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:36 | 4382290 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

If you think this is fight club then you should try pulling a baby cow out of its' mom with a chain and come-along in minus 30.

I'm not sick of gold, I'm sick of morons who think 'Gold Bitchez!' is somehow funny/ironic/cool thing to say.

Try "Wowie Zowie" instead.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:48 | 4382345 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Bitcoin Bitchez!

Electrolytes and alliteration.


Also the terms are calf and heifer. Aka you mom and wife.

Wowie Zowie that was a zinger!
Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:29 | 4382513 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

Actually, a heifer is an un-bred/unproven female bovine.

The calf is a heifer.

That's the reason I dumbed it down for you.

Now that you've called me a pansy and insulted my mother and wife, I will solve your dilemma.

Take it up the ass for an extra half slice of bread instead of vice versa.

A zinc enema would do you good, helps with brain function.


Thanks Silver dog in advance, it's an interesting life.


Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:11 | 4382464 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture




I have watched such... @ 45 degrees.

Holy COW !

I was horrified to see the chain birth... @ age 12.

Both lived.

Helped pull out baby sheep 20 yrs later.

Much easier, less weight.

I 2nd the rally for end of demonstrative Au self righteousness.


Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:46 | 4382296 Againstthelie
Againstthelie's picture

"What is everyone fascination with comparing two things that have nothing to do with each other ?"

Well, that's not wholly correct. Do you really believe the NSA/DARPA product Bitcoin ( ) does not use intentionally misleading labels?

E.g. for calculating the solution of an equation = mining.

The name itself: Bitcoin. Although it's no coin. The name itself is already a lie.

The intention is obvious: to suggest it was similar to physical gold.

And look how the anti-fiat sheeple jumped on it! In their minds they have a lot in common. Well Bitcoin in their mind was even better than gold.

JPM didn't need to believe MBS were a great product. They only needed to know that others believed they were great. So you or me we don't have to believe that Bitcoins were very different from gold - what counts is, that so many out there who do not trust central banks, believe it was even better than gold.

That these ppl usually have no clue about the technical aspects of the internet or the Bitcoin protocol is a huge contributing factor for their believe. It doesn't matter if a computer engineer knows that Bitcoin is a TOTAL SURVEILLANCE currency. What counts is that the sheeple do not know it.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 00:37 | 4383174 digi
digi's picture

Building something inherently anonymous that is trustworthy probably hasn't ever been done as it seems like a pretty formidable challenge if it even is possible. Adding a layer of anonymity on top of a transparent protocol, well that solves everyones problems now doesn't it?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:42 | 4381762 whatthecurtains
whatthecurtains's picture

Zaphod bitcoin would do well to have you as a spokesperson instead of the delirious fonestar

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:51 | 4381975 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar is a raving zealot who lives and dies in Satoshi's honour and has never made claims to the contrary.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:20 | 4382210 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture

You do more to undermine bitcoin than you can imagine.  Well played.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:22 | 4382225 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar is here to proclaim Bitcoin's coming victory and not to gain followers.  

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:56 | 4382404 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Amen Halelujah!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 01:44 | 4382808 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

Fuck off.  You posted awhile back that your "goal" was to make money on BTC so you could use the profits to  buy rental properties (tangible assests) and rent them out. 

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 07:05 | 4387145 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

for what it's worth the volume vs price is stabilizing. We're nearing the 2nd period of a time-series for a volume spike up with a massive selldown in price but the last period - nothing happened.
The buildup of volume to the next period isn't happening either that I can see.
My skeptical side says "no more bag-holders stepping up".
The other side, because an investor must always look both ways, says if stabilizing happens then people could, and should, sell goods & services for btc directly rather than merely converting to fiat and dump fiat, expand the realm of what btc can do.
It doesn't eliminate the on-grid weaknesses of bitcoin but it's a babystep improvement.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:08 | 4386166 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

candyman candyman CANDYMAN!

it's... bitKONAmon!!

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 22:17 | 4382837 logicalman
logicalman's picture

I'm starting to think that fonestar is a double bluff - he's so far over the top as to put you off any idea he rambles on about.


Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:52 | 4381816 ncdirtdigger
ncdirtdigger's picture

Did the US/Israel have to shut down the world's electrical supply in order to infect the Iranian computers with a virus? Do you believe that .gov doesn't have the ability to attach a virus to bitcons should they so choose? Do you think Charlie Shrem thought his transactions were secure and private?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 00:42 | 4383185 digi
digi's picture

Those are some cute questions you got there champ. Here's one for you, "Do you think"?

You can't attach a virus to a bitcoin, it's just a number. That makes about as much sense as attaching a virus to an abstract thought. And Charlie Shrem wasn't caught due to his btc transactions he was caught by not encrypting his email which this whole snodwen storm should have already made everyone well aware of the governments ability to read your unencrypted emails. If it's not false evidence it grade A just being sloppy.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:21 | 4381905 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Ever consider that "power" is a metaphor for:

  • pulling the plug on specific nodes of the net (which is not owned by the Btc'ers despite their delusion that it is).  Nodes that self-identify by advertising "We accept Btc or todayscoin" would make for easy targets.  Without many and widespread nodes at the commercial vendor end you can cancel the streamers and parades and instead relegate its crypto use "underground".
  • criminalizing its use outside of govt-approved mechanisms.  Yeah, yeah, I know..."They tried to ban pot, and see how well that worked?"  That's not a strawman by me; it's been asserted on ZH many times.  Instead it's a strawman by the asserter.  No one can ban anything.  Instead they penalize and thus discourage something whether it be murder or speeding or use of Btc. 
  • Third parties like bitpay flat out state in their terms of use that they can disclose everything about you and your transactions to other parties incl banks and govts.  I don't envision any businesses popping up on sovereign soil if they don't accede to that condition.  Businesses off of sovereign soil?  Uh huh, and they don't have much impetus to give a shit whether you're mad because you sent them Btc and they reneged on their promise to send you a widget.  A 3rd party holds the funds until theyreceive the widget?  Oh boy that's a sure fire way to jump start commerce. 
  • taxing its use.  See each of the above.
  • actual power shutoff (to identifed nodes, and don't claim that you're invisible.  your fingerprints are all over this.  Make it worth someone's while to identify you and they will.  Are you your own ISP btw?  They 'never' share info with govts (sarc sarc sarc)
  • the overblown but oft-mentioned EMP.  On the slim chance that one of sufficient magnistude occurs then I have bigger things to worry about.

It works - for now and on the current scale- but please don't think that it is the 100% anonymous Fed/BoE/etc killer that you will be able to use forever and unopposed.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:19 | 4386197 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

no, you'd only have to take the power out for the majority of miners & fiat exchanges, that would finish it nicely & would leave 90% of world power uninterrupted.

Gold is very easy to transport across borders: bitcoin is very easy to stop using any number of devices, some of which are simply bombs. Could be something to explode, cut, microwave a device, whatever. You have to really find the gold to stop it, you don't have to find  the bitcoins to stop them.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:21 | 4381641 fonestar
fonestar's picture

You know what else is cool? When your wealth doesn't vanish when the power goes out.


The power never goes out on fonestar.  fonestar and the RSBT is self-sustaining.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:38 | 4382007 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture


Oh look, ZH threw the haters a gold-guilded bone. Is ZH trying to get goldbugs and bitcoiners to fight with each other, because that's all it looks like from here.

In market news, seems we are still winding in on the large triangle on the Daily chart, Gox had a correction that alleviated some of the escalating premium pressure, (I still think they're going to implode one day - its run by idiots), and Bitstamp is just purring along capturing a good deal of the remaining volume from Gox.

The NYC Reg meeting was the predictable teeth-gnashing from the authorities about how it makes their job harder, and won't you please, please PLEASE let us regulate it, LOL.

Trends point to flat plateau points in price before the next rally up, and I think the cycle will be shortened from 4 - 6 months down to 2 - 3, which puts it around late February or so before we start to grind higher again.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:56 | 4382085 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar couldn't care less if they're trying to stir up the shit pot here Exponere.  As many of the gold bugs here have said in their own words they are more friendly towards government paper rectangles than Bitcoin.  So basically, in my books they are nothing but traitors to anarchist and libertarian values that should be disposed of (in an environmentally friendly way of course...).

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 22:22 | 4382847 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Do you refer to yourself in the third person because there are two other voices in your head?

Just asking.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:21 | 4386208 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Remus says fonestar is simply copying Remus.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:24 | 4386220 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

fonestar is powered by ImpossibruCells.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:53 | 4381822 aminorex
aminorex's picture

numbers don't cease to exist when the power goes out

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:15 | 4381907 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"numbers don't cease to exist when the power goes out"

Yes, but these numbers will remain only in your memories.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:24 | 4381942 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I think it's you that will become a memory... along the lines of snail mail, horse & buggy, steam engines, etc.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:42 | 4382029 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"I think it's you that will become a memory..."

Fonestar, this is a big surprise for me, that you know how to think about something, except the "Holy-Satoshi" and cheat-bit-coin.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 00:46 | 4383191 digi
digi's picture

Yea, they will remain in my computers memory. So when the power comes back on. There are all my numbers right there where I left them.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:25 | 4386230 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

no, when the EMP hits that memory gets fried, burned, erased forever.

When the network is gone, wires cut, cell towers gone, there will be no path for transaction of bitcoin in the real physical world.

Maybe you can trade them back & forth between usernames on your own home-run minecraft server if it survives the EMP while the outside world infrastructure is gone.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:26 | 4386232 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

if it's EMP that knocks out the power, yes they do.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:07 | 4381879 Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

FUD...or just ignorance.  You would lose the ability to spend money until the power came on since the transactions could not be signed, but you would not lose your wealth (although I'm not sure I would call it wealth per se).

Most people with amounts of BTC that they are concerned about keep the keys "offline", meaning a printed copy which they can then regenerate their keys with.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:42 | 4382017 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

If there was enough chaos by an event that caused a major shutdown, when the lights come back on what is your bitcoin worth?

You may still have 10 coins but what affect on the swinging price would such an event have?

To suggest you'd still have your 'wealth' isnt correct, you'd still have your bitcoins but would people be rushing back to buy them up and head to overstock or would other priorities take focus leaving a vacuum in bitcoin value?

$100,000 bitcoins might be the future but if that's in Zimbabwe style dollars its as good as 10c.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:09 | 4382159 Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

To say that a fiat currency floats according to systemic risk is (hopefully) obvious to readers here.  Government issued fiats have their weaknesses, bitcoin has its own.


FWIW, if there were an event that large and that long, we'd have far more to worry about than the worth of any type of money...

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:47 | 4382044 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Keys from nothing lead nowhere.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:13 | 4382175 Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

Master Sum Dum Goy, is that you?!

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:13 | 4381899 Swarmee
Swarmee's picture

We hear this in every discussion about bitcoin, please explain to the class how this does not also apply to USD balances in banks and the electronic USD credit/debit system used daily by pretty much every citizen? The issue extrapolates to other fiat currencies but USD is as good a proxy for discussion as the others.
Furthermore, when this "power goes out" scenario occurs explain why the most pressing issue is not the sudden starvation and death caused by the failure of modern infrastructure including heating for a vast segment of e population in no temperate areas?
Finally explain how silver and gold, which are not widely distributed within the US population, will suddenly and instantly become the superior means of transaction given the massive loss of paper wealth from bank accounts disappearing leaving most without any savings, and having the available PMs concentrated in the hands of the few and primarily already wealthy? Gasoline, clean water, and food will be worth more than gold at that point in most areas.

The point is this "power goes out everywhere at once forever" argument as a reason to avoid bitcoin is not only highly improbable, it could be applied to nearly anything that relies on modern energy infrastructure. It is the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument. Did the power go out worldwide in the first five years of BTC's existence? No, it did not. But a lot of early adopters in that time frame profited quite a bit in the meantime. If we are to place odds on the potential downfall of BTC, betting on permanent global power failure is one of the longest shots on the table. At least form a cogent argument that doesn't require the end of the world as we know it, because frankly that's just lazy and like I said, will be superseded by raw survival concerns.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:54 | 4382074 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Bread will be more expensive than gold? Well, I'll give more gold in exchange for bread and I will stay live. But you will die of starvation, trying to gnaw USB flash stick, with the crypto keys of your Bitcoin.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:44 | 4382335 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Any reason I can't diversify?  Bitcoin to use in the here and now and gold/silver to use in some fantasy MadMax future...

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:52 | 4382388 Duke of Earl
Duke of Earl's picture

That's just ridiculous.  You must only use gold.  Especially for your prove your loyalty.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 08:04 | 4383499 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"Any reason I can't diversify?  Bitcoin to use in the here and now and gold/silver to use in some fantasy MadMax future..."

So, you admit that the situation in the collapse of the economy Bitcoin will be only useless sets of letters and numbers.

Well, go on. Let's say you have to make a journey into the future on 20 or 40 years ahead. What one of the following, you will take away, with you in this journey:
- Dollars
- Euro
- Exchange-traded stocks
- Bonds
- Bitcoin
- Or real Gold?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:15 | 4386185 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Aye, in a power down situation Bitcoin is not usefull.  This should be abundantly clear to anybody with half a brain.  I love me some gold and for the long term I stack it.  Everything has different purposes. I get the impression you endorse statist fiat for the purpose of daily spending.

Thu, 02/20/2014 - 23:54 | 4460714 spqrusa
spqrusa's picture

I am guessing here that people don't realize you can print your Bitcoin?

You can even password protect it in case you don't like it when people rob your self printed cash...

Oh - and did I mention my cell phone can store the whole blockchain so I can buy and sell with bitcoin without "centralized" power. My cell phone can charge on solar power and so can the billions of other phones around. Gee - Bitcoiners don't need centralized control systems to operate - I guess in the land of central planning indoctrinated people - the distributed systems don't make any sense...

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:06 | 4381552 CH1
CH1's picture

Dear God, will the BTC haters never get over it?

If you don't like Bitcoin, don't buy any!  More than that is neurotic obsession.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:10 | 4381578 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

I don't hate it; I feel sort of sorry for the people, these modern people, who have no education and know nothing about human history. I'll be glad not to have to try to correct these mistakes as a public service; if they will just shut up and enjoy there bit coins in silence. Is that fair enough?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:30 | 4381682 vie
vie's picture

I think the idea is to spread the adoption of Bitcions.  It's early on in the experiment, but if no one ends up using it, it's a self-fullfilling phophesy that it'll fail.  The problem is people are thinking of it as a store of value or an investment vehicle when it's primarily meant to be a means to transfer value without an intermediary.

So, perhaps you can stop knee-jerk hating on it, and instead highlight the risks as well as the potential for people.  It may very well go down in flames, but if we never try, we'll never be free of Credit Card companies and other userious institutions.

I don't advocate treating Bitcoin's like gold, other than as a usury-free method of exchange to anywhere on the planet... something Gold unfortunately can not do for us without significant overhead.  (Of all institutions that have the means and the motivation, countries don't even repatriat their gold until it's too late.)

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:49 | 4381807 margaris
margaris's picture

Wealthy people who sit on a lot of gold and silver will always bash everything that competes with their market and takes their customers away.


But hey, that's free market. If precious metal dealers can't give the people what they need, then they should step aside and make place for innovation.


OR: they can adjust their strategy and sell gold/silver for bitcoins. But no, they are stupid and hateful.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:28 | 4381960 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"I think the idea is to spread the adoption of Bitcions."

And I think that water is wet.

Who wins the prize for most obvious thing posted today?

You can say the same thing about every medium of exchange.  Some folks assassinate world leaders and go to war to maintain the extent of adoption theirs (for example the petrojewbux). 

Let me know when fonestar gets some cruise missiles and my physical address.  I'll buy a few Btc to appease him too.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 00:51 | 4383208 digi
digi's picture

BTC doesn't need cruise missles on account of the fact that it goes up in value while all competitors go down.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:58 | 4382101 silvermail
silvermail's picture

All these so-called crypto-currency will multiply like rabbits up to moment when their numbers will be equal to the number of fools on the planet.
And only when every fool on the planet will have its own personal crypto-currency, the bubble of crypto-currency will burst and all these so-called crypto-currency, will become equal zero.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:50 | 4382378 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Novels can and are created ad naseum.  After all, the printing press went open-source a long time ago.  However, there can only be 10 books on the Best Seller list at any one time.  Just because you or anyone publishes a novel doesn't mean anybody else will read it.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:51 | 4382495 vie
vie's picture

Indeed.  What matters is not how many crypto currencies there are, but how many are used by vendors.  If none offer anything of significant value over Bitcoin, there's not much Cost/Benefit to accepting yet-another-currency.

Consider, Gold and Silver aren't the only precious metals either.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 22:10 | 4382823 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Dear God, I hope that you are not as thick as you appear.

Value?  The vendor isn't playing the game alone, there's also the consumer to consider.  If whatthefuckcoin offers the same utility as Btc, but can be purchased today for $0.01, then I trust that you can see the value and how Btc can be sent to the dustbin.  "Oh, but Btc costs more!" ... in the terms you're discussing why would that be?  Relative scarcity?  Nope, not vs whatthefuckcoin.  Temporary acceptance?  Bingo!  It's literally a confidence game.  Users and - more to the point - potential users can walk away tomorrow and pickup whatthefuckcoin.  How much does the vendor have invested?  Nada.

Your 2nd point:  Gold and silver aren't the only PM. 

No kidding.  As the Btc pumpers like to decry the goldbugs' lack of technical knowledge - allow me to enlighten you that Au and Ag each have very unique properties that give them very specific utilitarian value in industries far and wide.  Gold, for example, is found in that laptop or PC or table or phone you've been typing into. 

Tell me the same thing about Btc vs whatthefuckcoin.  You've already told us that they are the same with the exception of (temporary) adoption.  Newtwork effect falls to pieces when the network walks away.  Btc owns NOTHING.  As I've noted repeatedly: no patent, trademark, copyright, contracts, physical assets, etc.  You know, the things that give tangible worth everywhere else in the world.  The only thing that Btc has that even approaches proprietary and that gives it value is the network...OF OTHER PEOPLE'S ASSETS....who can all walk away tomorrow. 

I'm NOT a goldbug or PM bug btw.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 22:29 | 4382859 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Bitcoin does have the network effect: Mining strength, merchant adoption rate, userbase, market cap.  I am willing to bet you these will be more than sufficient. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 01:04 | 4383234 digi
digi's picture

patent, trademark, copyright, proprietary = the things that give tangible worth everywhere else in the world.

Oh man I had a good laugh from that one, thanks man. As for the altcoins most of them have zero liquidity and patchworked infrastructures to the point where the work involved for a merchant to begin acceptting them is by itself a detterrent to do so. You make it seem as if you just put up a sign that says we accept fuckcoin and magic fairies come down and provide you with a payments system. Not so my friend. The day is soon approaching where you can accept bitcoins and use them in turn to continue your business, no alt coin is even close to being able to be reliably exchanged for just fiat without bitcoin as a crutch helping it along the way.

"The only thing that Btc has that even approaches proprietary and that gives it value is the network...OF OTHER PEOPLE'S ASSETS....who can all walk away tomorrow. "

Yes, now it seems like you are almost getting it. Just like every fiat reserve currency bubbles to the top due to network effect. Would you rather be paid in mexican pesos and be able to transact with 5% of the world or be paid in USD and be able to transact with 95% for their goods and services. The same can be said of bitcoin vs the alts. Of course it is early in the game and it's not writting in stone that BTC has to be the one, but anyone suggesting that network effect has no value is going to be in for a surprise. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 04:25 | 4383373 Acet
Acet's picture

Of course the other way to look at this "spreading of the word" is that insiders, who got their bitcoins early when mining them was easy, have a very strong interest in increasing its adoption since that would increase the value of their holdings.

In other words, the greedy first movers in a ponzi scheme are trying to find more suckers so that they can cash out for more FRNs.

Given the huge change in mining rates in bitcoin over the space of about a decade, I would say that bitcoin is designed specifically with the purpose of provide a HUGE first mover advantage. In fact I would say bitcoin was purposefull designed as a Ponzi scheme which is attractive to people who know and like tecnology but are not specialists in cryptography and technical architecture.


Thu, 01/30/2014 - 06:34 | 4383430 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

You mention insiders but fail to mention the discussions months beforehand leading up to the start of bitcoin were public and that the mining network has always been public and open for anybody to join.  Not anybody else's fault if you were, perhaps, sniffing glue while all of this was going on.  You also discuss mining rate "over the space of about a decade", however earlier this month bitcoin celebrated its 5th birthday.  

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:44 | 4381772 margaris
margaris's picture

What happened to free speech?

So only the silver and gold pundits are allowed to preach and pump?

Lol, it's examplary to see how much the silver pundits have stopped making videos and blogposts... remember two years ago, it was the hightime of silver pumping.... Then all went to hell.

What happened? Has the government corporatocracy put an end to your silver dreams??

Watch out, bitcoin is not "fixed" by some beardy people in a shady bullion exchange...

Bitcoin is promising

bitcoin is a revolution...

...and the more I hear biased investors of the past who made the most part of their fortune because of government deals blaming bitcoin as something fishy... the more I understand that bitcoin will change the whole world, no matter how much you struggle against it.


So you might just roll over and accept it.


Listen, bitcoin has no problem with gold and silver. Bitcoin doesn't bash precious metals, but understands them as a well established insurance against government stupidity.

So you really have to explain why gold and silver investors feel so much "threatened" by bitcoin. Really, it's starting to get ridiculous... what happend to healthy competition and free market?

What, you show your true statist face now, hm??? Pathetic.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:16 | 4382186 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

bitcoin is not revolution.


i like gold silver bit coin and stocks but each has its place.  stocks are now a rigged market so I am out on those


the power down scenario is unlikely but if it happens you better have beans bullets and Band-Aids. . will eventually have value in that situation but not for years.


Wed, 01/29/2014 - 20:33 | 4382543 vie
vie's picture

Bitcoin is indeed a revolution.  It may go down in flames like most revolutions do, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have the power to change the world in significant paradigm-shifting ways.

It's a revolution against the banking/finance/usurious TBTF powers that be.  A revolution against government controls and money printing.

Bitcoin is no less a revolution than the internet was.  30 years on, the world is a very different place.

The problem with Gold, as real as it is, is that most people would rather carry around slips of paper that represent gold promises, than the actual gold itself.  There's also significant risk in securing/hiding it if you amase any reasonsable amount.

Crypto-currencies solve those problems.  If I need to flee the country with my wealth, all I need is my BTC key.  I can memorize it in my head, or encode it on a peice of paper that looks like gibberish.  No need for any boating accidents and GPS coordinates.

(Just to qualify, I'm not going bull-retard on BTC.  But it's a shame if people can't see it's potential to free society from their current bondage.  PMs unfortunately have proven too easy for the TPTB to routinely route with fiat since merchants would prefer paper slips to mounds of gold.) 

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:09 | 4381579 fonestar
fonestar's picture

A lot of them are just shills CH1.  We know that online targets are assessed online by their page rank and assets are dedicated to attacking those accordingly.

(Thanks Ed Snowden!)

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:44 | 4381774 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

when will we finally stiffen the penalties for bitcoin deniers? first it was the holocaust, then the wtc...this is getting serious

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:46 | 4382037 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

When will Bitcoin have a Sea-Org? That's when you know they are serious.


Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:05 | 4382137 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Satoshi will be canonized.
And the denial of Bitcoin will equated with terrorism! LOL

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:01 | 4382113 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Between crypto currencies and human stupidity have something in common. This lack of limits.
The limit of separation on the parts (limit of depreciation) for Bitcoin and any other crypto currencies - it is infinity.

The limit for quantity emergence of various new crypto currencies - is also infinite.

And the limits of human stupidity - is also infinity!
Long live the new infinite money for people with infinite stupidity!

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:53 | 4382397 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

If you are going to copy/paste the same text on every bitcoin thread, at least have the common decency to spice it up a little for your fellow readers.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 02:47 | 4383326 silvermail
silvermail's picture

@ TheHound73

I accept your criticism as justified. But I ask you to consider, that I repeat only my questions and statements, on the which no one gives me answers and objections in essence.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 17:37 | 4381601 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

bitcoin is a mechanism of exchange, like any other currency it will go up and down.  The only advantage it may have over any other currency is the ability to transfer wealth from anywhere to anywhere.  So, I will use it to do so and purchase more physical assets as I move my wealth away from potential confiscation and into physical assets I can defend or that generate revenue on their own.   The TBTF already have strong positions in bitcoin, litecoin etc., but they don't control them yet.   By all means use the utility of cryptocurrencies as long as we can.  Hell, I see people exchange in all kinds of things more and more these days, my god, we may start seeing more real market opportunites?  Perish the thought...

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 18:21 | 4381930 margaris
margaris's picture

Bitcoin is so much more.

Bitcoin solved a problem that was considered unsolvable by mathematicians and programmers for a very long time...

Bitcoin is a concensus driven ledger... making the need to trust people obsolete. The system doesn't need any control by a central authority, instead it only needs mathematics.


Bitcoin is at the moment mostly used as currency. But a concencus driven ledger can be used for so much more:

Voting, identity, naming, contracts, notary ...


sound like a lot of jobs that are now in the hand of government bureaucrats. Imagine making them all obsolete.

Just wait and hold on tight,... some real change is coming...


Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:12 | 4382166 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

100% correct. Who needs taxes and representatives when you can vote for and fund initiatives directly? Who needs all sorts of intermediary businesses like insurance, auto rental, etc., etc. when people can contract for services between themselves securely and failures to deliver are an easily discoverable matter of public record?

There's a lot more to this than avoiding fees and export controls.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:12 | 4382168 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

accidental re-post

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:14 | 4382177 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Voting? About what voting you're talking in the society, that can not even understand, the inflationary nature of Bitcoin?

Bitcoin - it's the same FRN, only in reverse. The possibilities are endless printing of dollars has been replaced in the Bitcoin system to the possibility of infinite division of one Bitcoin apart.

The allegation that a constant amount of Bitcoin does not allow to lose purchasing power by dividing Bitcoin it is absurd and nonsense.

- Inflation inherently increases the amount of currency in circulation and makes the currency more cheaper against goods.
- The monetary reform that removes the extra zeros of paper currency (reduces the number of fractional parts of the money) makes currency more expensive against goods.

So, Bitcoin - it's the same infinity of FRN, only in reverse.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:39 | 4382284 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

It's not the same thing at all. Splitting one BTC into smaller parts is no different than splitting one USD in smaller parts by allowing transactions using small fractions of one cent. In neither case is the value of the single unit modified by doing that. 1000/1000 has the same value as 1/1. The problem with FRN is that a privileged class can create new whole units out of nothing at will by issuing debt. And that's not how BTC works.

Do you think that stock splits are inflationary too?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:41 | 4382320 silvermail
silvermail's picture

That is, you are absolutely sure that the privileged class has no relation to the creation of Bitcoin. You just believe in this like in God, is not it?

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:58 | 4382410 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

I believe that the source code is open for review and the ledger is under control of the people who use it and are therefore invested in it. If you want to believe in conspiracy theories there are far better ones out there to believe in.

Perhaps if you understood how it works, you'd have less reason to suspect a trick. But it's your choice as to whether or not you want to learn how it works. The information is out there.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 03:40 | 4383351 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Open source, Open source, Open source, Oh my God, it is Open source!!

Unix systems with open source, breaking every day many times around the world.

Open source is not a guarantee of safety.

If I give you check the mathematical work of Mr. Perelman (open source), you do not be able to understand, and you can not check anything.

All past " crypto " super -duper encryption algorithms were originally leaky. All of them had the back doors. But the believers learned about this later.
Encryption Standard bitkoin also has a back door. And you also will learn about it later. But right now, you can continue piously believe in miracles and fairy tales from the NSA about "Satoshi". LOL

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 13:05 | 4384348 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

Nothing is a "guarantee" of anything. You seem to be fixed on unachievable absoutes - dividing things by infinity, absolute security. If those are your standards, then prepare to be disappointed - a lot - in life.

The question isn't whether or not something is perfect. The question is whether or not it's better or worse that what's presently in use.

Do Unix systems break down sometimes? Yep. So do Windows and Mac OS. But which one can you fix yourself? Unix. Because the source code is available and you can change and recompile any library you like. And if you can't do that personally, so what? Learn how - if it's important to you. Or find other people you trust who can.

Those are your choices in life - about anything. Learn to do it yourself or learn to trust someone who can do the things you can't do for yourself.

"Encryption Standard bitkoin also has a back door."

Really? Where? Prove it. 

Gold bars have a "back door" - counterfeiting with tungsten cores.

You made a claim and I made a claim. The difference is, there's actually evidence supporting my claim:

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 13:48 | 4384467 Spanky
Spanky's picture


For... piling the shit deeper and deeper.

[Edit] If you believe, it means that you do not know. There is a substantive difference between the two. As in some people believe in Heaven, but the only ones who know, one way or the other, are dead.

The day you find out if your belief in bitcoin is well-founded could be quite interesting. All faith in Satoshi; ignore that NSA behind the curtain.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 14:14 | 4384581 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

Where is it that you think belief is necessary? The encryption algo's are published, the code is open source. The NSA created some of that encryption technology but again, since the algo's are public anyone can inspect them to look for flaws, and there's a huge motivation for people to do that because these are the same encryption algo's that secure your online bank accounts and trading platform logins, among other things.

Have you stopped using those?

I don't have more funds in Bitcoin than I'm willing to lose if it does turn out there's an as yet unseen flaw. Can you say the same of your bank account or your trading account? The exact same crypto protects each of those things.

And beyond that, Bitcoin is just one instantiation of an idea - the consensus driven register, which has a big future beyond just being a payment mechanism. If Bitcoin (and everything else that relies on SHA-2) crashes and burns because someone did put in a secret back-door (that no in the world has yet been able to detect), so what? 

You pick up the pieces and create a new system - but this time one that is capable of handling a variety of cryptography standards, thereby spreading the risk.

Wed, 01/29/2014 - 19:47 | 4382359 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Additional issue of shares reduces their market value.
Crushing currency without restrictions, it is the same as the infinite money creation. That is, via the infinite fragmentation currency, you will increase the money supply in circulation infinite.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!