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Minimum Wage Mendacity

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Gary Galles via The Circle Bastiat Mises Economic blog,

With President Obama’s State of the Union Address and its associated campaign prominently featuring increased minimum wage, tired arguments for raising the minimum wage are being once again retreaded. Unfortunately, they compound failures of logic, measurement and evidence.

It would stimulate the economy. If I pay $1 more than necessary to hire a worker, I get $1 less in services for my money. The increase in the workers’ consumption enabled by that $1 is a transfer from me to them, not a net gain.

It would increase others’ wages as well. Unfortunately, higher minimum wages reduce available jobs, and fewer alternatives don’t create higher wages. Unions and other competitors would see wage hikes, because alternatives become more costly, but other workers get fewer goods and services in exchange for their labor —i.e., decreased real wages.

It would make work more attractive, reducing government dependence. That would require additional jobs became available at a higher wage. However, fewer jobs will be available, so fewer people would be able to work their way out of dependence.

The minimum wage hasn’t “kept up” with inflation since the 1960s. This presumes without justification that the 1960’s minimum wage was economically justified. However, it was a Great Society aberration that coincided with a virtual stop in progress against poverty.

It also ignores that much of employers’ compensation goes to Social Security, Medicare, workmen’s compensation, new Obamacare mandates, etc., rather than as wages. As government- mandated employment costs ballon, the minimum wage substantially understates compensation.

The claim uses the CPI, widely known to overstate inflation, to calculate “real” wages. And the bias was even larger in the past. So going back to the 1960s for comparison mainly introduces a half century of compounded overstatements of inflation to dramatically understate real wage growth.

It would decrease the number of families in poverty. Unfortunately, as labor economist Mark Wilson put it, “evidence from a large number of academic studies suggests that minimum wage increases don’t reduce poverty levels.” One reason is that most minimum wage workers are secondary workers in non-poor households, while very few are heads of households.

Even important businesses endorse raising the minimum wage. Unionized businesses and those who already pay more than the federal minimum gain from raising it, by increasing rivals’ costs. That those employers who would gain at others’ expense endorse a higher minimum wage says nothing about the validity of arguments against it.

A higher minimum wage will pay for itself in higher productivity, lower turnover, employee morale, etc. Every employer who believed that to be true in their circumstances would pay more without needing any mandate. Are those businesses always accused of being too greedy not greedy enough? Further, why do those states with the highest state minimum wages have higher unemployment rates and lower economic growth rates?

Even if some lose their jobs, most low-wage workers will gain from a higher minimum wage. This assumes that other terms of work will remain unchanged, which is false. For those who keep their jobs, fringe benefits, on-the-job training, etc., will fall to offset additional mandated wages. And the increased wages may well be less valuable (as well as taxable) than what is given up, especially on-the-job training that helps people learn their way out of poverty. That is why labor force participation rates fall and quit rates rise when the minimum wage rises, in contrast to what would happen if those workers were made better off.

Supporters of a higher minimum wage claim altruism to help working families as their motive. But it actually harms most of those supposedly be helped, while benefitting supporters by raising costs facing competitors. They may claim, as did the Chairman of Ben & Jerry’s Board, “I support a living wage economically, morally and with deep conviction,” but it is really a self-interested infringement on freedom that is economically stupid and morally abusive.


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Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:26 | 4385230 Levadiakos
Levadiakos's picture

I'll take my wages in BTC

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:28 | 4385249 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

If Amerika is let King Soetoro rule much longer, maybe is no wage for minimum.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:40 | 4385303 Gazooks
Gazooks's picture

not king, Boris


errand boy

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:48 | 4385336 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture


Unfortunately, they compound failures of logic, measurement and evidence.

Ok Gary, where’s your actual fucking evidence then? Other than your idiot ideas pulled out of your ass what do you offer here in terms of evidence based reasoning?? 

We exist in this place called “planet Earth” which has many countries, some of these countries have minimum wages and a lot don’t. Compare them - on any gawddamn metric you like - and see which countries (minimum wage vs. no minimum wage) come out ahead. 

‘Cause guess what, the world doesn’t conform to your stupid theories. This is how the world actually works:

There has always been and will always be a concerted effort, regardless of how profitable an enterprise, to reduce labour costs. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:48 | 4385365 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

If you want your McJob, you can keep your McJob...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:13 | 4385468 Mercuryquicksilver
Mercuryquicksilver's picture

If you like your employees, you can keep your employees.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 08:18 | 4387227 PT
PT's picture

If China stops exporting to the rest of the world and wishes to consume what they produce, would Chinese wages have to go up?  Or would they have to go down?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:15 | 4385710 666
666's picture

Instead of debating whether raising the minimum wage will help or hinder, how about implementing a minimum IQ requirement? The sheeple keep getting dumber and dumber, just like their fearless leader in D.C.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:35 | 4386574 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

YEAH, um...

'Here, Ms./Mrs/Mr. applicant for cashier position, I have one more test for you.'

     'Like, um, O.K.!'

'All right. I have ordered a food purchase of $6.23. Here is your cash register (slides cash drawer over desk at applicant, with supplied money). I hand you a Twenty-Dollar Bill.' (He/she/it hands the applicant a $20 Bill). 'Just as this happens, the power goes out on your register.'

     'Oh, that sounds really shitty and crappy and bad!'

(AHEM) 'Well, um, yes. Anyway, you have ten seconds to count the change back to me. Are you ready? GO!'

     (Applicant reaches for i-phone, frantically flicking a flailing thumb, trying to find the 'tools' thing, and fails to find the 'calculator' function, as interviewer looks at watch. Ten seconds pass, and applicant is now shaking i-phone, hoping that it will respond telepathically, or at least roll the magic 8-ball of the 'unknown answer to the secret question' of HOW MANY of each monetary thingie is to be given back. TEN SECONDS PASS like an eternity...)

'Thank you. We'll be in contact.' (Interviewer waits for applicant to leave, then takes application, turning in swiveling chair, and the sound of a paper-shredder is heard)


New scenario:

Applicant waits in line at local welfare office, practicing signing name in cursive with right hand waving in the air ('air guitar' of writing skill-honing), frantically checking i-phone for new internet updates on the status of Just-in Bliebler. Taking a Hostess Twinkie, applicant adjusts fat pants, and breaks Twinkie in half, feeding the other half to her infant child in the stroller. Applicant is now 28 years old, never married, has had 3 abortions, and cannot name the vice-president of the nation in which she resides. Applicant becomes frustrated by the long wait, because she 'knows' her current boyfriend is probably loading the bong, right this minute, and she is 'missing out',)...

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 01:17 | 4386894 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

This is the current "minimum wage" class that will be displaced by marginally more intelligent and aggressive unemployed if min wage gets increased.

All the employed protesters will be replaced by the next level up in the employment foodchain.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:01 | 4385409 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Agree with you.

The abject greed at the CEO, CFO, COO, and HR department corner office suite of parasitic MBA's is a plague.

Arguments like this against the minimum wage have relevance only in a world where the rule-of-law is enforced, there are no central banks, no QE or bailouts, and there is sound money (backed by Gold and Silver).

In our Ponziconomy we may as well make the minimum wage $15 since the Kleptoligarchy is getting it's maximum wage already.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:11 | 4385458 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Funny fact about Gary (author of this 'article'), the man works at Pepperdine.. Can just imagine him and his trust fund students sitting on the grass starring out at the pacific ocean discussing in gravely serious tones of how a minimum wage increase will destroy America. Life is tough bitchez!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:34 | 4386619 PT
PT's picture

They know that the only way they can avoid the minimum wage is by pumping out endless anti-minimum wage propaganda ...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:45 | 4386647 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

As Gary and his 'co-conspirators' look out over the Pacific Ocean, there at U.C.Pepperdine, they calculate the wind speeds, knowing that the radiation; while invisible, is seriously depleting the environment that they are residing in. Siging to themselves, they wonder once again if the California government will be able to keep funding their paychecks (as they are 'I FORGET NOW AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME' billions in DEBT), and are faced with the task of telling their wives and children that the economy really IS going to implode, so they had better contemplate doing without 'essentials' like the Mercedes, or the new dog, or even the McMansions.

SERIOUSLY NOW: Do you have any idea how much one must 'earn' to even STAY ALIVE in the environment of SoCal?



Why don't YOU submit an article to the Zero hedge community, using YOUR vast base of knowledge, and describe what is REALLY happening; and ALSO, tell us where YOU work; or, even better WHO you work FOR? I could venture a few educated guesses.


Fri, 01/31/2014 - 01:07 | 4386875 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture


Why don't YOU submit an article to the Zero hedge community, using YOUR vast base of knowledge, and describe what is REALLY happening; and ALSO, tell us where YOU work; or, even better WHO you work FOR? I could venture a few educated guesses.

I did submit a link to an article (above), not one I had written obviously but who would be interested in that? Leave writing to people who can do it. Comments section is for the peons to sound off, if you can't handle it go retreat to whatever enclave happens to share your opinions.  Gary put his shit out there, he can expect some critics. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 19:38 | 4385886 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Fsck that!  Let's put this BS to rest by raising the minimum to $100/Hr and see just how many worker drones benefit!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:10 | 4385984 PT
PT's picture

And why not?  The number one problem I see is foreign competition.  The number two problem is that the govt won't release any higher denominated notes.

Let's get something straight here.  The minimum price of real estate went up by 400% and no-one complained.  Oh, but that was due to fwee markits so it is all okay!  How does that "stimulate growth"?  Stock prices are not justified by earnings or dividends.  Real estate prices are not justified in terms of rent or mortgages.  Either stock and real estate has to come down or minimum wage has to go up.  Which do you think is more likely in the "real" world ( "real" as it gets more unreal every day )? 

Levels of debt need to be either defaulted on or inflated away.  What is going to happen?  In a hyper-inflationary environment, what is the trigger that increases the worker's wages that allows prices to inflate?  Benevolent bosses?  (I've seen the "reward" for employee of the month.  Don't tell me that better workers get paid more.)  The fact that bosses really will need to increase wages as workers won't come to work if their wage is battling to pay the price of one banana?  Or will workers start borrowing against the future value of their house just so they can buy groceries?

The point being that there should be a few amongst TPTB now that understand that if they don't want stock and real estate prices to go down then a few wages are going to need to go up in order to justify current prices (though that will mean they still "lose" in real terms).  Of course, as long as banksters still lend to idiots, all the extra money in the system will still get pumped into unrealistic real estate / stock prices and none of the little people will be any happier, but at this stage you can stop worrying about minimum wages being a problem.  Minimum wages rises are needed to play "catch-up", to cause over-all inflation and dilute debt but, like I said at the beginning, the effects will be fucked-over by the relatively cheaper wages found in foreign countries, and newly-issued debt will keep everyone worse off.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:48 | 4386668 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

I was told that they always work in groups of three. In fact, over the years of study, I have found that this is invariably the case.

Does anyone else have any input regarding this urban legend?

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 01:27 | 4386913 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

The problem is that companies like Foxconn are looking to possibly offshore to this country now.  Minimum wage must go up to defeat that trend.  We will not be allowing jobs to come back to this country.  The side benefit of it hurting existing American workers who will see hour and job cuts nice but not essential.  This ship is going down no matter what.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 13:34 | 4388471 OldBoy
OldBoy's picture

Agreed, we need it in order to keep the greedy from exploiting the little guys.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:00 | 4385655 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Sowell's obvious ignorance shines through - Switzerland (my family lives in Switzerland) has some of the strongest labour wage protections around, to Americans the Swiss system would no doubt be seen as flat out communism. 

Here is an explanation of what some European countires use which would certainly not fly in the US:

In this instance we are talking about a form of universal minimum wage, not what slate uses as 'partial' minimum wage to muddy the waters. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 19:17 | 4385847 Suisse
Suisse's picture

Switzerland is a toy country full of stolen Jew gold due to Nazi collaboration. 

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 04:14 | 4387047 tokengator
tokengator's picture

And europe is a raging success.


I'd rather not have government get involved in anything or any market, labor or otherwise. Once you start picking and choosing then the picking and choosing starts expanding and you end up where america is today. I'd prefer to have the federal government as tiny and unintrusive as possible. Less federal government and all its cost multipliers (including but not limited to regulations often supported, paid for, and designed by crony corporate friends of the politcal class to stifle competition) alone will drive the costs down substantially to run a business and thus costs in general. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:16 | 4386005 PT
PT's picture

Listen to meeeee:  "You will be richer, if only you would allow yourself to be poorer!"  We are no longer part of the superstitious age.  We have scientific proof! that you will be richer if only you are poorer.  You are the worker class.  You thrive on competition.  Pay no attention to those CEO folks.  They NEED incentives.  Even though they only do it for the thrill of the deal.  They don't actually need the money.  Except that they do. Just trust me ...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:35 | 4385762 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

With few exceptions, this is the sole purpose of most heads of state. The younger, and more naive, the better.

Look closely, you will see the strings.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:40 | 4385306 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

I'm working on a Politcal Action Committee to run Putin for President; but so far, it's pretty uphill work.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:47 | 4385343 kralizec
kralizec's picture

Yes, so Boris live thru Soviet paradise and knows first hand.  Boris should be speaker in American cities, warn

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:30 | 4385250 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

I'll be happy if they impose maximum wage limits on bankers and some CEO's.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:30 | 4385255 Levadiakos
Levadiakos's picture

Yeah and cap Beiber's pay too

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:38 | 4385302 Carl Popper
Carl Popper's picture

Let us pass a law that salaries have to be capped at a reasonable level.

Let us also limit profits and cap them at a fair level so that no one is allowed to make excess or unfair profits.

Let us appoint a government committee to decide what is a reasonable salary limit and profit cap for each job and industry

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:42 | 4385316 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

I know; we could call it the commisar of workers ! and have a five year plan ! It'll be great ! I can't wait.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:46 | 4385347 Carl Popper
Carl Popper's picture

I am glad someone can appreciate my genius.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:23 | 4385731 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

The only theory that I can see that justifies a "Federal minimum wage" - is when employees can qualify for public assistance due to their poverty status WHILE being employed full time.  "Slum employers" essentially get a subsidy from the public specifically for paying desperate folks less than a "livable wage."


Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:37 | 4386006 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

My point was that you can't address the minimum wage issue without reviewing the entire public assistance system - including the concept of a "social safety net."  They are all intertwined.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:42 | 4385326 Unstable Condition
Unstable Condition's picture

You forgot the /sarc

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:47 | 4385344 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

I think "Carl" is also supposed to be spelled Karl.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:48 | 4385356 Carl Popper
Carl Popper's picture

I am Karl's uneducated twin.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:52 | 4385379 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

My mistake. Please carry on.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:15 | 4385483 Mercuryquicksilver
Mercuryquicksilver's picture

Please include price controls so things don't cost too much.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:23 | 4385513 Carl Popper
Carl Popper's picture

That is a different government agency.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:53 | 4385623 sunnyside
sunnyside's picture

Which would grow to three duplicating agencies.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:19 | 4386010 mumbo_jumbo
mumbo_jumbo's picture

that's called a windfall profits tax and it's been done before.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:49 | 4386669 Falling Down
Falling Down's picture

Lettuce pray?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:55 | 4386694 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

Your avatar name is well-taken, as this is one of the classic movies of all time.

LETTUCE SPRAY, I think you meant.

Fucking tin-fiol-hat-wearing nut-job 'conspiracy-theorist'... _ _ _ ... (We got a NEW CODE, commander!)

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:57 | 4386678 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

@ Levadiakos:


Beibler. Beibler. BEIBLER!

'CAP' Beibler. (Oops, I forgot to finish the rest of the quote)

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:35 | 4385263 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

Yeah, because we should trust the government to control how much private businesses compensate their employees. I mean, their economic theories and policies have worked well so far, right? Yay, totalitarianism!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:39 | 4385295 Joe Davola
Joe Davola's picture

Righto Gene - somehow there will be plenty of loopholes for donors and exemptions for the federales.

WTH, the Chief Exec can just write a memo and declare who is and who isn't making too much/too little.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:31 | 4385252 john39
john39's picture

minimum wage = fake solution.   end central banking and debt based currencies and you wouldn't have to keep the slaves in line by raising up their income a touch to give the appearance of generosity...  meanwhile inflation steals away gains anyway.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:27 | 4385231 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

<-- Minimum Wage = Minimum Jobs

<-- More Jobs

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:29 | 4385247 Levadiakos
Levadiakos's picture

Arranging for one of those beeg window breaaking nights to give work next day

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:31 | 4385256 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Look what Krystalnacht is do for Nazi economy. Maybe is work fine in USSA?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:32 | 4385268 Levadiakos
Levadiakos's picture

Every body Kiev city enjoy full employ at this time

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:37 | 4385284 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Yes, yes, many new employment opportunity in Kiev. Boris is recommend young student for career as glazier or triage medical personnel. If unrest is spread sufficient, maybe new economic age in Eastern Europe.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:49 | 4386673 Falling Down
Falling Down's picture

Glazier, LOL.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 00:09 | 4386732 MontgomeryScott
MontgomeryScott's picture

I used to have a freind, named Chekov, Boris.

That mono-auto-sexual 'Sulu' upstaged him, and became captain of the 'Excelsior'. It was a sad time for all of us in the fleet. His agenda was purely self-centered. D'ya KEN, laddie?

Sulu used to come on the old Enterprise, and flash his little sword around, demanding to get in to Engineering (when he was getting long in the tooth). I actually had to set the phaser on stun, more than one time, and the Doctor had to sedate him, eventually (the phaser burns were starting to hurt him physically, and I wasn't one who could stomach this type of damage to another; even though Sulu was obviously mad).

BORIS: Do you understand what I am hinting at?

(reference: current discussion and new inputs)

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:32 | 4385259 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris is confuse... who is possible vote down for more job...? You are necessary be school in sound economic theory?!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:25 | 4385233 sbenard
sbenard's picture

Obama is the Master of Mendaciousness!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:28 | 4385235 akak
akak's picture

"Dammit Jim, I'm a Keynesian witchdoctor, not an economist!"

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:34 | 4385275 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

LOL! You are make smart funny reference of Star Trek! Now we are need plausible excuse to rip upper uniform of Captain James Tiberius Kirk! (Captain Putin is not need lame excuse, just need horse to ride or bear to wrestle.)

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:50 | 4385368 ILLILLILLI
ILLILLILLI's picture

Someone needs to see that Obama gets his red shirt on....

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:49 | 4386090 gallistic
gallistic's picture

Actually he is from the Austrian tribe, Ludwig von Mises witchdoctor acolyte clan.

"The claim uses the CPI, widely known to overstate inflation, to calculate “real” wages."

WTF!!! This imbecile lost any credibility he might have had in 14 words.

"Minimum wage mendacity" indeed....

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:28 | 4385237 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture



Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:36 | 4385282 Confused
Confused's picture

It would be interesting to see temp agency performance mapped out over the last 4-5 years. I would bet a big company like Robert Half has done a booming business in the temp market, while their permanent employee placement has faltered. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:39 | 4385305 Confused
Confused's picture


Fact #5 is for anyone who is paying attention........

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:27 | 4385240 Dixie Rect
Dixie Rect's picture

Minimum wage increase, better than Sham Wow!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:30 | 4385253 corporatewhore
corporatewhore's picture

what about merit pay?  instead of paying your best employees a minimum wage, pay them over it if they're worth it.  Keep fucking with them and they're going to leave or not give a damn.  In which case they'll just work for minimum wage.

while i'm generally opposed to legislating minimum pay, the problem is employer abuse of it.  I think of Ron Johnson getting paid 54 million to literally drive JCPenney over the cliff and paying his best sales people minimum wage, abolishing commission and other ways to screw the common man.  Ron, of course, got his golden parachute.  JCP employees got their pink slips.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:39 | 4385296 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

you're worth whatever the boss will voluntarily pay. If you don't like it start your own business and be in charge. If you work for somebody you are voluntarily willing to go by what they say. Employers do pay people above the general market wage in some cases because there is a value in keeping people as opposed to having to retrain and constantly have turnover. All of the Wall Street absurdities are not a free market phenomenon. That is because of the cronyism and access to zero interest funding and bailouts if things go bad. In a true free market no way would the executives be so insulated from the company's results. Sure they might have a lot of talent and want to lock in a higher salary and give up some of the upside should their company not do so well, but no way would it be as extreme as say JCP as you noted.

The Fed has artificially intervened and created conditions for leveraged finance/quick one offs versus actually adding value, so people essentially as you say siphon the wealth away and then are on their way, with no skin in the game. ZIRP leads to buybacks and things not prudent for long term but for short term gains. 

But in general American manufacturing clearly is not competitive. If somebody abroad can do something way cheaper, then that is that. Protectionism, tariffs, etc. won't help anything. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:53 | 4385390 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Existing CEO could not start a paper route.  Any argument that equates CEOs with Entrepreneurs or even company builders is false.  The rest of the argument fails from there.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:59 | 4385420 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

Great argument and examples.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:54 | 4385397 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Not true!  Look at all the self made millionaires the tariff on cocaine has produced!  NOW thats some mother fucking entrepenuership in action, right there.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:03 | 4386139 gallistic
gallistic's picture

I think I recognize that fable...

Are you quoting Aesop?

I think the punchline was that Laissez Faire will save us all.


Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:25 | 4386026 PT
PT's picture

corporatewhore:  Exactly.  The minimum wage was supposed to be a minimum.  The fact that so many talented people are stuck on the minimum is proof that the workers have no leverage.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:31 | 4385257 Carl Popper
Carl Popper's picture

If 15 dollars per hour minimum wage is good for the economy why not make it 25? Or 100?

Is there any limit to all the awesome things leftists say happen when minimum wage is raised?

Lets raise it even higher and make all those awesome things even awesomer!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:00 | 4385412 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

That exact same argument worked for CEOs.  Great, lets do it.

Only difference is the perceived labor pool is a different size.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:03 | 4385960 James T. Kirk
James T. Kirk's picture

In regards to CEO's, free markets were never envisioned to reward sociopathy, yet this is exactly what they are doing. We're it not for a fiat money system which enables the continual stealth transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich, the whole Wall Street problem would be at least 75% solved. The lack of a gold standard facilitates corruption, and the corruption learning curve is EXPONENTIAL. Economic "innovation" in a fiat money system EQUALS corruption. Get it? It is accelerating exponentially. There is much more going on here than meets the eye, which can only be explained on a spiritual basis. Welcome to the end times.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:10 | 4386170 gallistic
gallistic's picture

Better yet, let's flip your stupid proposal around and lower the minimum wage to $2.41.

Employers can hire three Americans for the price they pay for one today.

They increase productivity enormously and spend no more than they do today. Unemployment is solved and record profits ensue...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:30 | 4385258 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

The reality is that the USA would not be having this debate if it had shipped so many jobs overseas.

Eventually everything can be outsourced. What then?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:38 | 4385288 Theta_Burn
Theta_Burn's picture


The treasonous outsourcing has been ongoing for yrs. not a peep about that.


Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:40 | 4385314 Carl Popper
Carl Popper's picture


Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:33 | 4385261 Theta_Burn
Theta_Burn's picture

It does make all the spewers of this bullshit sound like they care.

Ross Perot was right, we off-shored everything, there are no jobs folks.

And depending on what election it is and the stance they take, why not blame the Mexicans, its thier fault...Why not blame Bush its his fault.

All they have left is sound bites and bullshit...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:33 | 4385264 Rainman
Rainman's picture

This is all good for the future employment of robots .

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:39 | 4385301 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

The robots are coming, even if the min wage was $5.00....

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:21 | 4385512 gbresnahan
gbresnahan's picture

The higher the minimum wage, the sooner the robots come in

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:31 | 4386031 PT
PT's picture

The robots are SUPPOSED to come in.  I say, INCREASE THE MINIMUM WAGE so the robots can come in FASTER.  We need PRODUCTION, not JOBS.  But if you don't agree, then feel free to dig iron ore out of the ground by hand and walk to the ports, swim to China to deliver it.

I, for one, welcome the robots.  Now where is that four hour working week that was supposed to accompany the robots?


Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:32 | 4386037 PT
PT's picture

Well, Obama has got the hours down to 29.  That is a start.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:16 | 4386191 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

well played PT, well played

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:29 | 4386239 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

That trend has been in place for 13 years now...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:25 | 4385521 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

yes, strongly agree... even the Chinese are learning they can't out-price the labor robots provide... so, what then?

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 02:59 | 4386993 PT
PT's picture

I guess you're gonna have to start paying the robots a decent wage so they can buy all that crap that they are producing.  The humans will all be broke.

That's why I care about PRODUCTION, not JOBS.  If we can develop a machine that only takes one person to operate and that machine can cater for all 7 billion people, then that is a good thing.  Would 7 billion people really be upset about being unemployed?  (Yes, I understand that some idiots are attached to idle hands ... )  Oh, the one guy will feel hard done by as he is the only one doing any work.  Then let him work for one week, or one day and then let someone else take over.  Still no good?  Well let the workers have a bit more than the non-workers.

But this will never happen under capitalism.  "Oh, you can't get paid unless you work for it, and then you can only get paid less than what your starving fellow-slave is willing to work for."  Never mind that the widget machine puts out a billion widgets per hour and no-one can afford to buy any of them.

Builders make houses that no-one can afford.  GM makes cars that no-one can afford.  That's funny.  The labour was there to build them, with plenty of excess labour left over.  Forget the debt and money flows.  What is really happening? 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:59 | 4385647 jaycephus
jaycephus's picture

I make a good living creating robots and automation to replace overpaid min wage workers. I see the creation of wealth first hand. Of course, it is happening because there are two lines converging. Automation equipment and implementatoins become better, and faster, and cheaper, every year, while minimum wages only go up. If min wages stayed level, automation would still be getting cheaper, and thus more and more projects will pass the no-brainer ROI limit, and more min-wage workers will get the boot. What's the solution? Probably not asking Walmart to subsidize un-skilled labor by forcing them to pay above market value so the rest of us don't have to.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:32 | 4385266 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Taking the standard right wing talking point on the minumim wage to its logical conclusion would suggest that in the limit of zero wages, i.e. slavery, one would have full employment...

It is consistent with the game plan that has been in play for 30 years....


Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:42 | 4385322 Carl Popper
Carl Popper's picture

You have a good point.

Demand for labor is infinite at zero cost.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:48 | 4385346 TPTB_r_TBTF
Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:51 | 4385376 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

No shit...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:08 | 4385451 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

And Obama's plan is to raise the minimum wage and leave open the southern border with guaranteed health care and education for all. Fucking genius!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:21 | 4385511 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Umm... ok... whatever.... 

Doesn't the O'Reilly Factor come on about now? 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:50 | 4385618 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

My political views are based on personal experience and observation. For instance, last night it was 9 degrees outside my house. I turned the heater on and kept doors and windows closed. Had I left the doors and windows open, the temperature inside my house would have eventually equaled the temperature outside my house, in spite of my heater operating at full capacity. A rational person can apply the same principle to our economy, our borders and our immigration policy. 

People who support the liberal agenda can't provide any examples of where or when these policies or programs have worked in the past. But still they have faith that it is the right thing to do. Faith is a requirement for religious devotion and not sound political judgement. Keep your religion to yourselves.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:02 | 4385664 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Wow... that was really deep...

I take it back, you are probably a guest on the O'Reilly Factor...

Or should be...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:44 | 4385784 corporatewhore
corporatewhore's picture

What is it with this Obama obsession?

Review of Bush  and Bush Lite and interregnums between indicate the borders have been and will be porous.  There isn't a dime's worth of difference between the two.

If you recognize this, you can recognize it's all one gigantic hoax pitting us against one another and fostering ridiculous conclusions

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:00 | 4385955 Kinskian
Kinskian's picture

So GW is in favor of amnesty, does that inspire confidence in you that amnesty for illegals will be good for our country?

Using common sense and observing current trends, I conclude that the globalists are taking the American worker to parity with the workers of the Third World. It would be ridiculous NOT to come to that conclusion, in spite of falsely promised free healthcare and $15 per hour Obama-burger jobs. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:29 | 4385540 Mercuryquicksilver
Mercuryquicksilver's picture

Once upon a time (1935) the Supreme Court determined minimum wage to be unconstitutional because it interfered with an individual's right to FREELY negotiate wage. 30 years ago the fed minimum was increased from $3.35 to $5.15. Game plan?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:32 | 4385271 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

I saw John Stewart fucking this chicken on The Daily Show. Peter Shiff came out of the segment looking like a heartless douche....mission accomplished. I smell a PR blitz brewing. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:38 | 4385289 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Peter Schiff said what he believed. He would have said the exact same stuff in CNBC interview...

And he is a Douche.... That's right, douche with a capital D....

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:44 | 4385334 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

Except that he's 100% right.

A person's worth from a wage standpoint is directly tied to what they can contribute. Some handicapped individuals are obviously only going to be able to provide services to an employer that are worth a couple of bucks an hour. Others will be "worth" more from a wage perspective. Same goes for some non-handicapped people too, frankly.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:52 | 4385378 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Business is not about touchy feely BS. A businessman wants to make a profit and might have to hire somebody to help him pursue that. At the EOD his revenue has to be above his costs (including labor) so that is the constraint. Read what I wrote above. In many cases employers will pay people slightly above what the market wage would be because they value not having turnover and not having to retrain people. 

People don't hire people to create jobs; it's to make a profit. And even if they want to do the former more so, they are constrained by needing to be able to come out breakeven+ to keep things running. Work is a means to consumption; not more work. Nobody is telling anyone they have to work for anyone. 

What is needed is productivity; purchasing power. Everybody in Soviet Union had a 'job' yet nothing to show for it. The businessman is doing a great thing if he can find a way to use less inputs to get the same output. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:58 | 4385406 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

Consider the mentally handicapped worker who actually does get paid below minimum wage for his or her limited productivity rather than sitting around a group home somewhere languishing away. There's actually a whole industry out there placing these people in relatively simple jobs if they want it. By all accounts it's a win/win situation, and these people couldn't be happier to not only be actively involved in life, but to get something in return for their efforts. Those who attack Schiff on this point would prefer to remove their (limited) productivity from the work force entirely. For what?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:41 | 4386064 PT
PT's picture

Years ago the company I worked for hired some "special" people at one dollar per hour.  The govt made up the difference so those "special" people could have a living wage.  The company still ended up sacking them as they were still not productive enough.  What does it really mean to be earning $40 per week when you can't survive on less that $300 per week?  What does it mean when able-bodied workers are unemployed, to be displaced by someone on $40 per week plus govt bennies?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:17 | 4385494 Marco
Marco's picture

Productivity per actual worker (though not per capita) is going nowhere but up.

Consumption on the other hand is running into limits, some man made ... some natural.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:31 | 4385546 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

That productivity figure is BS STATISTicians' sleight of hand as the effect of inflation is way understated. Why is there $billions of trade deficit per month then if Americans were so productive? 

The free market is the environment in which productivity grows. That's why TVs and cell phones get better AND cheaper. The Fed's inflation though distorts valuations and numbs people from realities such as peoples' mindset that 'deficits don't matter' as debts and unfunded liabilities that dwarf them grow exponentially.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:52 | 4385621 Marco
Marco's picture

I didn't say Americans as a whole were productive, I said per worker productivity is going nowhere but up.

US median wage levels are too high to compete internationally for a lot of products regardless of productivity, lowering them would collapse the global economy though (consumer of last resort and all).

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:19 | 4385720 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

The Chinese can consume their own productivity. American exceptionalism used to mean industriousness and innovation and respect for private property and liberty. Now as statism has taken hold America just uses fiat and force and jams its military and its toilet paper down others' throats. 

Consumption does not drive the economy. Meeting those desires by producing things is what does. Certainly the Chinese have it too far to the one side of not consuming enough--work is a means to consumption, not more work--but they are productive and have high savings rates, and don't 'need Americans'. True they will have to allow their currency to appreciate and quit the export game, but it is an easier transition to go from savings to getting to consume than it is to go from borrowing and consuming to producing and being thrifty.

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 01:48 | 4386938 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Hate to break it to you but a big part of "American Exceptionalism" was having a rich continent to plunder, not to mention being the worlds largest producer of oil until the 1970's....

Having a very good foundation, rationality firmed rooted in the Enlightenment expressed through the Consitution certainly played a role as well...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:45 | 4385342 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

He might be a mean douche for all i know, but there is a big difference in a straight interview on CNBC and a cleverly edited segment on a comedy show. John Stewart is funny on a good day but he's no stranger to propaganda placement for Wall st. and DC. He's a smooth and effective operator in that racket.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:50 | 4385367 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

So you really think Schiff was set up?

Would you like me to link the clip?

Schiff jumped in with both feet...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:01 | 4385422 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

No thanks, saw it.

Schiff said what he said, but If you think he was on for any other reason than to be harvested for juicy soundbites you clearly haven't watched much TV with the lights on.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:11 | 4385461 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

So Schiff knowingly said things which he knew that would be harvested for soundbites to make him look like insensitive prick...

Ya, ok, whatever....

Schiff may be a pompous shill, but he is no dumb bunny when it comes to putting the interests of Mr. Schiff at the forefront...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:03 | 4385658 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

If you think Schiff was answering questions in sequence and as presented in that segment or that the shots where the "reporter" and him were shown in the same frame was genuine i don't know what to tell you. (He's eyes might give you a clue.)

I don't really have a dog in this fight and you seem to be thriving on flak while being off target, so i'm not going to help you continue to get your rocks off....but in closing, your deep laothing for this guy can't be healthy and it appears to me that you should take some time off and rise the sand and what ever else might be up there out of your vagina sooner rather than later.

Safety first buddy.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:35 | 4385563 jaycephus
jaycephus's picture

Schiff's brother said it took over four hours of interviewing to get the soundbites out of Peter that they needed. Schiff's pretty sharp, and takes on any debaters, and he knew going in they were going to try to ambush him. Of course, Schiff is absolutely correct. Even you, as dumb as you try to be on the minimum wage, figured it out above. A wage is a price. Supply and demand applies. Demand for something valuable goes very, very high, if the price is low. Demand goes down if the price rises. Alternate solutions arise to replace the supply if the price goes too high. If the price is higher than the perceived value, the item will just gather dust on the shelf. Labor is no different. How much wheat bread would be sold tomorrow if the governent mandated a minimum price per loaf of bread of $15, especially if alternative breads are already available on the shelf right next to the wheat-based bread. How many alternatives to wheat bread will be produced if such a law is passed? This is all no-brainer stuff. Easy to understand. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:48 | 4386086 PT
PT's picture

How about a mandated price of bread of five cents per loaf?  How much bread stays on the shelf?  You can lower the price, but eventually there is a limit to how much bread people will actually eat.  The advantage to the loaf of bread is that it does not starve to death while sitting on the shelf.

The free market minimum wage is a bowl of porridge and you sleep on the factory floor, all the while the boss screaming that "there is no better way".

"Please sir.  Can I have some more?" 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:55 | 4385400 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Min. wage prices underskilled people out of the job market. They can't even get on the lowest rungs. These kids roaming the streets doing mob runs in stores could be working for $5/hr or whatever to start out and prove themselves. This along with the drug laws which make illicit drug trade so lucrative go hand in hand. I don't even think these are 'unintended' consequences; the Left wants more people on the dole so they won't bite the hand that feeds them.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:58 | 4385407 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

And then you'll probably say 'what does $5 buy one'? Well, you can thank the Fed for that. See, all of this is due to government intervention. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:20 | 4385501 Marco
Marco's picture

What guarantuee is there that the lowest rung will be above subsistence?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:25 | 4385524 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

A job of that sort was never meant to provide for a family. If we had a robust economy with total voluntaryism and no taxation and sound money instead of fiat usurious system, these kinds of jobs would probably only be for people just looking for a side job or something. Bottom line again is you're worth what you're worth to the boss if you are willing to work for him. 

People start out at a very low wage but prove themselves and if they can move elsewhere and the current employer won't give a raise, then they will move elsewhere. That's competition. Everyone is a capitalist. 


Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:54 | 4385628 Marco
Marco's picture

What guarantuee is there that the lowest rung will be above subsistence?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:05 | 4385672 sunnyside
sunnyside's picture

1.  Who says that it should?  The "lowest rung" should be temporary as you gain more skills to be worth more.  You don't like the wage, go start your own company and pay yourself from the profits what you think you are worth.


2.  There are no guarantees in life other than death.......and that my wife hates me.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:10 | 4385698 Marco
Marco's picture

That has to be very fucking temporary if it's below subsistence ...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:22 | 4385729 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Again, nobody is entitled to anything, as the above poster said. And I'm calling for sound money and no taxation and no STATiSM which would mean a much more robust economy. 

Henry Ford paid higher wages shrewdly. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:41 | 4385776 Marco
Marco's picture

So was anyone ever entitled to enclosure?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:03 | 4385963 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Those who own the land through property contracts or else by being the first in mixing their labor with the land and steading there (in frontier type fashion) own that land. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:11 | 4385973 Marco
Marco's picture

So they were entitled to enclosure?

Most land has one or more thefts in it's history of course, how exactly does something transition from stolen back to rightful property? Is there some church of Rothbard with clerics who can re-sanctify the land?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:39 | 4386054 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

The transition to total private property has to take place. The only 'common' properties technically are owned by a person or are owned by a voluntary group of people. 


I'm an anarcho-capitalist. Private arbitrage judges who a priori would be agreed upon would interpret contracts. The whole premise of an anarcho-capitalist society is that the people would have reverence for liberty and private property, so keep that in mind.



Thu, 01/30/2014 - 22:21 | 4386399 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Just make sure that no one can buy the courts...

My fuck you guys are naive...

But it sure does sound good on paper....

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 23:09 | 4386550 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

only courts with a sound reputation would be given the ability to arbitrate. There would be competition in the justice system, instead of a monopoly as is now. Reputations are the thing that are paramount in the anarcho capitalist system.

Somebody gets a bad one they get boycotted or exiled or both. 

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 01:49 | 4386733 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

You are living in denial of the human condition...5000 years of history says you have rose colored glasses on...

You are even worse than those naive leftists who swallowed Marxist-Lenninist dogma. The old saying, fool me once, shame on you comes to mind...

And if you still don't get it: If I have 10 billion dollars I can buy whatever justice I desire, or hire an army to stop you from imposing your view....

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 05:09 | 4387079 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

Unlike Leftists I don't pretend there is a utopia. America was a special place and it was because of laissez faire. There were still some tough things going on, but there was a rugged frontier mentality and work ethic, lift one up by one's own bootstraps, instead of poor old me, what can I get from the government now? Or, 'he offended me, I'm suing.'

There were some banking panics but they were quickly alleviated by market forces, and anyway if one reads up on this they were basically false flag ones as the Zionists sought to find a crisis to conjure support for their diabolical banking system. 


It would take a hell of a lot for some rogue agents to from scratch become a statist entity with total control. Whereas with even a 'limited' government, the apparatus is in place to subdue and tame that. Otherwise, these bad people have to overcome private defense agencies, and other societal infrastructure. I'm not betting whether certain things happen; I'm just against statism, as while it's not ahard to explain the unintended consequences of interventionism, in the first place, too, statism implicitly means theft and coercion, rather than persuasion and voluntaryism. 

Fri, 01/31/2014 - 09:51 | 4387460 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

What you miss is that the state will reinvent itself because there will always be some entity that will project their power and control...

Unless of course you wanna play the Hunter Gatherer game and even then you have the local Elders not to mention his Shaman sidekick...

As I said the Human Condition abhors a power vacuum...

I have 5000 years of history on my side where you got nothing but warm fuzzies...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:55 | 4385632 RKDS
RKDS's picture

Forget a family, try to provide for _yourself_ on minimum wage, you ignorant slut.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:07 | 4385679 sunnyside
sunnyside's picture

You can't......and it wasn't designed to.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 18:36 | 4385771 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

It's up to a fellow to figure out how to add enough value that he can have a livelihood. Figure out his niche, maybe have to start out small. Nobody is entitled to anything, and implicit in your answer is your vast underestimation of charity, especially charity/mutual aid societies that were Christian based that were wholesome and skin in the game vs. anonymously receiving benefits and all the scams of course that go along with that. 

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 19:49 | 4385925 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

There is ONLY 1 guarantee in this life:  Everyone's life is FINITE!

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 20:50 | 4386101 PT
PT's picture

The minimum wage is supposed to be a minimum.  The skilled workers are supposed to be paid more.  The fact that they aren't paid more is proof that they have no leverage no matter how productive they are.  How much leverage does a skilled worker have?  Well, what does the "Employee of the Month" get?  How about the guy that comes second?

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 21:16 | 4386188 gallistic
gallistic's picture

Peter Schiff is a broken record who is a 10 times recycled Douche.

He deserves to be ridiculed and be given the Jon Stewart "treatment"...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:35 | 4385280 youngman
youngman's picture

For the USA to get back to work..they will need 1 million small companies to start up.....and they will do things like...fix and repair  clothes...clean things....third world need jobs just to get food in your mouths....and a habit of working to progress on..we will have many hands to do the work....we just need to be able to put them to work....and that is the bottom tier of jobs....dirty jobs...starter jobs...where they learn to do something....and do it....and get paid something for will not be much as others will take their place if they quit....and that is way below minimum wage I think...but right now its to easy to live off the government

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:39 | 4385311 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

So a cobbler is an "entry level shit job"....

Fuck me, once upon a time that was considered a trade...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:48 | 4385366 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

Things change when you can take the bus down to Walmart and buy a new-but-shitty pair of sneakers for $5.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 16:50 | 4385371 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

And you don;t fix $5 sneakers either...

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:19 | 4385500 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

Speaking of tradesmen, I haven't seen my local cooper around much lately. I hope he's OK.

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:22 | 4385515 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Hye, it wasn't me who brought up "fixing shoes".....

Thu, 01/30/2014 - 17:29 | 4385544 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

I know, but I had to run with it. Back to business.

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