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Bitcoin Flash Crashes, Drops By 80% In Seconds

Tyler Durden's picture


Now that Bitcoin exchange Mt.Gox has terminally discredited itself following the latest, and likely last, withdrawal halt announced late last week which sent the value of Bitcoin tumbling by 25%, Bitcoin traders are left with just two exchange options on which to transact: BTC-e and Bitstamp. And for those using the former to buy and sell the virtual digital currency, things went from bad to worse a few short hours ago, when Bitcoin had its very own "Waddell and Reed" moment, when the price of Bitcoin cratered by over 80% in the span of seconds, after a modest block of just under 6000 Bitcoins sent the price plunging from over $600 to $102.

However, market gymnastics may just be the tip of the iceberg - a far bigger issue, one we have been warning about since the last March surge in Bitcoin's dollar price, is that the crackdown on Bitcoin both in the US (see "Miami Bitcoin Arrests May Be First State Prosecution"), and around the world (in Russia Bitcoin was just declared illegal) is finally heating up. It's only going to get worse in an insolvent world desperate to halt money laundering.

And since digital currency advocates have finally realized they can't hold the electronic 1s and 0s in their hand in a worst case scenario, the biggest winner of the latest Bitcoin crash is none other than the real alternative currency (in Paul Singer's words), gold, which moments ago just hit a one month high and rising.


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Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:27 | 4419455 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Not a flash crash crisis bitches!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:28 | 4419464 remain calm
remain calm's picture

Gold baby

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:31 | 4419490 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

Bitcoin is starting to look like DOW. Both will crash.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:41 | 4419506 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Yawn, I've been waiting for this crash for over a month and thought it would have happened sooner.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:43 | 4419524 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

A bug in the bitcoin software makes it possible for someone to use the Bitcoin network to alter transaction details to make it seem like a sending of bitcoins to a bitcoin wallet did not occur when in fact it did occur. Since the transaction appears as if it has not proceeded correctly, the bitcoins may be resent. MtGox is working with the Bitcoin core development team and others to mitigate this issue.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:48 | 4419532 malikai
malikai's picture

Yep. Nice work Tylers on failing to report the real reason for the dip.

Also nice work on pre-concluding that Gox has suicided itself. In fact, Gox appears to have done the right thing for a change.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:49 | 4419541 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



So I get this letter from the NSA...


"Our records indicate you purchased a bitcoin 6 months ago...but our predictive systems in Utah showed us you should have sold it last week. We'd just like to ask what's up with that?"

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:55 | 4419573 kralizec
kralizec's picture

Looks like they took care of that for nice of them, eh?

Oh, paging FoneStar, FoneStar pick up the red panic phone please...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:01 | 4419586 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin is $633 on BTC-E right now, or another 7% drop by fonestar's math.  But Bitcoin can "crash" again before payday that would be great!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:12 | 4419606 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

I get paid on Mondays 0800 GMT at the market rate in BTC.  Received almost twice as much as last week, nice.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:21 | 4419633 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

How come we don't get 80% flash crashes in physical gold, ammo or long term storage food?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:32 | 4419664 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Saturated markets with deeper liquidity.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:51 | 4419716 CH1
CH1's picture

Oh no, Bitcoin has died... again!!!

Are we at eight deaths now, or is it ten?

The haters never learn.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:56 | 4419740 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes Bitcoin is all over!! It's only $640!!


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:57 | 4419943 XitSam
XitSam's picture

You can't lose if you don't play.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:00 | 4419956 fonestar
fonestar's picture

As everything continues to hyperdeflate in value compared to Bitcoin, not only will they lose but they will lose big.  But lose is what losers historically do.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:16 | 4420003 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

When does BC blow through the price of gold again?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:30 | 4420058 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

If you don't hold it you don't own it. 6 million ways to get fleeced. Gold ain't one of 'em.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:20 | 4420209 fonestar
fonestar's picture

If one ounce of gold winds up being worth 0.01 BTC five years from now, I would call that an act of self-fleecing.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:31 | 4420236 yrat
yrat's picture

btc flash crash = what should actually happen in an unmanipulated market when a market sell order takes out every single bid.


made a cool 40% btc profit this morning in 10 sec.  could have been 10x that but who was expecting that insane red candle!  i thought grabbing some btc at 400 was a steal, but 120???  yikes.


i'm thinking some fat finger made a big mistake this morning.  either put in a sell order instead of a buy, OR a market sell at a lower than intended price.  the way BTC-e works, if your ask is lower than the current price, the order is automatically a market order.  selling 6k btc down to $100 just doesn't make sense.


lots of money changed hands this morning.  just glad a piece of it landed in mine...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:32 | 4420240 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Wish fonestar could have been there but good on you!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:01 | 4420316 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

yes BTFD. Bitcoin, its a  commodity, investment, a currency. and a virtual girlfriend. What doesn't it do? 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:02 | 4420326 fonestar
fonestar's picture

What doesn't it do?

Get understood or owned by morons.  That's what.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:06 | 4420344 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

oh I forgot, you can hump it with your bitdick.

Like bitcoins, you can't see it but you know its there because a computer screen says so. 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:46 | 4420505 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitdicks are going to be seeing a lot of action if the near futurez.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:28 | 4421929 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"Bitcoin is starting to look like DOW. Both will crash."

DOW has productive and tangible assets.  

Bitcoin has speculators and acolytes.

Aside from that.....well....not much in common.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:46 | 4420500 Haole
Haole's picture


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:00 | 4420327 A L I E N
Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:02 | 4421068 WelfareFTW
WelfareFTW's picture

where do ya trade BTC?

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 11:24 | 4423741 aminorex
aminorex's picture

bitfinex for margined trading.  if you just want to buy and hold in the u.s. i recommend coinbase

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:38 | 4420085 fonestar
fonestar's picture

When does BC blow through the price of gold again?

Sometime this year.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:03 | 4420328 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

bitcoin blows 365 days a year.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:12 | 4420372 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, it's been blowing gold and silver's manipulated prices right out of the water for 365 days a year for five years now.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:44 | 4420104 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"As everything continues to hyperdeflate in value compared to Bitcoin"

"everything"?  "hyper"?? EVERYTHING????

Dude you are officially full of shit at this point, and ANYONE who supports you is a clueless fuck point blank.

Last year you posted that you bought some Btc at $800 (after HAVING SOLD them a few months earlier at $200).

Unless you have a completely FUCKED UP selective memory and cherry pick your time frame....YOUR BTC investment has been a loser since you bought at $800.  Oh, and there's that 1600% annualized LOSS you suffered in selling at 200 and buying them back at 800 a few months later.

Everything?  I'd be 99% more accurate if I said that "everything ELSE has gained in value since the bitfraud peak at $1256.

FULL... OF... SHIT, and your idiot acolytes too.  You've managed single-handedly to all but completely discredit a moderately amusing and moderately useful item, and you've managed to alienate nearly everyone who's on the fence.  Makes one wonder whether it is YOU who is against Btc and crypto.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:49 | 4420121 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I've been buying since $16 fuck head.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:27 | 4420231 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin nice at $666 as fonestar types.


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 15:06 | 4420560 chemystical
chemystical's picture


I'll sell you all you can handle at $800 USD per.  That's where it was the last time you bloviated about buying.  Should be good to go now too, eh?  And if it's going to be 5, or 6 or 7 digit per USD (as you laughingly posted easrlier in the thread) you'd be a fool not to jump at $800.

FONECLOWN.  Sagacious investor (sic).    Not a pot to piss in, and apparently not creditworthy enough that a lender would help you "pay some bills" you sold at 200 and bought at 800.  Brilliant I tell you.  Fucking brilliant.  You can't have it both ways.  You have shaky beliefs or you';re a fucking liar.

You should be more careful remember your bullshit lies.  Tell the truth; it never changes and is easy to rememeber.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 15:10 | 4420587 fonestar
fonestar's picture

And what lies would those be? 

fonestar would have been buying more Bitcoin at any levels anyway whether he had to sell some the month before or not.  All fonestar does is buy more Bitcoin at any price.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 15:03 | 4420554 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

@XitSam: "You can't lose if you don't play."

You should have added "You can't win either, if you don't play." to be intellectually honest.

Nothing ventured, nothing lost.  Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 03:19 | 4423034 Cyberg
Cyberg's picture


can't win, cuz I nothing to LOSE!

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 09:52 | 4423478 XitSam
XitSam's picture

You should have said "to make an intellectually honest statement."

I was just making a minor play on the state authorized numbers game (lottery) slogan of "You can't lose if you don't play."

All investment involves risk. Including gold. But gold is an investment that has never gone to zero and has a several thousand year track record. ElectroCoins have too much risk for me.

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 11:08 | 4423689 aminorex
aminorex's picture

In the case of bitcoin, you can venture nothing, and yet gain enormously.  Even a single bitcoin, basically nothing, will be enough to provide your children with retirement.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:47 | 4419720 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Be looking for further drops as people try get their coins out of Gox and to somewhere better.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:29 | 4420057 Slave
Slave's picture

They really need to cap your posts at 5 a day or something...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:05 | 4420155 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fat fucking chance on that.

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 09:54 | 4423482 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Really?  Would you like to ask Trav about that?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:36 | 4419681 fonestar
fonestar's picture

There are no fucking gold markets (for the zillionth time!!!)

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:17 | 4419821 thelibcentury
thelibcentury's picture

what does this even mean? 

are there individuals that exchange gold for other goods? then there are gold markets. 


don't try too hard to be smart, you might hurt something...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:50 | 4419924 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Based on what do they sell?  Oh right, the manipulated paper contract price!  Because we all know how much the fake fed-hating (loving) gold bugs like to kowtow to the establishment.



Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:12 | 4421104 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

There are gold markets, there's just no longer a way for them to discover a real price based on real people who want to hold real value. 100:1 LBMA, Comex tricks, futures market slams, GLD raiding, naked short selling, rehypothecation. It's done, corrupt, over. It would be nice to think it was something you could hold as a store of value...but when you need to convert it to fiat in order to spend, and that fiat reference price is 100% totally and completely mainpulated, then you're screwed. And don't start with how you and Mad Max are going to go to the grocery store with a pile of gold dust...puh-leeze.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:11 | 4419987 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

'cause HFTs don't trade those.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:59 | 4419754 fonestar
fonestar's picture


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:37 | 4420076 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

Like I said.  Sure!  When it reaches $10.00

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:18 | 4419622 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

It's name was bitcoin.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:20 | 4419636 BLOTTO
BLOTTO's picture

Shitcoin just took a big DUMP and we need a plunger to unclog the shitter...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:25 | 4419645 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Time to get in on the ground floor for this stable alternative currency! It can't be manipulated! To the moon!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:31 | 4419657 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:53 | 4419730 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin doesn't need fed-loving ZH posters to win against global fiat currencies.  You're a bunch of pussies and wimps, bend over and grease up for the money masters you love.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:51 | 4420126 superflex
Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:01 | 4420146 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Let's just preemptively say all world governments ban Bitcoin?

Why should fonestar care?  He doesn't give a fuck about "laws".

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:37 | 4420250 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

Invested heavily in steel bars.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 15:42 | 4420731 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

Are you for real. Oops, let me rephrase that.  Is fonestar for real.  You I mean fonestar sounds like fonestar is made of the same substance as bitcoin.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:31 | 4421162 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

So do you peddle smack too?  Lots of profit to be found in the heroin trade.  Why let somehting inconsiquential like fear of prison get in the way?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:44 | 4420280 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

"fed-loving ZH posters"

fonestar?  Really?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:48 | 4420287 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Hey, don't listen to fonestar Meat Hammer... just go back and read it in their own words.  They would rather side with the Federal Reserve and their paper rectangles than Bitcoin and have stated so on multiple occasions here.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:03 | 4420331 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

It's not an either/or, it's just skepticism about BTC.  If you think any of us love our fiat masters you're sorely mistaken.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:14 | 4420379 fonestar
fonestar's picture

No, it's not just skepticism.  They actually said they would rather own debt-based paper rectangles instead of Bitcoin.  That is not skepticism.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:16 | 4420392 Meat Hammer
Meat Hammer's picture

Yes, because of their skepticism about Bitcoin, fiat is still the smartest retard, tallest midget, if you will.  That doesn't make them fed-lovers.  Any credibility you had left (which wasn't much) went out the window with that comment.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:32 | 4420447 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It seems quite simple to fonestar.  If you don't like using something, you investigate the alternatives.  A person with no technical background might have to spend a few months doing research and reading but they should be able to come to an understanding.  But it's evident from the comments they have done no research at all.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 15:08 | 4420382 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

fonestar, forgive me, but it occurs to me that you might be too heavily invested emotionally (and quite possibly literally) to turn the cold light of logic on this issue. I'm not trying to be snarky here, but to me, bitcoin feels like a mania and smells like tulips. If you believe that it is a legitimate alternative currency, and I will grant that possibility, because it appears that you can purchase actual things with it (though unless you are a miner you must first buy them with currency, kind of like gold in reverse, which you have to convert into currency to spend), then you must also understand that an entity such as the government of the United States (or more specifically its owner, the Federal Reserve), with all its power and the guns to back up that power, would never tolerate such a challenge to its constitutionally-given right to coin the currency of the country, a thing that is the pulsing heart of its very existence, the source from which all power flows, the one ring to rule them all. Historically, the US government has responded with swift and absolutely brutal ferocity to any challenge to its perogatives and has become even more thuggish as time goes on. If it does not respond in the expected manner, or only offers token resistance I would ask myself why. I can think of several possible reasons without even putting on my thinking cap and I don't like them. So sorry, but the most benign involve milking you like a cow.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 22:01 | 4422277 webbie
webbie's picture

My only rebuttle to that is that it can't possibly be a bubble because of the relatively small amount of participants.... There is said to be roughly less than 2 million users WORLDWIDE! With adoption happening everyday we are still in the early phases.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 16:41 | 4420712 EscapingProgress
EscapingProgress's picture

You Bitcoin haters are cuming in your pants. Enjoy yourselves. It will be short lived. BTC $10k baby. This is a problem exclusive to Mt. Gox's shitty wallet. This is not a problem with the Bitcoin protocol. Bask in your ignorance I guess.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 22:08 | 4422300 webbie
webbie's picture

Amen to that! I tell you, for there to be so much information available at one's fingertips you would think people would actually read and do a little research for themselves on the matter. It clearly is an issue that has been known since 2011, and Mtgox neglated to code around... Smh

My gain though, bought twice - once yesterday @ $725 and today @ $640.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 15:45 | 4420715 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I continue to be amazed by the intellectual midgets and political hypocrites and phoneys who call themselves "libertarians", and are actually rejoicing at the trials & tribulations that Bitcoin is having.

Clearly it is beyond your Cro-Magnon brains or thimble-sized souls to grasp that Bitcoin is a far, FAR greater threat to TPTB than your measly coin collection will ever be.  If you lack the capacity or courage to participate in its growth, then at least have the brains and decency to watch it from the sidelines, or cheer for it. 

And if you can't do that either (cheer), then I have NO sympathy for you if you're getting screwed by TPTB -- as you are a mere low-life and wretch of a being.  Alternatively, you are clearly a troll, which is one notch higher on the food-chain, as they are at least getting paid for their "dissing" services.

[indignant] Kirk out.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:57 | 4421287 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

Nah, it's more like "the trials and tribulations we warned you were coming"


we'd alll love to see the Fed fold.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:20 | 4421408 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

You're a true believer. You're emotionally invested here and your statement is all faith-based. You write of bitcoin as if it was the messiah come to free us from the bondage of TPTB, elevating it from an investment and thus a gamble, to a religion where due diligence becomes heresy. I find that dangerous.  

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:38 | 4419655 Zero Hung
Zero Hung's picture

"FoneStar and the Golden Fleeced"

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:49 | 4419719 lordylord
lordylord's picture

People who "mined" the easy 1's and 0's probaly don't care too much about what price they sell it for as long as they "mined" a good quantity.  Sold some bitcoins after an 80% crash?  Who cares?  It's easy money.   Better than holding worthless bitcoins.  The only question is if they found a sucker to buy it for $150 or $600.  God help the sucker who bought at >$1000. 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:54 | 4419735 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin will go to five, six and seven figures just as easily as it did one, two, three and four figures.  It might be difficult for someone who thinks in dollars to comprehend.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:56 | 4419746 lordylord
lordylord's picture

I think in terms of value.  The value of bitcoin will be nothing once governments regulate it...or people just simply lose interest in it and move on to something else.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:03 | 4419766 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Well your thoughts are worthless because Bitcoin can't be regulated.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:10 | 4420170 Drifter
Drifter's picture

No, but YOU can be regulated idiot.  If your govt outlaws bitcoin possession and /or use, you will be a criminal when bitcoin won't.

And that's exactly how it'll go down.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:12 | 4420179 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Haha... good luck on regulating the Bitcoin network and the Bitcoin users!  We don't give a shit about you, your government and its "laws"!  If they want to push Bitcoin underground that's fine with me, it goes to the moon either way.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:25 | 4420221 Drifter
Drifter's picture

Hope you enjoy being Bubba's bitch in prison.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:59 | 4421298 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

Other way around, as long as Bubba takes bitcoin.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:21 | 4420404 Invinciblehandaxe
Invinciblehandaxe's picture

I guess you wont care from prison as well. Dont you get it Fonestar? If they make it illegal there will be no vendors selling shit in bitcoins and no exchanges neither!!!

Your bitcoin can be worth zillions in what ever you choose but all you'll be able to do with it is wipe your ass...wait a you wont be able to do that either :)

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:42 | 4420488 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Who is they?  And more importantly why should people around the globe care about them?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:26 | 4420421 sleigher
sleigher's picture

And then only criminals will be the ones not wearing seatbelts...  Really?  Prohibition has always worked out so well...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:50 | 4420512 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

How is gold any different in this respect? Gold Reserve Act of 1934, anyone?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:02 | 4421309 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

It's called the black market.  But bitcoin transactions are recorded where?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 16:08 | 4420851 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Just to be clear: 

1. You lack confidence in Bitcoin because TPTB in the US will "regulate" it?

2. Yet I'll wager you a silver eagle that you favor PM to fight TPTB, is that right?  If so, then...

3. You also lack the smarts to realize that PM has been, is being and will continue to be both manipulated** and regulated.

** The dirty little secret that Tyler and certain gold shills didn't warn you about, when so many of you/us tried to "front-run" the Fed ("fight the Fed") since the Summer of 2012 and the Fed's QE program with PM purchases/speculation, but got burned big time.


Given all the moaning & whining about Bitcoin, just what part of the following do (some of) you not grasp:

[1] Official Economy = fiat currency + fiat debt + fiat Derivatives + fiat taxes = fiat Serfdom to CBs

[2] Parallel Economy = Barter + Cash + PM + Crypto-Currencies + Real_Assets = Market-driven = Freedom from CBs and TPTB

Note:  At the risk of stating the obvious (but isn't at all obvious to too many ZH bloggers), what one component of [2] won't do for you in your situation, another one will.  You have to think of a Mix of Assets from [2], rather than the single-variable (one-trick pony or magic bullet) mindset.

Put another way... PM and Bitcoin are not enemies or even competitors.  What TPTB fail to admit and what the new Zerohedge owners still fail to tell you, is that they are in fact NATURAL PARTNERS in the process to dethrone the fiat system of CBs.

[3] Gold+Bitcoin = FiatKillers

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:03 | 4419774 tmosley
tmosley's picture

As I say with all the ZH bitcoin haters, replace "bitcoin" with "gold" and then hit yourself in the face with a hammer for being a hypocritical idiot.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:23 | 4419835 lordylord
lordylord's picture

Gold is a store of value and when the game of world fiat currecy is over, gold will still have value.  Bitcoin will have no value because at that time it won't be convertable to fiat.  What is the value of bitcoin without fiat?  Probably closer to nothing that the $600 worth of goods/services it is now.  What is the value of an once of gold?  Well, I have history on my side to determine that.      

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:05 | 4419968 fonestar
fonestar's picture

After the dollar, Bitcoin will continue to have hundreds of advantages over physical gold and silver.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:40 | 4420091 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

Meaning I can take my wallet, stick it in the ground for 30 years, and then dig it up and have it still be worth something?


Or perhaps the ocean?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:05 | 4420157 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, if you backup and store 1 BTC for thirty years you will be very rich.  Young traders will be talking about making their first Bitcoin by that time.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:20 | 4420015 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Again, replace "bitcoin" with "gold" and hit yourself in the face with a hammer (get a larger one this time, didn't seem to take last time) for being a stupid hypocrite.

You can buy gold with bitcoins directly already.  You think you won't be able to afte a dollar collapse?  Maybe you've hit yourself in the face with hammers a little too much.

I never said SHIT about not owning gold.  I am 95% silver, 5% bitcoin, ffs.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:56 | 4420131 superflex
superflex's picture


95% Silver.

Way to diversify.

Good luck with that Copernicus.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:04 | 4420154 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

How many ways can YOU split a Benjamin?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:08 | 4420171 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Way to diversify.


I think you meant diworsify.  The time tested method for pussies and losers who don't know what they're buying and selling.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:58 | 4420317 lordylord
lordylord's picture


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:59 | 4420324 lordylord
lordylord's picture

The only reason you can buy gold with bitcoin is because you can convert bitcoin to fiat. If you can not convert bitcoin to fiat, no body in their right mind would trade gold for 1's and 0's. Stop equating gold to bitcoin. Bitcoin is a service at best. It is not money.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:59 | 4420539 fredquimby
fredquimby's picture

And the only reason you can buy gold, is that FIAT is currently worth something. In a few months, people might only take gold for their bitcoin. Funnier things have happened.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:42 | 4421217 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Folks have been directly trading land for gold and vise versa for many moons.  I anticipate that this type of trade will go on for much longer than BC for land, or land for BC.  

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:37 | 4419890 lordylord
lordylord's picture

I would also like to add that buying and holding gold is not a money making scheme.  It protects your future.  Bitcoin is just being pumped by people who want to make money for doing no work and cheerleaded by angsty anonymous internet users with grandiose visions of a future where governements willingly allow the return of sound money and free markets.  The ONLY way  we get back to sound money and free markets is if a total collapse happens first.  At that time, some meaningless internet coins will be worthless.  

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:07 | 4419973 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Stop picking on the mentally weak.... I meant fonestar. It just isn't fair!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:18 | 4419822 OceanX
OceanX's picture

So tell me, how is that government regualtion doing with BitTorrent?

You don't know anyone that has violated copyrights?  traded files, mp3s, bootleg software, movies?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:27 | 4419850 lordylord
lordylord's picture

Will, for example, accept bitcoins when it is illegal?  No, they won't.  BTW, ask the guys who were exchanging bitcoins for silkroad how they are doing. 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:52 | 4420127 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Nobody gives a shit what your .gov says.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:55 | 4420298 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

"Nobody gives a shit what your .gov says."

..not even the people which said .gov puts in .prison?

...pretty sure they would .care you .twit

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:16 | 4420386 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Right, I forgot... your .gov controls all prisons on Earth (like those in Syria, N. Korea and Iran). 

Ever do any travelling by chance?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:22 | 4420393 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

There are mutliple countries on Earth? Why yes, and they all have governments with the ability to imprison people.

WTF is your point exactly?


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:34 | 4420464 fonestar
fonestar's picture

That none of these governments act together because it is not in their best interests to do so.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 15:44 | 4420734 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

They all have fiat currencies, and if BTC ever becomes a threat to their respective currencies, they all have an interest in suppressing BTC, just like they all have an interest in suppressing gold.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:24 | 4419840 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

The only stability of prices is instability. I think the prices of something as novel, supposedly digitally liquid ( a more modern, digital word is needed. Liquid is so pre HFT-ish ) and so thin and, maybe more or less is ..OK.

I'd love a stateless, private money. More for the debilitation and stress it would put on all ruler governments.
If Bicoin is legit, great. If not, fine.
The desire by billions to escape the machinations and legal theft of official money, that continues. Someone, somewhere will break through the ancient evil fortress of state and money.
Money is too important to be left in government hands.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:00 | 4419753 derek_vineyard
derek_vineyard's picture

people that make a killing in any market keep their mouth shut and enjoy their gains.  those who are vulnerable, rah-rah their investment hoping it will get out of the red.

fone--how much did you buy at $1200 ?  

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:05 | 4419781 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar doesn't really keep track.

fonestar always buys more BTC.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:00 | 4420136 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Fonestar just contradicted his 3rd person obnoxious dickwad self. 

1) You told us last year that you sold some at $200, and

2) you said you sold them to pay some bills.

Ergo a) you are a fucking liar, and b) you don't have a pot to piss in

Nevermind that you claimed in a separate post a few months later that you bought at $800.  Are we supposed to believe someone who lacked the same courage in his convictions that he wants everyone else to have?  Are we supposed to believe a liar?  Are we supposed to believe an obnoxious prick?  Are we supposed to accept financial advice from a fraud who ADMITTED herein that he took a 1600% annualized loss?  Where do we get in line for a deal like that?

Your supporters are the ones who need to hit themselves in the head with a hammer (and yes, Mosely, that was a direct jab at you, but there are plenty of others and you all know who you are)

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:03 | 4419959 Scoobywan
Scoobywan's picture

Don't mention this again.....

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:21 | 4420021 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Are we talking about gold or bitcoin here?

They are so similar, it's hard to tell the difference.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:59 | 4419757 Sixdeuce062
Sixdeuce062's picture

in what argentinain pesos yeah i will beleive that because all those zeros will be meaningless or maybe you meant it will take 3,4,5 figure worth of bitcoins to buy stuff 10k BTC for a hot dog any one?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:27 | 4419851 funthea
funthea's picture

Humans are funny like that... they will "substitute" if price is perceived as a barrier to  entry. In particular, if a "substitute" is indistinguishable from the former in every way other than name. Be careful fonstar. Don't let dreams of grandeur cloud your judgment. Bitcoin would do well to have a lower price in favor of stability, rather than to the moon and volatile. $50,000 bitcoin is just as illogical as $50,000 gold. This sage advice is only invalidated by a hyper-inflationary event. But in such an event, it is the dollar denomination that is changing and not the valuation of Bitcoin or Gold.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:00 | 4419762 fonestar
fonestar's picture

80%?  ROFL!!

Nice try again!!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:03 | 4419772 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

@fonestar - "But Bitcoin can "crash" again before payday that would be great!"

You know dude, we all know that you are a BTC wonk. A day hardly goes by when you aren't posting something about it. But what that statement validates for me is why I have no interest in the damned thing. The common person, not you of course, doesn't want to wait for their "currency" to crash before payday so they can get more. The average Joe and Josephine, you know, the gal who pours your coffee at the diner and the guy who puts your car on the rack to change the oil doesn't want their "currency" to be volatile from day to day. They want to feed their children, pay the mortgage or rent, eek out a living. They can't afford to have their "currency" crash and diminish their already piss poor purchasing power. BTC is concentrated into the hands of a few people that have massive computing power. I'm guessing that 90% of BTC's market cap is in the hands of less than a thousand people (and the FBI of course). How the hell can the average person compete with that? I certainly believe that legal tender laws should be repealed and the Federal Reserve abolished. I couldn't care less if people use African trade beads or gold or silver or Pokemon cards as money. The average person however wants something stable, less speculative and easily convertible. BTC doesn't qualify in any way, shape or form. It is a pure speculation play.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:06 | 4419777 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Nobody cares about what Joe & Jane think (or the rest of you for that matter).  Fuck 'em.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:20 | 4420198 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

Based on the number of down arrows I'd beg to differ. But hey, keep on stacking BTC pal. When there's a million crypto currencies out there and yours goes to zero like the USD then you'll be just another commoner like Joe & Jane wondering where your next meal is coming from.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 13:27 | 4420230 chemystical
chemystical's picture

There ya go genius.  You've posted worse before* on the same topic, but in essence you just said that you don't care what the average Joe thinks about a concept whose utility and sustainability depends on widespread acceptance.

Does it take an effort or are you truly this fucking stoopid?

* you said that you hoped everyone sold them so that you could buy them.   and the conclusion there is a fat piece of shit in his parents' basement owning 100% of something that has value only to him.   At least you'll have room for them and won't need to jettison the beanie babie and franklin mint collections

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 14:11 | 4420362 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture, BTC is viable as a currency even one likes it or uses it?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:12 | 4419804 tmosley
tmosley's picture

That's fine.  Those guys will be the late adopters who will lose a lot as they drive the price past its equilibrium full adoption price into a crack up boom.  After that crack up boom, price will settle, everyone will be in, and that will be that.

You have a choice between bitcoins and dollars.  Your savings should already be in PMs.  You don't put your savings into btc.  It shouldn't be more than 10% of your portfolio, as it is a blend between a non-dilutable currency and a speculative investment.

And in any event, there have been exchange fuck ups on gold, both flash crashes and flash smashes.  But that shouldn't matter to real PM investors, since they have their PMs in hand.  Bitcoiners are much the same.  The vast majority of bitcoins are not on the exchange, but are rather in deep storage, where it can't be touched.

Also, what do you care if a bunch of crypto anarchists have a bunch of money?  We all trust gold, and a huge portion of that is in the hands of a tiny cabal of central bankers.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:21 | 4419836 OceanX
OceanX's picture

Evidently,  the average person prefers a slow, steady eroision to their currency.  The USD lost 92% of it's purchasing power since 1913 (Year the FED was created)


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:31 | 4419870 aerojet
aerojet's picture

No, the average person is desperate for a store of value, period.  The slow erosion is still far better than a fast erosion.  No erosion would be best, of course.  But the system is rigged.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:24 | 4420025 tmosley
tmosley's picture

For someone crying about a rigged system, you sure seem to hate competing ones.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:55 | 4420129 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

Like litecoin, namecoin, dogecoin, oh, and gold.  Which, oddly enough, is rising.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:29 | 4419866 aerojet
aerojet's picture

He's a paid shill, it has become quite evident.  The message forums are full of these sorts of people and it is sometimes subtle (not in fonestar's case).  It's how marketing is done in social media.  It's disgusting, disreputable, and yet completely predictable.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:27 | 4420041 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I know, sort of like Marie Antoinette paid people to run around telling everyone about the wonders of her invention, the guillotine.

What is wrong with you that you think tptb would create a way to bypass themselves?  Why do you still think that that is what they are doing when governments around the world are cracking down on it?  Why the FUCK are you siding with governments against free trade between people?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 12:35 | 4420075 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Learning Difficulty. Wing-Nut.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:05 | 4419773 fonestar
fonestar's picture

How would the NSA know which addresses correspond to which person?


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 15:18 | 4420605 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

@GetZeeGold: "So I get this letter from the NSA..."

According to Lt. Uhura, this is how the NSA listens in...

BREWSTER RADIO DISH COMPLEX: Perched on a bluff above the Okanogan River is the largest array of satellite communication dishes in the Western Hemisphere: 40 of them owned by Verestar. The dishes carry trans-Pacific communication and track satellites. About 110 miles to the south, motorists on Interstate 82 can spot the National Security Agency spy satellite dishes at the Yakima Firing Range near Selah. The location is no coincidence: NSA is there to listen in on the Brewster commercial complex. The same arrangement of commercial dish farm and NSA eavesdropping next door exists in West Virginia for East Coast communications.

I'd tell you more, but then I'd have to kill you.

Kirk out.

p.s. / I know that real info is not as highly rated on ZH as is a funny line, but I hope this is useful to the ZH subset who prefer Stuff over Fluff.  /sarc

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:52 | 4419556 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

Is it a design issue in Bitcoin to allow slight changes in the transactions? Yes, probably is. But it’s not entirely clear how it can be prevented at all. An immediate fix would disallow potentially useful more complex transactions and require a global network consensus to enforce new behavior.

MtGox had this problem because they didn’t know about this Bitcoin property. And for most of the time transactions were not deliberately modified by anyone, so it was okay for most of the time.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:58 | 4419569 Stackers
Stackers's picture

This is not a flaw. One of the vast untapped aspects of BTC Is that you can add additional info to the BTC transaction. Obviously MtGox's software was not designed properly to handle this. This is an exchange software bug, not a BTC bug

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:51 | 4419724 tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

And how long can you operate a railroad in the absence of a functioning roundhouse?

That said, I'm bullish at $20 solely on convenience yield. "We can rebuild him" or in the case of Winkelvii, there's a replacement model. Furthermore I don't trust Ashby's law any more than I trust a broken-legged palindrome, but it sure beats watching cable since deposition smackdowns will not be televised and malleability doesn't apply to lawyer's spectacles.

First mover advantage is often diminished by the natives (read: hackers) as exhibited by Jamestown settlement in Virginia.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:52 | 4419726 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Who gives a big fat deuce?  Any currency that blows up because another layer of software is poop is only poop itself.  Solar flare?  NObtc.  EMP?  NObtc.  DNSHacks?  NObtc.  A billion other things that could go wrong?  NObtc.

Speculate in btc all day if you want.  Just don"t call it an investment.  Gold, silver, and sex will always be there.  Those are real and they always have been and always will be valuable.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:59 | 4419575 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

The problem is with Gox's own customised wallet software and not the bitcoin protocol itself. An exploit has been discovered in their wallet software , not the bitcoin protocol. Their software was attempting to doube-spend , and it was being rejected by the network , this is a cheap shot by Gox and the truth will out soon.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:59 | 4419581 malikai
malikai's picture

I'd put my chips on Gox being the first to notice it being exploited in the wild.

But I doubt we'll ever know for sure. Once it gets fixed, it'll be forgotten as quickly as this yet-another-flash-crash.

Shame, sadly I didn't get a chance to pick up any of those $100 coins.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:38 | 4419680 licutis
licutis's picture

The bug allows the receiver of coins to change the transaction ID and still receive them (to/from/time/amount are unchanged). If Gox used the normal bitcoin client this would be detected as it checks for amount spent, to/from addresses, and time stamp to verify not just the transaction id. In this attack the person withdrawing coins makes a withdrawal, modifies the transaction id, gets coins, tells Gox they didn't, Gox doesn't do due diligence on the request and blindly resends after seeing the transaction with the trans id they have in their books failed. 

Gox can fix by:

1. doing proper due diligence on requests to resend a withdrawal 

2. updating to modern bitcoin software (they use old, out of date, poorly implemented software that creates the situation for this to happen in the first place.

3. hold the bitcoin community hostage until they become irrelevant or a fix for a non serious bug is released. 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 09:55 | 4419563 nomofiat
nomofiat's picture


you can only count on gox when it comes to blameshifitng

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 10:14 | 4419608 malikai
malikai's picture

Very interesting.

Time to review some code..

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:07 | 4419786 fonestar
fonestar's picture

The best thing Gox could do is just go away, but thanks for the dip!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 11:14 | 4419808 El Tuco
El Tuco's picture


One needs to only scratch the surface of anything the Tylers post these days to realize the heavy spin they use. This site is just as guilty as the MSM of disinformation. I would be careful what one takes away from all this, It can hurt your pocket.

It was never about the posts here but the comments. It was typically a great place to find some real gems in the comments section. Now it's just banter  and bull shit most of the time.


Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!