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Saxo Bank CEO: Bitcoin Faces Serious Challenges (Needs Link To Real Assets)

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Authored by Lars Seier Christenson, CEO Saxo Bank; via his TradingFloor.com blog,

When I saw Bitcoin trading at close to one thousand dollars, I wanted to kick myself! I should have seen it coming, a limited supply and a lot of hype and demand — it looks obvious in hindsight, as many things do.

And I can't excuse myself by claiming not to have been fully aware of Bitcoin, when it was trading far below ten dollars. My well-known libertarian leanings meant that a number of like-minded friends encouraged me to get involved in this new, non-statist, unregulated experiment. Shame on me, for not listening. I hope at least they made a lot of money.

The main reason, however, I did not get involved was longer-term concerns about the viability of Bitcoin, and in my view, those concerns still remain.

Bitcoin has been in the news a lot lately — and not all of it positive, such as the recent arrest of a Bitcoin trader in New York on money laundering charges.

I think Bitcoin has made a mistake by keeping its owners anonymous, although some users — including some highly undesirable ones — are embracing it for that very reason. This offers authorities an excellent excuse to ban it whenever, and wherever they wish. And this could easily be an unfair ban under false pretences simply because the authorities don't like the competition. China and Russia are just the first to react, I fear.

Due to the nature of its structure, banning Bitcoin will of course not eradicate it. But what it will do is make it impossible for law-abiding individuals and businesses to use it — and thereby render it practically useless anyway. So the false sense of security the, admittedly, irrepressible network provides Bitcoin will really not count for much, if there is a concerted move to restrict the Bitcoin market. I think therefore that it may well be advisable to accept and embrace some degree of regulation, although it will be counter-intuitive to many fans, if only to prevent an even worse reaction from governments that are not pleased to see their money printing monopoly challenged.

Of course, for early buyers wiser than me, the huge price rally has been terrific, but it also carries some negative consequences. I  think the elevated price and huge volatility — it has swung from a high of USD 1,242 in late November to around USD 500 in hours — will make it more difficult to gain acceptance among serious businesses.

So I think Bitcoin will face serious challenges in the long run, although I believe such digital currencies could have a place in the economy in more well thought-through structures with values better linked to real assets. There is no doubt that many central banks have made a mess of things with their own fiat money without linkage to reality, and it is entirely conceivable that the private sector could also in the area of currencies do a better job than public sector institutions. It does in pretty much every other area under the sun, so why not here?

Anything in the financial space that can be regulated will be regulated. Get used to it! This will also apply to digital currencies. But regulation could be their ticket to real acceptance and success — and should therefore not be seen only as a negative.

Bitcoin is still a very small part of the economic system and will not pose a serious threat to more established models any time soon. But if it does one day and it overcomes regulatory issues, it will be embraced.

Bitcoin is increasingly used by migrant workers to transfer money back home, and is therefore beginning to serve really genuine purposes, not just ideological ones, which is promising to see.

The extreme volatility and opaque ownership structure definitely poses a risk to all users of Bitcoin. And I believe there will be new and better models developing over time. It is rare that the first mover wins and takes all, and given the weaknesses mentioned above, I believe there is a lot of room for improvements.

There are at least 80 known similar initiatives out there, and of course most of them will fail. But I know personally of a couple of projects in the design phase that in my view are better constructions, and will be able to obtain rapid distribution, making them real competitors to Bitcoin. When they launch, I promise myself that I will be less cautious and also that readers of this blog will get to know about it at an early stage, so watch this space!

Saxo Bank does not currently offer trading in Bitcoin due to the concerns listed here. But we are reviewing the digital currency space on an ongoing basis, so we may revise this at a later stage.

 

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Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:55 | 4421258 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

How about Fonestar's '06 Ford Taurus?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:55 | 4421273 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It was a Focus and an '05 actually.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 17:58 | 4421285 fonestar
fonestar's picture

And this guy doesn't have a clue about Bitcoin if he thinks cryptocurrencies need to be linked to "real assets".  Perhaps he should sit in his office meditating upon the meaning of "counterparty risk"?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:02 | 4421313 fonestar
fonestar's picture

All you need to know is that Bitcoin is the superior product and all of you should be buying Bitcoin at any price.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:10 | 4421353 max2205
max2205's picture

Bid $0 ask $0

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:15 | 4421376 A L I E N
A L I E N's picture

He doesn't have a clue about bitcoin if he thinks it keeps its owners anonymous...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:17 | 4421396 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Anonymity is a personal choice, not a technical feature.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:44 | 4421506 Four chan
Four chan's picture

in before schiff's victory lap video.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:45 | 4421517 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Schiff doesn't get Bitcoin.

fonestar gets Bitcoin.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:48 | 4421530 akak
akak's picture

 

fonestar gets Bitcoin.

Yeah, right up the ass.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:51 | 4421536 fonestar
fonestar's picture

I would inject the shit into my eyes.

fonestar loves the feeling Bitcoin gives.

Wed, 02/12/2014 - 14:20 | 4428721 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

"And this guy doesn't have a clue about Bitcoin if he thinks cryptocurrencies need to be linked to "real assets". "

The what, pray tell, gives Bitcoin it's value"

Talk about "not getting it!"


Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:50 | 4421808 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar is offering free 0.025 BTC reward for first address and heil Satoshi under this post!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:01 | 4421848 logicalman
logicalman's picture

I find it truly odd that you refer to yourself in the third person.

The word 'heil' is a bit worrying too.

 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:02 | 4421852 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar is managed by a PAL.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 22:28 | 4422391 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

PAL - Personal Ass Licker?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 22:45 | 4422472 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It is a Physical Abstraction Layer you fool.

In a few short years it will be the virtual persona controlling the PAL though.

 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 23:44 | 4422672 akak
akak's picture

I don't have the slightest clue what the fuck you are talking about, but it's still an automatic downarrow for me.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 23:54 | 4422697 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I appreciate your reptillian brain's desire to smash that which you do not understand, but perhaps you ought to try for (literally) five minutes to understand what he is talking about before forming an opinion one way or the other?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction_layer

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 00:01 | 4422710 akak
akak's picture

If I spent five minutes of my life on wikipedia looking up every damned little thing that somebody else insisted I look up, I would spend the next 5000 years sitting here looking at Wikipedia.

By the way, I have been meaning to ask you tmosely: when are you going to change your handle here to "Trav777.2" and be done with it already?

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 03:33 | 4423044 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Basics of Bitcoin 3 minute video narrated in a fuddy duddy limey accent.  Saves 2 minutes of your precious life.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 23:57 | 4422708 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Fool?  I'm not the one invested in Bitchcoin.  I believe it continually seeks a greater one.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:20 | 4421904 fonestar
fonestar's picture

No takers? 

fonestar is offering real, honest money here folks!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:53 | 4422033 fonestar
fonestar's picture

WITHDRAWN DUE TO LACK OF INTEREST FROM OLD FOGIES ON ZEROHEDGE

(Would have been gone 5sec on Reddit)

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:55 | 4422041 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

I guess the old fogies are a little too smart for your silly games.

 

Stack On

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:59 | 4422058 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yeah, can't teach a blind, deaf and dumb dog new tricks I guess.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:39 | 4422184 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

Aye, especially when that dog is a very young pup still on the teat.

 

Stack On

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:06 | 4422072 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...old fogies didn't cause BitCoin to flash crash today.

Your heavilly encrypted, nothing-can-go-wrong-until-someone-trips-over-the-plug-in-the-wall did that all by itself ;-)

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:52 | 4422243 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Nice try, more FUD.  It was caused by an outdone exchange thats lived past its day.

BTC is currently $685 USD on BTC-e, right where it was the night before this tragic, terrible, devestating crash.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:11 | 4422091 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Heil Satoshi!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:36 | 4422173 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Thanks for playing Fred but we needed an address too!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:27 | 4422138 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Since no-one else is stepping up:

Heil Satoshi!

14h4nnMoFnQ2ZnqJrfGyka19mhR3o3wwQi

I'll donate it to ZH if and when they post a bitcoin address.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:35 | 4422169 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Contgrats to Tmosley!  Here at Fonestar LLC we appreciate your fanaticism towards Satoshi conciousness and total Bitcoin adoption!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 22:45 | 4422470 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Much appreciated, fonestar.

Will hold until ZH posts a donation address, though it they take too long, I may give it to the Center for Applied Rationality or the Machine Intelligence Research Institute.

Honestly, what does it hurt to get an address?  There are plenty of bitcoin millionaires out there, and my experience has been that they are extraordinarily generous.  Everyone with an internet presense should have one.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 22:49 | 4422485 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Zerohedge doesn't want to "stir the pot" so to speak by posting a Bitcoin address, so they can use a dipstick like fonestar to do it for them.

Wed, 02/12/2014 - 15:19 | 4428957 unconscious_com...
unconscious_competent's picture

Heil Satoshi!

139wP88teX8KkwRT4Z1svhc4dmduDc2i8z

 

I know I'm late to the punch but there was a waiting period for ZH to confirm my account. I've been lurking here in the comments of ZH for some time now, debating with myself over wether or not to register an account and this offer was the comment that pushed me over that edge. Pleased to be here.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:51 | 4421543 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Yes, goyim, be sure to link your distributed cryptocurrency to a central location so it can be regulated by the elite.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:58 | 4421570 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Pretty funny listening to bankers pontificate on how we could make Bitcoin better isn't it?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:40 | 4421771 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

Yes, goyim

dats rayciss

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:29 | 4422148 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Yes goy.  It is completely racist to use words that communicate our true intent towards the goyim.

It's also racist for non Hebrews to read the Talmud.

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 09:44 | 4423450 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

Please please drop the racism.

All faiths have extremist views , thankfully these are minority , marginal views . Some muslims think non muslims are infidels , some Christians think non Cristians are blasphemous , you cannot apply a minority viewpoint and smear that across an entire race or religion.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:15 | 4421379 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

Well then... fonestar... Since you INSIST to obfuscate... I'll make it EASY [for the others]...

~~~

FIRST LINK

How many BITCOINS do you pay to mail a letter?... Like... .0005714? (=.40 cents/$700 ~ Feb '14)... .0004571? (=.32 cents/$700 ~ whenever/assuming)... .0004? (=.40 cents/$1000 ~ Dec '13)... .002666 (= .40 cents/$150 ~ Oct '13)... .04 (=$10/.40 cents ~ Jan '13)

You should have singularly REVIVED this service by now... STABILITY BITCHEZ!

~~~

I'm not interested in 'Joos' ~ [as you invite, above]... Instead ~ I'm interested in a reasonable dialogue with regards to BITCOIN [viability]...

Whereby...

You FAILED to follow up on my inquiries HERE:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-10/china-orders-its-smaller-banks-...

~~~

2ND LINK

Speaking of 'typical poster' here... [& since you're the resident scribe]

~~~

Do me a favor?

Please give us an [UP TO DATE] accounting of "all the bitcoins mined thus far"...

For someone like yourself ~ A number like this should, EASILY, be at the top of your head [so I trust that is not a PROBLEMATIC request]...

The purpose of my inquiry is that I'd like to make a 'ball park' estimation as to the ENTIRE 'notional' value of the BITCOIN market [which could easily be determined by the aggregate number of MINED bitcoins TIMES their VALUE on exchanges]... I'm thinking that, from you, this information would be WILLINGLY FORTHCOMING [in that ~ it is undoubtedly your determined goal to PROVE that BITCOIN is 'where it's at' for the future]...

I anxiously await...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:17 | 4421398 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

actually he does have a good point about counter party risk.

I mean "but Prince Humperdink is a fine and upstanding gentleman!"

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:47 | 4421526 BTCTalks
BTCTalks's picture

Blockchain.info should provide all of the stats you are looking for. The total mkt cap for BTC currently is about $10bln.

Additionally, factoring in the crash from last night caused by MF Gox (this is only going to get uglier, btw) BTC closed on Friday at $692 and today at $670. Resilience does not a click-bait headline make.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:50 | 4421534 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar will be picking up cheap coins while the doomers proclaim the "end of Bitcoin" (part 12).

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:01 | 4421589 fonestar
fonestar's picture

"The End of Bitcoin"..... kind of like Police Academy!  The laughs just keep coming!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:04 | 4421606 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

The "laughs" initiate with your FAILURE to respond to either of my <above ^^^> inquiries...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:11 | 4421638 fonestar
fonestar's picture

They've been addressed several times before by myself and others.

fonestar has pretty much thought of everything.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:24 | 4421716 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

I LOVE THIS: "Bitcoin needs a link to real assets" Um you mean like the Dollar, Euro, and Yen?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:26 | 4421724 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Hello HAL!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:07 | 4421859 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

The USD is linked to a global asset:  oil.  

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:37 | 4421971 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Yes, it is indeed linked. Why is that almost no one here really gets it...

The oil is what has value, being able to buy it with a given MOE or currency is what gives the MOE or currency value...

BTW, the true measure of the value of gold is how much oil you can buy with it, not how many dollars....

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:12 | 4421648 Onthebeach
Onthebeach's picture

Fonestar, triumphantly brandishing his invisible and very cheap bitcoin, overbalances …. and plunges into the molten heart of Mt. Gox …. Shrieking “Noooo !! ………….. My Precious! …………. My Precious!!”

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:58 | 4421571 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

10 billion...that's it?

There is more money between couch cushions in America alone. Considering the high visibility/marketing of BC, it seems pretty weak.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:15 | 4421671 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, Bitcoin is small peanuts now.  Which is why fonestar laughs mockingly at those who say Bitcoin is a bubble at $1200/BTC.  Bitcoin still will not be a bubble at $1 million/BTC.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:21 | 4421680 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

The "laughs" initiate with your FAILURE to respond to either of my <above ^^^> inquiries...

~~~

& whereby @BTCTalks

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-10/china-orders-its-smaller-banks-...

...& whereby the REPLY [of fonestar] was:

~~~REPLY~~~

There's over 12.25 million BTC mined so far and no way of telling how many have been lost forever (I expect a very large percentage based upon my own experience dealing with end users).

All of this information is easily available.

http://blockchain.info/charts

 

~~~END REPLY~~~

& my subsequent demand was:

 

"There [are] "over 12.25 million BTC..."Assuming you're using PLURAL [syntax/punctuation]"...

~~~

 

Notwithstanding ~ & 'ok then'

Would you agree with me [more or less], then, that IN THIS MOMENT, the net 'notional' value of all the BTC's in existence [inert &/or fluid] is:

Formula: $680 [hell ~ I'll give you the benefit of the doubt & say $700 X 12.5 million] = 9 billion ~ 750 million USD?

...& forget about this for a moment while you contemplate your answer... I'm simply interested in AGGREGATES...

~~~

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2096060/bitcoin-price-plunges-as-mt-gox-s...

~~~END REPLY~~~


Of course... to ANYONE who supercedes the number of 'mouse clicks' necessary to harvest that DATA, this would be rhetoric...

But ALAS... We live in a 'fonestar' world... [in which there is ZERO memory, & ZERO thought process]... & where the NEXT smell of the next crap is all that matters...

 

~~~

@BlackChicken

 

 

Based on 'fonestars' own numbers, I GENEROUSLY gave it $10 billion...

 

IOW ~ less than a week & a half of central bank 'money printing' to SEND THE ENTIRE MARKET TO HELL...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:19 | 4421694 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

Well, that seems a little far from here in value, acceptance, and reality; however dreams do have value.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:23 | 4421712 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

...for a FEW HOURS [of money printing]... at least... &, I presume...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:47 | 4421805 the 300000000th...
the 300000000th percent's picture

Funny how a banker is claiming something needs to be tied to something real. EVERYTHING THESE BANKING FUCKS DEAL IN IS SO FAR FROM REALITY how about our stock exchange?? or the S and P?? or the price of gold?? or the dollar?? Priceless. And all these nay sayers on here are siding with the banker. Am I on zerohedge or CNBC?????? WTF

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:54 | 4421819 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, now they get all teary-eyed and religious that Bitcoin is here lol...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:10 | 4421365 Sofa King Confused
Sofa King Confused's picture

Bitcoin needs to be linked to real assets like the US Dollar is linked to real assets such as ...........??

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:38 | 4421763 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

unfortunately, but truly,  Abrams tanks, F22s, and Predator drones.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:45 | 4421786 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

The tidal waves of printed/materialized money will eventually overcome the ability to buy / produce war toys because the materialized money is truly an infinite resource.

The stuff required to blow up other stuff is finite.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:20 | 4421905 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

Odd that.  Hitler somehow managed.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:03 | 4421854 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

That's why bank runs can never happen. LOL

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:11 | 4421371 Au_Ag_CuPbCu
Au_Ag_CuPbCu's picture

“All you need to know…blah blah blah”  WOW!  Gee you finally convinced me.  Where do I sign up?  /sarc

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:12 | 4421378 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

I agree.

Having real and tangible assets are so yesterday; the real future lies within a global digital-currency that must have an Internet connection to make a transaction.

With our modern and stable cripto-currencies, we will forever conquer the most powerful people on the planet without them being able to do a damn thing about it ever.

Que the rainbow/skittle shitting unicorn...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:20 | 4421403 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Who needs things that are "real" and "tangible"?  Some stupid ape?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:30 | 4421450 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

Real people exchanging value with other real people, people not wanting to trust and depend upon an electronic format, and those seeking to prove value upon exchange in real time.

Come on man, you simply MUST have a better comeback than that!

A real coin in the hand is worth two bits in the cyber-bush.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:32 | 4421463 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bits are money, everything else is bullshit.

                                               ~JBit Borgan

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:37 | 4421480 akak
akak's picture

Bots are foneystar, everything he says is bullshit.

~akak

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:44 | 4421500 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

That was beneath your ability to add a meaningful reply, and did not even address my point. A digital bit is not even close to a tangible asset, it is a fantasy waiting for the next exchange based on pure hope and a good connection.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:44 | 4421511 fonestar
fonestar's picture

If you have millions of bits, that make up bytes that are then encapsulated into a packet that tells you where you can steal one million ounces of gold.... what is more valuable?  Those bits or one single gold coin?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:54 | 4421551 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

The single gold coin; the real thing actually in my hand, not a fantasy contingent upon possibly dozens to hundreds of steps to make happen.

Then under your scenario, you still need to steal it (good luck with that). There are some knuckle staggers like me that just want honest, in person, exchange without all the fuss/effort.

Try again, at least that one took some creativity..,

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:54 | 4421563 fonestar
fonestar's picture

In that case you're a bonehead.  Any intelligent person would have realized the intel was worth far more.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:44 | 4421604 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

You just ran out of ammo with resorting to name calling. However I am tapping onto the intellect of my dog by petting it as I type just to keep up with you.

The intel you fantasize about has no value until proven. My single coin still exists, is real, and in my hand. You're just adding layers to a fantasy.

Try again using your mind not your weakness and frustration.

Edited: your exchange with Nidstyles below is classic; you evade the premise while changing gears to off topic fantasy.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:16 | 4421897 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

And that business about real, tangible things being meaningless is just absurd. You eat real, tangible food. You sleep in a real, tangible bed. Any currency, including your beloved bitcoin, is just a store a value that can be exchanged for a real, tangible good.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:09 | 4421869 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Bitcoin is currency - NOT MONEY.

Currency and money are not the same thing.

That comment kills any credibility you may think you have.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:45 | 4422196 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Actually, you are quite wrong.

"Money" is defined as anything that embodies at least one, and preferably (but not necessarily) all three of the following characteristics:

1) store of value
2) medium of exchange (aka "currency"
3) unit of account

Gold, dollars, and BitCoin can all be considered "money".

It is worth noting that nothing currently in use fulfills all three of these characteristics. Dollars are the closest, but as we know, they are a poor store of value.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:33 | 4421456 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Nope, just the guy you will end up wanting to trade for food will want something tangible...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:35 | 4421473 fonestar
fonestar's picture

You'll buy the farm for a couple damn Satoshi and Old MacDonald won't have shit to say about it.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:44 | 4421509 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I'm the guy that owns the farm right now. I would tell you to kiss my ass.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:47 | 4421527 fonestar
fonestar's picture

You will be forced to accept my voluntary currency.  In the exact same empty-headed manner you did paper dollars.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:54 | 4421550 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

No, more likely I will shoot you in the face and tell your followers to go kick rocks.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:53 | 4421558 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Your fantasies are almost as stupid as you.... almost.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:00 | 4421585 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Except in the scenario that is described where you would be threatening me to conform or suffer I think I am justified in killing you and preventing you from getting any bright ideas.

 

In that scanario the USG doesn't really exist anymore. That means you bitch ass little punks will have to deal with real people face to face and actually have to work for a living. Which is why if you told me that I had to take worthless pieces of papers with numbers on them, I would shoot you in the face before you got any bright ideas.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:03 | 4421602 fonestar
fonestar's picture

While we're off in Bronson's fantasy land what makes you think the Bitcoiners won't have guns and trade you lead for your wheat and grain?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:12 | 4421642 akak
akak's picture

 

what makes you think the Bitcoiners won't have guns and trade you lead for your wheat and grain?

Behold the true and underlying spirit of the Bitcoiners!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:14 | 4421666 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It's the whole something for nothing crowd. I swear we used to have those guys here before, but they were going by different names.

History echoing again...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:21 | 4421701 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Money for nothing and your bits for free.

fonestar will be on easy street.  Thanks for the produce slavetards!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:25 | 4421720 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

So Tylers I think I can speak for a large number of other members when I ask if we can ban this asshole.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:29 | 4421740 fonestar
fonestar's picture

So Tylers I think I can speak for a large number of other members when I ask if we can ban this asshole.

What's a matter?  Can't handle fonestar's advanced RSBT? 

fonestar knows how to bring in the clicks and that's a whole other type of currency ya know?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:41 | 4421983 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

I agree, you are a top quality shill fonestar. It would be a shame to see you go, I visit everyday to learn as much wisdom as you have to offer.

 

Stack On

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 13:06 | 4424102 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

Why ban free entertainment. Foneystar is good for laughs, if nothing else.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:24 | 4421921 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

The only way the bitcoiners could force a farmer to sell his farm for bitcoins would be with the backing of government force, but the only way that happens is if the government controlled and/or regulated bitcoins which seems to defeat the whole purpose.

Do you know what the most powerful word in the world is, Fonestar? It's "No".

Fonestar: Give me your farm for 1 satoshi

Farmer: No

Fonestar: (sputter) But, but it's a technology with a protocol. You have to.

Farmer: No

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:41 | 4422183 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Funny, some in the family, whose preps involve guns and ammo exclusively, to the point of threatening violence when you question why they don't stock some food, water, dollars, and PMs, say much the same thing about gold.

Reminds me of Spangle, by my favorite author, Gary Jennings.  Shortly after the end of the civil war, the main characters come across an old lady who refuses to accept that the south has lost, and gives goods for Confederate dollars at face value, and refuses to accept Union dollars.

You can refuse payment in the money the market has chosen for only so long.  Once you are out of pre-stocked goods, you are left with nothing because you refused to adapt.

"No." is far from the most powerful word.  He can just move on to your next door neighbor and buy them out for the same.  You can stubbornly refuse to accept the future, even when it becomes the present, but that doesn't mean that you "win".  You just gave up on trade, like the hillbillies from Atlas Shrugged who didn't know what a dollar was, and weren't interested in them.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:15 | 4421652 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

What makes you think I want to do trade with another money changer? You may not be as bad as the banks, but you are certainly close to behaving like a damn banker.

I would rather shoot you in the face and stop any sort of misery before it starts. Once a shyster always a shyster.

 

Oh to add, I am surrounded by Veterans and Mormons. Good luck trying to attack their farmer friend. Not only would you get mowed down trying to take something, but you wouldn't be able to escape without the neighbors getting you.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:16 | 4421679 fonestar
fonestar's picture

What you want will have nothing to do with the matter.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:26 | 4421714 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Of course not, I would rather live in peace than have an asshole that runs around telling people what to do.

You want to behave like a barbaric animal then I will treat you like one. I spent enough time on the pointy end of that stick to know how to handle myself.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:43 | 4422191 tmosley
tmosley's picture

"I'd like to buy your farm, here's a bitcoin, worth ~$1 million in 2014 dollars".

"YOU BARBARIAN IMMA KILL YOU."

You will understand why you need money when the taxman and his thugs come around.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:44 | 4421792 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

Except in the scenario that is described where you would be threatening me to conform or suffer I think I am justified in killing you and preventing you from getting any bright ideas.

 

That's some seriously extraordinary circumstances there. Especially that last bit.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:02 | 4421586 Grosvenor Pkwy
Grosvenor Pkwy's picture

"buy the farm for a couple damn Satoshi"

True. When Bitcoin reaches $10 million/BTC, fonestar will be tooling around in his fleet of Lear Jets, randomly dropping bombs on his ZH critics, who will be reduced to begging for a cup of rice to ward off starvation for one more day. The ZH critics will regret all the mean things they said about Bitcoin, but by then it will be too late.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:08 | 4421632 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

Awsome...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 22:57 | 4422523 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

The nice thing is, enough gold will stop a bullet.  How many bitcons does it take to stop a bullet?  Gold or bitcoins, whatever.  Bullets.  Bullets worth more in the long run.  Bullets can be used to take gold or bitcoins.  Like I said, at least gold might give you a 2nd chance. 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:20 | 4421406 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture

"All you need to know is that Bitcoin is the superior product and all of you should be buying Bitcoin at any price."

 

Until you get out of cell tower range....  LOL!!!

 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:24 | 4421417 fonestar
fonestar's picture

How would cell tower range effect it?  Paper wallets + anti-counterfeiting technology.  Sneaker net.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:32 | 4421462 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You honestly think someone will want to trade you for a fucking number written on a piece of paper?

You're dumber than I thought.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:36 | 4421476 fonestar
fonestar's picture

When they see how valuable it is you're damn right they'll want fonestar's numbers.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:43 | 4421503 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It isn't worth anything you dipshit.

The whole reason the price went up was because the over produced fiat currencies merely glanced at it. It's called the Wealth Effect. It's just another symptom of the current bubble that is being blown up all around us. This is the point that people have been trying to tell you but you're so invested in this idea that you can get rich quick and easy. It's not going to happen. The only way BTC goes up now is if people are fleeing the other assets or someone wants to pump and dump the thing.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:13 | 4421654 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

Hey NS. If I were to drop by the farm and offer you coins for your food/produce would you consider the exchange, even under harsh conditions?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:17 | 4421683 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

If they are real coins. The only other exchange I would do is labor for food. Bitcoins have no value to me in any scenario. They are incapable of being exchanged for anything I would want to buy. They are essentially useless to the majority of the 7+ Billion people on this planet that have never heard of them.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:31 | 4421739 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

Why try risking using fake coins? An honest man without anything would begin by asking to exchange food for his labor.

How long would it take to make a deal in real assets? Moments right? That's my whole point. BTW, I am surrounded by old fashioned people and tons of active and retired military. The con-man wont last long around either of our areas from what you wrote.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:32 | 4421749 fonestar
fonestar's picture

All coins not validated by the blockchain are fake coins.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:45 | 4422011 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

You contradict yourself yet again.

You have said on the past you own AU/AG right? So the coins you own are all fake, but the value you allegedly have in a block chain record, in a secret squirrel wallet of massively fluctuating value is the real deal right?

Wow. You're a sick little puppy.

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 00:11 | 4422753 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Your mindset is completely infantile. you "tell" people its a superior "product" and they should be buying "at any price".  Ridiculous drivel.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:03 | 4421306 Charles Nelson ...
Charles Nelson Reilly's picture

Petro-Bitcoin?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:05 | 4421324 Troll Magnet
Troll Magnet's picture

Who the hell needs real assets when you have FAITH and CONfidence?

 

 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:15 | 4421340 fonestar
fonestar's picture

There was no lack of faith and confidence by these nutty posters in the petro dollar during Reagan and Bush No.1.  What gives?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:25 | 4421422 fonestar
fonestar's picture

....ah!  Sorry, my bad.  That's when you fake libertarians were actually receiving proceeds from the crime.  Whoops!

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:36 | 4421469 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Fake Libertarians?

 

Have you even read Rothbard well enough to understand what the problem was with Bitcoin? It's obvious that you have not and that sort of makes you the Fake Libertarian. Libertarianism as it is known today comes from Rothbard.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:45 | 4421514 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

Murray Rothbard advocated Private Currencies / Monies which were down to the descretion of the individual users of said currency / money. Nobody is being forced to use bitcoin , it is not a fiat state - sanctioned currency. Rothbard definitely would have approved of bitcoin , being a private unit of currency freely traded by individuals choosing to use said currency. The same could be said of sea shells , gold coins or lumps of dried monkey shit if they decided to use it.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:48 | 4421531 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You should really go back and read some more. Rothbard advocated Private Currencies, but the Currencies he meant were based on a service or tangible good not make believe numbers on a piece of paper. Currencies are representatives of a real good.

What BTC is is directly counter to what he was advocating as BTC is infinitely divisiable and therefore not realistic or suitable for real use.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:58 | 4421574 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

Ahem , is gold not an infinitely divisible unit of money / currency ? , can you not split 1 ounce of gold to part's small enough to pay for a bowl of rice or a beer ?

That is a dumb as fuck answer you have just given.

bitcoin is , in the modern electronic age is a far superior type of private money / currency than you can imagine. Your dumbass argument above just shows you know fuck all about Rothbard or Private Money / Currency.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:07 | 4421622 lordylord
lordylord's picture

Bitcoin is at best a service.  It is not money.

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 03:04 | 4423017 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

If it walks like money and quacks like money, go ahead and call it a virtual tulip service.  Bitcoin doesn't care how it gets labeled in some highschool textbook. 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:10 | 4421625 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Gold is only infinitely divisible to the point that you can divide the present amount a certain numbers of times. That amount is not capable of growing exponentially. It requires the gold to actually be there and there is a limit as not all people will want to hold their gold virtually. 

 

Also if you had read Rothbard he also disagreed with having gold as any sort of standard. He also brought up currencies in general as being sidelined by the larger physical mediums, which is you examine history there has always been a physical mediums that were being used for exchange in functioning and normal economies.

 

My answer was not "dumb" in the least. I just do not post long ass descriptive posts that elaborate fully the intent and meaning behind the comments. That sort of makes you the "dumb" one for not understanding how limited this form of communication is, and assuming that you knew the remainder of my thoughts on the matter. In fact that sort of brings me to the other point. Libertarians are capable of having intelligent conversations that make sense. That is sort of a requirement for being a Libertarian. 

 

Unless your name is Fonestar, then it's obvious that you need to be ridiculed at every chance for portraying a negative light on libertarians.

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 05:44 | 4423163 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

Gold can be split down to individual atoms if necessary - and quite often is in the electronics industry where gold ion streams are generated to coat optics and semiconductors. You could split 1 kilo of gold into far more units than 21 million bitcoin units could currently be split down into. Your argument and theory is dumb-ass.

Rothbard advocated private currencies , which people are free to use and not forced to use , it was at their descretion what they freely choose to use. You sound like a fucking Central Banker you fucking hypocrite telling other people what they can and cannot use as a currency , it is their choice what they want to use , not yours , dumb-ass.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:05 | 4421614 lordylord
lordylord's picture

Being infinitley divisible is not a good argument to make againt bitcoin.  However, bitcoin was created out of thin air and can be duplicated and copied to infinity.  The mob is fickle and bitcoin may go out of style in favor of bitcoin 2.0 or bitcoin 3.0...I'd prefer something that can't be duplicated (e.g. gold).

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 02:33 | 4422990 JustUsChickensHere
JustUsChickensHere's picture

So the unit of account in favour at any moment may change.... if TPTB in the west had their way Gold would no longer be reconized as a unit of account (currency) ... Ohhh ... they managed to do that in the USA already!  .... not in the far east though.

Store of value ... same issue, the general public in the west no longer really has much concept of Gold as a store of value ... some, but not much. The far east ... true believers still. Central Banks ... true believers ... and 5000 years of social conditioning is unlikely to be overwhelmed by the current propaganda machine of the west.  SO ... Gold is likely to retain the mindset support of the mob.

Bitcoin ?? way less history, way less mindset support by the mob. That makes it much more vulnerable to bad propaganda .. and it will get lots of that.

The argument that Bitcoin can be easily duplicated is wrong... in this way.  Sure the code base (software) can be copied or revised to create variant systems... but not one of those alt-coins can ever have first mover advantage. That is Bitcoin's to lose if it stumbles. If it does not stumble, the network effect of the exponentially growing user base makes it unlikely to be unseated in the global currency role it addresses.

Other similar systems can and probably will be first movers in dealing with non-currency problem spaces. NameCoin for domain names, Etherium for contracts and legal documents, share registries, voting systems and even distributed exchanges and companies... (DAC's remove the issues that MtGox and other companies have with government interference)

So expect to see multiple 'coins' providing multiple 'honest ledgers' allowing business activity without the current frauds of TPTB.  And expect TPTB to vigorously try to stop those systems. They have a lot to lose. Expect TPTB to lie, slander, arrest people ... anything and everything will be used to try to suppress the new technology - honest ledgers (global in reach and truly transparent). 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:18 | 4421366 lordylord
lordylord's picture

I own a lot of real estate in the lost city of Atlantis which I am now selling.  Would you like to buy some?  There is a finite number of acres to purchase (which I decided upon randomly) so you better gets yours before the price sky rockets.  Guaranteed to increase in value!  

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:36 | 4421475 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Sort of like the dude that was selling real estate on the moon. Made a damn fortune doing it even though technically he owned none of it.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:44 | 4421499 lordylord
lordylord's picture

How much did Fonestar buy?

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:48 | 4421535 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

None, they didn't take BTC.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:49 | 4421498 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Bitcoin, Litecoin, and the other crypto currencies are already tied to real assets - Chinese tech. companies building the hardware - and utility companies.

Those selling ASIC processors, AMD Radeon high end cards, power supplies, motherboards, and electricity are very happy.

With the market for gaming PC rigs, Desktops, and Laptops declining - it was genius to create a crypto currency that required all the components and accessories of a PC in order to "create" it.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 20:33 | 4421959 logicalman
logicalman's picture

If all you need to mine BitCoin is computer power, let me just ask, who has the most computer power.

I'm sure that place i Utah is on the list.

Could be a problem for Joe Average, even if they do stop spying on everyone (not holding my breath on that one)

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:55 | 4422250 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Joe Average can forget mining for Bitcoin; he(she) is on to Litecoin mining.

Does it require hardware and lots of electricity?  Oh yeah. 

Just take a gander at these pics of rigs submitted:

http://bitcoinexaminer.org/20-awesome-litecoin-mining-rigs/

But yes, .gov could use taxpayer resources to cause trouble.

Tue, 02/11/2014 - 12:55 | 4424062 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

Yeah it's great. Prices on the high end AMD cards are going up and making Nvidia cards look like a much better value. I am sure Nvidia is loving it.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 19:03 | 4421600 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@fonestar

Yet another ZH herp-derp-blerping article from a Bank CEO that has vested interest in a "regulated" currency proposed by his good pals, the corrupted governments around the world.

He hits the usual "high" points, Volatility, his pining need for it to be regulated by his crony and paid-for "regulators", and a final jab at the "opaque ownership structure" - aka - "We really wish we knew who satoshi was, because then we could dig up some dirty laundry to fuck up his project."

Yeah, big surprise Mr. Banking CEO - of course you'd love "GovCoin 2.0" to spring forth and take the world by storm, but of course he's forgetting something quite important - the reason people are interested in using Bitcoin is to shelter themselves from banking fuckrags like himself.

The best laugh comes from his admission that central banks can "do better" -- No shit, sherlock, you and all of your crony fuckbag compatriots are singlehandedly responsible for every wave of impoverishment around the globe.

So Mr. Banking CEO - take your initiatives and starry-eyed plans and shove them UP YOUR ASS.

 

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:12 | 4421357 Mr Pink
Mr Pink's picture

I agree...BTC needs a powerful military

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:18 | 4421393 ZH Snob
ZH Snob's picture

pegged to real assets?  like PM's, let's say.  oh, then we get into that nasty debate about who will vault the metal, can any entity in existence be trusted with that responsibility?  it will probably and eventually be brooked by having its value backed by a gold-backed currency in the coming reset.  maybe by then it will have adapted and gotten stronger from its current smack down.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:20 | 4421407 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar knows it's not possible, but supposing Bitcoin were pegged to gold, oil, whatever he would sell all his BTC and go into altcoins.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:36 | 4421478 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Always chasing that free lunch...

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:43 | 4421495 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Whatever brings the suckers in faster.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:42 | 4421502 akak
akak's picture

Sadly, just like ZH poster tmosely, who does not bittroll like foneystar but is even more rabid and hateful against those skeptical of bitcoin.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 18:50 | 4421538 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I'm not hateful or skeptical of it though. I was there when it first started. I know the whole thing is absolute BS being used by a few rather dishonest folks to get rich quick.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 21:48 | 4422209 Mad Mohel
Mad Mohel's picture

You carried the thread well friend, because you spoke the truth.

Mon, 02/10/2014 - 23:58 | 4422719 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Dishonest people use gold too.  I seem to remember a company that advertized on Glen Beck's show that was infamous for over charging and royally fucking their clients.

Just because crime happens in the streets doesn't mean we shouldn't have streets.

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