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Bitcoin Update: "Your Money May Be 'Tied Up' In Unconfirmed Transactions"
As the torch of responsibility is rapidly handed off from exchange to exchange to the Bitcoin source code, Gavin Andersen (one of Bitcoin's protocol core developers) explains just what is going on - and what it means for the 'wealth' stored in the virtual currency - "Users of the reference implementation who are bitten by this bug may see their bitcoins “tied up” in unconfirmed transactions" - so that's what 'bit' stands for in bitcoin...
Update On Transaction Malleability
You may have noticed that some exchanges have temporarily suspended withdrawals and wondering what’s going on or more importantly, what’s being done about it. You can be rest assured that we have identified the issue and are collectively and collaboratively working on a solution.
Somebody (or several somebodies) is taking advantage of the transaction malleability issue and relaying mutated versions of transactions. This is exposing bugs in both the reference implementation and some exchange’s software.
We (core dev team, developers at the exchanges, and even big mining pools) are creating workarounds and fixes right now. This is a denial-of-service attack; whoever is doing this is not stealing coins, but is succeeding in preventing some transactions from confirming. It’s important to note that DoS attacks do not affect people’s bitcoin wallets or funds.
Users of the reference implementation who are bitten by this bug may see their bitcoins “tied up” in unconfirmed transactions; we need to update the software to fix that bug, so when they upgrade those coins are returned to the wallet and are available to spend again. Only users who make multiple transactions in a short period of time will be affected.
As a result, exchanges are temporarily suspending withdrawals to protect customer funds and prevent funds from being misdirected.
Thanks for your patience.
As a reminder, Andersen previously explained:
Transaction malleability has been known about since 2011. In simplest of terms, it is a small window where transaction ID’s can be “renamed” before being confirmed in the blockchain. This is something that cannot be corrected overnight. Therefore, any company dealing with Bitcoin transactions and have coded their own wallet software should responsibly prepare for this possibility and include in their software a way to validate transaction ID’s. Otherwise, it can result in Bitcoin loss and headache for everyone involved.
As Mike Krieger recently noted,
Bitcoin is no longer in Phase 1 of its evolutionary cycle. I believe Phase 2 for Bitcoin began in earnest back in November 2013, when the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs held its first hearings on the topic. Those hearings made it clear that, at least for the moment, no significant roadblocks would be put in place to prevent people from transacting with one another using the crypto-currency. Phase 2 also saw the largest Bitcoin investment to-date, a $25 million infusion led by Silicon Valley VC firm Andreessen Horowitz, as well as acceptance by major U.S. retailers, with Overstock being the most significant. Bitcoin is becoming serious, and serious means serious accountability.
As a free market currency, the market will decide the products required to keep the Bitcoin protocol open and functioning to its highest potential.
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Quelle suprise....
Paging Fonesex.
Hasn't made his presence felt yet, which leads me to believe he's either wallowing in a pool of tears or he hung himself.
Boner to the American people:
"Yeah you take it...right in the ass you fucking scumbag cocksucker!"
Here is a good explanation of the issue: http://www.coinspectator.com/andreas-m-antonopoulos-gives-insight-into-t...
[WARNING: Re-Post from earlier thread:]
Bitcoin has a Fundamental Flaw:
The block chain is growing exponentially. It was under 1 gigabyte less than 18 months ago; it's now near 15 gigabytes:
https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address=
At average US internet download speeds (~ 20 Mbps) that means 2 hours to download the block chain for the typical Bitcoin user.
If Bitcoin hopes to expand to cover even a tiny percentage of the transactions handled by an entity like Visa; the block chain will be well into the terrabytes.
Good luck with that...
See: Ethereum
I think I've seen enough, thanks though.
I'll have to talk to my wife about it.
freshly baked daily range of thousands anyone?
We are so glad that fonestar will soon never be commenting on this website again
Poor Foneystar
Fonestar is the herpes of ZH. He'll be back.
And the Great Satoshi called his disciples around him on the mountaintop, and seeing their concern, her began to teach them thusly: SELL! SELL! SELL IT ALL! TAKE WHATEVER YOU CAN GET!
I'll buy your BTC at $100.
Do you really believe it's going to nothing? Then sell to me.
Dear Lender,
I regret to inform you that our mortgage payment to you may be tied up in unconfirmed transactions for an indeterminate length of time. This is something that cannot be corrected overnight.
We take this action for your own protection. You can be rest assured that my wife and I have identified the issue and are collectively and collaboratively working on a solution. Please bear with us. Have a nice day.
Sincerely,
Your Valued Mortgagor
Maybe the laundered money fleeing Bitcoin will swarm to Silver and bail out the ZH flight club setting on a 50% loss since 2011.
USD FOREVER BITCHEZ!!!
Supposedly all of fonestar's wealth is in danger of being vaporized tonight. Yawn....
Yawn? Are you sleepy? I know, I know... it's already been a long week, and it's well past your bedtime.
Whisper rumor that the elusive "Satoshi" is to make a midnight appearance to calm bitcoin liquidity/stability/fraud-ility concerns...
..stay tuned.
Just checked my gun safe, all my silver and gold is still safe and sound.
"If you can't stand in front of it and defend it with an AR-15, you don't own it." Ann Barnhardt
Bitcoin, smitcoin. Cat food and ammo, baby.
FFS. Bitcoin is the first honest currency after gold, and the core dev team are calling the situation as it is. The software fix is already implemented in the reference client.
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/1bbca24
Compare this honesty to 100 years of smoke and mirrors from the Fed, BoE, BoJ and others. Compare this honesty to the fog which surrounds the financial situation of the TBTF banks!
The details of currency creation and value determination are not for the common man. Matters of such consequence must be made in secret from the prying eyes of the public. This is why the USD is so stable.
Has anyone seen my bitcoins?
Oh where, oh where could they be?
These are not the coins you're looking for.
They will never stop the hackers. We have been down this road before where people claim some new product is unhackable. If it is man made, and it talks on the internet, it will be exploited. Do not doubt the imagination and motivation of an intelligent hacker after millions of untracable dollars. There is no puzzle with a bigger payoff, in the hacking world, than bitcoin.
In my house, ammo is best used on cats. Can't coexist.
Yeah but can Barnhardt kill Satoshi with that pink AR-15?
FEDbuster: Just checked my gun safe, all my silver and gold is still safe and sound.
You can store your silver in ONE gun safe?
Valium Addict; can't worry; can't stop yawning.
Re: "50% loss since 2011."
ZH is dominated by traders. You think everybody bought at the top and then sat with their fingers up their behinds? "Much have you to learn, youngling."
What? You mean you settle in USD at the end of the day? Thanks for proving my point.
USD FOREVER BITCHEZ!!!
@Lore
Don't mean to misdirect the thread but I can't help but respond to you. You say, "ZH is dominated by traders."
Historical studies show that 80% of commodities trades result in net losses. So, to answer your question, "You think everybody bought at the top and then sat with their fingers up their behinds?" Answer: yes they did or 80% lost their shirts.
Let's get serious and correct your statement: ZH is dominated by talkers. We all know that talk is a lot of hot air.
I think you'r a little off. it used to be that 90 % of Commodity traders lost their money. It improved to only 80% now lose their money. The point that is being made is that the Majority of people on this site are Traders. There are MULTIPLE DISCIPLINES of traders on this site that dont trade Commodities and are very successful. Tyler is a MACRO Trader and many contributors have given Traders on this site Different avenues to see different markets, and trade in Different ways.
LOL ZH Traders. Moaning about how they completely missed the rally for the last five years, moaning about how much they love gold despite it being 100% manipulated and corrupt, and moaning because they can't wrap their pea brains around the way money will be done in the future. Do you really think you'll be wandering around with a little strip of plastic with all your own personal financial numbers on it? So you can hand it to some waiter at a restaurant for him to skim? Or better yet so you can put those numbers into some website? So they can "safekeep" them for you?
Sometimes I truly do not get ZH
Re: "Sometimes I truly do not get ZH"
At least that part of your post makes sense, but the rest of it seems like gibberish, disconnected. You appear to be struggling with a conflict that I don't see. Rgds
I'll buy your BTC at $100.
fonestar will give you $200! (sorry CH1)
Dude, people need to suffer for their irrational hate. I would have worked with you!
Let's just send some Bitcoins and send them back. If Bitcoin is truly fubar'd then it shouldn't work right?
Except, Fonestar, it's clear from what and how you write that you have no money, none to speak of anyway. Bitcoin was your get-rich-quick-scheme to turn your nest egg of $2000 or whatever into millions.
Sure like i said, after I buy a bunch for 10$
Foestar has herpes or is the herpes.... Doesn't matter. If he comes back after the crpto-crash, he will be verbally assulted for his epic stupidity.
fonestar will never leave. Bitcoin is fine.
I'm leaving; stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
fonestar tends to have that effect upon people.
Fonestar makes Flux smile as Fonestar is a mirror of Zerohedge types, see?
Much hoarding, much doom. so gloom. No one like Fonestar because no one like Zero Hedge. Apple falls so close to tree. When community falls, no goods. No services. No transactions. Only friends. When community thrives, many goods. Many services. Many friends.
See constant?
If no friends now, no friends tomorrow.
Have dogecoin! Much friends! So community!
To the moon!
Truly one post for backup. Much save.
fonestar:
How often do mature adults refer to themselves in the third person?
An average of 135 spamtoshis a day.
Like a bad penny.
it should be worth at least a buck.
"it should be worth at least a buck."
Several weeks ago right here I estimated the value of 1 Bitcoin to be about US$1.00
However, I may have to reduce my estimate to 80 cents U.S., given the most recent problems in implementation.
$645.80 and falling...
fonestar shall not desert you.
And for that we are glad.
I am with you bud.
Band of Bitbrothers.
More like Jim Jones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEa5ANoKFNQ
Last year, me to wife: "Have you ever heard of BitCoin?"
Wife: "Is it that Internet money?"
Me: "Yes."
Wife: "Don't you dare buy any of that f***** s***!"
What is your wife's number? I am sure fonestar can get her to come around.
All scammers and hucksters know to never pitch the bitch! Women have more common sense. Maybe Fonestar should have consulted his mom when she was doing his laundry. Could've saved him his life savings.
"Ma where are my Bitcoins?" screams Fonestar from his basement lair....
One of many trying to launch the same concept. I watched their developers' sales pitch in the youtube selfie. Don't they have some unsavory TPTB type partners/backers?
cool concepts that will without a doubt come to fruition and change networking forever, and that have inifinite uses beyond cryptocurrencies, but really pokes too deeply into skynet-ish nightmares.
Most tools can be used for either good or evil purposes. The more powerful the tool the more frightening the possibilities. If only we have benevolent leaders. That's not gonna happen. Gawd I've gone luddite in my comfort level.
Scientist: '"Hey, I invented a way for us to travel to other galaxies in seconds!"
Sociopath: "Awesome, now we can kill them and steal their stuff. Or maybe just enslave them with joo spacebux."
Just let fonestar handle the smart thinking stuff. All you have to do is buy more Bitcoin.
Hey Jon...I thought you were starting a hedge fund ?
my comment was a reply to the "Ethereum" comment. My reply was spot on. Fuck your down arrow douchebag, and go back to your mom's basement
Yup.
The whole gimmick depends on the assumption that any user can fact check his block chain vs. the master chain. If someone is able to fork the chain, or even usurp the master chain via a sequence of phony trades it will be near impossible to detect the skimming until the broker starts to see mismatching in the house P&L sheet.
Sadly, just like Tulips the counterparties can not stand to fill orders for hard cash delivery and the whole system is now suffering a perma-loss of faith because nobody is willing to be a central bank who can offer hard currency collateral to the bitcoin dealers.
Completely and technically incorrect, but thanks for trying.
Only major services need to run full nodes with the full transaction history.
The vast majority of users can (and already have) switched to SPV clients, which only require a couple megabytes today and which grows by less than a megabyte per year. This is why you can have a cell phone wallet which syncs immediately and uses less bandwidth than web surfing.
Light clients only need the parts of the block chain that are relavent to them. And because the bitcoin blockchain uses merkle trees you can retrieve only the sub-segments that are relavent to your wallet, while being able to fully verify both their integrity in the main chain and the validity of the main chain.
Read up on bitcoin headers and merkle tree structure to understand how bitcoin was designed from the start to enable full verification with out the entire chain being required.
Not to be an "old fogie" on this but that seems awful complicated just to verify if something is money/currency or not, so you can use it, ya know, as a currency.
Trust is 99% of any "currency" and the first action of any con is to institute a sense of trust on the intended victim. Overly complicated anything is where you find conmen...from presidents to bankers to magicians to roofers banging on your door saying your ceiling is going to cave in if you don't do something!
Sayin.
"I don't understand it, therefore it must be made by conmen." is not an argument that anyone who does understand the system will accept.
If you don't feel comfortable with Bitcoin, I fully agree with you that you should not invest in it. That doesn't imply that people who disagree with you are deluded or stupid.
I think that the point is that the more folks learn about BC, the more of a gigantic PITA it seems like - at least for folks who don't want to make "Bitcoining" a full-time hobby.
I agree that it's not as simple as it could be yet, but that's how tech is. It gets easier over time.
I enjoy your posts, but this is not tech. This is not de novo science. This is application of tech that's been around for a long long time. The application has next to nil excuses for and no credible way to say, "Bear with us; we're still feeling our way around in the dark" much less, "Yeah, we knew about this 3 years ago, but didn't thikn it was important enoug to devote resources to."
Another poster called it an experiment, and that's very close to accurate. I am a scientist in more than one physical science. We do sometimes launch new ideas while they're frankly in the experimental stage and before they've undergone sufficient testing, and that's partly the beancounters driving that and partly the fear that someone else will get there first (IP notwithstanding). In other industries, running before you learn to walk has lead to dead or disabled humans and fat lawyers suing those who lacked due diligence but had sufficient insurance combined with soul-less and cost:benefit driven leadership.
Just because the underlying tech has been around for a long time does not imply that everything works perfectly in a 0.x beta release. Prior to Bitcoin, our collective experience with a global, distributed cryptocurrency was nil.
The better cryptocurrency that eventually unseats Bitcoin will have no excuses, however.
25 years back e-mails had to be managed from a command line, attaching files to an e-mail was even challenging for an undergraduate in computer science, but now even grandmas can handle that with ease.
I never said people who invest in it are stupid...you used the word invest, not me. My entire premise (if you want to call it that) from day one is, some very smart people can indeed be fooled...its happened to both of us...just keep investing "advice" separate from a new "money" paradigm.
Look at it this way (taking off from your avatar, with all respect, I sympathize with it) you need me and others like me to challenge you, to make sure what you're doing/thinking is right for all who read it.
This is Fight Club my brutha ;-)
Money and investing are not entirely separate things, in my mind.
And I'm down for people challenging me anytime (I'll talk your ear off if you let me!), but I've noticed that the people here aren't usually arguing in good faith or interested in facts; they just like throwing popcorn at whatever graph happens to be declining today (unless it's gold\silver). The slew of no-reply downvotes I get anytime I make a technical observation about the nature of Bitcoin seem to back me up.
"Money and investing are not entirely separate things, in my mind."
I guess thats where the disconnect is then.
Money, in all its variations, should have a known value against any commodity to be purchased, services or wheat. Investing is risk of that money already in hand (in all its variations) on an unknown outcome.
I bought a quantity of silver mid $30's. Did I purchase "money" or was that an "investment"?
All value is subjective, exists only in the minds of people, and is constantly changing based on expected utility. You buy what you think will do best in the long run. Sometimes you're right, and sometimes you're wrong, but the notion that there is a set thing you can trade for called "money" that exists outside this value fluctuation strikes me as wrong. Gold does not have a "known value" against wheat, except what you can get for it right this very instant. Tomorrow it might not trade for as much wheat as today, or maybe it will trade for more. Bitcoin is no different.
@Saro
Your silver purchase was neither buying money nor investing. You speculated just as you would have done had you bought copper, natgas or live cattle.
Re gold's "known value": over any multi-decade period of time deflate any commodity's price by gold's price and you will find a "known value" that has meaning that is not relative to "right this very instant".
Saro Gold does not have a "known value" against wheat, except what you can get for it right this very instant.
Tell me. What value or utility does gold or silver have compared to bitcoin, even if both go to zero?
Gold is used many applications such as electronics or jewlry. Silver also has the same applications in addition to other uses.
Does bitcoin?
As long as bitcoin has any value whatsoever you can use it to send value to anyone anywhere nearly instantaneously. It is a distributed ledger of ownership which can be used to run a stock exchange without a central clearing house as well as a return to a gold standard. The ledger and transaction network are valuable.
I don't buy gold thinking, "oh well, if this stuff goes to zero at least I can make some electronics out of it."
Well I think anyone who doesn't hold a significant portion of their wealth in Bitcoin is stupid though.
There is something quite trollish about you.
there are scores of commenters that I've gained insight from in the comments section of ZH, Falestar is not one of them.
fonestar is one of the sharpest Satoshis in the tool shed. When Zerohedge readers were polled in November 2013, 47% cited fonestar as a major inspiration in buying their first Bitcoin.
if you had a shred of decency you'd fall on your sword. if you haven't one, there are many who'd lend you one.
"47% cited fonestar as a major inspiration in buying their first Bitcoin"
And when 1 Bitcoin falls to 50 cents, they will still remember that inspiration from you.
Clown
So the other six billion, nine hundred and ninety nine million, nine hundred thousand of us?
Agreein'.
Bitcoin ain't real money?
Oh yeah? Well. it's sorta money.
Someone who accumulartes $Millions thru lying-cheating-stealing-rehypothedacting-corruption-bribery--deceit-conning-regulatory capture-using the law to bypass the law---and whatever else a Harvard MBA learns, ...
Then to escape capital controls and prison and get his $Millions out of the country, BIRCOIN can do it.
Just buy BITCOIN , transfer it out of the country to, say, Argentina, and sell at 20-to-40% discount to street re-sellers. It's done every day in one variation or another since, well, before anyone "looked a gift-horse in the mouth".
E.g., from 1970s thru 1980s [at least], Taiwanese paid 20% to Taiwan banks to wire their hot funds to USA and into USDollars, avoiding capital controls and other forms of bizarre justice. They were glad to reclaim 80% of it. No question asked. Done deal. Everybody happy.
BTW readers of ZH, just how do you suppose business is done in the real world?
Somebody (or several somebodies) is taking advantage of the transaction malleability issue and relaying mutated versions of transactions. This is exposing bugs in both the reference implementation and some exchange’s software.
Read what that says. Now read what I said. Now look what you said:
Nobody gives a fuck about light clients in the same way nobody gave a shit about single gold coin stackers when speculators were Corzine'd. If a major brokerage goes down and that money is frozen the cash is not going to be made whole without a central clearing/banker backstopping the gimmick. With those speculators wiped out, confidence will be gone. Go look at how many people pledged to roll their trading accounts over to a relaunched Man Global. Or how much gold was held in speculation at bullion banks pre & post.
Clear ?
Without a massive systemic boost to the crypto currency liquidity mechanism, the bitcoin is dead money. BRICS banning it out of currency flight fear have only hastened the deflation.
Tough to swallow, but someone needs to explain this, at least once.
Done speaking on 'coin again.
zaphod is correct. Client programs (on your PC for example) like Multibit only use the small fraction of the blockchain pertaining to THEIR OWN BTC. I use Multibit for that reason, it is easy to use and does not require downloading the blockchain.
3,000,000 copies of the blockchain are already out there IIUC. I do not have to have my own copy.
"The whole gimmick depends on the assumption that any user can fact check his block chain vs. the master chain. If someone is able to fork the chain, or even usurp the master chain via a sequence of phony trades it will be near impossible to detect the skimming until the broker starts to see mismatching in the house P&L sheet."
I'm only a jacklag programmer, dude. And even I can think of ways to work around that one. A registered parity block being the most obvious one.
Face the facts, guys, we are probably going to see multiple cypto-currencies going forward. Bitcoin probably isn't going to be one of them, I'll concede, but every step forward will make things harder and harder for the haters to fuck with. You don't have to get it perfect, you only have to make it more effort than just beating the actual owner with a golf club until he forks 'em over - see any difference between that and the fiat shit we currently have to use? Other than there's no central bank involved, of course. Though by that point they probably will be.
Cue Googlecoin or Applecoin....probably centrally cleared in 3,2,1.....
Smells Fishy.
"The block chain is growing exponentially."
Wait a minute, so they're pulling a BitBernanke on the whole deal?
Imagine that, digitizing a "currency", can lead the unsrupulous to devalue it and then it not being the store of wealth, as advertised.
This is shocking! ;-)
"The block chain is growing exponentially."
The blockchain is a ledger of bitcoin transactions, so if the data size grows exponentially it means the number of Bitcoin transactions is growing exponentially.
It does not look very exponential:
https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=1year&showDataPoints...
No? Try this:
https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=0&address
Storage costs per GB over time
2013 $0.05
2010 $0.09
2005 $1.24
2000 $11.00
1995 $1,120
1990 $11,200
1985 $105,000
1980 $437,500
Are storage costs falling exponentially?
Asymptotically approaching zero, even.
Yes they are falling exponentially.
Use Excel to plot the log of the price vs the date. It is more or less a straight line.
Even that is not an exponential function. It looks like in the beginning, but since Jan 2013 it looks very linear. The slope is more or less the same.
If you switch onto the logarithmic scale, you see that's far from being an exponential function, it should be more or less a straight line.
The Log Scale looks linear from July 2011 to present.
I an sure that a Least Squares fit of the Data Points will confirm Linearity.
First you attempt to obfuscate the Truth by restricting the Sample Space. Then you attempt to obfuscate by demonstrating non linearity.
You do this in order to promote a view rather than to consider the consequences of the Growth.
Why?
How much BTC do you own? Are you transparent? Are you attempting a Pump and Dump to the unwary?
Impossible if that can be an exponential function ever. Looks like you hold a degree in Zeromath.
The One Year Log Graph is LINEAR. You are aware of what linearity means.
https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=1year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=1&address=
You trapped yourself IN A LIE. I caught you. I expose LIES and give the Truth.
If a good part of the graph is linear on the linear scale, how can the whole function be exponential?
Meh, why bother Bunga. If this "excuse" is enough to keep a certain type of person off Bitcoin, Bitcoin will be better for it.
A serious question Bunga (as I think you follow this more than I) is there or is there not a finite supply of BitCoin and the blockchain is simply a confirmation of the first one "minted" to the last one that will ever be "minted"?
If so, doesn't that make the first ones ever minted more valuable than the last, given that, its exponentialy harder to get the very last one mathematically?
That is to say, there is no fiat price (that they are exchanged for) that values the last BitCoin that will ever be "mined" more than the first, which were far easier.
You see where this is going, right? ;-)
It's going to get harder mathematically but what counts is mainly the mining energy effciency (Hash/Wh), which is growing exponentially too.
But the last one mined will have the same value as the first one ever mined. And I hate using the word "mined" as it entails a marketing ploy that someones labor aside from being rich enough to buy the "tools" is doing the mining.
Never the less, it should have more value in our world (or any world) because its rare...being the last one.
Which was my point...look...I'm here trying to advise what I think and will probably get nowhere but Im sorry, it looks like an old fashioned ponzi scheme to me.
But the last ounce of gold mined will have the same value as the first one ever mined. And I hate using the word "mined" as it entails a marketing ploy that someones labor aside from being rich enough to buy the "tools" is doing the mining.
Never the less, it should have more value in our world (or any world) because its rare...being the last one.
Which was my point...look...I'm here trying to advise what I think and will probably get nowhere but Im sorry, it looks like an old fashioned ponzi scheme to me.
lol...I've never seen a BitNecklace or BitEarrings.
Maybe I have to wait for hologram advertising technology for that to catch my eye ;-)
And don't to forget to say 100 times a day "Only gold is money".
Bitcoin is fungible. Meaning there aren't Angus breed bitcoins or Hereford breed bitcoins. Each BTC is interchangeable with another, like raw bullion or USD.
Smells like a Ponzi scheme.
Except there's no Ponzi and there's no scheme.
What's also growing exponentially is "Project FUD" that the Fed & Friends have unleashed, and is evident by many of the blogs right here on ZH.
For those whose Prefrontal Cortex (PFC) is fully developed, operational and in regular use, will see things in context of the Big Picture, and realize that getting boned up the financial rectum at a rate of 85 billion times a month is the real issue to be concerned about.
The other issue to be more concerned about than the growing pains of Bitcoin, is how front-running the Fed's QE with gold purchases didn't really pan out so well (2012-2013), as the Tylers are embarrassed to admit. Nothing wrong with gold (got some myself), but right now it's not the goldbugs who are taking the fight to the CBs. It's Bitcoin and other CCs.
But hey, let's all pile onto Bitcoin, because "The enemy of my enemy is also my enemy." [rolls eyes]
My only problem with it Kirk is its encumbered, just like debt fiat. It relies on the same things as a credit card.
Electronic devices, communications and the really bad thing is, its digital...so it can't be "money", its the transference of money (digitally) which has value in and of itself (like Western Union) but its the same thing out the other side.
As long as Western Union remains a viable option to illegals I just don't get it.
Western Union can refuse to service you, Bitcoin cannot. Bitcoin doesn't even know who the sender and receiver is beyond the randomly generated addresses.
Western Union will divulge your information to any government agency that comes asking, most assuredly there are direct feeds to the Utah datacenter already. Bitcoin offers methods to protect your identiy if you choose to use them.
Western Union charges hefty fees. Bitcoin charges less than $0.10 per transaction. Conversion to local currency can incur additional cost but, even today, these costs usually fall well below Western Union's. In time competition among exchangers should bring those costs close to the actual cost of doing business.
nmewn, I am interested, what exactly is your definition of the word "money"? You seem to be implying that it isn't essentially data. Here's wikipedia's definition for kicks "Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts", note the term "record", reminds me of the blockchain.
How's this:
1) Store of Value
2) Medium of exchange
3) Unit of account
Bitcoin fails #1. Sorry, but "Money" should never lose over half its value in two months. No sane merchant would expose themselves to such an exchange risk.
It's a newborn technology with less than a 10Billion USD market cap. It isn't exactly a prime example of liquidity yet as I am sure you have noticed from many of the Tyler's chart postings. There simply isn't enough market depth yet to prevent these large short term swings. However it's price slope has been quite obviously going up over time as adoption increases while volatility is going down. Gold lost half of it's fiat market value in 2 years during the early 80's, I wouldn't think this should disqualify it from being money. Bitcoin has more than just stored any value I have so far put into it. Basically, #2 is a sure thing, #1 and #3 are not out of the question for the future.
"nmewn, I am interested, what exactly is your definition of the word "money"?"
Same as Pool Sharks.
I don't even like the idea of recieving a "digital check" for my labor (direct deposit) but my employer, in collusion with its accountants & bankers, force it on me. So come this Friday, I'll do the same thing I do every pay day, piss off the bank manager & draw suspicious looks from the teller and withdraw it all and convert it back to something closer to what it is supposed to be.
The check of course (digital or otherwise) is simply a demand for payment into something tangible.
That "something tangible" does me absolutely no good if its stuck in a bank (or in Mt.Gox...lol) just because someone else (government or private entity) decided to halt transfer back into the tangible...for whatever reason, legal or otherwise.
Money has this issue of freedom vs control tied to it, as you well know. I prefer to control my own, in the interests of my own freedom, dependent on nothing else once I aquire it.
...and were suddenly silenced"
Exponential progression is a feature of all ponzi currencies.
Exponential progression is a function of the universe.
We wouldn't be here otherwise.
And we wouldn't be having this conversation if it weren't.
Ponzis are fraudulent attempts to game this process.
Like the Federal Reserve and government in general.
I want to "expotentiialy progress" to the point where I don't have to work in order to feed myself.
But who will do the work to feed me? ;-)
Not to be flippant about the answer, nmwen, but here's this for starters:
http://robotswillstealyourjob.com
Let's discuss.
Skynet, great.
What could possibly go wrong ;-)
Plenty, of course, but look at how wrong the status quo already is, meaning catastrophically.
All new technologies come with risks, the question being how they stand up the the rewards.
Well I'm not a techno-phobe, its just at the age of 54, I've seen a lot of fads come & go. Just cause its new doesn't mean its the best.
Like I said another thread, BitCoin was fine (for what it is and does) while it was relatively obscure.
I subscribe to the ancient (originally Latin) apothegm, "There is nothing greater in nature than man, and there is nothing greater in man than mind."
Technology is, in its essence, applied mind, and I believe in it salvivically — i.e., we either think our way through, or we don't get through.
And I don't believe we will get through without re-inventing money, wresting it from the state and returning it to the people.
Which is what I believe cryptocurrencies are all about.
"At average US internet download speeds (~ 20 Mbps)"
that's a speed i could only dream about, my AT&T raise the bill every 2 months (so i now pay $118 a month and can not get anything else in my area....how fucked is that) download speed is 2.56Mbps.
and it goes down AT LEAST once a month, i have to turn the modem off/on at least 2 times a week (my 3rd modem in 2 years) and at times i wanna throw the computer against the wall my internet is so slow.
so no bitcoin bullshit for this guy.
I think you are confusing mining with a bitcoin transaction that is usually only a little while longer to confirm than using your visa card online.
Multibit is a bitcoin wallet designed with people like you in mind. It is basically the same program I use to run Bitcoin on my cell phone.
Interesting, if you look at the graph, it's *not* growing exponentialy. The graph, if its accurate, is more or less a simple striaght line graph (y=mx+c). Each month its growing by the same amount as indicated by the gradient (m).
Are you sure its accurate? If it is, what its really showing is far from an explosive growth in the *rate of* BTC transatactions, the block chain seems to be growing steadily by just over 1GB per month.
Ther problem with the Exponential Curve is that it can appear Linear while the fluctuations are actually diverging from the line.
If You see linearity on a Log Graph then there is Exponential Growth
Here is the One Year Graph on a Log Scale.
Do you see linearity?
https://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size?timespan=1year&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=1&show_header=true&scale=1&address=
If your read the dialouge Bunga Bunga trapped himself in A LIE. HE KNOWS BETTER and will LIE to push his product. He has lost CREDIBILITY.
Duh logarathmic scale that website chose to plot the available data on a graph is so close to linear that it makes no significant difference. A 1 to 10 logarithmic graph would have a much different scale.
Right, the slope is more or less constant which is impossible if y = ex
Thank you Shark! At last a non-emotional objection to Bitcoin. I think it's a great concept, but a really poor implementation that is unscalable and therefore doomed. Someone needs to think of a better way to prevent double-spending than a centralised blockchain. Did they really think this would fly?
We
don't
care.
It's
not
real.
This
doesn't
happen
with
gold.
What
Is
Your definition
Of
Real?
Because if you have a job, then I guess you are working for imaginary money ha? Or do you get paid in gold? Lol
President of PayPal has his credit card hacked.
Oh, the irony.
"This doesn't happen with gold."
Neither does commerce. When was the last time you bought anything with gold?
Just to be pedantic.... Hanged.
What does Woody Allen have to do with this? Oh, pedantic.
Happening sooner than expected, can we tar and feather that fagget kid now? Where is that son of a bitch?