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Bitcoin Crumbles To 3-Month Lows On Mt.Gox As CEO Defends Exchange

Tyler Durden's picture


The ongoing exodus from Mt.Gox - a major Bitcoin exchange - amid withdrawal halts, has seen a massive $150 spread open up between it and other exchanges. Having tumbled by over 50% in the last 2 weeks, Mt. Gox pricing is back at levels first seen 3 months ago. This chaos (and the ongoing 'finger-pointing' over who is to blame) had led Mt.Gox CEO Mark Karpeles to come out swinging in the following interview...


Mt.Gox price for Bitcoin has collapsed...


Leaving the exchanges with very different prices...


Mt Gox chief executive Mark Karpeles – whom some internet forum commenters have angrily criticized after the exchange blamed a flaw in Bitcoin software for a potentially serious security issue – has been in contact with Forbes with a response to the criticisms.

Via Forbes,

FORBES: Was Mt Gox’s coding to blame, and are other exchanges having the same problem?

Mark Karpeles: First, you need to understand that the Bitcoin implementation we use in MtGox was created back in 2011. The bitcoin client is not meant to handle the kind of load MtGox has and was having more and more troubles, lagging and crashing. We created our own implementation to solve those issues and to offer a better flexibility to our customers.

Over time Bitcoin changed and started implementing changes that would require people using previous versions of the software to upgrade. While we followed most of those update[s] we were more and more busy and couldn’t keep up with all the changes.

With bitcoin 0.8.0 (released 19 feb 2013) a breaking change has been included that would prevent transactions to be accepted if their signature did not include the right number of zeroes in front of the signature values (in an effort to reduce risks of transaction malleability). We did not notice this change but a few of the transactions we were sending would become invalid because of this.

Due to this fact we started being more transparent on the transactions we sent, and provide a publicly available list of pending transactions. Nobody was however able to tell us what went wrong at that time. Since only a few transactions were affected anyway we didn’t give it much attention (recently we were able to look more into this and fix this issue).

This meant however that some of our invalid transactions were listed publicly, making it rather easy for someone with bad intention to alter these, hence the reason why many people claim there was an issue in our code. Now, transaction malleability does not affect only us, and while it might be more difficult to affect exchanges using regular bitcoin[s], it remains rather trivial.

Is there anything the Bitcoin Foundation can do to help solve this problem?

The Bitcoin Foundation has hired Bitcoin Developers for the purpose of promoting Bitcoin use. I guess the most puzzling part is why this issue hasn’t be[en] solved since 2011.

What constructive steps are both the Bitcoin Foundation and Mt Gox taking together to resolve the issues, and to have everything working at its best for the future?

We have proposed a solution that would allow people sending bitcoins to track sent coins no matter what happens in terms of malleability (a solution that can be applied quickly and without breaking anything), and the Bitcoin developers are preparing ways to prevent modified transactions from being relayed by the network (which will take a lot of time and may break some bitcoin custom clients).

There is obviously no perfect solution in this world, however this is how things are as of today.

Note that our announce[ment], while unfortunately upsetting a lot of people, allowed other exchanges to be much more cautious when faced with failing transactions, and most likely helped a lot of people understanding and dealing with the problem.


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Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:56 | 4433681 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I saw a sign on a low brow store that read "We accept bitcoin."

Wait, I mean that the sign read "We no longer accept bitcoin."

Is still accepting them? (Honest question)

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:57 | 4433692 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

I have moved away from bitcoin and am now buying ultracoin from reggie....its much safer

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433706 fonestar
fonestar's picture


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:59 | 4433713 Say What Again
Say What Again's picture

This explains the Ramp-a-palooza today!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:07 | 4433745 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Sort of like when the COMEX collapses, retards will run around screaming "OMG GOLD PRICE IS COLLAPSING", when the truth is that people have just lost faith in the exchange, and have fled with their bitcoins/gold/silver/dollars.

Saying that "Bitcoin" has collapsed because of the ticker of a disgraced exchange is disingenuous at best and out and out fraud at worst.  Tyler should know better.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:16 | 4433815 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Hahaha Mosley

Maybe its the Jews

Or the Japs

Anyone's fault but yours


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:18 | 4433827 tmosley
tmosley's picture

What the fuck are you talking about?

You sound like an idiot.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:24 | 4433852 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Schadenfreude, Baby!

And fuck you, asshole

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:05 | 4434002 max2205
max2205's picture

Today was a bitcoin rally.....why not

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:22 | 4434074 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

Silk Road 2 moderator Defcon reported in a forum post that hackers have used atransaction malleability exploit to hack the marketplace. The hackers stole over 88,000 bitcoins worth $41,474,415, emptying the site’s escrow account.



Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:29 | 4434097 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

But bitcoin is a protocol and protocols can't be hacked!


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:56 | 4434198 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

I remember Bitcoin, that was back in 2013, a nothing year which saw the Boston Bombing, Nelson Mandella passing but most of all Twerking.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:20 | 4434488 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Such a move as this would scare lesser (physical) men.  To virtual men like fonestar, this is but a gentle rolling over to be expected.

The same group of bafoons will be here howling as Bitcoin temporarily retraces $2,500 from a high of $3,000.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:30 | 4434528 Hapa
Hapa's picture

SA(msung)TOSHI(ba) NAKA(michi)MOTO(rola)

Fri, 02/14/2014 - 06:32 | 4435786 fredquimby
fredquimby's picture

Satan omits a hook

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:03 | 4434439 ForTheWorld
ForTheWorld's picture

The updated amount is 4474.26 bitcoins worth $2,747,000.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:38 | 4434545 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

I think we can all agree the amount that vanished is irrelevant.  

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:24 | 4434513 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I see, so you are a sadistic bigoted ignoramus.  Thanks for letting us know.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 22:28 | 4435000 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Hahahaha! DramaQueenDave is back.

"Goodbye ZH.  last post from me.

Sadly, you are no longer relevant."


Looks like Pure Evil was right:

"You'll be back ya little turd."

Fri, 02/14/2014 - 00:23 | 4435341 akak
akak's picture

"As a dog returns to his vomit ..."

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:32 | 4433872 GaitherJ
GaitherJ's picture

The bitcoin community is letting MtGox collapse, like free market people should. MtGox has halted bitcoin withdrawals but has not halted cash withdrawals. That is why the price is dropping on their exchange and causing the overall price to drop too. Everyone is trying to convert their stuck bitcoin into dollars for whatever they can get. MtGox is fighting back by doing as many MSM interviews as possible. This isn't their first incompetent screw up or withdrawal freeze that's why bitcoiners are letting them fail.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:36 | 4433888 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Well said.  Hopefully soon a true P2P trading platform on the deep web.  All of this compliance and "lets see your papers" is bullshit.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:44 | 4433922 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture


The Bitcoin Foundation has hired Bitcoin Developers for the purpose of promoting Bitcoin use.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:19 | 4434054 Mercuryquicksilver
Mercuryquicksilver's picture

Fonestar, isnt that guy in your avatar a famous poet convicted of being a fascist with ties to Musolini and Hitler. Didn't he go crazy? I thought you promoted BTC because it could not be conrolld by a government, a corporation, or a bank. Isnt that the opposite of your fascism?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:30 | 4434308 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Ezra Pound?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:51 | 4434382 Mercuryquicksilver
Mercuryquicksilver's picture

Yep, thats his name. Thanks.

The conspriacy theory is that BTC is the FED's USD part II. When USD fails the FED already has a backup currency that it can manipulate (and record all transactions). The CT would make Musolini proud. Thats the only tie in I see between Ezra Pound and BTC.

I hope fonestar follows up with his intrest in Pound. Last time I checked his BTC wallet it had less than 2 coins in it. Sometimes I think he makes stuff up.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:04 | 4434441 fonestar
fonestar's picture

How many wallets does fonestar manage?

(Hint: more than you can count on your digits)

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:19 | 4434494 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

Do you own any Quarkdongbits?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:52 | 4434385 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, pound placed his bets along with the fascists that they would end usury.  He was called crazy in part because he did not like the fact he saw the world being taken over by a global network of usurious bankers and their schemes. 

Similarly, stackers and Bitcoiners are identified as "crazy" by the sheep nearly eighty years later for trying to protect themselves from those same bankers.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:55 | 4434404 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

"Yes, Pound placed his bets along with the fascists that they would end usury."

That sounds more like "stupid" than "crazy."

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:01 | 4434422 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Pound's father was an assayer at the Phil mint.  Oy the irony.


Fri, 02/14/2014 - 13:32 | 4436811 Mercuryquicksilver
Mercuryquicksilver's picture

I get it, thanks. Why so many wallets?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:55 | 4433973 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Denninger had an interesting point this morning about bitcoin that maybe the bitcoin advocates can answer - why is there a significant price difference on the various exchanges and why doesn't big money swoop in to arbitrage those differences to make a shitload of money? You go into any coin shop, online or internet, and there is basically one gold/silver price.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:20 | 4434042 GaitherJ
GaitherJ's picture

It's really hard, if not impossible, to get money on and off the exchanges. Usually takes days to set up an account and days to get money in the account.

You would also have to be able to get the coins out of Gox and onto another exchange, which you can't because Gox shut down bitcoin withdrawals.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:55 | 4434204 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

I can't speak for "big money", why don't you go ask them?

I have a small arbitrage operation going but it obviously is not affecting the price difference in any visible way.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:12 | 4434465 harposox
harposox's picture

Denninger thinks a 1% spread is "significant," but historically this spread has been much higher. When you factor in all of the deposit, withdrawal, trading, wire, and currency exchange fees, any potential arbitrage profit evaporates. Personally I think Coinbase has been running a bulk arbitrage (with customer funds) and that is what's caused prices to converge over the last few months... but that's just idle speculation on my part.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 22:56 | 4435117 GaitherJ
GaitherJ's picture

Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't been right about much in my life.....but I think once the MtGox nonsense sorts it self out the BTC price climbs back up.

There are is also a theory out there that the DDoS attacks on the big exchanges that have been happening are hard core BTCer's forcing the mallubility flaw into the open so the community will deal with the problem. So far the "bitcoin programers" have dismissed the problem as minor and insignificant. However the problem isn't small if you want to run a big automated efficient exchange.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:19 | 4434062 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  When/If comex collapses gold will find true "price discovery." The price of "physical gold" will go ballistic!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:08 | 4433751 Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

I'm still looking to buy an "I Love BitCoin" T-shirt from someplace that accepts PayPal!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:22 | 4433831 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar got one on eBay for around $10 (they didn't accept Bitcoin).

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:29 | 4434303 fourZero
fourZero's picture

why do you insist on referring to yourself in the third person?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:33 | 4434313 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Probably because it's about one of the most irritating things on Earth.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:41 | 4434324 Emergency Ward
Emergency Ward's picture

Thanks fonestar, I'll check out that lead, kinda overpriced for my meager budget, maybe they'll go "on sale" later, but if it's "all cotton", what the heck.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:01 | 4433715 zaphod
zaphod's picture

As I write this MtGox is at $467 and bitstamp is at $617, so gox is $150 below other exchanges. The market is saying who they trust and it is not gox.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:06 | 4433740 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Actually it was funny, fonestar tried to fund his wallet with 0.170 BTC at but by the time it reached three validations he no longer had enough to fund the escrow for the seller (less than $100).

No gas or lunch for poor fonestar.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:16 | 4433804 ThroxxOfVron
ThroxxOfVron's picture

You mean NO ONE will trade You a fucking dollar menu burger or a stale box of pop-tarts for a Bitcoin?


You really think Karpeles is calmly giving interviews with Forbes while Mt. Gox bleeds out?

ONLY a select few are going to be ALLOWED to redeem shit.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:21 | 4433836 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Oh well, sucks to be them I guess.

Hopefully it will give fonestar a chance to get more CheapCoins.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:45 | 4434360 Johnny Cocknballs
Johnny Cocknballs's picture

Volatility, Mr. Fonestar, is how this is gonna work. 

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:03 | 4433728 walküre
walküre's picture

Is Mt. Gox viable? Despite all the bashing of Mt. Gox from your quarters, the question would have to be to any BTC friend and investor.... is it now the time to buy BTC through Mt. Gox at a discount?

Is this like buying AAPL at $350 from another exchange, then cashing it in at $500 on the NSDQ?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:08 | 4433750 fonestar
fonestar's picture

After all of their screw ups and piss poor excuses you'd have to be crazy to send dollars or Bitcoin to MtGox.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:11 | 4433779 walküre
walküre's picture

Depends how big they let the spread go. Eventually it's tempting enough for serious money to be poured in. Gox is still the biggest player in your sandbox. Will they go away completely? Dissolved and all wallets shut for good? Is that possible with the finite commodity or currency that is BTC? Seriously interested to see where this goes. If Gox fails, the entire crypto currency story is losing years and years of credibility. Think Gox as the Lehman moment for your world but 10x worse.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:16 | 4433803 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Hardly.  Gox is just a brief chapter in the early stages of Bitcoin and its demise will hardly discredit the entire cryptosphere.

Bitcoin is an empire that will last 1,000 years.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:16 | 4433813 ThroxxOfVron
ThroxxOfVron's picture

"Bitcoin is an empire that will last 1,000 years."

WOW...  ...I've never actually SEEN a motherfucker jump the shark before.

From now on I'm calling You FONZstar.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:29 | 4433867 fonestar
fonestar's picture

you can call fonestar whatever you like (as long as it begins with F and ends with !!!)

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:48 | 4433939 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

How about Fuckhead!!! ?


That was mean of me.  I apolog... haha fuck it.  No I don't.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:51 | 4433943 ljag
ljag's picture

Dead phone..

And Reggie's will last how long before its software is breached? ( you did say Gox's problem was bad software and not BC itself?) And this will last 1000 yrs. LOL,,,,,,

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:50 | 4433947 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

"Bitcoin is an empire that will last 1,000 years."

Reminds me of these newsletters I used to get from some outfit calling itself the National Inflation Association founded by Jonathan Lebed. They'd send out their newsletters once a day, sometimes three times a day pumping up a stock. Page after page with all kinds of technical analysis. Broadvision and Synacor were two that come to mind. For months they'd pump a stock and it would rise, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. But the end result was always the same - the stock would come back to earth to precisely the point where it was prior to the "pump-and-dump". Bitcoin will end the same way, not with a bang but a whimper.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:19 | 4434061 whatthecurtains
whatthecurtains's picture

"Bitcoin is an empire that will last 1,000 years.""

A 1,000 year Bitcoin Reich?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:33 | 4434320 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

I have serious doubts whether there's even going to be electricity in 1,000 years.  

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:31 | 4433866 walküre
walküre's picture

Like with everything else in the financial world, you want an orderly exit or orderly default. Maybe Gox account holders get 1/10th of their balance. It would require the BTC board to get all exchanges to pile in. I'm looking at this through the lens of the fiat world. It's a test to your industry. If Gox has issues, no matter how long and how well they were known, then the other can have issues too. Confidence is what supports your currency as much as the others.


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:07 | 4434239 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

Confidence is what supports your currency as much as the others...if not more, much more.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:46 | 4433933 BlackChicken
BlackChicken's picture

Bitcoin is an empire that will last 1,000 years

Didn't Hitler say the same kind of thing?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:46 | 4434150 cliffynator
cliffynator's picture

I don't think Hitler had any Bitcoins.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:03 | 4434429 I Write Code
I Write Code's picture

Bitcoin is an empire that will last 1,000 years.

... ruled by their immortal Emperor Ponzi.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:14 | 4434038 TMLutas
TMLutas's picture

As long as the biggest exchange carrying BTC is the initialization of "Magic The Gathering Online Xchange" I think that there's an inherent credibility problem there. They made a smart move to rebrand from trading cards to cryptocurrency but once you are working on trading money, it's unacceptable to have this level of poor execution. Mt. Gox should have been paying for a standards guy to constantly monitor the BTC standard and ensure that MT. Gox's implementation was already 100% compliant before it was rolled out to the public. Mt. Gox didn't do the bare minimum that their position of trust required, they become unviable as a going concern. 

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:32 | 4434101 ThroxxOfVron
ThroxxOfVron's picture

"Mt. Gox didn't do the bare minimum that their position of trust required, they become unviable as a going concern. "

Sounds like the kinda thing that People end up with nail-gun to the head for...

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 21:39 | 4434776 August
August's picture

Kind of like buying silver from Tulving.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:09 | 4433764 BTCTalks
BTCTalks's picture

Could be, but I don't think the risk is worht the trade.  There is no guarentee that you will actually receive coin when purchased on MFGox.  Furthermore, if you do not already have a cash account set up with them it will take weeks to fund it.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:41 | 4433917 walküre
walküre's picture

Explain this to me

mtGoxUSD Last price 461 / volume (24h) 28,288.69 (of BTC presumably)

runner up

bitstampUSD Last price 614 / volume (24) 25,683.79

Despite the problems, there are still nearly 29k of BTC transactions within the last 24 hours. I've checked this site frequently and Gox has always been on top of the list.

- with the exchange nearly closed, what is being traded and how?

- Gox being the equivalent to the biggest exchange or bank in the world, with the highest volume shutting down. Can you imagine the fallout?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:53 | 4433950 BTCTalks
BTCTalks's picture

Given the trans mal issues, the volume could be skewed to the upside.  Furthermore, Gox has traditionally been the largest exchange and without the ability to transfer either coin or cash out, people may simply continue trading on Gox as a cheap call.  Essentially, if you still have cash or coin on Gox, you have to look at it as a sunk cost - at that point, why not trade?  Gox has bounced back before (I don't think it will this time), so I think they are trying to pad their balances before hoping to receive a payout.  

If only we had a participant volume as opposed to coin and cash.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:36 | 4434117 walküre
walküre's picture

What are you trading BTC on Gox for? Are the account holders just wasting time trading BTC for USD, EUR or CNY in the hopes to cash out one day? Sorry, this makes no sense. Biggest exchange by volume and all the pips can do is trade / transfer within their own account, maybe with other Gox holders? Does this make sense to you? Are Gox players stupid or bored or both? Few maybe but we're talking biggest exchange here. So ... something doesn't add up for me anyway.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:10 | 4433768 zaphod
zaphod's picture

In a normal world yes.

The flaw to your plan is that no one has been able to Withdraw any money out of MtGox for almost a year now. And last week MtGox stopped BTC withdraws as well. 

So you have an exchange that trades dollars for BTC, and where you can see your balances, but they do not let you transfer any of those funds out. 

And people still used them for almost a year in this state. The sooner Gox dies the better.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:32 | 4433882 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

Sounds just like the situation with Germany's gold.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:36 | 4433886 walküre
walküre's picture

How did people use Gox for a year without conducting any transactions? You mean, they weren't even able to use their Gox account to buy the tuition in Cyprus or the Maserati in Long Beach, CA? I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to understand the reason why Gox which comes up as the biggest exchange was able to lure investors for a year to place Dollars into BTC wallets without allowing any outflows. I think the problems are more recent.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:25 | 4434284 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

In the past, BTC withdrawals from Gox were working fine with the occasional hiccup. 

USD withdrawals were kneecaped by the Feds about a year ago.  Euro withdrawals were slow and Yen withdrawals were working fairly well.  Since the beginning of 2014, even Yen withdrawals have basically stopped.  And now BTC withdrawals as well.  Pretty fucked up situation.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:13 | 4433799 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No more than now is the time to buy gold and silver through MF Global.

Any dollars or bitcoins that are sent to Mt. Gox will be lost for months or years in the upcoming bankruptcy proceedings.

This is what the COMEX will look like when it collapses.  Paper gold and paper silver will go to zero, while the real thing takes off, freed from the shackles of the exchange.  The same will happen with Bitcoin.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:23 | 4433847 Dr. Kenneth Noi...
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater's picture

It's called arbing, and yes it would be.

BTC has some juicy f--kin' spreads, assuming you get trades to clear!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:16 | 4434053 vaft
vaft's picture

I'm attempting it - what the hell. 25btc purchased on mtgox @ 460. btc isn't for the risk averse.



Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:12 | 4433792 akak
akak's picture


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:29 | 4434089 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  When one resorts to blabbing BTC jargon in the 3rd person, it's a clear symptom of having ones head in the 'Satochi Fart Jar' for far too long.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:12 | 4433796 Infinite QE
Infinite QE's picture

Yep, the lessons of ponzi is be in early and most importantly out early.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:07 | 4434026 manofthenorth
manofthenorth's picture

I have a serious question for the ZH brain trust. What , if anything , makes bitcoin , ultracoin or any  other coin unique. It seems to me it is a bet on a horse race. They are all running the same race but at the end they are all horses. The FIATs are unique because of the societys ( military ) that backs them. PMs should require no explanation , they are elements and are UNIQUE , no room for argument. Gold is just Gold , FRN's backed by the most dangerous and destructive military aparatus in the history of the World. I can see why people bet on those the way the do. What I still have not been able to reckon is WHAT makes bitcoin different from any other digital coin. Anybody want to help this old fool learn something he can not figure out for himself ?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:47 | 4434142 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

I think you answered all your own question(s) with the "in-betweens" regarding the "military" and "FRN"s

My advice? Don't gargle with Satoshi Nakamoto's cum like Fonestar has been doing for the past several months.

He's the poster child now for what not to do in the Bitcoin realm. 

I'd say off-hand by the "up ^"'s he's been receiving today he's been humbled and humiliated!


The only way we're ever going to get any of it back and it's my firm belief that we've missed that train too many times in the past 13 years to count, let alone the last 50, is obeying the laws that we already have on the books. More precious than any currency, stock bitcoin or PM could ever hope to be.

There should have been a civil war in this Country 10 years ago with Bush and Cheney swinging from rope long before the "Manchurian Candidate" from Chicago made his presence known!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:01 | 4434224 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

fonestar says bitcoin is best but we all know that gold is best.


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:09 | 4434244 chemystical
chemystical's picture

In principle there's not a tinker's damn difference between any of them. 

The pumpers will tell you - correctly - that it is the network effect that gives their relative value.  The current leader enjoys:

  • the widest spread adoption by common folk wanting to trade goods and services or simply give away their Btc
  • the largest collection of merchants who will accept it
  • devotees with the highest hashing power ("my dog's bigger than your dog")

That's huge of course.  What the pumpers (not meant too pejoratively) are rarely willing to tell you and will equivocate endlessly rather than cede a that:

  • Btc has no intellectual property (neither patent, nor trademark, nor copyright
  • Btc has no contracts, no letters of intent, no letters of credit, no assets, no real tangible property. what it instead has is....
  • the network - which consists of OTHER PEOPLE's property, and those other people can drop the network like a hot potato and take THEIR assets elsewhere.  In fact, many miners have their programs set to mine whichever cryptocurrency gives them the best return for the kW's their computers' consume  They switch at a moment's notice by design.  The more miners that do this the more you'll see stability in relative value to some extent.  It's the miner's version of HFT in some ways, and that's gonna cause problems (if it already hasn't).
  • merchants have ZERO invested in this.  No hardware, no scanners or swipers, no initial investment that can't be switched over to accepting wtfcoin in a heartbeat.  No one in any part of the transaction chain is really married to Btc: not the merchant, the exchange,or  the escrow issuers (when there is one).  If this all pans out they'll most likely accept any number of crypto currencies not much differently than they currently accept VISA, Discover, Cash, etc.  One salient difference is that VISA and other plastics come with strings attached, and currently cost more to conduct the transaction from the electronic aspect, but there are total costs to be considered, and they need to add counterparties to the transaction to insure against failure to perform.  Those counterparties aren't going to do that out of the kindness of their hearts.  What this would likely do is force plastic's business modle to change and to brings their costs in line to compete.

Too much said already...but you asked

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:37 | 4434330 manofthenorth
manofthenorth's picture

Thanks to the ZH brain trust. These are the conclusions that I have come to as well. In this age of high bandwidth bullshit in high def , I find the need to check myself regularly to see that I am not totally full of my own brand of BS. I do believe in the power of peer to peer commerce. Bitcoin seems to me to be another conduit for transactions the same as so many others. The system just seems so fragile that in the age of continuity of Government plans complete with internet kill switches I do not want my hedge locked up in any virtual exchange when I NEED it. Call me old fashioned but I will stick to the shiny stack that can be drawn upon 24/7/365 and defended vigorously by ME and some Pb/Cu barbaric technology. But I am just another natural born fool. I do greatly appreciate the diversity of opinion and intellect found on these threads. May we find the best in one another and choose well for our families sake.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 20:01 | 4434423 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

Ditto MON.

In it's current state the "engine" of our world commerce which rests against billions of keyboards and computer application(s) we don't know about, their unfortunately at the present time are "no rules that govern it" and haven't governed it since it came into existence more than 20 years ago.  For lack of a better analogy it really is the open frontier and the Wild West and it's unfortunate to repeat this but it's very deliberate.

Until we have lawyers and judges that will prosecute financial crimes to the fullest extent possible which we know are the worst they have ever been in large part because of the technology that allows it to be exploited we will keep seeing it and it will only get worse.

As I've said many times before Bitcoin is a marvelous medium of exchange principle that has real worth and potential in the future, but until you have an investment in protecting the investors using it along with guarantee(s) by the service providers to build real authentication into those networks (on the outsie), in addition to what BTC already offers (on the inside) it's doomed.

Many will say encryption in BTC is already enough to make it work.  I say BS.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 21:27 | 4434728 BTCTalks
BTCTalks's picture

There are some important differences between bitcoin and certain "altcoins." Bitcoin is deflationary, so me altcoins are designed to be inflationary (see: Dogecoin). Some are centralized scams waiting to be (or already are) corrupted by TPTB (see: Ripple). Others are built to be simpler than bitcoin and allow for "smart contracts" like derivatives and conditional contracts (see: Ethereum). Yet others still are clear pump and dump schemes (see: Maxcoin).

Many in the community foresee a future with potentially dozens of different digital currencies, perhaps with different characteristics, trading simultaneously and priced off of a bitcoin underlying.

While the technology behind bitcoin will not be leaving us any time soon, bitcoin might not end upon being the final currency. Another currency very well may come around with some aspect that is so superior to bitcoin that everyone switches to it, but it seems unlikely. Not only is the network effect enormous, but bitcoin is flexible. Remember this is only bitcoin version 0.0.8

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:48 | 4434174 verbot
verbot's picture

the Middelton Gambit!!!...i like him and awarded many quatloos to his and mercuryquicksilver was guessing avatars on fonestar(hi fonestar!) oh this ultracoin rumble is gaining steam!...oh...verbucks...its whats for money...
but good way to get us rocking on al...lmao tylers..thankyou

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 21:33 | 4434759 Occams_Chainsaw
Occams_Chainsaw's picture

I picked me up some BitchCoin from my favorate pimp named Fly Guy.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:55 | 4433694 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Why are people so surprised?  Looked like a bubbe to me.


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:07 | 4433762 tmosley
tmosley's picture

>Not knowing the difference between an exchange and a traded currency


I have a feeling you are going to become very poor due to your lack of understanding of how markets function.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:04 | 4433735 BTCTalks
BTCTalks's picture

Yes, Overstock does still accept BTC.  As I predicted, I think we will be seeing $500 in BTC in short order.  Karpeles decided to try to cover his own rear-end by blaming bitcoin and the Bitcoin Foundation (the board of which he sits (sat) on and of which MtGox was one of only 2 "gold members") for not ennacting reform on something that had been known since 2011.  The issue is not that the Bitcoin Foundation should have done anything - given the open-source nature of bitcoin, they should not have done anything - but rather that exchange owners and operators should have taken common sense precautions to protect against these trans mal issues.  Other major exchanges were prepared for this type of issue well ahead of time.  It was only Karpeles who decided not to implement proper security measures.  He belongs in jail.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:09 | 4433777 Grande Tetons
Grande Tetons's picture

 He belongs in jail.

He is a member of a very large club. 

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:11 | 4433789 zaphod
zaphod's picture

Karpeles acts as if the Bitcoin Foundation is the company responsible to pay coders to fix stuff. That is nonsense.

Bitcoin is an open source project, the commonly accepted model is for companies to pay coders to work on project important to them (or for individuals to volenteer). If Karpeles wanted this fix, he should have had MtGox implement the fix and add it to the code base. The individuals working on Bitcoin for free felt other issues were higher priority and said so.

Karpeles has no one to blame but himself. Yes, he should be in jail. 

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:40 | 4433845 BTCTalks
BTCTalks's picture

Developers actually offered to implement the changes when they realized the weakness in the code.  Gratis.  Karpeles (admittedly a Dungeons and Dragons nerd until creating Gox) succombed to the stereotypical nerd hubris and thought he was too smart and therefore declined.

There is also talk that there were some patches implemented that sat in an update he never uploaded.  Real professional operation.  Hell, they did not even check invoices versus confirmed transactions which is what created this problem in the first place.  Imagine Target handing out refunds without checking the validity of recipts?  Some people re-submitted claims 2 and 3 times and got refunds every time.  

Once this exploit was discovered, the same attack took place across every exchange which is why they shut down withdrawals until they could figure out the problem.

Imagine 10,000 people lining up at the customer service counter at Target with shoeboxes of recipts.  Sure, some of the customers may have legitimate issues, but it is safer and easier to just close up shop for a day and re-evaluate (see: Bitstamp, BTC-e)

I hope Karpeles realizes what he did.  I would not be terribly surprised to she him turn up dead.  Except in this case, the media would not report is as a suicide.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:17 | 4434261 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

 Some people re-submitted claims 2 and 3 times and got refunds every time.   Once this exploit was discovered, the same attack took place across every exchange

that's quite a community.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:10 | 4433772 takeaction
takeaction's picture

I almost fell for the hype on this turd...I even got as close as opening an account wit Mt COCKS...I am so glad I didn't enter this shit pool.  

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:29 | 4433863 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar has been on BTC-e for months and they've been great!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:53 | 4433683 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

Fonestar,i listend to you and nowi hae lot 30% of my man...what should i do?  buy more?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:59 | 4433704 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Fonestar/Coinstar bought each & every one of his btc @ $5. He's net positive for a while.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:57 | 4433705 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Don't blame fonestar, I'm sure he had all the applicable disclosures under his constant buy rec's.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:59 | 4433712 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

Since you took Fonestar's advice and bought bitcoin, just send him a bill for your losses. I'm sure he'll be more than happy to reimburse you...

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:03 | 4433733 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar never pays anyone back.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 10:25 | 4441900 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Spokent like a true bankster, scammer or thug

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:02 | 4433716 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Just keep buying those cheap coins!  Gox is giving up the last of her goodies!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:09 | 4433754 ThroxxOfVron
ThroxxOfVron's picture

How the fuck can Mt. Gox 'sell' Bitcoin with an instatnt fucking $150 rebate/subsidy per coin?


You really think that Mt. Gox is taking ALL Comers and just eating losses until the kitty is clean?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:02 | 4434219 Grosvenor Pkwy
Grosvenor Pkwy's picture

It's reasonable to assume that Mt.Gox will never pay out a penny of US$ or even a fraction of a Bitcoin. If you ever get anything out of it, consider it like a gift, or winning the lottery.

Various exchanges such as the elusive black-market "Silk Road version 2" are failing left and right also. It's basically a huge cave-in. Unless you have your Bitcoins in your own secure storage, you are at risk. And even then, the value of those Bitcoins in US$ may go down further. (I may be wrong on this, but it's my best estimate based on reading many commentaries on reddit etc.)

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:09 | 4433763 funthea
funthea's picture

Paging: fonestar to the red-phone, fonestar to the red-phone.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:13 | 4433787 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar actually has an old red POTS 500 class rotary fone that he plans on doing up in Bitcoin style.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 19:24 | 4434283 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Fonestar,i listend to you and nowi hae lot 30% of my man...what should i do?" 

What you might do is consider yourself lucky you didn't pull the trigger when 1 Bt was going for $1256 USD. 

He was pumping just as head then as he has been lately.  His credibility (what little there was_ has been shot to Hell. 

A read of his youtube profile and his occassional civil comments herein might lead you to believe that he is a forthright person who truly does believe in freedom from the BoE, the FED, etc. 

The amount of utter and no-stop bullshit, however, might be expected to lead others in his circle to tell him repeatedly to stfu.  They've failed miserably.  Maybe they're adherents to the "any publicity is good publicity" axiom.  That said, I wouldn't hire Jeffery Dahmer to babysit; notoriety nothwithstanding. 

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433684 TheRideNeverEnds
TheRideNeverEnds's picture

People must be liquidating their BTC to buy /ES, better get on this train before it leaves the station, next stop 1900!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433685 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:02 | 4433718 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar hopes Satoshi cuts the head off that stupid Gox!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:04 | 4433734 ThroxxOfVron
ThroxxOfVron's picture


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:57 | 4433687 Rockatanski
Rockatanski's picture

i'd rather have DOGECOIN


much wow

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:08 | 4433774 uhb
uhb's picture



Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:38 | 4433899 Rockatanski
Rockatanski's picture

relax, its a joke.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:50 | 4433948 Flux
Flux's picture

Dogecoin is for real. Such Currency. So Money. Wow.

Dogecoin recently soared $40M in value thanks to so chinese exchange Bter. Now exchange yuan for dogecoin!

To the moon!

“We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things. Not because they are easy, but because they are such hard.”

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:57 | 4433693 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:55 | 4433696 righthandbarber
righthandbarber's picture

i just bought.......went full retard

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:36 | 4433898 Saro
Saro's picture

Don't panic.  Just let Mt. Gox finish self-destructing and a large weight will be lifted off of Bitcoin.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:57 | 4433697 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture



Earth to fonenova...what is your reading? -over

fonenova: "Mayday! Mayday! Mayday!"

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:03 | 4433723 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar is here!  Here, there, everywhere!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:22 | 4433838 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture



You sound like a cross between Sam-I-Am and Savoir Faire...

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433698 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

It's not the end, but these guys should be embarrassed.

Some well managed exchange is going to open some day and blow these losers out of the market.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:07 | 4433761 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

It's not the end, but these guys should be embarrassed.

Some well managed exchange is going to open some day and blow these losers out of the market.

That could easily be said about the NYSE.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433699 Blazed
Blazed's picture


Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:03 | 4433729 fonestar
fonestar's picture

mBTC, uBTC... whatever you can afford!

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433700 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

Bitcoin? Didn't Bernie Madoff have something to do with that company?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433701 Ulterior
Ulterior's picture

In before 15$, then I will think of getting in

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:59 | 4433702 Mitch Comestein
Mitch Comestein's picture

Interesting that the top in Bitcoin (so far) coinsides with the low in gold.  Hey, maybe they will write about Bitcoin in the 2029 updated release of the book "Manias, Panics, and Crashes".

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:22 | 4433834 Grande Tetons
Grande Tetons's picture

Mitch, first of all I commend you on such a bold choice of user name.  It truely does warrant more than a paper bag as avatar. 

I was thinking about the BTC high and AU low today...interesting....not sure it means fuck all...but it is interesting. 


Ty: No, that guy was Mitch Cumstein, my roommate. He's a good guy. Don't be obsessed with your desires, Danny. The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes, is not a flute. And a donut with no hole, is a danish'. Funny guy.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:32 | 4434104 Mitch Comestein
Mitch Comestein's picture

If you want to go further, the high in stocks was on the last trading day of the year.  The lows in bonds, silver, & gold were on the last trading day of the year.  Might not mean anything.  Maybe it has hints of 1989 Japan.  Someone on this the research and write an article about it.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:06 | 4433708 fuu
fuu's picture

It's funny watching you all turn into Max Fischer and Trav777 baiting the gold bugs after the peak.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433709 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

Gox has been on the outs for a long time. Anyone who still trades with them ignores their past. Most people I know have moved on to the other exchanges that have decent volume. I'm not surprised Mark is trying to defend his position, but he essentially ignored a protocol change that has been discussed for over a year - and now tries to make it look like it isn't his fault.

It is his fault.

Either he can get someone in there that understands the technology and step down, or watch as his exchange gets pummeled to irrelevance by others who know what they're doing. Glad Tyler put in the other charts, at least someone is looking at the bigger picture here. And yes victoria, Bitcoin goes DOWN and UP.

Unlike the shit-propped equities, amirite?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 16:58 | 4433710 imbtween
imbtween's picture

bullsih for doge! but seriously, who (who cares about cryptos) cares about mtgox?

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:04 | 4433730 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Nobody cares about Gox (except maybe those poor shits that will lose everything).

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:05 | 4433741 Rockatanski
Rockatanski's picture

agreed. people bitch about fiat and then go "all in" on crypto. WTF is the difference? at least with fiat you have something in your hand. cryto is even more smoke and mirrors and some teenage computer hack can rob you blind without peep.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:42 | 4433912 Saro
Saro's picture

"some teenage computer hack can rob you blind without peep."

As opposed to some teenager smashing your window and robbing you of your cash/gold?  If you can't protect it, someone will take it.  Same as it ever was.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:11 | 4434036 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Of course, but everyone knows how to lock a door, buy a gun, bar a window, buy an alarm, etc. 

If the same cannot be said for cc, and if the average John/Juan/Yuan is being counted on continued growth of Btc (for example), then you'd best facilitate that for him and pronto.  Luckily for cc, 95% of the world hasn't a clue (yet) what it is, and this blip on the radar won't need to fall into a memory hole.

Yes, I'm aware that douchestar wrote yesterday that he didn't give a fuck what the average Joe thinks.  Taking my cue from him, when important customers visited today I told them to go fuck themselves!  It's a brilliant business model; douchestar says so.

You've read my previous replies to you, and likely understand that I empathize with the ecosystem to a great extent, but my posts evince my skepticism, and at this point, however, I'm not donating a dime to the cause.  My crowdfunding $$ go elsewhere.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:55 | 4434191 Saro
Saro's picture

For what it's worth, I don't disagree: the ecosystem needs to be more user friendly.  I think it's making great strides, we just aren't there yet.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:33 | 4433876 BTCTalks
BTCTalks's picture

MFGox has cause not 1, not 2, not 3, but FIVE crashes dues to poor management.  This is just the latest incarnation of Goxing.  BTC has recovered and rallied everytime before, and I predict it will happen again.  Growing pains in a maturing market.

I am $500 bid, if anyone cares.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 18:28 | 4434073 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Everytime" is a bold and presently false statement.  The charts show a peak at ~ $1250 in Dec, then a drop to ~ $700, then a rally to ~ $1000, then another drop to ~ $580, then a rally back to $1000 end of Dec, and a steady decline ever since.

Its previous rallies required a few days.  It's had 6 weeks to move off that steady decline and it has yet to do so.  Sure, the last few days don't help, but the decline was still 6 weeks and continuing.  I wouldn't count on repeat business from everyone who's bailed on you.  Trying to entice them back with a slogan of, "We're pretty sure it's fixed now, and that at least for a while it might work" is honest but likely won't work.

"It's always done this before" is a common preface to pumper's statements, but in point of fact it's far more truthful to say, "It's never done this before."   The next poster that writes that they've "seen this pattern before" needs to have their head examined if they truly believe that.  Pattern????

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:01 | 4433714 Chaffinch
Chaffinch's picture

Off-topic perhaps but 1.38 m ounces silver left the Comex yesterday ; )

(if you believe their data)

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:06 | 4433725 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

LOL!  The tulips are wilting. 

I bet there were lots of bag holders... including phonystar

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:07 | 4433766 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar is BTFBitD moron.

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:15 | 4433800 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

big dip tomorrow for you to buy into.

tomorrow is the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre for cryptoTulips

Thu, 02/13/2014 - 17:23 | 4433846 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

donT believe me?


Just wait a couple hours til the Chinese wake up and see the price drop.



Why the negs?

i am just passing out a good tip: wait til the Asians wake up and panic sell, ... then buy their coins.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!