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Is Bitcoin Greatly Rotating Into Bullion?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

While correlation is not causation, the coincidental timing of the tumble in virtual currencies and the surge in physical (alternative) currencies suggests another great rotation may be occurring... with gold at fresh 3-month highs as Bitcoin presses 3-months lows...

 

 

While not surprising, the chart above also shows the massive collapse in Mt.Gox pricing as the world and their virtual pet rabbit run for the exits...

 

Gold is now up over 12% from the post-Taper lows...

 

and Silver is exploding higher... up 15.6% now in February alone.

 

Charts: Bloomberg and Bitcoinwisdom

 

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Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:18 | 4443717 max2205
max2205's picture

Should be a ton of comments on this one

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:21 | 4443731 fonestar
fonestar's picture

BITCOIN!!!!

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:26 | 4443754 fonestar
fonestar's picture

....and no, Bitcoiners are not converting bits to bullion.  This is just another boring 50% crashy thing we've seen many times before.  The timing is just coincidence.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:35 | 4443781 Croesus
Croesus's picture

Fonestar: 

I agree with this statement: "Bitcoiners are not converting bits to bullion"...

The Gold market is lead by the "top of the pyramid", not the bottom, and correlation doesn't equal causation. 

While the BTC crowd certainly did well for themselves, the amount of money that moves in BTC is nothing compared to the billions that move in Gold, each and every trading day. 

The LBMA alone, was clearing close to $10 Billion/day in trading volume, and that was 16 years' ago. It's only gotten larger since then, as bank-guaranteed contracts for Gold have been underwritten for years, on the back of metal that's no longer there, and not cost-effective to extract from the ground (currently). 

People should stop and ask:

Why is Gold such an opaque market? What is the big secret? Why is there such a need to disguise the dealings of a "small market", for a "barbaric relic that isn't important these days"? Why the international secrecy, involving central banks, governments, and other 'top-level people'? 

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:46 | 4443832 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, Bitcoin is small peanuts when compared to GLD.  Who cares?  Should that be a detrimental thing for Bitcoin?  fonestar sees that as being more of a bullish type thing.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:51 | 4443849 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Gold bitchez.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:53 | 4443862 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Gold is for 0lde Bitchez!

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:04 | 4443907 in4mayshun
in4mayshun's picture

Fone-, you remind me of Al Gore still defending man made global cooling, oops I mean warming.

Know when to shut up dude.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:33 | 4444001 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar never shuts up.  He is the Energizer bunny of Bitcoin trolls.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:17 | 4444114 X-defiler
X-defiler's picture

Bitcoin deciples are truely the lunitic fringe. Believe me, I would be the firs to jump on the band wagon of anything that truely represented honest money. But to think that this thing that is at the mercy of the internet is the second coming is truely wacky. I think fonestar has over stayed his welcome. 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:01 | 4444189 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It is about time the lunatic fringe had propotional representation.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:07 | 4444222 balanced
balanced's picture

PMs for storing wealth. Bitcoin for transactions.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:56 | 4444278 linniepar
linniepar's picture

I came. I speculated.  I made great gains. I rotated. I sleep soundly.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 03:46 | 4444393 Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Fuck me! gold's going to have to go up a lot to make up for those losses.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 04:18 | 4444421 foodisgood
foodisgood's picture

The TV show Shark Tank has investors.

This place is full of naggers who 'revert to the mean' or arbitrage a 'market' and mistakenly call gambling an investment.

A sucker and his $ is soon parted.

naggers who whine about bigger gamblers than them go to ZH. Any here with an idea of what investment is would be laughed at by a more honest MSM broadcasting a game show of 10x any investment advice here.

What ever joke of an idea that could come from a place so full of stolkholm syndrome from the tyler publisher who is 'invisible' cause he has no spine or ability to pay any real Cost is why YOU are a gotdamnedmutherfukinnaggerslave2$.

NO USURY ON CURRENCY CREATION

NO GOVERNMENT SHALL EVER BORROW

IAMSLATTERY

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 04:38 | 4444439 The Vineyard
The Vineyard's picture

The boys at Bitcoin flew too close to the sun.  Poor bastards.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 05:24 | 4444469 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Bitcoin is not money, it's software. 

It's too easy for other people to compete with BTC with alternative digital currencies, and for this reason, digital currencies are too easy to dilute.

 

Also I don't think it's possible to launch a new currency and have the original issue be so centrally held. People will not adopt a new currency if they think there are people within the system who are making very large profits simply from being an early adopter.

 

When the euro was launched there was nobody who "made a killing" by being at the front of the queue. Everyone got converted at the same time and at the same exchange rates. This is an extremely important measure and BTC simply does not have it. The fact that a small number of people made a fortune by speculating on Bitcoin is a big turn off for the wider population.

Because of this, 95% of people will refuse to BTFATH, and any such new currency will be rejected  just as Bitcoin is being rejected/shunned by people now. Funnily enough people don't like being the bagholder for speculators.

 

The best thing that could have happened for Bitcoin would have been that it stayed at $10. The fact that it shot the moon has destroyed it.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 07:45 | 4444539 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

 

Gold is the capstone of the pyramid.....bitcoins is what's underneath the outhouse.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 07:56 | 4444548 TheGoldMyth
TheGoldMyth's picture

GetZeeGold:  Actually, the pyramid you are talking about (Supporting) is mind bogglingly distance below the other pyramid upon which we all depend including central banks who create artifical scarcity of gold by buying it all just to excite gold bugs.

That pyramid is called a clean planet with a working ecosystem.

Your pyramid is worth less. In fact it has negative worth and turns everything it touches into Lead or much worse.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 07:48 | 4444541 Acet
Acet's picture

+1 This

Any scheme were there is some kind of token with no inherent value, were those who jumped earlier into the scheme hold more tokens and where the value of these tokens in exchange for money is larger the more adopters there are is in all definitions a pyramid scheme.

I don't care if you call it a digital currency or try to dazzle the techonologically naive with mentions of cryptography, distributed computing or Internet: Bitcoin is nothing more than a pyramid scheme with a networking component.

Note that even the behaviour of early adopters who try hard to get more people to join the scheme and who "sell" their idea to a large extent on the gains one can make by joining Bitcoin "before it goes up" is exactly the behaviour of members of a typical pyramid scheme.

The whole thing stunk years ago when I first heard about it and it still stinks.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:26 | 4444735 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

"Bitcoin is not money, it's software"

Actually I think of Bitcoin as the Thomas Kinkade of the digital world. At some point there's going to be thousands of crypto currencies and many will be worthless.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 11:26 | 4444830 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

But one will be legal tender!

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 14:54 | 4445293 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoins are money and everything else is bullshit.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 15:05 | 4445325 akak
akak's picture

Fonestar is definitely not money.

Ergo, ....

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 08:09 | 4444563 Byte Me
Byte Me's picture

It is about time the lunatic fringe had propotional representation.

Feeling disenfranchised??

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 16:32 | 4445540 giggler321
giggler321's picture

Percy created BTC in purest green expressed by one servant of Lord Black Addadder.  Remember the rainbow is full of color for you to choose along with a catchy name.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkZFuKHXa7w

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:19 | 4444120 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

3.2 volts, yeah, that's about right.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:22 | 4444126 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

You say a lot, but rarely anything that matters.  Not a word on the MASSIVE exchange rate differntial at Mt.Gox vs. other exhanges.  I would think you'd tackle that on top of the usual problems with BitCoins.  Mt.Gox, in particular, as an exhange, is basically shot all to hell.

Last trade on Gox: 284 as of this writing.

If you're going to act like a know-it-all troll, at least tell your legions of mindless followers to get their money out of Gox and into another exhange, if it isn't already too late.

 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:26 | 4444134 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Uh.. If you have been following fonestar's posts you would recall months ago he said he wouldn't go to Gox because of all the problems they've had.  MtGox is irrelevant now (except to idiots trying to use it as a sign Bitcoin is "crashing").  Nothing but good experiences so far on BTC-e but fonestar still wouldn't keep his coins on any exchange.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:40 | 4444168 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

DAYS ago, not months ago.  Gox's crash came as a complete surprise to you as it did to so many of the BTC faithful when Gox shut off the withdrawal taps.   Post up where you said it 2 months ago (the same timeframe where I DID post up selling out of BTC @ 865 on Gox during the parabolic upswing to over 1000) and I'll eat crow.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:42 | 4444175 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It came as a surprise to fonestar???  No it did not.. they suck and that was obvious to many a long time ago.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 03:04 | 4444341 Advoc8tr
Advoc8tr's picture

Yep ... they burned us all years ago and haven't trusted them since.  Gox price has diverged because no-one can get their fiat or BTC out.  It's the US banking regulations that have always been the bugbear and accounted for the long term arb.

I note California has a bill in progress to make it legal tender. If that succeeds then it will become a lot easier for mainstreamers to play.

http://www.coindesk.com/california-bill-bitcoin-lawful-money/

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 09:02 | 4444621 BTCTalks
BTCTalks's picture

No serious coiners have been trading on the Magic The Gathering Online Exchange (MtGox) in months. Some gambled (and lost) that they could take in a risk less 10% arb. Clearly, it was not risk less as MFGox had tinkered with the underlying and began operating in a fractional reserve capacity. Still others are buying on Gox as we speak gambling that to hey will begin making good on coins again - I am not one of those.

Furthermore, for those still doubting bitcoin, remember that bitcoin is just the first killer app on the blockchain. The blockchain is like TCP/IP and bitcoin is the first app built upon it. Of course there are going to be tweaks necessary (bitcoin isn't even walking yet in human terms). But saying bitcoin has failed because of a crash in the value of the first app is ridiculous. This is like talking about the internet in 1989 when it took 2 days to send an email and very few people used it. I'm sure there were plenty we of people decrying the new technology then as well. Just imagine if you had gotten in on it instead? At least this time, I won't be left wondering.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 15:28 | 4445388 sheikurbootie
sheikurbootie's picture

Buck Fitcoin and any other nonsense virtual money.  It's sad to see pathetic bridge buyers on ZH.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 16:23 | 4445510 fonestar
fonestar's picture

moron

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 09:48 | 4444686 Saro
Saro's picture

"Gox's crash came as a complete surprise to you as it did to so many."

False. Gox is a joke to the greater Bitcoin community; nothing those idiots do surprises us anymore.  Next week I'm betting that it will come out that they no longer have coins in their cold wallet to handle all their demand deposits and the whole thing will go bust.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:49 | 4444186 Dr. Venkman
Dr. Venkman's picture

Fonestar, brudda , link us to yer warnings or STFU. Please

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 14:23 | 4445207 frankthomaswhite59
frankthomaswhite59's picture

@ 4444001 fonestar

So you admit that

you're a troll

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 14:55 | 4445295 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar will neither confirm nor deny anything.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 15:12 | 4445341 frankthomaswhite59
frankthomaswhite59's picture

4444001 fonestar


fonestar never shuts up.  He is the Energizer bunny of Bitcoin trolls.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:34 | 4444969 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

It's like saying your 4 year old is going to be president some day.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:09 | 4443922 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I'm old.  But, gold and BTC complement each other.

Gold might be better for old & rich bitchez!

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:16 | 4444113 fonestar
fonestar's picture

As well as overtly sentimental people stuck in the past and averse to the simple fact that time still moves... forward.  People often wonder why fonestar refers to himself in the third person, it is not only because he is managed by a PAL but also a hat-tip to the fact that the Bitcoin network (now the world's most powerful network) is greater than our own selves.  The blockchain is boldly forging a new Bitstandard and pulling the luddites by the nose into the future.

There is no I in Bitcoin.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:27 | 4444140 akak
akak's picture

Please go play in traffic.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:13 | 4444237 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

There's no coin in bitcoin.

 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 02:02 | 4444283 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

there is a c, an o, and an n in bitcoin.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 04:30 | 4444431 foodisgood
foodisgood's picture

Time moves forward... so does that mean that gold does not and bitcon does?

Does that mean gold will vaporize and go to zero when the power goes out?

And the blockchain will be able to make it so transactions are not recorded into every wallet so forward folks will never have backward governments on the purchasing power?

Fonestarring fucktard is so smelly as the boytoy of the invisibly spineless tyler who is all about naggerdom.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 14:58 | 4445303 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar does not read your posts, but he does junk you.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 11:30 | 4444836 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

There is no I in Bitcoin

Which makes it Bt Con. Real clever.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 14:57 | 4445298 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Well whatever, maybe it does have an I.

 

JUST BUY BITCOIN!!

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 14:26 | 4445229 frankthomaswhite59
Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:34 | 4443945 Dick Buttkiss
Dick Buttkiss's picture

You know I'm with you, fonestar, but precious metals are complementary to, not competitive with, Bitcoin (and cryptos in general).

As for fiat, it would be the enemy if it had to be fought, which it doesn't. Rather, fiat must simply be tolerated until it self-destructs, PMs standing behind cryptos as a second line of defense amid the latter's money and banking revolution.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:38 | 4444020 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Well according to the local idiots here you cannot own both Bitcoin and Gold.  It is proven to be impossible.  And if a person did buy Bitcoin they would be forced to put their entire life savings into it.  That has also been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:07 | 4444219 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

I'll take my chances with the heavy stuff I can hold in my hand.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:24 | 4444251 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar does not take chances, he goes with statistical probabilities.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 04:34 | 4444436 foodisgood
foodisgood's picture

Is that cause FukStard will never be able to hold Trust in his hand or has refused to pay the Cost of only Real Capital coming from the fruit of Labor?

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:14 | 4444911 Au_Ag_CuPbCu
Au_Ag_CuPbCu's picture

So what is the statistical probability for the survival of a completely non-backed, zero intrinsic valued currency?

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:36 | 4444975 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

You can own styrofoam anfd gold, also.

I see the "future value" of styrofoam being greater than Bitcoin.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:56 | 4443871 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

Another thread polluted by the ZH virtual gambler.  MDB's comments are all but forgotten.  TY foney.

 

 

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:57 | 4443880 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Nope came to a Bitcoin thread.  Was suprised to meet the fonestar?

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:19 | 4443904 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

No, came to a bigcoin thread to see how many will call you out for leading them down a rabbit hole of 52% losses so far since Nov.  Anyone willing to admit how much they've lost following the 32 yr old virtual gambler from Canada?

You bitcoiners are truly stupid to believe that a virtual currency could compete and gain international widespread recognition in light of the current currency wars in play.  The USD as reserve is a matter of National Defense.  It will be defended at all costs, any competitor killed and violated.  Any nation who violates the petro dollar policy will be invaded.  That policy is real.  Now enter computer geeks with a P2P way of bypassing Wall Street, assuming the NSA did not have a hand in its creation.  Good F'n luck.  We're not talking Britney downloads here.

But hey, what do I know.  Looks like a good time to double down and cost average that awesome investment......

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:24 | 4443960 BlackMagician
BlackMagician's picture

How felt reading your reply...you were like Hans Guber

Oh, my God! The quarterback (Fonestar) is toast!

Hang on, Rivers. That's an order.

Hit it again.

All right, you motherfucker, you made your point!

Let them pull back

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:40 | 4444026 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar thinks this would be a great time for those on the sidelines to get those CheapCoins now!!

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:18 | 4444245 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

Can you buy them for the (currently) $278 Mt Gox price? Or are they only selling at the $600, $700 exchanges?

 

 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:26 | 4444254 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Again, nobody gives a shit about MtGox prices.  They've been discredited already, meanwhile stackers still referencing COMEX price daily...

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:40 | 4444266 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

If your buying your interested in the Mt Gox price.

If your selling your not.

 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:43 | 4444269 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Nobody is buying at those prices because it's a (soon to be) dead exchange.  Again, only the drooling Bitcoin haters are referencing Gox.  It isn't even news on the other exchanges.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:48 | 4444271 RideTheWalrus
RideTheWalrus's picture

Which exchange has the correct price today?

 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:55 | 4444275 fonestar
fonestar's picture

BTC-e and Bitstamp are the correct prices.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 03:41 | 4444388 JustUsChickensHere
JustUsChickensHere's picture

www.bitcoinaverage.com has the 'right' price - a global weighted average in any national fiat you care to inquire about. Drill down for the details of the multiple exchanges that are referenced, or ignored.

Some exchanges are deliberately ignored (like MtGox) for a variety of reasons, and the reasons are given in each case.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 03:16 | 4444354 Advoc8tr
Advoc8tr's picture

The sole reason for the price discrepancy is that you can't get BTC or FIAT out of Mt Gox. Do NOT put any money into MtGox.  It is midway through vanishing as FS has pointed out. As I understand it it is your (US) government that has fucked Gox via currently secret law-suits and confiscations. The reported technical issues are a smokescreen.

BTCe, Bitstamp, Coinjar (here in Oz) are all reflecting the actual trading price with no reported problems / delays in deposits or withdrawals.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:18 | 4443942 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Croesus, Fonestar, guys you're on the SAME side, if you stop and think about it, since you're BOTH "Enemies of Fiat".  Please don't fall for the D&C (Divide & Conquer, not Dilation & Curetage), unless you're determined to do so.  ;-)

Time to bury the axe (for tactical reasons) and cheer for each other.  Anything that takes fiat out of circulation and puts it into PM bullion or Cyber-Currencies is a "GOOD" thing.

Cheers.

p.s. I wish that the Tylers would come to the same logical and truthful realization -- instead of shilling for PM and milking site visit stats for anything to do with Bitcoin, which is my considered impression.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:27 | 4443976 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

That makes four of us on the same side Cap'n.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 14:35 | 4445252 frankthomaswhite59
frankthomaswhite59's picture

do you have 10% of your

savings in bitcoin?

as a store of wealth?

bitcoin is used to buy stuff

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:55 | 4444200 Dr. Venkman
Dr. Venkman's picture

Kirk -- I know you were here when Tyler's we're being accused of pumping BTC nary a months/years ago (could it have been that long) . . . . Let's just see where this goes. Until then, gold and silver control. IMO.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:31 | 4444144 vie
vie's picture

This article is idiotic.  The fact that two exchanges have such a huge spread should tell you it has nothing to do with gold.

1) Gold is manipulated.  If it was going up for any reason than TPTB wanted it to go up, it wouldn't go up, no mater how many people took their Bitcoins and bought Gold.  

2) Bitcoins dropped due to DDOSes taking advantage in a known issue, keeping people from withdrawing bitcoins from the exchanges.

ps. I hear global climate change is caused by too few pirates... 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 12:18 | 4444835 Genetic
Genetic's picture

This reply is not about Bit coin. But I felt the need to reply to your questions. I think that any attempt to understand and predict these markets by the numbers the results would then be implausible!

Why is Gold such an opaque market? What is the big secret? Why is there such a need to disguise the dealings of a "small market", for a "barbaric relic that isn't important these days"? Why the international secrecy, involving central banks, governments, and other 'top-level people'? 

 

   With all due respect I must say, that if you must ask these questions you have not been paying attention. There is a crime in progress! When was the last time you remember a report on the news, that a bank will be robbed at 12:45 this afternoon? The big secret maybe to some that, "people who do the crimes like to keep a low profile. Forgive me but I really don't understand what you mean when you say " disguise the dealings of a "small market" If you don't want to think of gold as money then just think of it as a commodity. As with all commodity work must be expended in order for it's production. If commodities are not money then there is and never was anything call money! (Please don't get it twisted currency is NOT money.).

   In America slavery is againts the law. But you are free to volunteer to be a slave (check the constitution and what it says about slavery). So if you want to work for the people who make up bits of paper or bits on a computer, this is America and you are free to do so. As for your last question the crime is international so the cover-up must also be international. In 1933 there was a disclaimer on our money, In that statement it read in part that the bill that you were holding was redeemable in lawful money! So if the currency was not lawful money what was? Oh that's right it was that barbaric relic! I humbly request that you take a small portion of your time and listen to this short story on our money   (10:31) Challenge your convictions, or they will challange you!

Men (and women) lose their minds in herds, But they regain them one by one!

 

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:35 | 4443782 greggh99
greggh99's picture

Yup. No reason to believe there's any relationship. Besides, the bitcoin market is tiny. Even if money from it was flowing into PMs it would be so tiny it wouldn't make a bit of difference. Some of these ZH articles are just silly.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:53 | 4443858 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

More than anything the timing of these market moves shows that in times of economic uncertainty gold dominates and bitcoin falls.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:54 | 4443865 fonestar
fonestar's picture

It will reverse soon enough.  Fear not.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:04 | 4443905 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

I haven't seen you post more than your opinion.  How about you stop trolling.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:41 | 4444030 fonestar
fonestar's picture

How about no?

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:50 | 4444059 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

No you won't post more than your opinion?  No there is no value in investing in bitcoins because they are some made up way to exchange debt into a fiat currency?  Or no you have nothing but your worthless ass opinion to post on the world's most popular economic forum?

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:58 | 4444075 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Do you really believe the opions of a virtual man who has achieved Satoshi conciousness are "worthless"?

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:23 | 4444128 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

"The lady doth protest to much, methinks" - William Shakespeare 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:28 | 4444143 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar thought he made you go away?  Has already carved a notch in his BitshitRPG Launcher for another Zerohead poster gone.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 07:26 | 4444523 negative rates
negative rates's picture

How many peas can you stuff into a pod? The answer is we don't need or care to know. 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:28 | 4444142 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Bitcoiniac propaganda is getting cheaper by the day as weird as it can sound.

It is a patchwork of non sense. It mixes everything and all.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:30 | 4444148 fonestar
fonestar's picture

As the price of Bitcoin declines it becomes easier and cheaper for us to export our Bitcoiniac propaganda.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:35 | 4443790 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

.

This is just another boring 50% crashy thing we've seen many times before.

What do we have here? Nothing. Save a bitcoins propagandator creating his own context to propagate, comorbid with confusion due to the total propagandic immersion.

The timing is just coincidence.

A worthless nonsense that brings nothing to analysis, other than trying to bambuzzle cheaply.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:58 | 4443887 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bamboozlement is just like any other virtual commodity, buy low and dump high.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:27 | 4443977 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Because of what ground is this assumption made?

What a rewrite. Another one pony trick obvious even to the hobbos freezing on the streets, like a brown marmorated stink bug.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:32 | 4444153 akak
akak's picture

Ah, in previous poster we see the parangong of US 'american' bitcoinism, blobbing-up the insanitational means and monolizing the restardation of the imaginary cybercurrency means.  Best yet, made me laugh.

But hey, when the trolls come out of the woodworking, no sense in not letting them force the blame of them to the exterior.  Same US 'american' bitcoinism song and dancing, to the looney tune.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:42 | 4444176 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Bitcoiniacs have come to deny the most obvious. Even denial as a process is reaching the negative return thingie.

It is funny how ideologues love to side track a topic to avoid facing the facts related to it.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:41 | 4443811 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Honestly, I see no difference in investing in gold or bitcoin or stocks.

They are all B.S. in the end their value is dictated by a virtual exchange of pretend "bits/coins/oz/shares" or "units".

 

Shares in a company do not guarentee you shares in the profits, (unless offering dividends).

Thus a share in a company that does not offer dividends is the same thing as people buying Bitcoins..... its a "unit" to invest in.

Why should anyone buy a share in a company over a few bitcoins? those shares will only go up for the reason a bitcoin can go up (someone else buying it from you higher than you paid for it).

 

Thus Shares in companies are complete bullshit.... buying a share in Apple is like buying "apple coin" and waiting for someone else to come buy that "apple coin" from you for a profit.

So your stock market is fake.

Gold is also fake, the only difference is the stock is supposed to be pegged to physical supply, but its not, so the stock price is again bullshit, and to those that tell you "if the paper price was eliminated gold would trade higher" are dumb, because without the physical volume of transfers the "paper" creates no one would be buying gold or moving it around and the price would drop due to "lack of demand".

 

So what did we learn?

 

All value is based off of DEMAND VOLUME for a VIRTUAL DIGIT REPRSENATION of an Asset, the underlying value of the asset in question is NOT IMPORTANT and in-fact it is the least important thing about the "share unit" of whatever you are trading.

 

 

The number one source of value is what someone is willing to pay to buy something, if that someone has no access to the market volume will drop and price will go down as sellers struggle to find buyers....  (that would happen without paper markets/digital markets).....

 

So the market IS THE ASSET, not the "asset itself" as the MARKETPLACE BRINGS MOST OF THE VALUE TO THE TRADED ASSETS ! and creates a false impression of "value".

 

Trade tit-for-tat and move along, all asset classes even gold derive their value from fairy-tales.

 

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:49 | 4443843 fonestar
fonestar's picture

That was a big post.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:53 | 4443860 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Actually didn't get to finish it, wanted to add something

In short....

The value of an asset is derived from volume demand and interest, gold, bitcoins, stocks have no value, even "physical gold" trades above its value thanks to the VOLUME paper speculation drives to the game, and if paper volume disappeared a gold coin would essentially drop in value atleast 50% due the difficulty sellers will have in finding buyers.

 

So the only real investment vehicle is in-itself the actual market place that produces the volume.

Bitcoin can benefit off this, because in essence that is all that bitcoin is .... a market, its not a coin or a stock, the term "coin" is just there as a marketing angle, its a ledger tied to a market, the most efficient market in the world because every minute of every-day bitcoins trade at their "true value" because their "true value IS THE MARKET PLACE IT CREATES".

 

 

What other asset class CREATED ITS OWN MARKET FROM NOTHING? AND IS THE INTEGRAL UNIT OF THAT MARKET PLACE?

Almost no asset can say that, and that is why bitcoin is a success and will continue to be a success.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:55 | 4443870 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes!!

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:56 | 4443875 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Do you write just to read your own writing?  If that is the case keep it on paper and stop wasting your time here on ZH.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:58 | 4443885 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

I write whatever the fuck I want, where I want and when I want to piss off ... whoever I want.

 

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:59 | 4443891 fonestar
fonestar's picture

+1000.  That's the cryptoanarchist spirit right there!

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:07 | 4443917 in4mayshun
in4mayshun's picture

You and your girlfriend should get a room.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:01 | 4443902 acetinker
acetinker's picture

Damn glad to (almost) know ya',dre4dwolf!

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:05 | 4443911 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

I don't think you are pissing anyone off, you're not a good enough writer to do so.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 04:58 | 4444456 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

you must be a clown, cause you make me laugh.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:08 | 4443919 WSMassiv
WSMassiv's picture

So...... people are the most important thing.... and markets are people.... 


I guess education has to start somewhere...

 

You better sharpen up, late stages are approaching.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:35 | 4444007 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

The market is not JUST people.

People make up the market sure, but the market is a system or a design scheme people use to transact.

The market is an exchange mechanism (as a thing or place).

"People go to the market square" because everyone knows to go there to do business in an efficient manner, as doing business outside the market is considered risky, since everyone at the market usually has been there for a while and has earned a certain reputation (dont go eat there, their food sucks) etc.

 

People simply use the market and the market derives its value from the volume of people using it to do business, gold will only trade this high, so long as it has a market place (paper trade), the paper market is a two edged sword for gold.

1) Everyone knows more or less there is more paper out there than gold.

2) Without the volume the paper market brings to the table, gold would essentially be worth "whatever is worth" to the person you are trying to do business with.

 

A good example would be if the world ended and you wanted to trade your gold watch to someone who is selling food, at that point the food is more important than the gold and the seller knows this, so you will essentially trade your gold watch for a 5$ foot long.

 

If it ever gets that bad, ill be fine, last thing I need is gold to survive, and in-fact I might do better without the heavy pockets slowing me down.

 

 

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:54 | 4443866 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

No, gold is real.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:55 | 4443872 fonestar
fonestar's picture

If your gold has not received three confirmations on the blockchain it is not real.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:59 | 4443893 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Gold is used as money because it is a tangible finite resource.

Bitcoin is a flash in the pan, gold is what you get after a long hard days work panning.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:20 | 4443949 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Where is gold used as money?

Because as it stands, i can spend bitcoins on Overstock and a few other places to get real things.

Where can I spend gold online to buy products? Where is the market place?

And how can I send my gold to said retailer safely and quickly without waiting two weeks to get my stuff?

Gold sucks and Fails as a currency, because in the end, its only spendable in your immediate area peer to peer for whatever is available at that time, and the exchange rate is fail because you will always sell gold at a discount to spot to get any FIAT or GOODS because someone is going to CHARGE YOU THE COST OF CONVERSION.

 

Bitcoins cost of conversion is always and will always be around or less than 1%.

 

The bitcoin marketplace is slowly growing, it would be stupid to completely ignore it out of principle and nostalgia for gold.

 

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:40 | 4444022 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Gold is on the Fed balance sheet, and all central bank balance sheets, as an asset.  They swap it everyday to negotiate loans.  

China would not be purchasing UST debt if they couldn't lease the Fed's gold.

There have been countless world leaders who have come out to back a gold world reserve currency, from Medvedev to Sarkozy.

And gold has been used as money for thousands of years.  Just because FDR and Nixon dictated its restraint does not mean it isn't used as money.

Thousands of years vs a few decades, bitchez.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 04:54 | 4444453 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Gold has no place in the future as a currency, its clear to see.

Banks keep gold on their balance sheet?

Where ? next to the massive pile of horse shit they stockpiled in-case fertilizer ever went to 900$ an oz? since when does anyone care what central banks do? to me the central banks have been decaying carcasses of a barbaric era for the past year atleast........nothing they do actually matters anymore, they are part of a dead system......... we are rolling over to Economy 2.0, thats plain as day to see........ and none of the signs point to gold as being the means of exchange in that economy.....none.

Its bullshit, we are in the freaking INFORMATION AGE/SPACE AGE not the freaking stone-age......... gold has no place in a modern economy as a "currency" or "means of exchange" its too slow and cumbersome to keep up with modern transactions.

Digital Currency IS the future, now you can get on-board or you can sit there clinging to your shiny ore like a smeagol from lord of the rings.

And note, im not saying gold and silver won't do well when the panic sets in, sure it might be great to hold some silver/gold......but to out-right dismiss a digital currency system that is truly free market would be stupid.......... even if bitcoin has a 15% chance of success its only ever taken about 10 ~ 20% of the population to adopt something new for the rest to fall in-line...... the majority of the people are followers, all they need to see is business taking place in a currency to start using it................. no one starts using bitcoin and then stops using it.....because its too easy and fast to use.......... say for any old-farts over 65 they are just not good enough with tech to really use anything other than a toaster.... but they are not the future of the economy, we are (people aged 1~ 40) I would say 1~30, but a lot of 40 year olds I know kinda got the hang of it.... hell I have taught 50 year olds + how to use bitcoin and they love it.

And yes, a president did sever the U.S. Dollars ties with gold, you know why? because GOLD NEVER BACKED DOLLARS EVER, it was a confidence scam from the GET-GO!!!!!!! no one even used gold as a means of exchange EVEN WHEN IT WAS THE STANDARD everyone (atleast the majority) always used redemption bills (dollars) and never went in to claim the gold...... why? because holding 20 oz of silver or gold in your pocket kept making peoples pants fall down, not to mention it would rattle in your pocket announcing to the world that you have a few bucks on you "HEY ROBBERS COME ROB ME BECAUSE I CLING LIKE A FUCKING CHURCH BELL!!!)

 

The Paper DOLLARS WERE GIVEN VALUE BECAUSE OF THEIR EASE OF USE.

And as such

Bitcoins will hold value, due their CONVENIENCE.

 

You will always have a boom and bust cycle when something new comes along, the bitcoin crashes as of late are going to be but a minor foot-note in history, nothing more than an infinitesimally small dip in the chart.

 

As always evolve or be left behind.

 

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 14:07 | 4445172 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

What a load of rubbish. Pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about concerning gold.

Tue, 02/18/2014 - 00:36 | 4446938 PN7
PN7's picture

As an "old fart" 75 years of age, I am pretty good with the technology and I am also keen on Bitcoin.  Bitcoin may not do me a great deal of good personally, but it is a significant part of my legacy to my kids and grandkids. (about 10%).  I am also leaving them PMs, and signed first--editions etc.  And even some fiat money!

So, besides having value as a medium of transactions, I find that bitcoin is also a smart store of value.  Any old-timers like me out there would do well to buy a coin or two and pass them along to their kids.

p.s. You write really well for a young punk

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 11:57 | 4444886 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

"Where is gold used as money?"

Utah, for one.  I think Az and Tx also have that in the works.

And if you dont think EVERYTHING in the world of 1s and 0s can be hacked one way or another, including bitcoin, well then I've some bitcoin to sell you.

And while you're yammering about the "price of conversion", why doncha tell us where you get the best "conversion price" on bitcoin, because apparently you and fuckstar aren't real fond of MtGox any more.  Conversion price not so good?  Yikes!

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:44 | 4444043 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Gold is used as money because it is a tangible finite resource.

Correction.... gold was used as money.  And what is your guys fixation with this "hard work" bullshit?  Wouldn't you rather sit on your ass and make way more than some dumb miner or farmer?

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:54 | 4444067 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Dumb farmer?  You have outdone yourself.  Farming is hard work.  I know.

Go sit on your ass in front of a screen and watch Keiser yell like the parrot from Alladin and pretend like you will become rich trading bitcoins like people pretend they are the gods of the universe while they play World of Warcraft.

You are living a lie, as most people are.  I guess maybe I should tell you to enjoy it while it lasts.

I won't.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:03 | 4444088 fonestar
fonestar's picture

After the crack-up Bitboom those farmers are going to be coming to fonestar with all their worthless carrots and cucumbers trying to get some bits off ol' fonestar and he is going to chase them right off his virtual land.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 04:32 | 4444433 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Let them eat bitcoins!

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 03:25 | 4444362 Advoc8tr
Advoc8tr's picture

+1

Wouldn't you rather sit on your ass and make way more

I know I would ... fucking bankers have been doing it for eons.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 04:39 | 4444440 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

"Hard work" he worked hard to lift those whole 10 oz of gold coins into his safe, now he has to work hard sitting on his ass, with a hope and a prayer that they go to 1,000,000$ an oz to "get rich" /pffffft "hard work" mining, if anything I spend more hours setting up new mining hardware than most of these people ever spent actually doing anything.

An activity doesn't have to be back breaking work to be profitable, Wall-Street has proven that time and time again, no one on that block does a damned thing useful for society yet there they are making billions doing nothing.

 

The days of "hard-work" are over, welcome to the new economy, you gamble your way to your top, grab your chips and go, all the idiots doing the hard work will lose their shirt because they are too pre-occupied to run the numbers.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:53 | 4444777 Woodhippie
Woodhippie's picture

A big fuck you from all of us farmers!

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 13:42 | 4445098 Genetic
Genetic's picture

The problem as I see it is that, the matrix has you! What do I mean by that? Wall street has you thinking that everything is an investment. And if everything is an investment, then money is also an investment. But money is not an investment it is a store of value. I can agree that buying shares in companies that are not offering dividends is complete bullshit and it is also a big part of the matrix of stocks. (ie Its not real)

Gold is also fake (Reality control they call it. In newspeak Doublethink-1984)
In the matrix paper is gold. "if the paper price was eliminated gold would trade higher" that is a statement from someone still in the matrix. Gold is gold and paper is paper. Check the periodic table if you don't believe me.

All value is based off of DEMAND VOLUME (In the Matrix this is so)
All stock market value is based off on the damands of that market.

The number one source of value is what someone is willing to pay to buy something. This is very true the thing is in the real world (unlike the matrix)
most people are not buying 24 hours a day. some of us don't buy things for many weeks. What we do in the real world is store our value just like an ant, or a dog when he digs a hole for his bone (which is of value to him) to be used at a later date.

MARKETPLACE BRINGS MOST OF THE VALUE TO THE TRADED ASSETS !

If I make a trade with someone without the market, is there less value to the trade between me and the person with whom I made the trade? But I would agree that fair market are a value of themself. But it has no affect on the value of the trade! The problem with bitcoin is that the root of bit-coin is not in a fair market. The root is the same as fiat from the stand point of the work that is being represented by the bit coin. please visit my short post.

Bit Coin A Conspiratorial View
Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:55 | 4443869 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

I have been migrating bitcoin into bullion for two months. I have been promoting this since November.

But everyone is a one trick pony. I am amazed the the "investors" who can't see past their noses.

SPY to BTC to gold

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:06 | 4443913 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

I converted my Bitcoins to physical Gold. I purchased 100 Bitcoins for $100 in March of 2011. At $800 per Bitcoin I traded all 100 for physical Gold which has been delivered. Agoracommodities accepts Bitcoin.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:31 | 4443990 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1  Thanks for the link.  That makes at least four suppliers of gold & silver who will take BTC.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:44 | 4444041 TheHound73
Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:51 | 4444192 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Excellent, five now!

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 18:32 | 4445937 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

@fonestar

Yep, another gold pumper thread with Bitcoin attached. Oh hi ZH, was that you peeking over my shoulder just now? Anyway, I see that the barking seal trolls have problems understanding that there's more than ONE exchange for Bitcoin. Of course we told them Gox was a piece of shit, but hey, who needs facts when they're busy fluffing a fellow prepper with their gold-polishing rag while reading ZH?

The hilarious thing about it is, it will be another clueless "Bitcoin is Dead" moment, made up and siezed upon by all of the people who barely understand the technology. Should be amusing after Gox dies, and all the other exchanges are just fine -- to see how they explain themselves afterward.

"Well, I didn't mean it was TOTALLY dead... I uh, er.... I have to go back to my bunker now..."

Yeah, what a joke.

So, from the recent price action on the REAL exchanges, like Bitstamp - that we're still working off the recent arc lower. I expect this to take until near the end of February, and perhaps by mid-March we'll pick it up again and start working out of the base we have here in the 550 to 680 range.

This isn't a surprise to you fonestar, of course. We always take a bit of a 'breather' after a decline like we had in December 2013. Best estimates now are the cycle will be shorter, so the recovery should begin in the Spring versus later on.

Have a good one fonestar, and don't let the idiots get to you - they have little else to do but wish for the world to burn.

 

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:28 | 4443760 derek_vineyard
derek_vineyard's picture

fone---they have internet in the suicide watch unit of a locked facility?  why not?  hurts to buy something (worthless) at $1200

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:39 | 4443786 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar can think of many things that aren't bananas that are totally worthless to stupid apes.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:39 | 4443803 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Most bitcoiners are too deluded and underwater on this scam to do anything but keep buying (and telling others to buy in).

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:40 | 4443804 fonestar
fonestar's picture

We are convinced of our victory and are here in advance to let others know.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:42 | 4443815 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Propagandists have grown so imbued with themselves they want to believe themselves able to cover up for anything.

But the story of everybody's got some shit on their doorstep, waoooo...

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:05 | 4444215 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

"so you're say'n theres a chance!"

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:46 | 4443829 devo
devo's picture

scam

Key word. If you look up pryamind scheme structure, it has every element. Gold bugs like Mike Maloney are delusional, too. Trading ounces for homes. Ain't gonna happen. BUT, gold should rise, just not to those levels. BTC should fall. BTC adopters are hoping Wall St packages it into an ETF so they can dump it for dollars. That says it all right there.

And of course, nobody knows shit in this environment, but that's what seems most likely.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:15 | 4443937 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Gold will be used to solve what will be the "Great Debt Crisis".  Gold will need to rise above $25,000 to do so.  What will drive the price of bitcoin?  Overstock.com orders of a bunch of worthless crap?

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:32 | 4443998 devo
devo's picture

Possibly, but I'd be worried about taxes in that scenario.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:42 | 4444034 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Just don't trade it when they revalue it, wait a few years, and let the governments crumble.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 00:52 | 4444194 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Yes.  Word.

"Wait"

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 10:50 | 4444770 Woodhippie
Woodhippie's picture

I think Maloney's point is that he will flip from PMs when way over bought and move into real estate, then flip back when that is over bought.  Shows he's not just a "gold bug".  He feels it is very under valued and that's when you buy.  Makes sense to me.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 03:28 | 4444367 Advoc8tr
Advoc8tr's picture

Long John just reported an 800% return and is now sitting on the shiny stuff ??

 

"I converted my Bitcoins to physical Gold. I purchased 100 Bitcoins for $100 in March of 2011. At $800 per Bitcoin I traded all 100 for physical Gold which has been delivered. Agoracommodities accepts Bitcoin."

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:28 | 4443762 LMAOLORI
Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:32 | 4443775 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar has been watching Shitminds on Zerohedge lose since $16 Bitcoin!  Haha.... (losers)

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:49 | 4443842 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

Have you convinced your mom to pay you your allowance in BTC yet?

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 23:00 | 4443895 fonestar
fonestar's picture

She does have a QT client but no BTC in it yet.

Mon, 02/17/2014 - 01:08 | 4444221 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

prostitutes accept bitcoin in Canada now!? 

well shit sign me up fonestar!

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:32 | 4443778 Droel
Droel's picture

I was wondering if Bitcoin was converting into Gold also since they started the buy/sell cycle around the same time.  This article makes sense.

Sun, 02/16/2014 - 22:36 | 4443787 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture

Shitcoin is done.   Russia and China are now cracking down hard.   Regardless of the reason, the truth is that shitcoin is predicated off of the ponzi fiatscos.  Add in the fact that their are now denial of service issues and it is clear:  adios shitcoin, we hardly got scammed...

 

Buy physical pms and get peace of mind.

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