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Meanwhile In Non-Pro-Europe Ukraine

Tyler Durden's picture


The bad feelings concerning Russia run deep in the Western parts of Ukraine (as they topple statues of Lenin in growing numbers) while in the East they see themselves much more as Russians. These feelings run very deep in the region and memories do not fade so easily as the mayor and police chief of Kerch vigorously defend the Ukrainian flag in the clip below - deep in the eastern Crimea region (that Russia has already suggested it is willing to go to war over). Russian President Vladimir Putin has now been placed in a very difficult position, as Martin Armstrong notes, the entire set of circumstances creates the image of events in Ukraine that have diminished the power of Russia, which is a matter of pride and the only stable resolution remains a split along the language faultline. The critical question then is - will Putin let it go?


In the west they are toppling Lenin statues en masse



But in the East, the mayor and city officials in Kerch, Crimea defend the Ukrainian flag...


The big question- of course - will Putin let it go? (via Martin Armstrong),

Russian President Vladimir Putin has now been placed in a very difficult position. As the protesters in Ukraine gathered the support of the police against the mercenaries, they turned the tide of politics for the moment. Putin’s Sochi Olympic moment has been overshadowed by the bloody mess in neighboring Ukraine thanks to the insanity of Yanukovich trying to oppress the people as in the old days. Yanukovich has demonstrated that ultimate power always corrupts ultimately. There must be checks and balances.

The entire set of circumstances creates the image of events in Ukraine that have diminished the power of Russia, which is a matter of pride. The situation may appear that it is slipping out of control and Russia will just walk away. Indeed, it’s hard to imagine that Putin will just walk away and leave Ukraine to its own devices. There is political pride that is at stake here and Putin said in 2005 that the fall of the Soviet Union was “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe” of the 20th century. Putin’s view of this is not economic, but only political. From that perspective, we must understand that if the USA split apart as was the case with the Civil War, there is a sense that a loss of prestige and power will engulf the nation unless the lost portion is regained.

There are lessons from history on this point to demonstrate this is not my personal opinion. Take the Roman Emperor Aurelian (270–275 AD) who fought to regain the European portion that separated from Rome known as the Gallic Empire and in the East defeated Zenobia who established the Empire of Palmyra. Putin’s desire to retake the former nations that were part of the Soviet Union is in accordance with history and would be an exception if it were not true.  Therefore, to allow Ukraine to slip out of Russia’s orbit would make Putin no better than Mikhail Gorbachev, who presided over the Soviet empire’s dissolution in 1991 and allowed the very thing he sees as a great geopolitical catastrophe.

There can be no question that Putin wants Ukraine to join Russia’s economic attempt to create the offset to the EU with his Customs Union that includes Belarus, Kazakhstan, and soon, Armenia. The Customs Union is his counter economic response to the European Union’s much larger trading bloc. On this score, economics is the battleground.

It is true that only after Yanukovych broke off with the EU moving away from a European Union integration accord last November and chose Russia instead that the protests began in Ukraine. Putin applied pressure and Yanukovych responded taking the nation toward the Customs Union rather than the EU that would have no doubt curtailed trade to a large extent and reduced the prospect for greater entrepreneurship in Ukraine. The emergence of small business in Ukraine does not match the oligarchy monopolies inside the Russian economic model. However, this was more the straw that broke the camel’s back than the spark that ignited the revolution.

I have explained in the Cycles of War that Russia and Ukraine have deep historical links dating back to the Kievan Rus, from whom the very word “Russia” emerges. They were the days of the 11th and 12th centuries and they are traditionally seen as the beginning of Russia and the ancestor of Belarus and Ukraine. Kiev was the first real capital of Russia before Moscow. Therefore, we have a mother-country complex involved as well.

According to the Russian business daily Kommersant, they cited a source in a NATO country’s delegation back in 2008 that reported Putin had told President George W. Bush: “You understand, George, that Ukraine isn’t even a state.” Indeed, Ukraine has been the real mother-country to Russia for most of the last 900 years prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. Certainly, parts of what is now called Ukraine have been controlled by many various countries as the borders have constantly change including Poland, Lithuania, the Khanate of Crimea, Austria-Hungary, Germany, in addition to Russia. Putin has often referred to Ukraine as “little Russia.” So clearly, there are serious issues here that warn that the immediate result in Ukraine may not yet be permanent independence. I have suggested that Ukraine split along the language faultline BECAUSE history warns that Russia is not likely to simply fade into the night. This is the ONLY solution that may allow Ukrainian independence and Russia to maintain its pride.

Strategically, Crimea, the southern part of Ukraine on the Black Sea, was part of Russia until 1954. At that time, Crimea was given to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet, supposedly to strengthen brotherly ties. However, the majority of the population were Russian – not Ukrainian! Therein lies part of the problem. This “gift” of Crimea to Ukraine would be like the USA giving Texas to Mexico and Texans would suddenly all be Mexican. Would they “feel” Mexican or American?

There is also Russia’s Black Sea Fleet that is headquartered in the Crimean city of Sevastopol, which is less than 200 miles northwest of Sochi where the Olympic Games are being held. It is hard to imagine that the Ukrainian government could even end that lease without major consequences. Russia would no doubt be forced to move its headquarters east to Novorossiysk, yet this will have a serious geopolitical loss of face. Just last December, Russia proposed a deal of providing cheaper natural gas to Ukraine in exchange for better terms on its lease in Sevastopol. This is another reason there should be serious consideration of a split handing back the Crimea to Russia.

With the crisis over Syria that is the Saudi attempt to get a pipeline through Syria to compete with Russia on natural gas sales to Europe, Ukraine also presents a very serious problem for Russia. Natural gas sales to Europe are a key source of foreign exchange for Russia, yet a large portion of that gas actually passes through Ukraine. An independent Ukraine may present an economic threat to Russia if those pipelines were to be shut off. Nevertheless, Gazprom is also hedging its bets by building a new South Stream pipeline that crosses the Black Sea on the seabed from Russia to Bulgaria, bypassing Ukraine. This could relieve that geopolitical-economic threat, but it is not immediate. Clearly, this comes at a time that is serious in light of what the USA and Saudi’s are trying to pull off with the overthrow of Syria pretending they care about human rights when in fact it is all about that pipeline.

The Ukrainians really do not “feel“ that they are Russian and they have toppled statues of Lenin everywhere.  Why? Historically, Josef Stalin brutally subjugated Ukraine back in the 1930s. He confiscated all the wealth liquidating the farmers that were known as kulaks. The bad feelings concerning Russia run deep in the Western parts while in the East they see themselves as Russians. These feelings run very deep in the region and memories do not fade so easily. We still have the word “vandalize” that comes from the North African Vandals sacking Rome back in 455AD. China still hates Japan for their brutal invasion. These feelings and memories do not really exist in the USA most likely because of the very diverse ethnic backgrounds creating a melting pot rather than one group that remembers another.


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Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:07 | 4467763 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

I've heard of toppled Lenins before but they always get reerected somehow. Why bother toppling them in the first place.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:29 | 4467800 stant
stant's picture

they should have tried to sell them to komyfornia or any of those other bolshevik states. makes some cash. of course they be stolen eventually and sold for scrap but thats beside the point

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:56 | 4467829 Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

Russians must stop believing three ‘stupid’ myths about Ukraine

Efforts like those Moscow tried in 1994-95 collapsed in Crimea despite the presence of pro-Russian politicians. They will collapse again.

Is Vladimir Putin Behind An Army Of Internet Trolls?

Elder reports that the emails are between Vasily Yakemenko, the first leader of the youth group Nashi (who now, of course, works for the Kremlin), Kristina Potupchik, and other activists — and show that Nashi was paying bloggers as much as 600,000 roubles ($20,000) to leave hundreds of negative comments on anti-Kremlin online stories. Other leaked emails show that the group appeared to be "buying" pro-government articles in Russian newspapers.

It makes you wonder how much Kremlin has paid to these pathetic Kremlin propagandists: “Tyler Durden,” "Stefana Karinskaya," Martin Armstrong, etc.

Russian propagandist “Tyler Durden” is as desperate as "Stefana Karinskaya."

Confirmed Kremlin Twitter Bot

A new Ukraine is the Kremlin's worst nightmare

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:57 | 4467866 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

"These feelings and memories do not really exist in the USA most likely because of the very diverse ethnic backgrounds creating a melting pot rather than one group that remembers another."


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:49 | 4467870 Cult_of_Reason
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Krasheninnikov concludes: “Let’s not deceive ourselves and learn to see the world more or less adequately: Russia already for a long time is not an empire. Ukraine is a separate state. And the more quickly we (Russians) come to terms with this situation, the more rapidly we (Russians) will find the solution of our own internal problems.”


P.S. Pro-Kremlin propaganda media and paid bloggers as "Tyler Durden" and Martin Armstrong are trying to portray the issue in Ukraine as West vs. East or Ukrainian speaking vs. Russian speaking.

But the real division in Ukraine is between (freedom and democracy) vs (goverment corruption and PoR -- party of Yanukovich).

"Tyler Durden" keeps posting videos of maybe 30 to 50 paid thugs (in Ukraine they call them "titushki") in Kerch (Kerch population 146K vs 2M in Crimea and 46M in Ukraine), but selectively does not post videos of thousands of pro-euromaidan and against Russia protesters on the streets in Crimea today.

Crimean PM not at all secessionist today: "We should prevent any outbreaks (of pro-Russia) radicalism in Crimea"

Note that Pro-Kremlin propagandist Tyler Durden's map of "toppling Lenin statues" intentionally cuts off Crimea, but

"In Crimea, the protesters demanding the dissolution of Crimean parliament and the autonomy, and the demolition of the monument to Lenin."


Info about Titushky (or Titushki -- criminal groups of Yanukovich goverment and PoR)


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:03 | 4467881 Haus-Targaryen
Haus-Targaryen's picture

You are a particularly egregious individual.  


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:24 | 4467949 john39
john39's picture

the borg are a collective

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:43 | 4468012 superflex
superflex's picture

Are the EU bankers and Jewish interests behind the Cult of Reason internet troll?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:42 | 4467831 semperfidelis
semperfidelis's picture

How arrogant does Russia look on the world stage calling for a military invasion of Crimea? Ukraine is a sovereign nation, recognized by Russia and all countries at the UN. What if Obama called tomorrow for an armed invasion of the Baja peninsula claiming it has `strategic interest` for the USA? How would the US look? You must be delusional to think that bringing down a flag actually has anything to do with Russian foreign policy.


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:59 | 4467863 gmrpeabody
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Not to belabor the point, but the USA has invaded many countries for lesser reasons...

(no, I didn't down you)

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:41 | 4468006 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

This “gift” of Crimea to Ukraine would be like the USA giving Texas to Mexico and Texans would suddenly all be Mexican. Would they “feel” Mexican or American?

Remember the Alamo!

Come and take it

Over my dead body bitches!!!

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:43 | 4468014 semperfidelis
semperfidelis's picture

Does Russia claim Alaska as well?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:47 | 4468027 Johnny Cocknballs
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Except it wouldn't be like the Texas example.  The Crimea was formely part of Russia, it is 60% Russian and mostly Russian-speaking.

It is the United States that has no moral or historical justification to be meddling there.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:03 | 4468240 FMR Bankster
FMR Bankster's picture

Any comparisons between the US and Europe don't fit. Our borders have been in place for 150 years. Borders have been shifting in Europe for a 1000 years. Ethnic groups are tossed from country to country after each war. When you have 25% of the Germans outside of Germany after the WW1 border adjustments what are the chances of a WW2? Pretty good I think. Same deal here. Let Ukraine, Russia and the EU sort it out.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:41 | 4468164 americanspirit
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Speaking as a Texan with a strong allegiance to the Americas but with zero allegiance to the US Federal government, I think there would be a lot to be said for Texas leaving the so-called Union and forming an independent alliance with Mexico. I personally identify much more strongly with the people and cultures of Mexico than I do with the people and cultures of New York, Boston, Chicago and Washington DC.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 20:58 | 4469238 klockwerks
klockwerks's picture

Thank you fellow Texan and I heartly agree.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:57 | 4468051 semperfidelis
semperfidelis's picture

I agree with the American foreign policy as much as I do with the Russian one. It the end both will suffer a major FUBAR event.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:02 | 4467879 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Direct invasion with troops is not the only way to take over.  What if a "leader" suddenly arose in Eastern Ukraine and called for secession from the rest of the country?  The Ukrainian govt. moves to put him down, more riots, Putin steps in to side with those secessionists (which he calls "freedom fighters" at that point) and... done deal.

Russians play chess.  We play checkers (sometimes, we simply eat the checkers because we don't know any better).

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:06 | 4467889 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Crimea is viewed as Russian territory.  Even Ukraine and the US does not bother to debate that point.   It houses their naval fleets.....

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:45 | 4467846 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Will Putin let it go? Sure, sure he will. " Okay, you can have my food and my money, come right on in and take it; pay no attention to the .45 Automatic in my right hand; it's just a movie prop".

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:56 | 4467862 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

Did Lincoln let the Confederacy break off?

Will Barry let Gov Perry break Texas free from the USA?

To ask the question is to answer it.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:09 | 4467765 Truther
Truther's picture

Putin will show who the real chess player is. Winning as usual.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:13 | 4467772 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

since putin takes usa and eu clownbux he is hardly winning anything at all. putin blows joo bankers

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:01 | 4467876 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Have a bad night, Buzz?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:20 | 4467784 william114085
william114085's picture

Mad Vlad is just a pawn....same as Berry the Fruit

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:34 | 4467815 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

Just waiting for the Olympics to end and then the forces will be unleashed.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:44 | 4467841 El Tuco
El Tuco's picture

Yeah Putin will show them. His society is falling apart.....

Courtesy of

the Russian penchant for heavy drinking is becoming a major health concern. A recent study (pdf) published in The Lancet found that heavy vodka consumption in Russia is alarmingly tied to early deaths. And Russia—its men especially—is plagued by early deaths. Over 25% of men die before the age of 55, and about 20% of all deaths amongst Russian men are due to alcohol-related causes. ”High mortality [in Russia] absolutely is caused by hazardous alcohol consumption,” Dr. David Zaridze, one of the study’s authors.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:29 | 4467963 toady
toady's picture

You paste that like it's a bad thing. The US, and all the countries with aging demographics and budget shortfalls WISH they had stats like that!

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:31 | 4467969 john39
john39's picture

that's what chemtrails and big pharma are for.

and just rolled out obamao-care just to be sure.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:08 | 4468252 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Along with GMO foods and what passes for real food in the grocery stores.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:15 | 4467774 thatthingcanfly
thatthingcanfly's picture

Martin Armstrong has got a few things wrong about Yanukovych. The man bent over backwards to accommodate the protesters, whom would be identified as terrorists were this happening anywhere else in the world.

Pat Buchanan's got a great article on the Chronicles website on the unrest in Ukraine.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:32 | 4467810 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

And then the British, CIA, and Mossad snipers fucked it all up.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:12 | 4467904 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

I guess you missed the videos of Ukrainian policemen with rifles shooting at the protesters....  But since you say it was the CIA it must be true.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:49 | 4468031 Johnny Cocknballs
Johnny Cocknballs's picture

did you see the videos of the peaceful protesters shooting at the police?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:45 | 4468369 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"I guess you missed the videos of Ukrainian policemen with rifles shooting at the protesters.... "

I guess you missed the videos of Ukrainian policemen with rifles shooting at the protesters.... who shot at police with sniper rifles and throwing in the police and to government buildings, Molotov cocktails. Do not you, my liberal friend?
Or do you think that the police in the United States will never shoot at anyone who is a threat to public order, the foundations of government and the lives of those cops?
Or do you think that in the U.S. all who according to the government is a terrorist, was killed only via missiles with drones of US democratic government?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:08 | 4467892 Skin666
Skin666's picture

A Kleptocrat is a Kleptocrat.


Look at the inside of his palace as shown yesterday on ZH, and you see how much this cuntsack politician was able to skim off productive citizens. Corruption is endemic across the world, and it's becoming increasingly clear to the brainwashed masses.


Roll the motherfucking guillotines, nothing changes otherwise...

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:53 | 4468042 agent default
agent default's picture

Go tell that to the Fed.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:15 | 4468468 Boomberg
Boomberg's picture

If only we could see the multiple world-wide compounds of our rulers, Jamie Dimon, Lloyd Blankfein, Brian Moynihan, and others. Not one of them has contributed one decent thing to society, skimming all of their wealth with gambling beyond our wildest imaginations, with the money from the labor of 401K contributions, mortgages, and pension plans. The banker compounds make the Ukrainian compound look like an outhouse. 

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:58 | 4468056 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Buchanon is spot on in that article. Not our fucking rodeo. Fuck You McCain, you senile old prick

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:17 | 4467779 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

It is likely no coincidence that these events heated up during Sochi.  Putin could hardly start rolling tanks in the middle of that.   Somehow I'm guessing they are gassed up and ready to go.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:21 | 4467786 Jon Steed
Jon Steed's picture

putin just waiting for that last fire cracker at sochi to end the games and then.  now we invade.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:44 | 4467838 Flagit
Flagit's picture

you mean diesel?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:54 | 4468044 agent default
agent default's picture

Nah, they are multifuel.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:26 | 4468508 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Maybe.... but this isn't 1956 or 1968. I don't think it is going to play out the same way...

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 23:29 | 4469656 pot_and_kettle
pot_and_kettle's picture

Watched the closing ceremonies in Sochi.


Now on the lookout for the opening ceremonies in the Ukraine.  Less pleasant, they'll be, but a more fireworks methinks.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:17 | 4467781 The_Ungrateful_Yid
The_Ungrateful_Yid's picture

Love seeing lenin being toppled, fucking awesome.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:23 | 4467789 OwnSilverPlayMusic
OwnSilverPlayMusic's picture

Totally agree just as long as statues of Barroso don't go up to replace them.  If Ukranians actually want to be free, joining the EU would be as great of a mistake as cowering to mother Russia.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:28 | 4467961 john39
john39's picture

meet the new boss...  you know the rest.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:22 | 4468123 Mountainview
Mountainview's picture

Ukrainians got it already wrong once with Western Europeans, when they welcomed Nazi "liberators" in second world war. The cheer didn't last very long.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:31 | 4467807 The.Harmless.Who
The.Harmless.Who's picture



Wow, Yid, you're breaking ranks here! 


Lenin was a yid! 


Awyoe - the Talmud didn't command this. It expresses hate and contempt (much like the FED doctorine) on the Goyim.  



Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:38 | 4467822 The_Ungrateful_Yid
The_Ungrateful_Yid's picture

Never assume a username means what you think ;)

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:33 | 4467981 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

^--- Well except in my case it's pretty transparent.  You can see through it, or at least through the middle...

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:58 | 4468414 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"Lenin was a yid!"

Lenin was the personification and the brainchild of Western ideals of freedom and democracy. Lenin was a good student of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels - both of them Europeans.
Who helped Lenin to overthrow the king? It is Berlin, Zurich and London.
Lenin escaped from persecution of Tsarist police in the diplomatic car of the train to Berlin.
Why the West does not like Lenin, via whose hands West made ??in the Russian bloody coup and killed the Russian Tsar, along with all his entire family?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:35 | 4467974 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

Love seeing lenin being toppled, fucking awesome.


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 21:27 | 4469197 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

The irony is that Lenin himself is believed to have been sponsored by the Western oligarchs when toppling Tsarist regime in Russia. The pro-western Ukrainians are destroying the statues of 1917 male version of Yulia Timoshenko.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:21 | 4467785 123dobryden
123dobryden's picture

putin has its own bankers, dont you worry

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:25 | 4467791 DrData02
DrData02's picture

"Take the Roman Emperor Aurelian (270–275 AD) who fought to regain the European portion that separated from Rome known as the Gallic Empire and in the East defeated Zenobia who established the Empire of Palmyra."

What a great point!!  This familiar example which is so often cited and which we all studied so extensively in school indicates the accuracy of Armstrong's position.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:17 | 4467922 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

So you needed him to point out an example(s) of things you already knew (1776, Ghandi, Mexico, other east-west wars of the Roman Empires...)?  Would you then blast him for being too obvious?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:01 | 4468067 Johnny Cocknballs
Johnny Cocknballs's picture

how bout that it was not a particularly germane comparison?


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:45 | 4468187 Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

The God damn Germans got nothing to do with it!

Quick name that movie..

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:26 | 4467794 Invinciblehandaxe
Invinciblehandaxe's picture

Lenin was paid by german secret police and the guns were supplied from germany as well

EU is nothing but a nazi fucking camp for everyone not living in the fucking germany

i really hope the EU break apart soon

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:30 | 4467965 john39
john39's picture

if by german you mean zionist bankers, then yes...  lenin was paid by such 'germans'.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:59 | 4468421 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

Was the Kaiser a Zionist?


The Kaiser didnT really like the Czar very much and supported insurgents like Lenin.

So yes, the Germans supported Lenin!


Mon, 02/24/2014 - 00:01 | 4469739 novictim
novictim's picture

To Kaiser Wilhelm. "cousin Niki" was a total boob but there is no way that the Kaiser wanted to foment radicals in Russia that could then influence the German working poor.  No way.  

And I might add that no one could have for seen the October revolution happening before it did.

That was total revisionist history on your part.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:30 | 4467803 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

Crimea belongs to Russia. Maybe the east part of Ukraine also belongs to Russia. We'll see soon enough.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:34 | 4467808 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Martin Armstrong is either a shill or a douche. A divided Ukraine is the absolute worst possible solution for the Ukrainian people. A united independent Ukraine is the best solution for the Ukrainian people especially one where they control their own resources and property rights. That includes money and tariff protections against the Central Banks trying to destabilize their currency to strip mine their resources for below fair market value. They need to be able to offset the banks by being able to up prices and protect against predatory imports. Only way you can do that is a strong independent sovereign undivided Ukraine not back door controlled like a bunch of puppets.

The only people that benefit the most by a divided Ukraine are the groups that are trying to divide it in the first place........

Cui Bono assholes for each scenario.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:49 | 4467849 Flagit
Flagit's picture

A divided Ukraine is the absolute worst possible solution for the Ukrainian people.


since when do the Ukrainian people have any say in the matter?

i thought it was up to russia/usa/eu to decide whats best for people in their own countries.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:03 | 4467882 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

yep. And Stalin was a Georgian...not a Russian. What he did he did to all Ukranians...not just "East vs West."

To say Ukraine served to USSR well during the Cold War is an understatement.

They ran the thing.
The attempt as "Russification" as was the German plan "going in the other direction" completely failed. Krushchev had Stalin's crimes exposed and suddenly "Ukraine" became "Ukraine." And so it appears to have happened again.

We'll see what happens.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:00 | 4468064 agent default
agent default's picture

I agree... But, how do you define Ukrainian people?  Because the people in Crimea are and have always been ethnically Russian NOT Ukrainians.  So you see, you have to define Ukraine's boundaries first, before you start talking about a united Ukraine.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:24 | 4468302 foxenburg
foxenburg's picture

A large chunk of Ukraine was Poland until 1939. Drop a perpendicular from Latvia down to Romania, just west of Minsk. All snatched by the USSR in 1939. 

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:33 | 4467811 sschu
sschu's picture

The idea that Putin will just give up without a "counterattack" in whatever form is unlikely.  The Russians will not give up the access to the Black Sea, the gas and oil pipelines are strategic and the Ukranians are historic enemies.

There will be serious blood in the streets before this is over.  Wonder what the Bamster etal intends to do about it?  What can he do really? 



Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:28 | 4468311 foxenburg
foxenburg's picture

Where does Rusian access to the Black Sea come into it? They've still got from Georgia to the Crimea anyway.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:04 | 4468435 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"Ukranians are historic enemies."

For Russians?! For Russians?! What kind of grass you smoke? Say Drugs your hard "NO".

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:35 | 4468528 sschu
sschu's picture

Thanks for the response.  I do believe Stalin tried to starve the Ukrainians in the 1930s and Peter the Great was no friend of Ukraine (Cossacks).

When Hitler invaded the Ukraine in the 1940s, they were ready to fight the Russians on behalf of the Nazis.  Only Hitler's extreme racism (he thought the Slavs were sub human) prevented this from occurring.  Many believe that this was a major reason the eastern front was lost, Hitler's unwillingness to see the strategic advantage of using the Ukrainians to defeat the Russians.  

As for access to the Black Sea, maybe a short glance at a map would be helpful.  






Mon, 02/24/2014 - 10:22 | 4470538 silvermail
silvermail's picture


1. Stalin never struggled with the Ukrainians, it is not necessary to repeat the nonsense for morons on Faux News propaganda.
Stalin fought with the class of wealthy peasants , regardless of their ethnicity. Therefore famine in 30 years was not only in Ukraine , but in Russia, too .
2 . Famine in Ukraine in the 30s was in areas inhabited predominantly Russian people . It is south and south -east of Ukraine. Most people died of starvation, were Russian, not Ukrainian.
More than any other, today scream and whine about the hunger, only representatives of western Ukraine . But on the western Ukraine famine was not. This is called political prostitution.
3 . Only in the western regions of Ukraine, part of the local population, headed by Stepan Bandera, served the Nazis. In the central part of Ukraine and especially in the southern and eastern regions of Ukraine, such a phenomenon was not.
Learn the history yourself my friend. It's better than repeat someone else's stupidity and look very ridiculous.

Mon, 02/24/2014 - 11:13 | 4470815 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Wow, now that is some serious revisionist shit you put together...

But inline with your track record here...

Mon, 02/24/2014 - 11:16 | 4470831 sschu
sschu's picture

My friend, perhaps we could have a discussion without insults and invective.

Here is a good source (not Faux News btw), that makes the case that the Ukrainian famine was in large part the result of Lenin and Stalin's policies and direct intent.

Some excerpts:

The Ukraine was the bread basket of Russia, but the Great Famine of 1932/3 was not just aimed at the Ukrainians as a nation - it was a deliberate policy aimed at the entire Soviet peasant population - Russian, Ukrainian and Kazakh - especially better-off, small-time farmers.

It was a class war designed to 'break the back of the peasantry', a war of the cities against the countryside and, unlike the Holocaust, it was not designed to eradicate an ethnic people, but to shatter their independent spirit.


Backed by the young, tough Communists of his party, he [Stalin] devised what he called the Great Turn: he would seize the land, force the peasants into collective farms and sell the excess grain abroad to force through a Five Year Plan of furious industrialisation to make Soviet Russia a military super power.


In letters written by many Soviet leaders, including Stalin and Molotov, which I have read in the archives, they repeatedly used the expression: 'We must break the back of the peasantry.' And they meant it.


It is clear that the policies and intent of those in charge (Stalin) led to famine for many, especially Ukrainians.  It seems the Daily Mail article is more consistent with what we know of Lenin and Stalin and the havoc they perpetrated.  

Not sure how anyone can defend these actions.  The pictures are enough to make one ill.


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:45 | 4467817 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

Whether you like or dislike the source this is what will happen if the American people don't attempt to put a stop to it. This Time!

If anybody was already confused about the situation since 2007 when we tried it out on Georgia, we're at war with Russia and China and have been at war for the better part of 7 years!

Even if you get in the face of your guy in Washington D.C. and nothing comes of it, at least you can say you did your best to preserve what is left of this World. 

If you should decide not to camp out in huge numbers in front of their offices expect the worst to happen!
Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:12 | 4467906 Flagit
Flagit's picture

this is what will happen if the American people don't attempt to put a stop to it.


i think the american people have less say so than the ukrainians when it comes to american foreign policy.  

not going to war in syria still has me floored. my best guess is that they never intended to go in. the people didnt actually cause that, did they?


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:22 | 4467940 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Perhaps it was the Russian fleet in the Med that provided the "wait a second" needed to stop Obama in Syria.  On the other hand, if the tanks be rolliing on the steppes then maybe the fleet will be in the Black to support.  This would leave Syria open, it would seem.  Maybe Ukraine is (apart from the Ukrainians themselves) a distracton.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:01 | 4468425 agent default
agent default's picture

Why would you need a fleet to support an operation that can be undertaken strictly form inland?  You maybe on to something but I don't see the connection.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:40 | 4468004 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

"i think the american people have less say so than the ukrainians when it comes to american foreign policy."... 

And that's unfortunately the dilemma for the rest of the World because of our indifference and inaction!

This site has had many thoughtful reads on the subject of Americans taking their wealth and talent elsewhere. But when you have a government that is the most dangerous and malevolent on the face of the planet, how can anyone find true happiness and inner peace abroad knowing that they've contributed either (directly or indirectly) to the suffering and damage of so many countless nations and peoples around the world?  What I'm suggesting is that if you want that happiness and "inner peace" regardless of whether you stay or go, you owe it to yourself, family friends and the people you may, or may not ever see in your lifetime receive the justice they so richly deserve for the crimes the leaders of the United States Government have committed in our names knowingly, willingly and repeatedly.

Paul Craig Roberts lays it all out in this one with Stefan Molyneaux which is about 30 minutes, but well worth it in dissecting the roots of this Country's historical problems within the last 30 years, and why we all have a stake in fixing it as it truly is a problem of our own making -before it's too late.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:41 | 4467827 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Well so far any crisis that could've gotten worse, any default that could've happen, any real war that could've started up has all been avoided at any and all costs some of which have made things worse than the actual event trying to be avoided would had.

So........when the shtf wake me up.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:43 | 4467837 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

Of course. all of this is bullish for gold.  Will it be Ukraine, Thailand, Syria, Venezuela, NKorea, or a China/Japan spark to set off WWIII?

You just know it's coming, as the banksters need the ultimate distraction to evade the gallows when the SHTF.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:44 | 4467842 atsoft888
atsoft888's picture

The problem is not Lenin being toppled, as it was in Russia too. It is far more important to see who are their new idols.
The problem cuts deeper as Russian speaking part of population ( still majority in East and South) is being oppressed, or is going to be oppressed ( e.g. new changes to language laws). At the same time. Ukraine is not a real country - it is quite right statement - it is 20 years old. Take a look at Sudan - this is the kind of situation Ukraine is going into: divided as nation, divided as economy, divided as country.
It is rather difficult to see who Putin can influence. West Ukraine worships people, who where in SS troops, who had been kiling Jews, Russians, Ukranians. And that happens in the country, which claim it took over Hitler, with East being very proud of this victory.

With all due respect, under the law Yanukovich was supposed to be gone by May 2015 What was the reason for rioting? - he proved to be useless as a leader, as he tried hard to balance between money and power and between West and East. He proved to be a complete impotent to use his power: police was hold on for the duaration of the crisis and not allowed to do what it is supposed to. Strong leaders, as Yulya, would have taken all necessary actions to protect their position and power. So, the result is obvious. I think that the reason for his reluctance is simple: all the money he and his allies have are in USA or Europe. If he ever tried to take any such actions, he would have been called a tyrant or dictator, who oppresses his free people - all his wealth will be gone. It is a Belorussian way. He decided against it and try to play along european and American guidlines. What we see is a result. Of cause, he is being called dictator and tyrant by winners, but they are the first to prohibit certain mass-media, cutting in TV brodcasting and making sure all security forces are under full control and any now opposition leaders are to be detained asap. Yanukovich was so useless, that leaders of people, who are defining duly elected president of his power, where allowed to travel, making public speeches and apperances, taking part in official negotiations... Complete madness!!!

Now, even with West money, Ukraine is a on the brink of default, on the brink of collapse and on the brink of civil war. It would take a lot to hold it on the edge and far more to take it from the edge. Quite sad.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:59 | 4468232 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

From the sounds of it you would favor using the police to just kill all the demonstrators.  It is a lot easier to govern a country with no living people - nobody to object.  I guess the only good tyrant is the one who will do anything and kill everyone to stay in power in your book.

Even an elected government that raises the ire of the people so greatly as to cause them to depose the government is not a government of the people. 

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 21:54 | 4469403 atsoft888
atsoft888's picture

Sorry that it sounded something like it to you.
No one here is to support any killings. The President has a lot of various tools at his disposal to deal with public unrest before any harsh actions.
Just imagine, how long would it take to deal with people in NY, if they built barricades on Times Sq. and start throwing Molotov cocktails to police. Or, how long would it take to imprison a congressman, who would call for rioting and topping of president in what iis now a Banana-republic like USA, where president is acting like a dictator.
Take a tour into recent US or Uk or French, for sake of augment, history and see how long would it take to crash such riots without killing 100+ men - normally it would take couple of days to wait and couple of days to clear squares.
What would have happen to a person in balaclava, who, having bullet proff vest, shield and iron stick, try to hit a police officer in US? Just a bit of rhetoric...

Just to remind, police was not allowed to use live munition till day, preceding the surrender. Yanukovich must be worshipped, not hunted down now, as he handed over all his power without a fight.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 23:54 | 4469728 Paveway IV
Paveway IV's picture

Your Saint Yanukovych ordered the army to Kyiv to kill Euromaidaners. They refused. Yanukovych handed over all his power without a fight because nobody would fight for him except paid-by-the-day thugs.

Mon, 02/24/2014 - 07:48 | 4470199 atsoft888
atsoft888's picture

It's called sarcasm, dude!

He must have taken steps before and steps where supposed to be not harsh.
100+ people keeled from maidan's side, over 40 people killed from police side.

But I am not quite sure that should something like this happen in US, it would have been dealt with quickly and without any hesitation with no counts toward people lifes - police would have been more important. 

Police was told for months to hold lines and to not intervene. They were armed with non-lethal ammunition and rubber weapons - weak state, weak president - so many casulaties.

NOte, that there are no children or women killed - only men -quite a fact vs. harsh police toward maidan, which has been filled with plenty of children and women.

If someone belives that government is not supposed to get things in order - I suggest he try something like this in his own country and see how far he could go this way ( my guess, in all civilized countries, such riots with blocking of major squares in capital would not be tolerated for more than couple of days).


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:44 | 4467851 Johnny Cocknballs
Johnny Cocknballs's picture
The Rise of Putin and The Fall of The Russian Oligarchs



The battle for Ukraine's future is being fought on the streets of Kiev, but behind the scenes a handful of wealthy and politically connected oligarchs is trying to influence events in the country.

Some are discreetly backing the opposition that wants closer ties to Europe and the West, while some support President Viktor Yanukovych and strong ties to Russia. Still others seem to be playing both sides.

Who are these billionaires? Adrian Karatnycky, a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, and Lauren Goodrich, chief Eurasia analyst at global intelligence firm Stratfor, as well as other experts, give us a who's who.

Henadiy Boholyubov and Ihor Kolomoyskyy: These billionaire partners own Privat Group, which includes Ukraine's largest banks and holdings in other industries including media and energy. Karatnycky said that at the moment they are behind anti-government protesters, having shifted their allegiance from the current government.

Sergey Kurchenko: Often referred to as a media mogul and Ukraine's "gas king," this 28-year-old controls much of the country's print media, and he has a large stake in its gas market. Karatnycky said Kurchenko is believed to be holding money for Yanukovych and his family.

 Victor Pinchuk: An avid art collector, he has been a strong supporter of Ukraine's tentative moves toward European integration. But Goodrich said his business ties are in Russia. Along with his television holdings, Pinchuk owns Interpipe, a Ukrainian metallurgical mill company.

Vadim Novinsky: Said to be an important link between Yanukovych and Russian interests, he has made strong statements about supporting agreements with Russia. Karatnycky said that Novinsky recently bought dormant and bankrupt shipbuilding facilities in Ukraine that could prove useful for Russia, and Goodrich confirmed his deep ties to Russia.

Petro Poroshenko: Karatnycky said Poroshenko, who served as foreign minister and minister of economic development and trade under Yanukovych, is now the second-most-popular opposition figure, behind former boxing champion Vitali Klitschko. He could play an important role in Ukraine's future, especially if there is a peaceful transition.

Dmytro Firtash: Worth an estimated $3 billion, he has made most of his money from gas trading and the chemical industry. Goodrich said Firtash was close to a group of loyalists within the parliament who supported Yanukovych's block; however, there are rumors he is now funding Klitschko's party. In mid-January, Firtash ally Serhiy Lyovochkin quit the Yanukovych administration over its use of force.

Rinat Akhmetov: With an estimated net worth of more than $15 billion, Akhmetov was once "joined at the hip with Yanukovych," according to Edward Mermelstein, an attorney and adviser on cross-border investments in Russia and Ukraine. Goodrich pointed out, however, that Akhmetov had a relationship with former President Viktor Yushchenko and was funding both sides during recent elections.

Stephen Larrabee, European security expert at Rand Corp., told CNBC that the oligarchs may move away from Yanukovych because they have much to lose if he can't retain power.

Mermelstein, who called Ukraine's oligarchs "quiet billionaires," echoed Larabee's sentiments:

"Each of these high-net-worth individuals has a tremendous stake in who will next lead the Ukrainian government," he said. "They have much to gain or much to lose depending on outcome."

Goodrich pointed out that Ukrainian oligarchs are different from their Russian counterparts in that they are active in politics. Russian players tend to stay away from the political process, which is dominated by one man: President Vladimir Putin.

"It's almost as if [Ukrainian] oligarchs are part of the process in which people rise to power," she said.

Several sources said the oligarchs are hedging their bets to ensure their own financial interests and survival.

"There's no ideology," Goodrich said. "It's all about the money and the self-preservation of their own respective empires."

First published February 21st 2014, 3:25 pm

- Ukraine's Quiet Oligarchs




Dedicated to Cunt of Treason, FlukeMeter, and the Usual Gang of Idiots

Hugs and Kisses,

Johnathan Phallusettestes

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 12:51 | 4467853 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

I hope they're planning to put those Lenins in the pot.

Ukraine is gonna need the brass when the Bear comes calling.

Obama is working up a sternly worded statement about ethereal red lines as we speak.

I'll bet he doesn't know bears are colorblind.


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:12 | 4467903 toady
toady's picture

Saw some MSM coverage this morning. They were saying the ethnic &language differences between east & west were overblown, and the deal that the Ukraine made with Russia to remove all of it's nukes to gain independence from Russia was smart.

Both the opposite of what I think...

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:07 | 4468088 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Saw that gutless weeny washer Dick Durbin saying we need to push Ukraine toward "western values". Hahaha- these fucksticks are priceless. Western values, you know like spying on their people, endentured servitude, unemployment for youths etc. Fuck You Durbin, you're a cunt

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:17 | 4468477 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"we need to push Ukraine toward "western values".

The "western values" - what is it?
You mean the oil and gas as the major "western values??"?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:16 | 4467918 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

I really don't understand the contention that an "independent" Ukraine might disrupt flows of gas pipelines. Would that hurt Russia? Yes. But, of course, it would also hurt the EU. What would Ukraine gain? TWO pissed-off neighbors?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:25 | 4467957 sangell
sangell's picture

Putin can't accept a Ukrainian rump state. That would be a defeat and, unbelievably, NSA Susan Rice called for the preservation of Ukrainian territorial integrity which Putin will interpret as an invitation for him to intervene.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:26 | 4467958 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

Some of my family comes from Eastern Poland currently Ukraine, we never did get our farms back. The Russians and Germans both had a hand in destroying my family and even though my great grandparents and grandparents are now gone, the rest of us still remember how we ended up in America and Argentina. This is yet another reminder that most of the people on this planet are pawns on the chessboard, sometimes we get in the way when they play their games. This shit has been going on forever. :(

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:43 | 4468011 Flagit
Flagit's picture

, we never did get our farms back. The Russians and Germans both had a hand in destroying my family and even though my great grandparents and grandparents are now gone, the rest of us still remember how we ended up in America and Argentina.


please, tell your story. we...I, will listen.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:43 | 4468349 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

His family were rural aristocrats who supported the wrong side at the wrong time.

They regret doing that...

Mon, 02/24/2014 - 07:31 | 4470150 alus
alus's picture

You think you're funny? Lviv, Stanislawow city were always belonging to Poland, Przemysl was more Ukrainian, . After WW2 Stalin decided this areas will go to Russia. Borders had been moved (because USA-Russia-GreatBritain) decided that way in Jalta and Potsdam in 1944/1945. Without asking people living there if they would be part of Russia (then) or Poland. Hundred Thousands of people were sent between Ukraine and Poland in "Wisla" action (both ways - you should know that on these areas people have been living together with no problems - Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, Germans, Czechs etc.). When WW2 comes and Ukrainian nationalists killed 300-500k civilians - Poles, Jews, even Ukrainians didn't share their "vision" of areas only for Ukrainians (you can see plenty of such nationalist organizations like "right sector", "Svoboda" etc. still having the same flags and ideas). And many had to escape to Americas.

The problem there is - Ukrainians still don't know their own history, still Bandera has plenty of monuments, and they still that UON-UPA is their heroic army. (it's easy to be a hero fighting with innocent civilians...). When they had to fight with self-devence units - they were beaten (seach for example for "Przebraze defend")

Nationalism is still the problem. Till the moment Ukraine denies this ideas, it will never be free and have good relations with their neighbours...

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:24 | 4468111 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

@Crash Overide

Some of my family comes from Eastern Poland currently Ukraine, we never did get our farms back.

Blame Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin for that.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:32 | 4467976 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

Sochi Olympic Closing Ceremonies now...


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:38 | 4467995 Tartarus
Tartarus's picture

The whole south and east is about to light up. In Donetsk and Kharkiv there are pro-Russian protesters protecting those Lenin statues and now you have anti-EU demonstrations in Crimea and Odessa where they are waving the Russian flag. You aren't going to see a Russian invasion just yet, that will wait until both sides are killing each other in the streets so Moscow can step in to "protect" the Russian population. Another bang-up job by the manipulative blowhards who brought you Libya, Egypt, and Syria. No, Ukraine, you do not pass go. You do not collect $15 billion from the IMF. You go straight to civil war.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:05 | 4468439 agent default
agent default's picture


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:46 | 4468003 novictim
novictim's picture

A historical note:  The Vandals were a Germanic Tribe who had migrated from the area we now call Poland eventually being pushed by various tribes (including the Huns) to migrate into North Africa from where they launched more assaults on Rome.

Moving on...

If Russia and Putin have ANY sense at all they will allow the Ukrainians to retake their democracy, join with Europe and allow for feelings to mend.  The cultural divide here is not so deep and the Ukrainian people will be stubborn to acts of Russian intimidation. 


Will Ukrainian troops lead by the new resurgent democracy politicians march on the Crimean region to assert Ukrainian independence?  Will they arrest that thief and Scum-bag Victor Yanukovych or will he flea to Moscow?  How about the oligarchs who installed that puppet?

Further, what will the protest movements around the world learn from the brave and bold Ukrainians>?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:47 | 4468026 john39
john39's picture

spreading euro-style fascist marxism...   less than inspiring.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:59 | 4468060 novictim
novictim's picture

Is that you, Professor Cohen, with your bull-shit trope of calling the Pro-Europe Ukrainians "fascist Nazis"? Did I just blow your cover?

Oh, but it is Sunday, isn't it, so they must be LGBT provocateurs...right?
When you spin so many lies then it gets hard to keep them straight, doesn't it, professor?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:06 | 4468248 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

This must be true every time a people try to throw off the yoke of external tyranny - they must be some form of fascists.  Fascism must now mean, people who want to be free.  In that case, I'm a fascist.  You must be a toady.  I happily stomp on you with my jackboot when you try to rule me.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:44 | 4468017 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

And pretty much everybody here has been telling me that Putin holds all the cards and he is playing chess and assorted other bullshit...

He just lost another tempo...

Russians have been ruled by the oligarchs living off the fat of the land since the days of Ivan the Terrrible, if not longer. Tell me exactly what will change with all this?

BTW, did anyone here put 2 and 2 together and realize that the State Department cancelling Snowdens Passport while in Moscow was a calculated effort to strand him there? They played Putin again, as he become a willing jailer. Perhaps to give dear Edward a real taste of what repressed freedom looks like...

BTW, Snowden did the right thing... 

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 13:53 | 4468040 novictim
novictim's picture

Yes, Snowden DID do the right thing.  

If he returned to the USA (or if Glen Greenwald, the other patriot did so) we might just see Ukrainian style protests to free him.  I'd join that.  ABSOLUTELY.

Wouldn't that be something.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:40 | 4468094 toady
toady's picture

I'm still amazed anyone thinks Snowden 'revealed' anything.

Anyone that's been paying attention knew they were being tracked for decades now.

The internet had a chance, but then they started with that tracking cookie stuff (nice name... who's afraid of cookies ;) that was what, '98?

Now, if someone comes up with ways to defeat tracking, that's what I want revealed!

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:08 | 4468253 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

You can turn it off, all of it.  You choose to be tracked.  So do I.

NSA, go to hell traitors.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:20 | 4468290 ebear
ebear's picture

"Anyone that's been paying attention..."

He reached a lot of people who weren't paying attention, or who weren't paying enough attention, so there's that.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 18:23 | 4468828 novictim
novictim's picture

I'm amazed that you don't grok the significance here.  Wow. Do you need spoon feeding too?

Before Snowden the courts would dismiss 4th amendment lawsuits against the government for being "without standing" in there was a lack of concrete evidence of wrong doing and the request for evidence in a legal discovery process was not granted due to state secrets laws.  Classic catch-22.

The Snowden revelations were in the form of actual government memos and documents.  That blew the lid off the claims of secrecy and now we see cases moving forward.


Get on your knees, toady, and thank Edward Snowden for making this possible.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:10 | 4468054 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

I think Dmitry Rogozin nailed it! 

The only thing you could conceivably add to Ashton and President Obama's demented perceptions of what "peaceful protestors" look like, is of you raised the question of what they perceive the lawless "brown shirt" revolutionaries look like?

The best part is the group that is leading that effort and that "groups" views on the Holocaust!

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:16 | 4468269 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Blah blah blah.  Empty propaganda.  We all saw the pictures and videos of young and old, men and women, turning out to support the effort.  Brownshirts my ass.  The whole people of the west turned out to put down the government.  They did not target an ethnic or religious group.  They targeted the government and it's armed wing, the police.  That most decidedly does not match any sort of brownshirt revolution lead by brownshirt revolutionaries. 

It doesn't matter if they are revolting against Russia.  It doesn't matter if the west is assisting.  The people of western Ukraine want freedom from tyrannical government and corruption.  Good for them.  Anyone who is against those people is a douche of the reddest order.

It's their country, not the west's, the Russians, the politicians, not the oligarcs, but the people.  If this is how they want to change government then fine.  It's their country.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 18:35 | 4468854 ThisIsBob
ThisIsBob's picture

I think the people of some Northern Californian and Eastern Colorado counties feel much the same as the people of western Ukraine.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:06 | 4468055 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

This is not going to end up well for Ukraine...:

(...) on Sunday the Ukrainian Rada decided to strip Russian of its status in the Ukraine; a fate that will befall other regional languages as well. With Russian, however, the figures are quite clear: the latest census of 2001 showed that nearly 30 percent of Ukraine considers Russian to be its mother tongue – nearly 15 percent of them are Ukrainians.

It is worth to mention that even though Russian speaking population consists 27% and 25% respectively in Latvia and Estonia, members of E.U., Russian is not second official language there.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:07 | 4468086 Son of Captain Nemo
Son of Captain Nemo's picture

As I keep suggesting Jorgen, you can blame all of the corruption on the Ukraine Government you want, but it's folly to suggest that the outcome we are witnessing from the U.S./NATO participant(s) couldn't be avoided.

They have a Constitution, they could have voted Yanukovych out of office without the bloodshed and destruction, especially when you consider the 1994 Budapest accords the United States signed up to just like all the other international obligations we've systematically abused and violated, most important among them "torture" and assasinations of "enemy non-combatants".

Sure hope our boyz and girlz getting ready for this party know and understand that what "goes around comes around" on that last point!


Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:26 | 4468130 Rising Sun
Rising Sun's picture

Russia/Putin will let this settle and then go for the throat.

For now, Putin sits and waits.


This is going to take years to solve and it will end ugly.  Russia has nothing to lose and will fight to the end.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:35 | 4468148 Tracerfan
Tracerfan's picture

Meanwhile, in "NATO-liberated" Libya:

Libya's oil production has dropped from 570,000 barrels per day to 230,000 barrels per day due to the Feb. 20 shutdown of the el-Sharara oil field following protests, a spokesman for the state-owned National Oil Corp. said Feb. 23, Al Jazeera reported.  The Libyan government is having difficulty instilling order amid ongoing occupations and protests that have targeted the country's energy sector and significantly disrupted production.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:45 | 4468183 gdpetti
gdpetti's picture

end game scenario as the final curtain call approaches in a couple of months. Let Western Ukraine enjoy all that hospitality that Brussels is famous for these days. Surely, NATO will pay off those energy bills, right? Surely, all those students haven't yet learned how radicals are inserted into these 'revolutions' and will kick them out... shall we count the days? It's the usual 'divide and conquer' routine, every empire does it, we are just one of the last before the game ends.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 14:49 | 4468211 Jack Sheet
Jack Sheet's picture

so how does Martin Hamstrung know shit about Ukraine?

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:20 | 4468288 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

he spent all last week reading up on it...

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:20 | 4468231 el-greco
el-greco's picture

Martin Armstrong's comments above are mostly off-base. His cycle theories are interesting but he doesnt pay attention to details and likes to dismiss facts as opinion, claiming they arise out of an emotional bias. Sometimes he's correct but he is certainly not always correct. Appealing to the higher power of his computer program as representing the one and only universal truth makes him dogmatic and the equal of those he criticises for their bias.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:33 | 4468328 ebear
ebear's picture

A severe case of confirmation bias, and I hate to say that because I've gained some valuable insight from his writings over the years.

Moreso than his projections, I suspect his view on gold is what makes him so unpopular around here.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:23 | 4468235 foxenburg
foxenburg's picture


These (bad) feelings and memories do not really exist in the USA......


Tell that to your native Americans. They'd scalp the lot of you at the drop of a hat if they had the chance. lol.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 15:48 | 4468382 vyeung
vyeung's picture

Games have finished. Let the master begin his work. Children (EU/US) watch how the grown ups resolve this.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:11 | 4468447 bombdog
bombdog's picture

Here we go again.. Putin does this... Putin does that... Putin's luck is running out... Putin's olympics are corrupt... Putin-is-a-fascist. And now Putin's power is diminished! This is a matter of pride no less!

When do these guys ever quote Putin? One or two tiny quotes from Armstrong, and a stupid quote about the fall of the USSR from 2004 with no context. It's funny how everyone knows Putin's mind, but if you read the western media you'd think that the guy lives in a cave some place and never makes any speeches.

Funny thing is the Russians don't seem to have done much to interfere in Ukraine so far, which is more than can be said for the West. I think the reason for that is quite simple - the EU and US politicians and diplomats are talentless and can be relied upon 100% to make a mess of the Ukrainian crisis. The Russians need not lift a finger, save for leaking some choice phonecalls between the idiot ambassador and the assistant secretary of state. They are truly the most talentless crop of politicians ever, bereft of ideas and bought and paid for by special interests.

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 16:32 | 4468524 Boomberg
Boomberg's picture

"These feelings and memories do not really exist in the USA most likely because of the very diverse ethnic backgrounds creating a melting pot rather than one group that remembers another."

Armstrong obviously doesn't spend much time in the southern US, maybe not ethnic memories but regional and cultural feelings and memories. 

Sun, 02/23/2014 - 20:48 | 4469205 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

Putin could do the same thing he did in Georgia and deploy troops in an effort to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

It's a sad state of affairs really. Russian puppets battling EU puppets. Not a single party standing for the interests of Ukraine. The country could split in two with everything left of Kiev enterring EU and with the eastern block joining Russia. All that'll be missing is the "Ukraine wall" going straight down the middle.

Mon, 02/24/2014 - 09:57 | 4470437 Reader1
Reader1's picture

Does anyone find it amusing to hear Ukrainians chanting "Ross-I-Yah! Ross-I-Yah!" the same way we chant "U-S-A! U-S-A!"?  There's something kind of amusing about it.  I wonder if they chant it at sporting events and eating competitions, like we do, too?

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