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This Man's $600,000 Facebook Disaster Is A Warning For All Small Businesses

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Mike Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

It continues to amaze me how people are completely ignoring what appears to be an incredible amount of shadiness inherent in Facebook’s business model. Whether or not this is intentional click fraud, it is clear that advertisers are not getting what they think they are getting. They won’t be fooled forever, and once they wake up to the money being wasted on fake “likes” and “clicks,” I’m curious to see what happens to their revenue.

The following article from SF Gate is a perfect followup to my post from a couple weeks ago: How Much of Facebook’s Ad Revenue is From Click Fraud?

Perhaps the most shocking passage from the entire article is the following:

Naturally, Brar began disputing his bill with Facebook. He wanted his clicks audited by a third party, to see how many were genuine. Then he discovered that Facebook’s terms of service forbid third-party verification of its clicks. That’s something all advertisers should be aware of before they spend a penny on Facebook.


Facebook is different from the rest of the online ad industry, which follows a standard of allowing click audits by third parties like the IAB, the Media Ratings Council or Ernst & Young.

Um, ok then…

Now more from the SF Gate:

Raaj Kapur Brar runs a small but successful empire of online fashion magazines from his base just outside Toronto. Some of his titles are huge online brands, such as Fashion & Style Magazine, which has 1.6 million Facebook fans.


That’s more fans than Elle magazine has.


Recently, however, Brar has fallen out of love with Facebook. He discovered  that his Facebook fanbase was becoming polluted with thousands of fake likes from bogus accounts. He can no longer tell the difference between his real fans and the fake ones. Many appear fake because the users have so few friends, are based in developing countries, or have generic profile pictures.

At one point, he had a budget of more than $600,000 for Facebook ad campaigns, he tells us. Now he believes those ads were a waste of time.

Facebook declined multiple requests for comment on this story.


Brar’s take is a cautionary one because Facebook has 25 million small businesses using its platform for one marketing purpose or another. Many of them are not sophisticated advertisers — they are simply plugging a credit card number into the system and hoping for the best. This is what can happen if you don’t pay careful attention to contract language, or the live, real-time results your campaigns on Facebook are having.


Here’s how Brar believes it went down: He became interested in advertising on Facebook in 2012, and he took it seriously. He went to Facebook’s local Toronto office where he was trained to use the advertising interface. They set up the campaign, and ran a small “beta” test. Then, in late October Brar pulled the trigger on a massive push through Facebook’s Ads Manager. He used Bitly and Google Analytics to measure the number of clicks his campaign was generating.


The results were disastrous, Brar says.


Facebook’s analytics said the campaign sent him five times the number of clicks he was seeing arrive on his sites, which Brar was monitoring with Bitly, Google Analytics, and his own web site’s WordPress dashboard. There was a reasonable discrepancy between the Bitly and Google numbers, Brar says, but not the five-fold margin between Google’s and Facebook’s click counts.


At one point, data from Facebook indicated his ads had delivered 606,000 clicks, but the site itself registered only 160,000 incoming clicks from Facebook, according to data supplied by Brar. (160,000 clicks is a not insignificant return. After all, these are not clicks on a mere Facebook page, these are users who clicked through to an off-Facebook site.)


“I don’t know what to say, right? This is a huge loss. This ran for four days, then we just stopped the campaign,” Brar says.


Then, things got worse. Even though Fetopolis wasn’t advertising, the likes and new followers kept on piling up. Normally, an advertiser would be pleased at such a result, but every time Brar checked a sample of the new fans he found people with dubious names; a picture of a flower as a profile shot; and fewer than 10 friends — classic signs of a fake profile.


Naturally, Brar began disputing his bill with Facebook. He wanted his clicks audited by a third party, to see how many were genuine. Then he discovered that Facebook’s terms of service forbid third-party verification of its clicks. That’s something all advertisers should be aware of before they spend a penny on Facebook: Facebook has operated this way for a long time, and has a page for advertisers explaining in more depth why third-party click reporting may not match Facebook’s click counts. Essentially, Facebook suggests, if clicks are not measured in exactly the same way over the same time intervals then there will always be discrepancies.


Facebook is different from the rest of the online ad industry, which follows a standard of allowing click audits by third parties like the IAB, the Media Ratings Council or Ernst & Young.

This will all be exposed by the market sooner or later. I’m just shocked it is taking so long for people to put two and two together.

Full article here.


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Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:29 | 4477024 Magnix
Magnix's picture

And Facebook price plunges!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:40 | 4477091 TerminalDebt
TerminalDebt's picture

I thought I was the only one with 23 fakebook accounts

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:43 | 4477105 lineskis
lineskis's picture

Facebook fraud brilliantly explained here by Veritasium:

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:47 | 4477120 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



Brar sounds like a sucker; $600,000.00 to advertise on FakeBook???!!!


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:48 | 4477130 The Juggernaut
The Juggernaut's picture

I made this program that creates FB pages and gives positive remarks for businesses.  Its $15,000.  FB is a joke.  Its a platform to get your face for the face-recognition machines.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:53 | 4477160 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



I now have a program that creates Up Arrows for ZH comments; I will provide 100 Up Arrows to your comment for the low price of 20 U.S. Dollars.

[now get to work Raji and Ahmed...]

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:04 | 4477216 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

I have one that creates Down Arrows. It's 5 bucks. I have several satisfied customers who would be happy to provide references. Please contact fonestar for further details.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:05 | 4477219 fonestar
fonestar's picture

A fonestar is standing by.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:20 | 4477280 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

I'll give you +1 for being quick on the response.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:28 | 4477316 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

I gotta give both of you up arrows.  How does anyone keep up with all this stuff?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:34 | 4477318 zaphod
zaphod's picture

There are now sites that consolidate all the ways to buy fake twitter followers

Many of these offer around 100,000 followers for less than $500. That is chump change for anyone that wants to promote themselves by inflating their influence. 

Why should you do this? Here is the explaination direct from the website

"Buying Twitter Followers is a shortcut. It’s a way to increase your Twitter Account’s social credibility and can give your business, career a great kick-start, or even an ego boost. While it’s not really socially acceptable, it’s well known that million of people around the world have bought them."


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:48 | 4477417 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Circle jerk anyone?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:34 | 4477639 negative rates
negative rates's picture

One circle jerk, coming up!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:45 | 4477711 IBelieveInMagic
IBelieveInMagic's picture

Google is no better. They keep showing me banner ads for websites that I have already independently visited hoping that I will just click on their banner ads to generate free money for them. In my view this is not in the interest of the advertiser -- why should they pay for a visitor who has already been to their site without google's clickthru? Unethical practice.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:07 | 4477815 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

In past, Boris is click on ad for free chat with beautiful Thai woman... but is all fake!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:14 | 4477849 wintermute
wintermute's picture

Never used Faceboob, but I hear some people like it.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 20:05 | 4478072 thestarl
thestarl's picture

All these deadshits on social media are the same people totally oblivious to what the NSA and the like are up to.


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:19 | 4478356 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

And guess how they vote...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:28 | 4478763 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

My own FB page. An interesting experience it's been.

Feel free to like... ;-)

It has been instructive, some thigns happen just because of th esheer volume of people on the network, also because of all the people that ONLY use FB/WhatsApp for communication.


Was dragged into in kicking and screaming by my team. I'll say this, if you have nothing to hide in your virtual face to the word, it's okay.



Wed, 02/26/2014 - 06:48 | 4479373 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture





Maria Hines Rangel is've been warned.


My work is done here.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:32 | 4477940 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

But Boris, why Thai, when thre are so many beautiful Russian women waiting for you to click them?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:30 | 4478549 ILLILLILLI
ILLILLILLI's picture

I keep clicking around in hopes of getting the Snorg t-shirt redhead to show up in my ad-spaces, but no luck so far.


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:54 | 4478857 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture



I have Schiff Radio ads to the left and right of me. And Im already suscribed to Sciffs show...


Fail Google

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:01 | 4477793 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:21 | 4477892 Handful of Dust
Handful of Dust's picture

So it's not true that 44 Billion people "like" Jason Beeper?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:25 | 4478369 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

FarceBerg dead ahead!

Seriously, how can this stock be worth moar than a couple of bucks? The share dilution was ridiculous the last year or two.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 20:14 | 4478102 grunk
grunk's picture

Up arrows AND down arrows?

Isn't that a perpetual motion machine?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:52 | 4478842 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

 I'll give you +1 for being quick on the response.

f*nestar is a quasi-bot.  He's admitted as much.

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 00:21 | 4478950 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

I just bought 1,000 down ZH arrows on Ebay and flipped them [at a Fat profit] to some guy in DC named sunstein.....

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 00:57 | 4479054 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Sunstein is all about the hot algo on algo action

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 07:03 | 4479389 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture




Mirror mirror on the wall.....who's the sexist communist of them all?


Mirror: That would be Van Jones....sorry Cass.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:36 | 4477354 Blano
Blano's picture

Self deprecating humor helps your cause.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:03 | 4477484 max2205
max2205's picture


Wed, 02/26/2014 - 07:05 | 4479390 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Mr. Lay.....are you smoking crack?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:12 | 4477532 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:35 | 4477956 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

fonestar, do you have a beeper that goes off every time "fonetar" appears in a ZH comment?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:09 | 4478323 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Good one fonestar. Hey BTW have you heard about this new crypto-currency that is called Bitcoin?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:42 | 4477374 Woodhippie
Woodhippie's picture

I have one that down votes fonestar that's free.  Whether or not you even read his post.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:37 | 4477964 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

Thankyou very much but that would take away the joy I get when downvoting fonestar .

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:57 | 4478050 Handful of Dust
Handful of Dust's picture
Fukushima's radioactive ocean water arrives at West Coast


Radiation from Japan's leaking Fukushima nuclear power plant has reached waters offshore Canada, researchers said at the annual American Geophysical Union's Ocean Sciences Meeting in Honolulu.

Never thought I'd see this reported as aHeadline on MSN News web site.


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:56 | 4478866 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

This is garbage

They used very sensitive equipment to measure this shit.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:26 | 4477911 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture



Thewre 'is No' keeping up anymore [thanks for your INQUIRY]...

In the 'SPIRIT' of your question... There is only one reply...

There 'is' no more 'CHEESE' ~ there are only 'CHEESEPOPES'...

I hope that helps... your friend, H~FS~B...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:05 | 4477217 fonestar
fonestar's picture


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:05 | 4477506 InflammatoryResponse
InflammatoryResponse's picture

no just "Zuckered"




Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:41 | 4477671 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

Zucker is a Rothschild heading an army of Fakebook Bots...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:14 | 4477848 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture


Wed, 02/26/2014 - 06:49 | 4479379 jmp esp
jmp esp's picture

Actually it's Zuckolded.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:56 | 4477178 _SILENCER
_SILENCER's picture

Its a platform to get your face for the face-recognition machines.

Absolutely goddamn right

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:31 | 4477333 Againstthelie
Againstthelie's picture

And thank's to WhatsApp all phone numbers can finally be associated with the sheeple's faces.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:31 | 4477334 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

How can anyone keep up with all there is to keep up on.  The answer is, "They can't, but the machines can..."

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:03 | 4477494 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Why bother keeping up. The lies are bigger and the fraud expands, but when you boil it all down it's all bullshit.

If you have 100 friends, you have no friends.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:19 | 4478357 pods
pods's picture

Depends on your definitions.

Friend:  Someone you call up to help you move a couch.

Good Friend: Some you call up to help you move a body.


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:09 | 4478493 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



Permission to borrow that?


+great quotes

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:16 | 4477861 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

Big Brother has the sheep self reporting with all these apps.  Saves HUGE amounts of oney and manpower compiling data.  Inever fail to be astounded at what people will post about themselves - crap they'd bve OUTRAGED about if posted by others......'Look at me shitfaced about to pass out.... here I am doing a line of coke....I didn't go to ANY classes this month.....'  Then the assholes wonder why nobody will hire them.  Hint - it isn't just gov that uses these aps - potential employers look at them too - along with your girlfriend/bopyfriend, spouse plannign for divorce, and a whole lot more....

Amazing how much 'venture capital' funding for 'social networking' came from fronts used by the Pentagon and NSA.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:45 | 4477395 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

i know so many people that usead blockers so they never see any ad's ever, then they go on to sites like facebook and "like" everything just to distort the data.  nothing is as it seems on FB.  Advertising on FB is a complete waste of money.  Just because i Like a Mercedes 550 cls doesn't mean i have the means or intent to purchase one

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:10 | 4477525 Kayman
Kayman's picture

"they go on to sites like facebook and "like" everything just to distort the data."

I do the same with Google- I constantly click onto shit I will NEVER buy and Google, like the poorly machined algorith that it is, sends me "information".  I am so easily amused. 

You would think that advertizers would eventually come to realize that the internet is completely fake.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 20:25 | 4478137 _SILENCER
_SILENCER's picture

If the internet ever finds out I like full, natural tits, I'll know this AI shit is for real.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:23 | 4478741 motorollin
motorollin's picture

From everything I see, there are always horny single girls in my area!

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 05:54 | 4479346 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Yeah, strange how so many beautiful pornstars decided to make rural SW Minnesota their home!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:16 | 4478345 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

I have simply run out of new porn searches. Apparently there is not one sick disgusting and vile thing that somebody does not use to jack one off. I mean you can put in dead goats-trains-squirrel-dirty shoe-fattie and someone has a fetish for it.

Not only that but I now have have blisters.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:20 | 4478730 effendi
effendi's picture

I Googled those terms. There is no fetish for what you describe.

There is however a dead goats appreciation society (womyn getting off banging drums).

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 04:24 | 4479274 New World Chaos
New World Chaos's picture

I let flatmates and friends borrow my laptop.  The algos think I spend all my free time on Facebook slot machine games, Warhammer, grotty basement pornos, and watching bitchfights on Youtube.  Yup.  Plugged into the Matrix I am. 

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:42 | 4478412 fedupwhiteguy
Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:44 | 4478598 laomei
laomei's picture

Working in market research, here's what's I've seen happen to budgets over the past, oh, let's call it 7 years now.

Social media obviously has a role to play, and companies with budgets being cut and people being let go are told "Here's a pile of money to spend on social and only social".  Traditional methods which worked great just don't have the funding, but social shit does.  So how is this to be exploited?  Well, they can piss it all away but at the same time they have to be able to show ROI.  With traditional methods, there are all kinds of models and methods to determine effectiveness... with social? Not so much.  Small brands that cover a tiny niche and have no real money... sure, you can show it.  Large brands looking to blow a few million a year on social while blowing hundreds of millions on other advertising... not so much.  But you can't show up in a meeting and give your presentation of "here's how much we spent for 'social' and let's pretend we know what it did".  I mean, at the crux of it, sure, you can, but you have to be able to justify it somehow.  Your suppliers need the projects, your own staff needs the workload, or it all just gets slashed, people are let go and the few remaining are in an even tighter spot than they were already.

Enter social bullshittery 101.  What happened is some genius out there decided that lacking any real ability to guage ROI, they would focus on telling a narrative composed of "likes" "followers" and the ever invasive bullshit which is "awareness".  That's right, I have seen, even given presentations that lay out their ROI in terms of followers and likes.  And if a campaign is obviously failing, you take a few hundred bucks and buy those followers and likes.  Or pathetic marketing campaigns like "like us and get a coupon".  The problem with that of course, is that either it's a deep enough discount that you are sacrificing your margins to get it, or you are targetting people who were already going to buy even without the damned coupon, good job morons.  The cruz of marketing is basically slapping lipstick on a pig to make it fuckable.  Brand A and Brand B each want to build some loyal base to their basically identical pigs.  But the secret is, there is no real loyalty to speak of.  It's all just poaching.  In fact, by putting shit on sale with those gimmicks, tends to HURT a brand more than help it.  It turns it into a commodity, a joke.  Miss a sale? Well, now I'm going to wait for the next one.  Oh another brand has a sale for the same fucking thing? I'll get that one instead.  Once you apply the models and do the math, virtually all of these campaigns do more harm than they help.  And therefore, to justify it, you turn to "likes" and "followers" and then do hilarious projections on growth.  Once a company starts spamming you with their stupid shit you never wanted in the first place, you just block it.  Me personally? I don't just block it, I boycott it.  Leave me the fuck alone, I'll buy things when I need them and I refuse to buy a brand, I just want quality and durability.  And I'm not alone in this.  And it's getting worse.  As those projections fail, the result has not been to rethink the idiocy, it's been to go full retard.  Larger systems, more data digging, trying to figure out what's wrong with the models and projections and dig into the big data.  Those services out there that offer them? 99.9% of them are absolute garbage.  And the ones that are actually quite good have limited application.  It's the job of consultants to sell it off, link it to the social spend, make the purseholders feel all trendy and hip, and then link any good quarter to social, while selling a narrative on a bad quarter as to why more social is needed.  All the while avoid the fact that in the end, it's all bullshit.


Surely, this will end well.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:19 | 4478726 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

I like quality.  However if I see a designer label I don't buy it. What am I a fucking billboard?  They are not paying me to advertise their brand.  I wwuld never buy Ralph Lauren crap. That horse makes me sick and idiots wear it with pride while RL laughs all the the way to the bank

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 00:00 | 4478877 laomei
laomei's picture

Exactly. It's one thing if it's a small hidden tag for your own reference.  But slapping logos on everything.. you are paying to be a walking billboard, how retarded is that?

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 00:02 | 4478886 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Thanks for that comment.. interesting

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 06:12 | 4479358 mvsjcl
mvsjcl's picture

The impetus for the use of social "tools" is coming from the boardroom. That's all that needs to be said.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:41 | 4477681 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

Many of them are not sophisticated advertisers — they are simply plugging a credit card number into the system and hoping for the best.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL and we're supposed to feel sorry for these imbeciles?

Many of them are not sophisticated pirana fishermen-they simply dangle their balls in the river and hope for the best.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:45 | 4477998 tenpanhandle
tenpanhandle's picture

That is the only time a fisherman wishes for no bites.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:12 | 4478503 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



Many of them are not sophisticated pirana fishermen-they simply dangle their balls in the river and hope for the best.


ZH may be losing some of its edge, not the posters.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 20:15 | 4478106 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

FB is a joke.  Its a platform to get your face for the face-recognition machines.

The reality is FB is probably the biggest repository of cat pictures if anything these days. The NSA should be in the lost and found cat poster business by default since that also means their database has to be clogged with cat pictures including the backups and can associate them with their owners. The stupidty of 'national security'.


Wed, 02/26/2014 - 06:15 | 4479363 mvsjcl
mvsjcl's picture

Facebook is a relational database.

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 07:01 | 4479387 jmp esp
jmp esp's picture

So? It's a database populated by legions of idiots. Anyone who has used Facebook should realize most of the data is junk.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:54 | 4477162 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Brar is just one of millions of business owners to be FaceFukked - it will all come out in the wash, after FaceFart's "shareholders" have been fleeced.

p.s. - Fuckerberg was proclaiming that WhatsApp is worth more than 19 billion USD yesterday - you know, that company Zuck bought that is a relic of a bygone era when people actually had to pay any additional fee for their text message service.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:09 | 4477229 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

FaceBooks challenge was that they had to find a way to generate ad revenue... and turns out they did.

Suckerberg style...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:29 | 4477319 tickhound
tickhound's picture

It, and by it I mean in cahoots, hoped and tried to make NSAbook(s) a utility... Like an old school phone service, or gas bill. Our dollars have gone to subsidize this end. Didn't stick.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:28 | 4477305 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture



Anyone stupid enough to commit $600K of his business...

On nebulous "likes" and "clicks"...

Deserves to get FaceFucked by that slimy Suckerberg!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:30 | 4477326 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Pay-per-click advertising is one of the biggest scams to have evolved in the last 15 years. It really went full blown rigged game due to FaceFarce and about the year 2007.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:28 | 4477592 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Learning isn't always pleasant.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:59 | 4477785 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Or cheap...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:19 | 4477883 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

Ha!  Tuition, I call it.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:16 | 4478508 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture



but all my tuition taught me I did't learn nothn'



Wed, 02/26/2014 - 07:38 | 4479413 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

A much better alternative to WhatsApp has been around for some time... and still the Suckerberg bought it for 19 BILLION of the Fed's confetti papers... the only explanation in addition to the Tribe's money channeling out of Farcebook


Telegram Messenger is a Berlin-based,  free and partially open source cross-platform messenger with a focus on security. 

Telegram users can exchange encrypted and self-destructing messages, photos, videos and DOCUMENTS (ALL file-types supported).

Telegram is officially available for Android and iOS (including tablets and no-wifi devices).

UNOFFICIAL clients for Windows Phone, as well as a WEB version, OS X version and a Windows desktop client are available from independent developers using the Telegram API.


- Powerful: Telegram has NO limits on the size of your media and chats

- Ability to send DOCUMENTS (ALL file-types supported) and multiple photos

- Distributed: Telegram servers are spread worldwide for security and speed

- Open: Telegram has an open API and protocol free for everyone

- Free: Telegram is free forever. No ads. No subscription fees

- Cloud-Based: Telegram lets you access your messages from multiple devices and cloud sync between devices

- Private: Telegram messages are heavily encrypted and can self-destruct

- Has mobile versions, desktop versions and browser extensions

- Groups for 200 members

- Message read status: 1 check = sent, 2 checks = read (opened)

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:26 | 4477306 KickIce
KickIce's picture

Wonder no more how the ponzi lives on.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:37 | 4478574 More_sellers_th...
More_sellers_than_buyers's picture

pool>>>im with you...I run a business....if anyone caught me spending 600k on facebook I would be shot did joseph jett work there?


Wed, 02/26/2014 - 04:11 | 4479268 ebear
ebear's picture


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 16:52 | 4477154 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

Madoff > Zuckerberg > Greenspan > [GOOGLE Board of Directors] > Bernanke > Blankfein > Yellen > Fisher >Rothschild's > Warburg > Schiff > Kuhn & Loeb > [OR ~ other [NEVER TO BE MENTIONED IN THE 'CONTROLLED' msm' MEDIA families']... of The [non] Federal [non] Reserve]...


Am I 'POSSIBLY ' missing something here?


Fuck ME ~ by way of a downvote BY 'the shill 'VD' ... for even bringing the subject up!...


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:02 | 4477203 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

Hey HY

You forgot Icahn, Fink, Tepper, Katzenberg, Geffen, Iger, Kohn, Comcast CEO, Linkedin CEO, Yelp CEO holy fuck I am fumbling because you're writing is similar to Francis the great

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:19 | 4477276 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

I don't know anything about Francis... <see below>... I just say what's on my mind...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:29 | 4477317 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

sir, you are like the beatles....its great no matter what it is...~~

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:59 | 4477465 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Welcome back, HyB.   :)

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:00 | 4477473 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Welcome back francis , still waltzing tildes ~~~

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:21 | 4477562 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

Nobody EVER did it better than Liam Clancy ~~~

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:24 | 4477898 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture




FS always said it was to keep the text below the arrows.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 20:07 | 4478084 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

THAT he always did... ALWAYS stay below the arrows... [good idea]!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:48 | 4477389 J Pancreas
J Pancreas's picture

I was quite the fan of Francis before he got the boot. Too bad ZH went all-PC on him. I guess we found that even amazing sites like the Hedge have masters to please - otherwise F_S would still be ranting on here and opening minds.

My real question is why ZH allows douchebags like homostar and vd to continue yammering their slop from their cock slobbering mouths but F_S got banned??

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:05 | 4477502 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Are you fucking kidding me?  fonestar is three times the virtual man Francis Sawyer was.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:08 | 4477516 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

well at least both you and francis have the same amount of posters that responds to just gets lots of green arrows and one that gets tons of red arrows.


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:14 | 4477539 fonestar
fonestar's picture

What did "Francis Sawyer" ever expose?  Nothing?

What was fonestar right about (since sub $50 BTC)?  Everything.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:23 | 4477569 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Yes foney, you exposed what it's like to be a 'cheesedeacon' wannabe.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:49 | 4477725 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

francis_sawyer 'EXPOSED' nothing...


There should be NO DOUBT that any 'digital texts' that were EVER produced by this... [OBVIOUS ~ 'BOT' ~ type, that ONLY a 'tech wizard'... such as yourself... could EVER be 'schooled' in ~ HOME~WISE or otherwards... make endeavor to become 'booted' ~ [under the auspices of for the'UNTRUTH'] ~ from a site like ZH ~ which, [apparently], is ONLY interested in the TRUTH... & which... of course... is EVIDENCED ny the NON~STOP click ads for 'MONSANTO' that HYBRASilian has been exposed to for the past 2 weeks...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:03 | 4477804 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Hybras, I miss slewie as much as your former digital self
but would rather have any of your re-incarnations talk plain
English or the American pidgin version thereof.

No need to hide nor run, they are on your heels anyway so talk as clearly as your speech would demand.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:31 | 4477937 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

Slewie.. LongSOUPLine... etc. ~ deserve their day in the sun...


I'm MOST miffed about hedgeless_horseman... right now... Even though I'm NEW ~ I carry that torch...


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:48 | 4478011 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

He would get some 20 junks on a rather mundane argument,
nothing I have seen before being treated onto HH.

He has been spoiled for long on his special status and this must have truly hurt. He`ll be back, with a vengeance,
rest assured. :-)

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 20:11 | 4478093 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

no doubt... hedgless_horseman is the one I'm thinking about now...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 20:58 | 4478280 centerline
centerline's picture

Slewie got real cryptic there in the end.  Wish I was smart enough to figure out what the hell he was talking about.

What happened to HH?  I must have missed something.  Always enjoyed his posts - although I am a little jealous of the resources he clearly has.  Must be a boomer who rode the wave the right way.  Kudos to him of course.  I am an X-er who missed that wave and only caught the yard sale.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:03 | 4478294 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Slewie was in crazy crypic mode a while back and started talking about options. I asked him an options question and he gave me a completely lucid and non cryptic answer. It blew me away.

As for HH. He said when FS got booted that he was going to go find a new watering hole. Then he disappeared. Then after a while he came back. Then he was basically a contributing author on here. Now he's gone again. I just hope anyone that find another watering hole reports back, because this sure seems like the only one.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:13 | 4478336 centerline
centerline's picture

I don't know of any other solid places either.  Seen quite a few people get the ban hammer here over the last couple of years though.  Some after quite a long time of posting the same messages.  As if something changed here at ZH as opposed to the messages.  That is a bit concerning of course.  This place has been waaaaayyyyyy toooooo confirmation bias for my taste lately.  

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:37 | 4478376 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

@fonz [you know that YOU, kito, Dr. Engali & many others REALLY HAD IT GOING ON around here]... Well ~ Here...


Within the last 6 posts that hedgeless_horseman ever posted...


Now ~ I don't know about anything [because I'm NEW here]... But WTF?



But ALAS ~ you have 'VD, Flakmeister, & fonestar' [so you have THAT going 4u]... Shit like that MATTERS [in some universe]...

& on that note...

Ask yourself whatever happened to:


Potemkin Villiage Idiot

Dethrone the Dictaphone

Richard Parker


HYBRASIL may sink under the seas yet again [I'm afraid] :-(... It's a PHANTOM [even, probably, as you read this]...


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:45 | 4478418 centerline
centerline's picture

I remember that thread.  Fonz was right on about MyRA.  His concerns are front and center here.

HH I think tipped a little towards the jewish thing at one point I think (didn't check to see if my memory is solid here... too lazy).  If that was the cause for any ban, god help us.  I could only hope he left on his own then.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:02 | 4478470 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Me and Centerline and Doc and Kito etc are just like a poker game that runs in perpetuity. You sit down with us and have a beer and throw a few bucks down and make fun of each other. Some of these other guys were real characters, Not many got the chance to know him but I speak to Whiteshadowmovement aka dimeshowmenthatwove offline. Hands down the smartest person I have run into in this world. Hybrasil you and him ran into each other once and after a few back and forths you had a friendly go of it.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:11 | 4478499 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

as it SHOULD be... as ALWAYS... between MEN... [may ZH 'keep' you fonz & kito & Doc]... You're what it makes it worth logging on... ~HB

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:21 | 4478525 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

much appreciated man. Same goes both ways. Always did. You know what's interesting? That dude I referenced, who has since become a very good friend of mine, signed on to ZH because of a conversation he saw you and I having. You were pounding on me about something and at the same time you understood the prdicament I was in (having to try to "make some coin in this world"). So that conversation with you ended up being a game changer for me. So I owe you one for that. 

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:30 | 4478547 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

You don't OWE me anything [Isn't that the POINT of the discourse of EACH & EVERY ONE of us ~ ' NOT to 'owe']?...



I'd only want want [for you & your daughters & your wife], what you'd want for my elderly parents, sisters, brothers, neices & nephews...


PEACE... & [the chance] for prosperity...


I don't wish for ANY especial 'LUCK' in this endeavor... Just... PLEASE!... If you don't work AGAINST me, then I'm your FRIEND!... f_s


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:33 | 4478563 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Listen someone is starting to junk us, prob for going OT. So let's get back to the very important topic of the fuckin moron who spent 600k for fake likes and then was surprised to find out it was not lucrative. How does that make you feel?


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:44 | 4478599 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

FUCK DAT DUDE :-) ~ lol... [& his MOM] ~ juss tryin 2 keep da quality control up in up heah!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:51 | 4478627 centerline
centerline's picture

That serial junker was around quite some time ago.  No worries.  lol.

Thanks for the kind words Fonz.

Is okay if I feel sort of numb about they guy who spent 600k on Faceplant?  (Maybe ought to check my pulse here - or have another beer... mmmm.... I'll take the beer).

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:36 | 4478398 centerline
centerline's picture

Just to add on...

Trav666 loved to get on about minorities.  FS was all over the jewish angle.  I never noticed a long time ago the racial (religous) discrimination disclaimer here on ZH.  I dont know when it popped up.  But I do recall posters throwing it out like they were policing the joint.  Lots of people disappearing over the last year or so as well.

Seems to me that something changed here.  Probably not the first time either that some "chain" has gotten yanked.  And that feeling bothers me.  This isn't the old ZH.  This is something different.


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:03 | 4478437 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

f_s WAS NOT all about the jewish angle... If there was an 'agenda' there ~ it was all about 'WHY THE MATHEMATICAL IMPOSSIBILITY'? [which is, the underlying case of about 100% of the 'conspiracy THEORY turn 'CONSPIRACY FACT' topics threads EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DAY on ZH]!...


f_s asked questions...


NONE of those questions were ever addressed [even upon PLEADING to do so]... MsCreant & kito made the best efforts towads that end... BOTH of them are 'COOL'...


None of these questions ~ I suspect ~ will EVER be answered [in our lifetimes]... There IS NO FINAL 'SOLUTION' [there are only questions & responses]... If everyone could get on base with that, then we could strive towards BALANCE... If not [& even if the 'power numerator' of that equation SKEWS, unfairly, in the other direction], there will be IMBALANCE...


It's for people MORE INTELLIGENT [than myself] to determine that outcome...


Personally ~ I have ZERO BIAS other than TRUTH... MY NAME IS



Marcus Aurelius had a DREAM for Rome... This is not it... THIS IS NOT IT!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 22:45 | 4478604 centerline
centerline's picture

point taken...wont claim my interpretation is perfect (as I also won't claim to be any sort of intellectual).

In diverting to the bigger question, it is a paradox I think.  There is no real solution.  There is no utopia.

BUT, why build systems that have mathematical flaws?  Because they are consistent with nature?  Or because they can exploit it?  Human nature suggests the latter I think.  We are animals at the core.  I think we will get our answer though.  I just dont think we will do anything to address it.  We are not ready.  Maybe never will be.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:19 | 4478725 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

There is a 'DREAM' that was Rome [ZH] ~ it shall be realized!...

Oh no WAIT! [fonestar, VD, & Flakmeister think OTHERWISE]...

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 00:48 | 4479030 john39
john39's picture

big search engines like google will not link your site if it is deemed non-pc.   its how mind control works in a NWO fascist world.  you don't need governments to censor...  the channels of communication are corporate owned, and they can easily strangle you if you are a commercial site.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:08 | 4478281 centerline
centerline's picture

oops - double post thing.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:12 | 4477526 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar & the 375 million from Mt. Gox?

Where's Satoshi?

What color is the boat house at Hereford and what's in the case?

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:11 | 4477528 Pheonyte
Pheonyte's picture

The line is crossed when people start bad mouthing the Tylers. They tolerate a lot of shit, but you better not insult them. That's what did in Cult of Reason, methinks.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:22 | 4477567 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

Yeah he just dissappeared. I noticed the boards have less crap being posted. Fonestar still here though but then again, I have never down arrowed him once.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:17 | 4477867 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Cunt of Treason out ?

Good riddance if it were true.

But you know: first they came for the cults, then reason,
then the rest of all those guilty by association for hanging
out at the very same site...

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 01:22 | 4479099 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

CoR is still here, bitchin about russians over the weekend.

francis_sawyer helped to wake me up.

Rock On HyBr


Stack On


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:19 | 4478354 centerline
centerline's picture

This is supposed to be fight club.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:46 | 4478423 centerline
centerline's picture

ahh, a serial junker.  Now that is more like it!

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:49 | 4477425 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Who is this "Francis"?


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:06 | 4477509 fonestar
fonestar's picture

An idiot.  People on here revere idiocy.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:13 | 4477536 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Ahh, fonestar, you just fell into a trap!  (GW's blog article at top)

Not my red though.  Have a green even though I disagree with you here.  Remember, they are watching you...


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:23 | 4477568 SILVERGEDDON

Yep, that's why you fit right in. Like a yappy little dog, you need kicking all the time.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 21:21 | 4478359 centerline
centerline's picture

Yeah yeah.  But... Fonestar has been a breath of fresh air.  A willing punching bag.  Drawing heat and doing it in style.

I am a Fonestar fan.  Not because I believe in what he believes in (or so he says).  But purely on style.  Rock on Fonestar!  

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 23:31 | 4478771 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

Strange as it may be... I gotta "+1" that...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:47 | 4477718 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

"Who is this "Francis"?"

You got it wrong... his name was Francis Sawyer.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:01 | 4477792 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:31 | 4477936 Professorlocknload
Professorlocknload's picture

And now a martyr.


Wed, 02/26/2014 - 00:06 | 4478896 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Sure can count on you, to warm up the ovens on ZH

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:30 | 4477323 kito
kito's picture

.....and kito....and his family............

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 17:33 | 4477337 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

kito, you're too poor, un-connected and un-jewish like to be included to that list sorry dude.

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:04 | 4477499 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

I don't know what ANYBODY has to say... but...


KITO [was a 'friend' of mine]...

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 19:34 | 4477953 HyBrasilian
HyBrasilian's picture

kito ~ you're STILL a friend of mine... h_b

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 20:38 | 4478189 Againstthelie
Againstthelie's picture

Divided States,

you had a great comment before the censorship for the master race deleted lots of useful posts here. How can I contact you privately?

Thu, 02/27/2014 - 16:03 | 4485993 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

you can reach me here:


Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:44 | 4477703 Spigot
Spigot's picture

I love you, man. Prefect circle jerk of fakes.

That's what this era reminds me of, a total fake job on all levels including (and a sorry excuse it is) those damned bras that make ALL women look like they have a heft set of double dees ...

Wed, 02/26/2014 - 07:24 | 4479403 Random
Random's picture

I see you man, welcome back! /wink cheesepope (i'm fucking amazed nobody noticed, yet they are yelling for you to be ALLOWED back).

Tue, 02/25/2014 - 18:38 | 4477666 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I have more Facebook accounts for my dogs than mine.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!