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NATO Calls Ukraine Developments "Dangerous And Irresponsible", Urges Russia Not To "Escalate Tension"
Russian tat. And now, NATO tit.
- NATO CHIEF SAYS ACTIONS BY ARMED GROUP IN CRIMEA "DANGEROUS AND IRRESPONSIBLE"
- NATO URGES RUSSIA NOT TO DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD "ESCALATE TENSION OR CREATE MISUNDERSTANDING"
And the lie of the day:
- U.S., NATO HAVE NOT DRAWN UP ANY CONTINGENCY PLANS FOR HOW THEY WOULD RESPOND IF RUSSIA INTERVENED IN CRIMEA-NATO'S TOP MILITARY COMMANDER
- THERE IS NO REASON FOR NATO AND RUSSIA TO COMPETE OVER THE FUTURE OF UKRAINE-NATO COMMANDER
Actually, there is, which is precisely why Putin will smile when reading the latest NATO pleadings.
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Where is your pinprick, O?
A bigger balloon calls for a bigger prick.
Vlad is drawing the line this time Obozo!
And he will enforce it like he did with Syria.
Can we stay out of other people's business? Just once?
Looney
Putin must have forgotten we have Joe Biden over here and his vast foreign policy "experience".
How do we get Vlad to be the House Speaker??
Yulia Tymoshenko speaks on Youtube!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYHzwkx1EE&list=UU-Y8tHCwNCHYzGL8iw5IOXA&feature=c4-overview
that's funny! if it weren't so fucking real.
In the end we'll all pay the price because some polical asshole need to show he has the biggest dick.
For better or for worse, we also got Kissinger. Is Zbig still alive?
The Gorns are remarkably long-lived!
It would appear that there are some of us who can't or won't and are unwilling or "unable" to share their reasoning with the rest of us. Democracy in action.
The US military is the military wing of the Global Banking Empire. It has little to do with ensuring the security of the United States.
It's all about establishing private central banks [owned by the usual suspects in Europe] issuing the national, fiat currency as a loan at interest... and it is about Greater Israel....
The petrodollar? Sure, it looks like that in Iraq, and Libya... but the dollar is nearing the end of its life cycle and the desire for some sort of global currency {however structured} through the BIS has been the subject of an awful lot of position papers.
The petrodollar is important to the GBE only to the extent it keeps the US strong enough to field a military that can back up sanctions, fund terror groups, and invade if need be, to help establish the control of the large international banks and their European Jewish owners, and to help balkanize and "roll back" Israel's regional rivals, to lay the ground work for "Greater Israel" according to the Oded Yinon/Clean Break line of plans.
Don't look to the US Congress to stop this crazy train.
It is Israeli occupied territory
I love it when you talk dirty JCB.
Your posts are all the same JCB - ..blah, blah, blah, hate jews, blah, blah, blah, hate USA, blah,blah,blah, want to marry Putin, blah, blah, blah.
Technically... "hate" is an emotional state, and we have no information on that. To date we only have info on what he thinks, to the extent that he has a hypothesis/model and data on which his thoughts are based.
We should therefore stay in the hypothesis testing/validation mode, to get positive or negative consensus on said model. Technically speaking. :-)
All else is just "stirring the pot", in a clockwise rotation (to his counter-clockwise rotation). ;-)
nato is in no position to stop Russia. all bluff, and Putin obviously is calling it.
And Fold em.
Thanks for playing, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.
Love Vlad.
interesting bedfellows. "Churchill and Stalin...bff's."
I agree..."love is in the air" and finally we can all breathe now that we know who wears the real jackboots around here.
Churchill and Stalin do not have shit on Bush and Blair's love affair.
If you have never seen this, you are in for a treat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsVPRNpKruo
NATO swore it couldn't muster forces to stop a mob of YouTube video protesters in Benghazi.
All these warnings are giving me a headache.
I think Ukrainians want to Govern themselves. Give them some time to figure it out. Russia and USSA should not interfere (wishfull thinking huh........).
A message to those in Ukraine- Film everything. Camera's, phones, pictures. Spread the word through images that can not be denied. Images are powerful.
And we are all witnesses to this.
yeah,but if it goes against the official narritave as desired by the big boys your youtube vid will get deleted or pushed so far down the rankings it may as well have been deleted.
Disclaimer: I am long anti-Russian youtube vids
They were governing themselves, through something called "elections". Elections were coming next year. Then the EU/US decided to take over by pouring billions of dollars to support a coup d'etat, and they got it, at the hands of armed neo-Nazis from the West Ukraine, which largely sided with Hitler.
The people in Crimea and South/East Ukraine don't want a Fascist regime. So they may leave. Thanks for playing
"I think Ukrainians want to Govern themselves."
They won't get that with the E.U.nited States.
So Pro Russian citizens fighting for their elected government is dangerous, but USA armed and backed thugs are super dooper.
And they think we believe this non stop bullshit from the psycopathic elite
Clearly you and a number of others here have neither Trial Law experience, nor seen this movie before:
"The party that frames the debate and defines the terms, wins the trial 9 times out of 10".
And it's not like DC or NY lack lawyers. Trial, trying or otherwise.
But bombing Libya wasn't dangerous or irresponsible. Isn't that special.
All who have any other opinion, we kiss on the mouth. With love, the Russian Foreign Ministry. http://kor.ill.in.ua/m/400x253/1329450.jpg
well I'm sure those boys with baseball bats and wooden shields will sing hoorah again then...
"well I'm sure those boys with baseball bats and wooden shields will sing hoorah again then..."
Crimea - is not Kiev. In Crimea, these boys get their baseball bats in their pro-Western ass. It is in the best case. In the worst case, they will be sent back on the their wooden shields.
"In comparison with such momentous consequences, was the treaty not a scrap of paper?"
Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg to Sir Edward Goschen 4 August 1914
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/scrapofpaper2.htm
John "I served in Vietnam" Kerry will send a strongly worded letter.
and forget to mail it.
Only NATO can unilaterally invade sovereign countries in the middle of civil wars to secure oil/gas. cough Libya cough
NATO should have been disbanded after the collapse of the Soviet Union. There was no longer a Warsaw Pact. What we have now is a New World Army to back the NWO. Makes sense to me..
The Soviet Union renamed itself Community of Independent (hahah) States and soon to be re-renamed Eurasian Community or some such.
A red rose by any other name...
soon to be re-renamed Eurasian Community
We've always been at war with them...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasianism
Before war broke out between Russia and Georgia in 2008, Aleksandr Dugin visited South Ossetia and predicted, "Our troops will occupy the Georgian capital Tbilisi, the entire country, and perhaps even Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula, which is historically part of Russia, anyway." [4]
[4] Road to War in Georgia: The Chronicle of a Caucasian Tragedy, Spiegel, August 25, 2008.
[note the date]
For those thinking the Russing invasion of Crimea is a only a reaction, please, be informed it is part of a plan designed long ago.
If they were really a defensive force to protect Western Europe then NATO definitely would've ended when the Warsaw Pact did. As you noted, it's really just a tool for the empire and a pretense for it to continue will be found for as long as the empire exists.
"If they were really a defensive force to protect Western Europe then NATO definitely would've ended when the Warsaw Pact did. As you noted, it's really just a tool for the empire and a pretense for it to continue will be found for as long as the empire exists."
In the world there is no NATO. In the world there is only the United States and their vassals. I prefer to call a spade a spade.
Actually, NATO should continue to serve the member states as a counterforce to Russia. Albiet, without US help. The Euro-Trash are plenty capable of defending themselves. They aren't the poor beaten Europeans of 1947. They have technology, people, and combined capabilities, including nuclear, that are capable of dealing with the Russian thugs. They no longer need US to fulfill their mission. Let them be about it then.
US should no longer be a member of NATO. The US Taxpayers don't need to fund them either.
well...you can pick up a Castle perrrty cheap these days.
Don't see anybody moving to Russia anytime soon either.
Putin is looking like a wacko.
China "visiting Germany to explore Nazi methodologies" even more so.
"Decadent West."
"A thousand year insurgency against you is better than a ten year one"?
I don't disagree with your comment(s), but Realpolitik does!
THAT'S IT MUTATED INTO ZATO..,. THE BLACK FORCE THAT ACTS A BOGEYMAN FOR THE TRIBE!!!
Hey, listen - NATO just wanted to make sure Libya's gold went to help the people of Libya.
If there's none left its because they spent it all on "infrastructure."
Yeah, that's the ticket!
Dear Vlad: Please don't escalate the tension that we've carefully fomented and escalated. Thanks.
Dear NATO
Ee-dee nah hooy
Sincerely,
Vlad
"Dear NATO
Ee-dee nah hooy
Sincerely,
Vlad"
+1000! :-))
Vlad says Poshyol ty'
Pro Russia forces seize control of much of the area, if they come under fire they request Humanitarian aid from Russia, game over. NATO has no more debt to issue it has all gone to the banks.
Yep, all the debt stores are depleted. No more debt can be created. Ever. <SARC OFF>
Pro west demostrators overthrow government: Good.
Russia involved in same thing: Bad.
Sounds reasonable.
NATO is wetting themselves because they will not and cannot stop Russia proper. Some tin pot with 30 year old Soviet tech, sure. Russia, no.
pods
Losing even a phony war in Europe to Russia will likely have major consequences for the 'alliance' unlike losing the meaningless guerilla war in Afghanistan.
A war within what the Russians consider their turf in Europe will by no means be phony. They will steamroll Eastern Europe. If anyone in the area even looks like supporting NATO he will be steamrolled.
Oh sure, if they lost a "real" war several NATO governments may not even exist anymore and their replacements surely won't be joining a defunct NATO. I just don't think they can survive a phony war either. Even scuttling away now may cause problems so soon after Syria.
Not true. The combined NATO member forces are more than capable of dealing with the Russians. The Russians are in a fairly poor state with most of their major systems operating at around 50% capability. NATO Members could deploy more combat ready forces, farther, with better capability than the Russians. NATO's intelegence and battle space control is really really good. All of this without US participation.
Russian tanks are no match for NATO tanks. Russian pilots and aircraft are no threat to NATO pilots and aircraft. Don't doubt for a second that French, UK, German, Polish infantry couldn't whip the thugs in a fast ground conflict. UK/French Nuclear systems are impressive even by US standards. Additionally, the Russian Navy isn't capable of running with the NATO forces over a period of say 30-45 days (after that neither force is capable of keeping up a high cycle of operations). Their only weakness is the fact they depend on US for almost their entire airlift capability (they don't have to lift tanks across the ocean though, they can move theirs by rail/truck). That would require their command to probably respond with civilian airlift and a fairly imaginative counter armor response. That is certainly doable for them though.
The Europeans, if they stood together would be a very impressive military. Vlad the Putin knows it. He is betting that the Euro-pussies won't push it, but he knows their combined resolve would beat his cobbled together force in a stand up fight.
Ex Cold-Warrior
Thanks IREN.
And what about the Ukrainians?
Ukrainian forces have been attempting to align with the west since the disolution of the Soviet Union. They had worked closely with NATO up until the Ukrainian Gov't was taken over by Russia in the last few years. They can't win a stand up fight with Russian over the Crimea but their problem doesn't have to be fought that way. If Russia launched an invasion of the Crimea it should lead to Russian's economic collpase (because of western countries withdrawing support of Russian Oil/Gas). Also, such an overt act would likely drive off other states, whom Vlad the Putin is trying to court back into his orbit, to establish closer relationships with the west. The Euro-trash may not have the balls to stand up to Russia though. We'll see.
Tactically, Vlad thug Putin should take a long view here. Russia should support the decisions the Ukrainian people are making right now. Then, go back to work subverting their civil gov't just like he has been doing for the last several years.
Pray for the Ukrainian People.
It is nice to see a few people here can still think straight....
A big wildcard is that with the easing of sanctions on Iran, the observed ramp in Iranian exports:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/02/24/iranian-...
will remove some of the leverage that playing oil card would otherwise have for Vlad...
I agree the native Ukranians are in a rough spot, but they have endured far worse in the past...
I don't pray but my thoughts are with them....
Good input IREN. Thanks.
Regardless it sounds like the Ukrainians have too many foreign actors in their midst.
Given what we have seen thus far, how do you think this plays out? Do you think this chess match goes hot?
Two things.....Nato will not enjoy air superiority in a conflict over Russian controlled territory. Those who think otherwise will get a big suprise at the huge attrition Nato forces will suffer.
The other issue is the quality of the Nato soldiers in general and US forces in particular. We will see a dramatic example of how useless and cowardly an army forged in political correctness and full of dags and fykes and led by pikes will do. Better Nato equipment will not come close to making up for well motivated soldiers who pay more than lip service to dying for one's country.
We will also find out how many Ukranians are paid useful idiots of the West and how many will actually fight.
Russia v. NATO: Who's going to win?
There is no hope for Vlad thug Putin. It is physics. If you say the Russians will just use Nukes instead of fight a protracted war, I remind you that the UK and France have very scary submarine ICBM capabilities that the Russians can't touch on a technological level. The French in particular are fully committed to tactical use of Nuclear weapons and have a more robust training program in their use than Russia.
*(most of Russia's GDP will evaporate when open hostilities occur with the west since NATO members are Russia's prime customers. NATO can buy gas and conduct business elsewhere. Russia as we know it would cease to exist and the peasants would be roasting their latest Czar in Red Square by the end of the night...)
"Russia v. NATO: Who's going to win?"
NATO in the war against Russia near the Russian borders, no have even one chance in a thousand. This is will guaranteed defeat NATO, for three reasons:
1. Remoteness of the theater of operations.
2. Inability to use in the war with Russia, U.S. aircraft carriers and aircraft.
3. Extremely low combat capability of the U.S. Army, which since the Vietnam War did not face a real enemy.
As for oil and gas: The Chinese can build oil and gas pipelines from Russia to Beijing earlier than you can spit.
"Russia should support the decisions the Ukrainian people are making right now."
Russian supported the decisions the Ukrainian people are making right now:
Ukrainian people raises in Crimea Russian flags and Russia strongly supports the Ukrainian people. Or do you think that the Ukrainian people is only the inhabitants of Kiev and only those who threw in the police and government buildings Molotov cocktails? LOL
Everyone has a plan-until they get punched in the face.
NATO and the armed forces of NATO members aren't the same thing (so you're obliquely qualifying your assertion). NATO is a paper-pushing planning & coordinating agency, nothing more. NATO isn't even terribly good at the coordinating part (ref Libya), but they do have a fetish for drawing up all sorts of plans to justify their expense accounts, which inevitably arrive at the conclusion that NATO can deliver victory as long as the expense account is topped up.
Neither side can achieve 100% deployment. Whoever is on offense (and foreign territory) in a full-on conventional engagement looses.
I'd rather face the Russian military than a determined NATO. It is a matter of will with NATO.
Russia's military is a rotten corpse.
Hopefully Vlad Thug Putin won't invade Crimea and we will never have to find out......
The was plenty of will for regime change in Libya, and an over-priced, over-promising plan for defeating the antique LDF in a matter of days which, of course, under-delivered. NATO eventually had use the phone-a-friend lifeline and call around to the various non-NATO "Terrorist Mercs R Us" delivery franchises just to kill Q-Daff and never was able to actually defeat the LDF.
The Russian Armed Forces aren't the LDF. And the US military is also a rotting corpse, it just has more knob jockeys keeping the brass polished and perhaps newer toys with certainly inflated price tags.
Russia is on home turf if they move into the Crimea, NATO couldn't win a conventional engagement there. West of the Dnieper is more complex, but US would need MONTHS for a conventional deployment of that scale, and it would be an occupation on less friendly turf with longer supply lines...
Russia could win militarily in Ukraine, the US can't win militarily... or the world could go MAD and everybody loses, and the majority would lose regardless of military outcome in the event of military engagement, but will can't be conjured out thin air, and it doesn't currently exist in either the US or its NATO shop-front.
"will can't be conjured out thin air, and it doesn't currently exist in either the US or its NATO shop-front."
I don't disagree that the West's "will" is a very tenuous thing. I remind everyone here that NATO looked the big bad bear in the eyes and the bear decided it had other things to do than fight NATO. There were years there when the US probably wouldn't have showed up for the fight. NATO stayed the course. That says something interesting.
Go Ukraine. Hang tough! Remember they told Lech Walesa he'd never beat the bear but look who's in charge in Poland.
'Nuff said.
No one wants a war, the problem is the people who make that decision don't care what anyone wants. The only people who have real input are their own advisers and their direct counterparts.
The calculus of advice changes over time, and that has potentially drastic consequences. The Russians have chalked relative victories in Chechnya and Georgia, whereas the US has relative losses in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even the key underlying assumptions have changed in the past two decades, we've gone from MAD to utterly insane with UN recognition of "preemptive war" and Russia adopting NATO's self declared "right" to preemptive nuclear first strikes. Combine that with shifts in demographics and industrialization in Ukraine, and the what the advisers are actually advising becomes less clear, and we're only looking at the military aspect of the basic triumvirate of the Defense, Foreign and Finance Ministries.
"Russia's military is a rotten corpse. " -
Saakashvili thought, munching the fourth tie with NATO symbols.
You don't know what you're talking about. In fact NATO couldn't get naval forces near Crimea without heavy losses, and your assessment of air superiority is absolutely backwards. NATO would not have air superiority. Not without massive commitment by the US which would seriously infringe upon its readiness in other theaters. Even then, it is not a given. Far from it. The newer {+/- 7 yr} Russian fighters and fighter bombers are gorgeous. America's next generation are expensive lemons, while the old reliables are vulnerable to Russia's missile systems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNRMO70Hw0s
You've also left out what shore to ship and anti-aircraft missiles would do to nato forces, not just in the theatre, but from kalingrad.
I can't speak to what armor NATO has ready to roll in Europe, but suspect it would be far more complicated for them to muster than it is fro the Russians. Nor would the Russians fight the fight NATO wants to fight.
But, NATO is simply not going to get into it with the Russians over the Crimea.
What you're describing is a world war 3 scenario, one in which not only would China get involved, but tactical nuclear weapons could be.
If you are done assessing the world from circa 1992, maybe you could explain why self-determination shouldn't apply to Crimea [which is autonomous anyway] or why NATO and the US has a right to intervene to stop that self-determination, but Russia does not have a right to protect ethnic russians in an area that was Russia proper 60 years ago?
There is no indication Russia would try to occupy western ukraine. In essence, it would task its forces, maximally, to provide security for governments in the Eastern provinces and Crimea and to protect their naval bases.
And naturally, there should be a vote in Crimea or other regions who want to become independent from Kiev. Naturally, we can count on NATO not to support that. The hypocrisy is breath taking.
If you think the EU and NATO are looking out for the welfare of the Ukrainian people, you clearly haven't been paying attention. While they should be free to do what they please, they are merely setting themselves up to be raped and abused by the IMF and the Global Banking Empire.
Wake up.
I'm happy to disagree with you. Your view is very conventional from a western "press" perspective. It is my view that it is not accurate and that any open source investigation into the capabilities of the individual countries that comprise NATO (exclusive of the US) would prove my point. NATO is capable of standing up to Vlad thug Putin at any level of economic, covert, or overt warfare, and Vlad thug Putin knows it.
Whether they have the will to stand up to him? We will see..........
It's conventional from a western press perspective? Evidence??
What about from non-press perspecives? lol.
All I know is your assessment of NATO airpower is incorrect. You're also incorrect in assuming that if NATO arrayed such a force it would be Russia fighting alone, or without employing tactical nukes.
As for who's the thug, I suggest you read more than what you've read. Or just watch a short movie film.
Putin is a lot of things, but he's certainly less of a thug and harm to the Russian people than the oligarchs he chased out of the country to the UK, Ukraine and Israel.
Cookie?
Good discussion.
Though I think it's safe to say that no one really knows exactly what or who holds the upper hand in all of this. This could unravel a thousand different ways.
Speaking with any certainty in any of this is pure folly.
We can begin to put pieces together though and any pieces those here can add to the puzzle are more than welcome.
Every little bit helps.
No one wants a full scale balls out conventional war over this.
Not least of all because it would not stay conventional.
And it certainly would not stay limited to the Ukraine or west/sw Russia.
Most of all, the strategic interests of the United States are not, in any signficant way, impacted here. This is manifestly not about the people of Ukraine {I think most people support the idea of self-determination - the EU/IMF regime is their choice to make} and all about extending the life of the EU, and the further theft of Ukraine's wealth, in large part by the same oligarchs who already robbed hundreds of billions from Russia, Ukraine and increasingly, some of the central asian republics [Stanistan].
In all this bluster, the stupidity and costs of war are being wholly glossed over. The arrogance and expansionism and terror tactics of the US, Israel and NATO are common knowledge. Continuing down this path risks nuclear war for realsies.
And for all the talk of Putin and Crimea, consider that the narrative is meant to keep your eyes off of Kiev and western ukraine, which is sitting on a landmine.
You realize that you are implying the Ukrainians are too stupid to realize that they are getting screwed without even the benefit of a few crumbs being thrown their way...
Take you bullshit rhetoric and analysis somewhere else....
Better yet, move to Russia or China if you don't like the way things are in the West...
-------
Still no answer from you, JohnnyCockintheAss... How many died? Go ahead and tell us...
Shit Flak, people all over the world ARE too stupid to realize that they are getting screwed. All wars are bankster wars.
Mr ballsncock,
I'd refer you to any number of open-source defense industry journals or even the public library. Spend a few days in War College and at the US military academies where there are mountains of published articles that deal with these topics. It would be helpful if you knew any of the NATO military/civilian leadership or even had a clue about their doctrines. When you have accomplished that I'd suggest you spend some time in the Kremlin going over their history and what their experts say about their capabilities. All of this is open source and should take you about a year. Finally, you probably ought to read a few history books.
In any case. I am happy to disagree with you.
LOL.
I'm still very, very happy to disagree with you.
Nice rant though.
You might even fool some of these folks.
Care to guess who you wouldn't fool?
I wish I had confidence in the West's and East's leadershhip to work for peaceful solutions and avoid the whole WWIII thing altogether. The European / Russian track record over the last 500 years really sucks though.
If they decide to burn Europe to the ground again the US needs to stay out of it. We have tyrants of our own to deal with here.....
Well I agree with you here.
I think the story on western Ukraine is still being written. There's been some press about the rise of the far right in Europe, but the events in western Ukraine really mobilized and organized them. It has not been overstated.
And they are not likely to accept some minor, token representation in government and sit quietly while the EU/IMF and oligarchs flood Ukraine with immigrants and buy up Ukrainian land and other assets and resources on the cheap.
In one way of sort of... running a scenario they have CIA-SAD on the ground tasked with eliminating some leaders, maybe not, maybe that would work, maybe not, but I'm afraid they've unleashed forces here they may not be able to control.
And that isn't good for anybody.
Queue the armchair expert....
Heeeeeeeres, Johnny.....
Still waiting for that answer.. How many?
+1 for a change
"You don't know what you're talking about. In fact NATO couldn't get naval forces near Crimea without heavy losses, and your assessment of air superiority is absolutely backwards."
Russians can destroy all U.S. satellites in space, in seconds - at the touch of a button. After that, the entire U.S. Army will be only blind, deaf and dumb targets for a shooting practice.
Doesn't matter which way the order-of-battle analysis points...only one country is willing to go to the mat for this, and it isn't a member of NATO.
No "The Grand Chessboard" move for the key to Eurasia (Ukraine) is worth the cost to Western decision-makers, whether it is the low or high estimate. Russia will not in any form back down from their core interest of control of the Black Sea via Crimea. The only question remaining is if this ends in a peaceful partition, or a bloody civil war ending in the exact same partition line. No other possible option exists for the West.
"Russian tanks are no match for NATO tanks. Russian pilots and aircraft are no threat to NATO pilots and aircraft."
And Russian RPG also are no match for NATO tanks. blah-blah-blah... LOL
Oh lookie, another fucking expert crawls out of the woodwork....
You wrote-"Oh lookie, another fucking expert crawls out of the woodwork...."
I have to agree completely with you. There are a lot of armchair generals coming out of the woodwork, and Irene, armed with the pretense of knowledge, is the worst example.
Yet, you immediately turn around and say-
"It is nice to see a few people here can still think straight..."
Iren's references to the Army War College only make it worse; the implication is that he has attended one or more of the courses offered there. If these are the "ossifers" Leavenworth is churning out, we are fucked.
Let me give you a sobering example and a little more unsolicited "expertise". A hand-thrown, pre-Korean War RKG-3 can penetrate over 8 1/2 inches of armor. Americans have died in Iraq when these crude relics penetrated our vaunted and oh-so-modern up-armored vehicles.
We have fought for over a decade in Afghanistan against a force that has nothing beyond small arms and explosives. No artillery, no nukes, no armor, no navy, no chemical weapons, no air force, no army, no drones, no this, and no that....
We are enamored with our technology, and it is very easy to succumb to hubris and ignore the fundamentals of armed conflict. We have done so for decades.
Iren's chatter is for people who ejaculate having military fantasies and do not know any better. He talks about war like the imbecile commentators talk to the ignorant masses about the NFL.
His head is so far up his ass that he has to open his mouth to see where he is going...
Yeah, lots of bullshit flying around....
But you also agree that the stupidest thing Putin could do is roll the tanks in and try install a puppet, or barring that rig the elections in a baldface manner...
And at last count, the number of people understanding that here is very small... Likewise the issue of chemical weapons vis a vis Israel...
A well articulated different perspective is a good thing, especially given how the US/EU is slagged at every occasion...and with all things here, Cum grano salis...
The ball is clearly in Putin's court and I don't see many options for him in the short term except for diplomatic ones...
And sure as shit there will not be US troops on the ground in the Ukraine....
Thanx for the reply.
However, I do not think that "rolling tanks" might be the stupidest thing Putin can do. Russia simply cannot be shut out of the Black Sea port of Sevastopol.
From Russia's perspective, it could very well be worth rolling tanks to ensure this. The west's intrigues are pushing the bear into a corner, and that is a very bad and shortsighted thing.
Thowing a few pebbles into a swollen reservoir about to break the levees is hardly pushing Putin into a corner...
This is a problem of Putin's own creation...
The Bear has atomic claws...
NATO is doing no such thing...
In fact, if anything NATO would love to see Vlad steamroll into the Ukraine and set up another puppet state...
An intifada type uprising by the Ukraines would likely be the result...
Ask the Israalis how theirs is going and what a drain it is....
-----
BTW, there is more than enough surplus Russian equipment out there to supply the Ukrainians...
Has anyone here ever actually read Sun-Tzu???
Yes! This isn't a slam-dunk for Vlad the Putin. This is win-able for the Ukrainian people and the west.
It would require a thing called "leadership". Something we lack in the west.............
Quiet leadership....
Putin has a mess that could degenerate into a shitshow all by itself without any prompting from the US/NATO...
Agreed.
In fact one could argue would be in NATO's interest to goad Putin into doing something rash, a hasty show of force....
"I double dog dare you to stick your hand into this meat grinder".....
While I have your attention, how do you think Israel would respond to chemical munitions being lobbed in from Lebanon/Syria?
I am curious to hear your take....
"In fact one could argue would be in NATO's interest to goad Putin into doing something rash, a hasty show of force...."
You've never flown an intercept over the Sea of Japan with Nuke armed bombers flying towards your base have you.
We don't "goad" world leaders.
Fair enough.... Point made...
Israel:
This is an interesting place to think about Israel. Whom do you think is most likely to support Ukraine with money, intelligence, and even covert action? Israel is a country with interesting historical ties to eastern Europe.
I'm just saying, that "quiet leadership" does not have to come from Pennsylvania avenue.....
And the chemical weapons scenario?
Anybody crazy enough to send WMDs to Israel via Lebanon/Syria would have their head lopped off by any number of actors. Vlad thug Putin first among them.
Nobody wants to unholster that scenario.
Ok, I'll bite- How does Israel fit into all of this?
Thank you...
So here is the punch line...
It is therefore completely reasonable to conclude that the agreement between Putin and Obama regarding the Syrian chemical weapon stockpiles and their subsequent surrender to be disposed of was in no small part driven by the above considerations.
It must therefore follow that the Syrian adventure from last summer was a diplomatic success....
Edit: Junk away, hopefully those of you listening in got a lesson in reality from all this...
All I got was the horrible spectacle of you and Iren masturbating each other...
If you think that this is the only display of that, you ain't looking too closely...
The disjointed jump from Ukraine to Israel getting attacked with chemical weapons and speculation on the consequences for nations who smuggle them simply does not compute.
Unless there is some writing between the lines that I am too thick to divine...
Sorry that you missed it.
I was referring solely to the Syrian situation and Israel....
I have nothing to say about a connection between the Ukraine and Israel....
What's the size of Mars, Blue, shaped like a Bird and just passed by Jupiter and on course to intercept?
A big decision.
Is the stupidity of the US no longer able to be plotted on a scale of 1-10?
use log paper
The USD is "log paper", no?
We're overachievers. Our stupidity scale goes to 11.
pods
You meant LOO paper? lololo
The hypocrisy and stupidity are both off the charts.
But the putsch that NATO welcomed and the $5 billion that the US invested to foment it was just fine and dandy. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
Ukrainian Neo-Nazis Declare that Power Comes Out of the Barrels of their Guns
Paul Craig Roberts
Reality on the ground in Ukraine contradicts the incompetent and immoral Obama regime’s portrait of Ukrainian democracy on the march.
To the extent that government exists in post-coup Ukraine, it is laws dictated by gun and threat wielding thugs of the neo-Nazi, Russophobic, ultra-nationalist, right-wing parties. Watch the video of the armed thug, Aleksandr Muzychko, who boosts of killing Russian soldiers in Chechnya, dictating to the Rovno regional parliament a grant of apartments to families of protesters.http://rt.com/news/radical-opposition-intimidating-techniques-882/
Read about the neo-nazis intimidating the Central Election Commission in order to secure rule and personnel changes in order to favor the ultra-right in the forthcoming elections. Thug Aleksandr Shevchenko informed the CEC that armed activists will remain in CEC offices in order to make certain that the election is not rigged against the neo-nazis. What he means, of course, is the armed thugs will make sure the neo-nazis win. If the neo-nazis don’t win, the chances are high that they will take power regardless.
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/
Elections are a sham, everywhere. They are designed to make people docile. They have no other purpose. They are manipulated by sociopaths through rules and outright force in order to gain or keep power.
Elections are a sham, everywhere...
At first I thought you wrote "electrons" and I was going to agree with you. I then re-read it and realized you wrote "elections". I suppose I can still agree.
My personal take on this current conflict is there will be no painless solution for either side unless there is a unity to create a new entity separate and apart from either puppet master. It's evident to me this nation's people are being used as a tool by both sides in a "game" which should never be played. Their unity should come in the form of throwing both Soros' and Putin's puppets out.
(It wouldn't be a bad idea for the US either.)
jmo.
"Watch out for NATO!" , as in "Watch out for Keith":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LliGvt3SMsw
Feel sorry for Gorbachev, all that hardwork and leadership pissed away by one US administration after the other, welcome to Cold War 2
Well since Bin Ladin died(in 2001) the Zio's needed a new Boogeyman, now they found him.
Chess, chess.
Translation:
"Only the U.S has the monopoly on raising tensions"
Riiight, and I believe anything they say too!
the plan is to nuke the hell out of russia the moment russian soldiers step on ukrainian soil and Putin knows it.
the only problem - Nato miscalculates (as it did in Georgia conflict) russian mentality
Somehow I don't think the US is willing to sacrifice NY, LA and Washington to save a bunch of stooges in Kiev. Or anyone in the world for that matter.
Munich Conference of 1938 and the Russian fighting tenacity in Stalingrad are the polar opposite exemplars here. Most humans will fight like mad dogs to protect their own turf and family, but not give 2 sh!ts what happens in the next town.
Ultimately this has a positive and negative effect...a global NWO will never be able to survive, but a localized or national dictatorship is an ever-present threat.
The has to rank up there on the list of the stupidest things ever posted at ZH....
And that is quite a feat...
Well Flak, for once even I agree with you.
all sides are broke....more drama for the sheeple.
Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev and George Bush the first had an agreement that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe. This proved to be something that the West resist because of the vast amounts of money they made converting the military to NATO standards. The quick money made is now being paid for in blood. Bush and others pushed against a Russian fear of invasion something historically accurate, however greed being the manifest destiny of the NWO faces it current tempest. We face Republicans building a bridge and Democrats providing the destination a Bridge to Nowhere.
You couldn't script this any better, except for one thing, Russia's not the bad guy anymore. No one with a modicum of sense believes anything the U.S. or U.N. says anymore.
Its different this time, because of people like Assange and Snowden and Manning, the curtain has been drawn back and the manipulators have been exposed.
Sorry Barry, we can't unsee what we saw.
If you think Putin is a good guy, you are either a fool or being paid to write it...
Once upon a time there were good guys and bad guys.... Not any more, now is it bad and slightly less bad...
It is truly a real time Game of Thrones....
BTW, just be fucking glad that Dick Cheney did not become the Russian President...
Of course he's a good guy. Haven't you looked into his eyes and seen his soul? He wears his grandmother's crucifix too.
It's been that way for a long time. What has changed is that the US is the bad guy and Russia is the slightly less bad guy. It's a known fact that the US fomented a coup in Ukraine. It was a stupid thing to do, and now we all have to deal with the fallout. At the very least, Russia will regain Crimea, and probably get at least full pupped control over eastern Ukraine. I don't know if that's good or bad in the long run, but the US/NATO are gonna come out of this looking even more diminshed without even firing a shot.
BTW, WTF does Cheney have to do with this?
I suggest you follows the exchange above where the adults are having a discussion....
But first, screw your fucking head on straight if you really think Russia is the less bad guy...
Tell me how the United Orwellian States of America is the good guy. The US State Dept. is on fucking tape admitting their role in toppling Ukraine's (nominally pro-Russian) government in order to install a Western puppet. Didn't turn out the whay they planned at all, just like everywhere else in the world that they've tried that shit. I was starting to think that you were a normal guy wish some differing opinions, but now I'm convinced that you're an unholy combination of Progressive Liberal and full-tilt State and Jackboot loving neocon. But that's redundant as both liberals and conservatives love to worship at the altar of the State and Jackboot and pray to see it grow.
A Timeline of CIA Atrocities
By Steve Kangas
The following timeline describes just a few of the hundreds of atrocities and crimes committed by the CIA.
CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition. First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: "We'll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us." The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be "communists," but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow.
This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious "School of the Americas." (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the "School of the Dictators" and "School of the Assassins." Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.
It's worth of one's reading!
Read the rest here.
There was quite a bit of truth in Kangas' writings, but, at the end of the day he was just another statist. He just wanted a different form of statism than what we have been getting since the end of WWII.
If I root around I can probably get a list of KGB or NKVD or MOSSAD or SAVAK atrocities as well...
But why stop there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_secret_police_organizations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_secret_police_organizations
Is this some kind of revelation?
"If you think Putin is a good guy, you are either a fool or being paid to write it..."
If you think Obama is a good guy, you are either a fool or being paid to write it... LOL
Yes, Putin is very nasty dude. Because he does not allow U.S. robs Russia and refuses to be lackey for Washington's, as it do many European leaders.
someone is gonna get droned. either by horse face talking them to death or owebomba hellfiring some weddings.
Yeah, if the junta has to back down from this some third worlders are going to get a serious kicking to soothe the imperial ego.
The problem is not Putin in the Kremlin the problem is a fukctard moron in the White(Out) House.
This is Cuban Crisis 2.0 but there is no JFK to make a deal, I envy anybody living near a Fallout shelter or way out in the countryside.
Well....those missles in turkie was a bad idea too...
You are giving Barry too much credit. He is just a puppet. A fucktard still has some independence.
"NATO CHIEF SAYS ACTIONS BY ARMED GROUP IN CRIMEA "DANGEROUS AND IRRESPONSIBLE"
He might as well say 'this is really icky', Putin knows he is dealing with a paper tiger when it comes to BHO
Crips or Bloods...
Who gets the hood?
Either way, the hood will pay.
Sold tomorrow for today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_rYvK6H99Y
Clip from Russian movie BRAT 2
Eh, Putin is playing this whole situation wonderfully as far as I can see. A separated Ukraine results in a pathetic failed state which Russia would probably not care about losing. The East however, would greatly benefit from it and Russia would continue to play the gas game. Do you honestly believe that the US has the stones to attack Russia? Never gonna happen, cus Russia can simply sign a deal with China (who would build those new pipes in record time) and blow the EU lifeline to not freezing to death in the winter. Yes, let's attack Russia, who would absolutely love an excuse to kick it into high gear and supply all the US enemies around the world with real weapons. It's not like it would be anything special or crazy, the US does it already to fuck with Russia.
Based on what you wrote, you have to be Poe'ing us...
Are you the new MDB with a PROC twist?