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Mt Gox Files For Bankruptcy After $473 Million In Bitcoins "Disappeared"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

For a case study of a blistering rise and an absolutely epic fall of an exchange that i) was named after Magic: the Gathering and ii) transacted in a digital currency which many have speculated was conceived by the NSA nearly two decades ago and was used as a honeypot to trap the gullible, look no further than Mt.Gox which after halting withdrawals for the second (and final time) has finally done the honorable thing, and filed for bankruptcy. As the WSJ reports, "Bitcoin exchange Mt. Gox said Friday it was filing for bankruptcy protection after losing almost 750,000 of its customers' bitcoins, marking the collapse of a marketplace that once dominated trading in the virtual currency. The company said it also lost around 100,000 of its own bitcoins. Together, the lost bitcoins would be worth approximately $473 million at market prices charted by the CoinDesk bitcoin index, although the price of Mt. Gox bitcoin had fallen well below that index after it stopped bitcoin withdrawals in early February."

The punchline: speaking to reporters at Tokyo District Court Friday after the bankruptcy filing, Mt. Gox owner Mark Karpelès said technical issues had opened the way for fraudulent withdrawals, and he apologized to customers.  

"There was some weakness in the system, and the bitcoins have disappeared. I apologize for causing trouble"

So $473 million Bitcoins disappear just like that? But you heard the man - he is sorry. So all is well - and why not: it works for the TBTF banks every day.

What is amazing is that at the time of filing Mt. Gox had outstanding debt of about ¥6.5 billion ($63.6 million), and just as amazing is that it actually had assets worth ¥3.84 billion.

Elsewhere, prices on the CoinDesk index, which tracks the Bitstamp and BTC-e bitcoin exchanges, fell slightly after the announcement but appeared to stave off a larger drop.

Mr. Karpelès, wearing a gray suit and a blue tie, appeared calm while his lawyer did most of the talking, but he appeared to have difficulty finding words when reporters asked him to send a message to his investors, just repeating his apology.

Computer geeks who were hoping to ride the momentum train to riches, and apparently had never heard of gold, were unhappy:

"It is disappointing they hid so much for so long," said Jonathan Waller, a 30-year-old game developer who said he had had 211 bitcoin in Mt. Gox. "I hope they manage to become a fully-functioning exchange again, but their reputation is so damaged it may not be possible," he said.

 

Over the past month, customers from as far away as the U.K. and Australia had come to air their complaints outside the company's Tokyo offices. One of them, Londoner Kolin Burges, figured in news photos around the world holding a sign saying, "MT GOX—WHERE IS OUR MONEY."

 

William Banks, a website developer in Australia, said he lost about 100 bitcoins in Mt. Gox. He had been using the platform since the end of 2012, when he bought some bitcoins at $40 each. Recently, he bought more at about $800 a pop as he became more confident in the virtual currency. He said he has contacted a Japan-based lawyer to look into legal action.

 

About Mt. Gox's loss of bitcoins, he said, "That seems impossible to me. It's just such an astronomical amount of coins to lose."

Only when redenominated in USD. Remember: BTC is its own currency so why fret? As for the collapse of this latest Ponzi scheme: if things appear too good to be true (wink wink S&P 500), they usually are.

 

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Fri, 02/28/2014 - 08:58 | 4488188 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Well, thank goodness for my failsafe paper wallet...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:00 | 4488194 FinalCollapse
FinalCollapse's picture

and it's gone....poof.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:00 | 4488200 Zero_Sum
Zero_Sum's picture

BitCorzine'd, so to speak.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:04 | 4488210 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Can you say mobile phone and bank account?? Link, money, gone, can you really?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:06 | 4488221 duo
duo's picture

Bitcoin, 2014's version of the gold miner stocks.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:09 | 4488227 wallstreetapost...
wallstreetaposteriori's picture

I guess this should be bullish for shitcoins....right foneystar.  

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:10 | 4488236 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

That 50 dollar he had invested my be gone right now...

well... that will be 4 more blowjobs he'll have to perform at that reststop I guess to get it back...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:11 | 4488241 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

I tried to warn bitcoinbugz that this eccentric experiment in decentralized currency would end badly, but of course libertarians and power-hungry hackers always think they know better than everyone else. This bankruptcy is proof that bitcoin will never be a legitimate currency and simply cannot stand up to the tangible, centralized alternatives. Currency needs to be backed by a strong authority or it simply cannot function. Economists have proved this over and over again and yet somehow libertarians still don't get it.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:19 | 4488253 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

"William Banks, a website developer in Australia, said he lost about 100 bitcoins in Mt. Gox. He had been using the platform since the end of 2012, when he bought some bitcoins at $40 each. Recently, he bought more at about $800 a pop as he became more confident in the virtual currency. He said he has contacted a Japan-based lawyer to look into legal action."

Better call Japan's version of Saul Goodman-san!
 
"About Mt. Gox's loss of bitcoins, he said, "That seems impossible to me. It's just such an astronomical amount of coins to lose." "

It's just a 400 million USD heist. Mr. Karpeles did say that he "is sorry for causing trouble."

What more do you want, whiner?

Oh well, AT LEAST THE OTHER "BITCOIN" EXCHANGES ARE TAMPER PROOF WITH UNBREAKABLE HASHTAG CODES /s

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:19 | 4488263 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Paging Fonestar... Fonestar, please pick up one of the white courtesy telephones for an informational message... Something about where all your bitcoins went and what currency was used to cash them out... 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:32 | 4488304 Gief Gold Plox
Gief Gold Plox's picture

I'm honestly amazed he hasn't shown up yet... talking about how noone cares about Mt. Gox.

More and more I'm starting to think that he's been planted here by some fed agency as to deter people from getting into bitcoin.

I know I feel ashamed in admitting I own some of the same currency as that idiot does.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:33 | 4488306 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Bitcoin is so 2013.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:35 | 4488319 CH1
CH1's picture

And the Haters have their day.

They seem to think that Bitcoin itself is dead, and not just one exchange... probably just a function of their malicious joy.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:37 | 4488325 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

It's only $473 Million....I'm sure it will turn up somewhere.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:42 | 4488350 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

And in other news today, the NSA's 2014 operating budget was just increased by $473,000,000. A spox for the NSA stated, "We are pleased that the administration has shown confidence in our ability to fight terrorism and defend freedom, which justifies this increase in our funding."

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:55 | 4488424 Skin666
Skin666's picture

Yes they really did outdo themselves with the Boston Bombing

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:58 | 4488447 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

p.s. - How does Bitcoin Bankruptcy Court work? (since Magic, the gathering was part of the bitcoin currency exchange)

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:22 | 4488603 TerminalDebt
TerminalDebt's picture

It's only half a billion fiat currency, that's nothing. Not like fiat currency is worth anything anyway.

 

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:42 | 4488748 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Nothing like a little counter-party risk to negate the value of the blockchain.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:41 | 4489099 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Maybe FukashimaCoin's Are A Better Bet For The Suckers That Are Still Into This Crap...???...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:49 | 4489144 fuu
Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:17 | 4489304 ultraticum
ultraticum's picture

Why is it that everybody talks about the exchanges synonymously with Bitcoin, and not on the protocol/currency itself?  Is it because this is a financial site, and we're all used to turning over digital $US or EURO or YEN fiat to the bankster?  We can't imagine a currency without the bankster?  One of Bitcoin's attributes is that it can OBVIATE the exchanges and middle-men money jobbers.

The people who kept their money with an exchange (either for day trading or whatever) deserve to lose it of the exchange goes belly up. That is a simple free market concept we, as FDIC-insured thoroughly indoctrinated statist muppets, have totally lost along the way. 

If only the TBTF fiat currency exchanges (i.e. banks) had been allowed to fail as spectacularly in 2008 as Mt. Gox . . .

Cue the universal cry for "government regulation" of Bitcoin, due to acts perpetuated outside the protocol by banksters, in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:46 | 4489511 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/e85-mtgox-and-malleability/

An excellent explanation of transaction malleability and how mt.gox operated.

 

The interviewee gives an excellent analogy to explain where mt gox went wrong, how it ended up operating in a fractional reserve manner, eventually led to a run, and finally collapsed.

Because bitcoin is in the wild we see beautiful free market solutions popping up such as the one at bitcoinbuilder.com.

 

Weak hands to strong hands.

honey badger dont give a fuck.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 13:04 | 4489618 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

How many other MORONS, in typical American fashion, incapable of admitting a mistake, will leave their $$$ in other exchanges, thinking it is just a "MtGox" problem ???

"Hey, would you sell JPM because WFC has a problem?"

Mark Twain nailed it:

Man is the only animal that can be skinned more than once.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:51 | 4489536 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=22929.msg5286474#msg5286474

 

The blockchain isn't negated. Exchanges (they;re kinda new and all) haven't implemented this type of self reporting yet.

The system is designed to be trustless. It is. We just need to continue implementing it correctly, not half assed like gox did.

 

The tools exist to allow bitcoin to inherently prevent wildcat banks from existing. The exchanges just choose not to implement this yet. To the customers loss.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 13:06 | 4489632 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:58 | 4488870 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Alas poor Fonestar....

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:59 | 4488881 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Why?  What happened to fonestar?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:16 | 4488944 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

Welcome back fonestarnac the magnificent. Heaven has no brighter star than our omniscient stellar guest, that omnipotent master of the east and former manicurist to Satochi Nakamoto.

I hold in my hand these envelopes. As a child of four can plainly see, these envelopes have been hermetically sealed. They've been kept in a #2 mayonnaise jar since noon today on Funk and Wagnell's porch. No one knows the contents of these envelopes, but you, in your divine and mystical way, will ascertain the answers to these questions having never seen them before.

Here are the questions: Bitcoin, Mt Gox and hacked hash.

We await in silence your wise response...

 

:-)

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:41 | 4489103 Mad Mohel
Mad Mohel's picture

Don't humor the pumping cunt.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:09 | 4489243 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar doesn't need to pump dipshit.  Bitcoins are so far advanced of your "dollars" they overpower them easily.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 14:26 | 4490037 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

WRONG ANSWER! 

The correct answer was, "I'm am going to have to sell of all my magic the gathering and pokemon card collections on ebay now to pay mom for next months rent."

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:33 | 4489050 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Poor Fonestar bought BTC at $10 and can still sell them for $500+

 

Idiots that keep BTC or fiat in exchange accounts for more than 72 hours get what they deserve. Greed killed the people using MtGox. One look at MtGox's wire out transfer policy would have seen they were insolvent. Only insolvent fractionally backed companies take 1-2 months to process a wire transfer request as a stated terms of service

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:33 | 4489069 pods
pods's picture

Search the archives, "fonestar" got out at $780 IIRC. 

Fonestar is just one of us (read some non BTC stuff he posts)  who bought a magic mirror and cannot look away from all the awesome it shows him.

It is an act.

pods

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:10 | 4489249 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Yes, fonestar is not very poor.  Thanks in large part to Satoshi Nakamoto and the socratic method.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 13:05 | 4489630 walküre
walküre's picture

You also got your family involved to buy at the top. Not sure if should loathe you or contact you for a bridge I'd like to sell. Sure you can pull it of!

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 14:31 | 4490067 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

Yeah I bet you got heavily involved in Statoshi's scroatic method. Teabag on the forehead lessons were exhausting i'm sure. 

 

But I'm sure they were worth it, just look where you are today! 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:51 | 4488815 ebworthen
Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:35 | 4489077 pods
pods's picture

I would trade my skittle shitting unicorm Beanie Baby for that card!

pods

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 13:25 | 4489745 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

Another thought.

Does he file "imaginary" bankrupcy, for losing this "imaginary" money?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:17 | 4488976 Johnny Cocknballs
Johnny Cocknballs's picture

You go before a Dungeon Master, who asks you riddles three...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:58 | 4488445 Patriot Eke
Patriot Eke's picture

In other words, it's just another tax.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:42 | 4488353 gold-is-not-dead
gold-is-not-dead's picture

it went to china, two days ago...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:59 | 4488460 Patriot Eke
Patriot Eke's picture

That's another possibility.  The US Dollar is going to zero, and our creditors are pissed.  How do you repay them?  Hey, let's create this digital currency thing, and then we'll let our creditors cash in.  It sure is a lot less hassle than invading nations or moving gold bars.  har har

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 13:10 | 4489656 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

Or raising taxes.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:52 | 4488412 giggler321
giggler321's picture

The best way to rob a bank is own a bank, poor Gox.  There is more to this than one first thinks.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:27 | 4488477 Bindar Dundat
Bindar Dundat's picture

Right on giggler and there is more bad history  (can we say crooked?)  than meets the eye. It will/should come out by Monday and it will not be pretty.

To those that think this is about bitcoin, not a bad actor, please enjoy your moment of gloating because reality has a way of catching up with people who gloat to soon.  Bitcoin (the network and the invention) is not going away because there are five billion people in the world who need low cost banking services and could care less about the U.S. reserve status.  Bankers in your system would think this crook is a light weight if he only managed to steal $470M.  

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:57 | 4488866 fonestar
fonestar's picture

OMG!!

Another Bitcoin thread?  Sometimes fonestar wishes he was not on Pacific Time!

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:59 | 4488456 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

It's not that it is just $470 million. Isn't that like 10% of the total value of all these virtual collectibles? A similar heist in the dollar would be trillions. Oh well, more suckers will line up for the next get rich without working for the money scheme.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:24 | 4488560 Bindar Dundat
Bindar Dundat's picture

The people who diss BTC are usually the ones who can borrow money and have access to traditional banking services.  Most of the naysayers are in America or Europe because the system has treated them better than the other five billion people in the world.  Listen up you greedy punks : Digital stateless currency is here to stay and the central bankers and their trolls can stick it up their  lazy inovation-free buts.  The invention of the blockchain is not going away and a central bank can be replaced with a few hundred lines of code.  The ability to send micro payments  and larger payements for virtually nothing will upset the banking applecart and that is fine with a lot of us who are tired of currency manipulation.  Zero hedgers complain bitch and whine about the central banks but none of you have the brains or the balls to actually spend time learning about digital currency.  Go ahead - down arrow me -- make my day you crudites.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:32 | 4488668 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

Why don't you tell us why you come to this site?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:13 | 4489283 fonestar
fonestar's picture

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED TO BITCOIN??

DID SOMETHING BAD HAPPEN?  RETARDS!!!

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:46 | 4488770 Grosvenor Pkwy
Grosvenor Pkwy's picture

"Go ahead - down arrow me -- make my day you crudites."

Your wish is my command, Sire Bindat. I worked hard to learn about "digital currency" including reading papers, downloading software, setting up several different types of wallets, downloading blockchains, and doing small test transactions. I found the system to be opaque, unreliable, and cumbersome. I watched transactions get lost or never completed when the blockchain forked due to incompatible software versions: if I had being using a significant amount of money I would have been very concerned, but since it only involved less than a dollar I took it as a lesson on what might happen in a major software failure.

(BTW, what is a crudite? I thought that was those raw carrots and broccolis with cheese dip.)

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:12 | 4489268 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I think he meant "Luddite", but oh well.....

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 14:06 | 4489944 EtTuEtTu
EtTuEtTu's picture

Maybe he actually meant crudite and he views all dissenters as big raw carrots ready to be plunged and covered with some sort of white dip.

(its enough to even make Freud blush) 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:26 | 4489024 InflammatoryResponse
InflammatoryResponse's picture

and pray tell how your electronic micro imaginary payments are going to work post EMP strike?

 

or a super duper solar flare or anything else the scorches our electric planet?

 

 

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:38 | 4489086 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

LOL I do love the OMG EMP response.

Oh yeah, given a once-in-500-years average frequency event, and assuming that everything else you take for granted would work in your post-apocalyptic world BITCOIN WOULD NOT WORK!

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:41 | 4489097 pods
pods's picture

You don't even need to go that far.  Think 3rd world electic grid.  Ain't gonna be no farmer in Ecuador selling his Acai berries for 0.0000001 BTC per pound.

Most of the third world enjoys shoes and full bellies as a luxury.  Somehow those people are going to be convinced that using BTC is going to work? 

Pull the other one.

pods

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:59 | 4489197 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

Actually, you're pretty far off on this one.  The electric grid is terrible, but mobile phone usage and mobile payment systems are exploding there.  A cheap micropayment system that can transact over mobile phone or SMS will be huge for them until they step into the 20th century (yes, that was intentional). 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:59 | 4489198 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

Actually, you're pretty far off on this one.  The electric grid is terrible, but mobile phone usage and mobile payment systems are exploding there.  A cheap micropayment system that can transact over mobile phone or SMS will be huge for them until they step into the 20th century (yes, that was intentional). 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:31 | 4489049 Balanced Integer
Balanced Integer's picture

I always give up-arrows to posts with genuinely righteous anger in them. So have one.

I am personally intruiged by cryptocurrencies, and would like to see one that is backed by something tangible...like precious metals or energy (X amount of joules/unit). Actually, I should look into the possibility of designing such a currency myself, with a group of like-minded programmers.

[Edit: I'm kicking around the idea also of accepting BTC and maybe LTC for services from my IT company.]

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:01 | 4489205 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

Bitcoin is backed by energy in some sense.  The energy costs required to produce it are the absolute floor for the price, at least if it stays in use.  Much like gold, nobody is going to mine it if the value drops below the acquisition costs.  

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:15 | 4489294 Balanced Integer
Balanced Integer's picture

"Bitcoin is backed by energy in some sense."

Which is fine for someone who is interested in investing in BTC, or mining them (same thing really).

What I'd like to be able to do is transfer a BTC to the electric company and know that I can get X amount of juice this month, regardless of how much fiat that BTC is trading at. Hell, I'd like to be able to take a dollar to the power comapny and do the same thing.

Instead of stamping a a BTC with, say, a $500 value (much like American Gold Eagles are stamped $50), I'd like to see it stamped with a number of joules, or grams/ounces of precious metal, or X pounds of flour. Actually, a virtual currency should be easy to back by a whole basket of commodities to ensure its value.

Just brainstorming.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:01 | 4489206 ILoveDebt
ILoveDebt's picture

Bitcoin is backed by energy in some sense.  The energy costs required to produce it are the absolute floor for the price, at least if it stays in use.  Much like gold, nobody is going to mine it if the value drops below the acquisition costs.  

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:53 | 4489544 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

I'm sure glad I got rid of those "barbaric relic" gold coins and now have stacks of bitcoins in my safe instead... oh wait...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:43 | 4488352 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Because for something that derives its value entirely from subjective intangible properties, being associated with a $500m bankruptcy is not at all damaging?

 

Most of the people in the world will read this story as "Bitcoin is bankrupt".

 

So yes, it's basically a death knell.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:02 | 4488895 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin is going nowhere moron.  Except the moon.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:05 | 4488911 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

bitcoin stepped out for some fresh air up there on the moon, didn't work out too well ...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:08 | 4488927 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Go read fonestar's posts.  He said months ago Gox was finished and Bitcoin could roll back into the $500s before the next big rally.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:08 | 4489237 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

I'm past caring now.

 

It's waning.

 

Not long before we start seeing "remember Bitcoin?" nostalgia.

 

When a huge percentage of early adopters get wiped out by an investment it's generally not good for the longevity of the venture.

 

Bitcoin is a 2013 story. 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:16 | 4489298 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin continues to be adopted all around the world.  2014 will continue to be another great year for Bitcoin.  It will be nice once we get to the point where we ram this currency down your fucking throats like it or not.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 14:22 | 4490017 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

How exactly would you "ram it down our fucking throats"? If you were Saudi Arabia and insisted on trading bitcoin for oil, you could do that. But you're some mid-level programmer geek with modest financial assets. I'm afraid you don't have that kind of clout.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 15:57 | 4490489 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Don't feed the troll.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 22:44 | 4492451 thegreatplains
thegreatplains's picture

No no no. What is being said is this whole thing is flawed. First you BTC lovers cry we're smarter than all you knuckle dragging barbaric relic loving goons. This is the new way, no banks peer to peer. Well riddle me this. You deposit something of value with an institution, with the expectation of withdrawing it someday. What is this institution called. A BANK of course. So your little exchange is a bank. Next you say its code cant be hacked. Well guess what. And how many times has it happened. Then its completely anonymous. What about all that code that fallows each coin telling were when and to whom it went. Well that must just be crap or all the 750,000 Mt "lost" should be able to be found. When and id they are ever transferred in the future. Then your war cry turns to no govt. interference or control. Well how many govt have in the last year said nope not here. Or nope not with our currency. Cant be manipulated. Well many are treating it as a commodity. Which really explains BTC's rise in price. Not a great surge in acceptance. Now lets get to value. Its being priced in fiat currency now isn't it.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:45 | 4488366 tmosley
tmosley's picture

He advised anyone with BTC in Mt. Gox to get it out, and has done so for as long as I have noticed him talking about bitcoin.  Every time he mentioned Mt. Gox, he said it was insolvent.

But everyone associates him with being pro-bitcoin, and they associate Mt. Gox with bitcoin, therefore he must be pro-Mt. Gox.  What he actually said doesn't matter.

I invite everyone who internalizes that type of "logic" to drink the bleach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ6Ex8E1q50

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:51 | 4488406 Saro
Saro's picture

At this point, I think the usual crowd is too busy lashing out to contemplate the logic of what they're claiming.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:05 | 4489222 A is A
A is A's picture

You know for all the libertarian types on here the bashing and hating of what is going on is rediculous. The shit was stolen and last time I checked libertarians are firm believers in property rights. Instead of asking "why is the government not doing the one fucking thing it is supposed to do, defend property rights", everyone is just bashes Bitcoin. Don't you understand what kind of precident this sets for property rights with regard to cyrptocurrencies if we let the government turn a blind eye to these currencies? Whether you think bitcoin is stupid or not it is beside the point. Let the market decide but don't let it be some sort or second class property exempt from basic property rights! If everybody knew that one store on the corner was exempt from property rights how many thugs and parasites do you think are going steal from that place on a daily basis???

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:56 | 4488418 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

@tmosely - I think you've been out of the loop.

Fonestar has been claiming that he's been pumping bitcoin (even to his own family members) while putting his own assets (whatever those may be) into litecoin & 2girls&aCupCoin, for quite some time now.

In other words, to the extent that Fonestar could ever be taken seriously or at the face value of his own claims (he can't and couldn't, but I let's run the theoretical exercise anyway), he pumped & dumped many, including his own family, and is now working on a P&D of litecoin.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:59 | 4488455 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Does anyone actually take that seriously, though?

I mean c'mon - you have to be a particular kind of retard to take investment advice off a stranger on a website forum. And if you want to speak of pump&dump - I saw shitloads of people hyping Gold at the top back in 2011; now, I own gold myself, but mainly as a systemic risk hedge - but if I were to continue along this path, then surely I could accuse those who pumped gold at its recent peak to be P&D'ers as well.

Yet, somehow that is completely glossed over on ZH.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:06 | 4488501 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

So why is tmosely (at least) purporting to defend him/his past comments?

It's a legitimate question given tmosely's comment above.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:17 | 4488564 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

Well, personally I don't have any understanding of tmosley wanting to defend fonestar, as it seems like an incomprehensible waste of time to even attempt to do so, regardless of whether he's right or not.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:08 | 4488929 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I don't defend fonestar.  I defend the TRUTH.

Fonestar is a jackass.  But he said what he said, and people who lie about what he said (or anything else) are going to get thumped by me.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:05 | 4488495 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Am I evil for pushing gold, but owning silver?

It's the same sector.  Those other cryptos rise and fall with BTC, for the most part, but are more thinly traded and thus more volatile.  Just because he is a trader doesn't mean that his fundamental thesis of continued increase in bitcoin acceptance is false.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:50 | 4489143 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Fonestar most certainly is a shill to delegitimize bitcoin by agitating potential adopters here with his messianich talking about Satoshi and then himself in a third party nonsense. It is purposeful bad coloring of bitcoin to impressionable minds to keep them from wanting to look any deeper when they get turned off by his act.

If he really was pro-bitcoin he'd stfu. At a mimimum he is private troll and maximum a professional shill.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:02 | 4488475 Gief Gold Plox
Gief Gold Plox's picture

Well said. Is it any wonder people associate BitCoin with Mt. Gox? Media (ZH included I might add) is much to blame for this. That said, what does such an event do for BTC reputation as an emerging currency? Some association is inevitable and I'd argue necessary. Especially for people looking into getting into BTC.

As for taking fonestar seriously, I don't think I'm capable of such a feat any more. His posturing and extremely poor tone of delivery are beyond my tolerance limits.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:18 | 4489312 fonestar
fonestar's picture

fonestar is a brilliant investor and philosophator.  He has been recommending BTC since $50 based on its fundamental superiority to "dollars" and continues to do so.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:14 | 4488542 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture

The BitCoin believers want to focus on the fact that this incident is simply one insolvent exchange. What they refuse to address is the simple fact that a currency that evaporates into nothing and that can't be traced is inherently vulnerable to this type of theft, manipulation and insolvency - and that  there is no re4course in such an event.

The Mt Gox episode exposes for everyone to see what the fundamental problems are with an electricity based currency.

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:22 | 4488605 Saro
Saro's picture

1. Bitcoin does not "evaporate into nothing".  Mt Gox was scammed out of their coins because they had crappy software (i.e. someone stole them).
2. If someone steals your gold/silver/cash, good luck "tracing" those.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:38 | 4488719 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture

"Bitcoin does not "evaporate into nothing"".

 

Oh really? What happens to them when the electricity goes out?

If someone steals my gold coins - those gold coins are recoverable. 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:41 | 4488741 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

for bitcoin owners, on line poker is legit as bitcoin, bank on it.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:15 | 4488962 tmosley
tmosley's picture

What happens to any electronic ledger when the lights go out?

It sits there on countless hard drives around the world until the lights come back on.  Unlike bank deposits, there is no chance of your bitcoins being confiscated while the system is down.

>those gold coins are recoverable

This is what idiots actually believe.  Fungible goods can't be recovered unless you catch them before they sell it AND they have some sort of identifying mark on them.

Your gold is no more recoverable than bitcoin and I think you know it.  That is not a weakness of either gold or bitcoin (not that you will understand that--arguments are soldiers, and your little brain wants you to take a side, and you fell for that fallacy hook line, sinker, pole, body, and boat.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:41 | 4489098 InflammatoryResponse
InflammatoryResponse's picture

you need to understand gold a little more.

 

gold exists physically it is recoverable as it will NOT cease to exist.  tracking down YOUR gold can be challenging to be sure.  but it will still EXIST physically some place and wherever that is, it will STILL exist.  kinda redundant I know :)

 

 

you prattle on about how your bitcoins will be secure on the hard drives until the lights come back on.  you're assuming that the hard drives will be functional at some point.  they might not be.  therefore your bitcoins will evaporate.

 

 

However, gold will still be gold.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:55 | 4489563 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You have to assume some sort of apocalypse of a magnitude that would wipe out all of humanity for your bitcoin to "vanish".  What good is gold if humanity is extinct?

And no, stolen bitcoin does not disappear.  It's stolen.  That WOULD be the dumbest thing I have ever heard except for all the other bullshit you people make up to attack bitcoin for no reason.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 13:04 | 4489613 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture

The point is - you may neer be able to access the hard drives that store your "money".

Do you really think that  you will always be allowed free and unfettered access to the internet? Seriously?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 02:54 | 4515669 Shumbies
Shumbies's picture

...don't forget the copy of "Angler's Annual".

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:06 | 4488915 fonestar
fonestar's picture

tmosley.... again it's funny that this is not really news in any Bitcoin forums.  So why is it being presented as if it were a big deal on Zerohedge?  Why are the moon howlers so concerned about something they said they would never invest in?  Which appears to be doing just fine BTW....

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:45 | 4488336 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I like how Tyler doesn't know the difference between e-cash and bitcoin.

Here's a hint: electronic dollar transactions are encrypted too!  That doesn't make the dollar a cryptocurrency.  The system described in your little NSA paper doesn't even mention how their money is created, IE it defaults to being sourced from a central issuer.  THAT is what makes cryptocurrencies unique and powerful.  Sad that despite posting all these trollbait articles you STILL don't understand that.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:28 | 4488646 mumbo_jumbo
mumbo_jumbo's picture

LOL,.....i was wondering how long this post was going to take!!

LOL

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:58 | 4488875 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Again, fonestar never used MtGox.  Never traded there.  Never has fonestar had a single satoshi stolen from him.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:23 | 4488272 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Ponzi indeed.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:37 | 4488710 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

There is a real lack of information about Gox.  When did it go Ponzi?  So many theories about the coins: Were they stolen? When? How?  Are they destroyed because Gox lost the keys?  When? How?  Another interesting theory is the coins were seized by the U.S. gov't some time ago in relation to the Silk Road bust and that Gox is/has been under 10 layers of gag orders.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:59 | 4488861 Grosvenor Pkwy
Grosvenor Pkwy's picture

"Another interesting theory"

It's true there are many theories, none yet proven to be true of false. All we have is press releases from Mt.Gox, and a huge number of theories from people with very little real info.

But you have to give Mt.Gox credit for being represented by a real person who gives his real name and photo, and appears in person to answer questions. Most of "crypto currency" developers and supporters are anonymous internet handles such as "buttface," "ziggy," and "SxC" who appear with great fanfare to pump their schemes, but can disappear forever at the first sign of trouble.

Are we really expected to invest significant amounts of money in what behaves like a company with unknown management, no physical location, no prospectus, no financial statements, and no history?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:24 | 4488276 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

You do realize that those hashing algorithms are the same ones the regular banking system relies on as well, right?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:30 | 4488298 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

And, we all know how trustworthy the banking system is, don't we?

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:36 | 4488321 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

While that may or may not be the case, there have been no recorded instances of bank heists the direct result of current hashing algorithm weaknesses. If that were the case, you'd see a continuous outflow from JPM, etc, and probably complete trade logs of their commodities division public on the interweb.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:43 | 4488356 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

Forget heists, how many bank failures have there been?

And there is no FDIC or NCUA for Bitcoin... 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:47 | 4488383 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

The specific quote I commented on was this:

Oh well, AT LEAST THE OTHER "BITCOIN" EXCHANGES ARE TAMPER PROOF WITH UNBREAKABLE HASHTAG CODES /s

So what does your argument have to do with hashing algorithms again?

Banks can collapse, go bankrupt, be thoroughly corrupt, engage in insider trading, etc... - but none of that has one iota to do with the underlying technology.

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:07 | 4488505 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

Simple: you drew an analogy between Bitcoin and the "regular" banking system.

I pointed out that even in the "regular" banking system, fraud is rampant. But at least depositors have some protections via FDIC and NCUA.

Bitcoin? Not so much...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:14 | 4488546 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

No, I did not. I stated that the technology used was equivalent, with the express purpose of pointing out that if it's safe in regards to its use by classic banking institutions, it does not suddenly become less so when used by disruptives, which was essentially what TIS hinted at.

You, however, seem to have taken the approach that if banking is corrupt, and banking uses SHA-2, then SHA-2 must be corrupt, which is an inherently false statement.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:48 | 4488386 tmosley
tmosley's picture

You do realize you are advocating abandoning market discipline in favor of ever increasing systemic risk moderated by the federal government, don't you?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:12 | 4488528 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

No.

I have no faith in the "regular banking system."

I am a strong believer in caveat emptor. FDIC & NCUA contribute to the moral hazard problems which are rampant in our current system.

I was simply pointing out that advocates of Bitcoin tend to be blind to its faults; and there are many. 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:57 | 4489576 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Then why are you bitching about bitcoin not being government insured and regulated?

That is doublethink.  You need to think CONSISTANTLY.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:19 | 4488530 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

accidental double post

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:23 | 4488609 EscapeKey
EscapeKey's picture

I don't understand this argument - so now we're not libertarians again?

BTC has never even attempted to sell itself as a fully regulated, insured industry. Not even once. And what happened in regards to MtGox was tragic for many, but ultimately not BTC's fault itself. Sure, you can assume that because a major exchange goes down, it will have repercussions in regards to BTC itself, and who knows, time will tell. But then, that's exactly the argument which went down when Silk Road was busted.

But I don't see the solution being somehow working on fiat-currency-world protection levels, to a system which was ideologically designed to get around all that. Essentially, what I think I'm getting at is that if you're not willing to take the risk, you should probably stay out of BTC entirely. But that argument can be applied to lots of other things alike.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:19 | 4488547 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Red herring & strawman argument.

Regardless as to how one views the fiat banking system (FWIW, I have a strong distaste of many of its attributes), at least it can be said that for "qualified depositors," they are insured against loss up to $250,000 USD as long as their account resides in a FDIC Member Bank, and I know of NO instance since this has been the case where any such depositor wasn't made whole in the wake of a Member Bank failure by the FDIC.

You can now engage in the "but what about the future?", etc. type arguments, but those are the facts.

For Mt. Gox depositors, they receive a statement by Mr. Karpeles that he "is sorry for causing trouble."

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:54 | 4489167 Maximilien Robe...
Maximilien Robespierre's picture

I'm pretty sure that the FDIC was created as a socialist pacifier for the havoc that occurred after the 29 crash, since faith in banks was DOA. 

A lack of faith in the banks IS A GOOD THING.  Creating a false sense of security is what lulls millions into letting the cabal do what it wants with their labor.

The FDIC is backed by the same ponzi that all US debt is backed by and although you are correct that all ponzi participants have been made whole to date, there will come a day when they won't, and it's nearer than further away.

The sooner the general population stops trusting it's labor to be managed by 3rd parties for false promises of security THE BETTER.

I don't know a damn thing about Mt Cox, but what I do know is that people are way too god damn comfortable for the 2x4 of reality that's about to smack them aside the head, and ANYBODY who has to take some pain on a risk is a GOOD THING and HOW NATURE WORKS.  Anything else is just cheating reality.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 13:00 | 4489590 tmosley
tmosley's picture

If this is a Red Herring, Pool Shark is the one who threw it out.

And my post is not a strawman.  He is the one who was bitching about there being no FDIC for bitcoin as if that is a bad thing.

You don't really understand how government insurance works.  It's a ponzi scheme, like everything else they do.  Of COURSE depositors have always been made whole!  If they hadn't, it would mean the ponzi had collapsed!

Every client of Bernie Madoff was able to withdraw money from the fund whenever they wanted, until they couldn't, then they never could again.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:03 | 4488479 Patriot Eke
Patriot Eke's picture

The banks never had a reason to steal from themselves?  If the banks are what's really behind Bitcoin, then they would have every reason (once their maximum profit was assured).  It's just a theory.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:46 | 4488377 tmosley
tmosley's picture

The mafia steals from people, therefore it is easy to steal from the mafia.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:26 | 4488283 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

No cryptology whiz, but if each BitCoin has a "unique identifier" could those who took them not be tracked down?  If they trade them it's supposed to leave a digital trail (the blockchain, I believe).  Just saying, when you have $400MM of anything go missing, it pisses people off and they want it back.  In this case, many of those people are probably computer/networking/cryptology experts who could probably put together the resources for such an effort.

Hey, I just had an idea.  We should put Fonestar on this sleuthing!

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:30 | 4488295 EscapeKey
Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:26 | 4488631 DblAjent
DblAjent's picture

True. If there was a heist, the blockchains for each could have been dispersed to countless accounts/wallets, laundered through tumblers, and redirected to other anonymous wallets/accounts, even off-line cold storage.

However, based on several reports, gox had shoddy programming that was inevitable to fail. And once bitcoin are lost, they are gone forever.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:07 | 4488507 tunetopper
tunetopper's picture

I wonder how the Winklevoss twins are doing?

Does this Mt Gox Bcy hurt their chances to get SEC approval for an ETF?

 

Considering all the other frauds that the SEC has allowed to continue, Madoff, Naked-Shorting, Mis-treatment of Minority Shareholders through dilutive Majority Shldrs ex. XM Sirius, Greenmail, Insider Trading, Front Running, Avoiding regulating B/D's in the CDS market, CMO, SIV's, Arthur Anderson  phoney audits, eg Woldcom, Enron, Adelphia, Tyco, Oh well...

I dont see why the Winkie ETF cant  be launched.

 

 

As to the logging of Bitcoins using their unique identifiers--- ever heard of counterfeiting?  Its basically just duplicating serial numbers, or creating new yet bogus ones.  And with a computer (virtual) currency I can think of ways to trick the programming to allow a bogus serial number to be accepted for trade as though it were real.  Consider the new $100 bill, it would be pretty hard to duplicate $350mm in new Benjamins, but look how quickly the Bitcoins were "misplaced, lost, destroyed, ______________(u fill in  the blank)"

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:46 | 4488772 Fractal Parasite
Fractal Parasite's picture

$100 bills have been duplicated. BTC have not.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:19 | 4488259 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

If the comex fails, I will be on here talking about how gold could never be a legitimate currency.

 

Sorry to "burst everyone's bubble"

but bitcoin is already more of a legitimate currency than gold.

As it stands you can actually spend bitcoins and exchange them for things.

As with gold, you first have to exchange them for dollars and then go buy stuff with those dollars.

 

Bitcoin is an internet currency, free from the borders of nations.

Gold is centralized counterfeit plated tungsten manipulated by paper markets pretending to sell gold they don't even have.

 

The actions of one exchange does not nullify the success of millions of people working in unison together to free everyone from banker oligarchys around the world.

Gold will inevitably if it takes over . . .  endup with more centralized slavery systems, as no one is going to hold ounces of gold in their pocket to do business its too cumbersome, which means at some point you will have to trust someone else with your gold.

Bitcoins, trust is optional, you could simply be responsible for your own funds, true anarchism at its finest, no one to cry to , no one to "help you" by stealing from someone else.

Everyone is responsible for them-self with bitcoin.

Something centralized gold or centralized fiat can never achieve.

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:35 | 4488313 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

no sarc tag?

while my contractor has never even heard of bitcoin, he readily accepted gold and silver US coins as payment for building an entire house. Paid cash dollars for materials but all labor in gold and silver to him and his crew

AND, they are able to declare the income in the face dollar value of the coinage

you should see a guys eyes light up as you cross his palm with slver and gold

game over

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:17 | 4488566 Watson
Watson's picture

>>>
...they are able to declare the income in the face dollar value of the coinage
<<<

Is that legal, under the tax code?

Seems hard to believe that if you receive a 50 dollar gold eagle that counts as USD 50 rather than USD 1,300 or so...

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:06 | 4489216 Husk-Erzulie
Husk-Erzulie's picture

Alot of you gold bug types seem to believe that specie can circulate in a modern economy as currency.  You need to read some history because, guess what, it can't.  There are a number of serious problems with specie in the role of currency (which is exactly why we have fractional reserve banking, paper money, and ledger money today).  Paper/ledger currency, and the central banking model also have really serious problems, hence the movement by the open source/hacker/libertarian/min-archist/anarchist, and all other interested parties, global community to replace it.  Bitcoin is the crowd sourced solution to the lethal deficiencies of central banking.  It is a work in progress.  So, while paying your contractor with specie certainly has some novelty value and probably makes for charming cocktail party conversation and makes you seem edgy and cool, it is actually and de-evolutionary impulse... a fucking dead end.  So, read some monetary history.  Get yourself a really good understanding of specie and of fractional reserve and central banking models, Google the term anti-fragile and get to know the concept and then stop trashing the people who are trying to evolve beyond Central Bank Criminality, MIC criminality, Socialist/Fascist central government criminality ... and who are trying to proactively lay the foundation for an actual future for the human race

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 17:16 | 4490997 tunetopper
tunetopper's picture

"...and get to know the concept and then stop trashing the people who are trying to evolve beyond Central Bank Criminality, MIC criminality, Socialist/Fascist central government criminality ... and who are trying to proactively lay the foundation for an actual future for the human race.."

The problem is that the world has not moved to the level of modernity that you seem to imply.  I'd bet that the folks in the Crimea would rather have gold than Bitcoins of equal stated value. 

When 186 seperate countries are all in agreement that a one world currency is a good Idea- your ide of Bitcoin becomes more legit.  meanwhile I favor a commodity backed or GDP (output) backed currency, or one that is linked to a country with striong laws, military, and accounting practices, medicines, etc.  Your paradigm seems a long way off when considering the real world we live in.  Despite the fact that I dont trust the Fed, SEC, NSA, Obama, Hillary, MSNBC, FOX, General Dynamics, Boeing, GE, GM,CNBC, Bloomberg,  Monsanto, the CFR or the Supreme Court to help us anytime soon either.

 

 

 

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:37 | 4488322 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

@Dre4dwolf I'm no fan of gold, but at least gold has intrinsic value. Gold has the major advantage of being physical and tangeable, which is how it derives its intrinsic value. This the same reason I don't trust 'electronic' messaging services such as WhatsApp and 'email'. At least I can hold a physical letter in my hand. If an email gets lost, how do I even know about it? Anything purely electronic with no tangeable form is a scam ... PERIOD

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:38 | 4488330 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

when did you start making intelligent comments?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:46 | 4488369 RealityCheque
RealityCheque's picture

MDBs been hacked. He's full of reasoned points and is not at all the usual heavyweight trolling champ.

Therefore he is somebody else. Possibly Ron Paul??

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:53 | 4488417 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

According to Senator Joe Manchin III, who yesterday asked the Federal Reserve to ban Bitcoin but was rebuffed by Yellen, Bitcoin's psuedo-anonymity has intrinsic value, at least to criminals.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:14 | 4488534 TheCanadianAustrian
TheCanadianAustrian's picture

MDB is doing the same satire as always. If you can't recognize it, perhaps the joke is on you this time.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:19 | 4488581 Skin666
Skin666's picture

Anyone saying anything has 'intrinsic' value is not an intelligent comment.

 

Nothing has 'intrinsic' value.

 

All value is subjective.

 

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:24 | 4488617 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

You sound more like MDB than MDB does.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:23 | 4488611 mickeyman
mickeyman's picture

Did the original MDB have that '_' at the end of his name? I can't remember.

How's accredited times going?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:22 | 4488597 Blano
Blano's picture

Holy shit, I totally agree with you.

What's that crackling sound I hear??

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:31 | 4488629 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Gold's intrinsic value is dictated by a fraudulant paper market.

Without the volume the paper market brings gold would be trading at 100$ an oz.

 

What is value? who is the gold valuable to? where can you spend gold?

 

You people claim to want a "free market" and a currency not controlled by bankers.... but you jump in droves into the laps of banker owned assets.

Dump the bankers, Dump the gold, Dump the nostalgia the Victorian era is over.

It's the information age, the new gold is digital.

Until you can log into overstock.com and buy things with gold, its not a currency.

The intrinsic value of gold and it being tangible is exactly why it can not be a currency and has failed as a currency in the past.

Because gold is a "thing" grounded in reality, it always ends-up needing to be trusted to a third party (bank) to allow you to participate in finance and commercial activity with it on a global scale.

Third Parties can not be trusted.

Gold has proven this time and time again.

Gox has proven this yet again.

 

The beautiful thing about Bitcoin type currency is, at no time are you required to trust a third party for storage for any long-stretch of time, you can simply withdraw and hold the coins in cold storage at a location of your choosing, be - it a flash drive your pocket in your wallet on a paper wallet, you cell phone . . .  etc.

There is very little opportunity for someone to steal bitcoins if they are stored properly.... while with gold, if you don't have it in a vault its probably not yours, and if you want to spend it , it takes hours just to liquidate bellow spot.... the market is very slow . . .  when "real gold" is involved, it simply can not compete on a global level with the speed that a digital currency has.

 

Intrinsic value is meaningless if there is no one willing to transact with you for the things you want and need, have 1000 bricks of printer paper that has intrinsic value, but I can't go to BestBuy and buy a flat screen with it now can i?

Gold is a commodity.

Bitcoin is a digital currency that trades like a commodity.

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:40 | 4488734 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

In the internet-less future, man, you'll be able to buy stuff with gold.  Get with it.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:47 | 4488759 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

If it gets to the point where we lose

-The internet

-The grid

-The financial system

 

I think a better investment is some land, and still to make some booze.

Atleast I can drink my profits at that point and barter for something actually useful, the guy trying to hawk gold for food is going to be in for a rude awakening.

Without the grid, the population of the planet would drop 20% within the first year , gold is not going to save you from that.

http://www.hillbillystills.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PS8GKnb&cl...

If any metal is going to be valuable in the future road warrior age, copper and stainless will probably be it.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:57 | 4488860 Fractal Parasite
Fractal Parasite's picture

Let's say you're in the jungle with no internet / grid / banking system but you have a ton of food from your plantation that you cannot eat alone. Are you going to sit on your rotting crops and vegetables or will you gladly exchange them for gold coins in which you can store your wealth?

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:43 | 4489110 sleigher
sleigher's picture

That's wat the still is for.  Take your left over grains and convert them to a more storable form.  Then trade that for other supplies you may want/need.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 11:47 | 4489112 Dre4dwolf
Dre4dwolf's picture

Ill feed the food to live stock, who will in turn birth more young and multiply my wealth.

Also, alcohol is more valuable than gold in such a scenario.

I can burn the alcohol.

It can dress wounds and clear infections.

 

All that grain is FUEL, even if its rotting

Gold is... dead weight.

 

That's the difference in mind sets.

People who buy gold are cowards who only worry about not losing what they have, gold is a fearful weak mans asset, a dependent mans asset.

 

ill gladly take my rotting crops which can multiply my wealth in livestock or alcohol, than a useless hunk of metal that just sits there and collects dust....not productive at all.

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 12:42 | 4489478 MEAN BUSINESS
MEAN BUSINESS's picture

My what a nice plantation you have.

Gee thanks Mr! I'll give you some food for that shiny.

Gee thanks! Munch munch munch. Now give me back my shiny or I'll murder you. Law of the Jungle. 

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:38 | 4488331 CH1
CH1's picture

Sorry to "burst everyone's bubble"...

Let them go, Dre4Dwolf, this is their Two Minutes of Hate. You're not going to stop it. Facts don't matter. It's a feeding frenzy.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 09:58 | 4488454 Johnny Cocknballs
Johnny Cocknballs's picture

but bitcoin is already more of a legitimate currency than gold.

come... come on, man....

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:18 | 4488577 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture

"As with gold, you first have to exchange them for dollars and then go buy stuff with those dollars."

Nope. You are simply wrong. 

 I have transacted business with people on this forum where goods were exchanged directly for PM's. 

 

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:41 | 4488742 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Woooohooooo! It's a start.

Fri, 02/28/2014 - 10:22 | 4488604 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

More "truthiness" from the Bitcultism Bible I guess. Where can I get a copy of that? It sounds like just the thing to read when you seriously need a good laugh.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!