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Europe Can't Even Agree On Russian Trade Sanctions

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The (ironically named) United Kingdom is the first to openly raise concerns over trade sanctions against Russia. As The Telegraph reports,

"Britain is preparing to rule out trade sanctions against Russia amid fears that the Ukraine crisis could derail the global economic recovery"

Perhaps it is the fear of a massive liquidity suck out from London's real estate market (or its banking system) that has the Brits on edge. We suspect Germany will be close behind as they eye exploding gas and oil prices and their dependence on Russia's marginal production.

It would appear, just as in the case of Syria, that Obama may find himself alone among his allies...

 

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Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:30 | 4503810 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

This was obvious from the outset.

Who's supplying the oil and natgas?

How cold was it this past winter, anybody?

DaddyO

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:36 | 4503853 svayambhu108
svayambhu108's picture

Maybe they want ot blame the next crisis on Russia:
Ukraine Crisis Has Spill Over Effects Beyond Russia, Deutsche Bank Says 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:47 | 4503931 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

Not even the EU is dumb enough to bite the hand that feeds it.

Note oil exports from Russia to EU

http://s22.postimg.org/aclnsv7kx/Oil_Routes.png

Oh. Maybe we will let you keep Ukraine after all.

No hard feelings Mr Putin. Sir?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:13 | 4504031 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

This just in...

Russia pledges $5 billion to assist Scotish bid for independance from the UK...

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:22 | 4504107 NOTaREALmerican
NOTaREALmerican's picture

Re:  Russia pledges $5 billion to assist Scotish bid for independance from the UK...

Brilliant!   (I so wish that would happen)

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:37 | 4504384 max2205
max2205's picture

LOL!!!!!!

Fish and chips

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:46 | 4504416 macholatte
macholatte's picture

 

The EU can't carry its own water. They ran out of ammo when they went up against Libya.

So maybe Kerry went over there to tell them that all they are going to get from America is hot air. Now it's time for the EU to choke on its own vomit. Dip shits.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:38 | 4504563 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

""Britain is preparing to rule out trade sanctions against Russia amid fears that the Ukraine crisis could derail the global economic recovery""

 

I believe the British term is 'circle jerk'.

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 02:14 | 4505498 SDShack
SDShack's picture

Maybe the DHS can start a new "Lend-Lease" program for Europe for some of the billions of rounds of ammo they are stockpiling.

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 06:42 | 4505822 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Putin's adviser on economics Sergei Glazyev said:
- Russia will abandon the dollar.
- And also Russia will create its currency system , together with China and other countries.
- And also Russia will abandon all public U.S. Treasuries.
- And also Russia will refuse to return any U.S. loans.
- And also Russia will arrest all assets of the United States and the West.
- And also Russian will stop all Russian oil and gas supplies to Europe. Oil and gas from Russia will go to China.
- And also Russia already has banned the import of meat from the United States.
Goodbye dollar, hello gold. Goodbye to the United States and the West, hello China and East.

http://x2t.com/287425

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:50 | 4503937 nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

YOu mean there is a recovery?  lmao.  Amazing that Obama cares so much about the Ukraine.  There are less people living in the Ukraine than there are Americans on foodstamps.

So obvious that this little country is a banker / energy strategic play.

Obama wants to preserve petro-dollar, and that's it.  This has NOTHING to do with what the media says it does.

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 22:31 | 4504814 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Obama doesn´t even think about the petro-dollar.  His head in concerned with how to keep the public befuddled with Obamacare, the "war on women", immigration, free entitlements, and gay rights.  It´s like the guy is trying to build a nice house in the middle of a raging forest fire...which he just refuses to acknowledge.

The next President is going to be so fucked after this shitshow is over (let alone the rest of us).  I can´t bekieve anybody would want the job.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:50 | 4503959 john39
john39's picture

what a shock, once real opposition arises,  the theiving sociopaths running governments around the world can't stick together on their global domination schemes.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:15 | 4504082 Jlasoon
Jlasoon's picture

Sucks when your livelihood is in the hands of the enemy. The world economy is so fragile they risk destroying it overnight over this petty Russian show of force. The Russians move troops into an old soviet satellite state overnight without firing a shot and the sociopaths in the West go absolutely bonkers threatening WW3. You can't make this stuff up. The West is in no position to dictate anything; we're broke. As I've said before this ends when Putin wants it to end. He's got too much leverage right now. Plus this is happening in his own backyard. I'm in no the mood for $10/gal gas.

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:25 | 4504126 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

My God.  People are starting to understand.

Russia cuts off Europe . . . and the conclusion is Russia is hurt by lost revenue?

People OPEN YOUR FUCKING EYES!!  You can live a lot longer with gasoline and diesel powering your tractors and food transport, but having poor finances -- than you can with excellent finances and no food on the shelves because YOU DON'T HAVE ANY FUCKING OIL.

MONEY DOES NOT TRUMP OIL.  OIL TRUMPS MONEY.

Go to bed reciting this.

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:40 | 4504191 thestarl
thestarl's picture

As i've said before CO look at the PIIGS apart from being stone cold motherless broke they're totally reliant on oil and gas imports and we know they will never recover only further misery awaits.

Barroso, Van Rompuy,Draghi etc deserve the same outcome as Mussolini the fascist bastards.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:51 | 4504239 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Maybe Johnny Zio McCain can give the Europeans blankets, to stay warm, that areinfected with smallpox just like we did to the American Indians.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:07 | 4504289 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

It was the weather.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:48 | 4503863 Independent
Independent's picture

A lot of the Big Western Oil companies are involved in planned projects for the Russian Arctic region and several of them already have joint projects with the Russians in the Far East.  Lots of these politicians have stock in these companies they would do nothing to hurt their portfolios.  Putin can really apply the screws to them.  The Euros will do absolutely NOTHING

Putin also knows that if gas prices go through the roof and if there is energy shortage in Europe there will be some serious demonstrations in the streets that can put a lot of Euros Politicos out of jobs.  Plus the Russians buy a lot of Euro goods, if they slow down the stuff at the border you will see lots of Factories close in France and those French can cause real problems on the streets of Paris and beyond. No wonder the Euros didnt have their hearts on fighting the Russians for Ukraine, Nuland and her buddies could care less I am sure part of that 5 billion dollars is cooling its heels in offshore and onshore accounts in Israel and Switzerland ready to buy Ukraine assets for pennies on the dollar.  Nuland has high aspirations on being an oligarch herself.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:51 | 4503963 walküre
walküre's picture

Those investors probably own stock in other oil companies as well. Whatever their losses on the Russian deal might be would be their gain everywhere else. Not a big deal imo.

Russians are sending their money out of Russia right now is a much bigger issue. Putin is faced with potential bank runs very soon. Who wants to hold Ruble when Russia is fading back to USSR style bore and tyranny?

The reason why Russians have bought all over Europe, mainly London and the South of France is because they need to get their money out. Same as the Chinese. Russian wealth has always been on a one way street OUT of Russia and that will only increase and accelerate due to the latest developments.

Thanks Putin! The Association of London Realtors thanks you.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:24 | 4504122 chump666
chump666's picture

Very good post.

The outflows is what is freaking Vlad and his central bank and cronies.  He plugged Bitcoin, but he still relies on the Oligarchs for support, UK is over debited dreamland reliant on inflows of funds from rich Russians (buying up property), as is France, Spain etc etc.  EU has no balls, proven they way they handled the PIIGS and got played by the IMF.  Russia should be slammed with sanctions, Vlad is playing his chess game again, and his awful opponent Obama don't wanna play.  Ukraine could be left in the cold. 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:29 | 4504143 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Why can't you understand?

It's a world of scarcity.  Money is whimsically printed.  It is now only a convenience.  Russia may soon stop accepting that paper for something that actually has value, oil.

Think about what that means.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:48 | 4504228 walküre
walküre's picture

Rosneft is majority state owned but Lukoil is 2nd biggest public energy co. after XOM.

Putin thinks he can piss off the OILigarchs? He better think again and I don't care to hear the man is ex KGB and all that shit.

He needs money to pay for his government or he's toast. As a matter of fact, I dare say Putin is a dead man walking. The OILigarchs are planning to eff him as we speak here. Wouldn't surprise me one bit!

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:34 | 4504547 angel_of_joy
angel_of_joy's picture

FYI there are no badass oligarchs left in Russia. Putin took care of the most rebelious ones (does the names Khodorkovsky or Berezovsky ring a bell ?) and brought the softer ones under the KGB control (sorry, I meant FSB). That's why he is so popular among his people, by the way...

Everything in Russia is under the control of the KGB, on top of which sits Putin himself.

Your lack of understanding of a relatively simple power equation is painfull...

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:15 | 4504301 Independent
Independent's picture

What you think the average American or Russian can affort he multimillion dollar London real estate??? Come on, the money running out are the oligarchs.  And they were pouring out of Russia with what they stole way before all this happened.  Not only that but the money has been running offshore out of the USA for a long time too, you realize there are trillions unaccounted for in the pentagon and quite a bit of TARP money that never had to be accounted for.  Lots of International House Hunters out there from the West also.  Lots of middle class Americans paying for someone elses Swank International ocean front property with open concept kitchens with granite countertops and exotic hardwood flooring through the devaluation of their retirement savings and monthly income.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:45 | 4503914 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Russia will be the largest auto market in Europe in 2016 surpassing Germany.  BMW, Mercedes, Audi/VW and others sell a lot of cars in Russia.  They have full factories and assembly factories.  The Germans better wake up and smell the coffee.   The USA and EU(SSR) pulled this phony revolution aka really a coup bullshit.   They started it.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:58 | 4503998 walküre
walküre's picture

Bullshit. Not enough Russians have a pot to piss in let alone the funds to buy a new German car. It's a market but probably less important than even Italy.

China is where it's at in terms of growth and sales going forward.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:10 | 4504056 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Putin just blew 50 billion on the Olympics.
So he could "take out Mom and Dad"?

Sorry...but he ain't that rich.

"What is the Mission Statement Dimitri"?
You've already got the situation all wrong.
What is the GOAL here.

This is "Army 101" here Dimitri.
Or are your forces "acting without orders"?
"Preparing to commit atrocities"?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:32 | 4504155 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Can you do math?

Multiply 8 MILLION BARRELS/DAY X 365 DAYS/YEAR X $110 / BARREL BRENT.

What do you get?  Hundreds and Hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars per year drained from the printers and sent to Russia.  You think he cares about a lousy 50 billion?

He will stop taking dollars for that oil soon.  He'll want food instead.  Maybe some slave labor.  If you were pumping that much oil, why would you take paper for it?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:50 | 4504236 walküre
walküre's picture

Personally he is pumping shit. It's not HIS oil. He is one man and his government is walking a tight rope here. He can't cut the losses at $110 oil, what makes you think he can do it at $150?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:07 | 4504291 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

If this is the end game, all kinds of weird shit can happen, like sacrificing queens and rooks. I have no idea if this is the end game.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:15 | 4504314 UselessEater
UselessEater's picture

the chess board is being spun around

a recent Jim Willie report points to a likely or growing Russia-China-Germany alliance with UK, US diminshed

we'll see once TPTB stop spinning the board

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:18 | 4504329 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Have you seen what europeans in the "commoner countries" are paying for electricty? Yea, the green stuff all those windmills are producing and what about the food prices too?  

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:59 | 4504268 Freddie
Freddie's picture

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20140115-701732.html

2.78 million units in 2013.  2.93 million in 2012.  Second only to Germany in Europe.   Russia will surpass Germany in 2016.

Almost 45,000 BMW sold in Russia in 2013 versus 375,000 in the USA.

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/pressDetail.html;jsessionid=7vvnTVWNq...!1262392377?title=bmw-group-posts-record-global-sales-for-2013&outputChannelId=9&id=T0163945EN_US&left_menu_item=node__804

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:21 | 4504341 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

On the high end...

 

http://www.marussiamotors.ru/en/

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:14 | 4504496 walküre
walküre's picture

My mistake. I misread your post as implying more German cars were sold in Russia than in Germany by 2016.

With 150 million people, the Russians are driving many cars but what cars?. India's car market is 6x that of Russia's market. Doesn't mean its comparable to the US or EU markets.

Russia's market isn't anywhere close to the EU market as a whole.

BMW is selling close to 400,000 units in China, that's 9x as much as Russia. China is where it's at.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:25 | 4504532 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Might want to get your facts straight. India car market is approx 3.3 m, just a little bigger than russia with 8 times the population

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:23 | 4504346 Independent
Independent's picture

Dude OIL talks, without it all that wonderful German Luxury car production just sits useless and RUSTS.  The Germans learned that the hard way in WW2 when they didnt have enough oil.  OIL IS KING!!!

Face it Russia strattles a HUGE portion of the world land mass.  Lots of stuff undiscovered in that ground.  That is why NATO has been trying to squeeze the Russians and funding all those lovely NGOs in Russia hoping to break up Russia into digestible pieces.  We can't take them on militarily because of all those nukes, but if we can destroy them from within then the nukes are not a problem.  Only problem is that at this stage of the game we are pretty morally corrupt and may crash and burn before we can set the Russians of fire.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:49 | 4503940 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Perhaps you haven't noticed the Europeans' fetish for retreating behind the closed doors of a conference room to engage in endless mutual masturbation sessions, they're just getting around to deciding who gets to play the hero and who the villain in their next fantasy, and this go on for quite a while, even with everyone entirely cognizant of the happy ending they're all pulling for.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:08 | 4504045 Canadian Dirtlump
Canadian Dirtlump's picture

The EU called off the dogs in a moment of clarity, as evidenced by the AIDS harpie Victoria Noodleman's overtures that they go play a game of hide and go fuck themselves. Now the Satanic Us dual citizens have dragged the western world to yet another precipice of war. Between Ukraine, Syria, and the Chinese / Japanese / dirty knees / look at these escalations - one of them is bound to start a broader shooting war ( which is what they are pining for ).

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:17 | 4504083 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Usually a US President isn't a Lame Duck until his last year, but in Obama's case...

1. The GOP is planning to have "Duck a l'Orange" for 2014 Mid-Terms. 

2. And we know what kind of Duck the Chinese are having to celebrate the occasion.  ;-)

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:30 | 4503812 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

Russia invading Ukraine...yawwn.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:30 | 4503813 Mongo
Mongo's picture

Awesome!

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:30 | 4503818 RetiredSilverBug
RetiredSilverBug's picture

Londongrad loves russian money.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:59 | 4504009 walküre
walküre's picture

Now more than ever! Invasion of Russian money to go into hyperdrive in 3,2,1...

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:32 | 4503830 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

...the Ukraine crisis could derail the global economic recovery"

 

Now THAT is some funny shit right there.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:49 | 4503943 sixsigma cygnus...
sixsigma cygnusatratus's picture

...the Ukraine crisis might cause inflation! Lolololololololo!!!!!!!!!!!

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:33 | 4503835 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Putin is going to take the Ukraine. He's then going to do a reverse Hitler. Whats to stop him ???

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:56 | 4503993 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

Apparently the Ukranian Army have a large stock pile of pea shooters and catapults , that should hold them off for a while.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:57 | 4504002 Martian Tourist
Martian Tourist's picture

I'll stop him with my death ray

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:33 | 4503837 resurger
resurger's picture

That's why you don't isolate russia, russia isolates you

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:24 | 4504121 NOTaREALmerican
NOTaREALmerican's picture

I thought that was Chuck Norris...

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 02:52 | 4505581 hero HNL
hero HNL's picture

Chuck Norris will not work.

 

You need to call the 1st SS Panzer Divison Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler. Under the command of Joachim Peiper, it captured & recaptured Kharkov 2 times from the Soviet Union in a dramatic battle.

 

 

hero

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:00 | 4504446 UselessEater
Tue, 03/04/2014 - 02:26 | 4505526 SDShack
SDShack's picture

I've been saying it for 2 days, the West Coup plotters screwed up by just laying siege to Kiev. They thought they won when Kiev fell. All the real power centers are in the South and East, industrial, military, energy, financial, economic, tax base, etc. Kiev is just an empty shell now without those power centers, and they are going to be on the receiving end of the next siege that is coming.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:34 | 4503840 magpie
magpie's picture

It matters not what they think, the USA and Canada will command it.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:42 | 4504580 angel_of_joy
angel_of_joy's picture

Oh, Canada !

Not The Loonie, please !!!

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:34 | 4503845 MeMongo
MeMongo's picture

Hardy frickin har! It's no wonder obangie is ousting all our Generals ,there will be no teeth to anything this idiots says or does from here on out! Forward!

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:05 | 4504035 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

There can only be One Leader.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:34 | 4503846 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

Totally credible. Why, if Eric Holder saw fit not to throw the HSBC drug traffickers in jail lest we the Great Recession into GDP II then it stands to reason that a real damper on trade would do the trick.

I respect Eric Holder. He knows a lot about economics and that prosecuting Jon Corzine after his company was out of business would also crush the recovery. It is fragile out there boys and girls. Tread lightly.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:03 | 4504028 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Like Obama's education in constitutional law, they only study so as to better destroy or defeat, not support America.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:36 | 4503850 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

."the Ukraine crisis could derail the global economic recovery"

I think that warrants a /sarc.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:36 | 4503854 Bosch
Bosch's picture

Any day now this is happening at a press conference:  

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG_C_Kb2xrU

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:39 | 4503875 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Wurd.

LOL

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:41 | 4503884 The Wisp
The Wisp's picture

I would love to see Obama kick over his teleprompter and go ghetto, slam down something and say I Quit, F*&^ this Sh^%

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:43 | 4504398 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

Obama is a wigger.  No ghetto there.  Shit, He can't even walk his dogs in his own fucking neighborhood without armed guards.  I hereby challenge the "Most Powerful Man in the World" to walk 3 blocks west of his own home, at night, w/o his army, in his "work" clothes, on a nice hot summer evening.  I bet ol' Vlad would last a hellava lot longer than O.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:46 | 4504224 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

you win, you made my whisky come out ma nose......... it burns it burns

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:37 | 4503858 monger
monger's picture

rule one for ukraine and europe, don't bite that feeds you, or that keeps you warm and lit.

rule for uk, don't risk losses by betting against the strong hand.

rule for us, too late, better to cut your losses and focus on damage control.

black swan? 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:54 | 4503981 Freddie
Freddie's picture

The USA better be careful.  If any shooting starts - this may expose how crappy the US weapons are and could really hurt export sales.  The M16/M4 is still defective after 50 years. The F-35 is junk and allies are cancelling.  Stealth is a scam according to, Pierre Sprey, one of the guys responsible for the F-16 and A-10.  He is one of the critics of the junk F-35.   F-22 was cancelled after some of them were made. 

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:01 | 4504020 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Its not a failure if it provides jobs to hard working Americans. No really! Obama railed against Bush's prolific spending, but once he took office he explained that ALL spending was stimulative and therefore a good thing. Defective weapon systems seems like a perfect fit for his lead from behind, progress at any cost agenda. For Obama the only morally acceptable outcome for war is to be the loser, even if we started it.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:35 | 4504073 nightshiftsucks
nightshiftsucks's picture

Yeah and Russia is different and makes real weapons ? Stupid fucks. They built 180 F22's,too expnsive.The F35 isn't even operational.The US weapons have been recently proven in battle,what about Russia's ? Nope Oh yeah they have that super weapon that shoots everything out of the sky,now can one of you dumb fucks point me to the data that proves that ? Nope just like I thought,just a bunch of dumb fucks.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:44 | 4504214 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Russia's most powerful weapon is the hand on the spigot.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:24 | 4504353 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Here is why the F-35 is shit.   The wings are a joke.   The guy criticizing it helped create the F-16 and A-10 over the Air Force objections.  He worked on the F-15 but said it was getting too big and heavy so they weorked to create the F-16.   The F-16 is still the best plane in the US inventory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDSiwqM2nw

The creepy Rand Corp did a simulation called Pacific Vision and the F-35 got destroyed by the Chinese in a simulation over the Taiwan Straits.

 http://www.stopthef35.com/rand-corp-f35-cant-turn-cant-climb-cant-run/

F-22 is junk as well.

https://www.google.com/#q=f-22+junk

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/f-22-performances-1...

"Then Truth Revealed by the United States Department of Defense, the United States Air Force (USAF), the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) and the US RAND Corporation Research ANd Development, US and Australia Pacific Vision data.

The exercise PACAFs Pacific Vision on sept 25/08 revealed the United States air superiority is just a fantasy. The exercise was consisted of face the Red Team one hundred Su-27SM, four Su-30 and two Su-35 against Blue Team one hundred F-35, one hundred eighty seven F-22 and four hundred F/A-18E/F. The exercise showed the blue team higher in number of aircraft is double inferior when hundreds of Blue Forces aircraft were lost in the first 20 minutes downed by the Red Forces., on the other hand only 12 aircraft was downed in the Red Team.

Pacific Vision effect the production of the F-22 was canceled and the F-35 project not longer receives investment all since 2008 by Barack Hussein Obama II and Robert Michael Gates."

and watch this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27qdB1D0s9M

Read more: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/f-22-performances-1...

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:48 | 4504428 fooshorter
fooshorter's picture

OO right the RAND corporation, you mean the think tank that the Douglas Corporation owns??? Gee I wonder who no longer makes fighter jet Mcdonald/douglas/boeing. Of course their going to trash Lockheed martins design.  

Even if this was true, the majority of the US is the highly superior F/A-18 which is produced by Mcdonald/douglas/boeing. I bet they would make more money if they proved their competitors planes are inferior.

If your read the link to the forum about Pac Vision you will see how badly it has been misunderstood. F35/F22 have always been polical footballs that have been caught in dc horsetrading.

Im sorry but US is an excellent position to take on eastern powers.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:41 | 4504576 nightshiftsucks
nightshiftsucks's picture

Don't bother wit Freddy,he is a stupid fuck who believes everything he reads.The only way to find out the truth is to have a war,until then it's all bullshit.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:56 | 4504438 fooshorter
fooshorter's picture

 

On Sept 25/08, the RAND Corporation stepped in with a statement of their own  concerning the August 2008 Pacific Vision simulation performed under its wide-ranging Project Air Force mandate:

“Recently, articles have appeared in the Australian press with assertions regarding a war game in which analysts from the RAND Corporation were involved. Those reports are not accurate. RAND did not present any analysis at the war game relating to the performance of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, nor did the game attempt detailed adjudication of air-to-air combat. Neither the game nor the assessments by RAND in support of the game undertook any comparison of the fighting qualities of particular fighter aircraft”

 

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:16 | 4504492 Freddie
Freddie's picture

BS.  Rand Corp retracted the report that was never supposed to be released because they get govt money.   The F-35 is junk because the wings are too short, it is overweight, underpowered, too thick  and very thin skinned.  Junk.

What do you call an overwight, underpowered jet that is thick to get fans and weapons inside and has short wings that make turning crap?  A brick.   Oh and the software code is millions of lines and they are using substandard programmers like the health.gov web site.

The F-35 is so insanely expensive to build, maintain and fly that pilots will get limited seat time - so flight training is limited.  A real winner.  

The biggest critic is the guy who helped develop the F-16.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 23:11 | 4505007 fooshorter
fooshorter's picture

1. Thrust vectoring makes up for the aerodynamic frame, which if you read the link all the test pilots attribute to standard 4.5 gen performance, I agree with that it not intended as a super agility fighter as that is the f22 role and far less likely in modern combat.

2. The code is firmware compiled code and has no simulatrity to web design code which are in different languages and completely different perfomance criteria. 

3. I agree that f35 is insanely expensive, i remember when they were selling it as a cheaper f22..

4. F-16 the electric jet is still a severly capable aircraft, but it all depends on the avionics and EW systems installed on the aircraft, and that is the point. It doesn't matter whos plane out manuvers who, its all about electronic warfare and maintaining real time battlefield awareness, which no other country comes close to except NATO. 

Thank you for making us think tonight, i really enjoyed these posts...

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:38 | 4504562 nightshiftsucks
nightshiftsucks's picture

You're a stupid fuck Freddy,the truth will come when the missle fly,until then you are just a stupid fuck. You're one of those fucking clowns who bellieves everything that you read.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:24 | 4504118 agent default
agent default's picture

I am curious to see how those M16s perform in the Russian mud land.  The lulz on that one alone would be worth WWIII.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:55 | 4504255 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

The best weapon in our arsenal is winning the hearts and........ fuck I can't even type that with a straight face .......

but if we did, if we did, and if we did want to win ..... nope still can't do it ....

here's a video pay attention to the intro from orwell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH5vaaarpqk

peace mofo's

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:28 | 4504135 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

But don't those F-35s have those cool sci-fi Helmet-Mounted Displays (HMDs), where things are projected on the inside of the Visor?  And aren't they a joint US-Israeli development?  That's what I heard... from reliable sources.

Why, if you combined that with a Helmet Motion Detector (to determine what Field of View the pilot is looking at), and with NIR LEDs to detect pupil motion (to determine at what part of the Field of View he is focusing on), then you can determine exactly what and where the pilot is looking at.  And if you combine that with thought-to-activation menus, then all he has to do is look at something, think "Aim, Fire!".  Then he can "forget" about that target and go on to the next target.

Sci-Fi?  You'd think so, but the fact is... the Tech exists TODAY.  They just don't like to talk about it.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:11 | 4504304 11b40
11b40's picture

And all of that is just lovely, but a shooting war w/Russia might leave the fly boys with no place to land.  No place that is not radioactive, that is.

What does an EMP blast do to all the tech?

We couldn't beat pungi stakes in the 60's & we couldn't beat IED's in Irag.

I am sure it's fun to fly, but it is no fun paying for it.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:22 | 4504345 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

between IED's and IDF sniper teams it was a hard slog.....

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:36 | 4504380 fooshorter
fooshorter's picture

Wrong on all accounts.

Each F22 is an air supremcy figther not air superiority which means it dominates an entire battlefield. Couple that with advanced electronic warfare systems that the west has, Russia has no chance. Russian fighters have superior manuveriablity but very old instruments. The F35 won't even be needed at modern euro fighters, f15, and fa18s are plenty deadly to handle whatever the eastern technology exists. The F22 was put on hiatus because there was no justification to make more. 

Even if the F35 isjunk you have not accounted for all the drones both stealth and non steatlh. The russians are holding on to old technology. In modern warefare you can parade a new hyersonic missle or missle barrage but if you don't have the advanced electronic warefare systems through the kill chain your just irrelevant.

Saddam Hussian had the biggest baddest RUSSIAN armed miletary ever and the US alone made it to a turkey shoot. literally. Even if the russians are better with their own equipment it is a minority chance they would eek out a stalement.  

As for stealth, the russians have long led a disinformation campaign that they have radar that can detect stealth with older used frequencies. This is laughable and obvious, the milatery industrial complex is not as naive as you are.

 

 

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:10 | 4504483 Freddie
Freddie's picture

The Russians did not say stealth was a scam, the guy who was on the team who developed the F-16 and A-10 said it.  Doofus.   The same guy said US Air Force fire and forget missile technology in air to air is a fantasy.  

Oh and Saddam did not have state of the art stuff.   His stuff was 3 generations old.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 23:17 | 4505040 fooshorter
fooshorter's picture

O really:

 

"The key conclusion we must draw from the latest Gulf war is that the obsolete structure of the Russian armed forces has to be urgently changed," says Vladimir Dvorkin, head of the Russian Defense Ministry's official think tank on strategic nuclear policy. "The gap between our capabilities and those of the Americans has been revealed, and it is vast. We are very lucky that Russia has no major enemies at the moment, but the future is impossible to predict, and we must be ready."

 

And to my point that was 2003. NATO has increased far more then russia has even attempted in the 10 years since when it comes battlefield situational awareness. The media can call barry a putz all they want and some ZH can lord over Putin, but the truth is Putin is out gunned and had his key sateillite state ripped from under him. 

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0416/p06s01-woiq.html

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 03:39 | 4505651 the tower
the tower's picture

Russia won't cut gas supply to Europe, half of Russia's income comes from Europe.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:40 | 4503862 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Just where the hell is Boris ??? Or should I say "Vlad" ???

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:41 | 4503883 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

He's the one importing those Mexican flags from China.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:30 | 4504151 Clowns on Acid
Clowns on Acid's picture

Boris is in his submarine ..

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:48 | 4504229 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

... yacht.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 21:22 | 4504522 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

Naa , he's digging trenches ....

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:43 | 4503900 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Busy

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:44 | 4503905 Rainman
Rainman's picture

internet is forbidden in the stalag I suspect.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:57 | 4503999 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

he's with Natasha trying to capture squirrel and moose for Fearless Leader

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:11 | 4504061 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

or dinner

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:39 | 4503874 Poofter Priest
Poofter Priest's picture

 

BP won't allow it.

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:40 | 4503880 Caveman93
Caveman93's picture

What was is it someone stated not too long ago? "Fuck the EU" or something to that effect?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:43 | 4503899 The Wisp
The Wisp's picture

Solution is Easy... Just let Russia into the EU, there Fixed everything...      /H

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:47 | 4504421 UselessEater
UselessEater's picture

interesting Guardian reader comment:

"Government document photographed outside No 10 states that 'London's financial centre' should not be closed to Russians

This is a deliberately revealed document, signaling that London is not ready (or cannot afford) going all the way with the U.S. economic sanctions. Watch for Germany and France sending similar messages. I suspect more confidential documents will be falling off the back of trucks!"

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:43 | 4503898 hangemhigh77
hangemhigh77's picture

He'll get a shooting war started if he doesn't get the sanctions.  There's gonna be a war one way or another.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:43 | 4503901 Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder's picture

So you mean an interconnected world has it's drawbacks? But that's not what they taught me in Econ 101!

/sarc

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:45 | 4503910 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Britain and Mutti are like tea and coffee. 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:45 | 4503916 hangemhigh77
hangemhigh77's picture

How many troops do we have twiddling their thumbs in Germany?  Time to put those boys to work and get as many of them killed as possile. They've been sitting there doing jack shit for 70 years?  Lock and load you slackers.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:56 | 4503994 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

We are there to lend moral suport and lead the retreat.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 23:49 | 4505147 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

You are completely wrong. U.S. troops in Germany do their job perfectly. They are making sure that the Germans are not asking too many questions (if any) about what happened to their gold after receiving only 5 tonnes back. /s

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:46 | 4503919 geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

Putin got to Queen Elizabeth---- she wants her caviar and Stolichnaya delivered on time

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:47 | 4503926 stant
stant's picture

and whats china gona pull here soon. vlad knows something

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:49 | 4503927 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

not so great britain

butt no matter

ausrailia and poland stands firm ready for the white heat of putins deadly toys.

we few we lucky few poles will gladly commit are pointless lives for a gay black man.

who nose we may see some gay weddings in ukraine before the coming nuclear winter.

analism is worth the heat boyz trust your potus

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:55 | 4503990 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

ARE YOU AGAINST PROGRESS??!!

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:05 | 4504039 Freddie
Freddie's picture

http://theweek.com/article/index/257285/speedreads-gay-and-lesbian-troop...

American troops having gay dance parties.

The Russians just laugh.  In addition, the Pentagon and Congress are so corrupt that most of the weapons systems are overpriced junk that does not work.  F-35 is garbage.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:51 | 4504231 nightshiftsucks
nightshiftsucks's picture

Oh Freddy you're a little punk ass bitch.I challenge you,I'll put mud all over and inside of my AR if you stand in front of the barrel while I test fire it.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:42 | 4504403 Freddie
Freddie's picture

I never said AR's.  I said M4/M16.  Yeah yeah I know they are the same platform supposedly.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/21/are-u-s-soldiers-carrying-fla...

Soldiers are complaining that the weapons they’ve been issued may be fatally flawed.

“The reliability is not there,” Army Senior Warrant Officer Russton B. Kramer, told the Washington Times of the Army’s primary rifle – the M4 carbine. “I would prefer to use something else. If I could grab something else, I would.” 

Kramer, a 20-year Green Beret, believes if a solider wants to improve their chances of survival, the best bet is to make modifications to the Army’s standard-issue model. Operators and policy makers have debated the M4?s value for years, and documents obtained by the Washington Times show the Pentagon was warned before the Afghanistan and Iraq wars that several M4 carbine iterations were flawed and might jam or fail, especially in the harsh desert conditions that both wars inflicted. 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:09 | 4504051 Donewidit
Donewidit's picture

Pwease tell me that your first language isn't engwish...

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:47 | 4503935 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

All they have to do is turn the fucking oil & gas taps off and Europe's lights will go out . Russia has the EU by the bollocks and they know it.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:53 | 4503945 Martian Tourist
Martian Tourist's picture

Apparently:

Uk don't want financial sanctions because of Russian investment.

Germany don't want economic sanctions because of the nat gas they import

France don't want arms sanctions because they have 2 aircraft carriers to deliver to Russia

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:54 | 4503980 magpie
magpie's picture

Solution

Print

Buy Qatari LNG

France is on tptb's chopping board as much as Russia. Expect colored revolution (das racis i know) soon.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:54 | 4503983 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Corruption relies on dependency. We are all dependent upon the corruption continuing, and that is why it does.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:49 | 4503950 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

Depending on the sanction, some sanctions can be considered an act of war. Unlike Iraq, I think Russia will not just stand by and be sanctioned.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:52 | 4503957 Martian Tourist
Martian Tourist's picture

Duplicate deleted

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:50 | 4503958 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

How about this: Hey Ruskis, we won't send you anymore Euros for your oil and gas. Are those the kind of sanctions?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:17 | 4504324 11b40
11b40's picture

How about this: Hey EU, we are not taking Fiatskies anymore of our oil & gas.  Send gold.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:52 | 4503968 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

No one can do a fucking thing about Putin because we are all broke, our financial systems reliant upon a public trust that only exists because of the fraud that perpetuates providing free shit sustenance for its victims. People have understood from the beginning of time that security lies in having the savings or stockpiles of necessities to survive through periods of hardship. We have nothing. We must effectively borrow to eat. We cannot make threats because we have forgotten how to sacrifice, how to live with the austerity that is required to do the hard things. I am not suggesting we do anything about Russia, only that we lack the ability. Americans and Europeans will not sacrifice anything for anyone. At best we are a mob that only becomes a threat to anyone if they touch our shit or try to deprive us of something. We have been pacified.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:20 | 4504335 Accounting101
Accounting101's picture

Austerity??? The Oligarchs love talk of austerity, especially when the rubes are advocating for their own economic destruction.

"Those assests are not yours and besides, they are just worthless IOU's. Pensions are unaffordable, therefore you must invest in Wall Street. You must sacrifice and learn to live with less. We are too big to fail, and you will bail us out."

Jedi mind tricks always did work on the feeble minded.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:22 | 4504342 11b40
11b40's picture

100% on target, but we are also doubly screwed.  MAD means we can't really do jack about any country w/nukes.  See N. Korea if in doubt.

What we need to do is learn to shut up and mind our own business.  God knows we have enough problems of our own.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:53 | 4503971 DeliciousSteak
DeliciousSteak's picture

It seems to me the EU has indeed come up with a (fairly) united front on this issue. The foreign ministers held talks earlier and it was agreed that sanctions are off the table for now, though the idea can be revisited later, and many of them have expressed that a new-old divide between east and west is not in anyone's interest. So Britain is basically saying what most of them already agree on.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:53 | 4503977 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Don't forget the beach tourists.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:54 | 4503978 mutty
mutty's picture

Globe makers. Buy Globe Makers.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:10 | 4503987 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

US/EU/NATO sanctions may have partial success but in a longer run Russia, with all her resources and brain power, can switch to autarkic economy should US/EU/NATO imposed any meaningful sanctions or forced isolation. The current threat of freezing Russia's and Russian citizens' assets in US/EU/NATO controlled countries may already have (un)intended consequences as the rich Russians may have already started moving their bank deposits in the West to Russia or Hong Kong, Macao or Singapore. Visa restrictions will work both ways and will make it very difficult for the US/EU/NATO controlled corprations to do business not only in Russia but in the whole CIS. Eventually, it may lead to Russia's nationalization of foreign corporations on her soil for pennies on a dollar. Also, the expensive resorts in EU will suffer, too, as well-to-do Russian tourists will opt for spanky new Sochi or (soon to be renovated) Crimea resorts instead of Côte d'Azur or Costa del Sol, thus supporting their national economy rather than EU's. All this BS is completely unnecessary. Let Ukraine split and have her western part join EU, Poland or both, let the remaining part of the country become a republic within Russian Federation.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:23 | 4504111 DonFromWyoming
DonFromWyoming's picture

US/EU sanctions means goodbye ISS.  The US astronauts there now will be the last US astronauts in space for a very long time.  In 100 years, China and Russia will be to off-planet colonization what Spain, Portugal, France and Britain were to the new world.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:53 | 4504418 Freddie
Freddie's picture

NASA cannot get US astronauts to the space station.  LOL!  Hope & Change.

All the old Germans working for Von Braun died and we "don't know how to git em up there."  Burt Rutan thinks NASA is a joke.  Burt is the closest thing we have to Von Braun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Rutan

Burt thinks AGW is bullshit so he ain't an O boy or libturd.

The Russians know how to deal with hardship.  Americans go mental when McDonalds screws up their chicken mcnuggets order.  With GMO fake food shit.

Wait til those EBT/WIC cards stop working.

Tue, 03/04/2014 - 00:16 | 4505219 Independent
Independent's picture

When you sit on a good chunk of the world land mass and most of the fresh water supply, lots of oil, gas, and metals, and world's largest forests and some of the best fishing grounds, it would be a struggle not to be self sufficient.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:58 | 4504005 Prometheus the ...
Prometheus the Jester's picture

intelligence test

Who would you fight and die for?

A. Parroting puppet Potus.

B. polonium poisoning Putin.

C. I'm taking care of my own. Fuck those clowns.

Choose one.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:01 | 4504019 NOTaREALmerican
NOTaREALmerican's picture

Where are the slow-motion flags and predatory birds that people love to die for?

D  Slow motion flag   50%

E  Slow motion eagle  50%

F  Dumbasss patriot looking skyward - with tear in eye - at trillion dollar (non centrally-planned socialist scam) airplane.  100%.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:12 | 4504067 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

You failed the test.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 18:58 | 4504006 NOTaREALmerican
NOTaREALmerican's picture

I'm predicting this will all blow over in a few weeks.    People with funny eyebrows invading another country with funny eyebrows...   I mean, come-on...   Can anybody tell them apart?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:10 | 4504054 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Evidently they can. As long as people still have their jobs and food on the table their will likely be no outright war. But if things break down and people start getting a little hungry, they will eat their neighbor.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:00 | 4504013 madtechnician
madtechnician's picture

Can't they just PRINT their way out of it ?

Works every time....

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:01 | 4504017 mrblah
mrblah's picture

I was playing poker just. My hand; a 2 and a 4. Didn't even have a pair.

I bluffed by calling and raising until everyone capitulated.

I think the amusement and sense of victory I felt must be only a fraction of that Putin currently feels.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:02 | 4504025 NOTaREALmerican
NOTaREALmerican's picture

Doesn't somebody always jump up, turn over the table, and pull a gun in those movies?

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:08 | 4504047 mrblah
mrblah's picture

Thankfully I deployed my e-putin stare into the monitor, and they didn't shoot my internets.

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 20:28 | 4504363 11b40
11b40's picture

Really?  Putin was palying with a full house.  It was EU/US doing the bluffing, but Putin could see their hand.

http://www.thefunkymirrorco.co.uk/poker-hand-mirror.html

 

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:01 | 4504018 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

"It's only a matter of crime(a), Natasha..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cpm-mZv32Q

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:44 | 4504216 WmMcK
WmMcK's picture

Long Butterscotch Yogurt

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:02 | 4504022 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture
In 2011 the dacha gardens of Russia produced 40% of the nation's food.

 

 

While many in the world are completely dependent on large scale agriculture, the Russian people feed themselves. Their agricultural economy is small scale, predominantly organic and in the capable hands of the nation's people. Russians have something built into their DNA that creates the desire to grow their own food. It's a habit that has fed the Russian nation for centuries. It's not just a hobby but a massive contribution to Russia's agriculture.

 

 

http://naturalhomes.org/naturalliving/russian-dacha.htm

Mon, 03/03/2014 - 19:04 | 4504030 NOTaREALmerican
NOTaREALmerican's picture

Gotta hand it to them Godless Commies, they sure are more Free-Enterprise lovin' than our Big-AG patriots.

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