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Ukraine Denies Russia's Denial, Claims Ships Threatened With Seizure
Minutes after Russia denied it had issued an ultimatum to the Ukraine navy, Ukraine's acting president has just denied the denial.
- UKRAINE'S TURCHYNOV SAYS SHIPS THREATENED IF ARMS NOT LAID DOWN
- UKRAINE'S TURCHYNOV SAYS SHIPS THREATENED WITH SEIZURE
- UKRAINE'S TURCHYNOV SAYS SITUATION AROUND FLEET IS DANGEROUS
- UKRAINE'S TURCHYNOV SAYS RUSSIA INCREASING CRIMEA FORCES
- UKRAINE'S TURCHYNOV SAYS RUSSIAN BLACK SEA FLEET HAS BLOCKED UKRAINIAN NAVY VESSELS IN SEVASTOPOL BAYS
- TURCHYNOV SAYS SITUATION DIFFICULT IN EASTERN UKRAINE
- TURCHYNOV CALLS ON RUSSIA TO STOP AGGRESSION
What is curious here is that while it is clear why Russia would benefit from an escalation in hostilities in the Crimea, on which it did not "start" - i.e., allowing it a clear pretext to enter the "east" and "protect" its citizens - what is becoming clear is that it is Ukraine that is desperate to raise the level of hostilities. Why - if it is to force the hand of NATO, EU or the west in providing assistance, this is a wild gambit, which will backfire massively.
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I want youtube videos as proof!
Inverse biatch slap?
Indian givers!
Just waiting for the "Russia used poison gas on us" report.
what is becoming clear is that it is Ukraine that is desperate to raise the level of hostilities. Why - if it is to force the hand of NATO, EU or the west in providing assistance, this is a wild gambit, which will backfire massively.
Well, if memory serves, there is a participant in this mess who has made a statement about "killing Russians until the day he dies". So, cui bono, eh?
Sadly there is nothing NATO, the West, or anyone can do.
S-400 > NATO
Russia's SAM technology is a full 2 generations ahead of our missile technology and if we send drones they will send our drones back in the post.
Oh well.
Back to threatening Russia with (unspecified) consequences. Lest we look foolish.
Quick, somebody post an anti muslim YouTube
or, set up a false flag somewhere in China and tell the world its the "chinese 911" as drudge headline screams today...
.
I wonder what will adorn the Christmas card NATO will receive from Putin this year?
Any thoughts?
Obama's ovaries?
My first thought was 'the Kenyan's balls'. But. Well. Yeah.
Double post.
WTF? Putin is sitting there with a full house and Ukraine's got a pair of jacks at best, but they're pushing in all their chips???
Fucking MSM saying "Ukraine's Prime Minister..." how about at least saying "acting Prime Minister...." at least allude to the fact the whole thing is not quite kosher, but no, they no American's are so friggin dumb that all they need to do is keep pumping out the "story" to make it so.
well they have already farted in your direction :)
Who can blame those soldiers for not wanting to leave Crimea the Jewel of the Black Sea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDCt03sFdvg&index=10&list=LLNcmnJeNVmvsf...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dpv67iHMno&index=4&list=LLNcmnJeNVmvsf-...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk1FZyI7jps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZq31Omk_Lc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-hGydE4Xi8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1pBHEbzu0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oso7k_2u5Dw
the last link I leave you with is a geographic overview of a guy who took a modern day horse ride across the steppes of eurasia, a historical note of the path of the mongols
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NCDPQhSz_E
Dear Simon,
I'd like to cancel my planned property purchases in Chile. Found more affordable opportunities elsewhere, where I can also store my hard-earned and heavily-taxed USDs.
And, lest we forget, Gentlemen prefer Blondes.
Cheers / Na Zdrovye
This international soap opera is very compelling! It's like we're all right there listening in as the countries bicker... why do I feel like I'm being propagandized?
NSA is listening. They know the score. This is all BS.
Algos to react as if on cue to purposefully "headlined" denials, denials of denials, rejections of denials & firmly worded counter-claims that rejections of denial's patently false...
...at 8:45 am est, 9:30 am est, 3:30 pm est, 4:31 pm est, and henceforth.
I have an in law that works for a company that has thousands based in Belarus/Kiev...his thinking is in line with what ZH mentioned. Ukraine thinks they have the trump card with NATO who in exchange for holding up their end of the pact will be offered military base privilages in the sea of Crimean sea. I agree with ZH that this thinking is very wrong.
Putin will take & hold Ukraine, and /end.
There's absolutely nothing the U.S., EU or NATO will do about it except protest much.
It's not as if Putin & the senior Russian officials and analysts decided to undertake this measure lightly, nor that they failed to fully analyze & assess all possible contingencies & consequences that would result from doing so.
Ukraine is an essential piece of the future Russian Federation core for many strategic & economic reasons.
But the msm wants us to believe the Russians are making it up as they go along because it makes O the only one making it up as they go along.
Can Russia really afford to solely fund this huge military they have? NATO is a group of nations who contribute with men, material and finances. Russia is on its own. Largest country on the planet with 150 million people, GDP equivalent to Italy and per capita income that of Barbados.
The biggest threat coming out of post cold war Russia has always been that Ivan can't afford to pay his troops and that the troops might sell their equipment. IMF stepped in once before in Russia. Nothing has changed for Russia other than having found a big customer for NG in Europe and customer for oil and metals in China. Demand for NG as well as metals has gone down after a period of expansion.
China overbuilt and overconsumed metals and other base materials. China is in big trouble itself. Europe is taking less and less of Russia's NG. Germany's RWE is shutting down NG power plants all over.
Running the Russian economy and government is not cheap. Russia can barely afford to feed its people and the troops. Putin and the Kremlin are scared of a Maidan type revolt in Russia. That's what is really going on. Putin doesn't have 100% of Russian people's support. Not even close.
"Putin doesn't have 100% of Russian people's support."
That is one of the most inane statements I've ever read.
I guess after sending thousands into the Gulag because they dare voice their opinion about Putin, he will eventually have 100% support.
Hitler was very popular after he weeded out the opposition.
Neither your construction of straw men, nor your analingus of the NSA will save you from a FEMA camp.
Remind me please, FEMA camps - is in what country, in Russia or... ?
And another thing: What do you call a country, in which every citizen can be kept to prison for life, without a court order?
And the last question: How called the country with a regime of military-police dictatorship, under which it is possible to kill a missile from drone, any person, who not like for dictator and his entourage? It is Russia of Putin or... ?
"
"Putin doesn't have 100% of Russian people's support."
That is one of the most inane statements I've ever read."
--
Show me at least one Russian man of opposition to Putin and I will not call you an idiot.
Just one :) What about Gary Kasparov !
"Just one :) What about Gary Kasparov!"
Yes, it's a good joke! Garry Kasparov - Russian. I laughed to tears, bravo! LOL
"How many divisions has he?"
its not a question of support, he very well may get almost 100% support if there is an armed conflict....and i dont think they are scered of maidan type revolt, its totaly out of reality, there are no such organized forces in russia...
we are talking here about a conflict of several gangs over fruit of labour of ukrainian people
team zio tried a color revolution in Russia, as they tried in Iran and Syria. all failed. of course they won't stop there, and Putin knows it. So he decided to fight now, not wait for them to try again in Russia.
Yup, and both Syrian and Iranian people just LOVE their current regimes. Too bad the US "inspired" revolutions there failed. You are familiar with the terms "dictatorship" and "rule of force"?
We can all type here all day and bitch, moan and complain about the shortcomings of the US, but for fuck's sake it is still a much better place to live than for example Syria, Iran, Cuba or North Korea. In many aspects much better than living in Russia or Ukraine as well.
At least you can stand in Central Park and voice your opinion.
How about we let the people of Iran, North Korea, Syria, Libya and Ukraine handle their shit themselves? What's wrong with that?
That doesn't put money in MIC and bankster pockets so there's plenty wrong with it from their point of view!
"At least you can stand in Central Park and voice your opinion."
--
Voice your opinion - As a retired U.S. Marine Brandon Raab, who was arrested for posting Facebook messages critical of the U.S. government?
Last I looked most people on earth can stand in the middle of a patch of vegetation to rant and gesticulate without fear of a drone strike. OK, maybe not for the Inuit, not a lot of trees. plus it attracts polar bears. But most people are 'free' to rant at the homeless and the NSA/CIA/FBI/DHS/TSA/PIG/ATF big-bro stool-pigeons, informers and hover drones lurking in the shrubbery and airspace of Gorky-Central-Park.
Great selling-points, btw.
He's arrested people for protesting him several times. A principled leader who knows he is truly respected by his people doesn't have to resort to such bully tactics. This is 20th century play book and maybe Russians are falling for it until they've had enough of it. Where's the progressive voice in Russia? Mothballed or in chains?
Where's the progressive voice in USA? Mothballed or in chains?
In the U.S., the power has been usurped and is concentrated in the hands of a small group of individuals.
United States - it is a country in which all power has in the hand a one-party system. It is a latent form of dictatorship.
This one is the only ruling party in the U.S., called "The Party of big business."
This party has captured the right to print money, that contrary to the Constitution of the United States and for this reason, the regime of dictatorship, has unlimited power in the United States. It is the real military and police dictatorship (stratocracy).
Theatrical struggle between Republicans and Democrats, which we see every day on the TV, it's only screen to conceal from the people real power of dictatorship in the United States.
Partisan politics enables us to point fingers at each other instead of the puppeteers in control, then nothing changes and those puppeteers are left to their craft, unaffected and ready to perpetrate the next assault on both parties equally.
In the U.S., you only have two freedoms:
1. You have the right to be a slave and to praise the one-party regime of the military-police dictatorship of the United States.
2. You have the right to be a slave and to remain silent.
But in any case, you have to believe that Republicans, Democrats and changing the presidents - this is the real power in the United States, and not theatrical farce for enthusiastic crowd of idiots.
putin will take and hold crimea for now and continue to infiltrate the rest of ukraine through the politcal process as it did after the orange revolution, when the u.s. and eu thought they had finally prevailed.
Maybe NATO can sign Ukraine up. The paperwork can't take that long.
Is it a smoother process than signing up for the Unaffordable Care Act (which was literally drafted by Big Health Insurance & Big Pharma to further suck American Taxpayer Serfs - the ones left who actually pay any taxes - dry)?
I have a friend whose cousin's sister's gay lover makes $6,000 a month sitting at home in her pajamas . Just follow this link:
www.dirtywhoresareus.com
Doc I wrote "sea of crimean sea". Most people don't know that there is a sea located within another sea, both with the same name, over there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48jd-wkvVd4
The Talking Heads say:
There is water under the ocean:
http://youtu.be/o7pVjl4Rrtc
Glad I could lock that in for you :)
If you're gonna quote Talking Heads (sidenote....no The. They even had an album called 'The name of this band is Talking Heads') then at this point go for Life During Wartime. The Stop Making Sense version is especially good.
'Heard of a van that is loaded with weapons,
packed up and ready to go
Heard of some gravesites, out by the highway,
a place where nobody knows
The sound of gunfire, off in the distance,
I'm getting used to it now
Lived in a brownstore, lived in the ghetto,
I've lived all over this town
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco,
this ain't no fooling around
No time for dancing, or lovey dovey,
I ain't got time for that now'
Nothing will change. Russia will keep the base in Crimea and Ukraine will keep Crimea. Back to your fleecing sheep, be them EU sheep, US sheep or Russian sheep. Russians to find new overlord.
Things have already changed.
I just BTFB (Buy the fucking Blip) since we really don't get any dips. Now i will just wait for the sanctions announcement and CHA CHING. It's like ringing the cash register
Its all fun and games when the US is picking on small kids (countries), but when a bully of equal size shows up it's all hot air
“Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business." - Michael Ledeen (the neocon)
I guess the above lines are pretty old 'cos the interval of the "Empire Wrath" is geting shorter nowadays... just counting the years from Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, Libya, Syria, Ukraine,...
Was he "perfectly clear"?
What about freedom fries? Can we still get freedom fries?
Obamatron, ya forgot one thing...
Well, looky here. Now what do you think that crazy Left Hand is up to? (Right Fist penetrates bunghole up to elbow) Ah, yes.
two men enter, one man...... ok, this is an Inappropriate reply to your statement .
let the prapaganda battle Begin
The term "crapaganda" has been been born.
Pravdaganda
I like it. It's like "shambolic" or "omnishambles."
Or "traveshamockery."
Of course it couldn't possibly be due to warmongering Obummer's CIA influence, could it?
Its due to global warming.
This is just CRAZY, I tell ya. Everybody knows that, when going to war, it is best to publicly announce everything you are doing, ,and why, ahead of taking action.
I just can't figure out what the Ukranians are thinking with this statement contradicting the Russians public announcements denying such a move.
wel find out in about 8-1/2 hours
Maybe sooner. One reason to cancel the deadline...
Relax people, Joltin' Joe Foreign Diplomacy Biden has got this covered.
We will all find out eventually that the Russians were pissed off about a crude amateur film spoofing Vald Putin as a gay muslim and this was naturally their spontaneous response.....
Hearing that Uncle Joe is preparing a tactical gaff that should end all of this nonsense by cocktail hour.
WTF
Any post that mentions Joe Ginbloom Biden and happy hour in the same paragraph is always an automatic green
.
TURCHYNOV FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING NAZI
i hope you'll be hanging by your neck very soon
losing your ground bitch??
nuland thinks you are another usless idiot like klicko??
there's a rope for every nazi bitch
just wait
He’s a Baptist.. maybe he should call Jimmy Carter to fix things up like he did in North Korea..
or to select a suitable rope.
Oleksandr Turchynov: The Baptist Currently Running Ukraine
Hate to break it to some people, but if you want to be "purist" in your worldviews and religious views, then you're automatically screwed if you buy into the New Testament... because it's based in the Old Testament.
And the minute you buy into the Old Testament, your balls are in someone else's hands, no matter how pretty you 'sing' or ululate.
Moral: If you want to be "purist", you gotta come up with your own Worldview/Religion. Which might explain why so many in the 3rd Reich opted out of Catholicism and opted for Nordic gods, themes, imagery, etc.
This also explains why it made the killing of millions of Catholics much easier for them. Records* indicate that as many or more Catholics were killed than Jews, but that's a dirty big secret the Church doesn't want you to know and Jewish lobbies don't want you to speak of.
* Based on records released by Russia in the 1990s, showing the death records from Auschwitz that they had confiscated during its liberation by Russian forces in 1945. I simply did a copy/paste of the text into Excel, converted text to columns, did some Sorting and -- presto! -- out come the stats. Can sort by Name, Residency, Religion, etc. As an atheist, I'm neither pro or anti either religion, but simply willing to call out Bullshit and Hypocrisy wherever I see it.
p.s. The other thing to bear in mind by you 'Christians' (whether devout or cafeteria types), is that the Jewish God (Elohim) was a "warrior god" who tolerated no others. Very Klingon-like. When you get to the New Testament, you get what resembles a Hippie Son Jesus, who was into "Love", "Who cares if you're dirt poor or get raped", etc.
Strong God (who tells the Jews to shape up and take over) vs. Weak God (who promises his 'Flock' that he'll take care of them, as long as they're "nice" and follow him). <-- Just observing as an atheist -- /Who's had to deal with many a 'god' in the Galaxy. /sarc
Total numbers?
Percentages of Population?
Excel file published anywhere?
There have been many Christians that practiced Old Testament morality.
You've been indoctrinated. The dangerous thing though is, you don't think you have!
Someone needs therapy.
Who is this guy anyway? It looks to me that there are three or four people in Ukraine, who claim to be some sort of government, menawhile their authority ends at their office door. Why do we keep bothering with what they say? They certainly can't do anything.
UKRAINE'S TURCHYNOV SUPER SERIAL
Why doesn't Ukraine just announce that Russia has seized the entire nation and they have lost, see if Russia will deny it.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/ukraine-crisis-russia-contr...
UPDATE: on the monetary side, Russia’s central bank has confirmed that it is selling dollars to prop up the rouble and that its main fight after markets stabilise will be against inflation:
Updated at 5.16pm GMT
Lolz.. Gold & Bitcoin.. Bitchez
Fuck you, Tyler(s).
When did ZH became a branch of Russian state media?
Go ahead and ban me already --- I am tired of this blatant one-sided bullshit. If I wanted to be told what to think, I would watch FOX News.
Putin is the good guy, right? Tylers? Say it is so!
If you're not Ukrainian.....
I think we're screwed both ways...
.
Im just trying to follow 'their' clues to figure out what comes next, rather than, who's our friend/foe in all of this fuckin horseshit.
Akak fwiw see my post above. Tyler is not far off on this one.
Fonz, my comments on the Ukrainian situation, here in this thread and elsewhere, have NOTHING to do with being pro-EU or pro-NATO, which I will again say most emphatically that I am NOT. WHY are so many here apparently and suddenly falling for the EXACT same kind of false dichotomy thinking that they rightly rail against in US Republican vs. Democratic politics? Most here seem (or seemed) to recognize the trap and futility of that kind of thinking when it comes to domestic politics, yet here most of you are falling into EXACTLY the same mentality in regards to Ukraine.
Hatred for the EU and/or NATO does NOT automatically imply support for an authoritarian thug like Putin, does it?
I hear you Akak. all I meant was that the assertion that Ukraine may in fact be trying to escalate this to make NATO make good on their agreement, which I agree with ZH, TIS etc....NATO will not make good on.
I'm not implying anything past that. Or picking sides or anything past that.
Don.t let the disdain for Zero and .gov hypocrisy be mistaken for love of comrade Pooty poot. The majority of people here just sick of the western propaganda and delight in it's exposure, regardless of who shines the light on it. But make no mistake, Putin is just as much the statist scum as Zero and deserves the same respect,... or lack thereof.
I agree with you completely in that regard, Dr. Engali, but just watch how many down-arrows your comment will receive for you stating that opinion.
Something radically strange, and disturbing, has happened to ZH lately.
So far he's got 12 ups and zero downs. Perhaps he's right, and there is no innate Putin love here as you believe.
Then why am I seeing so much implicitly pro-Putin sentiment, and often overt pro-Putin support, over and over here on ZH, both in comments and in the downarrowing of those comments that criticize Putin in any way?
I will say it again: something has radically changed here on ZH recently. And not for the better.
Your comments are coing off as pro NATO/US to some. Reading them reminds me of CNN or FOX propaganda.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the above poster that Putin can be a tyrant. I just agree with the Russians on this particular issue.
Then those who interpret my explicitly anti-EU, anti-NATO, anti-statist-in-general comments in that manner need to learn how to read and/or think.
Running into the arms of one gang of statist thugs as a supposed refuge from another band of statist thugs is futile and self-defeating. Most ZH posters used to recognize this fact until very recently. But apparently most ZH posters are now as easy to whip up into falling for false dichotomies and the "good cop/bad cop" trap as any average collection of sheep.
My concern goes as far as the ethnic Russians are concerned, since these are the people in most danger. I agree it is a choice of one gang of thugs over another for them; but, in this case the Russian gang are less likely to commit atrocities against them than the Western Ukrainian Bandera gang. While fully aware they will be robbed by either side I just don't see the possiblity of Russian on Russian violence to be as probable as West Ukrainian on Russian violence, via the Kiev regime.
"Then why am I seeing so much implicitly pro-Putin sentiment, and often overt pro-Putin support, over and over here on ZH..."
Perhaps you are interpreting them as pro Putin when they are in fact indicative of people happy to finally see someone - anyone stand up to the US bullshit.
Hell I'd love to see Al Qaeda nuke DC. Does that mean I want to be a Muslim and live under Sharia law? No - it's just that I'd love to see my enemies wiped out, and I don;t give a shit who does it.
It's not hard to understand.
nuking them would be too generous. worst possible punishment would be to render them completely irrelevant as everybody would just mind their own business.
aka:
Re: pro-putin comments
Maybe it's because people don't like the idea of a bunch of neo-nazis overthrowing a legitimatey elected government so that that the western oligrarchs can rape the country while the nazis terrorize it.
-30-
ZH Anti-Semites and Anti-Nazis at the same time?
akak:
I just looked at your prediction on engali's arrows - I see 22 ups - and 0 downs.
Perhaps your view of the rest of the world is equally skewed?
-30-
how the fuck have we come to this that we welcome escalation of war to expose the blatant propaganda and hypocrisy of western elites?
problem is, war only consolidates hypocrisy. if even during peace-time we can't shine enough light on this bullshit to wake the populace, how can we do it when we have hot war. if this escalates(if russia attacks first), nobody will remember who funded the coup and every journalist and sheep in west will mobilize for the cause. everybody else will be labeled traitor and in the best case scenario gets forgotten in between nonstop slow-motion flag waving, eagles and other shit you americans are good at
we are not so good with the eagles anymore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhITpTtG888
LOL
Nicely said, Layman.
But the pro-Putin crowd here will shortly be downvoting you en masse.
I wonder how sentiment here suddenly turned on a dime and became the antithesis of all that ZH used to represent?
akak, i feel your pain.
to tell you the truth. i feel encourage by the red arrows. i have my principles i stand true to and i don't need some herd for an eco-chamber. when the whole situation cools down, as i hope it does, maybe people will also lay off their euphoria.
aka:
Layman has no down arrows.
Stay out of the forecasting business - your track record shows you batting .000.
-30-
until the coup in ukraine, i was comforting the notion that ZH is the place where freedom loving and critically thinking people come to read bias-free news and foster anti-government sentiment.... boy, was i wrong?! it seems it's only anti-US government, EU et al site.
at least it's much easier to navigate the comments last few days. just head for the red arrows.
I have become convinced that 40% of this place would fall over themselves to vote for the second coming of Hitler as long as she is a good looking chick.
or maybe for The Man? topless on bearback?
Well, tits, or no?
yes tits, old titties. maverick titties.
That's true for most of the US, Fonz. Who are some of the women in national politics in the US - Yellen, Ginsberg, Hillary, the two Janets both of whom had a five o'clock shadow, Sotomayor, Michelle O'bambam...etc. If a beautiful woman showed up on the American political landscape wearing a Nazi flight jacket and thigh high stockings there would be no stopping her.
apparently we had our shot and missed it.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-01/and-person-who-foresaw-it-all
Its because bikini pics were not widely circulated...
ah, RS, visions of Sarah Palin in jackboots and black knickers with a peaked cap ... and all that kerfuffle about her wardrobe would have gone away. :D
You are mistaken. Half of Ukrainians against the new government. Even in Kiev against more than half. But they are afraid to say it out loud.
Power in Kiev has been invaded by fascists. So many people against them. They see Putin and the Russian army as their saviors.
I'm pretty sure there are no "good guys" in this mess. But if it Makes you feel ant better.... GO TEAM U.S.S.A ...or GO TEAM U.S.S.R... which ever side YOU are on.
why would Ukraine be desperate to raise the hostility level?
way to take one mans opinion and make it a fact of your own.
I think they are stupid enough to think that if they raise the hostility level, NATO will come to their rescue through direct military action in the area. They think they can get NATO to start a war with Russia. They are that stupid.
ALL THE THUGS in control of Kiev now must be hung before the public for their stupidities and treacherous acts that bring disaster to Ukraine.
Just make sure they do not miss their names in the accomplice list, incl. the ex-boxer holding the foreign PR and those DUAL-CITIZENSHIP holders esp. the funders of the chaos.
Hanged, or hung?
There's a difference.
antemortem or postmortem?
I could reasonably argue this guy ... was hung...
It's turned into a red team blue team debate with the Ukrainian people as spectators and soon to be victims.
That is exactly the case, with Tyler(s) and most of the posters here taking the side of Czar Vladimir as "the lesser of two evils".
ZH, you have met the enemy, and it is you.
I don't think most are on Vladimir's side. I believe most of us see this as the snake eating its own tail. Certain instances like this issue is how we may get our much needed reset in the world. Unfortunatly a reset will always hurt innocent people but its a necessary evil for the future of humanity. Humanity is lost and needs to find a way back to the light.
exactly. while most of us recognise the fact that Putin is far from perfect, it is IMF and NATO starting to take the land where russian people live. So it is reasonable to observe who is making a land grab here, akak boy.
I do wish God intervenes and saves the beautifull garden that Earth is.
Let me get this straight..Russia protecting its people from nazis that threaten them is the bad guy to you?
So the neocon funded nazis in Kiev are the good guys?
John McCain, is that you?
The "neocons" (a word that is losing all meaning at this point -- is George Soros a neocon?) did NOT fund the small collection of so-called "neo nazis". Quit making shit up and using slogans. The West funneled support to the moderate pro-EU opposition in the desire to bring Ukraine into the EU experiment. The Ukrainian people, with a history of slaughter at the hands of Stalin, Bolsheviks and Russians, took matter into their own hands, foiling the Western plot but also forcing Putin's hand.
It's a complicated situation. The Ukrainian people (no, not the Russians that Stalin and other Soviet leaders moved in) want to be rid of Russian domination. They turn toward Europe as a potential savior, but that's more out of desperation.
The sloganeering here is getting very tired. The absolute lack of knowledge of the Ukraine is appalling. Just because those most of dislike running the Western world are involved doesn't justify the Ukrainian people once again being stomped on by Russians. It's a mess for sure.
Not every Western Ukrainian is a nazi. However the violent faction responsible for this mess are the Bandera picture waiving nazi sympathizers.
By neocons I'm refering to Nuland McCain and Co. who have admitted to spending upwards of tapayer 5billion USD to instigate this coup.
McCain hasn't spent a dime nor authorized a dime to be spent. He's a goddam Senator from Arizona. Do you know a thing? You have some obsession with McCain, whatever. Doesn't change reality.
Nuland works for the State Department, is an employee of OBAMA, not McCain, was appointed by his regime. Again, repeat, McCain has NOTHING to do with any funding. NOTHING, except being a cheerleader, like many politicians.
As far as I know, funding was also sent by other rich leftists/statists organizations and people like Soros, who have NOTHING to do with John McCain. Repeat, NOTHING.
Like any major protest movement, there are many factions. Sometimes it's only the radicals that push the envelope and force changes, which is why revolutions often end up not acheiving the original goals. Try some history -- the Soviet Union was founded on radical communists who were willing to die and overthrow not only the Czar but the legitimately elected Russian parliament that was attempting non-violent change out of the feudal system. Or the Sandinistas in Nicaragua -- violent extremists who shoved all the moderate anti-Somoza elements under the bus and into prison. Then came the US supported "Contras", which actually consisted of various factions from Somoza loyalists to middle class democracy types to disgruntled ex-Sandinistas like Eden Pastora.
Hopefully the Ukrainians can move things back into dialog and find the independence they desire from both the EU and Vlad the Conquerer.
December 13 2013
Straight from the horses mouth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37599.htm
It doesn't matter what McCain wants, he's not running a thing. Obama is in charge. Period. End of story.
Whenever someone tries to emphasize his point by using a "period" and/or "end of story" statement in a conversation, you just know he run out of logical arguments...
Or simply doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about...
True dat... his statement proves it..."Obama is in charge". The entire world knows 0zer0 isn't in charge of anything.
tham:
Speaking of a lack of knowledge of the history of the Ukranie . . .
And so the Slavs were treated so much better by the "liberating" German Nazis? Who wrote your history book?
Get a grip on reality - Russia, with its fond memories of the Nazis, is not about to let a bunch of neo-nazi thugs take over a border country. What did anyone expect to happen when the legitimately elected government was overthrown in an armed coup with a group that ripped up its written agreement with the governemtn within 48 hours of signing that agreement?
You and the other rationalizers for the Kiev thugs can go to Hell.
-30-
Correct, so here's the perfect oportunity to change that, the floor is yours.
You are a fucking idiot, as apparently are the majority of ZH posters.
Firstly, I do not automatically believe that those protesting the recently deposed president of Ukraine were or are all "Nazis". And even if some of them are the "fascists" that you claim they are, many if not most of them were clearly not.
Secondly, justifiably opposing one evil government does not logically imply that one should automatically (or ever) support another. You again are falling into the false dichotomy of the "red team/blue team" argument.
Juts because you have anti-russian sentiment from cold war propaganda should not cloud your judgement today. I'm sure most posters here have bad memmories of the former USSR either directly or indirecty.
What is happening in the Ukraine has Russia on the right side of history. They can and SHOULD defend their people from the self imposed governent in Ukraine that threatens them. One of the first thing that government did was make Ukrainian the only langauage allowed in the nation. Think about that for a minute. The country is 1/3 Russian speakers..at least. Not to mention the threats of 'killing russians' coming from the Bandera nazi gangs that started this mess.
You can thank neocon Nuland and McCain who have wasted 5billion USD to pay for those Bandera militants. 5billion of your tapayer dollars so they can live out their wet dream of picking a fight with the Russians (but in their minds they are still fighitng the USSR I think; see first sentence)
I do not have any residual cold war anti-Russian sentiment. I am merely calling out the hypocrisy of all those here who SUPPORT the authoritarianism and imperialism of Putin merely because his actions are also anti-EU and/or anti-US (government).
It's the same old tired "red team/blue team" bullshit all over again, only this time on the world stage instead of strictly inside the US.
Sometimes, the enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend.
and the fucking delusional and misguided belief that Putin actually gives a shit about the Russian people is beyond amazing.
Putin doesn't give a shit about the Russian people. He does give a shit about restoring Russia to what he believes is its rightful place as a major world power; with him and his cronies in control.
The "Putin love" some here love to bitch about isn't 'love' - its respect for a man who is standing up for his nation and his culture rather than spitting on it. You can respect your enemy. In fact, I have far more respect for Putin than I do Obama. That doesn't mean I love Putin, or want to move to Russia.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
I don't respect authoritarians of ANY nationality, period.
The same "standing up for his nation" propaganda was used in support of Hitler, too.
Godwin's Law
+1
You simply don't get it - do you?
You are confusing respect for an opponent for approval of the opponent and his methods.
If you approved of the opponent - he wouldn't be your opponent, he would be an ally.
In any event, feel free to be pissed off at ZH as much as you wish. The simple fact is that one man has secured his objectives, without bloodshed. He didn't start it, but he was smart enough to take advantage of the situation we caused in order to further his interest; and so far, the majority of the people in the affected area approve of it.
@fonz I said Russians defending their own people, not Putin. You do know they (Russian Gov) VOTED to have the authority to use military intervention?
I am speaking, similar to Akak, about the shift that has taken place on ZH in general. Was not trying to pin you down on anything. My apologies if it came off that way.
and I find this sentence by meattrapper bizarre "He does give a shit about restoring Russia to what he believes is its rightful place as a major world power; with him and his cronies in control."
I don't know that I disagree with him, but I don't think that does anything for the Russian people and I don't respect him for it.
The composition of the "protesters" is actually irrelevant.
If for example, the Tea Party/OWS was protesting on the National Mall, and after a few weeks and a few deaths, the House of Representatives voted to Impeach Obozo and install Boner as Grand Poobah, completely ignoring the Senate and Supreme Court and the whole trial thingy... Then the House passes a law that says no State have issue use any language other than English, under penalty of law. As Obozo fled into Frau Merkel's loving NATO arms, people in CA, TX, AZ, NM and FL reasonably decide that perhaps the EUSSR (irrespective of the EUSSR's strategic hospitality to Obozo), or Succession is a more better/less bad alternative than following the Boner Führer down the road to hell as he drives off to jump into bed with Vlad...
You're looking for more good where only less bad is on offer- or do you have an actionable counter offer?
How many Americans wish for Spanish to be an official language?
If Spanish was outlawed, and then Mexican Government invaded the US,
what would Non-Spanish Americans do?