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The Russian Perspective: "There Will Be War In Ukraine"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

With Ukrainians living in the Crimea region voting to join Russia, the West calling for sanctions (well some of the West), boots still on the ground, and markets apparently of the belief that all is well in the world once again, we thought the Russian perspective on the next steps was useful...

Via Sergei Markov of The Moscow Times,

The current crisis is not about Crimea. It is about the rights of Russian-speakers throughout Ukraine whom the Kremlin wants to protect from violence and discrimination. Russia does not want a military intervention in Crimea and does not want to take Crimea from Ukraine.

There is a political solution to this crisis.

First, create a coalition government in Kiev composed of all parties, including those from the east and south of the country. The current government is dominated by anti-Russian extremists from western Ukraine.

 

Second, Ukraine needs to draft a democratic constitution that has guarantees for Ukraine's Russian-speaking population that would grant official status to the Russian language and establish the principle of federalism.

 

Third, presidential and parliamentary elections must be held soon. Independent election observers must play an active role in ensuring that the elections are free and fair. There is a real danger that they will be manipulated by the neo-Nazi militants who de facto seized power in a coup.

If these democratic and peaceful solutions to the crisis in Ukraine are rejected by the opposition forces that have seized power in Kiev, I am afraid that Russia will have no other choice but to revert to military means. If the junta leaders want to avoid war, they need to adopt Moscow's peaceful and democratic proposals and adhere to them.

Those currently in power in Kiev are carrying out a political strategy that is not so much pro-European as it is anti-Russian, as evidenced by the surprisingly heavy-handed tactics the U.S. and European Union  have employed in Ukraine. In the end, a minority executed a violent coup that removed the democratically elected and legitimate president of Ukraine.

The Kremlin believes that the current Ukrainian leadership will manipulate the elections planned for May 25 to install a single leader or coalition government functioning much as former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili did in Tbilisi. A "Ukrainian Saakashvili" will unleash an even more repressive campaign of intimidation against Russian-speakers, one that over several years would stoke anti-Russia hysteria among the general population.

After that, Kiev may evict Russia's Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol and purge Crimea of any Russian influence. Ukraine could easily become a radicalized, anti-Russian state, at which point Kiev will fabricate a pretext to justify taking subversive action against Moscow. This looks especially likely considering that ruling coalition members from the neo-fascist Svoboda and Right Sector parties have already made territorial claims against Russia. They could easily send their army of activists to Russia to join local separatists and foment rebellion in the North Caucasus and other unstable regions in Russia. In addition, Russia's opposition movement will surely want to use the successful experience and technology of the Euromaidan protests and, with the help and financial support of the West, try to carry out their own revolution in Moscow. The goal: to remove President Vladimir Putin from power and install a puppet leadership that will sell Russia's strategic interests out to the West in the same way former President Boris Yeltsin did in the 1990s.

The official census puts the Russian minority in Ukraine at 16 percent of the total population, although that number was falsified. The actual number is closer to 25 percent. Surveys indicate that 45 percent of the country's population speak Russian at home, 45 percent speak Ukrainian and 10 percent speak both languages. In the most recent Gallup survey, when asked in which language they would like to be polled, 83 percent of respondents chose Russian. Taking into account the rural population in western and central Ukraine, about 75 percent of the people, probably speak Russian. Of that 75 percent, only about 10 percent are those in Kiev and a few other major cities who supported the protests. This means that only 35 percent of the population are attempting to impose its will on the remaining 65 percent, using a violent coup to achieve their goals.

Putin made the right decision: He did not to wait for that attack and took preventative measures. Many in the West say the Kremlin's reactions were paranoiac, but Germany's Jews also thought the same of leaving the country in 1934. Most of them chose to believe they were safe and remained in Germany even after Hitler came to power. The infamous Kristallnacht took place five years later, one of the first early chapters in the "Final Solution." Similarly, just four years remain until Russia's presidential election in 2018, and there is a strong risk that subversive forces within and outside Russia will try to overthrow Putin, in part using their new foothold in Ukraine.

Will there be war in Ukraine? I am afraid so. After all, the extremists who seized power in Kiev want to see a bloodbath. Only fear for their own lives might stop them from inciting such a conflict. Russia is prepared to move its forces into southern and eastern Ukraine if repressive measures are used against the Russian-speaking population or if a military intervention occurs. Russia will not annex Crimea. It has enough territory already. At the same time, however, it will also not stand by passively while Russophobic and neo-Nazi gangs hold the people of Crimea, Kharkiv and Donetsk at their mercy.

 

Or out another way:

If the extremists who seized power in Kiev do not accept Russia's democratic proposals, Russia will likely be forced to revert to military means to solve the crisis in Ukraine.

 

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Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:34 | 4518721 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

Well then.  There you have it.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:39 | 4518749 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

The ONLY thing Obama and Kerry can do that would put any pressure on Russia is to approve Keystone XL.

But they won't.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:46 | 4518779 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

Does this mean the terrorist threat doesn't carry establishment water anymore?  New Cold War?

Or is this another threat to be added to the already-long list?  War on poverty, war on drugs, war on terror, war on anyone who doesn't love Western central banking?

Is the hunt for collaborators about to expand?

Obama is more Stalinist than Putin.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:50 | 4518800 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

War in or for the Ukraine?  No, I doubt it.  NO ONE in the West would help.

Ukraine is on its own.  And they should be careful how they treat their Russian speakers.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:53 | 4518823 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Tea Time with Vlad.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:55 | 4518832 negative rates
negative rates's picture

The good stuff always happens on the weekend, when the traders are all partying hard.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:04 | 4518868 Thought Processor
Thought Processor's picture

 

 

Looks like I picked a bad weekend to stop snorting wood glue.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:06 | 4518890 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ZG6tRGMYk

All summer they drove us back through the Ukraine
Smolensk and Viasma soon fell
By Autumn we stood with our backs to the town of Orel
Closer and closer to Moscow they come
Riding the wind like a bell
General Guderian stands at the crest of the hill

Winter brought with it the rains, oceans of mud filled the roads
Gluing the tracks of their tanks to the ground, while the skies filled with snow

And all that I ever
Was able to see
The fire in the air, glowing red
Silhouetting the snow on the breeze

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:53 | 4519060 prmths2
prmths2's picture

I thought I recognized Al Stewart. My favorites on that album were Post World War II Blues and Last Day of June, 1934. Thanks for sparking the memory.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:13 | 4519119 nowhereman
nowhereman's picture

Wasn't that Chris Deburg

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:20 | 4519139 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

 

 

"In the end, a minority executed a violent coup that removed the democratically elected and legitimate president..."

 

Does 1963 ring a bell?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:34 | 4519166 Muppet Pimp
Muppet Pimp's picture

I call bullshit.  There is a red line or maybe call it a pink patch where if Vlad pushes his luck, there will be no more unemployment problems in the EU.

Furthermore, the optics of the German side meetings with Russia will look a whole lot different if the march continues on.  A whole lot different.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:38 | 4519204 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

How's uranium doing?

If the Ukraine outcome doesn't satisfy Russia, the least they will do is abandon the arms treaties.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:47 | 4519859 Mister Kitty
Mister Kitty's picture

The Ukraine isn't America's problem.  Let the Euro-trash deal with their own backyard.  Bitches.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:55 | 4519878 Independent
Independent's picture

How gullible are these Ukrainian dupes that went to the square..

"In Kyiv late Thursday, a sombre crowd on Independence Square alternately fretted and fumed at both the speed and manner in which the Crimean question was being forced upon them.
Beset by financial crisis and braced for a wave of bad economic news as their new government readies to acquiesce to unpopular reforms as a condition of international financial rescue, many Ukrainians described the situation in Crimea as one crisis too many.
“I feel sick. I could cry. I joined the Maidan to stand against corruption, not to push against Russians or push Crimea away,” said Katrina Yehorenko, one among thousands who strode the charred square Thursday, absorbing and sharing the day’s news.

“We love Crimea. Our problems, their problems. They are the same. We are the same.”

Yeah so they stood in the square for a right wing neo nazi illegitimate government because she couldnt wait three months for elections to vote out the corruption.  What kind of people does she think she will get with Tymoshenko who was a corrupt pro EU monster now in charge again with her party goons.  Now she lost Crimea ahhhh.  Listen Katrina Yehorenko go CRY ME A RIVER OF TEARS you impressionabe young F**K with your little Maidan T shirt and your stupid little flags painted on your cheeks and tits.  You got screwed big time already by the EU and losing Crimea which was never yours to begin with is JUST THE START, hope you can give good blow jobs so you can earn some money to pay your huge gas bills and increased food bills.  I hear they like Ukraine girls in Brussels and Tel Aviv, lots of pricks needs oral massages.  I think your name Yehorenko is ironic 'You'whore' what did you get yourself 'into'

Yushenko was an elected leader that got them the best deal, they had 30% savings on gas, open market with Russia and place to sell their goods the Euros dont want, they could of kept their farmland and Crimea and made money off the lease of the base (90 million dollars a year).  Now an illegal coup lost them Crimea, their gas bills double, food prices will go through the roof, corruption will be more rampant because now the Euros want a cut of Ukraine and they will take flesh literally and figuratively.  Wait till IMF and Goldman Sachs come in an manipulate markets on every commodity, doubling prices through warehousing products and metals and so on and so on. Just like they have done in Serbia and Romania. Not only that but with multinational oil companies fracking your heartland expect your water quality to go to carcinogenic status.  Thank the lord Crimea got away from your fate. A beautiful land, the Pearl of the Black Sea, may she be as she always was safe from filthy EU Hands, Praise the Lord, Amen.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDCt03sFdvg

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 00:26 | 4520112 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Although it might be a rough ride for a lot of innocents and dupes in Kiev (and worse for the bad guys), Ukraine could well be spared from becoming a Troika whore like Greece.

The old KGB guy might rise above himself by cleansing, then releasing Ukraine.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 07:25 | 4520475 Hephaestus
Hephaestus's picture

 

 

If he did that it would absolutley make him BadAss in my book. Can you imagine the heart attack Goldaman & JP Morgan would have if Russia and China started speading freedom (from bankers) for real? OMG!?!

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 19:25 | 4523312 Hephaestus
Hephaestus's picture

Wow nobody wants Ukraine to elect its own govt without the usual crew screwing with it.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 01:36 | 4520208 Independent
Independent's picture

Also why was the dumb broad not storming the parliment when the neo nazis passed laws outlawing Russian as a spoken language if she is the same as the Russians, "They are the same, we are the same." LOL you dumbs**t.  Why didnt you stay with Mother Russia if you we are the same and we have the same problems of the EU and USA wanting to rip us off of natural resources, box us in, and split us up.  You made your bed now lie in it, we are RUS be we gave you a chance and you are grown up and made your decision even though we warned you and we went out of our way to give you a phenomenal deal.  Now you are Slaves Again to the EU like you were to the Crimean Tatars after they invaded Crimea, read about the Fates of the Captives in this wiki link about half way down the article

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean-Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands

Some dipsh*ts never learn.

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 07:34 | 4520478 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

 

 

Free Vera Brezhneva!!!!

 

From Ukraine with love.....via Nepal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTYRtmK-EdU&feature=related

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 10:48 | 4521021 Independent
Independent's picture

Nice...Kind of like a Slavic Shakeera

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:56 | 4519886 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Ukraine is nobody's business, but Crimea is a strategically located locale where Russia showcases her power.

Ukraine happens to have 2 super powers fight in their backyard. But that's how it has always been.

Big players use pawns and divy up the winnings to display power.

 

Losers are the ones who depend on the superpowers for protection.

 

USA and USSR will now have an excuse to sell Ukraineans some outdated weapons to fund their own military industrial complex.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:44 | 4520159 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

"USA and USSR will now have an excuse to sell Ukraineans some outdated weapons to fund their own military industrial complex."

 

AldousHuxley, I feel compelled to correct your lines, there is NO more USSR, no more the bankster propped Bolshevik rulers ... it's soooo Cold War...

I believe you did instead mean its successor, the USSA vis-à-vis the Russia Federation!


And please do not ignore the CULTURAL and LANGUAGE affinities in the geopolitics equation; the NWO globalists may very hardly push us into believing and adopting ONE unified global culture and taste, but let me tell you the real life is unlike that at all--we, the human being, have our own cultural and taste diversities!!

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 02:08 | 4520107 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

"The Ukraine isn't America's problem.  Let the Euro-trash deal with their own backyard.  Bitches."

 

And you do hope that the ZOG's Masters through CFR and Soros Fund will write OFF their at least $5 BILLION "investment" there?

Many heads will down if so... among other Nuland's head too for the silly "Fuck the EU" curse...

 

LOL

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 00:44 | 4520139 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Chemists discover new element! "Ukranium"....says "stay out but never leave."

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 06:37 | 4520442 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Ukranium, the atoms keep splitting then getting back together again, over and over...

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 21:38 | 4519671 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

El DeBarge?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:01 | 4519274 silvermail
silvermail's picture

When the Germans were reunited, the whole of Europe applauded.
But when Russians want reunited, Europe and US to spit bile.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:27 | 4519386 KnightTakesKing
KnightTakesKing's picture

The spice nat gas must flow!

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:11 | 4519926 Normalcy Bias
Normalcy Bias's picture

Be very careful with that Elmer's, Bud. It seems harmless at first, but before you know it, you'll be hearing faces melt. Strong stuff...

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 04:00 | 4520331 Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

looks like i picked the right weekend to START sniffing glue.

 

fixed it for ya :)

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 05:34 | 4520405 August
August's picture

Why stop?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:19 | 4518948 aVileRat
aVileRat's picture

So, when are we going to see the 'spring time for Putin' Broadway production ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmYIo7bcUw

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 00:44 | 4520134 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

@ Rat

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmYIo7bcUw" - "Springtime for Hitler"

 

Ironically the today's Hitler is in Tel Aviv... or some nutheads may insist that he's in Jerusalem instead!

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 21:31 | 4519645 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture

 

 

Vlad will drink Vokda - Obama will drink Kool Aid

Ukraine crisis: Does Russia have a case?

snip

 

Under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the US, Russia, Ukraine and the UK agreed not to threaten or use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine. They also pledged never to use economic coercion to subordinate Ukraine to their own interest.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:28 | 4518841 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

Russia has military bases in Ukraine.  They aren't invading, they are just protecting their assets.  If the Okinawa prefecture had the same turmoil that is happening in the Cremia, the US MIC would put up a front for sure.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:29 | 4519817 Tortfeasor
Tortfeasor's picture

Is that why the Russians have the Ukrainian bases surrounded?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 08:34 | 4520533 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Pre-emptive detention.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:36 | 4518999 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

We won't do anything. Until we see tanks rolling over people.

The optics will drive this.

They are white people. That will make a difference.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:27 | 4519800 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

War in or for the Ukraine?  No, I doubt it.  NO ONE in the West would help. Ukraine is on its own.

 

DoChenRollongBearing...Unfortunately I think that you may be mistaken.

 

Something happened today that makes me think that this will turn out as a USA-Russian War.

 

A RUSSIAN Anti Submarine Warfare Ship was sunk in a Harbor Channel. Now the West Friendly Ukranians claim that the Russians scuttled their own ship to bottle up the "Ukranian Naval Fleet".

 

What if that report is not entirely accurate?

 

Let's play a game, "Connect the Dots". Let's see what kind of picture emerges.

 

What do we know?

 

The United States CIA goes into the Ukraine with the INTENT on toppling the Government.

The United States Government covers up the fact that the Sniper Attacks were done by "friendlies" and not the Ukranian Government.

(Just who were the snipers??? Who are amongst the most elite sinpers in the World?)

 

Now we get an Russian Anti Submarine Warship (ASW) sunk in the middle of the Channel.

 

(That is what the Japanese were doing at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, while they were attempting to sink the US Battleship Nevada which had built up a head of steam and was underway... If the Japanese Imperial Navy Air Forces had sunk her in the Deep Water Channel then it would have bottled up Pearl Harbor rendering it unusable.)

 

So let's speculate...

 

What if there was a United States Navy Attack Nuclear Submarine in that harbor?

What if a Seal Team, originating from that Submarine, was the elite sniper team that was used to kill the civilians?

What if the Captain of that Nuclear Sub saw a Russian Anti Submarine Warship approaching and did not have time to escape and evade? Will he surface and surrender his submarine?

 

The sniper attacks, if carried out by a US Navy Seal Team, is an act of War. The presence of a US Navy Nuclear Submarine in that harbor, if it was there, is an act of War.

 

Will he surface and surrender his Submarine? What would you do if you were the Captain of that "hypothetical" US Navy Nuclear Submarine?

 

If the Russian ASW detects your presence, and in Shallow Water that is almost a CERTAINTY, then there is not any Deep Water in which to hide that Submarine. In fact if that detection happened then your Ship will be destroyed by Depth Charges if you did not surface, surrender, and be boarded.

 

If you surrender your vessel then that gives Russia a pretext for War.

 

So you have no other alternative but to attack and sink the threat.

 

AND EVEN IF NONE OF THIS SPECULATION IS FACTUAL THEN THAT SUNK ASW GIVES RUSSIA A FALSE FLAG PRETEXT FOR INVADING THE UKRAINE AND GOING TO WAR AGAINST THE USA.

 

And they can sell this story to their population and their population will buy into it as much as the USA population bought into the Iraq and Afghanistan unjustified invasions.

 

Can you connect the dots?

 

 

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:14 | 4519933 ProtectiveFather
ProtectiveFather's picture

Ease up, man. Russia towed the ship from a junk yard and sunk it. It wasn't there as an active part of the fleet and then sunk. Some homework is in order. There is no "false flag pretext."

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:48 | 4520027 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

If ithere is a US Nuclear Sub in that harbor then it is quite trapped.

 

Enjoy it. I am.

 

(I do not believe half of what I read in the Media. I suggest that you do not either.)

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 01:06 | 4520165 Element
Element's picture

Not to mention that the Russians also have permanent passive hydrophone networks and Helix equipped with active dipping sonars, i.e. they'll know if a fish farted near Kersh Strait or Sevastopol, this ain't the movies.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 07:49 | 4520498 supermaxedout
supermaxedout's picture

Maybe in a few weeks Ukraine is burning. Then it will be like Syria except the territories secured by Russia prior to the start of the war.

There will be war because the US has decided it needs to destabilize Europe otherwise Europe is lost for them. The Ukraine is going to serve as an example.  Europe needs the US for protection from the evil Russia. That is going to be the policy. At least this is what they are trying to do. Economically Europe is on a much better path compared to a few years ago - in contrast to the US.  Now the US plays its last card.

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 00:53 | 4520151 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

It does not matter how Ukraine treats it's Russian "speakers". It only matters what Putin says the Ukrainians are doing.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:48 | 4518794 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Crimea and eastern Ukraine are still strategically important.

US wants to be able to shoot down possible Russian missiles before the warheads separate from the launch vehicle (MIRV), hence the need to be on Russia's doorstep (and between Russia and Europe).

Russia wants a buffer, and guaranteed access to a year long warm water port.  Sebastopol, rather than St Petersburg, Arkangelsk, Vladivostok, etc.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:07 | 4518892 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

The US has always wanted a decapitation first strike capability against the USSR,  now

Russia..

This is what this is all about,not a defensive shield,thats for the stragglers in a counter strike

not taken out byn that first strike.

Which is why if pushed, the nukes will be unleashed by Russia.

Realpolitik 101.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:58 | 4519261 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Remember (lol, as if we were there [depending on ages of people on ZH]) when nukes were placed in Turkey and how pissed were the Soviets?

 

Now with Ukraine that border would be shifted even further northwards and deeper.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:07 | 4519303 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

It was those missiles that provoked the Russians and led to the Cuban/October crisis.

In the end, JFK and Khrushchev made a quiet (face-saving) deal that called for the removal of missiles from both places.

But they won't teach you that in most schools.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:21 | 4519615 SameAsItEverWas
SameAsItEverWas's picture

Sheesh. There was nothing quiet about the missiles being removed from Cuba.  And while the composition of U.S. nuclear weapons stored in Turkey changed after Reagan-Gorbachev INF Treaty, we've never had nuclear-tipped missiles in the NATO "bunkers" there.  Well, mebbe they have some ALCMs or gravity bombs stored in bunkers but they'd need to be loaded onto a plane to be used.  Nuclear posture is now purely strategic, and so we got rid of all the deployed tacticals like on surface ships, though they're probably kept somewhere in some stage of partial readiness just in case we go back to the nuclear-war-fighting posture that ended in the 1980s after INF and the unilateral reductions from Bush Sr.  

Here's a primer. The "triad" is CONUS-based USAF Minuteman ICBM W-Xs in Midwest silos which can be on alert at any time, USN boomers carrying Trident D-5 W-88s, etc. which can be on alert at any time, and then there's the off-alert USAF "special weapons" stored in bunkers which would be mostly ALCMs (Ws) and gravity bombs (Bs) or what-have-yous for our nuclear-capable bombers and fighter-bombers.

Bush Sr. recalled all surface-ship-based USN nukes to shore depots leaving just the ICBMs on our boomers--not even a big aircraft carrier can have any nuclear-tipped weapons on board.  Way before that, the Dr. Strangelove-style Operation Chrome Dome of B-52s on constant alert ended in late 1960s after Thule, Greenland crash on heels of Palomares.

Turkey could have USAF weapons and/or USN weapons in land bunkers under NATO flags, but they're not launch ready unless you take the time to load them onto airplanes or ships.  So scratch the first-strike fear.

Russkies are afraid of our forward-based radars on their borders which could eventually be hooked up to missile interceptors using kinetic anti-missile defense systems to negate THEIR land-based ICBM first-strike capability.

Bottom line is that there are no launch-ready missiles with nukes at NATO bases anywhere.  Forward-stored weapons, sure, but the only first-strike capability we have outside of our Midwest silos would be the Navy boomers with MIRV'd Trident D-5 missiles and the W-88.

Fun fact not many know is that there's only one country who uses our nuclear weapons under their own go-codes and that's the U.K. per the special relationship we have with them.  While NATO troops might be guarding our off-shore weapons in NATO bunkers, NATO doesn't have the go-codes to activate them.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:16 | 4519947 Dapper Dan
Dapper Dan's picture

S.A.I.E.W

You are in so much trouble!!!!

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:32 | 4519982 hunglow
hunglow's picture

Not even on a cross country flight to Louisiana?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 01:30 | 4520199 Element
Element's picture

Keep in mind, that when the Kremlin ordered a Russian Nuclear Alert, in late 2012 things suddenly changed. Have a look at all the readiness and reliability inspections and the changes in command that occurred to US strategic forces right after that. It went on all through 2013. Make no mistake, they have dusted the nuke arsenal and warmed it up again. Russia warned this would occur if they pressed ahead with placing sensors and anti-missile forces close to Russia. Putin said this left Moscow no option but to make sure its missiles would be able to smash their way through any such missile defense, else mutual deterrence could collapse.

They warned the US and NATO for years not to do it.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 01:35 | 4520203 bookwurm
bookwurm's picture

Thanks,tidbits of info like this make it worth wading through the usual commentary, Cheeky Bastard where are you?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 01:45 | 4520217 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

“Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War“ by Prof. Michel Chossudovsky

 

Read through “Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War“ by Prof. Michel Chossudovsky, "a book that cuts through the chaos and deception to show the reader exactly how and why humanity is facing an existential threat. It is a wake-up call that the world is being pushed towards catastrophic conflict." SYRIA is one of the targets to take over (in near future), with the next one is IRAN!!!

This book shows that, incredibly, the same deception that the Western governments and media perpetrated to facilitate the war on Iraq less than a decade ago is now being repeated with Iran. But the real threat to world peace and the future of humanity is not Iran and its non-existent nuclear weapons program – it is the US-led alliance of NATO powers and their Middle East partners, Israel, Turkey and the handful of Gulf Arab monarchs. 

 

The real agenda behind the drive for war is imperialist control of natural resources in a region that possesses some 60 per cent of all known reserves of oil and gas – the lifeblood of the capitalist global economy. Cloaked with the fictitious cover of “war on terror”, “international security” and “humanitarian intervention”, realities are being turned upside down.

 

The agenda for global control of resources is a long-term dynamic that Washington and its NATO allies have had on the drawing board for decades. The nine-year war on Iraq is but one episode of this unfolding scheme of conquest. The NATO-orchestrated regime change in Libya is also part of this military roadmap, which now has Iran in its sights. But this war lust will not stop with Iran. It is about global conquest by Western powers in which ultimately China and Russia are also marked out as future enemies.

 

Disturbingly, the US-led agenda of permanent war has incorporated the doctrine of pre-emptive strikes with all military options, including the deployment of tactical nuclear weapons and a new generation of so-called monster bombs. The imminent military showdown in the Persian Gulf could turn out to be not just a regional explosion of latent conflicts – it may be the trigger for a conflagration between global powers armed with nuclear arsenals capable of unleashing destruction that puts the very future of the planet in the balance.

 

The Western public has a vital task in preventing their governments’ drive for war. Michel Chossudovsky’s book is an essential tool in equipping the public for that task by showing them the truth of what is at stake.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/towards-a-world-war-iii-scenario-the-real-i...

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:12 | 4519329 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

Oh, I sure do remember - and Nikita quickly moved to put missiles on our doorstep - in Cuba.  What seems missing in this discussion is recognition that the U.S. renegged on a gentleman's agreement with Gorbachev that if the Berlin wall came down and Poland and Czecheslovakia were granted independence, NATO would not accept them into the alliance - or place forces there.  Hence, the Ruskies are very interested to keeping NATO out of Ukraine.  The American public seems oblivious.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:16 | 4519346 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Just ask the native Americans how their treaties with Uncle Scam worked out.

Some things never change apparentley.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 21:23 | 4519617 BeansMcGreens
BeansMcGreens's picture

And treaties made as recently as with the building of the Grand Coulee Dam by FDR have Native Americans been screwed.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 01:13 | 4520175 Element
Element's picture

The US had a decapitation capability since the first fully-operational Polaris patrols in 1961, it has not lost that ability since then, (53 years) but they have expanded it greatly since. If they were going to use it, they would have done so, a long time ago, WC. But given the stupidity of NeoCons and the grade of muppet with the 'football', it is all too possible.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:19 | 4519364 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

This is true. That is why Russia built Iskander missile systems. Mobile and easy to hide, taking a fast low approach to targets, it will go off on western anti missile sites minutes before the Russian ICBMs launch. Iskander is not perfect, but it is made to order to form a shield behind which Russian ICBMs can fly. Lets be clear, I grew up in the cold war, and I was in the military during years of the cold war, I know very well what nuclear weapons will do. I think the USA is insane to think that they can first strike Russia's triade of nuclear weapons and avoid losing every major city in the USA. Russia has more than enough city busters, and what are called rubble pounders. 5-6-7 warheads per major city. I don't care how good Missile Defense is, they can't get enough to prevent the end of our world here in USA. The neocons are more insane than Hitler. I am convinced that Putin is a puppy dog compared to Americas aggressive neocon movement.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:43 | 4519458 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

They really do imagine themselves in caverns after the war with fertile babes at a 100:1 ratio to men.  Kubrick nailed it.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 04:00 | 4520330 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Good point Rand, and one of my favorite movies ever!

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 21:39 | 4519676 29.5 hours
29.5 hours's picture

 

"Putin is a puppy dog compared to Americas aggressive neocon movement"

Straight to the point as usual Jacko. The fact that these people combine messianic fervor with no direct living knowledge of defeat.  History has bitch-slapped the Russians so many times, you can count on even lousy Russian leaders being more cautious than these flaming neocons--who seem to be confident that they represent real policy in government.

 

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 01:03 | 4520162 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Who is in the Neocon group in a Congress. I hear the term but never any names.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 02:39 | 4520247 PeakOil
Fri, 03/07/2014 - 03:31 | 4520294 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

War Policy = Project for the New American Century (PNAC)

PNAC = US Foreign Policy

 

"War with Syria Would Fulfill Neoconservative Plan for Middle East Regime Change"

There is great division of opinion regarding potential U.S. military action in Syria. However, one group is ecstatic over President Obama’s endorsement of a military attack on Damascus. These are the Neconservatives who dominated the George W. Bush administration, and who still hold tremendous influence in Washington. An attack on Syria would be one step in fulfilling “stage two” of a longstanding neoconservative plan to bring about regime change throughout the Middle East in three stages: Iraq, Syria and finally Iran.

 

The pattern for this plan has been to wait for an event that can be sold to the world public as justification for military attack, and then to push forward, pressuring the military and government officials to move forward with the next stage of regime change.

 

President Obama is, perhaps unwittingly, fulfilling this plan, conceived in 1996 by an informal organization, the Study Group on a New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000, headed by Richard Pearle and including well-known neo-conservatives, Douglas Feith, Meyrav Wurmser, David Wurmser, Robert Loewenberg, Charles Fairbanks, Jr. and James Colbert. All are connected with organizations favoring right-wing extremist Israeli policies toward Palestinians and other Middle East nations. The Study Group plan, titled “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” was prepared for Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. The “clean break” refers to their advice that Israel break from the 1993 Oslo peace accords. 

 

The 1996 plan explicitly calls for attacks on Iraq, Syria and eventually Iran. It states: "Israel can shape its strategic environment . . . by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions."

 

Many of the same figures carried this plan forward two years later under another rubric, The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) founded by William Kristol and Robert Kagan. In a letter to President Clinton and House Speaker Gingrich in 1998, the members of the PNAC, including Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld and Robert Zoellick called for the removal of Saddam Hussein, carrying out the first stage of the agenda of the “Clean Break” plan. 

 

Once George W. Bush was elected president, many of these figures took up prominent positions within his administration. Following the tragic destruction of the Twin Towers in New York and the attack on the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, the removal of Saddam Hussein became a policy objective for the United States. 

 

The PNAC wrote a letter to President Bush in 2001 stating: “...even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq.”

. . .

http://bit.ly/1aZY5mm

 

-- William O. Beeman is Professor of Anthropology at the University of Minnesota, and Visiting Professor at Stanford University. He has worked in the Middle East for more than 40 years.

 

 

It appears that the PNAC Url has been delisted..

check its left-over here:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Project_for_the_New_American_...

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 03:33 | 4520298 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Any of the ones pushing for amnesty are owned by the NWO and are NeoCons.  McCain, Rubio, Graham, Flake, Cantor, Ryan, Rogers in MI, and many more.  Loads of Democrats are onboard as well.

The only thing that may hold these psychopath's back is hopefully enough in the Pentagon.  I am not optimistic because Obama just changed the head of nuclear weapons Air Force General and the Russians know that.  He is a dual citizen most likely.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:51 | 4518799 knukles
knukles's picture

Or approve the new nat-gas pipeline from KSA, the Emirates, et al., up through Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, "The" Yugo, The Slav, The Croatia, The Whereverthefuck, make agreements with the Georgian terrorists and their buddies everywhere... but then again, the real problem will be tunneling from Italy through the Matterhorn as it might disrupt the High Ski Season at Gstaad.  Or at least waive the EPA studies for Zurich's Banhoffestrasse as the vaults under the sidewalks are said to be stuffed full other people's gold, giving a whole new meaning to pavement.  Another executive order would be nice.

All obie's gotta do is approve it.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:57 | 4519250 Frank N. Beans
Frank N. Beans's picture

the gas must be allowed to pass

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 07:02 | 4520457 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture
Let ‘Em Rip Then
Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:40 | 4519445 BASTERDO
BASTERDO's picture

I think the pipeline plan is from Turkey under the black sea and linking up with the Ukraine pipeline system. That way they don't need tunnels and could explain the present situation.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 21:19 | 4519593 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

Two Pipelines: one pipeline 'Nord Stream' completed in 2011, is beneath the Baltic sea linking Russia and Germany already, and the South Stream beneath the Black sea will be on-line in 2015. European's gets ~ 33% of natgas from Russia

ref:    http://atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-02-050314.html

Ps. as Pepe says implicitely at the end of this piece:  it's all about Eurasia Hegemony between China & Russia v. USSA! 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 02:11 | 4520232 Rock On Roger
Rock On Roger's picture

South Stream is a very large pipe.

It makes Ukraine irrelevant.

http://rt.com/business/eu-gazprom-south-stream-881/

 

Burn gaz bitchez.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:06 | 4518884 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Hell yeah, that passes Obama's common sense meter. " We'll approve Keystone XL so long as its put through the Ukraine. Two problems solved, one stone. What a great leader I am.... Nearly as good as when I killed Bin Laden with my bare hands."

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:17 | 4519350 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

That is vry narrow-minded.  Keystone has nothing.  It is a disaster and has nothing to with this.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:26 | 4519391 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

I think it has everything to do with SUV gas tanks and everything to do with "energy self-sufficient" and everything to do with collapse of any possible pretension that USA ever had.  Because they lost it all.

 

No credibility left,  No finance left that is not Mafia; no credible industry. no credible politicians,  ONLY slave culture evolving. No education. No nutirition, no morality,  NOT one moral credible stance.

 

And now we will see the dollar melt that will cripple the whole society ( except the few).

 

I have had enough of this garbage from Washington.  I think the intelligent world, for good or bad, no longer wishes to hear any more from DC.  No longer.  Period. End.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 21:15 | 4519581 in4mayshun
in4mayshun's picture

I can't help but think that beyond all the theatrics and saber rattling, a Rothchild descendent is controlling both the US and Russia.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:30 | 4519976 LMAOLORI
Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:43 | 4518768 Max Damage
Max Damage's picture

Common sense from Russia. Bullshit and lies from the west. Nothing else to say

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:46 | 4518787 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Kissinger and Moscow Times on (basically) the same page, it must be freezing in Hell right now...

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:05 | 4518876 Tradehard
Tradehard's picture

Useful idiot!

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:08 | 4518902 Kayman
Kayman's picture

"Useful idiot!"

Are you referring to Obama or Kerry ?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:29 | 4518986 Bioscale
Bioscale's picture

He was introducing himself.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:03 | 4519742 TheInfoman
TheInfoman's picture

No.  In that case it would have been "useless idiot".

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:31 | 4519824 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

people love "cake walk"
until cake walk on them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1TpLWiCcno\
this thing has already blown up in everybody's face.
truth? God help us all if we get that.

This thing couldn't be any worse done if it was scripted....which unfortunately it is not.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 02:00 | 4520224 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

This does feel and smell like a push toward war with Russia. Obama's hubris keeps on going, and he has now whipped the EU into line. Or, rather, TPTB behind him have done so.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:08 | 4519099 ZH Snob
ZH Snob's picture

looks like there will be an economic war first.  obamba has signed on for sanctions against russia.  they have already said if this happens they will sell all their USTNs, not pay american banker debt and encourage allies to do the same.  that could easily total half a trillion to start...and the dollar could easily go to 50...and lower.

surprised tyler has not made a post on this development as it applies directly to the death of the dollar.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:15 | 4519332 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

bring it on. About time someone did.  Hey ho USA USA USA  F YOU

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:22 | 4519798 agent default
agent default's picture

If the Dollar goes to 50 I want to see what will happen to the Euro.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 02:25 | 4520236 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

If the US forces the EU to join them in sanctions, then the first, legitimate and powerful retaliation that hurts the US (USD!), is to demand payment in Gold for EU deliveries. If they wanted to really rub salt into the wound, they'd accept Yuan, and Reals. India can pay in gold, since they got so much of it, and tow the US line anyway.

It attacks the petro-Dollar at its heart. Plus you have driven a wedge between the EU (that still gets its oil and gas) and the US.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 03:37 | 4520303 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Dr. Jim Willie - Ukraine is the Dollar's Waterloo

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1394139780.php

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:24 | 4519153 holmes
holmes's picture

Seems reasonable to me.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:53 | 4519248 Thucydides
Thucydides's picture

Does this mean Ann-Margret's not coming?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:10 | 4519320 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

Yup sso you do USA USA USA

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:55 | 4519503 j0nx
j0nx's picture

So in other words democracy - as long as it's OUR brand of democracy. Sounds familiar.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:14 | 4519938 hunglow
hunglow's picture

"It has enough territory already."

 

Tell that to Fidel.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 03:15 | 4520276 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Ukraine is the US Dollar's Waterloo

Dr. Jim Willie on why the end game is near. Putin aptly calls the Anglo-Americans as Mutants.

LOL!  I had not heard that one!

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1394139780.php

Here is another video on why the F-35 fight is such a piece of crap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPqbN7OooRg

I post this because Amerikans better get of the war wagon because it will be the final straw in the USSA.  teh weapons systems are old or fake junk like the F-35.  Just typical scam stuff like Washington DC is a total scam.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 03:43 | 4520310 Ondoron
Ondoron's picture

First of all, I have to say I am German - I take a German perspective.

The Germans are pro Putin! They predominantly understand the Russian legitimate interests, since they know the Russian history quite well. The polls over here are all manipulated - when the newspaper "Der Tagesspiegel" had an online poll where 78% of the participants were pro Putin removed the poll immediately, since the German mass media are busy trying to manipulate the population to be pro "action" against Russia - whatever it means... 

 

Marc Faber predicts a World War to outbreak within the next 10-15 years - sometimes things happen sooner. All Western countries are bankrupt - the US in the front. If you take history books you will find out that such situations always led to war. Germany was broke in 1939 - that Hitler started a war had to do with it! A war would cover up the backgrounds for the bankrupcy of all Western states - the manipulated population would gather behind the respective leaders. Prepare well and do your 11 o'clock shopping...

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 05:25 | 4520398 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Good comment. I find Gerd Schroeder better here than Merkel. The most important partnership in Europe is Germany + Russia and always has been since at least Frederick the Great. Gorbachev's "Commion European Home" is a major threat to the USA which has occupied Europe and unlike the Russians has failed to withdraw.

Why we need new US airbases in Bulgaria and Lithuania and Poland is unclear, don't bases in Turkey, italy, UK, Spain suffice ?

It is as if europe is being colonised and occupied by the US Military-Banker Complex

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 05:59 | 4520419 August
August's picture

A poster remarked on another thread that Russians do not want to fight fellow Slavs.  Actually, when push comes toshove. Russians are perfectly willing to fight Poles and western (i.e. Catholic) Ukrainians. who are regarded as little more than sell-outs to central european cultural forces. As the Serbs would say in regard to Slovenians, "theyare just Austrian wannabe's"

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:36 | 4518731 highly debtful
highly debtful's picture

Not to worry, our fearless European leaders have just imposed a visa ban against Russia. That'll scare Putin away in no time. 

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:37 | 4519005 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

I don't think they were gonna come over for Easter break anyway.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 04:31 | 4520365 Yes We Can. But...
Yes We Can. But Lets Not.'s picture

Isn't Russia a major source of whores for the Euros, and will the supply of ho's be cut?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:36 | 4518734 Occident Mortal
Occident Mortal's picture

The ONLY thing Obama and Kerry can do that would have any negative impact on Russia is to approve Keystone XL.

But they won't.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 23:27 | 4519970 ProtectiveFather
ProtectiveFather's picture

This is the second time I've seen this in the thread. Can someone explain how Keystone XL would hurt Russia? I don't get it.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 08:52 | 4520560 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

I think it is the oil industry equivalent of fonestar.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:36 | 4518735 Bunker Boy
Bunker Boy's picture

This world is broken.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:42 | 4518761 Thought Processor
Thought Processor's picture

 

 

And has been for a while.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:45 | 4518780 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

The PURPOSE of this planet is Chaos, we come here by Choice to learn something at a soul level.  Where we are making mistakes is not learning to Harmonize with the Chaos, love it or hate it Violence is the way of this planet.  Not one human eats without an act of violence being committed [vegetarians/vegans] included, the sooner we come to peace with that and learn to better control it the better off we will be.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:49 | 4518801 Thought Processor
Thought Processor's picture

 

 

That was perhaps a little deeper than most here are used to.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:40 | 4519014 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

What if I only eat fruit?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:47 | 4519034 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

Can't live on just fruit though :)

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 07:03 | 4520458 beaglebog
beaglebog's picture

He can if he's a fruit-fly.

 

Who's to say that he isn't?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:05 | 4519074 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Then you're eating a tree's fetus, alive. You sick bastard

@ Nemo: It is my understanding that you could live quite long while eating nothing but fruit (indefinitely even if you had access to a decent variety); at the very least you could maintain your health a lot longer than if all you had access to was frankencorn and it's fructosey derivatives.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:14 | 4519120 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

True to the degree that you would have to live in a climate where you can grow apple and oranges at the same time, not quite reasonable, and you would still have some serious nutrient deficencies, truly we are meant to be omnivores.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:37 | 4519199 new game
new game's picture

low hanging fruit :)

cherry pick :)

seriously, folks, he are violent. it is survival - kill(neatly wrapped chicken, ah never mind the machine that husked the head right on off) or be killed(the chicken pecked you to death with anoth 100 helping- you got too drunk and passed out in the coop)...

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:11 | 4519322 old naughty
old naughty's picture

"can't live just on fruit though."

Sun-eating.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:59 | 4519522 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

So, it all comes down to the pineal gland. Hunter S. Thompson figured this out a long time ago.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 22:06 | 4519755 old naughty
Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:32 | 4519185 A82EBA
A82EBA's picture

lol

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:18 | 4519353 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Even fruit meets a violent end.  See Gallagher.  That fucking murderer.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:48 | 4519040 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

True I agree, but this is Fight Club, and all I can do is lay out the seeds, it is up to the individual to sow them or not, otherwise I am violating their Free Will, and sadly 99.9% of the pop has such a misunderstanding of what The Law of Free Will really means......

 

Be Well

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:15 | 4519123 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

The law of free will?

What a croc, let me see if I can subvert that.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:05 | 4518878 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

Yes. But my vegetables are killed under humane conditions.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:56 | 4519067 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

So are my chickens I raise for eggs and meat.  That for me is the best way to be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:45 | 4519225 Crash Overide
Crash Overide's picture

The Secret Life of Plants?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGl4btrsiHk

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:07 | 4518896 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

You mean we make a conscious decision to be born?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:50 | 4519049 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

Yes, riddle me this does our measly 80 years really mean ANYTHING on a planet that is 4.4+ Billion years old??  How long would we humans have to live to truly hit any form of [dare I say] enlightenment - 100yrs, 200, 500?  Just things to ponder.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:37 | 4519426 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Oh, much longer.

Some say we're older than 4.4+ Billion years old (Earth+ are created for us...)

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 02:15 | 4520234 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

I don't really know where to begin. You're assuming there is some significance in the value 4.4+ billion. You're aassuming there is some significance in the value 80. You're assuming enlightment is some absolute state. We humans make the mistake that our fate is any different than a mosquito, or beetle, or mouse, or hamster, or squirrel, or cow, or elephant or chimpanzee, or dolphin, or whaile. All these are alive and consious beings with their own internal view of reality. We have no special place in the genera of living beings, we think we do, but so may a mosquito in its own way.

I'd love to know how you arrive at the conclusion that we were consious before being born. As far as ideas, that one is right out there. I'm always flummoxed why we just can't conceive of the simplest possibility, that nothing happened before and nothing will happen after. We are indeed a funny species. We always have to complicate stuff with our imaginations.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 06:21 | 4520432 August
August's picture

If one is fortunate and attentive, 30 years should do the trick.

I mean, really, how many times does an attentive being have to do the same shit, over and over again?

Unless you have children, of course.

Mon, 03/10/2014 - 07:46 | 4520799 Hephaestus
Hephaestus's picture

dupe

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:09 | 4518904 Hephaestus
Hephaestus's picture

You sound like you just might know what the little eye over the pyramid means. Funny how easy it is to spot.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:46 | 4519031 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

I'm a few steps beyond even that, but we each must find our own way there.  There are many distractions along the way to pull you from the path if you let them.  Remember one thing...This is just a Game.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:09 | 4519109 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Keep your 'Glass Beads' Hesse: It's a TEST

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:26 | 4519163 Eahudimac
Eahudimac's picture

You are dead on Nemo. 

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:13 | 4519326 livid levity
livid levity's picture

If it is a game then the point would be to win...that's the way games work.  Even if you're a big fat cheater!
Your world view is...um, crazy:)  And crazy is not a game it is a lack and of truthful perception, which is a choice.

Which brings us back to the ultimate question: What is truth? 
If it doesn't exist then we can have no comprehension of what it is, but since I have a comprehension of what truth is it must exist.  There are just some "things you can't not know"...Natural Law for instance.  Ooooo, hot button!
This is fun just like being back in Philosophy 101

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:56 | 4519066 giggler321
giggler321's picture

Very true when you consider everything is covered with microbes which are living.  However I'd argue that at least the Veggies are trying by not eating they are better controlling it which is more at peace than accepting shit and living in it.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:21 | 4519252 livid levity
livid levity's picture

Purpose implies order and direction, chaos implies dissarray and non-purpose. 
How is it we arrived here by "choice"?  I'd contend you had little to do with your entrance into this world/planet.  Maybe you jumped the space time continuum and trip through hyperspace...Harmonize with chaos?  Really?  How do you harmonize with that which you cannot control or even percieve the next event or move?  Sounds like a statist pipe dream.  Love and hate?  How do either of those fit into your model?  And what is violence?  You are very flexible with your word usage, with the only definition given as your capitalizing the first letter, somehow giving each word authority.  Perhaps you could give us the name of an author and/or dietician (apparently) to set us straight about our purpose...or is it the planets purpose...or is it Chaos?  What???!!!  I like mangos...

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:58 | 4519266 blindman
blindman's picture

come to peace with "essential" violence,
why bother?
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=RDgC0GWKh26jU&v=c3IHscrJB0I
.
how about you just eat us and call it communion?
anyway poems^tm.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 04:16 | 4520351 Andy Lewis
Andy Lewis's picture

Ommmmmmmmmmmmm.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 06:09 | 4520423 August
August's picture

If you use more than 5% of your brain, you don't want to be on Earth.

- Rip Torn

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:52 | 4518816 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

The world is a broken record. We revisit the same shit over and over and never learn from it.

The Bible and Battlestar Galactica agree on one thing: All of this has happened before and will happen again.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 18:03 | 4518864 BringOnTheAsteroid
BringOnTheAsteroid's picture

That is not particularly insightful by either Battlestar Gallactica or the bible.

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 20:21 | 4519371 old naughty
old naughty's picture

You are buying too much into the Prince of Darkness (3 episode-series in Battlestar) "croc".

Some say we are moving (living) backward;

so try forward.

L I V E

see, simple. You wipe out e v i l.

"Life was never meant to be a struggle..."

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:01 | 4519081 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

McM! Good to see you posting again,  despite the gloomy subject. 

It's no secret that I hate all wars - using violence as a solution to complex problems is abhorrent and insane to me - so I completely understand the disillusionment of those who are against the Russian moves, but, and this is a big but, I have no qualms about bringing justice to criminals (convicted criminals at that) currently running the regime in Kiev using titles of office to which they were never elected to by their people. These neonazis murdered their own supporters and policemen to be where they are today, they have clearly shown themselves to be the kind of nutjobs who start wars and ethnic genocide ostracising millions of their own russian speaking Ukraineans with their first legislation to outlaw speaking in russian and contacting known terrorists to fight against Russia. 

There are other issues at work of course, energy and ME politics threading through the mosaic, but if they all end up in jail or a ditch, it'd be a good day for humanity.  I only hope they don't end up anywhere near me as troublesome refugees preaching their brand of insanity when this is all over. 

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:38 | 4519200 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Justice!  The reason FACTS, context, and perspective are all important!

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 19:08 | 4519108 Joenobody12
Joenobody12's picture

This world is broken by dictator Obumpa and his masters the bankers. Everytime I saw a headline about him talking I want to slap him in the face. I am so very happy Putin is doing it. 

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:37 | 4518737 Theta_Burn
Theta_Burn's picture

Seems clear enough.

Any word on Nulands thoughts on this?

Thu, 03/06/2014 - 17:46 | 4518786 highly debtful
highly debtful's picture

Living across the pond, I'll admit I don't know much about this Nuland character. Can somebody here enlighten me on the subject? 

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