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JPMorgan's Biggest Concern Is That Bitcoin Will Succeed

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Via JPMorgan CIO Michael Cembalest,

After digesting all the hyperbole and the pessimism, my biggest concern is not that Bitcoin will fail, but that it or one of its many virtual currency competitors will one day succeed.

In the extreme, Bitcoin may lead to economic activity moving from the regulated economy to the underground “shadow” economy (after all, one of its primary selling points lay in its inability to be traced), even if some Bitcoin recipients faithfully declare it as income.

If this were to happen, the tax burden would fall disproportionately on the regulated economy that remains, creating a lot of unwelcome distortions.

 

Perhaps this is why there is a clear inverse relationship between the size of a country’s shadow economy and its wealth per capita. In other words, no one likes paying taxes, but when no one actually does pay them, everyone suffers.

Libertarianism has its limits.

* * *

Full note from JPM's Cembalest link

 

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Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:09 | 4523805 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

shadow economies grow because of price fixing skimming fascist maggots like jpm

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:14 | 4523825 CH1
CH1's picture

LOL... what a correlation: Taxes make us properous!

Yeah, sure....

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:15 | 4523830 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Taxes make THEM prosperous.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:22 | 4523860 CH1
CH1's picture

Precisely!

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:31 | 4523879 vie
vie's picture

Income taxes go to pay the interest on the debt owed to the Federal Reserve for using their fiat currency.  Who do you think has a large stake in the privately controlled "Federal" "Reserve"?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:38 | 4523901 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Tyler is really sticking it to the peanut gallery today.  First putting them in the uncomfortable position of being on the side of the Fed, now JPM.

I guess we got someone who is willing to actually consider and evaluate something genuinely new.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:50 | 4523930 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Yes because "when it becomes serious, you have to tell the truth".

For some reason i thought I heard it differently. 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:54 | 4523940 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Is JPM just figuring this out now?  fonestar still remembers his first time firing up the QT client and transfering Bitcoin around, lightbulbs started flashing and thought, "wow, fonestar has hit paydirt!!".

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:03 | 4523970 The Vineyard
The Vineyard's picture

Bitcoin will do nothing.  They flew too close to the sun.  Bastards.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:08 | 4524100 philipat
philipat's picture

It's comforting to know that, after MtGox, Bitcoin can be stollen at will with no trace and no recourse. Yes, I know, by design, transactions are irreversible. That gives me even more comfort. Sounds just like Fiat, but at least that has a serial number?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 03:36 | 4524431 Scarlett
Scarlett's picture

Please remain uniformed about bitcoin.  Thank you.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 06:49 | 4524534 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Uniformed in a Members Only jacket. Thank you.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 08:38 | 4524623 tradewithdave
tradewithdave's picture

I resemble that remark... tacitly speaking. 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 16:52 | 4525538 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Oligarch banker dictionary:
"shadow economy" = " free market "
" regulated economy " = " pyramid wealth transfer scheme "

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:25 | 4525652 EscapingProgress
EscapingProgress's picture

This JPM banker is the same asshole who told everyone that ice cream causes polio. Now liberty causes economic ruin? First he tries to ruin ice cream, and now he is trying to ruin liberty. What a miser!

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 20:31 | 4526299 wallstreetapost...
wallstreetaposteriori's picture

Fonestar loves the cock.... how is that mark of the biteast coming?  Dildo straped to the forehead and ready to go?

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:31 | 4529144 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

His comment is 100% informed so your rebuttal is by definition the actual wave of ignorance.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:57 | 4524123 Jadr
Jadr's picture

Can the Tylers ban this tool's new account already?  Every thread a retarded comment and pimping of a shitty blog.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 03:37 | 4524432 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Of course not, they kill the good posters here instead.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:07 | 4524838 fonestar
fonestar's picture

That's not true.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:44 | 4525883 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

That you are still posting is evidence enough.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 05:08 | 4524486 CultiVader
CultiVader's picture

Looked at your blog because the spamming worked. Sucks for me.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:49 | 4524097 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

 

 

JPM is not really worried at all...

They know their gov't compadres will see to it...

That bitcoin fails.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:08 | 4524841 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Haha... you seriously think JPM, Fed, BOE... any of them can do anything about Bitcoin?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:32 | 4524893 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

yes, I do. As ive said before, I wish you bit coiners luck, but ill sit this one out. There are trillions slushing around in the forex markets. if a small % of that was directed towards bitcoin, one or two TBTF firms could completely take over the market, quietly scoop a bunch of them up, then dump them all at once, driving the price down, rinse and repeat. All they have to do is make it look too volatile for people to trust it as a form of currency. And bitcoin is a central authorities wet dream. Any kind of all digital currency that exists when the feds can and do see and record everything that goes on internet, if they care to, that will include bitcoin. Jumping on to something that is all digital, in a time when we learn, almost daily, about a new way we are being tracked and recorded online, and thinking somehow your bitcoins are somehow still secure, is incredibly niave and childish. The idea that you are throwing a wrench into the system with this 'cryptocurrency' business is laughable.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:36 | 4525023 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Nonsense.  There is no way for JPM or anyone else to quietly "scoop up" a critical amount of BTC.  Your arguments just show how little you understand about Bitcoin as a currency or technology.  Bitcoin is an anarchist's wet dream, not an authorities wet dream and JPM knows that.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:37 | 4525678 Bioscale
Bioscale's picture

I dream gold, sorry.

I would not found any real person that would exchange anything real for bitcoin if I drive my car 4 hours in any direction.

Here bitcoin does not exist. What is it good for?

This world speaks cash and gold.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:48 | 4525888 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Wait, I thought the transactions were completely anonymous..

 

So now you are changing your fucking story. It's so easy to run circles around you mental midgets...

 

Additionally, seeing as how I was the first Anarcho-Capitalist to frequent this site, I would like to say that no in fact a digitally trackable number is not my wet dream for anything other than a con-game that works to track all transactions without the people actually realizing it, because they actually think their computers are secured and untracable. I can asure you quite the opposite is true. Unless you don't think I can back-tace your location and find out whoe exactly you really are Phony.

 

 

Wed, 05/07/2014 - 14:00 | 4736746 Jadr
Jadr's picture

That's a BS comment.  I've been registered longer than you have and had been reading for much longer.  You aren't the first anarcho-capitalist to come to this site.  I actually learned about this site from a group of anarcho capitalists on a different forum and they had been on the site for far longer than I have.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:29 | 4529141 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Nonsense on you: you can't pre-emptively block purchasing of bitcoin by JPM agents nor can you stop NSA servers from being bitcoin miners. They win, you lose.

This is their game, you aren't ever going to win it.

Gold & silver - real money - it's everywhere you want to be.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:17 | 4524986 Jonas Parker
Jonas Parker's picture

Bitcoin - shitcoin... me, I'll just keep on stackin'!

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:37 | 4525025 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Like many North American males you like to wear your ignorance and stupidity as a badge of honour.  Sorry to be the one that has to tell you it won't get you anywhere in this new world.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 23:37 | 4526808 Lionhearted
Lionhearted's picture

They cracked MtGox.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 05:11 | 4524489 nelsonmandella
nelsonmandella's picture

ITS DIGITAL GOLD !! RUSSIA LOVE IT / CHINA LOVE IT !   

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 05:11 | 4524490 nelsonmandella
nelsonmandella's picture

ITS DIGITAL GOLD !! RUSSIA LOVE IT / CHINA LOVE IT !   

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:26 | 4524744 css1971
css1971's picture

How many days did it take you to download the blockchain?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:09 | 4524845 FinalEvent
FinalEvent's picture

Uhm,... none.

Multibit for linux or windows

Android wallet for samsung.

All do not require download of blockchain.

 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:51 | 4525906 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Except Fonestar was advocating downloading and storing it on an external device, which is who he was talking to. 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:09 | 4524846 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Don't remember but that's only because fonestar wanted the regular QT client.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:46 | 4524911 dontknowcrapabo...
dontknowcrapabouteconomy's picture

Bitcoins bitches!

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:40 | 4525029 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Bitcoin, recommended by cryptozoologists everywhere.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:29 | 4525293 dontknowcrapabo...
dontknowcrapabouteconomy's picture

Cryptocurrency is the future.

You may disagree, but get the hell out of my way.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:52 | 4525913 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Incorrect, ten minutes from now is the future. Tommorrow is the future. Bitcoin is a scam from a guy that used to work for the government. 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 22:21 | 4526641 fonestar
fonestar's picture

The entire internet is ex-gov technology dipshit.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:27 | 4529133 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

You don't have a way to get out of: the grid's going down and bitcoin won't work without a grid.

Gold does. Silver does. Silver & gold are the future, bitcoin is done like dinner.

Just zero calories!

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:55 | 4523942 A L I E N
A L I E N's picture

"... selling points lay in its inability to be traced"

Obviously this guy knows nothing about bitcoin...

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:59 | 4524130 itchy166
itchy166's picture

And obviously your knowledge of Bitcoin is limited.  Transactions in Bitcoin cant be taxed, because despite the fact transactions are registered in the blockchain, they can't be linked to a user.  (unless you are really sloppy).... They also can not be linked to a "place"...

Also, there are many easy ways to transfer money using Bitcoin that AREN'T registered on the Blockchain......

 

 

 

 

 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:11 | 4524155 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Yes!  A light bulb just went on.  Very good, plus mucho.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:34 | 4524226 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

ooooh wow what a fucking evolutionary idea

i can escape the blockchain

which was supposedly created to escape the taxman

who was supposedly imposed to maintain freedom

which was supposedly won to escape the taxman

who was supposedly created so the king would be willing to release me from the block & chains

wow i'm free!

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 01:13 | 4524289 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

The blockchain was created to protect us from forgeries and double-spends while receiving bitcoins.

It is data external to the blockchain that decreases users' anonymity.  

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 02:09 | 4524355 runningman18
runningman18's picture

The"blockchain" is the perfect tracking mechanism.  All tranactions required to be kept on record so that no dual trades of the same bitcoin can be administered?  What horse shit.  The block chain creates the perfect rationalization for total surveillance of global trade.  You think you are anonymous?  Not a chance.  The blockchain leaves a perfect IP trail, and any government element that wants to track you, can track you.  Bitcoin is an elitist ploy; a soft sell of digitized global currency, and the the elites are trying to press the cultists to follow their lead despite the obvious failings of the cryptocurrency system. 

Mt. Gox proved the inherent weakness of the cryptocurrency fantasy.  Only fools continue to buy into a ponzi scheme after it has been opnely exposed as fraudulent theft.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 02:29 | 4524374 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

"Perfect IP trail" since no IP address is stored in the blockchain...

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 02:42 | 4524387 philipat
philipat's picture

So why is it not possible, with the wonderful integroty of of the blockchain, to trace and prevent fraud, such as with MtGox? Yes, yes, I know that transactions are "Irriversible by Design". That makes me feel REALLY comfortable.

I guess it's like the old adage that "The best way to rob a Bank is to own onw", like JPM. In this case, it applies to Bitcoin Excahnges??

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 02:52 | 4524397 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Individuals who traded on Mt.Gox transfered bitcoins to Mt.Gox addresses that only Mt.Gox had the keys for.  If you don't hold it you don't own it. Goldbugs can get goxxed, too. This is the weakness using centralized 3rd parties like Mt.Gox.  Some Gox BTC are on the move and we are following developments very closely.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:07 | 4524707 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Individuals who traded on Mt.Gox transfered bitcoins to Mt.Gox addresses that only Mt.Gox had the keys for.  If you don't hold it you don't own it.

 

With the NSA possibly having backdoors on all computers, you don't own shit. It doesn't mean the NSA can take your bitcoins, but they can shutdown your nifty digital wallet making your digital currency static and unusable.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:41 | 4524773 DblAjent
DblAjent's picture

They can't shut down jump drives or cold wallet storages, but nice try.

And there are services such as tumblers on the onion which can make tracing the blockchain to a particular owner very difficult to trace. Why do folks argue against things about which they know very little?

Get informed, and then make an informed decision instead of taking ignorant pot shots.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:23 | 4525271 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Because they aren't interested in logic.  They have decided beforehand they don't like Bitcoin because they don't understand Bitcoin.  Then they work backwards in search of pathetic arguements to support their original biases.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:58 | 4525927 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

No it's because any time you connect to a network you leave a trail, it doesn't matter if your protocol itself can not be cracked, they don't even care about that, they can simply access your hardware and do what they wish. All hardware since 2005 has had back doors built into it by law so that the governments can use their intelligence agencies to keep track of dissidents online. FFS you children know so little about the internet. 

 

The internet has not been a safe place for almost a decade now, but here you are thinking no one can fucking touch you. 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 20:32 | 4526309 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

Here is where we do not throw in the towel and give up on online privacy and security. Here we take a stand.  Work being done to secure bitcoin private keys will eventually filter down to increase everybody's security online, whether they know it or not. 

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:25 | 4529128 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Apparently, yes they can. They have USB drives that look normal but actually a) snoop and b) inject code

I'd notice since I'm using Linux and it would immediately be rejected but a windoze virOS user wouldn't know the difference.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:23 | 4529126 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Snowden & Binney have made it clear the data's already tracked & associated before the blockchain entry is even made.

It's a done deal, fully exposed.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:10 | 4524711 itchy166
itchy166's picture

No, using your bank/debit/credit card is the perfect tracking mechanism - and it is the mechanism that most people use.  Why would the government/banks/elitists create Bitcoin, when the banks are already tracking everything.  Look at your bank statement, it tracks who, when, where, and how much...

The blockchain doesnt track who, or where...

The arguement that you could use cash is valid - right up to the point you hit 5 digits.  Once you start moving $10000 around, good luck.

Bitcoin is the ultimate elite killer, it stops their skimming, stops their collection of interest, stops their collecting the benefits of inflation, makes taxation difficult to impossible, and will eventually kill the fractional reserve system...

 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:00 | 4525935 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Dude, the guy that invented it used to work for the government writing encryption and tracking software. Think about what you are saying first...

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:23 | 4529124 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Bitcoin is pure skim. It's the tool made by the elites. The day will come when no one gives you anything for bitcoins and before that the day will come when you spend bitcoins to get things and nothing is given so you are empty.

With digital dollars I at least take them all at once and never use the card for the ATM again, I just use the cash. I'm prepared for the day the ATM gives no cash & I get no pay despite what the numbers say.

Prepared. I have stockloads of tangibles for that day.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:17 | 4524726 itchy166
itchy166's picture

Comparing an exchange to the currency that said exchange holds is incongruous.  What about all the gold that "disappeared" from MF Global? So gold is a Ponzi too?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:01 | 4525943 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Yes, the paper gold market is a Ponzi. The physical gold market can not be a ponzi as there is only so much gold.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:11 | 4524850 FinalEvent
FinalEvent's picture

I don't know about the rest of the world, but my income tax is paid by my boss.
You could apply the same for bitcoin

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:29 | 4524210 BeanusCountus
BeanusCountus's picture

Off topic here, but speaking of Fed Reserve, did anyone see Greenspan this morning on CNBC? Swore he said at the very end of his half hour something like "and the reason the dollar gets stronger is because we have the most gold". Kernan, Quick and other guy didnt say a word, they cut away and his half hour was done. Anyone else see that today? Couldnt believe my ears, must have missed something. Anyone?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 06:05 | 4524514 Squid-puppets a...
Squid-puppets a-go-go's picture

well, one theory is that the vaults are empty on account of germany only getting 5 tonnes of scrap

another is that gold is gonna be reset so high that the opportunity cost of the US letting go of anything but the dregs is greater than the flak they cop for dragging their feet

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:28 | 4523873 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

The Author has it all wrong.  Look carefully at the scatterplot.  What he calls "Shadow Economy" is actually "% of GDP controlled by the government."  Now the chart makes a lot of sense.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:45 | 4523906 Spigot
Spigot's picture

Precisely. Those on the right sid eof the chart are idiots who believe that government generated numbers are meaningful and so you must be better off...no, really!

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 08:28 | 4524612 Silver Shield
Silver Shield's picture

Cute Hegelian Dialectic BitCONers have going on here.
They complain about the dollar, the Fed and even JP Morgan and offer a worse solution.
This is simply the dollar which is NOTHING backed by VIOLENCE and BitCOiN which is NOTHING backed by NOTHING.
The only REAL solution from these digital distractions of wealth is gold and better yet silver.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:53 | 4524798 Prisoners_dilemna
Prisoners_dilemna's picture

Gold and bitcoin have the same backing.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:32 | 4524892 StillSilence
StillSilence's picture

Except that gold can be used for real life things, similar to every other physical tangible commodity known to man! If there was as much gold as copper it would be used in many many products. Bitcoin, not so much. It's a service, not money.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:03 | 4525569 Mike Hunt III
Mike Hunt III's picture

I have never seen a definition that says money must be tangible or physical or a commodity. Do you have a link?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:45 | 4525698 Bioscale
Bioscale's picture

Do you have a link? Oh no! Man, there were no links just until 90's in the 20. century. But there was gold, oh yeah

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:03 | 4525757 Mike Hunt III
Mike Hunt III's picture

?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:04 | 4525954 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

How about you learn why currencies fail and why Fiat currencies start wars first, and why money is defined the way it is in the Austrian School. 

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:19 | 4529108 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Ya, it's called the library. Go to the section for History. Read every book.

That's it.

Money has atoms, nothing else is money.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:20 | 4529113 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

except atoms. Which is everything. Silver&gold atoms are money because I can use them directly. Bitcoin isn't money because I can only hope someone gives me a tangible thing in return and they may give me nothing. This isn't the case for gold or silver atoms.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:19 | 4525261 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Here's the guy who preaches logic, grammar and rhetoric and then goes on to ban everyone from his YT channel that debunks his own failed "logic".  Seeing what has happened, he then commences to launch a laughable online jihad against Bitcoin.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:17 | 4526012 Exponere Mendaces
Exponere Mendaces's picture

So now JPM is "scared", the newest excuse that Bitcoin is "bad" is tax-evasion?

Keep talking, banker-boy, keep on talking... because every business you've ever dipped a pinky in is completely focused on evading taxes. Funny how their "fears" are really their insecurities being projected right back out.

First its "money laundering", after banks get busted for the same.

Now is "tax evasion" as rich individuals and companies use Ireland/Netherlands loopholes to avoid corporate taxes.

What's the final accusation? Oh, I know! "Bitcoin buys politicians". Because we know that *nobody* does that with dollars...

*cough*

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:12 | 4524000 Au Shucks
Au Shucks's picture

Exacatly.  Moreover, that graph which is used to support this ludacris claim is a measure of the OFFICIAL GDP figures, NOT the totality of the nation's economic activity.  In other words, although the governments of nations with large shadow economies do not report in their GDP numbers the economic activity of their shadow/black market, this certainly does not mean that the economic activity did not happen or have an economic impact on the population! This guy is yet another gov minion trying to sound intelligent whilst presenting, in support of his thesis, a steaming pile of exrement.

Pure propaganda (shocked face :-0) meant for the consumption by the zombie enablers of teh State.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:32 | 4524052 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

I didn't see the chart correctly.  It sure seems like more shadow is better if each dot represents a country.  But then again I just had to correct dountry to country.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 07:26 | 4524565 LongBalls
LongBalls's picture

JPM is so "concerned" that they filed a patent for the creation of a like product. Bitcoin is called desensitized propaganda. The Banks will co-op the idea and end the threat of a bank run forever allowing them to print whatever they want at no inflation consequence.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 15:56 | 4525465 diogeneslaertius
diogeneslaertius's picture

home run, take your bases

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:09 | 4523806 VD
VD's picture

the inverse relationship between an out of control government and an out of control central bank and FREEDOM.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:11 | 4523808 countryboy42
countryboy42's picture

Paging fonehome in 3...2..1

Hey it's fonehome. BTC is going to go up to ....one billion dollars.  muwaghaaaaaaaaaa.

 By the way foney, did you accept my bet?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:11 | 4523812 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Is it me or is this JPM's way of saying "we know it's totally traceable and we can't wait for every transaction to be done this way"?

Cash is the least traceable way of doing business. Must.get.rid.of.cash.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:22 | 4523856 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Cash is not an action only a medium. Face to face direct exchange of tangible items or services is the least traceable way. We could easily do the same type of transaction using gold or silver.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:25 | 4523867 CH1
CH1's picture

Is it me or is this JPM's way of saying "we know it's totally traceable and we can't wait for every transaction to be done this way"?

LOL... it's YOU. That's the opposite of the entire statement.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:33 | 4523877 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I see you must listen to all of their buy recommendations if you take their entire statements at face value. Mad Money is on everyday at 6pm on CNBC. You will love it.

give me a break. show me "JPM's biggest fear is that people will buy gold and ditch the dollar because they are right to do so" and i will take that at face value.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:26 | 4524198 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

really is ridiculous.
cash is trash?
doesn't get anymore "untraceable."

having said that i do find it ironic that JPM is worried about the "shadow economy." Why don't we start with "too big to fail" and go from there.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:50 | 4524929 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

if they said that i would seriously question everything. but for a large number of reasons, I can totally understand why central banks, TBTF banks, stock brokers, money managers, etc hate gold. When you here that it doesnt pay any dividends, you are pretty much hearing "it doesnt pay me any management fees" recommending that people buy some physical gold and keep it in a safe place at home would be the end of all those people.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 09:05 | 4524647 drdolittle
drdolittle's picture

He's using opposite guy principals. Like when GS saysbuy buy buy you're actually supposed to sell, cause that's what they're doing.

Oh, I forgot, bankers are doing God's work and are thus nothing but totally honest

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:38 | 4523902 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

That's the way I read it too.....

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:40 | 4523908 tmosley
tmosley's picture

How do you buy something over the internet with cash?

How do you evade currency controls with cash, absent buying your own narcosub?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:44 | 4523915 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

most of the services that take place around me are done in cash. Half the daycare places around me are nannies getting paid in cash. Plumbers...cash...attorneys...cash...mechanics...cash....electricians...cash etc. etc. etc. i'll buy my toaster on amazon on credit. can't win em all.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:16 | 4524171 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

works great until you no longer can get your hands on cash. Do you get paid in cash? Didn't think so

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 03:17 | 4524416 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

When gov't moves to clamp down on Bitcoin they will stop digital fiat transfers to Coinbase/Exchanges.  If there remains demand for BTC, people will switch use cash/bullion/barter.  If this demand is strong and painful enough, gov't will move to a cashless society.  This is when silver and gold comes in.  Get ahead of the game and choose to only deal with those who accept bullion/barter today.  This YellenBux pumping is nauseating. 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 07:56 | 4524589 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

"works great until you no longer can get your hands on cash. Do you get paid in cash? Didn't think so"

Yeah I thought I mentioned that.

"Must.get.rid.of.cash."

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:13 | 4529091 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

No, you have it all backwards again.

You Fail repeatedly.

When JPM & The Fed want to destroy Bitcoin for good they'll announce it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Bank accounts will be filled with dollars for fiat exchanges. Exchanges will grow like a fungus.

THEN they will all go absent, every account emptied, every btc wallet having been snooped & sniped as well since most bitcoin users are too dumb to secure shit on their devices.

Then bitcoin will be gone, all the funds fiat & btc will be gone, and everyone in bitcoin will be bankrupt and homeless.

Those of us with gold & silver, too smart to be tricked, will not pity you.
You've had ample warning not to go full-retard.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 11:57 | 4524943 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

man you are dense... thats the fucking point he is making. Doing everything with cash is a threat to the system, which is untracable. If you go get 1000 dollars out at the bank when you get paid, and use that to pay your mechanic, babysitter, etc, there is no record of tha transaction taking place. Which means the govt must just hope suh peopleare going to acknoledge the income and pay taxes on it, which doesnt happen, hence the need to get.rid.of.cash. Thats a major reason we are moving towards a cashless society. Bitcoin is part of that. If bitcoin was actually a threat to JPM or the whole fiat ponzi, JPM would not admit that it was a threat, they would just quietly destroy it. And YES, they most certainly could and would do so if they thought it was neccessary

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:11 | 4529084 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

That's what the silver coins are for.

Once the currency collapses we transition to barter + coin.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:29 | 4524213 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

how do you grow a seed with your filthy fucking shekels?

(no matter how you choose to define them)

wake the fuck up dood

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 21:10 | 4529083 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

how about we don't?

How about we buy things in-person from now on? I'd like that. For good.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:15 | 4524166 itchy166
itchy166's picture

Try moving $1million in cash anonymously.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:30 | 4524214 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

well...first you need the million bucks.
second you should look like someone who would have a million bucks.
third...well, a nice suitcase will do.

Everyone is dissin' Coach these days so why don't we start with that first.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:16 | 4523813 One And Only
One And Only's picture

"In other words, no one likes paying taxes, but when no one actually does pay them, everyone suffers"

Before 1913 there was no Federal Income Tax. We were the most prosperous nation in the world boasting the largest middle class ever imagined.

"This emerging industrial economy quickly expanded to meet the new market demands. From 1869 to 1879, the US economy grew at a rate of 6.8% for NNP (GDP minus capital depreciation) and 4.5% for NNP per capita. The economy repeated this period of growth in the 1880s, in which the wealth of the nation grew at an annual rate of 3.8%, while the GDP was also doubled.[19] Economist Milton Friedman states that for the 1880s, "The highest decadal rate [of growth of real reproducible, tangible wealth per head from 1805 to 1950] for periods of about ten years was apparently reached in the eighties with approximately 3.8 percent."[20]

Real wages (adjusting for inflation) rose steadily. Economic historian Clarence D. Long estimates that (in terms of constant 1914 dollars), the average annual incomes of all American nonfarm employees rose from $375 in 1870 to $395 in 1880, $519 in 1890 and $573 in 1900, a gain of 53% in 30 years.[21] Australian historian Peter Shergold confirms the findings of many scholars that the standard of living for industrial workers was higher than in Europe. He compares wages and the standard of living in Pittsburgh with Birmingham, England, one of the richest industrial cities of Europe. He finds that after taking account the cost of living (which was 65% higher in the U.S.), the standard of living of unskilled workers was about the same in the two cities, while skilled workers had about twice a high a standard of living."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

Don't threaten me with a good time.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:18 | 4523842 moonstears
moonstears's picture

"Before 1913 there was no Federal Income Tax. We were the most prosperous nation in the world" Touche'+1

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:45 | 4524251 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

the key year is 1986.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986

no one here probably remembers the name "Leona Helmsely"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leona_Helmsley

gotta love her honesty. "only the little people pay taxes."
she became a billionaire and gave a fortune to her dog i believe.

in any case...she ran head long into this law...not so much because she wasn't paying her taxes but because she wasn't registering her employees with the IRS.

we all have "tax ID's" now.
and "trillion dollar deficits" to show for it.

"and the FBI, the CIA, the NSA..." I mean the list really is a long one here.
Hard to imagine but at one time...using pure fiat money..we had a ten million many Army with gold at 35 bucks an ounce "set."
Now we can barely field one one/hundredth that with gold at 1250 bucks an ounce "and thankful for that."

this is how lethal "printing presses" are.
"touche" indeed...

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:11 | 4523814 Croesus
Croesus's picture

Yeah, right. JPM is concerned about the BTC market...only because they haven't figured out a viable way to fuck with it yet. 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:14 | 4523826 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

Dirty little secrets. Dirty little lies. We got our dirty little fingers in everybody's pie. [/dirty laundry]

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:14 | 4523822 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Aside from the fact that this author needs to jump, JPM's only concern is that the little guy stops paying taxes to fund JPM.  To the extent JPM even pays taxes, they are far outweighed by the money it makes loaning Fed created dollars back to taxpayers at interest, and gambling said dollars in its own casino in which it is the house.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:18 | 4523840 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

In the extreme, Bitcoin may lead to economic activity moving from the regulated economy to the underground “shadow” economy (after all, one of its primary selling points lay in its inability to be traced), even if some Bitcoin recipients faithfully declare it as income.

That is a lie, all transactions are logged in the ledger aka blockchain. The anonymity is in the wallet addresses not being tied to personally identifiable information in some cases, not all.

 

If this were to happen, the tax burden would fall disproportionately on the regulated economy that remains, creating a lot of unwelcome distortions.

Guess you could same about those that have means to use all the tax loopholes in the first place.

 

Perhaps this is why there is a clear inverse relationship between the size of a country’s shadow economy and its wealth per capita. In other words, no one likes paying taxes, but when no one actually does pay them, everyone suffers.

 

No only those that are consumers who are dog trained to consume and have no land or resources to work with. People with land that can produce food who don't give a shit about plastic trinkets do just fine for starters.

Libertarianism has its limits.

So does everything in three dimensional world including one dimensional monetary policy. 

 


Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:20 | 4523852 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

JammiePMorgan could, easily, start their own virtual currency, but who would trust them? No, they need their merkin beard, the Fed to dry sand ass rape the sheeple when JPM so much as lifts their little finger.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:35 | 4523895 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

they don't need to start a new one. they have the dollar already. they just need to get rid of cash.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 02:31 | 4524378 Boxed Merlot
Boxed Merlot's picture

JammiePMorgan could, easily, start their own virtual currency,...

 

 

Could someone show an historical trade ratio between BTCs and Al Gore's carbon credits?  Frankly, I see little difference in the the original ethers of which both these have been conjured up from.  Rumplestiltskin's problem was in trying to take an actual physical material and change it into something of higher value.  Al Gore's ethreal internet is all that's necessary to create wealth now.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:19 | 4524729 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Offthebeach       JammiePMorgan could, easily, start their own virtual currency,...

Good point. To add to that, doesn't JPM have the resources to mine bitcoin and buy them in mass?

How many other multi billion dollar corporations are in the financial position to do the same thing? Apple maybe? Google? Microsoft? Facebook? NSA? Some other Government entity outside the US?

Do they not have the resources?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:23 | 4523859 moonstears
moonstears's picture

They're gonna go with Ripples, bitchez! You got it on the hedge, fellow ZHers!

P.S. I'm not bullshitting you, but it's JMO. DO YOUR OWN DD

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:18 | 4524174 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

You mean they'll USE Ripple to move their filthy fiat around. Now that may be true. Doesn't mean Ripple will go up BTW

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:25 | 4523866 Debtonation
Debtonation's picture

Libertarianism has its limits

No, government needs limits.  If we lived in a free society where commerce is open and free, there would be no need for a shadow economy.  Economic growth would be much higher.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:57 | 4524275 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I sympathize with your thinking but America is proof that trying to limit government is a fool's errand.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:25 | 4523869 DirtyWilly
DirtyWilly's picture

You mispelled suffers in the second to last line.  It's prospers*

Easy mistake.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:28 | 4523870 One And Only
One And Only's picture

And there is no such thing as a "shadow economy".

It is nothing more than citizens protecting their wealth from theft by politicians.

The less theft; the less shadow.

The only reason people hide money is if they think someone will try to steal it.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:27 | 4523872 SpeakerFTD
SpeakerFTD's picture

He could not have drawn a more wrong conclusion.

The reason shadow economies grow and wealth shrinks is corruption.  Taxes are a red herring.  If you have rule of law, the economy will grow regardless of tax policy.

 

 

 

 

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:33 | 4523888 whatthecurtains
whatthecurtains's picture

I'm sorry but did JPM just say "In other words, no one likes paying taxes, but when no one actually does pay them, everyone suffers."

Are you fucking kidding me?  Is this the same JPM that set up that offshore trust fund that the UK got all pissy about?

 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/08/jpmorgan-taxsettlement-idUSL1E...

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:37 | 4523898 fijisailor
fijisailor's picture

I don't know how but peg a virtual currency to PMs and it will take the world by storm.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:46 | 4523922 moonstears
moonstears's picture

XNF "no fiat currency" on Ripple network

Dude, I'm telling you...

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:20 | 4524176 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:03 | 4523965 Vint Slugs
Vint Slugs's picture

Yes, sailor, that's crux of the entire virtual currency concept.  Hugo Salinas Price deals with that, by inference, in a recent (last few days) post that you can probably find with a quick search.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 04:28 | 4524470 Mike Hunt III
Mike Hunt III's picture

Already happened with e-gold. Gov crushed it under their jack boots. Bitcoin seems to be doing fine without metal backing. Why introduce counterparty risk, physical storage, security, transport, armed guards etc.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 20:37 | 4528996 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Doing fine, are you on LSD?

http://flic.kr/p/kyKgtF Bitcoin recently hit $6 and in the past it even dropped to a PENNY in a flashcrash. That's all happening again very soon. Bitcoin is a trap, not a solution.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:39 | 4523905 I Write Code
I Write Code's picture

Gibberish. 

Does Bitcoin issue credit cards, home loans?  That's how retail banks make money.  Does Bitcoin run hedge funds?  Escrow accounts?  Letters of credit?

Most big banks would LOVE to give up their retail accounts. 

What nonsense.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:41 | 4523910 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Western Union and every bank that charges fees for bank wires would like to disagree with you there.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:12 | 4524157 I Write Code
I Write Code's picture

Western Union, yes, Bitcoin could be a threat.

Not so much JPM.

If Bitcoin weren't a pile of crap, JPM could use it same as "Neo Bee" or anyone else, and you can (try) to use offshore banks right now, for this that and the other.  IRS won't like you much, tho.

Regular banks hardly make peanuts from wire transfer fees.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:21 | 4524025 kodachrome
kodachrome's picture

do a quick google for 'neo and bee prospectus'

40 page read, well worth it

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 01:30 | 4524315 TheHound73
TheHound73's picture

In due time.  Patience, grasshopper.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 22:49 | 4523921 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

It's not a "Shadow" Economy.  That sounds so, 'sinister'.  It's the PARALLEL Economy: parallel to the Official Economy.

Parallel Economy = Barter + fiat Cash + Assets + PM + Crypto_Currencies

                             = Decentralized, non-Taxed

                             = Freedom from CBs + Privacy from TPTB

"The (financial) terrorists hate us for our freedom".

"We cannot allow these savage (financial) terrorists to use  WMDs (Weapons of Monetary Destruction) on us."

"The (financial) terrorists are secretive, sneaky and they conspire against good, freedom-loving people"

"If they're not with us, they're against us"

"The (financial) terrorists pray to a different God"

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:02 | 4523945 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Under the current Geopolitical pressures, I believe they fear the BRIC more so. [Brazil, Russia, India and China]

 

I’ll let you media cunts figure out how to whitewash this event.

http://www.bricsforum.org/

I would continue to buy Gold. Transfer your assets. Goldman Sachs is once again lying to the public. But doing God’s work.

 

The BRIC countries – Brazil, Russia, India and China – together make up 42% of the world’s population and hold a combined GDP of 18.486 trillion dollars. According to Goldman Sachs, by 2050 the combined economies of the BRICs could eclipse the combined economies of the current richest countries of the world. With the USA and the European Union markets growing annually at 3-4%, BRIC nations pose a greater opportunity over the next five years with an expected growth rate of 9% or more.

http://www.bricbusinessforum.com/

Davos 2014: World Bank President on China, BRIC Nations

Davos 2014 - BRICS in Midlife Crisis?

 

Bitcoin dead- check

BRIC – work in progress

MINT – upcoming threat

Edit: India is in both BRIC and MINT, If one system fails, the other will absorb wealth.

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:02 | 4523969 mobius8curve
mobius8curve's picture

He who controls the internet controls the virtual currency that will soon be used for buying and selling. We will see a virtual currency rise up out of the ashes of a global currency reset:

Revelation 13:16-18  And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead;  (17)  and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.  (18)  Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and sixty and six.

 

 

 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 00:56 | 4524274 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

The mark could be an invisible digital tatoo that is comprised of flexible nanocircuitry and is tied to virtual currency.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 20:32 | 4528985 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Are you guys dense? Blind?

I've said this a million times.

IT'S YOUR DNA.

Your DNA Is your serial number. You can't remove it because it's the code of life, you die without it.

You are born with your serial number.

http://netbio.com/solutions.html - sells lab-on-a-chip DNA-identification kits to DHS.

US Patent 8,206,974, US Patent 8,018,593. Other patents pending.

"The ability to rapidly identify individuals by DNA fingerprinting and to rapidly identify pathogens by DNA sequence have become urgent national needs, and NetBio's game changing technology is addressing these needs."

Tue, 03/11/2014 - 11:19 | 4531983 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

Many would not comply with doing a dna test before selling.  You can't do them online but you could be forced to scan your wrist for a tatoo or palm for prints before the gate keepers allow you online.  A tatoo could store all your info.  Maybe on the forehead for easier scanning access.  Just trying to make it fit into the whole Mark of the Beast scenario.

Wed, 03/12/2014 - 00:09 | 4537308 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I emplore you to read my prior comment and look for the word "comply" or any word like it.
Not there? No.
You get stabbed & shot if you avoid getting stabbed.
The stab takes your DNA.
That's your identification & if need be first time registration.
No one's going to ask your permission.
NetBio sells this to DHS. DHS bought enough bullets to kill every American, even the children, 3 times over.
Does that sound like they're looking for compliance?

There is no "mark of the beast" scenario. The bible is full of shit.

Once you're stabbed & identified, or shot for avoiding getting stabbed, or off-grid, 2 categories are created. Terrorists & other. You know which one is going to be the terrorists, tagged or not tagged? You get 3 guesses.

Once you are tagged on grid the least of your worries is what you're allowed to buy or sell with you 'mark' (your DNA being on file). Any movement, any food, any water, any peace from beatings or execution, will be at the mercy of overlords. Every movement, every meal, every pause, every interaction will be watched & if there's any doubt of who you are, DNA will verify it. Again, any refusal will lead to immediate execution, and any doubt you have I refer you back to the DHS ammo stockpile.

I can't show you the future like I can see it but I can show you a pile of bullets big enough to kill everyone you'll ever know and yourself is in the hands of DHS, since they admit it, and I can say "don't trust those guys" and I hope that's convincing enough.

Is that really not convincing enough? Really?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 02:30 | 4524373 Tapeworm
Tapeworm's picture

The 666 nonsense always cracks me up.

 What was Six Hundred Sixty six in the contemporary Hebrew? It sure as hell wasn't "666" which is Arabic numbering from a couple of thousand years later.

 Got Anachronism?

+++++++++++++++++++++++

I always wondered how the Romans were able to do such feats of engineering with the astonishingly clumsy Roman Numeration.

----------------------------

some enlightenment here:

http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/roman.html

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 09:07 | 4524628 Boxed Merlot
Boxed Merlot's picture

The 666 nonsense always cracks me up...

 

 

While it's true in a certain sense scripture is applicable throughout the ages, John's cryptic message to fellow believers in the first century was likely practical instructions to take to the hills when the "beast" as Nero was known at the time, came to destroy Jerusalem in 70AD.  This was in direct opposition to the ususal practice of running to walled cities when being attacked by enemy forces.  This Jewish Holocaust, when Rome killed over a million jews and destroyed their capital city and temple wiped out the records maintained therein.  That event has proven to be the watershed experience that has forever changed the complexion of individual human identity.

 

Osama bin laden is as likely to be jewish as Feinstein, Boxer and Ms. Clinton are related to Ishmael.  In fact, the last jewish king stated before He was crucified the point jewish proselytes were twice the children of hell as the originals.  I think history has borne that out to be the case.

 

jmo.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 10:12 | 4524719 css1971
css1971's picture

Hebrew and Arabic are like English and German. They come from the same aramaic root. Though if i remember correctly the 666 thing was just a mistranslation. Just like the virgin birth was a mistranslation.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:19 | 4524993 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

So - "hatched" then?

Fri, 03/07/2014 - 23:17 | 4524014 ed31337
ed31337's picture

Bitcoin, while nice for international transactions, is not the only threat to JPM's business model. Net metering KWH energy credits are another way around the banksters tax. Put some solar panels on your roof, build up KWH credits, and use those KWH's to make food (think hydroponic grow lights), run a 3D printer, recharge an electric car, run all your household appliances, etc. If you can get enough solar power to always keep a net positive KWH balance, you've basically got a spending account that isn't tied to USD. Unless you let them pay you out in USD at the end of the year, you don't even pay income or sales tax!

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